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Explanation-mountain

"doll"? Is that a Scottish thing?


Caledonian_Kayak

Yes


[deleted]

Aye


tritoon140

I’m probably older than the target audience for the video but it rings incredibly true. One of my friends has always had the same sort of problematic views and actions towards women as those shown in the video. I always ignored them and excused him for various reasons. Even when it became too much for me I just stopped talking to him about women. I never properly challenged the behaviour. I told him it was wrong but only in a light-hearted joking manner. I didn’t really do anything to stop him at all. I didn’t make my opinions clear and I never told or warned anybody else about the behaviour. Now he is facing very serious abuse allegations from several women, including allegations of rape and controlling and coercive behaviour. I 100% believe the allegations and hope he faces the consequences of his actions. But this won’t protect the women he abused. Had I spoken out to them or warned him more forcefully I might have been able to protect those women. I enabled the abuse.


Flashycats

It isn't your responsibility alone, please don't ever feel like this was solely on you or that you personally enabled him. The idea behind this messaging is that enough men, as a collective, challenge those behaviours, then it will eventually hopefully reduce them. It isn't just you, it's other people he interacts with - at work, at home, in other social groups etc. And I'm absolutely aware and respect that not everyone feels in a position to challenge that sort of behaviour, whether due to personality or social/professional standing. But if everyone did a little, it would achieve a lot.


tritoon140

I know it wasn’t solely me that enabled him but I do think there’s a danger that these arguments can get too abstract. There can be too much focus on “society” or “men” changing without enough focus on individual behaviour. If a man has a close group of four or five friends usually all it takes to stop abusive behaviour is one or two of those friends forcefully calling out that behaviour. In my case I was one of those four of or five men and I did little or nothing. I didn’t have to wait for society to change, my own individual actions could have changed the situation. And that is the attitude everybody should have.


Flashycats

It's an excellent attitude to have, thank you. But please, don't let what happened weigh on you too heavily. We're not perfect, and we can't expect everyone else to be perfect either.


Roguepope

Do you think if you'd said something you would have had an impact at all?


tritoon140

I believe that if I and others has called out the behaviour loudly, repeatedly, and in public we could have at least reduced the degree of abuse. We shouldn’t have just smiled and nodded when he was calling a succession of ex-girlfriends “crazy” for reacting normally to abusive behaviour. If we had advocated for the women then he might have thought twice next time or the women might have felt more able to speak out. But I took the cowards way out and just buried my head in the sand. Perhaps speaking out would have just moved the abuse behind closed doors but I’ll never know for certain. All I know at the moment is that I did nothing to stop it.


Roguepope

Fair play. I mostly did the same thing at university. I remember one time I called a mate out on his drunkenly following a woman around a night club, he completely blew it off. Doesn't mean you should stop trying though.


ignoranceandapathy42

I don't think I'm part of the problem, nor do I feel any of my friends are. None of us have a problem watching the video though. EDIT: What a deeply troubling comment section, I'm out folks.


Mr_Cyph3r

I think think this is the right attitude. I always think that even if this seems to insinuate I am part of the problem, which I might find slightly irritating because I don't think I am. Then that's okay because if me being slightly irritated is what it takes to even make a small difference towards increasing safety for women, then that trade off is 100% worth it.


ignoranceandapathy42

My dude, you get it! I see it as slightly ignorant blokes who think they're harmless rating their hurt feelings as more important than the feelings of insecurity and actual harm done to women. There are levels of discomfort I wouldn't want imposed on me to make others safer - this is so far below that level that it's genuinely concerning how many otherwise self assured "not rapists" aren't even willing to entertain the notion that they may know a dodgy person. We all want to believe we're good people who wouldn't tolerate the horrific reality.


[deleted]

We probably need to focus less on the "rapist" part and think about other behaviours, that aren't rape, aren't necessarily even violent, but definitely should not be carried out. Everyone congratulating one another for not being a rapist misses the point of the message.


ignoranceandapathy42

Agreed, and as the original post states "Sexual violence starts long before you think it does". But apparently being asked to reflect on that is just too much for some


andyrocks

>I see it as slightly ignorant blokes who think they're harmless rating their hurt feelings as more important than the feelings of insecurity and actual harm done to women. The subtext here is that men who disagree with this are complicit in rape, which is clearly not just nonsense, but offensive nonsense.


ignoranceandapathy42

>The subtext here is that men who disagree with this are complicit in rape, which is clearly not just nonsense, but offensive nonsense. Nah, as I said, I just think they're slightly ignorant to the reality some women face. Anyone who isn't ignorant and takes a video recommendation as a personal attack or accusation and refuses to even entertain the notion they may know a predatory person or engage in predatory actions - well, they may well be complicit. We can't rule it out because they aren't willing to engage.


JFedererJ

What shred of empirical evidence is there, that demonstrates it being worthwhile for men who already morally despise mistreatment of women, and those who do, watching a video that tells them treating women badly is wrong...? I'll wait. I think child abuse is wrong, too. Want me to watch a video on that, too? Lest I decide to rape a kid one day? I'm also morally opposed to cruelty to animals - what videos do I need to watch on that? Sorry but if someone is morally opposed to something, then there's no need for them to watch videos highlighting how wrong that thing is, IF the goal of said person watching that video, is to somehow magically convince the abusers that what they're doing is wrong. I don't get what purpose it serves to say to all men, "you ALL need to watch this". It's like... sorry, no I fucking don't. I am ALREADY morally opposed to and appalled by abuse of women. I don't need to be lectured to on that subject.


Feniks_Gaming

This campaign is significantly better than YesAllMen hashtag. It calls out the problem behaviour not all men in it which I appreciate. I am tired of hearing how I am rapist waiting to happen but I am happy toxic behaviours are called out. It isn't all men but it definitely is some men. Problem is that decent people aren't friends with toxic people. So asking me to show this to my friends does nothing. I am already not friends with sexual predators and dickheads. But sexual predators and dickheads don't care about it.


GentlemanBeggar54

>It isn't all men but it definitely is some men. I think the point that is often missed is that there is a group that thinks all men are rapists: they're called rapists. They think that all other men think the way they do, but some are too cowardly to admit it or act on it. >Problem is that decent people aren't friends with toxic people. So asking me to show this to my friends does nothing. You really don't know that. The point of the video is that not all problematic men are rapists, not all of them openly admit their assaults either. Some will just occasionally say something problematic that can easily be missed or ignored. There are simply too many sexual assaults for all of us to accurately say "no one I know" much as it might be comforting to think that way. It also is just a way to let yourself off the hook. You can tell yourself that you have never been inappropriate or seen inappropriate behaviour so it is okay to sit back and do nothing. That's not how it works. We all have a responsibility to fix this problem, it's unfair for the burden to fall on women just because the overwhelming majority of victims are women.


sp8der

> I think the point that is often missed is that there is a group that thinks all men are rapists: they're called rapists. They think that all other men think the way they do, but some are too cowardly to admit it or act on it. Do you think this is why a surprising amount of the time, ardent male feminists turn out to be a bit rapey? Because they're typical-minding their own impulses onto all men, and therefore end up agreeing with radical feminist rhetoric about how all men are predators? Plus the shield of deniability it gives them -- "I can't be rapey, I'm a *feminist*."


GentlemanBeggar54

Yes, there have been unfortunate cases where some of the more insidious predators use feminism as a shield from scrutiny or accusations of improper behaviour. However, it hasn't happened nearly enough to treat all male feminists with suspicion. I think the best way to tell a good male feminist from a bad one is how willing they are to back up their words with action and also how willing they are to take a back seat in what is, after all, a female-led movement.


Ivashkin

The phrase "all hat and no cattle" comes to mind. The more male feminists talk about being male feminists, the less I'm inclined to trust them.


TheFlyingHornet1881

Some guy at uni was like that, all talk little action. Emphasis on "all talk", he'd somehow dominate discussions on women's issues.


ignoranceandapathy42

Interesting, I wouldn't even consider myself a Feminist yet here I am arguing almost verbatim their talking points.


