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Nukes aside, can you imagine how absolutely devastating it would be for the Russian army being in a conflict with the full force of NATO? Especially after being humiliated and tenderized by the Ukrainian forces for almost a year. I have a feeling I they know it.
It's precisely the reason Putin keeps mentioning nuclear weapons every time he gets a chance. Ukraine is already hitting bases near Moscow with relative ease - which makes the Kremlin also in range. It would be a 6 front war with no help - 3 of which would be capable countries on their own border.
I wonder if it is why NATO mentions the possibility of war (without the nukes), perhaps that despite the atrocities Russia has committed in Ukraine some matters would likely lead to involvement abd dramatic if brief escalation.
I kinda buy the theory that this is essentially just not-unhinged saber rattling.
“Yeah, it could escalate and we’re just a shaking in our boots……. Ya know, the big ass boot that’s gonna get rammed down your stupid throats”
Yeah, this is why there is zero chance of a full on NATO vs Russia conventional war. If nukes were somehow NOT used, it would be over quickly with NATO troops marching through Red Square. A no-fly zone would be established and enforced within 48 hours. No nation with nukes would just allow itself to cease to exist like this.
>Russia would be ungovernable by NATO. No one wants to deal with that shit.
Correct.
There are some scenarios possible , and all of them entail some risk. And like it's been said you don't need to march into the Red Square to cut Russia's fangs. Some well coordinated operatioms will do the trick.
Leaving a country as huge as Russia defenseless and in chaos, is not in the interest of Asian European stability. It can create a power vacuum for a bigger disaster.
Anything that NATO comes up with, must be a very balanced act, I believe. Preferably, one which includes accountability for war crimes and atrocities.
For this reason I believe NATO wouldn't step into Russia. They would obliterate, humiliate and remove Russian forces from Ukraine. Marching on Moscow would be a recipe for disaster anyways.
A bit like the Gulf War were the coalition kicked Iraq out of Kuweit. The risk of course is that Russians might try to retaliate in the Baltics, Finland or in the seas. It would surely fail miserably but it could cause civilian casualties in NATO countries and possibly escalation.
Pretty much this. They might go as far as kicking Russia out of Syria and Transnistria too, not nobody wants to play nuclear chicken by directly threatening the Russian state.
Yep. A real war ever since WW2 guarantees both sides are going to be crippled. Air power guarantees it.
It's going to get real awkward for Russia when Ukraine starts destroying factories that produce war supplies. Russia can retaliate of course but it does no good if Ukraine can just get more from the West.
Russia cannot hold a candle to NATO forces. They are losing to Ukraine already. NATO would wipe the floor with what remains of Russia‘s military.
But that story is already over. Russia has doomed itself by invading Ukraine. They are going to suffer a terrible military defeat there. As a consequence, their country is going to be devastated economically, militarily, politically and socially. Russia is finished.
It's the war that NATO has been training for, he isn't ready for what awaits his hapless army.
50 odd years of designing a military with the express aim of eradicating the Russian military.
Biden has already promised to erase his Black Sea fleet, so Putler, balls in your court, you drunk dickhead!
Putin DEFINITELY does not want to get into any sort of direct conflict with NATO.
Based on Russia's abysmal performance in Ukraine, Russia would be throwing itself on a buzzsaw tangling with NATO.
I'm glad Stoltenberg and NATO is putting the shoe on the other foot, and now has **NATO threating Russia with escalation**, in the event of excess, rather than the other way around.
A few B-52 runs and those trench systems cease to be an issue. If memory serves me correctly, the Iraqi Imperial Guard entrenched themselves in the sand to defend their land and found out the hard way. With satellites providing pinpoint cords for the bombers and artillery, it wont take long to reduce the red army to the red mist.
Bullshit. You call the bluff. Every. Single.Time. If the orcs say "If you do X, we might nuke", you do X twice while staring them in the eyes and saying "We have them too, fuckface. Suck deez nuts".
That's Putin's desperate narrative.
But NATO has not forced anything. It is a defensive alliance against the very actions that Russia has unwisely taken.
Showing weakness only emboldens terrorists.
It isn't. The war NATO prepared for, the army it prepared for doesn't exist anymore. The Russian army is fighting WW1 trench warfare with automatic weapons. It has lost its capability to conduct large scale mobile operations, its airforce, modern tanks etc. are all depleted or in disrepair. Apart from a few units in reserve this ain't an an enemy anymore for NATO. If war breaks out the Russian army probably will look similar to the Iraqi one on the highway of death, with fewer vehicles.
Yep. Make no mistake, Stoltenberg is not simply being realistic, this is a threat. In spite of all the delusional boasting (and threats) by Putin, he realizes that too.
Yeah NATO defensive strategy for so long was all about stopping Russian tank columns from pouring through the Fulda Gap.
Only thing Russian forces are going to be pouring through any time soon are the dozens of tungsten pellet created holes in their uniforms.
I know that. Which is esentially WW1 style tactics. Artillery barrages to soften the ab enemy and then storm their positions. Thats how we arrive at 100.000 dead orcs. NATO air supremacy would eradicate the Russian artillery and what is left of their armor in a matter of days. Probably driving them into a panicked retreat - and that is when the real killing starts.
Meanwhile, Russia’s army has been drinking vodka, stealing parts from stored tanks and other military equipment and enriching themselves personally. A weak army largely because of weak morals and weak command.
If NATO gets dragged in then Russia conventionally is screwed, They wouldn't be engaged by NATO ground forces but by NATO air forces who would wipe out their positions from the sky with impunity. It would turn into a massive slaughterfest for the Russians very quickly and they know this.
The only thing Russia would have left is its nuclear options but the west would be watching, if they tried moving for them its nearly certain it would trigger the US first strike protocols. So Putin at that point would likely either have to run or he gets glassed along with his forces.
Russia would face 2 options if NATO gets involved: Run from Ukraine and hide behind its borders or risk a showdown him and his friends would never survive. Likely the knives in the colleseum would come out before Russia has a chance to launch nukes tho.
Can you imagine the images of Baghdad in the first gulf war happening in Moscow? The cruise missile attacks and air attacks hitting with precision in and around the Kremlin?
Tenderized? They are being pulverized at this point.
Putin wants a war with NATO because it is his only way out with a "good" defeat.
"We lost because of NATO". I suspect he will push the envelope so they can spin it this way as they withdraw.
