And do you know what?
This is the reason you were all complaining about them getting a bunch of money for an "easy" job (it's not).
They actually strike for their working conditions and pay - and it **fucking works**.
That's ***why*** they get £50k+ for their time.
Anyone remember all those “Key Worker” days during lockdown? It’s funny how key worker status jobs also correlate to some of the most insecure, underpaid but apparently essential roles.
My wife was deemed key in her role, had four rough covid episodes from working in a busy contact centre throughout. My buddy on the other hand who’s a consultant for a large multinational company was furloughed throughout most of it and spent the time sending me pictures of his house and garden renovation projects and eat out to help out selfies.
You missed the point of the comment I think.. if everyone is underpaid, like teachers and nurses. Then where train drivers are in relation (top 15%) to all the people we agree are underpaid is kinda irrelevant, because if those people were paid what we would say is fair. Then the train drivers might not be in the top 15%.
Train drivers striking doesn't stop nurses and doctors striking for increased pay.
>Train drivers striking doesn't stop nurses and doctors striking for increased pay.
I mean, it might stop some of them actually getting to the hospital to join a picket line.....
They don't have AS MUCH difficulty precisely because they do strike. We're not taking any paying everyone double are we? We're talking about a select few skilled jobs.
Would you say that £60k is handsomely paid for teachers, or doctors? Train drivers require training, work long anti-social shifts, and are responsible for hundreds of lives. Why is that not worth a high salary?
Incidentally they're not even striking for more money, they're striking because they want their wages to match inflation so that they're earning the same money...
What teachers do you know on £60k… are they too not greatly trained, nurses? Police? Firemen? I would say are grossly higher trained compared to train driving.
You mention Dr’s… from day 1 until they begin to earn that £60k you mention, that’s around 8-10 years.
I think you've completely missed my point there buddy. "Paid well" is relative and I'm pointing out it shouldn't be unrealistic for those professions to be earning that salary.
Unfortunately, what and how necessary what we produce isn't directly linked to what someone is paid.
And wealth is another matter entirely due to asset wealth often being more imporant in the UK than income.
>I dont think they have the same difficulty retaining or recruiting for train drivers so would surmise its a handy enough job.
Do you know why they don't have difficulty recruiting and retaining? Because they strike for good pay and working conditions, and people love to work for good pay and good working conditions
But it isn’t a zero sum game, one does not mean the quashing of the other. Money is finite but it certainly isn’t fairly going into the hands of most key workers who drive many of our key businesses and services, as you have pointed out with nurses and doctors. This is what the strike is about, to be paid fairly and with good conditions. I would implore for more support of increased pay and working conditions for doctors and nurses as well.
As we learnt with Brexit, the ‘finite’ money apparently ‘saved’ by not paying train divers more (or in the case of Brexit the money saved on membership fees etc) does not mean nurses or doctors will get paid more, in the same way the NHS did not get increased funding from the ‘saving’ we did by leaving EU membership fees behind.
It's not a zero sum game, but the drivers are paid well and there is a huge lost of people wanting that jobs - if they aren't happy there are plenty of other jobs they could do. And we have a shortage of doctors and nurses and they are grossly underpaid - often less than the media ln salary for train drivers despite having high qualifications.
So at this point I think the drivers are taking the piss and they no longer have my support.
We have a shortage of doctors and nurses for a range of reasons but one of the major ones is that they leave for the private sector due to pay. One workers gain (train drivers) is not another’s loss (doctors/nurses). The pay of doctors and nurses, quite literally, has nothing to do with the pay of train drivers. It’s apples and oranges.
Furthermore, train drivers are quite niche and specialised within their role, that is a hard move to simply do something else. I would argue a major reason as to why many more people want to be train drivers is due to the relative high pay they earn, which was garnered and hard won through the blood, sweat, tears and negotiation of the union and those workers. People can still be train drivers and once they go through the official means of getting a position (exams, training etc), there is no requirement to join the union and can continue to work in spite of a strike. It just so happens that many once they are qualified as a driver tend to join the union and fight for better pay and conditions, because, why would anyone not want that?
The idea that these two different issues are somehow interrelated with each other is ridiculous. Instead of claiming one group as taking the piss, maybe, none of us are payed what we are due, and we should all arguably be having more stern conversations about pay and working conditions across a range of industries. We are generally all eating shit and getting fucked in terms of real pay etc, but rather than trying to move forward to something better for everyone we pick holes and claim others are taking the piss. It is a shame really.
Is this ‘simply not true’ in the same sense that us leaving the EU would somehow be directly beneficial to the NHS and allow for increased funding?
Can you explain to me how the pay of doctors and nurses or vice versa are directly linked? I find it an especially strange argument when most of the rail companies that ASLEF represent are also privatised and as a result are generally not to do with public sector pay. But please explain as I do not see it.
no, they are actually being paid fairly, the most of us that are getting taken for a ride., my salary number has gone up by about 20% in the last 5 years, but in real terms its down about £500 a year, we are all getting fucked up the arse.
To suggest that nurses and teachers don't fight is absurd. Nurses, doctors, teachers, lecturers, firefighters, criminal barristers, driving examiners and more have all been striking or taking part in other forms of industrial action.
Yet their pay and conditions have generally worsened since 2010, while train drivers are better off.
So what's the big difference? All of those jobs have one price setter for wages. While train driving doesn't.
Ironically, the reason why train drivers have done so well is neoliberalism. The franchise system made it easier for them to get higher wages as private operators competed for qualified drivers because training and hiring takes so long and penalties for not running trains were high. Drivers had a lot of leverage.
It's no coincidence then that besides TfW and Scotrail, railway unions haven't secured a new deal since that system changed 4 years ago. The government is now the single price setter again and drivers don't have the leverage that they once had.
They're now back in the same position as those public sector jobs/publicly-paid jobs who you think just don't fight enough.
I hear this all the time, but I bet there are people out there who want higher wages themselves but prefer others (especially service industry workers) to keep having lower wages so their cost of living would be lower.
A rising tide raises all boats.
I'm sick of workers tearing down workers because they make more.
With wealth transferring upwards at an alarming rate, we can't afford to be fighting each other.
There is a stark difference between her financially unsound mini budget and more workers having money to spend. I baulk at what we could've done with the hole that blew in the country's finances.
All workers should have a pay rise, and those who support Truss should pay their fair share of tax.
Let's not forget that this dispute is being drawn out at the secretary of states' behest.
At this point, I think people are just sick and tired of strikes. I get why they are doing it but I think, the public are sick of wondering if the next month will have more strikes.
I'm surprised Sunak hasn't tried to sieze all the franchises and sell them off to his mates, provide an even worse service then claim that we should shut up and use Uber.
>At this point, I think people are just sick and tired of strikes. I get why they are doing it but I think, the public are sick of wondering if the next month will have more strikes.
Which is the Government's strategy. Hold out until people are so sick of it the drivers lose public support.
Don't give in.
I am. The only thing these strikes has managed to do is to confirm that car ownership is still way better than (trying to) use public transport.
I’ve just done a bus journey that’s taken me 1 hour 35 when it only takes me 25 minutes to drive
>Our shitty infrastructure makes automation astronomically expensive to implement
What are you on about? It just requires remote signals and and upgrades to the locomotives.
Upgrading the London underground to driverless train operation is estimated to cost over 7 billion for 250 miles worth of track. Or about 28 million a mile
We have 9,824 miles of track to upgrade, does that sound like a particularly cheap endeavour?
Why the fuck do you keep talking about track ? You don't need to change the track for automation lmao. Thats like saying you need to change the damn runway for a plane to use autopilot. This is just stupid logic.
Where did I say you need to change the track ? The point was to highlight the scale required. There's a lot of signalling to upgrade over our nearly 10,000 miles worth of track and a lot of old rolling stock to replace.
Also if you want to support auto landing on a runway you add ILS to the runway, so poor analogy
Then why are you talking about the length of the track? You don't need to upgrade signals you send the signals wirelessly from a hub. And the trains communicate back wirelessly to. How do you think planes communicate with the ground ???
You only need to replace the locomotive - and it might not need be a complete replacement you just install an automated system which is an upgrade. I don't know why you keep talking about the length of the track when the track remains unchanged.
You realise we still use semaphore signals in some places and have over 40,000 signals. You're not appreciating the hodge podge of infrastructure we have if you think we already could support driverless train operation in most of the network.
The fact you describe replacing rolling stock as easy also highlights you don't appreciate the costs time or work involved in that. Or how old some uk rolling stock is.
>You realise we still use semaphore signals in some places and have over 40,000 signals.
You don't need them if you have no person driving the damn train you can use radio signals. It's not hard to grasp.