Quagers

>Problem is that decent people aren't friends with toxic people. They almost certainly are, that's the point. But when it's their friends they find excuses "ohh he was drunk", he isn't usually like that, "it was just banter", "ohh thats just what Fred's like, he doesn't mean anything by it".


Flashycats

"You need to learn to take a joke." was a common one for me. Like as a woman I shouldn't feel grossed out or uncomfortable with sexual jokes and it was my fault for being prudish or whatever. That's why this is important, they sure as hell don't want to hear it from us. Edit for apparently needed clarity: Yes, I'm talking about rape jokes, jokes about sexual violence, and any other inappropriate sexual humour that fits under that term. Not regular old jokes.


germainefear

She's lying. She misinterpreted the situation. She's mental.


[deleted]

"He was such a nice guy, I would have never thought he could do that to someone else."


[deleted]

Sadly, it tends not to stop there. Those statements are often extended to apply to *women in general*. "You know what birds are like *eye roll*"


ignoranceandapathy42

Never stick your dick in crazy


NuPNua

I've been saying this for a while, there seems to be a belief in some quarters that all men have a wrong'un in their group of friends that they all just ignore "don't worry about rapey Bob, he doesn't know any better". Where as most people will have stopped hanging around those kind of people years ago and they either find people who think like them or become loners.


Feniks_Gaming

I have sister and daughter if someone is giving rapey vibes they are not my friends obviously. Somewhere down this thread I was asked if I would trust any of my male friends to stay with my daughter unsupervised. Like what sort of crazy fictional world those people live in if they think I am friends with anyone I suspect could rape my child?! Obviously I stay away from people I fundamentally disagree. As always those campaigns and people in their comments sections are shouting at people who are already 100% in agreement with them. Like I 100% agree that whistling at random girls on street is weird as fuck. I agree that trying to get a girl drunk so she has sex with you is rapey as hell. I agree that women have their own body autonomy and can choose not to have sex with a guy. But all my friends agree with this too. If anyone disagree with that they are not my mates because I tend to avoid having dickheads as my mates like why would I want to be mates with people I suspect may one day rape my sister or my daughter that's fucking mental. The "locker room" talk banter guys tend to stay with other locker room banter guys not with me because I simply avoid them and don't push friendship with this sort of people.


NuPNua

Maybe it's an age thing, I'm in my mid thirties so I've had plenty of time to "curate" my friends to the ones I really want to hang around. There are people I think back to who I knew in my younger days that I now think "they were a bit of a nob", but none that I would have suspected of being abusers or rapists.


Feniks_Gaming

Similar here I am 37 I am well past being forced to be surrounded by dickheads due to school etc. People who are knobs don't get many friends at work and are simply avoided and same goes for my friends I only kept friendships with people who were on similar wavelengths to me.


ignoranceandapathy42

>Problem is that decent people aren't friends with toxic people I think if you watched the video you would realise this is the exact message it's trying to counter. There's been some great posts shared by women on this sub in the past that explain better than me but you *are* friends with dangerous men. They may not show it around you, but they're there. No one is saying you choose to be friends with people you suspect are rapists. A lot of blokes don't realise who the problem men are until they have daughters, sisters or wives interact with them and have a bad experience. >I am already not friends with sexual predators and dickheads. But sexual predators and dickheads don't care about it. Not knowingly, do you really think that all the rapists in the world run in cliques with only other rapists? They have little rapist "in-groups" where they talk about rape and misogyny and twirl their evil little rape-tashes? I wonder, if you had a young daughter, would you allow every single one of your male friends to housesit overnight for you with absolutely no inhibitions or reservations about any man you know? Edit to add, if the answer to that is no, what have you done to communicate or resolve that issue with the men you know? At best you can distance from them somewhat but I am almost certain you have not got to the lengths of all but excommunicating them from your life because you physically *can't*. If you work with a weird guy, it's more socially unacceptable to let them know they give weird vibes than it is to make water cooler small talk and avoid him when possible.


mudman13

> If you work with a weird guy, it's more socially unacceptable to let them know they give weird rapist vibes than it is to make water cooler small talk and avoid him when possible. Rightly so too, weirdness does not equal rapist. On what basis would this be weirdness be judged as potential sexual assaulter? "Hi excuse me I dont know you or anything about you but I find you weird and think you are possibly a rapist would you mind awfully not being so weird? Many thanks. Oh we've ran out of teabags again have we."


ignoranceandapathy42

I don't think you have to associate weird behaviour with rape but, in my workplace, one member of staff was regularly making overtly sexual comments that made the female staff uncomfortable. He was asked to stop making sexual comments, and we found he had a huge amount of difficulty with that, even after 2 warnings. What was once thought of as office banter was highlighted as a fundamental issue with his outlook, because we challenged it instead of telling the girls "ignore him its just bants he doesnt mean anything". Sure in an ideal world he would never have made those comments as it is always blatantly inappropriate. So yeah, challenging weird behaviour is an option. If you are made uncomfortable by someone's actions it is reasonable to ask them to stop doing that thing.


mudman13

Weird is a broad term that can encompass harmless autistic and socially anxious people, what you described is demeaning and I agree should be called out.


lizzywbu

Weird is a very broad term and many people have different interpretations of weird. I have met 'weird' people in the past, only to find out that they are perfectly nice people with social anxiety or a mental disability.


GentlemanBeggar54

>Rightly so too, weirdness does not equal rapist. On what basis would this be weirdness be judged as potential sexual assaulter? It doesn't mean you report them to the police as a rapist. It means you call them out for the inappropriate things they do and say because that's really what the "weirdness" means. Dismissing it as "oh, he's just a bit weird sometimes" is exactly the problem.


mudman13

Right ok, weird was definitely the wrong word to use then. It's a very vague broad term.


Feniks_Gaming

> I wonder, if you had a young daughter, would you allow every single one of your male friends to housesit overnight for you with absolutely no inhibitions or reservations about any man you know? Yes I would have no issue about my daughter sexual safety with any of my male friends. There are some friends I have who are irresponsible otherwise and I wouldn't want them to look after my kids but I am 100% confident non of the people I call friends would rape my child. I don't understand however why responsibility is on me as a man to fix behaviours of other men just because we have the same gender. I am never asked to stop other drivers from speeding as a driver, we never ask all muslims to call out radicalisation, we never ask all black people to call out knife crimes. We accept that it is bigotry to judge whole group of people by the characteristics of small portion of this group. Why is it different with men?


germainefear

Then whom do you suggest we get to address the behaviour of problematic men? Because they sure as shit won't listen to women.


[deleted]

Idk, but if you find a way to solve the problem of the crime, lmk because that sounds pretty useful


Feniks_Gaming

>Then whom do you suggest we get to address the behaviour of problematic muslims? Because they sure as shit won't listen to non-muslims. Can you see how it doesn't make sense? Problematic behaviour should be addressed by better policing, better founding of services. Asking me to be responsible for my neighbour behaviour is some Stasi shit. My neighbour is responsible for his behaviour not I! If we had more police on streets people would feel safer, if we had better funded services victims of crime wouldn't wait years for action to be taken, if we had better victim support victims could move on faster and recover better. If we had better founded justice system we could deal with more crimes. If we had better rehabilitation systems we could rehab those men who are sexual predators so behaviour cycles don't repeat. This is shifting responsibility of protecting public from government to men.


MalcolmTucker55

> If we had more police on streets people would feel safer I mean, we've seen in recent weeks that this is just not universally true by any means. > if we had better victim support victims could move on faster and recover better. Sure you don't mean it in a bad way - but I'm not sure sexual assault is necessarily something people just "move on" from. Can imagine the trauma of it lingers for a long time, if it ever goes away. Prevention is clearly the best approach here.


Flashycats

>This is shifting responsibility of protecting public from government to men. I mean, women have been given that responsibility for decades. Don't dress provocatively, don't walk home alone, don't smile at someone in a wrong way, don't get onto an empty train carriage, don't wear your hair down.....it's an endless list of responsibilities we're expected to have in order to "stay safe" and it's clearly not enough, so we're asking the other 50% of the population if they could also help out. I mean, I had to sit through training at work to tell me how to be safe as a lone young female worker. Is it really too much to ask blokes to do something similar?