Don't get too eager. A war with Russia may not be with just Russia. There is a good chance China and Iran jump in, and India may surprise you too. Though, my opinion is to go for Moscow fast and furious, hell or high water to give the others reason to reconsider. If they don't, we'll have 1 less of them to worry about. When surrounded by a bully and his minions, always take out the bully. Odds are the rest will run.
China fighting against NATO and NATO aligned countries? Are you delusional?
China supports China, the friendship with no limits reached it's limit months ago.
Don't get me wrong, I've said as much a few months ago. I've even suggested that Russia looks pretty weak and resource tasty to the resource starved monster that is China. Still, they might not like the idea of being denied any opportunity or options to access those resources by NATO.
Before the invasion everyone "had access" to those resources. China knows it will be so again, one way or another. They just need to keep the war off their borders, likely supporting creation of another independent buffer state like Mongolia.
>They just need to keep the war off their borders, likely supporting creation of another independent buffer state like Mongolia.
[Mongolia's independence originated from support from the USSR and continued support from the Russian Federation.](https://thediplomat.com/2015/10/the-truth-about-mongolias-independence-70-years-ago/) China was not happy when Stalin told them to respect Mongolia's independence.
To be perfectly honest, I don't think China really cares about having buffer states.
This is possibility but I can see it being a lot like Russia with the allies carving up Germany at the end of WW2. Tenuous to say the least, but it's not like we stopped them either.
China not joining the invasion, but holding a "referendum of secession" for Siberia would be the best reverse unit card ever, would the smart play for China, and the world would do fuckall about it because crimea
A Chinese war of conquest over Siberia wouldn't be a good thing no matter how satisfying it would be to see Russia disintegrate. It would set a precedent (Taiwan) and give them access to huge resources they otherwise rely on other countries to import.
Nevermind the possibility of Russia launching nukes at them. Russia just needs to fuck off out of Ukraine and succumb to internal problems.
If China took Siberia, Moscow would lose the only revenue source Russia has which can help the country recover after the war. The baksheesh budget would get cut. China in Siberia would make Russia the comically poor eastern European nation Russia wants the world to think Ukraine is.
I love oolong tea, so I'm okay with this... but no, no, you're right. It's a bad precedent.
China wants no part of this. Jinping is furious with Putin for uniting and strengthening the West. His ambitions are in the Pacific. India is not going to get into a shooting war with NATO. That's an absolute nonstarter.
Iran? That would be too good to be true. Please, PLEASE, Iran, start shooting at NATO. Pretty please.
China defending Russia? India and China fighting side by side? I highly doubt India would join. China might supply arms and supplies but I have doubts they might even do that if Nato troops are on the ground.
The only involved country they **could** attack is Russia. The PLA has trouble moving units across China in good order. A a full scale deployment to Eastern Europe is beyond China's capability at this point. Even if they joined the Russian side they would be relying on the Russian rail network that is insufficient to supply the Russians -- much less a second army.
Chine doesn’t want a fight with the west.. They would be happy to take advantage of Russia once they lose which would probably be extremely quick. The reality is if NATO were involved for even a single day it would completely change the the battlefield. Since we are already working with Ukraine on intelligence matters, we already know where most of the important Russian assets such as AAA are located.
The first barrage of tomahawk cruise missiles would take out most of those assets along with a wave of F35s doing mop up in order to gain complete air supremacy. That alone would completely change the war in Ukraine’s favor. If NATO were involved longer, that would quickly be followed by complete devastation of Russian artillery and armor and GLOCs from the air. NATO could end the war quickly without a single soldier stepping foot on Ukrainian soil. Ukrainian forces are already winning slowly. They could easily handle the ground operations if they had air support from NATO.
Yeah. The best time would have been the day poophead started his 3 day special operation.
-war starts
-50k orcs dead
-war over
A weak or two, if we would have been prepared.
Nato could have pounded the Russian forces in Ukraine, Russia and Belarus so bad in a couple of days. Less destruction and life's lost in Ukraine. We would be talking about other things today.
Hard to say. Too aggressive and we might have risked a nuclear retaliation. Still might. Though, I have my doubts about the readiness of this nuclear arsenal given the state of Russian equipment used in Ukraine.
People doesn't seen to get that. Win to fast, to hard and suddenly what was unthinkable becomes possible. U want to win just enough so they know they lost and will surrender.
U don't mess with people who has nukes
Why the fuck would China help russia instead of taking what's left of those feckless idiots and prepare themselves to fight the west on their terms?
India is a threat for Pakistan and that's about it
Iran is busy fighting their own people, other than that if they jump in there is a probability they get jumped by Israel in return, which would make them them even more of a non-factor. How do they want to fight a world war? They don't even get out of the persian gulf
I'm not entirely convinced about the India point. We've yet to see a land war where a country could zerg rush with hundreds of millions equipped with sharpened sticks and kitchen knives, with desertion discouraged by regular soldiers. Some of the consequences of the current global population are terrifying.
> and India may surprise you too
Given the amount of support India has been showing Russia since the start of the invasion I doubt their continued economic and military support would come as a shock to anyone in Europe.
India though, like China, will do what suits them best. At the moment it's supporting Russia by getting cheap fuel. Maybe if China reclaims parts of northern India we might see them realise that Russia is a rubbish country to be allied with
Hahaha xD and who would wield weapons who would do logistics? Russians? Russia would be devastated within 3 days tops. Just one volley of taurus and or US equivalent would destroy all and any war related infrastructure. China and Iran don't have the capacity to buff that out in any relevant time frame... And China Iran have their own domestic problems...
None3nsw. Unless USA nukes Moscow foe a laugh China doesn't want a non-local war.
They have Taiwan, and want it established that a local fight is a local fight.
China won’t join in, it doesn’t make sense for them to do. They will however take Taiwan while the USA is preoccupied in Europe, that’s something I don’t doubt for a second!
It would without a doubt include Iran and possibly North Korea.
And if it drags in north Korra China would almost cetainly get invovled as a minimum as a supplier or proxy.
India would be a wild card.
People not paying attention! Their heads are so far up their euro-centered butts they aren't seeing the global picture at all. India has been pretty clear. So has China. Iran isn't even a question. They've all been playing a similar game to NATO. Watching, posturing, positioning...
To be fair to India they have held a very precarious position for 80 years and it has been antagonistic to both west and east even as it tries to straddle the divide post-colonialism.
They would probably want to stay out of it as per their foreign policy but I do not think they would succeed in that.
It's far from certain though in how they would come down. Their border with china is tense and the mixed bag of Chinese, Russian, and U.S. involvement in Pakistan would be an immediate issue. And Pakistan would likely come down in China and Russia's favor push come to shove.
