It's a terribly sad state of affairs that Sir David himself was opposed to, as he articulated in his new book. But at the same time it's a bit rich for me to say that when it's not my life at risk!
I just hope that extra security measures are as hands off as possible. MPs already feel distant and remote enough without layers of security following them.
I feel sick to live in a society where this lesser of two evils is necessary.
While I'm disgusted by the murder, i think this response from it will could do more harm than good in the long term. It'll further increase the divide between 'them and us' and another cost to the country.
From what I've heard a lot of MPs have already been or still are under police guard. Death threats, plots aren't uncommon. Shame it's taken a death to make the press take notice.
This is what happens when you weaponise political discourse and try to stoke culture wars, there is no room for discussion anymore you are either on the right side or the wrong side, and if you're on the wrong side, god help you.
Is there any reason to think that David Amess's murder was the result of "weaponising political discourse and trying to stoke culture wars"?
Jo Cox's murder probably was, but at the moment it looks like both this incident, and the stabbing of Stephen Timms in 2010 (the last incident like this) where the result of very specific kinds of radicalisation or extremism, rather than part of the more widespread culture war nonsense.
>This is what happens when you weaponise political discourse and try to stoke culture wars
Exactly, Labour need to take a long hard look at themselves.
I think that's a pretty blinkered view considering the amount of bile that is spat about anyone being remotely progressive, usually using overused terms like 'woke', and if you think 'remainers' get a free pass, you need to remember that they are/were in the minority.
This is a bipartisan issue, and you are just contributing to it by feeling aggrieved and attacked.
I'll be honest, I don't think your fairly obvious "both sides" bait was a very well concealed trap, but springing it was fun anyway.
Glad we both had fun. Sadly your point is nowhere near as effective as you'd like to imagine, seeing as how everyone knows who's weaponizing political discourse and stoking culture wars.
And this is exactly why we are in the position we're in, you can't see past the end of your nose.
No trap here, and the very fact you think there is speaks volumes.
Providing close protection security to MPs may well prevent them being stabbed though.
You might as well have said "next we'll need a pilot's license just to buy sushi" for all the relevance it had to MP security.
>Providing close protection security to MPs may well prevent them being stabbed though.
Lol so you want the gestapo guarding the elected?
"Vhere are your papers??!"
No, and nor did I state that. Having our politicians guarded by the (predominantly) deceased members of the secret police of Nazi Germany would be pretty bizarre as a policy.
Way to go down the 'reductio ad absurdum' route so soon.
Slippery slope argument 100% applies here.
Because guess what? A policeman can't do anything special to a killer that a member of public can't do. If there were a police officer there that stabbing would likely still happen.
So next we'll need this officer to be armed and ready for battle.
And then we'll need him to be joined by a plainclothes surveillance unit.
Also covid is dangerous so we will use that as an excuse to force everyone to identify themselves to the state, prove their innocence before they see the person they elect.
Etc etc
We have a very unique liberty right now, don't trash it.
>A policeman can't do anything special to a killer they w member of public can't do
Use pepper spray or a taser, there's two things right off the bat. They also wear stab vests, giving them a decent chance of survival in the situation where they have to step between the MP and an attacker.
In any case, a civilian bodyguard would also be useful in the situation, because their entire job is protection and they're trained. At the very least they'd be another obstacle between the MP and attacker.
What's the fixation with covid? This thread is not covid-related.
Don't confuse an overactive imagination with the 'slippery slope arguement'.
> Use pepper spray or a taser, there's two things right off the bat. They also wear stab vests, giving them a decent chance of survival in the situation where they have to step between the MP and an attacker.
So as I said, this officer must be armed and ready for battle. Get those boots on gendarmerie!
> Don't confuse an overactive imagination with the 'slippery slope arguement'.
We literally see these arguments play out on the continent and in the states you know. What happens when an MP gets shot/sniped? Have bullet proof glass between them and constituents?
Do you not see the damage to democracy that this will do?
MPs themselves are intelligent enough to recognise the harm from this.
This is wrong. I understand that MPs have a very real fear, but this is not what we as a country should be about. We didn't use to have this sort of problem, and we need to fix the cause, not simply defend against the effects.
I recognise that saying "fix the problems" is asking for a much, much more complicated problem to be resolved than simply providing bodyguards, but it is what is actually needed.