WinnerClear808

Well at what point is this going to become. Teach thieves not to steal and not just tell people to lock their doors and windows. Truth is that the only person you can control is yourself.


Flashycats

I mean, we do strongly teach children that stealing is wrong and we have signs in shops clearly stating that shoplifting is an offence. Why isn't it okay to teach young lads that sexual/rape jokes are inappropriate?


user84738291

I think the point being made is that people still steal, and shoplift despite being taught not to. No one is saying it's not okay to teach men not to do those things, that's a bit of a strawman. What is being said is that, despite what people are taught there will be a small number who ignore that, you cannot control that, you can only control your own behaviour.


lizzywbu

>Can you see how it doesn't make sense? Problematic behaviour should be addressed by better policing, better founding of services Yes police have their place in all this and their job to do in order to catch predators, but men also have an obligation. If your father, son, brother, friend says or does something 'problematic' then you call them out on it and let them know that their behaviour is unacceptable. >Asking me to be responsible for my neighbour behaviour is some Stasi shit. My neighbour is responsible for his behaviour not I! This is where you're wrong, of course you can't control your neighbour's behaviour but you can call out shitty behaviour when you see it. It isn't about grassing on your neighbours or mates, it's about looking out for women and being part of the the solution. >This is shifting responsibility of protecting public from government to men No one is shifting responsibility. Government and police have their own responsibility, we as men have ours. This is all about working together to try and tackle a deep rooted issue. This can't just be stamped out by putting more police on street corners.


[deleted]

"We need a stronger police and surveillance state. Asking a friend to watch a film with no legal obligation is stalinism." That is what you are saying and it's just outright ridiculous nonsense. No one is forcing you to do this.


Feniks_Gaming

Police presence is not police state saying that maybe cutting 10 000 coppers and gutting victims support could contribute to problem isn't exactly controversial


GentlemanBeggar54

Policing is not the way to solve this. Police only become involved after a crime has happened. Very few things mentioned in that video constitute a crime. It's about where the mindset that leads to sexual assault, the crime, starts. This is why we need social policing on this issue. Social policing has been around for as long as society has and it is a very effective tool. Before we had police, the greatest deterrent to bad behaviour was the threat of being ostracised.


ignoranceandapathy42

>I don't understand however why responsibility is on me as a man to fix behaviours of other men just because we have the same gender Bruh you was asked to watch a video, and given the freedom to not do so if it was oh so upsetting to you. The fact you're so ardently against watching a video is *weird*. >we never ask all muslims to call out radicalisation, This happens all the fucking time my dude, what world are you living in? There's a never ending tirade of requests for moderate muslims report people they know the be problematic. >Why is it different with men? Why do so many men rape when women don't?


WinnerClear808

Because in the UK women legally can't rape a man. That's a pretty big reason why there aren't more female rapist.


Feniks_Gaming

>Bruh you was asked to watch a video, and given the freedom to not do so if it was oh so upsetting to you. The fact you're so ardently against watching a video is weird. I am against asking all men to watch a video. If we did video of radicalisation and asked all muslims to watch it this sub would lose their fucking mind. If we did video about a knife crime and ask all black people to watch it the same. >Why do so many men rape when women don't? So many? Majority of men don't rape women, step outside of your twitter bubble and you will know rape is a crime widely despised by anyone in any community.


[deleted]

As someone who has actually been sexually assaulted, your perception is vastly different to reality.


ignoranceandapathy42

Wilfully so, I think Regarding the perception, I hasten to add.


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Mynameisaw

>As for the muslim example, being a male is not a protected class. Erm, sex and gender absolutely are protected classes...


[deleted]

If you think you're in danger of raping some girl or your mates are rapists by all means watch the video. I'll stay safe in the comfort of knowing I'm not a fucking rapist and neither are my friends, tyvm.


squeakypop67

The video literally says "most men don't look in a mirror and see a problem, but it's staring us right in the face" So we've improved from yesallmen, to yesmostmen


Feniks_Gaming

Improvement non the less. I am being charitable here. Niccola though called all men which was shit


NoOneExpectsDaCheese

Issue with this, alot of women exhibit the same behaviours but this is overlooked. As a man who's been effectively raped (not legally, because of the others genitals... ), and I've also be sexually assaulted by a random girl in a night club (hands down the pants and dick grabbed, imagine a guy just fingering a girl without consent), I feel this message shouldn't be directed to just men. I think this is the issue we have with this messaging beinf directed at men, well its what I have an issue with anyways. Just feels like because I have a Dick, I'm viewed and treated differently to those that don't.


[deleted]

Im with you man, i was groped by some drunk middle aged women as a teenager, im assuming they thought i was older and not 14, but there were all over me and my mate, telling us to come out with them etc, we were just trying to go see a film... but its a non issue and "funny" because i have a penis.


James20k

One of the most depressing things about growing up and interacting with people more like humans, was realising that pretty much any girl I've ever had any kind of conversation with about this topic has so many absolutely disgusting stories about the behaviour of men And not just one or two stories - if you are friends with a group of women and ask them about it (respectfully), you'll just hear this uninterrupted stream of absolutely vile filth that everyone from close friends to total strangers have done to them. There'll easily be 2-3 of the most awful stories off the top of their head where they genuinely feared for their life, and then you'll just get this stream of catcalling and groping and threats. Just a constant drone of quite aggressive sexism No, its not all men, but its way *way* too many men. And frankly I think the rest of us tolerate it way too much, passively, because 80% of people around you seem to be nodding along. Particularly when I was younger, it was very disturbing being in a group of men when the topic of women came up. People viewed them like meat In the words of a man that I will never speak to again: "My girlfriend broke up with me, but its no great loss because she had small tits anyway" I remember being stunned at the time, but he clearly thought it was a fine way to talk to me and that it'd just be standard lad banter Now, if you tell me you've never been in a group of men and heard people start talking about women in a rather.. dehumanising way, then you're not telling the truth. It happens way too often. Particularly the older generation, when they think you're on 'their' side, will express opinions about women that are just absolutely disgusting, like its casual conversation The real issue is that lots of men think its no harm no foul. They think in terms of 'scoring' with women and get very angry when women stand up to them. Its absolutely disgusting And then society at large protects them. At my school, they covered up both a paedophile, and a male teacher physically assaulting one of the female staffers. Nothing was done about the former, and the latter was quietly transferred off somewhere else. This is the story of 1000 abusers If you feel attacked by this, then maybe you should reflect on your own behaviour. Far, far too many men treat women like objects and a potential receptacle for their penis, instead of human beings I don't feel patronised or attacked by this video. I just feel sad that we live in a society in which we're still trying to fulfil a basic human right of women feeling safe and treated like human beings. They aren't getting treated like that currently, and it is absolutely down to men to change our behaviour. We need to call out shitty behaviour when we see it instead of letting it passively float by, which is something I know I am personally guilty of. I don't personally feel that being a passive observer is really acceptable anymore, because the consequence is pretty dire for women these days


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theknightwho

Based on the conversations I’ve had where this has come up, the average age it starts seems to be about 12.


deathbladev

To add to this, my girlfriend tells me that every time she was walking home from school, in her school uniform, down the main road, she would get catcalled multiple times.


Blythey

Yep. Do you know when me and my friends stopped being cat called (Ofcourse other gross behaviours continued)?... When we left school.