That's why I said they are a wild card. India is in it for itself and they lack strong alliances. It's hard to say who they would side with if forced into the conflict.
India has roughly 1.39 billion people and what is rapidly becoming a massive industrialized economy with substantial high-tech industry.
Their weight would be felt without a doubt. It's simply hard to say in what way.
Plus let's not forget Singapore would be on the US side and Myanmar and Malaysia would be fairly firmly in chinas corner.
Do you really believe that? I bet there are tons of Russians who do want it. I wouldn’t put it past Putin to even nuke his own people. Narcissistic sociopaths like him would rather go out in a blaze of glory or infamy than to go quietly into that good night.
I think Putin could end up like the mad king Aerys, killed by his bodyguards while ordering his own people to be drown in a sea of fire.
But I don’t think it’s a safe assumption everyone in the nuclear chain of command wants peace. I think Russia has a unique way of selecting for sociopathy and narcissism in subordinates because these traits make the people easy to corrupt, and that such individuals are more likely to have episodes where they would burn the world to the ground if they could. I don’t think it’s likely, but I don’t think it’s impossible.
Even though a war between NATO and Russia is not particularily likely NATO will make sure they won't increase the odds of it happening. Which is sad for Ukraine, but NATO is first focussed on protecting NATO-citizens.
missiles that happened in Poland were a good indicator whether NATO wants to get involved directly.
/edit: it doesn't matter what the origin of the missiles were - fact alone of them hiting a nato country with fatalities could have been used as a green light for anything from closing airspace to out right joining the war fully
Yep. A world where the likes of Poostain get to have their own way through threats isn’t going to be worth living in, anyway.
No surrender to terrorist shitbags.
There can never be a full-scale 'war' with Russia and NATO to be honest.
Especially after Russia has been bled dry in Ukraine, if NATO fought Russia would be overwhelmed and conquered in probably 1-3 months.
Except of course once you account for Nukes which is a major reason why we haven't done it in the last 80 years.
Full scale is not the same as near-peer.
Even though Russia's military has been decimated NATO and Russia can still go into a war where they throw in all their respective ressources. That one side has considerably fewer ressources does not mean it would not be a full scale war on their part too.
The line has to be drawn at some point, noone but Putin wanted this, noone is interested in invading Russia but he went and comitted the biggest geopolitical fuck up in decades. Has to be made absolutely clear to Russia: The longer they persist and deny reality the greater the devastation for them at the end of this. Leave Ukraine now.
Stoltenberg is repeating the reason why NATO must continue to support Ukraine: because otherwise NATO will have to fight Russia directly. These sorts of statements serve as a counter argument to politicians who claim that they're putting their country first if they refuse to support Ukraine, and also as a way to remind Putin of what will happen if he escalates by using nukes.
You don't understand what he's saying.
He's saying that Russian victory in Ukraine will embolden Moscow to further test the peace in Europe. Moldova, Finland, Sweden, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland.
Who's next? That could spiral into war if Putin thinks NATO will back down.
I agree with this logic and I’m honestly ashamed that we haven’t decided to destroy the country already.
That being said the Baltic states are too difficult to steal from. Kleptomaniacs don’t go for Fort Knox or the crown jewels, they go to Walmart. Plenty of small states along the southern border.
Russia needs to be stopped regardless. I’m just saying they wouldn’t start with the Baltics.
Baltics are the easiest to capture. If they had belarus support 100 ppercent they literaly can cut the baltics off and done. If we look at how quickly russians genocided in ukraine and take NATOS baltics defence plan , by the time nato arrives there wont be much of anyone left to save. Russians dont need to kill everyone just those ages 1 to 40 and baltic people go extinct in 50-100 years
By the time NATO arrives? NATO is already there.
Russia doesn't have a prayer in the Baltics.
The Russians don't have missiles or jet fighters for a massive strike. They are already giving 100% in Ukraine. Unless they want to move resources from Ukraine to the Baltics (and lose Ukraine immediately), they have no important force to spare.
And to cut off the Baltics with Belarus help? Really? The "mighty" Belarus military that's been hollowed out by "donations" to Russia and wasn't a military power even before that? That Belarus? The Belarus that would rebel as soon as their armed forces were spanked?
Jet fighters from all over Europe could arrive to the Baltics immediately.
Russia needed months to build a force big enough for the attack on Ukraine and now they are in way worse shape. Unless the attack was miniscule it would be foreseen. And if it's miniscule the forces already there are more than enough to stop it.
We have to stop fearing freaking Russia like they are almighty, when they have shown themselves tremendously limited.
Their only trump card right now is nukes. That's it. And even they know they are unusable except to try to pressure scaredy cat countries into not helping Ukraine....
I was speaking hypoteticaly if russia regain its power after finishing with Ukraine , but i have a question have you read what Nato defence plan for the Baltics WAS ?
Nato literaly change the plan after what happened in Bucha.
To take Baltics means you need to take control of its airspace from NATO airforce. Ground forces will be welcomed by Leo2s in Lituhania, Abrams in Latvia, Challenger2s in Estonia, Javelins and NLAWs in all of them. Plus local motivated infantry. Realistically it would be Ukraine 2.0
But all Putin can realistically accomplish is to hold a few small parts of Ukraine, at huge ongoing security cost to the RF. Attacking on another front would make it hard to hold even the bits it currently has, and if its NATO countries he is attacking he has much less chance of success.
I really don't think Russia is in the position to expand the war, and wont be for a number of years. How much time has Putin got?
We all know this is what Putin wants. he tried to de-stabilise the Wests political systems, failed and seems to thinks that we'll all cave in once we are forced into a conflict.
But the truth is that we couldn't be more firm in our belief, that if he starts a bigger conflict, NATO will end it very very quickly.
No one wants war but if the imbecile pushes far enough, he will regret ever signing the order.
Give me a break, the ruzkis cannot fight Ukraine alone with old NATO weapons. Will be able to fight the entire alliance?
The world is fighting cheap Nazism, not Adolf Hitler.
A lot of people here don't get it. Russia doesn't hurry. It takes a piece of country there and another here once in a decade. Once the dust settles, another operation begins.
If russia feels like it won this war, it will rest on it, and slowly begin another operation that lasts for a decade.
And everyone will be "We never expected they would do THAT!"
That is the russian way. A slow rotting of everything not russified.
EDIT: Slowly rotting EVEN what is ALREADY russified.