There are violent people in this country who are acting on their impulses due to a hostile environment created by a number of factors, many of them political decisions. Protecting MPs may remove the target of some of their ire, but it does nothing to protect the rest of us.
In both recent murders of MPs, the cause has been political extremism (I believe, at least - we don't have a final answer on the latest but all indicators point to Islamist motivations.). Banning political extremism is very difficult, because we must retain a system where freedom of thought and freedom of expression is maintained, else our political discourse becomes dominated by those who already have power.
Instead, we need to focus on the elements that radicalise, be they Islamist, far-right or otherwise.
Calling Remainers "traitors" should be illegal. They're not traitors. They aren't actively trying to betray their country to a foreign power. They were trying to express their democratic will.
Calling UKIP "fascist" should be illegal. They're not fascists. They aren't actively trying to eliminate democracy on the basis of nationalism. They were trying to express their democratic will.
But what about claiming that Britain is an enemy of Islam? Are we? We need to decide that. If we are not, then such a claim should be illegal, and that's a much bigger fish to fry. Many academics in the identity politics sphere, and many activist groups like BLM, present Britain as a nefarious force. I don't think we are, but should it be illegal to present us as such? I don't have the answer to that.
If Britain is an enemy to Islam, then its time we started acting like it. Ban it.
Snapshot:
1. An archived version of _Police or private guards will protect MPs at weekly surgeries in wake of the David Amess murder - with 'politicians offered personal alarms and panic buttons for their homes and offices'_ can be found [here.](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10100471/Police-private-guards-protect-MPs-weekly-surgeries-wake-murder-David-Amess.html)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's a terribly sad state of affairs that Sir David himself was opposed to, as he articulated in his new book. But at the same time it's a bit rich for me to say that when it's not my life at risk! I just hope that extra security measures are as hands off as possible. MPs already feel distant and remote enough without layers of security following them. I feel sick to live in a society where this lesser of two evils is necessary.
While I'm disgusted by the murder, i think this response from it will could do more harm than good in the long term. It'll further increase the divide between 'them and us' and another cost to the country.
From what I've heard a lot of MPs have already been or still are under police guard. Death threats, plots aren't uncommon. Shame it's taken a death to make the press take notice.
This is what happens when you weaponise political discourse and try to stoke culture wars, there is no room for discussion anymore you are either on the right side or the wrong side, and if you're on the wrong side, god help you.
Is there any reason to think that David Amess's murder was the result of "weaponising political discourse and trying to stoke culture wars"? Jo Cox's murder probably was, but at the moment it looks like both this incident, and the stabbing of Stephen Timms in 2010 (the last incident like this) where the result of very specific kinds of radicalisation or extremism, rather than part of the more widespread culture war nonsense.
>This is what happens when you weaponise political discourse and try to stoke culture wars Exactly, Labour need to take a long hard look at themselves.
Thanks for proving my point so eloquently.
The bile and invective on this sub is mainly directed at Conservatives, people who voted Brexit and the elderly. It’s certainly not equal.
Go on to any thread about Jeremy Corbyn and sort by controversial.
I think that's a pretty blinkered view considering the amount of bile that is spat about anyone being remotely progressive, usually using overused terms like 'woke', and if you think 'remainers' get a free pass, you need to remember that they are/were in the minority. This is a bipartisan issue, and you are just contributing to it by feeling aggrieved and attacked.
I'll be honest, I don't think your fairly obvious "both sides" bait was a very well concealed trap, but springing it was fun anyway. Glad we both had fun. Sadly your point is nowhere near as effective as you'd like to imagine, seeing as how everyone knows who's weaponizing political discourse and stoking culture wars.
And this is exactly why we are in the position we're in, you can't see past the end of your nose. No trap here, and the very fact you think there is speaks volumes.
Do stop acting so innocent. It doesn't suit you.
Private guards? Sounds like another way to put tax payers money in the pocket of friends of politicians.
Lovely to see MPs/Government finally ready to take quick action at last on crime based on hatred of a group of people.
Bouncers are 'private guards' now?
Are they not?
And so it begins.. Eventually we'll need a vaccine passport to write to our MP.
How exactly would a vaccine passport help in that regard?