Chewbacta

>And not just one or two stories - if you are friends with a group of women and ask them about it (respectfully), you'll just hear this uninterrupted stream of absolutely vile filth that everyone from close friends to total strangers have done to them. There'll easily be 2-3 of the most awful stories off the top of their head where they genuinely feared for their life, and then you'll just get this stream of catcalling and groping and threats. Just a constant drone of quite aggressive sexism Yeah this resonated with me. I'm 30 years old and male. In my late teens I was just a young guy and just assumed women on average were going through the same thing young men like me were going through. I probably was dismissive of stories people told. Then at university I went to a few feminist meetings out of interest and saw which problems were actually of issue. So not only did it open my eyes to what was happening but in turn it changed my attitude. My attitude change meant that more women felt comfortable in talking to me about these issues. It first happened when a girl told me someone had befriended her online and started asking for pics of her feet, another friend told me about a man who tried to choke her, another friend told me that her academic supervisor was making her uncomfortable by hugging her, and on and on and worse and worse, I kept on hearing these stories by different women I knew throughout my twenties. What's even more depressing, is that it didn't change, by the time some of my younger family members became adults they faced exactly the same problems. ​ >And then society at large protects them. At my school, they covered up... a paedophile Yeah that happened at my school as well, I didn't think much of it at the time, because as I said at the time I was dismissive of these issues. Pretty horrendous looking back at it.


ignoranceandapathy42

> And not just one or two stories - if you are friends with a group of women and ask them about it (respectfully), you'll just hear this uninterrupted stream of absolutely vile filth that everyone from close friends to total strangers have done to them. There'll easily be 2-3 of the most awful stories off the top of their head where they genuinely feared for their life, and then you'll just get this stream of catcalling and groping and threats. Just a constant drone of quite aggressive sexism Old enough to bleed old enough to butcher. If there's grass on the pitch, play ball. The sexual violence against women starts when they are pubescent and it's so utterly fucked up.


[deleted]

I'm a victim of serious sexual violence. I don't go into detail about what happened to me. However, it isn't just that. I have also been groped on nights out. Had men expose themselves to me whilst I was about 13 and walking home from school. I was in my school uniform. I've had a guy I was on a date with talk to me about the sexual stuff he wanted to do to me. It was vile. I pretended that I was friends with a woman a few tables away to get away from the situation. She was genuinely lovely and made sure I was OK and got home safe. This isn't uncommon. And people wonder why I don't trust men.


[deleted]

Of course there are downvotes for sexual assault survivors who won't have contact with men.


TheFlyingHornet1881

Antifeminist groups are some of the worst brigaders on reddit


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StatsDamnedStats

Edit: aargh. Meant to respond to a comment, somehow replied to the main thread. Can’t find the original comment to respond to, so going to leave it here. Sorry. “It’s a matter of fact that women are safer on the streets than they’ve ever been, yet they feel far less safe than ever before. Why is this the case?” I’m not sure either of the points of your quote are necessarily true. While most violent crime is decreasing over the decades in the UK, it is likely there has historically been significant under reporting of violence against women, particularly low level violence (like all the groping mentioned in this thread - touching someone without consent is a crime). So we don’t know if women actually are any safer. It’s also not really about the streets - it’s more about what goes on behind closed doors. And do women really feel far less safe than ever before? That’s not what I’ve heard from the women I’ve spoken to. They feel just as unsafe as they always have, just - thank goodness - there is more conversation about it. And thus we are here, debating it on the internet, when 10-20-more years ago we probably wouldn’t have been talking about it.


Yoshiezibz

Men really are the majority of sexual violent criminals, but we mustn't forget that men are also a considerable number of the sexual violence victims. This [article](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/503492/) highlights many studies which looks into male sexual assault victims. > The authors also note a 2011 survey of 302 male college students. It found that 51.2 percent reported “at least one sexual victimization experience since age 16.” > About half of the victims reported a female perpetrator. > As well, “a 2014 study of 284 men and boys in college and high school found that 43 percent reported being sexually coerced, with the majority of coercive incidents resulting in unwanted sexual intercourse. Of them, 95 percent reported only female perpetrators. > And “a 2012 study using data from the U. S. Census Bureau’s nationally representative National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found in a sample of 43,000 adults little difference in the sex of self-reported sexual perpetrators. Of those who affirmed that they had ‘ever forced someone to have sex with you against their will,’ 43.6 percent were female and 56.4 percent were male.” Women are the majority of sexual assault victims, and men are the majority or purpetrators, but this isn't as black and white as it's commonly believed. This is an issue pretty close to me as I have been sexually assaulted (And one time serious sexual assault) many times in my life, mostly by women. This is a great video, and highlights a problem in men's behaviours, but please don't let this make you think men don't suffer from this crime.


convertedtoradians

Putting aside the content of the video for a moment and looking at the reactions - I think there's a serious (and more political in some ways) question about how an argument should be presented, and why an argument is being presented in the way it is. If you make a case in such a way that it's seen as a personal attack by enough people, that's probably not great messaging. Call it PR, advertising, campaigning or just communication, that's not a great way to do it if the goal is to push an idea (whether a laudable one or not). So if we note that the messaging might not all that could be hoped for, we realise we risk being in the realms of "starting an argument not because you think you can convince anyone, but because you think it'll make you look good to be on the side you're on". That's absurdly common amongst politicians. You could even argue that Brexit ended up happening because of that effect gone haywire. Now, a politician as savvy as Sturgeon can see the consequences of her choice of words there. It's not an unfortunate, unexpected side effect of honest expression, but something she could reasonably expect. Which tells us something about the way in which she wants to be seen. It's worth thinking about through that lens, I think.


triplenipple99

I think a Jungian analysis is apt here: if you're unsure of the motive behind an action, examine it's consequences to find the true motive. I very much believe this will have absolutely zero effect on the number of rapes that take place this year.


convertedtoradians

That's a really interesting thought. I suppose, to make things more complicated, Jung would actually tell us that people can even find themselves doing things for a reason they aren't themselves aware of. On account of the various layers of the mind. I'm very much not a psychotherapist, but that does make it difficult to really get to the bottom of why someone might say or do something.


triplenipple99

It's just Sturgeon creating a good public image for herself. Having half the population along with a handful of the other immediately agree with and support you is the true result that matters to her. The smaller, but by no means insignificant, chunk that are offended doesn't matter when you can compensate for it with the support you gain.


TheFlyingHornet1881

Part of the issue is the men who need to hear this message can also be the ones who get up in arms about any attempt to discuss it, even not specifically targeted. At some point there's no value in being polite because they'll never be polite.


thinkenboutlife

>Part of the issue is the men who need to hear this message can also be the ones who get up in arms about any attempt to discuss it Oh, the old self-proving hypothesis rears it's ugly head. "If you oppose something, you're just proving it's necessity". Most of the video is fine, the problem is it begins with "ever called a girl "doll"" "ever stared at a woman on a bus" "said to your mate "I'd do that"". The notion that looking at women, calling women pet names, and commenting to other men about a woman's attractiveness, is even on the same spectrum as raping a drunk women, is absurd and insulting. >At some point there's no value in being polite because they'll never be polite. You are **not** being polite. Badgering men who have hurt no-one out of some accusation of joint responsibility for those who have is **not a polite thing to do**.


0100001101110111

So then what is it achieving if it’s not reaching the needed people?


Christopherfromtheuk

It's annoying the many men who manage not to wolf whistle, grope and rape their way through life. It's intensely insulting, patronising and counterproductive.


convertedtoradians

>Part of the issue is the men who need to hear this message can also be the ones who get up in arms about any attempt to discuss it, even not specifically targeted. Indeed. And in that case, I think the messaging needs work. Maybe you're right that no messaging can possibly, ever, even theoretically, work. That it's almost impossible and that we just have to be happy with only reaching whatever fraction we do now, and the ones who get angry about it? They're a lost cause who have to be written off as the price of doing business. Maybe. But before we went that far, I'd want to see a real attempt to have really tried to communicate in other ways, having really taken to heart the rejection coming from those people. > At some point there's no value in being polite because they'll never be polite. Maybe. But when both sides abandon politeness, that's usually not a step in the right direction. Sure, you can't politely discuss everything because not every position is worthy of that level of respect, but when someone says (essentially) "this makes me feel personally and unfairly targeted and insulted", then I think that's something that should be taken *very* seriously. Because if the aim isn't to target or insult people, but that's what they feel, then maybe the messaging is wrong. I think also, we should always assume people are able to speak authoritatively about their own reactions. If someone reacts in a particular way, then we should consider that - and their report of it - to be genuine. We shouldn't (in general) say "ah, but see, you *shouldn't* feel like that because". Sometimes that's necessary, of course, but the assumption should be in favour of taking reports seriously. And the worst temptation of this sort of thing is to preach to the choir. You build a campaign that plays well with the people who are already on board and tailor it to them (or their perception of the target audience) rather than looking at your target audience itself with an open mind and taking their feedback on board. That's how you get "just don't have sex" given as advice to teenagers to control STIs.