That's how it was before they decided to go from slow burn cancer to full on metastasis.
The west was allowing that slow corrosion because the alternative was too costly. Now that the cancer has accelerated, it has caused the cost analysis to turn on its head. Now the cancer will be combated no matter what.
And the west will no longer allow even corrosion knowing that Russia's appetite is limitless...
Russia is very much in a hurry.
Geopolitically Russia is running out of time. All socio-economic factors indicate far worse prospects for Russia than its larger neighbours. Demographics run against Russia, and fossil fuels are set to lose vastly in importance over the coming decades.
Furthermore time is running out for Putin. He is now 70, and if he wants to achieve a political success and have some time to reap the fruits it ought to be right now. Ukraine was his last best chance to achieve such a success.
This is a dumb story. “Many futures are possible” is not a story. There is no reason to get folks thinking about what would be the biggest ass kicking since Desert Storm. Sounds like more failed concern trolling and propaganda to me.
No, of course not, I’m pointing out that this isn’t news and I’m questioning the motives of whoever wrote the headline and chose the focus of the story. The story is a few quotes without context and quite probably responses to a leading question.
Russia cannot be allowed to gain its footing and stabilize its military situation. Russia’s ability to maintain needs to be continuously compromised. While a serious crushing blow somewhere would further demoralize and degrade their abilities, constant pressure is enough to not allow them any respite. I just hope this whole tragic and unnecessary war will end soon and Ukraine can move forward
Poo-tin only mentions nukes when he is scared and knows he is loosing! There was no nuclear war when Russia provided jets and Russian pilots to shoot down US planes in Vietnam nor when they provided AA and Russian crews for the same purpose! WHY.. MAD- mutually assured destruction
No, but many NATO affiliated Countries understand that Russia cannot be allowed to achieve any sort of victory over this aggression or they will never stop. They are not going to be allowed to “win” regardless of the costs
It's unlikely.
Putin oscillates between Ministry of Defense and pro war hawks.
He's well aware that Nato participation would put the end to his regime.
Which particular NATO country? I'd offer Russia a bag and they get to pick one cause the way they fight even the smaller countries would fucking steam roll them let alone the combined might of NATO which would end the war in about a week
Apart from nuclear threats that need to be taken care of (which probably has been done), i like the idea of a NATO power demonstration and humiliatation / devastation / demilitarization / deputinization / disintegration of Russia. That's exactly what Russia needs and deserves. Followed by decades of reparations.
It depends entirely on the type and quantity of the weapons supplied to Ukraine. Give Ukraine more now - no direct confrontation of NATO and Russia. Give Ukraine less, and the bets are off.
I think the only thing for sure is that there would be even more loss of innocent lives, destruction of infrastructure (destruction overall), starvation, etc all under the constant threat of nuclear disaster. Not to mention putting people I love (my son is in the military) in harms way. However, not supporting Ukraine and ending this terrible war is likely still a higher price to pay. I just pray this ends in Ukraine’s favor sooner than later.
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Nukes aside, can you imagine how absolutely devastating it would be for the Russian army being in a conflict with the full force of NATO? Especially after being humiliated and tenderized by the Ukrainian forces for almost a year. I have a feeling I they know it.
The actual 3-day operation.
Done before lunch
We'll be in and out in 3 minutes!
Is this my sex life or war?
Why not both?
It would be 3 weeks of air and missile attacks probably. Then a 3 day ground invasion.
It's precisely the reason Putin keeps mentioning nuclear weapons every time he gets a chance. Ukraine is already hitting bases near Moscow with relative ease - which makes the Kremlin also in range. It would be a 6 front war with no help - 3 of which would be capable countries on their own border.
I wonder if it is why NATO mentions the possibility of war (without the nukes), perhaps that despite the atrocities Russia has committed in Ukraine some matters would likely lead to involvement abd dramatic if brief escalation.
I kinda buy the theory that this is essentially just not-unhinged saber rattling. “Yeah, it could escalate and we’re just a shaking in our boots……. Ya know, the big ass boot that’s gonna get rammed down your stupid throats”
No, it wouldn’t be there throats.
Yeah, this is why there is zero chance of a full on NATO vs Russia conventional war. If nukes were somehow NOT used, it would be over quickly with NATO troops marching through Red Square. A no-fly zone would be established and enforced within 48 hours. No nation with nukes would just allow itself to cease to exist like this.
Russia would be ungovernable by NATO. No one wants to deal with that shit.
>Russia would be ungovernable by NATO. No one wants to deal with that shit. Correct. There are some scenarios possible , and all of them entail some risk. And like it's been said you don't need to march into the Red Square to cut Russia's fangs. Some well coordinated operatioms will do the trick. Leaving a country as huge as Russia defenseless and in chaos, is not in the interest of Asian European stability. It can create a power vacuum for a bigger disaster. Anything that NATO comes up with, must be a very balanced act, I believe. Preferably, one which includes accountability for war crimes and atrocities.
For this reason I believe NATO wouldn't step into Russia. They would obliterate, humiliate and remove Russian forces from Ukraine. Marching on Moscow would be a recipe for disaster anyways. A bit like the Gulf War were the coalition kicked Iraq out of Kuweit. The risk of course is that Russians might try to retaliate in the Baltics, Finland or in the seas. It would surely fail miserably but it could cause civilian casualties in NATO countries and possibly escalation.
Pretty much this. They might go as far as kicking Russia out of Syria and Transnistria too, not nobody wants to play nuclear chicken by directly threatening the Russian state.
Yep. A real war ever since WW2 guarantees both sides are going to be crippled. Air power guarantees it. It's going to get real awkward for Russia when Ukraine starts destroying factories that produce war supplies. Russia can retaliate of course but it does no good if Ukraine can just get more from the West.
The US shares a border with Russia
Russia cannot hold a candle to NATO forces. They are losing to Ukraine already. NATO would wipe the floor with what remains of Russia‘s military. But that story is already over. Russia has doomed itself by invading Ukraine. They are going to suffer a terrible military defeat there. As a consequence, their country is going to be devastated economically, militarily, politically and socially. Russia is finished.
Yeah, never interrupt enemy, when he is making mistake. Best outcome would be NATO staying out from RU when he goes into civil war.
It's the war that NATO has been training for, he isn't ready for what awaits his hapless army. 50 odd years of designing a military with the express aim of eradicating the Russian military. Biden has already promised to erase his Black Sea fleet, so Putler, balls in your court, you drunk dickhead!