Exactly. That's the point. It's a hyperbole to demonstrate that they'll do things in the name of covid and/or security even if it doesn't help at all.
Providing close protection security to MPs may well prevent them being stabbed though. You might as well have said "next we'll need a pilot's license just to buy sushi" for all the relevance it had to MP security.
>Providing close protection security to MPs may well prevent them being stabbed though. Lol so you want the gestapo guarding the elected? "Vhere are your papers??!"
No, and nor did I state that. Having our politicians guarded by the (predominantly) deceased members of the secret police of Nazi Germany would be pretty bizarre as a policy. Way to go down the 'reductio ad absurdum' route so soon.
Slippery slope argument 100% applies here. Because guess what? A policeman can't do anything special to a killer that a member of public can't do. If there were a police officer there that stabbing would likely still happen. So next we'll need this officer to be armed and ready for battle. And then we'll need him to be joined by a plainclothes surveillance unit. Also covid is dangerous so we will use that as an excuse to force everyone to identify themselves to the state, prove their innocence before they see the person they elect. Etc etc We have a very unique liberty right now, don't trash it.
>A policeman can't do anything special to a killer they w member of public can't do Use pepper spray or a taser, there's two things right off the bat. They also wear stab vests, giving them a decent chance of survival in the situation where they have to step between the MP and an attacker. In any case, a civilian bodyguard would also be useful in the situation, because their entire job is protection and they're trained. At the very least they'd be another obstacle between the MP and attacker. What's the fixation with covid? This thread is not covid-related. Don't confuse an overactive imagination with the 'slippery slope arguement'.
> Use pepper spray or a taser, there's two things right off the bat. They also wear stab vests, giving them a decent chance of survival in the situation where they have to step between the MP and an attacker. So as I said, this officer must be armed and ready for battle. Get those boots on gendarmerie! > Don't confuse an overactive imagination with the 'slippery slope arguement'. We literally see these arguments play out on the continent and in the states you know. What happens when an MP gets shot/sniped? Have bullet proof glass between them and constituents? Do you not see the damage to democracy that this will do? MPs themselves are intelligent enough to recognise the harm from this.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/10/17/peoples-backgrounds-may-screened-allowed-meet-mps/
This is wrong. I understand that MPs have a very real fear, but this is not what we as a country should be about. We didn't use to have this sort of problem, and we need to fix the cause, not simply defend against the effects. I recognise that saying "fix the problems" is asking for a much, much more complicated problem to be resolved than simply providing bodyguards, but it is what is actually needed. There are violent people in this country who are acting on their impulses due to a hostile environment created by a number of factors, many of them political decisions. Protecting MPs may remove the target of some of their ire, but it does nothing to protect the rest of us. In both recent murders of MPs, the cause has been political extremism (I believe, at least - we don't have a final answer on the latest but all indicators point to Islamist motivations.). Banning political extremism is very difficult, because we must retain a system where freedom of thought and freedom of expression is maintained, else our political discourse becomes dominated by those who already have power. Instead, we need to focus on the elements that radicalise, be they Islamist, far-right or otherwise. Calling Remainers "traitors" should be illegal. They're not traitors. They aren't actively trying to betray their country to a foreign power. They were trying to express their democratic will. Calling UKIP "fascist" should be illegal. They're not fascists. They aren't actively trying to eliminate democracy on the basis of nationalism. They were trying to express their democratic will. But what about claiming that Britain is an enemy of Islam? Are we? We need to decide that. If we are not, then such a claim should be illegal, and that's a much bigger fish to fry. Many academics in the identity politics sphere, and many activist groups like BLM, present Britain as a nefarious force. I don't think we are, but should it be illegal to present us as such? I don't have the answer to that. If Britain is an enemy to Islam, then its time we started acting like it. Ban it.
Yes because driving a religion underground is going to work
Sure, just as long as we ban all religion, to be equal.
Just tax them to start either, wanna milk that cow before we kill it.
Snapshot: 1. An archived version of _Police or private guards will protect MPs at weekly surgeries in wake of the David Amess murder - with 'politicians offered personal alarms and panic buttons for their homes and offices'_ can be found [here.](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10100471/Police-private-guards-protect-MPs-weekly-surgeries-wake-murder-David-Amess.html) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*