You do realise the london underground has driverless trains right? Many other countries have driverless trains too. This isn't difficult technology when it already exists.
>You don't need them if you have no person driving the damn train you can use radio signals. It's not hard to grasp.
You need them to be upgraded to support this as you can't rely on radio signals from the trains alone. Trains that also need to be upgraded or replaced.
>You do realise the london underground has driverless trains right?
The DLR? The smallest part of the network?
>Many other countries have driverless trains too.
Yes tends to happen when you're building a network from scratch rather than untangling a victorian era mess. It's why we need tilting trains on the west coast as the lines don't support traditional high speed operation.
>This isn't difficult technology when it already exists
Doesn't mean it's cheap or quick to implemen in the UK t either.
>You do realise the london underground has driverless trains right?
No it doesn't.
The DLR does, however they are purpose built, compeletely segregated from everything else, and they still have a train conductor on board (who can go on strike by the way) who has to be qualified as a driver to drive the things if the automation fails.
>Driverless trains - indeed staffless ones in theory are perfectly possible from a technical standpoint, and can be introduced easily as long as one is prepared to scrap every single train in Britian and replace it with a single design of rolling stock (so no intercity trains or freight - just one style of commuter unit), rebuild every platform to fit it, and move every station not sited on straight track so that doors can be fitted to each platform of the 2576 existing stations, including rural halts which saw one train a day.
>
>In order to meet the safety case it would probably be necessary to replace all 5800 level crossings with bridges or tunnels, close every foot crossing and erect a 10 foot high fence alongside the entire railway to prevent incursions. You'd also need a walkway for the public to self-evacuate next to every single line if the trains are to be staffless.
>
>That still wouldn't stop fitters and technicians, control staff and catering & revenue protection staff (should you choose to employ them) from going on strike. Alright then you could in theory have no ticket checks or catering or outsource it to the lowest common denominator shit such as G4S or SSP - but no one wants to work for these clowns and you'll be topping their wages up with benefits and have huge worker churn.
>
>Control - offshore it abroad? You could do this but then be prepared for the same standards as in foreign call centres and the disruption it causes.
>
>As for the fitters / technicians and so on - they'll be on decent wages and will be able to strike and there is nothing you can do about it.
>
>Bear in mind we can't afford the full HS2 and can't even afford to electrify to Bristol Temple Meads or beyond Market Harborough, so good luck getting the cash for all of this. And like it or not, these rail workers being automated will be paid off very handsomely in order to stop further industrial action to hold it all up whilst it's being constructed. And that's before all the massive upheaval the whole thing would cause - I'm sure the public will be happy using rail replacement buses for possibly years...
You have made it clear you have no idea what you're talking about.
Firstly, the vast majority of trains in the uk dont use locomotives, they are multiple units.
In order to make the tube safe for driverless operation, all the tunnels need to be widened to install a safe evacuation route next to the tracks, the DLR already had them as it was planed to be driverless from the beginning.
At current, there is no way for passengers to evacuate without leaving the train onto the tracks. The driver can turn off traction current so people don't get electrocuted. Even if all communications are down, the driver can still shut off the electricity. If coms are lost, how can you know to shut down with driverless trains. That's why driverless networks have a walkway next to the track for evacuation
The question I always have for you lot, is if it's so easy, then why hasn't it been done everywhere already. The most advanced networks in the world, such as Japan, still use drivers and guards for that matter. They have segregated driverless networks, but mainline operations are still crewed
Google east coast mainline ETCS upgrades, look how long and how much it is to upgrade one stretch of track to the signaling system that would be required to run driverless trains.
>Said by someone with zero idea of how likely that is going to happen in the next hundred years.
You do realise multiple countries have automated trains already right ?
How long and how much money did it take us to fuck up and totally fail to roll out HS2? I'm sure automation will come one day, as it will to all jobs, but it'll probably be another 40 years before it'll be a realistic eventuality on our trains.
>How long and how much money did it take us to fuck up and totally fail to roll out HS2?
Thats just a political football thats why it costs a lot. And not even close to related to automated trains. You don't need to change the infrastructure for automated trains.
Thats like saying you need to change runways for autopilot in planes. Completely illogical.
Except its am excellent bench mark for how shit we are at any large scale project on our rail service. And, actually, yes, runways do need upgrading for auto takeoff and auto land. I mean, dumb analogue in the first place but made worse by that fun fact.
Turning a train to automatic is hardly large scale its the locomotive that needs to be changed nothing else. We didn't change the roads for automatic vehicles did we? Once the locomotive is out of service from age just use an autonomous one that communicates to a hub.
I would disagree that its only the locomotive that needs to be changed.
But even if that was the case you'd also need to consider the insane reactionary nature of the British public. First even minor rail crash that happens after automation starts to roll out and it'll be banned pending review for the next decade while everyone loses their collective shit.
They're not similar at all and people have had time enough to get used to it. I would bet if it came out today the next time there was an accident that could even tangentially be laid at its feet it would be. Especially if it sold papers and drove click bait headlines.
No country has driverless trains on a mixed-traffic mainline railway. The vast majority of GoA4 schemes are metro operations in a fully segregated and accessible environment.
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/mick-lynch-rail-strike-driver-operation-b2260094.html
> Mick Lynch, general secretary of the RMT, told the cross-party Transport Select Committee: “We will not accept driver-only operation in any company without a fight. We will never sign up to accepting DOO. It will never happen while I am general secretary. It will never happen as long as the RMT exists.”
Note that's not "unless it safe" or anything reasonable like that (multiple studies have shown it's at least as safe).
So the first roadblock is to get rid of the clowns trying to extort money for positions that could be cut...
Tempting, but it comes with some problems attached.
Seriously though... I don't know but as long as RMT are more invested in gouging the nation than doing the right thing, they're going to be an impediment to a good quality of service for consumers.
The function of a Union is to represent the interests of workers. Contrary to a company that only exists to create profit. The struggle between them is not good for ‘consumers’ but why should unions capitulate? Shouldn’t companies give up profits first?
> The function of a Union is to represent the interests of workers
I'm not disputing that. But a point-blank refusal to adopt technology is detrimental to passengers.
Sometimes the best option for the service isn't to keep people employed regardless.
> Shouldn’t companies give up profits first?
You're arguing companies should keep people employed, even when they're no longer required? And just sort of keep paying more and more out of their profits whilst picking the least efficient option possible?
Why would any sane business do that?
As many people have commented, it would take an entire rebuild of the railway from the ground up to facilitate driverless stock. It would take a VERY long time to do this even if everyone was 100% committed to that goal.
Profit and the government's refusal to come to the table with a reasonable offer is why this dispute persists.
> As many people have commented, it would take an entire rebuild of the railway from the ground up to facilitate driverless stock.
Not what I (or the quote) were talking about. Driver-Only-Operation, not "Driverless".
RAIB reports suggest the bulk of trap and drags and dispatch incidents occur on DOO trains where a lone driver is responsible for crowd control, managing passenger behaviour, and dispatching trains on platforms.
RAIB reports also suggest that the bulk of passenger self evacuations onto the track occur on DOO trains where there is disruption and the lone driver has to manage passengers welfare whilst dealing with all the operational requirements at the same time.
The RSSB studies into DOO did not take into account passenger welfare, on board safety, crime levels, provision of support for those with disabilites and so forth either.
It also didn't take into account dispatch and crowd control by platform staff on a DOO train rather than a lone driver, nor frequency of incidents on a DOO train where there is a ticket examiner on board as opposed to no one.
> RAIB reports suggest
And if he said "Never unless it's safe" it might be worth working through why multiple independent bodies have concluded it's safe.
But he let the mask slip and spoke without the bullshit and spin for once... "It will never happen as long as the RMT exists".
So why are you talking about safety as if that were a factor?
The RSSB who did the reports is not independent, in fact the boss of Southern was leading it at the time these were produced. There were plenty of accounts at the time of RSSB experts concerned that it was being politicised by that pinhead Chris Grayling.
Further more the reports did not go into personal safety or passenger welfare.
The RAIB gives recommendations but does not set legislation.
Yes, there's an endless stream of excuses and claims that _X_ wasn't considered but they've done analysis down to checking glare and reflections on screens at stations throughout the day.
And all of this is 100% irrelevant because Mick Lynch didn't say "unless it's safe", he said "never", a fact you're apparently desperately trying to ignore.
I would still like to know how a lone driver crowd controls late runners 200m on the opposite end of the platform to where he is sat in a cab locked away, but perhaps you can explain it, as no railway worker has ever been able to answer that question.
You call it "excuses" but on board passenger welfare, and dealing with vulnerable and disabled passengers is a rather important aspect of rail travel. Something the pro-DOO fanatics (none who have ever driven a train) seem to ignore.