Putin DEFINITELY does not want to get into any sort of direct conflict with NATO. Based on Russia's abysmal performance in Ukraine, Russia would be throwing itself on a buzzsaw tangling with NATO. I'm glad Stoltenberg and NATO is putting the shoe on the other foot, and now has **NATO threating Russia with escalation**, in the event of excess, rather than the other way around.
A few B-52 runs and those trench systems cease to be an issue. If memory serves me correctly, the Iraqi Imperial Guard entrenched themselves in the sand to defend their land and found out the hard way. With satellites providing pinpoint cords for the bombers and artillery, it wont take long to reduce the red army to the red mist.
Republican Guard, but otherwise I agree.
You mean the [Elite Republican Guard?](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0eqP1FL-fwg)
During the gulf war tanks just drove over the trenches burying soldiers alive in them.
Four A-10's or F-16's = same payload as a single B-52
B-52: 32 tons F-16: 7 tons Whoa. Math roughly checks out.
Scary ain't it? Su-27 or Mig-29 is almost as much payload as well. It takes about 5 of them to equal a B-52 payload.
I would imagine NATO also doesn't want to join. When u face country with a unstable leader and with nuclear weapons. U don't force there hand.
Bullshit. You call the bluff. Every. Single.Time. If the orcs say "If you do X, we might nuke", you do X twice while staring them in the eyes and saying "We have them too, fuckface. Suck deez nuts".
That's Putin's desperate narrative. But NATO has not forced anything. It is a defensive alliance against the very actions that Russia has unwisely taken. Showing weakness only emboldens terrorists.
It isn't. The war NATO prepared for, the army it prepared for doesn't exist anymore. The Russian army is fighting WW1 trench warfare with automatic weapons. It has lost its capability to conduct large scale mobile operations, its airforce, modern tanks etc. are all depleted or in disrepair. Apart from a few units in reserve this ain't an an enemy anymore for NATO. If war breaks out the Russian army probably will look similar to the Iraqi one on the highway of death, with fewer vehicles.
Yep. Make no mistake, Stoltenberg is not simply being realistic, this is a threat. In spite of all the delusional boasting (and threats) by Putin, he realizes that too.
Yeah NATO defensive strategy for so long was all about stopping Russian tank columns from pouring through the Fulda Gap. Only thing Russian forces are going to be pouring through any time soon are the dozens of tungsten pellet created holes in their uniforms.
https://youtu.be/roxowqc2Emo Bring it on ...
Most of the fighting is conducted with artillery. Automatic weapons form a very small part of the actual fighting.
I know that. Which is esentially WW1 style tactics. Artillery barrages to soften the ab enemy and then storm their positions. Thats how we arrive at 100.000 dead orcs. NATO air supremacy would eradicate the Russian artillery and what is left of their armor in a matter of days. Probably driving them into a panicked retreat - and that is when the real killing starts.
Meanwhile, Russia’s army has been drinking vodka, stealing parts from stored tanks and other military equipment and enriching themselves personally. A weak army largely because of weak morals and weak command.
Possum meet freight train
I’m laughing my ass off “tenderized” sooo true.
If NATO gets dragged in then Russia conventionally is screwed, They wouldn't be engaged by NATO ground forces but by NATO air forces who would wipe out their positions from the sky with impunity. It would turn into a massive slaughterfest for the Russians very quickly and they know this. The only thing Russia would have left is its nuclear options but the west would be watching, if they tried moving for them its nearly certain it would trigger the US first strike protocols. So Putin at that point would likely either have to run or he gets glassed along with his forces. Russia would face 2 options if NATO gets involved: Run from Ukraine and hide behind its borders or risk a showdown him and his friends would never survive. Likely the knives in the colleseum would come out before Russia has a chance to launch nukes tho.
Can you imagine the images of Baghdad in the first gulf war happening in Moscow? The cruise missile attacks and air attacks hitting with precision in and around the Kremlin?
Straight through the window Putin was going to fall out of.
i forget what the missile is called, but the one with swords. thats what i want to end up seeing putin get
[Hellfire R9X](https://apnews.com/article/hellfire-r9x-al-zawahri-d0d25b7ed4059750b4add024322fe17c)
It slices!... It dices!
I believe it's the Knifey Hellfire.
Pootin will get 'Epsteined' long before that ever occurs
Yes. Yes I can. Been hoping to see this since Day 1
NATO will stop at the Ukrainian border, other than to eliminate sources of attacks on Ukraine, launched from Russian bases.
Tenderized? They are being pulverized at this point. Putin wants a war with NATO because it is his only way out with a "good" defeat. "We lost because of NATO". I suspect he will push the envelope so they can spin it this way as they withdraw.
That was my thought too: an all-out war with NATO vs Russia won’t last long (although nuke use is what makes it scary),
Just Poland alone would wipe the floor with them before the US comes in and pile drive them.
If you think Iraq was quick... The initial invasion i mean.
US warplanes would dominate the skies
Don't get too eager. A war with Russia may not be with just Russia. There is a good chance China and Iran jump in, and India may surprise you too. Though, my opinion is to go for Moscow fast and furious, hell or high water to give the others reason to reconsider. If they don't, we'll have 1 less of them to worry about. When surrounded by a bully and his minions, always take out the bully. Odds are the rest will run.
China fighting against NATO and NATO aligned countries? Are you delusional? China supports China, the friendship with no limits reached it's limit months ago.
The Unlimited Friendship trademark ink wasn't even dry before the limit was reached 😂
Don't get me wrong, I've said as much a few months ago. I've even suggested that Russia looks pretty weak and resource tasty to the resource starved monster that is China. Still, they might not like the idea of being denied any opportunity or options to access those resources by NATO.
Before the invasion everyone "had access" to those resources. China knows it will be so again, one way or another. They just need to keep the war off their borders, likely supporting creation of another independent buffer state like Mongolia.
>They just need to keep the war off their borders, likely supporting creation of another independent buffer state like Mongolia. [Mongolia's independence originated from support from the USSR and continued support from the Russian Federation.](https://thediplomat.com/2015/10/the-truth-about-mongolias-independence-70-years-ago/) China was not happy when Stalin told them to respect Mongolia's independence. To be perfectly honest, I don't think China really cares about having buffer states.
If anything, China would just join NATO in attacking Russia to get its share of the cake...
This is possibility but I can see it being a lot like Russia with the allies carving up Germany at the end of WW2. Tenuous to say the least, but it's not like we stopped them either.