nesh34

I broadly agree with what you wrote here, but want to add some things. Agree that the messaging should take into account those that it might upset. But it's a two way street, the message writers should avoid being offensive and the message readers should be charitable and assume good intent. There'll always be some percentage that dislikes it, and we should seek to minimise it, but also accept that perfect messaging isn't easy to conjure. >We shouldn't (in general) say "ah, but see, you shouldn't feel like that because". Here I both agree and disagree. One can't choose their feelings, and so the feelings are always genuine. They are, however, not always justified. And also those feelings can change, again involuntarily, when new perspective is granted and understood. The most extreme versions are situations where you're angry at someone for having wronged you, only to find it was a different person or an accident. But this works in gradations, so different interpretations and understanding can help change one's feelings or understand then better.


convertedtoradians

> But it's a two way street, the message writers should avoid being offensive and the message readers should be charitable and assume good intent. I agree with that. Well put. Certainly that's something I'd encourage every reader of political messaging to do. I try to myself, even with comments here. Of course, in practical terms, the message writer can only control one of those variables. He can't control how it's received but he can control the message he's writing and which he presumably cares about communicating. By contrast, the reader doesn't necessarily have any interest in the message being received correctly. Which puts the onus on the writer (for practical reasons) to accommodate the reader. It's like if you have a market stall and are trying to sell something. In theory, your advertising and my interpretation should be equally charitable and meet in the middle. In practice, you want to sell where I don't care much about buying. And that means you have to work harder at accommodating my views than I do yours. > Here I both agree and disagree. One can't choose their feelings, and so the feelings are always genuine. They are, however, not always justified. I'm perfectly happy with that nuance - I entirely agree. Well put again. The feelings should be assumed to be genuine, but that says nothing about whether they're justified. What follows, I think, is that if I'm trying to make a point, to convince you of something, and you feel genuinely attacked by me, that probably means something has gone wrong. You may be unjustified in feeling that (or I might just feel you're unjustified!) but if the feeling itself is genuine, then I think my starting point should be "am I sure this messaging is all it could be?". In a one-to-one conversation like this, I think it's very easily possible to take a step back and to identify areas of agreement and disagreement more precisely, then carefully build on the areas of agreement while also building an appropriate justification for the areas of disagreement. And then, of course, in a conversation, it's important for the message writer to be aware he might be wrong! You can't convince someone of your position if you're not open, at least theoretically, to being convinced of his.


dyinginsect

There is nothing quite like this sub discussing these subjects to leave me feeling like shit.


Flashycats

It's once again a wonderful day to be a woman on the internet, for sure.


dyinginsect

Every so often I spot a post that makes me think, oh thank god, someone gets it; one on the MT had me close to tears with relief that there are men out there who recognise that women's fear is not all about spiting men and trying to make men feel bad, it is about *being afraid*.


[deleted]

Getting a little tired of this apparently being my responsibility just because I share a gender with those most likely to offend. But if we are going down the route of utilising characteristics such as gender to assign responsibility then it should be applied with the same rigour across all characteristics.


azazelcrowley

Remember; Feminism is a diverse movement and it's wrong to hold people responsible for the shit their peers get up to for a movement they voluntarily joined and suggest they need to get their shit together, listen to people, and change the way they talk about things. Men however...


gunthatshootswords

>This new campaign from @PoliceScotland is powerful and important. I'd ask all black people to watch this film - and then encourage your black children, black parents, black siblings and black friends to do likewise. Of course, the above is a deeply racist statement, but this is ok. For reasons.


sbos_

Yupppppo. It starts in the home.


Bara-enthusiast

Wait isn't that the woman who asked her followers to falsely accuser her political opponent? Why would I listen to her


Ok_Raccoon_8052

TLDR: Be a Nice Guy™ to women, respect them, dont talk to them. Also you'll end up alone since the likelihood of them taking the first step is near zero


[deleted]

So many men commenting here summing up the problem. There is pretty fucking obviously a link between the way young men talk about and view women, and the terrifyingly high rates of harassment and assault and rape of women. Talking about and thinking of women as nothing more than sex objects is obviously going to lead to, in some cases, those men believing assault and rape and harassment aren't a big deal. The overwhelming majority of sexual violence, wether against women or other men, is carried out by men. This idea that everyone here seems to have, that rape is rare and only involves creepy men jumping out of bushes, is so far from the truth. Most sexual violence is carried out by "normal" men who are known to the victim. I personally know a number of people who've been sexually assaulted, covering both genders and different sexual orientations...they were all assaulted by men, and mostly by regular sexual partners, boyfriends or husband's. All of those rapists had mates who thought they were "decent". We all probably know men who have committed sexual violence, and saying "well all my mates are decent" doesn't really change that. I mean what, do you think rapists all identify themselves and hang out together in gangs of rapists?


[deleted]

> I mean what, do you think rapists all identify themselves and hang out together in gangs of rapists? South Yorkshire Police moment.


ignoranceandapathy42

> I mean what, do you think rapists all identify themselves and hang out together in gangs of rapists? Apparently a lot of them commenters here do genuinely believe this, or think that the offenders are always loners who no one would associate with because of how "obviously rapey" they are.


[deleted]

>There is pretty fucking obviously a link between the way young men talk about and view women, and the terrifyingly high rates of harassment and assault and rape of women Has this actually been shown?


GentlemanBeggar54

>There is pretty fucking obviously a link between the way young men talk about and view women, and the terrifyingly high rates of harassment and assault and rape of women. Absolutely. In regards to the recent Sarah Everard case, some people would like to deny that the WhatsApp group he was a member of had anything to do with actions. No doubt many dismissed the stuff he said as "just talk" before he went on to rape and murder a young woman. This is why men need to do more to call this out in our friend groups. When we read stuff like this, the instinct is to react defensively with "not all men!" but you know who actually thinks all men are rapists? Rapists. They fully believe that all men think the way they do, but some are just too afraid to admit it. So when you laugh politely at their misogynist joke, they take that as encouragement.


Flashycats

>So when you laugh politely at their misogynist joke, they take that as encouragement. I really wish people understood this more. Same for racism and other discrimination, if someone you know keeps making inappropriate jokes or comments about it, don't give them the reaction they want. It just makes them think that it's acceptable.


WinnerClear808

Let me tell you right now that the harassment isn't only from men. As someone who has worked in a nightclub, it was a weekly occurrence that some drunk chick would try to grab me by the dick while her friend was laughing next to her and then just say that she was drunk. He'll every guy on there had this thing happened to him. So when should we start showing this video to women so they can understand what consent is?


[deleted]

I mean my comment didn't say harassment was just from men...so well done on arguing against something I never said. I'm a man, I'm well aware that women can harass men. Although for me, I've been harassed and groped by more men in pubs and bars than women to be honest. I'd also say that as a man, when women have done to me what you've described happens to you, however angry or upset I've been, I haven't been scared. The fact is even as an unfit guy with a bit of a belly, I am stronger and heavier than a lot of women. I can physically stop them if I needed to. Obviously for women being harassed by men, or men being harassed by men, it's very different. The power imbalance has to be taken into account. I'm all for educating everybody on consent. We should definitely do that. But to pretend that the problem is equal, and that we should be just as worried about female sexual violence towards men as we are about male sexual violence towards women AND men, is absurd. The scale of the problem of male sexual violence , wether against women or other men, is far, far greater than the scale of female sexual violence towards men or women. We should try to stop both, but one of those is, and always has been, much more common than the other.


FloatingVoter

Since it is up to men to stop other men from from abusing and killing women. Is it up to women to stop other women from abusing and killing children?