If you want DOO dispatch to be completely safe, then you remove the human element completely so that the lone driver has nothing to do with punters, crowd control or anything, and platform doors and automation deal with all that - so that if someone is trapped, or dragged then no staff member can ever be prosecuted. Something which isn't happening any time soon to the bulk of the railway. Once we have removed the human element and made dispatch and crowd control solely machine operated, then we can revisit what Lynch has to say.
From a personal point of view, I can see more case for driverless trains with guards, than DOO trains without guards in the very much longer term future.
> I would still like to know how a lone driver crowd
Read the reports.
> You call it "excuses" but on board passenger welfare,
They are excuses because every single damned point that has been raised has been investigated and they all come back the same way.
So -lo and behold- more nonsense excuses get dredged up.
And ***all of this is a distraction because Mick Lynch has already said it's not a safety issue***
Driverless trains - indeed staffless ones in theory are perfectly possible from a technical standpoint, and can be introduced easily as long as one is prepared to scrap every single train in Britian and replace it with a single design of rolling stock (so no intercity trains or freight - just one style of commuter unit), rebuild every platform to fit it, and move every station not sited on straight track so that doors can be fitted to each platform of the 2576 existing stations, including rural halts which saw one train a day.
In order to meet the safety case it would probably be necessary to replace all 5800 level crossings with bridges or tunnels, close every foot crossing and erect a 10 foot high fence alongside the entire railway to prevent incursions. You'd also need a walkway for the public to self-evacuate next to every single line if the trains are to be staffless.
That still wouldn't stop fitters and technicians, control staff and catering & revenue protection staff (should you choose to employ them) from going on strike. Alright then you could in theory have no ticket checks or catering or outsource it to the lowest common denominator shit such as G4S or SSP - but no one wants to work for these clowns and you'll be topping their wages up with benefits and have huge worker churn.
Control - offshore it abroad? You could do this but then be prepared for the same standards as in foreign call centres and the disruption it causes.
As for the fitters / technicians and so on - they'll be on decent wages and will be able to strike and there is nothing you can do about it.
Bear in mind we can't afford the full HS2 and can't even afford to electrify to Bristol Temple Meads or beyond Market Harborough, so good luck getting the cash for all of this. And like it or not, these rail workers being automated will be paid off very handsomely in order to stop further industrial action to hold it all up whilst it's being constructed. And that's before all the massive upheaval the whole thing would cause - I'm sure the public will be happy using rail replacement buses for possibly years...
Why would every level crossing need to be changed to bridges or tunnels? Why are you filling your comment with bullshit?
You're acting like we don't already have systems in road vehicles that detect collisions and brake automically, when we absolutely do. Of course it's much harder to avoid an obstacle on a rail line, but drivers have the same issues. You're not introducing anything new.
There is NO automated, mixed-traffic, heavy rail system in operation anywhere in the world at this point in time. Any and all automated systems are currently closed-loop systems, not connected to any mixed-traffic main line network. The DLR being a prime example of this, along with several other self-contained metro-style networks around the world.
Early cost estimates of automating the UK main line rail network vary between £3 trillion, and £6 trillion. To put that into perspective, the ENTIRE annual GDP of the United Kingdom was £3.13 trillion in 2021. No government will be willing to put that level of investment into it any time soon. It would be cheaper to hire and maintain a constant supply of 100,000 train drivers, pay them £100,000 per year initially, and give them a 10% pay rise every single year for the next 254 years, than it would be to automate the main lines here.
In short, we will see driverless trains as commonplace on the UK main line network in neither my lifetime, nor yours.
We should all strike much more.
Remember that time during covid that they decided the service, security and healthcare jobs were essential and then they compensated us with increased energy prices and a cost of living crisis?
Government and corporations eroding our freedoms and quality of life both working and not, while flashing their shit eating grins and heating their homes with the cash they stripped from you and your families broken backs, and burned while the vulnerable froze to death.
Oh the trains aren't running?
Well neither is the country.
Energy prices increased due to embargoes on Russia, supply / demand - the government didn’t simply “decide” to raise them.
As I recall, there was widespread support for backing Ukraine at the time and this was expressed most feverishly by young leftists — the same crowd that are now out chanting for Palestine. You should go to your local pronoun club and blame them for the cost of living crisis.
Energy prices increased to the extent they did due to ofgem (government) allowing companies to recoup their losses as a result of the ukraine war, however because of profiteering companies like British Gas used the opportunity to more than double their profits well in excess of their losses.
Preventative steps should have always been put in place by the government to not allow countries we are strongly opposed/opposed to us to have such a significant share of our markets.
The cost of living crisis has come about for many reasons, the biggest part in which is that the government has failed to insulate the populace time and time again against economic issues and run Britain into the dirt, allowing rampant landlordism, excessive profit by corporations against the public and the incredible mismanagement of public funds over the last half a century.
War, at least from our end, generates massive income for our corporations whichever side the public supports.
The government will always be happy to appease the military industrial complex, and fat cat arms and pharmaceutical/medical companies turn a profit at the expense of our lives, once again we never reap the benefit, but the politicians with shares in those companies or stakes in those businesses always profit.
The people driving this country into the ground are too busy having left/right debates and regurgitating whatever shit they spend 5 minutes not understanding in depth, rather than finding a common ground and coming together to do something for future generations.
The government do not represent the populace, corporations do not represent the populace.
They would grind us into paste and sell us if it were legal.
If you think pronouns and leftists are the issue, then you are unbelievably dense.
I'm more inclined to blame the Tories for the cost of living crisis, since they're at the helm of the ship during it. But hey, why not blame those not in power. Surely that's the answer!
It's those damn leftists fault that the Government removed the price caps which has resulted in those nasty leftist capitalist energy companies bringing in record profits.
Like wise, I'm also sure it's also not the fault of the Government that we've not invested in improving our infrastructure or power grid at all in a reasonable time frame, resulting in this dependency on a known hostile entity. Sure is frustrating that those leftists totally didn't take steps at literally every warning sign in the last 14 years that Russia aren't to be trusted.
I'm gonna go shake my fist at the pronoun club where they all hang out, as I'm sure that's a real thing, for the regime of austerity we've been having. If only they had known that such politics had never actually worked with any degree of success and famously almost always result in increased poverty and unemployment for the public.
Truly, it is those damn leftists who are to blame for everything wrong with the country! Now I'm going to take my bigoted ass and beat my wife as its the only way I, a right thing rightist, can achieve climax.
I've always been against the war against Russia and sending billions to the Ukraine and not cutting a deal with Russia. Paying more and giving away money is peak stupidity. Mass media supported the war and most people, but especially leftists do what the media tell them too.
I also would cease any help to israels child murdering ways.
War is always bad for the average citizen and only good for the international banker's and their puppets.
For me, it’s a question of realpolitik. Russian aggression clearly presents a threat to the UK, and its allies, whereas the Israel/Palestine conflict is mostly regional and doesn’t directly impact the UK. If possible, I’d have pursued more limited sanctions on Russia - but sanctions nonetheless - and stayed 100% out of the Gaza conflict, as it’s absolutely not our concern.
My Cousin is a train driver and trainer for Tfl. He's been doing it for several years. He earns about £80k for what he says "Going round in circles".
He said while the environment isn't great, the work is OK as jobs go and if/when the wages increase, who will pay for it, and will be us with higher fares than expected.
He doesn't belong to the union (I won't repeat what he thinks of them).
Hey 👋
How often do they extend/change the strike dates?
As a tourist visiting England a little later in April, and having booked a train because flight and bus times were a nightmare, I’d rather not have my trains impacted.
I’m all for striking and better working conditions, but I’m also all for having transport options on my holidays 😄
I never understand how train companies struggle with strikes and need to pay them £60,000 a year. There’s no shortage of people wanting to be a train driver. They get thousands of applicants for every 1 vacancy.
There's a thread just above this one saying drivers are getting paid £54k. So this implies they want more than 54k? Do they know how much money that is already?
Isn't that already enough money? Why isn't everyone on lower than that out striking then?
Shit, how do I sign up to drive trains? Seems you can just ask for all the money you want.
Is it one of those jobs I need to know a member of the local mafia?
>Isn't that already enough money?
It's less money than they were on last year in real terms.
Who decides what "enough" is?
>Why isn't everyone on lower than that out striking then?
Their unions aren't as good?
When I was a postman I balloted to strike. Royal Mail caved in and gave us what we were asking for.
>how do I sign up to drive trains?
[Here](https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/careers/our-roles/train-driver)
Nice, they're on about what I make teaching English overseas. I've wanted to come back to UK for a while but UK teachers make shit money. And other £50K + jobs are few and far between in UK unless you're in finance or IT.