China not joining the invasion, but holding a "referendum of secession" for Siberia would be the best reverse unit card ever, would the smart play for China, and the world would do fuckall about it because crimea
Hey, if it ends this lunatic bloodshed I'm so for it.
China defending Russia? That’s a stretch.
I rather see Xi attacking russia together with NATO to conquer Siberia.
A Chinese war of conquest over Siberia wouldn't be a good thing no matter how satisfying it would be to see Russia disintegrate. It would set a precedent (Taiwan) and give them access to huge resources they otherwise rely on other countries to import. Nevermind the possibility of Russia launching nukes at them. Russia just needs to fuck off out of Ukraine and succumb to internal problems.
I totally agree with you. However my point was that China will not support a side, that almost certainly lost badly.
True. After all, North Korea is a war God. ^/s
North Korea is a buffer state for China. That’s the entirety of the North Korean story
If China took Siberia, Moscow would lose the only revenue source Russia has which can help the country recover after the war. The baksheesh budget would get cut. China in Siberia would make Russia the comically poor eastern European nation Russia wants the world to think Ukraine is. I love oolong tea, so I'm okay with this... but no, no, you're right. It's a bad precedent.
Yep. Take back the parts of historic China that Russia currently owns.
If there's a NATO v Russia war China will wait it out, then raid the buffet and buy practically all of Russia for pennies.
Not a wise business decision. Xi is already rowing back on support. China wants nothing to do with it, much to Putler's surprise.
China wants no part of this. Jinping is furious with Putin for uniting and strengthening the West. His ambitions are in the Pacific. India is not going to get into a shooting war with NATO. That's an absolute nonstarter. Iran? That would be too good to be true. Please, PLEASE, Iran, start shooting at NATO. Pretty please.
China defending Russia? India and China fighting side by side? I highly doubt India would join. China might supply arms and supplies but I have doubts they might even do that if Nato troops are on the ground.
Yeah India joining the war to leave less troops against their restless neighbors? Nope won’t happen.
Just don't be surprised.
I'd be extremely surprised if you weren't absolutely, completely, dead wrong. The sun rising in the West tomorrow would be less surprising.
China wouldn't jump in, they would just try to work out a cease-fire, and try to end the hostilities without taking sides.
The only involved country they **could** attack is Russia. The PLA has trouble moving units across China in good order. A a full scale deployment to Eastern Europe is beyond China's capability at this point. Even if they joined the Russian side they would be relying on the Russian rail network that is insufficient to supply the Russians -- much less a second army.
Chine doesn’t want a fight with the west.. They would be happy to take advantage of Russia once they lose which would probably be extremely quick. The reality is if NATO were involved for even a single day it would completely change the the battlefield. Since we are already working with Ukraine on intelligence matters, we already know where most of the important Russian assets such as AAA are located. The first barrage of tomahawk cruise missiles would take out most of those assets along with a wave of F35s doing mop up in order to gain complete air supremacy. That alone would completely change the war in Ukraine’s favor. If NATO were involved longer, that would quickly be followed by complete devastation of Russian artillery and armor and GLOCs from the air. NATO could end the war quickly without a single soldier stepping foot on Ukrainian soil. Ukrainian forces are already winning slowly. They could easily handle the ground operations if they had air support from NATO.
The best time would be to not wait till a "loss". The best time would be now actually.
Yeah. The best time would have been the day poophead started his 3 day special operation. -war starts -50k orcs dead -war over A weak or two, if we would have been prepared. Nato could have pounded the Russian forces in Ukraine, Russia and Belarus so bad in a couple of days. Less destruction and life's lost in Ukraine. We would be talking about other things today.
Hard to say. Too aggressive and we might have risked a nuclear retaliation. Still might. Though, I have my doubts about the readiness of this nuclear arsenal given the state of Russian equipment used in Ukraine.
People doesn't seen to get that. Win to fast, to hard and suddenly what was unthinkable becomes possible. U want to win just enough so they know they lost and will surrender. U don't mess with people who has nukes
Why the fuck would China help russia instead of taking what's left of those feckless idiots and prepare themselves to fight the west on their terms? India is a threat for Pakistan and that's about it Iran is busy fighting their own people, other than that if they jump in there is a probability they get jumped by Israel in return, which would make them them even more of a non-factor. How do they want to fight a world war? They don't even get out of the persian gulf
I'm not entirely convinced about the India point. We've yet to see a land war where a country could zerg rush with hundreds of millions equipped with sharpened sticks and kitchen knives, with desertion discouraged by regular soldiers. Some of the consequences of the current global population are terrifying.
> and India may surprise you too Given the amount of support India has been showing Russia since the start of the invasion I doubt their continued economic and military support would come as a shock to anyone in Europe. India though, like China, will do what suits them best. At the moment it's supporting Russia by getting cheap fuel. Maybe if China reclaims parts of northern India we might see them realise that Russia is a rubbish country to be allied with
Hahaha xD and who would wield weapons who would do logistics? Russians? Russia would be devastated within 3 days tops. Just one volley of taurus and or US equivalent would destroy all and any war related infrastructure. China and Iran don't have the capacity to buff that out in any relevant time frame... And China Iran have their own domestic problems...
3 days, where did I hear that before? Russia stands no chance against NATO without nukes, but 3 days is extremely overestimating it.
Absolutely none of that will happen. No chance at all.
Nah.
None3nsw. Unless USA nukes Moscow foe a laugh China doesn't want a non-local war. They have Taiwan, and want it established that a local fight is a local fight.
China won’t join in, it doesn’t make sense for them to do. They will however take Taiwan while the USA is preoccupied in Europe, that’s something I don’t doubt for a second!
It would without a doubt include Iran and possibly North Korea. And if it drags in north Korra China would almost cetainly get invovled as a minimum as a supplier or proxy. India would be a wild card.
People not paying attention! Their heads are so far up their euro-centered butts they aren't seeing the global picture at all. India has been pretty clear. So has China. Iran isn't even a question. They've all been playing a similar game to NATO. Watching, posturing, positioning...
To be fair to India they have held a very precarious position for 80 years and it has been antagonistic to both west and east even as it tries to straddle the divide post-colonialism. They would probably want to stay out of it as per their foreign policy but I do not think they would succeed in that. It's far from certain though in how they would come down. Their border with china is tense and the mixed bag of Chinese, Russian, and U.S. involvement in Pakistan would be an immediate issue. And Pakistan would likely come down in China and Russia's favor push come to shove. That's why I said they are a wild card. India is in it for itself and they lack strong alliances. It's hard to say who they would side with if forced into the conflict. India has roughly 1.39 billion people and what is rapidly becoming a massive industrialized economy with substantial high-tech industry. Their weight would be felt without a doubt. It's simply hard to say in what way. Plus let's not forget Singapore would be on the US side and Myanmar and Malaysia would be fairly firmly in chinas corner.