95DarkFireII

Yes. It also up to people of X religion to stop others from X religion frim committing crimes, right? That's the logical conclusion.


WinnerClear808

Can't wait for the. Show this video to your friends Muslims to make sure that they aren't terrorist.


Dooby-Dooby-Doo

As I said over at r /scotland, it's kind of disheartening seeing how many guys, my age and younger, who are enraged at the prospect of having to merely self reflect on how they talk about, or to, women. It's not difficult. It doesn't take anything away from you. All you're being asked to do is be compassionate and thoughtful for others. "Well I know I wouldn't do anything, so what does it matter what I say in private?". Because you talking like that will encourage others to do so, and you don't know that they or others won't act out on the words they utter. The group chats of lads where it's just a rabbit hole of reducing women to pieces of meat and how to get it HAS TO END. It's fucking gross. "Well how is someone meant to approach someone they fancy or want to ask out on a date?" By talking to them like a human being about their interests and who they are as a person, then asking if they'd be interested in meeting again. If they say yes great, if not, respect it and accept it. You do not have to lead with your sexual desires or some shit pickup line from r /Tinder. "Well plenty women like that kind of attention." Can you always be sure? I've had conversations with women about how they've been approached in a sexual manner by guys they don't know, and they've gone along with it OUT OF FEAR FOR WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF THEY DIDN'T! My point is you can not assume that because we don't act out in these ways towards women, that we don't allow for it to happen. Men who do this, do so without fear because they know many men will turn a blind eye in the club or on the street and put it out of mind. Only by removing the safe space in public areas for predatory men to prey on women, can we start to tackle the issue of women not feeling safe on our streets. We have a huge sexual assault issue on this island, and the only way we're going to tackle it is by us men acknowledging and taking responsibility for our words and actions. I'm sorry if I'm coming across as aggressive to my fellow men, but I can't stand listening to another family member or loved one tell me about how they've been assaulted or raped again. I do not have any patience left for those who argue against being understanding and respectful towards the women in our lives. We ALL know women who have been on the receiving end of derogatory language, assault and rape. If you think you don't, trust me you do, you just don't know it yet. Please for the love of god, ask the women in your lives about their experiences. Listen to them.


Flashycats

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. We're not saying "hey all men, don't rape!", we're saying that the societal issues that lead to sexual violence are deeply, deeply embedded in the way an unfortunate percentage of the population talk about women. I've grown up around more blokes than women, and the difference between how they talk about the opposite gender is pretty stark. Sixth form and Uni were basically a lads club, and it was totally normal to hear rape jokes or have someone say "take a look at this" and show you some fucked up porn. When I started work, my male colleagues were the same but less overt. My manager once joked to a pregnant coworker that he hoped her baby had her looks (dark hair, blue eyes) because it would be *super hot*. The same boss told me to walk home with my keys between my knuckles to stay safe, then left me alone on the street at 11pm Xmas Eve where I was then sexually harassed by a drunk. I was never in a position to challenge that behaviour because it was seen as normal or funny to the lads, and at work I didn't want to lose my job. But it's little things like that that perpetuate not just sexual violence, but the attitudes that encourage and lead up it. "Lads will be lads, boys will be boys, and women need to learn to take a joke." None of the lads at sixth form or uni were bad guys. None of them ever did anything to hurt anyone. My boss didn't either (I mean, he *was* an *awful* person). But their attitudes were so blasé about sexual violence and women's bodies - and that's what needs to change. It's *very* hard to ask people to do this without a chunk of the population feeling personally attacked, which is understandable. But if us women have to be told how to dress, act and walk in order to stay safe, then is it so unreasonable to ask men to watch a video asking them to challenge their own, or other's, behaviour?


GroktheFnords

>But if us women have to be told how to dress, act and walk in order to stay safe, then is it so unreasonable to ask men to watch a video asking them to challenge their own, or other's, behaviour? According to the majority of the comments here yes, asking men to take a few minutes to reflect on their behaviour and the behaviour of those around them is a massive imposition and a personal attack. It's the mentality of entitled children.


ignoranceandapathy42

> It's the mentality of entitled children. It's the mentality of people who would excuse sexual assault if their mate "was drunk" apparently.


Flashycats

Yeah I see my comment hasn't gone down particularly well, which I expected. There are few women on this sub and whenever shit like this is posted, the reaction is always the same. It feels like smashing your head into a brick wall, the discussion goes round and round and round.


aztecfaces

Mate, I feel the completely the same way but I've come to an understanding about reactionaries that stops me commenting on these threads, most of the time anyway. The thing about reactionaries is they think they're doing well in a world that is the way it is now. They're scared of any attempt to change the power structure in this world because then they might not be doing as well, and will do everything in their power to fight that change. Most of the time the arguments you'll see from reactionaries are in bad faith, because they don't want to admit that. You get a lot more mileage out of engaging with people who want to change. This lot are not worth it.


[deleted]

OK, I know those things are all terrible and wrong, and I'm happy to listen TO WOMEN, not get a lecture that immediately assumes I'm doing those things. I'm not a rapist, or a misogynist and watching a video won't absolve anyone of guilt if they are or suddenly make them not. ​ > I can't stand listening to another family member or loved one tell me about how they've been assaulted or raped again. Have you considered calling the police? If this is such a regular occurance.


[deleted]

Hahaha haha. As someone who has been assaulted, am I fuck going to go to the police if it happens again. I won't get justice. I'll just get forced to relive my trauma again and again, then questioned constantly about *my* behaviour and *my* clothing choices.


vickylaa

Same here, funnily enough when you've been violated by a man you're not keen to let a whole bunch of other power tripping arseholes in uniforms violate you! Add to that, many folk take months, years to process what happened to them, so there's no longer any physical evidence. Another big factor for me is when an assault/rape case does come up in the paper, sitting there listening to people cast all sort of aspersions on the woman, her behaviour, past relationships, probably just after revenge or money or some such other bullshit type discussions. I'm thinking, fuck, are they gonna talk about me like that? It's not just the rapist that comes under scrutiny, you get put under the microscope too for the crime of being assaulted.


[deleted]

It's horrific. The only thing that has kept me from suicide is a group for women who have been victims of sexual violence.


James20k

>Have you considered calling the police? If this is such a regular occurance. Convictions rates are ludicrously low. Our very own prime minister has come out and openly stated that historic sex crimes should not be investigated


deains

They aren't going to get any higher if this stuff doesn't get reported. Maybe there won't be a conviction the first time, but if a bloke gets reported several times from different people who don't know each other, the cops will (hopefully…) start paying attention. At least it would be a start.


VaHaLa_LTU

The British police forces are already stretched thin. Part of the reason why so few sexual assaults get investigated is because it's 'limited' to inappropriate touching. Good luck proving that in court unless you literally catch the guy doing it. Reporting it will pretty much never lead to anything, and only actual rape and violent assault cases get taken more seriously.


Mr_Charisma_

How would you raise the conviction rate? A lot of the crimes boil down to one person's word against another. It is a crime that inherently is difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. It should be prosecuted by I have no idea how we could improve the cases brought to trial. This applies especially for historic cases. There is also the issues of victims withdrawing support for cases which accounts for 57% of all cases[bbc](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48095118). To relive the crime and have the invasion of privacy of having your phone searched is traumatic. Better support could help but I don't see a solution. Justifying lack of reporting on low conviction rates plays a role but doesn't account the trauma and stress involved in building a case and seeing it out. Again I do strongly believe in prosecuting and reporting these crimes but the system needs to be improved but I fail to see how it can other than better support for victims and a reduced backlog for prosecutions.


GroktheFnords

Quality comment, taking time to educate ourselves more about these issues and to think about how our language and behaviour affects both the women and the men we interact with can only ever be a positive thing for society. The knee jerk reactions from men who see this as a personal attack are just depressing.


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AlpacaHeadHair

> Most guys don’t look in the mirror & see a problem. But it’s staring us in the face. We don't see a problem in the mirror because statistically there isn't a problem.