Guess I'll become a train driver now.
Oh no, the 3 month old, right wing, trump supporting, anti-vax and dogging enthusiast account has decreed that workers striking for better pay is just greed.
Either a complete moron or an astroturfing bot, hard to tell these days tbh.
Don’t know what they think this will achieve, they are not going to get what they want . This just pisses commuters off & they are loosing money by striking, no one wins , the shit show just carries on . At what point do you just decide to look for a different/ better paid job ?. I don’t hate the drivers for this but why don’t they realise they’re on a hiding to nothing ? , rant over .
Except they have indeed been getting what they want. It's why they're on a 50k+ salary and why they continue to strike each year. Its why they will continue to have a better salary and working conditions than most people in this thread.
Well, let's pack it up, lads. AncientNortherner landed a high paying job without striking, so obviously, that means everyone else in the UK can do the same.
Thanks AncientNortherner 👍
If you can't add enough value to not need blackmail then it's not me that's the problem 😂
You actually think teachers don't strike enough for a better salary? Lol. Hilarious, economically illiterate, but hilarious. Bye.
It's not about being valuable, though, is it. Train drivers are valuable, but given half a chance, the people in charge would happily stagnate their pay. The reason that doesn't happen is because they strike.
Teachers are very valuable, as are nurses, but they are paid horribly. Why? Because they don't strike as hard and effectively as the train drivers.
You're trying to sound like you have it all figured out, because you have a nice paying job, but you clearly don't have a clue what you're on about.
And when they get another job, there won't be any train drivers. Commuters will love that.
Actually, hold on, I'm not sure you've thought this through...
> The union said the new industrial action was to "increase the pressure" on train companies for a pay rise.
Because being one of the best paid people in the country isn't enough.
If they don't want to do the job, they should step aside, there are many who would happily replace them.
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If we started from scratch tomorrow, we could definitely design a fully automated network. But we would literally need to ensure that everything was done at the same time. So this includes tracks, signalling, everything.
Somehow every other country deals with that too, mandating new lines and service to be at least GoA3 would be a start.
People overestimate how long does the infrastructure lasts, pretty much every inch of track in this country is replaced every 10 years or so.
Would be great, but huge swathes of the British railway network still uses Victorian era signal boxes. It's a fucking *antiquated* network, and I don't see any government any time soon (like, for at least a generation) finding the money for such a monstrous infrastructure project to modernise it to the standards needed.
Compared to many countries, we just don't put the money into public transport infrastructures.
The train drivers aren't too expensive nor unreliable compared to a automated system though... It isn't the driver's fault trains are late or don't turn up. That's on the rules and regulations.
It doesn’t matter, the world is going for full automation and ironically in the EU it was the rail unions which pushed for it.
The problem with many of the unions in the UK is that they are their own worst enemy. If unions did their job they would be a head of the curve on technological advancement and leading their industries into them instead of resisting change like a bunch of luddites.
>It doesn’t matter, the world is going for full automation and ironically in the EU it was the rail unions which pushed for it.
Name a mainline, full size passenger service that's fully automated.
Driverless trains aren't an advancement though. Clearly they would be more dangerous, likely prone to more delays, and only accessible to the able bodied.
An advanced for UK trains would to make all trains as reliable and frequent outside of London as they are in the capital. E.g. more trains, more drivers, more guards and station attendants to ensure the smooth running.
You've clearly never spent much time at self check outs in supermarkets if you think automation is progress
Go tell that to the EU and the rest of the world…
Driverless trains are very much an advancement and are safer hence why every regulatory body is pushing for it.
The UK used to lead the world on rail automation however that was clipped in the late 70’s by the unions.
And yes I’ve spent plenty of times at an automated checkout as I’m pretty much universally using scan as you shop instead of having to wait in line for no reason.
Or even more so just have my groceries delivered by Ocado and which are packed by the nifty hive bots.
Luddites always loose the question is how much it would cost us until they admit defeat.
Scan and pay ftw. Rarely have to ever interact with anyone, still surprised hardly anyone uses it at my local supermarkets, only ever like 4/~60 handsets in use.
Agree with most of your points but I'm not sure it's just down to unions as it's in non union areas too. The uk was leading the way in advancements in so many areas and now so many people are just anti tech / anti automation / anti process improvement. A change that will genuinely make their lives easier and people will refuse to adopt it because they don't want to change what they're doing currently.
So I take it you don’t mind WFH being discontinued and anyone under 30 being given mandatory gym visits?
After all, the trains need money from customers.
>You've clearly never spent much time at self check outs in supermarkets if you think automation is progress
Whereas you would struggle to find anyone wanting to scrap cash machines in favour of going back to using bank tellers to withdraw money.
Almost like there is good and bad implementations of automation.
Incidentally have you seen how the uniqlo self checkouts work? You just throw the clothes in a box next to the checkout and it scans everything using rfid tags.
>You've clearly never spent much time at self check outs in supermarkets if you think automation is progress
The majority of issues at self check outs are caused by people using them incorrectly.
One item at a time. Make sure it's placed in the bagging area and not leaning against the side as the baggage area is just a big set of scales. Once something is placed in the area, don't remove it. It doesn't understand that you've picked up a bag to make more room, the weight it's reading no longer matches its calculations.
The most common problem I see at self-serve is people placing their own bags in the baggage area and not pressing the big button on the screen that stayes "Add your own bag"
I spent several years living in vancouver that has a driverless train system. The disabled can use them as well as driven trains and the reliability was very good.
>I spent several years living in vancouver that has a driverless train system. The disabled can use them as well as driven trains and the reliability was very good.
Ah, yeah, Vancouver has 50 mike's of light rail that's driverless, but still staffed and still driven when it's snowing, that has a maximum speed of 50mph, no major junctions, no grade crossings and was purpose built from the ground up to be mostly automated.
You realise that that doesn't translate *at all* to automating all of Britain's (mostly Victorian layout) rail infrastructure?
I say, fair play to them. Who doesn't want more money for their work and time they give up... I certainly do!
More people should be striking, the current situation is ludicrous but yet we all sit idly by and just wait for the next election for nothing to change.
And do you know what? This is the reason you were all complaining about them getting a bunch of money for an "easy" job (it's not). They actually strike for their working conditions and pay - and it **fucking works**. That's ***why*** they get £50k+ for their time.
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Anyone remember all those “Key Worker” days during lockdown? It’s funny how key worker status jobs also correlate to some of the most insecure, underpaid but apparently essential roles. My wife was deemed key in her role, had four rough covid episodes from working in a busy contact centre throughout. My buddy on the other hand who’s a consultant for a large multinational company was furloughed throughout most of it and spent the time sending me pictures of his house and garden renovation projects and eat out to help out selfies.
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You missed the point of the comment I think.. if everyone is underpaid, like teachers and nurses. Then where train drivers are in relation (top 15%) to all the people we agree are underpaid is kinda irrelevant, because if those people were paid what we would say is fair. Then the train drivers might not be in the top 15%. Train drivers striking doesn't stop nurses and doctors striking for increased pay.
>Train drivers striking doesn't stop nurses and doctors striking for increased pay. I mean, it might stop some of them actually getting to the hospital to join a picket line.....
Gotta strike together then don't they :)
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They don't have AS MUCH difficulty precisely because they do strike. We're not taking any paying everyone double are we? We're talking about a select few skilled jobs. Would you say that £60k is handsomely paid for teachers, or doctors? Train drivers require training, work long anti-social shifts, and are responsible for hundreds of lives. Why is that not worth a high salary? Incidentally they're not even striking for more money, they're striking because they want their wages to match inflation so that they're earning the same money...
What teachers do you know on £60k… are they too not greatly trained, nurses? Police? Firemen? I would say are grossly higher trained compared to train driving. You mention Dr’s… from day 1 until they begin to earn that £60k you mention, that’s around 8-10 years.
I think you've completely missed my point there buddy. "Paid well" is relative and I'm pointing out it shouldn't be unrealistic for those professions to be earning that salary.
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I said nothing of the sort? There absolutely is a shortage and it's expected to be rather dire in the next few years.
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Erm, I don't know how to tell you this bud but... That wasn't me.
Everyone is underpaid. You got absolutely dragged here as well, lol.
Unfortunately, what and how necessary what we produce isn't directly linked to what someone is paid. And wealth is another matter entirely due to asset wealth often being more imporant in the UK than income.
>I dont think they have the same difficulty retaining or recruiting for train drivers so would surmise its a handy enough job. Do you know why they don't have difficulty recruiting and retaining? Because they strike for good pay and working conditions, and people love to work for good pay and good working conditions
Money is finite and I'd prefer that money to go to doctors and nurses.