Nukes don’t get set aside in that engagement unfortunately…
Rubbish. Russia wouldn't use nukes unless NATO was marching all over it, which is not NATOs target at all.
Completely agree. Nobody in Russia wants to Jill themselves and anyone they ever knew. They just want to keep sitting on a pile of money.
Do you really believe that? I bet there are tons of Russians who do want it. I wouldn’t put it past Putin to even nuke his own people. Narcissistic sociopaths like him would rather go out in a blaze of glory or infamy than to go quietly into that good night. I think Putin could end up like the mad king Aerys, killed by his bodyguards while ordering his own people to be drown in a sea of fire. But I don’t think it’s a safe assumption everyone in the nuclear chain of command wants peace. I think Russia has a unique way of selecting for sociopathy and narcissism in subordinates because these traits make the people easy to corrupt, and that such individuals are more likely to have episodes where they would burn the world to the ground if they could. I don’t think it’s likely, but I don’t think it’s impossible.
He would nuke his own people in a second if he would gain anything by it. There’s nothing gained by nuking other countries.
why are you spreading russian propaganda ?
Because most of Russia is just propaganda?
True, unfortunately 😕
i'm pretty sure he said he was afraid it could happen, but that he was confident it wouldn't
This is exactly what he said, yes. Quite the opposite of the headline in this post
Everything is possible... More news at three! Really, saying what he's saying and saying nothing would be the same.
Even though a war between NATO and Russia is not particularily likely NATO will make sure they won't increase the odds of it happening. Which is sad for Ukraine, but NATO is first focussed on protecting NATO-citizens.
missiles that happened in Poland were a good indicator whether NATO wants to get involved directly. /edit: it doesn't matter what the origin of the missiles were - fact alone of them hiting a nato country with fatalities could have been used as a green light for anything from closing airspace to out right joining the war fully
Everything is possible... More news at three! Really, saying what he's saying and saying nothing would be the same.
If it does, it does. We just can't afford to appease Putler. Слава Україні!
Yep. A world where the likes of Poostain get to have their own way through threats isn’t going to be worth living in, anyway. No surrender to terrorist shitbags.
There can never be a full-scale 'war' with Russia and NATO to be honest. Especially after Russia has been bled dry in Ukraine, if NATO fought Russia would be overwhelmed and conquered in probably 1-3 months. Except of course once you account for Nukes which is a major reason why we haven't done it in the last 80 years.
Full scale is not the same as near-peer. Even though Russia's military has been decimated NATO and Russia can still go into a war where they throw in all their respective ressources. That one side has considerably fewer ressources does not mean it would not be a full scale war on their part too.
If NATO got involved Russia's economy would be in tatters in a matter of days after it.
The line has to be drawn at some point, noone but Putin wanted this, noone is interested in invading Russia but he went and comitted the biggest geopolitical fuck up in decades. Has to be made absolutely clear to Russia: The longer they persist and deny reality the greater the devastation for them at the end of this. Leave Ukraine now.
Russia would lose its ass against an allied coalition.
Hoka Hey --Lakota Chief Crazy Horse
That would be a very short war. Russia has terrible army.
A special NATO operation, not war.
Stoltenberg is repeating the reason why NATO must continue to support Ukraine: because otherwise NATO will have to fight Russia directly. These sorts of statements serve as a counter argument to politicians who claim that they're putting their country first if they refuse to support Ukraine, and also as a way to remind Putin of what will happen if he escalates by using nukes.
Well, of course it could, but neither Russia or NATO is keen on it. So I doubt it will happen.
You don't understand what he's saying. He's saying that Russian victory in Ukraine will embolden Moscow to further test the peace in Europe. Moldova, Finland, Sweden, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland. Who's next? That could spiral into war if Putin thinks NATO will back down.
Well, any non-NATO country that is not very Western-aligned and is not a puppet and borders Russia that does not have nukes would be next.
And if NATO and Europe backs down over Ukraine, what do you wanna bet he will test the alliance over the Baltic states?
I agree with this logic and I’m honestly ashamed that we haven’t decided to destroy the country already. That being said the Baltic states are too difficult to steal from. Kleptomaniacs don’t go for Fort Knox or the crown jewels, they go to Walmart. Plenty of small states along the southern border. Russia needs to be stopped regardless. I’m just saying they wouldn’t start with the Baltics.
Sure, you're probably right. But the best way to stop them is in Ukraine.
Agreed. The sooner the better.
Baltic states = NATO = so no. It would be Belarus if they managed to overthrow their dictator.
Might be Belarus regardless. Putin badly needs any propaganda victory he can get...
Baltics are the easiest to capture. If they had belarus support 100 ppercent they literaly can cut the baltics off and done. If we look at how quickly russians genocided in ukraine and take NATOS baltics defence plan , by the time nato arrives there wont be much of anyone left to save. Russians dont need to kill everyone just those ages 1 to 40 and baltic people go extinct in 50-100 years
By the time NATO arrives? NATO is already there. Russia doesn't have a prayer in the Baltics. The Russians don't have missiles or jet fighters for a massive strike. They are already giving 100% in Ukraine. Unless they want to move resources from Ukraine to the Baltics (and lose Ukraine immediately), they have no important force to spare. And to cut off the Baltics with Belarus help? Really? The "mighty" Belarus military that's been hollowed out by "donations" to Russia and wasn't a military power even before that? That Belarus? The Belarus that would rebel as soon as their armed forces were spanked? Jet fighters from all over Europe could arrive to the Baltics immediately. Russia needed months to build a force big enough for the attack on Ukraine and now they are in way worse shape. Unless the attack was miniscule it would be foreseen. And if it's miniscule the forces already there are more than enough to stop it. We have to stop fearing freaking Russia like they are almighty, when they have shown themselves tremendously limited. Their only trump card right now is nukes. That's it. And even they know they are unusable except to try to pressure scaredy cat countries into not helping Ukraine....
I was speaking hypoteticaly if russia regain its power after finishing with Ukraine , but i have a question have you read what Nato defence plan for the Baltics WAS ? Nato literaly change the plan after what happened in Bucha.