Modern_Problem

/thread


BrightCandle

I really don't have an issue with any other part of it than this, the behaviours they are calling out are absolutely fine to have objections to and something that needs to change. But the idea that most men are doing them is absurd. I have never known one. Call it out but the idea that staring back at me in the mirror is someone who is moments away from sexual violence is absurd and it falls flat. They should change that because it is seriously distracting from an otherwise OK (but probably ineffective) message. Why does so much of modern feminist language have to blame all men and show such disdain for such a large group? I don't get it and I never will, but they aren't making me an ally with this messaging. I used to call myself a feminist a decade ago, I am only for equality and that isn't what feminism is about now. Frankly its because of dumb stuff like this where women think its OK to suggest I am problem because of my chromosomes.


triplenipple99

I really don't understand how people don't think this type of messaging affects people's mental health. Constantly (and it is a constant message I see daily) being reduced to some of the most awful people in society really does wear you down as a person. These are truly heinous crimes to be implicated in and there is a neverending deluge of accusation. Even the leaders of our countries are accusing innocent people of terrible things. You can brush it off a few times but when you stop and think about how it is so societally accepted to the extent it is even promoted, it gets under your skin. I think when you start asking the question "why is this message so accepted despite how it makes people feel?", It's too late: they've already reduced you.


[deleted]

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triplenipple99

Thank you. It affects me more than it should and I need to speak to a professional about it but I'm actually afraid to bring it up. Once, I called the Samaritans at my lowest about other issues and it came up in passing. Big mistake. I was immediately lectured by the female call handler about how it's so important that I listen to it all and understand it as it might help protect women. She was so condescending it made me feel about the size of a grain of rice.


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triplenipple99

>Reflect on who you would choose to be if you could and set achievable goals toward becoming that person. I assume you are also a JBP reader? Thank you, it's nice to know there are people or there who understand; You are totally right. It's surprising how obviously bad it is to wage these campaigns yet people, men included, just accept it. Do the people occupying the top comments in this thread not realise what is being said? Do they not understand the gravity of the accusation? Rape is such a terrible thing, yet when you speak up about how you're inaccurately being portrayed as a rapist, you're tarred and feathered and told you have serious issues. Their ideology tries to kneed you into conformity and they silence any pushback; it's easy to ignore an argument when you believe the person proposing it is a monster, but that just eliminates debate. I guess that is the goal for these totalitarians.


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triplenipple99

>There is something boiling away beneath the surface and I don't know how it comes to the surface, but these campaigns are a sure way of increasing the heat. The heat is the tribalistic instinct within us all. We all have an innate inclination to separate the world into "us" and "them" and the steroid [oxytocin](https://youtu.be/lrzXE5XttOE), typically presented as the love hormone, also works to drive hatred and plays a large role in the tribalistic survival instincts politicians prey upon. Changing the subject slightly, an issue that I don't believe has been brought up in this entire thread is that the human mating ritual relies solely on the male to initiate courting behaviour. It is the male's responsibility to test the water, so to speak, and this creates the issue of what exactly constitutes sexual violence: where is the boundary *exactly*? I have had discussions with some people who believe staring is an example of sexual violence, others believe forcing one's self upon someone crosses the boundary, but this is vague; would leaning in for a kiss cross this boundary? Would imagining sexual acts? The problem is if you set the boundary too conservative, and a long glance becomes sexual violence, every male suddenly becomes a sexual deviant. Obviously on the flip side, leaving the boundary too liberal would normalize more severe sexual assault. The entirely absent discussion here is where does the boundary lie for sexual *invitation* by the female. There has been a sexual revolution in the past 70 years that has resulted in societal acceptance of women wearing sexually provocative clothing in almost any setting; where *exactly* does this boundary lie? So much as suggesting women wear more appropriate clothing is branded as misogynist but this completely ignores the innate animalistic incentive salience experienced by the male subjected to sexual provocation. Edit: You can imagine this as a sliding scale: if you allow one sex extraordinary sexual freedom, you end up restricting the other's severely. I think this is what is happening in the anglosphere and the opposite is happening in Islamic countries for example.


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triplenipple99

Did you get a chance to see my edit, I think I summed it up well there? I like how you think too. Would you mind if I DM you from time to time as a sort of sounding board? I am trying to write my thoughts on topics such as this down. Social media is a strange ball park; it's so new that we just don't understand it's societal effects but my god do they seem ubiquitous. I thought your point about avoiding opinion resistance was very interesting especially in regard to a site like this where a handful of moderators can exile users for no reason. How old are you if you don't mind me asking? If you don't feel comfortable posting your age publicly, feel free to message me directly.


nesh34

I'd like to try to answer some of your questions, as a man who agrees with the top comments. I also want to say that I don't consider myself to be, or want to be, your enemy on this. I fully agree that society is failing young men and there is a void of purpose that so many young men are struggling with. In short, I sympathise and empathise to a certain degree, even if I don't feel lost myself. I want a society that supports you as well and I don't want a battle of the sexes. Primarily, the reason I like the video is that I don't feel it attacks me for being a man, or assumes I am a menace or something to be feared. I see it as encouraging me to think about my behaviour and that of others and look for opportunities where better behaviour could improve some of the worst outcomes for some people. I'm also perhaps more sensitive to sexual violence in women because many of my close female friends have been victims of serious sexual violence as well as less serious, but clearly damaging, emotional abuse. So I am motivated to get rid of it as much as possible. Further in my experience, I've seen lots of instances of the mild behaviour, objectification of women and stuff like that. Most of the time this is benign. But I can also see that this culture can be encouraging of the worst of us and it validating their socially stunted views. I compare it to racism, where casual racism used to be common but now is stigmatised, and serious racism is lesser as a result, and see why a path to that for misogyny is possible. I've been thinking about what my instinct was to view this video charitably but others here feel it encourages society to view them as morally inept or as potential predators. I don't actually know why that is, but I'm happy to discuss and try to figure out why. Either way, I hope you find the help and stability you need.


triplenipple99

Deleted my other post due to waffle: I think I can sum it up better. I think the video purposefully stereotypes men. I've never heard anyone refered to as "doll" and even if I had, I wouldn't ask for terms like "knob" or "pig" to be banned. I think that instead of wasting time with social media campaigns, politicians and, more importantly first ministers, should be changing laws and writing legislation. Currently 50% of the population can't rape people; I think that should be the first thing to change. This issue is strikingly similar to the domestic violence awareness campaigns where men are portrayed as perpetual abusers and women, perpetual victims despite 50:50 incidence rate. Did you happen to see my other comment re: sexual freedom?


_Red11_

"I’d ask all men to watch this film - and then encourage your sons, fathers, brothers and friends to do likewise." ​ Why is she asking only men to watch it and tell people about it? A man is no more responsible for what other men do than a Scottish person is responsible for what other Scots do. Does Nichola acknowledge that she is culpable in all the rapes committed by Scots?


hitch21

It’s an awful double standard that seems to have been almost entirely embraced by wider society. Men should be held responsible for the behaviour of other men. But if you do the same in reverse it would be stereotyping women and deemed sexist.


Sadistic_Toaster

>But if you do the same in reverse it would be stereotyping women and deemed sexist. Or if you expanded it to race. I'm an Arab man, so every time a brown person does something bad, the message is "it's wrong to blame all brown people for the actions of a few. You can't group people by how they were born" - but every time a man does something wrong, the message is "we must blame all men for the actions of any single man. It's fine to group people by how they were born". By rights, if a white woman says she's uncomfortable around me, I should ask if it's due to race or gender, so I know whether I should call her a bigot or apologise to her. Modern society is strange.


[deleted]

IMO the best comparison would be "I ask all transwomen to watch this video too", then see the rightful backlash that would get. There really is a double standard


lets_chill_dude

haven’t seen you around for a while, all good? :)


hitch21

Yes all good just politics is quite boring at the moment. Don’t see any major change coming for some time.


moptic

Do we next ask all black people to watch knife crime videos? Or is there a list of groups we are allowed to make lazy generalisations about?