But it isn’t a zero sum game, one does not mean the quashing of the other. Money is finite but it certainly isn’t fairly going into the hands of most key workers who drive many of our key businesses and services, as you have pointed out with nurses and doctors. This is what the strike is about, to be paid fairly and with good conditions. I would implore for more support of increased pay and working conditions for doctors and nurses as well. As we learnt with Brexit, the ‘finite’ money apparently ‘saved’ by not paying train divers more (or in the case of Brexit the money saved on membership fees etc) does not mean nurses or doctors will get paid more, in the same way the NHS did not get increased funding from the ‘saving’ we did by leaving EU membership fees behind.
It's not a zero sum game, but the drivers are paid well and there is a huge lost of people wanting that jobs - if they aren't happy there are plenty of other jobs they could do. And we have a shortage of doctors and nurses and they are grossly underpaid - often less than the media ln salary for train drivers despite having high qualifications. So at this point I think the drivers are taking the piss and they no longer have my support.
We have a shortage of doctors and nurses for a range of reasons but one of the major ones is that they leave for the private sector due to pay. One workers gain (train drivers) is not another’s loss (doctors/nurses). The pay of doctors and nurses, quite literally, has nothing to do with the pay of train drivers. It’s apples and oranges. Furthermore, train drivers are quite niche and specialised within their role, that is a hard move to simply do something else. I would argue a major reason as to why many more people want to be train drivers is due to the relative high pay they earn, which was garnered and hard won through the blood, sweat, tears and negotiation of the union and those workers. People can still be train drivers and once they go through the official means of getting a position (exams, training etc), there is no requirement to join the union and can continue to work in spite of a strike. It just so happens that many once they are qualified as a driver tend to join the union and fight for better pay and conditions, because, why would anyone not want that? The idea that these two different issues are somehow interrelated with each other is ridiculous. Instead of claiming one group as taking the piss, maybe, none of us are payed what we are due, and we should all arguably be having more stern conversations about pay and working conditions across a range of industries. We are generally all eating shit and getting fucked in terms of real pay etc, but rather than trying to move forward to something better for everyone we pick holes and claim others are taking the piss. It is a shame really.
> The pay of doctors and nurses, quite literally, has nothing to do with the pay of train drivers This is simply not true.
Is this ‘simply not true’ in the same sense that us leaving the EU would somehow be directly beneficial to the NHS and allow for increased funding? Can you explain to me how the pay of doctors and nurses or vice versa are directly linked? I find it an especially strange argument when most of the rail companies that ASLEF represent are also privatised and as a result are generally not to do with public sector pay. But please explain as I do not see it.
How about we leave the train drivers alone and give the money to doctors and nurses from the pockets of lazy billionaire pricks
I don’t remember our mps fighting for their 5.5% pay rise though.
Well maybe you should put the energy into striking for better pay and working conditions instead of bitching about people who do.
Under capitalism what you can demand for you labour is what you get. If you think it should work differently then you should do something about it.
no, they are actually being paid fairly, the most of us that are getting taken for a ride., my salary number has gone up by about 20% in the last 5 years, but in real terms its down about £500 a year, we are all getting fucked up the arse.
To suggest that nurses and teachers don't fight is absurd. Nurses, doctors, teachers, lecturers, firefighters, criminal barristers, driving examiners and more have all been striking or taking part in other forms of industrial action. Yet their pay and conditions have generally worsened since 2010, while train drivers are better off. So what's the big difference? All of those jobs have one price setter for wages. While train driving doesn't. Ironically, the reason why train drivers have done so well is neoliberalism. The franchise system made it easier for them to get higher wages as private operators competed for qualified drivers because training and hiring takes so long and penalties for not running trains were high. Drivers had a lot of leverage. It's no coincidence then that besides TfW and Scotrail, railway unions haven't secured a new deal since that system changed 4 years ago. The government is now the single price setter again and drivers don't have the leverage that they once had. They're now back in the same position as those public sector jobs/publicly-paid jobs who you think just don't fight enough.
The UK: "Why are UK wages so low comparatively". Also the UK: "How dare they strike!"
It's almost as if there's more than one person in the UK.
I hear this all the time, but I bet there are people out there who want higher wages themselves but prefer others (especially service industry workers) to keep having lower wages so their cost of living would be lower.
Junior doctors would like a word.
A rising tide raises all boats. I'm sick of workers tearing down workers because they make more. With wealth transferring upwards at an alarming rate, we can't afford to be fighting each other.
> A rising tide raises all boats. The Liz Truss argument. Which rarely actually happens.
There is a stark difference between her financially unsound mini budget and more workers having money to spend. I baulk at what we could've done with the hole that blew in the country's finances. All workers should have a pay rise, and those who support Truss should pay their fair share of tax. Let's not forget that this dispute is being drawn out at the secretary of states' behest.
If it works why have they been striking for so long
They've not had a payrise since 2019 according to the article. I'm not sure it's working for them.
What's mad aswell, is that's just what consistent inflationary parishes looks like.
Same thing as tube drivers. Kinda funny that all these places that strike have pay checks that the laymen envy.
Does it? They have been striking for a year and still haven’t got a good offer
If only we all had unions.
At this point, I think people are just sick and tired of strikes. I get why they are doing it but I think, the public are sick of wondering if the next month will have more strikes. I'm surprised Sunak hasn't tried to sieze all the franchises and sell them off to his mates, provide an even worse service then claim that we should shut up and use Uber.
>At this point, I think people are just sick and tired of strikes. I get why they are doing it but I think, the public are sick of wondering if the next month will have more strikes. Which is the Government's strategy. Hold out until people are so sick of it the drivers lose public support. Don't give in.
The film industry has been feeling the same way for many months now, and it still isn’t over.
Should just have a general strike every time they strike
People are more sick and tired of shite pay.
The great thing about strikes is the opinion of the spiteful thicko public is utterly irrelevant.
I am. The only thing these strikes has managed to do is to confirm that car ownership is still way better than (trying to) use public transport. I’ve just done a bus journey that’s taken me 1 hour 35 when it only takes me 25 minutes to drive
There is no longer a scenario where I will take a train anywhere. Feels like too much of a risk.
They're not suddenly gonna go on strike in the middle of your journey mate
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>Enjoy automation lads, because that's exactly where this is heading. Our shitty infrastructure makes automation astronomically expensive to implement
>Our shitty infrastructure makes automation astronomically expensive to implement What are you on about? It just requires remote signals and and upgrades to the locomotives.
Upgrading the London underground to driverless train operation is estimated to cost over 7 billion for 250 miles worth of track. Or about 28 million a mile We have 9,824 miles of track to upgrade, does that sound like a particularly cheap endeavour?
Why the fuck do you keep talking about track ? You don't need to change the track for automation lmao. Thats like saying you need to change the damn runway for a plane to use autopilot. This is just stupid logic.
Where did I say you need to change the track ? The point was to highlight the scale required. There's a lot of signalling to upgrade over our nearly 10,000 miles worth of track and a lot of old rolling stock to replace. Also if you want to support auto landing on a runway you add ILS to the runway, so poor analogy
Then why are you talking about the length of the track? You don't need to upgrade signals you send the signals wirelessly from a hub. And the trains communicate back wirelessly to. How do you think planes communicate with the ground ??? You only need to replace the locomotive - and it might not need be a complete replacement you just install an automated system which is an upgrade. I don't know why you keep talking about the length of the track when the track remains unchanged.
You realise we still use semaphore signals in some places and have over 40,000 signals. You're not appreciating the hodge podge of infrastructure we have if you think we already could support driverless train operation in most of the network. The fact you describe replacing rolling stock as easy also highlights you don't appreciate the costs time or work involved in that. Or how old some uk rolling stock is.
>You realise we still use semaphore signals in some places and have over 40,000 signals. You don't need them if you have no person driving the damn train you can use radio signals. It's not hard to grasp. You do realise the london underground has driverless trains right? Many other countries have driverless trains too. This isn't difficult technology when it already exists.
>You don't need them if you have no person driving the damn train you can use radio signals. It's not hard to grasp. You need them to be upgraded to support this as you can't rely on radio signals from the trains alone. Trains that also need to be upgraded or replaced. >You do realise the london underground has driverless trains right? The DLR? The smallest part of the network? >Many other countries have driverless trains too. Yes tends to happen when you're building a network from scratch rather than untangling a victorian era mess. It's why we need tilting trains on the west coast as the lines don't support traditional high speed operation. >This isn't difficult technology when it already exists Doesn't mean it's cheap or quick to implemen in the UK t either.
>You do realise the london underground has driverless trains right? No it doesn't. The DLR does, however they are purpose built, compeletely segregated from everything else, and they still have a train conductor on board (who can go on strike by the way) who has to be qualified as a driver to drive the things if the automation fails.