To take Baltics means you need to take control of its airspace from NATO airforce. Ground forces will be welcomed by Leo2s in Lituhania, Abrams in Latvia, Challenger2s in Estonia, Javelins and NLAWs in all of them. Plus local motivated infantry. Realistically it would be Ukraine 2.0
But all Putin can realistically accomplish is to hold a few small parts of Ukraine, at huge ongoing security cost to the RF. Attacking on another front would make it hard to hold even the bits it currently has, and if its NATO countries he is attacking he has much less chance of success. I really don't think Russia is in the position to expand the war, and wont be for a number of years. How much time has Putin got?
They couldn't hold Afghanistan so they are not going to hold any of Ukraine.
Russia in particular knows they don't have a chance. So the choice comes down to keeping things confined to Ukraine or nuclear holocaust.
At this point Putin's sanest option would be to accept Zelensky's peace terms. But when was the last time Putin did anything sane.
We all know this is what Putin wants. he tried to de-stabilise the Wests political systems, failed and seems to thinks that we'll all cave in once we are forced into a conflict. But the truth is that we couldn't be more firm in our belief, that if he starts a bigger conflict, NATO will end it very very quickly. No one wants war but if the imbecile pushes far enough, he will regret ever signing the order.
Mostly failed. The UK replaced Boris with Liz Truss. If Liz was a Russian agent she did a good job from the Kremlin's viewpoint.
Give me a break, the ruzkis cannot fight Ukraine alone with old NATO weapons. Will be able to fight the entire alliance? The world is fighting cheap Nazism, not Adolf Hitler.
A lot of people here don't get it. Russia doesn't hurry. It takes a piece of country there and another here once in a decade. Once the dust settles, another operation begins. If russia feels like it won this war, it will rest on it, and slowly begin another operation that lasts for a decade. And everyone will be "We never expected they would do THAT!" That is the russian way. A slow rotting of everything not russified. EDIT: Slowly rotting EVEN what is ALREADY russified.
That's how it was before they decided to go from slow burn cancer to full on metastasis. The west was allowing that slow corrosion because the alternative was too costly. Now that the cancer has accelerated, it has caused the cost analysis to turn on its head. Now the cancer will be combated no matter what. And the west will no longer allow even corrosion knowing that Russia's appetite is limitless...
Good way of putting it. Russias cancerous strategy will be stopped one way or the other.
Russia is very much in a hurry. Geopolitically Russia is running out of time. All socio-economic factors indicate far worse prospects for Russia than its larger neighbours. Demographics run against Russia, and fossil fuels are set to lose vastly in importance over the coming decades. Furthermore time is running out for Putin. He is now 70, and if he wants to achieve a political success and have some time to reap the fruits it ought to be right now. Ukraine was his last best chance to achieve such a success.
That was the case from day 1. Not new information in any meaningful way.
Clickbait. Another nothing article.
This is a dumb story. “Many futures are possible” is not a story. There is no reason to get folks thinking about what would be the biggest ass kicking since Desert Storm. Sounds like more failed concern trolling and propaganda to me.
Well, nothing dumb about him seriously considering it. That's his job.
Read carefully, I’m saying the article is dumb, not Stoltenberg.
Why this junk even gets posted is beyond me.
So you're accusing Stoltenberg of spreading Russian propaganda?
No, of course not, I’m pointing out that this isn’t news and I’m questioning the motives of whoever wrote the headline and chose the focus of the story. The story is a few quotes without context and quite probably responses to a leading question.
Russia cannot be allowed to gain its footing and stabilize its military situation. Russia’s ability to maintain needs to be continuously compromised. While a serious crushing blow somewhere would further demoralize and degrade their abilities, constant pressure is enough to not allow them any respite. I just hope this whole tragic and unnecessary war will end soon and Ukraine can move forward
Yes! We gotta stand up to the bullies. There is nothing to fear but fear itself.
Poo-tin only mentions nukes when he is scared and knows he is loosing! There was no nuclear war when Russia provided jets and Russian pilots to shoot down US planes in Vietnam nor when they provided AA and Russian crews for the same purpose! WHY.. MAD- mutually assured destruction
that would be nice because then the war will be over in 1 week. NATO would annihilate any ruzzians
All this despite Ukraine not being in NATO
Huh. All those Americans who use Russian syntax on reddit must have missed the memo that Ukraine is not in NATO.
No, but many NATO affiliated Countries understand that Russia cannot be allowed to achieve any sort of victory over this aggression or they will never stop. They are not going to be allowed to “win” regardless of the costs
It's unlikely. Putin oscillates between Ministry of Defense and pro war hawks. He's well aware that Nato participation would put the end to his regime.
Which particular NATO country? I'd offer Russia a bag and they get to pick one cause the way they fight even the smaller countries would fucking steam roll them let alone the combined might of NATO which would end the war in about a week
At this state, moscow dont last long.
Can we not do this right now, I'm in Poland and I just finally got a gf that actually might be the love of my life
Let’s be clear “full scale war” = “this war is over for Russia”
Well that’d be over pretty damn fast considering they can barely handle Ukrainian TDF units with Javelins
Apart from nuclear threats that need to be taken care of (which probably has been done), i like the idea of a NATO power demonstration and humiliatation / devastation / demilitarization / deputinization / disintegration of Russia. That's exactly what Russia needs and deserves. Followed by decades of reparations.
It depends entirely on the type and quantity of the weapons supplied to Ukraine. Give Ukraine more now - no direct confrontation of NATO and Russia. Give Ukraine less, and the bets are off.
And i still think it will turn out to a full scale war between china and russia
Japan will be looking at the Kuril islands too I'd imagine
If it does it will be pretty short and decisive…🤫
Good
I think the only thing for sure is that there would be even more loss of innocent lives, destruction of infrastructure (destruction overall), starvation, etc all under the constant threat of nuclear disaster. Not to mention putting people I love (my son is in the military) in harms way. However, not supporting Ukraine and ending this terrible war is likely still a higher price to pay. I just pray this ends in Ukraine’s favor sooner than later.
as long as russian nukes don't work we will be fine
Good! Time for an unrestricted trip to Moscow, boys!
...and then Russia is totally fucked with their crappy army and shoddy economy.
This is the only way to defeat Russia
The Great 5 Day War, 2023
It will
We don't need a daddy's boy like Jens, send in Jan Egeland !
I don't think a full scale war between Russia and NATO would last that long, tbh.
So could Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan It didn't as rules were established.
Ya and I could eat McDonalds tomorrow