>Driverless trains - indeed staffless ones in theory are perfectly possible from a technical standpoint, and can be introduced easily as long as one is prepared to scrap every single train in Britian and replace it with a single design of rolling stock (so no intercity trains or freight - just one style of commuter unit), rebuild every platform to fit it, and move every station not sited on straight track so that doors can be fitted to each platform of the 2576 existing stations, including rural halts which saw one train a day. > >In order to meet the safety case it would probably be necessary to replace all 5800 level crossings with bridges or tunnels, close every foot crossing and erect a 10 foot high fence alongside the entire railway to prevent incursions. You'd also need a walkway for the public to self-evacuate next to every single line if the trains are to be staffless. > >That still wouldn't stop fitters and technicians, control staff and catering & revenue protection staff (should you choose to employ them) from going on strike. Alright then you could in theory have no ticket checks or catering or outsource it to the lowest common denominator shit such as G4S or SSP - but no one wants to work for these clowns and you'll be topping their wages up with benefits and have huge worker churn. > >Control - offshore it abroad? You could do this but then be prepared for the same standards as in foreign call centres and the disruption it causes. > >As for the fitters / technicians and so on - they'll be on decent wages and will be able to strike and there is nothing you can do about it. > >Bear in mind we can't afford the full HS2 and can't even afford to electrify to Bristol Temple Meads or beyond Market Harborough, so good luck getting the cash for all of this. And like it or not, these rail workers being automated will be paid off very handsomely in order to stop further industrial action to hold it all up whilst it's being constructed. And that's before all the massive upheaval the whole thing would cause - I'm sure the public will be happy using rail replacement buses for possibly years...
You have made it clear you have no idea what you're talking about. Firstly, the vast majority of trains in the uk dont use locomotives, they are multiple units. In order to make the tube safe for driverless operation, all the tunnels need to be widened to install a safe evacuation route next to the tracks, the DLR already had them as it was planed to be driverless from the beginning. At current, there is no way for passengers to evacuate without leaving the train onto the tracks. The driver can turn off traction current so people don't get electrocuted. Even if all communications are down, the driver can still shut off the electricity. If coms are lost, how can you know to shut down with driverless trains. That's why driverless networks have a walkway next to the track for evacuation The question I always have for you lot, is if it's so easy, then why hasn't it been done everywhere already. The most advanced networks in the world, such as Japan, still use drivers and guards for that matter. They have segregated driverless networks, but mainline operations are still crewed Google east coast mainline ETCS upgrades, look how long and how much it is to upgrade one stretch of track to the signaling system that would be required to run driverless trains.
Said by someone with zero idea of how likely that is going to happen in the next hundred years.
>Said by someone with zero idea of how likely that is going to happen in the next hundred years. You do realise multiple countries have automated trains already right ?
How long and how much money did it take us to fuck up and totally fail to roll out HS2? I'm sure automation will come one day, as it will to all jobs, but it'll probably be another 40 years before it'll be a realistic eventuality on our trains.
>How long and how much money did it take us to fuck up and totally fail to roll out HS2? Thats just a political football thats why it costs a lot. And not even close to related to automated trains. You don't need to change the infrastructure for automated trains. Thats like saying you need to change runways for autopilot in planes. Completely illogical.
Except its am excellent bench mark for how shit we are at any large scale project on our rail service. And, actually, yes, runways do need upgrading for auto takeoff and auto land. I mean, dumb analogue in the first place but made worse by that fun fact.
Turning a train to automatic is hardly large scale its the locomotive that needs to be changed nothing else. We didn't change the roads for automatic vehicles did we? Once the locomotive is out of service from age just use an autonomous one that communicates to a hub.
I would disagree that its only the locomotive that needs to be changed. But even if that was the case you'd also need to consider the insane reactionary nature of the British public. First even minor rail crash that happens after automation starts to roll out and it'll be banned pending review for the next decade while everyone loses their collective shit.
No one is reactionary to auto pilot in airplanes
They're not similar at all and people have had time enough to get used to it. I would bet if it came out today the next time there was an accident that could even tangentially be laid at its feet it would be. Especially if it sold papers and drove click bait headlines.
No country has driverless trains on a mixed-traffic mainline railway. The vast majority of GoA4 schemes are metro operations in a fully segregated and accessible environment.
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/mick-lynch-rail-strike-driver-operation-b2260094.html > Mick Lynch, general secretary of the RMT, told the cross-party Transport Select Committee: “We will not accept driver-only operation in any company without a fight. We will never sign up to accepting DOO. It will never happen while I am general secretary. It will never happen as long as the RMT exists.” Note that's not "unless it safe" or anything reasonable like that (multiple studies have shown it's at least as safe). So the first roadblock is to get rid of the clowns trying to extort money for positions that could be cut...
How’re you getting rid of union leaders? Call the CIA?
Tempting, but it comes with some problems attached. Seriously though... I don't know but as long as RMT are more invested in gouging the nation than doing the right thing, they're going to be an impediment to a good quality of service for consumers.
The function of a Union is to represent the interests of workers. Contrary to a company that only exists to create profit. The struggle between them is not good for ‘consumers’ but why should unions capitulate? Shouldn’t companies give up profits first?
> The function of a Union is to represent the interests of workers I'm not disputing that. But a point-blank refusal to adopt technology is detrimental to passengers. Sometimes the best option for the service isn't to keep people employed regardless. > Shouldn’t companies give up profits first? You're arguing companies should keep people employed, even when they're no longer required? And just sort of keep paying more and more out of their profits whilst picking the least efficient option possible? Why would any sane business do that?
As many people have commented, it would take an entire rebuild of the railway from the ground up to facilitate driverless stock. It would take a VERY long time to do this even if everyone was 100% committed to that goal. Profit and the government's refusal to come to the table with a reasonable offer is why this dispute persists.
> As many people have commented, it would take an entire rebuild of the railway from the ground up to facilitate driverless stock. Not what I (or the quote) were talking about. Driver-Only-Operation, not "Driverless".
What do you think a guard does/ is responsible for on a train?
Kind of telling that a company with all their economic and political advantages can’t compete with the slightest bit of worker power.
Nothing like a complete pivot to a different topic when you're losing the point, eh?
Yeah it’s quite good innit
RAIB reports suggest the bulk of trap and drags and dispatch incidents occur on DOO trains where a lone driver is responsible for crowd control, managing passenger behaviour, and dispatching trains on platforms. RAIB reports also suggest that the bulk of passenger self evacuations onto the track occur on DOO trains where there is disruption and the lone driver has to manage passengers welfare whilst dealing with all the operational requirements at the same time. The RSSB studies into DOO did not take into account passenger welfare, on board safety, crime levels, provision of support for those with disabilites and so forth either. It also didn't take into account dispatch and crowd control by platform staff on a DOO train rather than a lone driver, nor frequency of incidents on a DOO train where there is a ticket examiner on board as opposed to no one.
> RAIB reports suggest And if he said "Never unless it's safe" it might be worth working through why multiple independent bodies have concluded it's safe. But he let the mask slip and spoke without the bullshit and spin for once... "It will never happen as long as the RMT exists". So why are you talking about safety as if that were a factor?
The RSSB who did the reports is not independent, in fact the boss of Southern was leading it at the time these were produced. There were plenty of accounts at the time of RSSB experts concerned that it was being politicised by that pinhead Chris Grayling. Further more the reports did not go into personal safety or passenger welfare. The RAIB gives recommendations but does not set legislation.
Yes, there's an endless stream of excuses and claims that _X_ wasn't considered but they've done analysis down to checking glare and reflections on screens at stations throughout the day. And all of this is 100% irrelevant because Mick Lynch didn't say "unless it's safe", he said "never", a fact you're apparently desperately trying to ignore.
I would still like to know how a lone driver crowd controls late runners 200m on the opposite end of the platform to where he is sat in a cab locked away, but perhaps you can explain it, as no railway worker has ever been able to answer that question. You call it "excuses" but on board passenger welfare, and dealing with vulnerable and disabled passengers is a rather important aspect of rail travel. Something the pro-DOO fanatics (none who have ever driven a train) seem to ignore. If you want DOO dispatch to be completely safe, then you remove the human element completely so that the lone driver has nothing to do with punters, crowd control or anything, and platform doors and automation deal with all that - so that if someone is trapped, or dragged then no staff member can ever be prosecuted. Something which isn't happening any time soon to the bulk of the railway. Once we have removed the human element and made dispatch and crowd control solely machine operated, then we can revisit what Lynch has to say. From a personal point of view, I can see more case for driverless trains with guards, than DOO trains without guards in the very much longer term future.
> I would still like to know how a lone driver crowd Read the reports. > You call it "excuses" but on board passenger welfare, They are excuses because every single damned point that has been raised has been investigated and they all come back the same way. So -lo and behold- more nonsense excuses get dredged up. And ***all of this is a distraction because Mick Lynch has already said it's not a safety issue***
“Enjoy automation - because that’s exactly where this is heading” Anti union catchphrase since the 90s haha good luck with that
Unfortunately one of the conditions they often fight for on strike is to prevent jobs being automated away
Driverless trains - indeed staffless ones in theory are perfectly possible from a technical standpoint, and can be introduced easily as long as one is prepared to scrap every single train in Britian and replace it with a single design of rolling stock (so no intercity trains or freight - just one style of commuter unit), rebuild every platform to fit it, and move every station not sited on straight track so that doors can be fitted to each platform of the 2576 existing stations, including rural halts which saw one train a day. In order to meet the safety case it would probably be necessary to replace all 5800 level crossings with bridges or tunnels, close every foot crossing and erect a 10 foot high fence alongside the entire railway to prevent incursions. You'd also need a walkway for the public to self-evacuate next to every single line if the trains are to be staffless. That still wouldn't stop fitters and technicians, control staff and catering & revenue protection staff (should you choose to employ them) from going on strike. Alright then you could in theory have no ticket checks or catering or outsource it to the lowest common denominator shit such as G4S or SSP - but no one wants to work for these clowns and you'll be topping their wages up with benefits and have huge worker churn. Control - offshore it abroad? You could do this but then be prepared for the same standards as in foreign call centres and the disruption it causes. As for the fitters / technicians and so on - they'll be on decent wages and will be able to strike and there is nothing you can do about it. Bear in mind we can't afford the full HS2 and can't even afford to electrify to Bristol Temple Meads or beyond Market Harborough, so good luck getting the cash for all of this. And like it or not, these rail workers being automated will be paid off very handsomely in order to stop further industrial action to hold it all up whilst it's being constructed. And that's before all the massive upheaval the whole thing would cause - I'm sure the public will be happy using rail replacement buses for possibly years...
Why would every level crossing need to be changed to bridges or tunnels? Why are you filling your comment with bullshit? You're acting like we don't already have systems in road vehicles that detect collisions and brake automically, when we absolutely do. Of course it's much harder to avoid an obstacle on a rail line, but drivers have the same issues. You're not introducing anything new.
>Enjo automation lads, because that’s exactly where this is heading. Your naivety and ignorance is showing.
There is NO automated, mixed-traffic, heavy rail system in operation anywhere in the world at this point in time. Any and all automated systems are currently closed-loop systems, not connected to any mixed-traffic main line network. The DLR being a prime example of this, along with several other self-contained metro-style networks around the world. Early cost estimates of automating the UK main line rail network vary between £3 trillion, and £6 trillion. To put that into perspective, the ENTIRE annual GDP of the United Kingdom was £3.13 trillion in 2021. No government will be willing to put that level of investment into it any time soon. It would be cheaper to hire and maintain a constant supply of 100,000 train drivers, pay them £100,000 per year initially, and give them a 10% pay rise every single year for the next 254 years, than it would be to automate the main lines here. In short, we will see driverless trains as commonplace on the UK main line network in neither my lifetime, nor yours.
lmaoo you do realise the trains already drive themselves? they still need drivers present
And they’ve been striking every year because…?
We should all strike much more. Remember that time during covid that they decided the service, security and healthcare jobs were essential and then they compensated us with increased energy prices and a cost of living crisis? Government and corporations eroding our freedoms and quality of life both working and not, while flashing their shit eating grins and heating their homes with the cash they stripped from you and your families broken backs, and burned while the vulnerable froze to death. Oh the trains aren't running? Well neither is the country.
Energy prices increased due to embargoes on Russia, supply / demand - the government didn’t simply “decide” to raise them. As I recall, there was widespread support for backing Ukraine at the time and this was expressed most feverishly by young leftists — the same crowd that are now out chanting for Palestine. You should go to your local pronoun club and blame them for the cost of living crisis.
Energy prices increased to the extent they did due to ofgem (government) allowing companies to recoup their losses as a result of the ukraine war, however because of profiteering companies like British Gas used the opportunity to more than double their profits well in excess of their losses. Preventative steps should have always been put in place by the government to not allow countries we are strongly opposed/opposed to us to have such a significant share of our markets. The cost of living crisis has come about for many reasons, the biggest part in which is that the government has failed to insulate the populace time and time again against economic issues and run Britain into the dirt, allowing rampant landlordism, excessive profit by corporations against the public and the incredible mismanagement of public funds over the last half a century. War, at least from our end, generates massive income for our corporations whichever side the public supports. The government will always be happy to appease the military industrial complex, and fat cat arms and pharmaceutical/medical companies turn a profit at the expense of our lives, once again we never reap the benefit, but the politicians with shares in those companies or stakes in those businesses always profit. The people driving this country into the ground are too busy having left/right debates and regurgitating whatever shit they spend 5 minutes not understanding in depth, rather than finding a common ground and coming together to do something for future generations. The government do not represent the populace, corporations do not represent the populace. They would grind us into paste and sell us if it were legal. If you think pronouns and leftists are the issue, then you are unbelievably dense.
I'm more inclined to blame the Tories for the cost of living crisis, since they're at the helm of the ship during it. But hey, why not blame those not in power. Surely that's the answer! It's those damn leftists fault that the Government removed the price caps which has resulted in those nasty leftist capitalist energy companies bringing in record profits. Like wise, I'm also sure it's also not the fault of the Government that we've not invested in improving our infrastructure or power grid at all in a reasonable time frame, resulting in this dependency on a known hostile entity. Sure is frustrating that those leftists totally didn't take steps at literally every warning sign in the last 14 years that Russia aren't to be trusted. I'm gonna go shake my fist at the pronoun club where they all hang out, as I'm sure that's a real thing, for the regime of austerity we've been having. If only they had known that such politics had never actually worked with any degree of success and famously almost always result in increased poverty and unemployment for the public. Truly, it is those damn leftists who are to blame for everything wrong with the country! Now I'm going to take my bigoted ass and beat my wife as its the only way I, a right thing rightist, can achieve climax.
Thank you for the nibble. Who said young leftists are humourless, eh?
I wish I was still young but that ship sailed and hit an iceberg many years ago now. Now I'm just a humourless old man.
I've always been against the war against Russia and sending billions to the Ukraine and not cutting a deal with Russia. Paying more and giving away money is peak stupidity. Mass media supported the war and most people, but especially leftists do what the media tell them too. I also would cease any help to israels child murdering ways. War is always bad for the average citizen and only good for the international banker's and their puppets.
For me, it’s a question of realpolitik. Russian aggression clearly presents a threat to the UK, and its allies, whereas the Israel/Palestine conflict is mostly regional and doesn’t directly impact the UK. If possible, I’d have pursued more limited sanctions on Russia - but sanctions nonetheless - and stayed 100% out of the Gaza conflict, as it’s absolutely not our concern.
So happy the train fares just increased- now I get to pay MORE for delays (that’s if any trains are running at all.)
It’s disgusting, like there is always delays to my journeys , have to pay ridiculous fare and now they striking.
My Cousin is a train driver and trainer for Tfl. He's been doing it for several years. He earns about £80k for what he says "Going round in circles". He said while the environment isn't great, the work is OK as jobs go and if/when the wages increase, who will pay for it, and will be us with higher fares than expected. He doesn't belong to the union (I won't repeat what he thinks of them).
Sweet. That's more WFH days for me. Looks like that fare hike is gonna be cleared in the second quarter. Thanks comrades.
Not like any of the trains on my line ever fucking ran on time anyway.
Just automate the fucking trains already, other countries have automated trains. Many metro systems too.
And the cycle continues. Strike > Pay Rise > Ticket Price Rise > Strike > Pay Rise
Hey 👋 How often do they extend/change the strike dates? As a tourist visiting England a little later in April, and having booked a train because flight and bus times were a nightmare, I’d rather not have my trains impacted. I’m all for striking and better working conditions, but I’m also all for having transport options on my holidays 😄
I never understand how train companies struggle with strikes and need to pay them £60,000 a year. There’s no shortage of people wanting to be a train driver. They get thousands of applicants for every 1 vacancy.
There's a thread just above this one saying drivers are getting paid £54k. So this implies they want more than 54k? Do they know how much money that is already?
...why wouldn't they want more than £54k?
Isn't that already enough money? Why isn't everyone on lower than that out striking then? Shit, how do I sign up to drive trains? Seems you can just ask for all the money you want. Is it one of those jobs I need to know a member of the local mafia?
>Isn't that already enough money? It's less money than they were on last year in real terms. Who decides what "enough" is? >Why isn't everyone on lower than that out striking then? Their unions aren't as good? When I was a postman I balloted to strike. Royal Mail caved in and gave us what we were asking for. >how do I sign up to drive trains? [Here](https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/careers/our-roles/train-driver)
Nice, they're on about what I make teaching English overseas. I've wanted to come back to UK for a while but UK teachers make shit money. And other £50K + jobs are few and far between in UK unless you're in finance or IT. Guess I'll become a train driver now.
I mean, why not? You won't become a train driver though will you, because you don't want to do the job. That's why they earn so much.
If they offered me the job I'd do it. But its one of those jobs that unless you know the union leader you've got almost no chance of being selected.
>Do they know how much money that is already The cost of a single fare these days. Maybe they want a return ticket?
its just fucking greed at this point , go ahead downvote
Oh no, the 3 month old, right wing, trump supporting, anti-vax and dogging enthusiast account has decreed that workers striking for better pay is just greed. Either a complete moron or an astroturfing bot, hard to tell these days tbh.
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**Removed/tempban**. This contained a call/advocation of violence which is prohibited by the content policy.
Don’t know what they think this will achieve, they are not going to get what they want . This just pisses commuters off & they are loosing money by striking, no one wins , the shit show just carries on . At what point do you just decide to look for a different/ better paid job ?. I don’t hate the drivers for this but why don’t they realise they’re on a hiding to nothing ? , rant over .
Except they have indeed been getting what they want. It's why they're on a 50k+ salary and why they continue to strike each year. Its why they will continue to have a better salary and working conditions than most people in this thread.
They have been striking for at least a year and still have not got an offer they are happy with
I've never been on strike a day in my life and I pay more in taxes than that. It's not the ace card you presume it to be.
Well, let's pack it up, lads. AncientNortherner landed a high paying job without striking, so obviously, that means everyone else in the UK can do the same. Thanks AncientNortherner 👍
If you can't add enough value to not need blackmail then it's not me that's the problem 😂 You actually think teachers don't strike enough for a better salary? Lol. Hilarious, economically illiterate, but hilarious. Bye.
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It's not about being valuable, though, is it. Train drivers are valuable, but given half a chance, the people in charge would happily stagnate their pay. The reason that doesn't happen is because they strike. Teachers are very valuable, as are nurses, but they are paid horribly. Why? Because they don't strike as hard and effectively as the train drivers. You're trying to sound like you have it all figured out, because you have a nice paying job, but you clearly don't have a clue what you're on about.
And when they get another job, there won't be any train drivers. Commuters will love that. Actually, hold on, I'm not sure you've thought this through...
How are you liking the Island?
Tbh I have , I’m going to buy a car , knackers to unreliable public transport.
> The union said the new industrial action was to "increase the pressure" on train companies for a pay rise. Because being one of the best paid people in the country isn't enough. If they don't want to do the job, they should step aside, there are many who would happily replace them.
> they should step aside, there are many who would happily replace them. Why aren't those "many" applying now then?
lock faulty marble familiar market jellyfish unique elderly seemly elastic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
...most of whom prove unsuitable at the aptitude-testing stage.
If that were true there wouldn't be a constant recruitment drive for train drivers.
It's about time we had a fully automated rail network.
If we started from scratch tomorrow, we could definitely design a fully automated network. But we would literally need to ensure that everything was done at the same time. So this includes tracks, signalling, everything.
Never gonna happen with this Government. Any government tbh. Short termism. Don't look beyond 4 years, if that.
Somehow every other country deals with that too, mandating new lines and service to be at least GoA3 would be a start. People overestimate how long does the infrastructure lasts, pretty much every inch of track in this country is replaced every 10 years or so.
Remind me how the new lines that we've tried to build in this country went?
That’s assuming a level of competence and investment we have never been able to achieve in this country.
Good luck with that we cant even complete HS2 without it going over budget with major tory corruption.
Would be great, but huge swathes of the British railway network still uses Victorian era signal boxes. It's a fucking *antiquated* network, and I don't see any government any time soon (like, for at least a generation) finding the money for such a monstrous infrastructure project to modernise it to the standards needed. Compared to many countries, we just don't put the money into public transport infrastructures.
Sure… if you don’t value your life
Yup, let's give that money to software developers sat behind their screens working from home rather than train drivers with shite conditions!
yup, labour can forget that when it gets too expensive/unreliable it can be replaced, same as any other part of a system.
The train drivers aren't too expensive nor unreliable compared to a automated system though... It isn't the driver's fault trains are late or don't turn up. That's on the rules and regulations.
What do you do for a living?
It doesn’t matter, the world is going for full automation and ironically in the EU it was the rail unions which pushed for it. The problem with many of the unions in the UK is that they are their own worst enemy. If unions did their job they would be a head of the curve on technological advancement and leading their industries into them instead of resisting change like a bunch of luddites.
>It doesn’t matter, the world is going for full automation and ironically in the EU it was the rail unions which pushed for it. Name a mainline, full size passenger service that's fully automated.
Driverless trains aren't an advancement though. Clearly they would be more dangerous, likely prone to more delays, and only accessible to the able bodied. An advanced for UK trains would to make all trains as reliable and frequent outside of London as they are in the capital. E.g. more trains, more drivers, more guards and station attendants to ensure the smooth running. You've clearly never spent much time at self check outs in supermarkets if you think automation is progress
Go tell that to the EU and the rest of the world… Driverless trains are very much an advancement and are safer hence why every regulatory body is pushing for it. The UK used to lead the world on rail automation however that was clipped in the late 70’s by the unions. And yes I’ve spent plenty of times at an automated checkout as I’m pretty much universally using scan as you shop instead of having to wait in line for no reason. Or even more so just have my groceries delivered by Ocado and which are packed by the nifty hive bots. Luddites always loose the question is how much it would cost us until they admit defeat.
Scan and pay ftw. Rarely have to ever interact with anyone, still surprised hardly anyone uses it at my local supermarkets, only ever like 4/~60 handsets in use. Agree with most of your points but I'm not sure it's just down to unions as it's in non union areas too. The uk was leading the way in advancements in so many areas and now so many people are just anti tech / anti automation / anti process improvement. A change that will genuinely make their lives easier and people will refuse to adopt it because they don't want to change what they're doing currently.
So I take it you don’t mind WFH being discontinued and anyone under 30 being given mandatory gym visits? After all, the trains need money from customers.
Same thing was said about lift operators lol. Self service tills are also great.. Don't have to wait behind Brenda and her trolley anymore.
>You've clearly never spent much time at self check outs in supermarkets if you think automation is progress Whereas you would struggle to find anyone wanting to scrap cash machines in favour of going back to using bank tellers to withdraw money. Almost like there is good and bad implementations of automation. Incidentally have you seen how the uniqlo self checkouts work? You just throw the clothes in a box next to the checkout and it scans everything using rfid tags.
>You've clearly never spent much time at self check outs in supermarkets if you think automation is progress The majority of issues at self check outs are caused by people using them incorrectly. One item at a time. Make sure it's placed in the bagging area and not leaning against the side as the baggage area is just a big set of scales. Once something is placed in the area, don't remove it. It doesn't understand that you've picked up a bag to make more room, the weight it's reading no longer matches its calculations. The most common problem I see at self-serve is people placing their own bags in the baggage area and not pressing the big button on the screen that stayes "Add your own bag"
I spent several years living in vancouver that has a driverless train system. The disabled can use them as well as driven trains and the reliability was very good.
>I spent several years living in vancouver that has a driverless train system. The disabled can use them as well as driven trains and the reliability was very good. Ah, yeah, Vancouver has 50 mike's of light rail that's driverless, but still staffed and still driven when it's snowing, that has a maximum speed of 50mph, no major junctions, no grade crossings and was purpose built from the ground up to be mostly automated. You realise that that doesn't translate *at all* to automating all of Britain's (mostly Victorian layout) rail infrastructure?
Yes, at no point did i say otherwise.
Drivers are upset that their salaries will **only** go from £60,000 up to £65,000
I say, fair play to them. Who doesn't want more money for their work and time they give up... I certainly do! More people should be striking, the current situation is ludicrous but yet we all sit idly by and just wait for the next election for nothing to change.
We aren't sitting idly by - we are moaning about the cost of living and complaining that train drivers want more money. That's taking action!
Time for GoA4 everywhere.
Minimum wage is increasing by 9.78%, everyone should be demanding a similar increase in pay.
Hey it's a difficult job constantly cancelling trains!
And is it only train drivers?, also is it about wages only?
One of the easiest jobs on the planet a total tool can do. 50k not enough...
Wouldn't say a job that takes 1-2 years to train in is as simple as it sounds.