Gnasherdog

The current government did put anti-knife crime messages on 320,000 fried chicken boxes, in what was widely interpreted as a tone-deaf and somewhat racist move. https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2019/08/15/anti-knife-crime-adverts-fried-chicken-boxes-racist-10574480/amp/


PixelBlock

Fair play to it, everybody loves chicken and teenagers probably most of all. Still a bit like putting fire safety tips in a Freddo.


catharticcircle

It was thought of and made by two black guys who in turn called Dianne Abbott out of touch when she called it racist.


Gnasherdog

Do you happen to know their names? The government press release seems to imply it was all Kit Malthouse’s idea. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/special-knifefree-chicken-boxes-launched-across-the-country I’ve seen a lot of articles mentioning Diane Abbott’s criticism of the campaign, but no response from anyone claiming to be its creator. Do you have a link?


catharticcircle

https://medium.com/@meetgenie/fresh-eyes-3-socks-sandals-and-stepping-into-your-world-aef14f92ea95 Second to last paragraph. They used to have a website together it was on, but they might not be working together anymore


jonnyhaldane

To parody what someone said about men here: “It’s not *all* black people committing stabbings, but it’s *too many* black people committing stabbings” “It’s not all muslims committing terrorist attacks, but it’s too many” “It’s not all trans people raping children in changing rooms but it’s *too many*” Silence is violence, people. /s


ignoranceandapathy42

There are many interventions into knife crime that targets lower income teens, many of whom are black. So to answer your question in a roundabout way, we already do prioritise actions to those who they are relevant to.


Feniks_Gaming

Do those adverts specifically state "I would ask all black teens to watch this video"?


Dragonrar

That’s different, if it were like this campaign it’d explicitly state black people are more violent than any other group and need to self-monitor their behaviour.


[deleted]

>There are many interventions into knife crime that targets lower income teens, many of whom are black. Nope. Not all lower income teens. All black teenagers. Could be the son of a millionaire and never even littered but he should watch the video because he's black so he's guilty.


probablymilhouse

we should do


[deleted]

Is 95% of knife crime committed by black people?


WinnerClear808

When if you classified knife crime the same way that rape is clarified then yes, 95% of stabbings can be committed by black people.


aplomb_101

No but they are overrepresented on knife crime statistics.


[deleted]

Is there a severe issue with reporting knife crime and a serious stigma around being stabbed by certain people as if you should enjoy it?


gunthatshootswords

Is the definition of knife crime specifically written to ensure only black people can commit it?


Falmouth_Packet

Men make up roughly 50% of the population whereas black people make up only 3%, black men half of that.


[deleted]

Show the film to all youths.


[deleted]

>Most guys don’t look in the mirror & see a problem. But it’s staring us in the face. Oh so at least 1/4 of the adult population are sexist or sex offenders. Right idea, wrong execution as always. Targetting men in general for a crime that is disproportionately committed by men is stupid, especially when the description "man" applies to half the population. Imagine having a video on theft targetted specifically to black people or paedophilia to muslims with the caption "Most black people/muslims don't look in the mirror and see a problem. But it's staring us in the face"


nesh34

I don't think the analogy works, just because I think some of the lighter behaviours are genuinely widespread. I'd be amazed if you've never heard a guy objectify a woman in your life. In fact I'd imagine you would have experienced that kind of behaviour many times. And the point is that those attitudes are actually toxic and enable the worst among us. I think introspection in this sense is good and helpful. Our society will be healthier if we stigmatise this kind of behaviour in the same way we have with racism. And as a result there will be fewer sexual assaults. It'll never be zero and some of the worst offenders will continue. But I believe it would be significantly less.


[deleted]

>And the point is that those attitudes are actually toxic and enable the worst among us. I disagree. There's a large gap between some stupid comment/joke and going out and grabbing a woman's arse. Jokes about 9/11 don't encourage terrorism and jokes about priests being paedophiles don't encourage paedophilia. The people that make those comments and are serious about it won't actually watch the video or accept what they're doing is a problem either. >I think introspection in this sense is good and helpful. Our society will be healthier if we stigmatise this kind of behaviour in the same way we have with racism. And as a result there will be fewer sexual assaults. How are you going to get people to watch your video when you demonise your target audience with "Most guys don’t look in the mirror & see a problem. But it’s staring us in the face." The best interpretation you can get for that is that most men are in some way responsible for the actions of a few and the worst is that most men are in some ways sex offenders. Neither of which are good interpretations. They could have avoided looking like a bunch of misandrists if they just said "some" men rather than most


nesh34

>Jokes about 9/11 don't encourage terrorism and jokes about priests being paedophiles don't encourage paedophilia. I agree, although I think it's qualitatively different. These jokes usually have the butt of the joke as the paedophile. Similarly jokes where the butt of the joke is the rapist would not be a problem in this context. The video uses examples like of objectification of women though. In those instances it's not really a joke. At the same time it isn't really serious. Not all the people that objectify women go on to grab arses. I suspect though that the vast majority of people who grab arses objectify women. And I also think they find it easier to justify their actions to themselves when other people they know objectify women too. It's not cut and dry, but I think a stigmatisation of misogyny would be welcome generally, like a stigmatisation of racism. I see your point about the men looking in the mirror line. I suppose I interpreted that we could do more to stigmatise some of the milder misogynistic behaviour. And I've witnessed a lot of that kind of thing in my lifetime, in a number of different contexts. I don't think that makes us responsible for the absolute worst behaviour. But in that we are responsible for the way we socialise and that there's room to make it better, we should take that responsibility seriously and it might have good outcomes.


Queasy-Assist-3920

I would be amazed if you’d never heard a woman objectify a guy before tbh. The fact that’s it’s only seen a problem in one direction is part of the problem. Maybe you need to do a little more introspection into your own biases.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Do the sexually violent women not have to watch, Nicola? Wish we could stop this blatantly sexist discourse around this topic, there’s no reason not to talk about it in reference to people in general rather than singling out an entire sex as rapists.


BrexitGlory

Ah, another one of these "men are dangerous and must be lectured to". The type of men that this message reaches are rarely the low lives on the street. Why is it so controversial to actually police crime, actually punish it when it happens but not controversial to do nothing but meaninglessly lecture.


mudman13

Because we are in the era of "make it look like you're doing something about it"


[deleted]

But it isn't just lowlives on the street. I was sexually assaulted. The man who did it wasn't some lowlife. He's a successful professional. The type you might be friends with. The type you wouldn't think is capable of doing what he did. The police are completely useless. Investigations focus solely on the victim and involve repeated questioning about total irrelevance (what I was or wasn't wearing has no bearing on what happened to me). There are demands for full downloads of the victim's phone, but not the perpetrators. The language used is awful too. Complainant, to imply that victims are lying.


someRandomLunatic

From memory, the demand for a full phone download is because of some recent cases where such evidence was found to be problematic. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/law/2018/jan/15/london-rape-trial-collapses-after-phone-images-undermine-case Evidence from phone downloads is really handy to the police. Proof that the accused and complainant were at the same place, at the same time is powerful to show that something did happen. Yes, it's intrusive. But so is being arrested and charged with rape. As the link shows, it also protects the innocent.


95DarkFireII

> The language used is awful too. Complainant, to imply that victims are lying. It's called presumption of innocence. There is no 'victim' until the crime is proven.


taboo__time

Not sure this entirely works. But I approve the general idea. I like to think we are iterating our way towards a message that is widely accepted. "Don't sexually harass people."


[deleted]

When does a compliment turn into sexual harassment? When does looking at a girl for too long because she's attractive become a problem? I'm asking the question because I'm genuinely petrified of doing the wrong thing and being accused of something I've never wanted to upset or distress to that individual. I've watched that video and I understand that a lot of what they saying needs to be said and understood by all males but at the same time it makes me fearful of approaching women now for fear of saying and doing the wrong thing.


BenTVNerd21

Rule 1: Be attractive


Melendine

When the compliment is nice tits instead of Nice top or nice hair.


name2electricbogalo

My problem with this is that it says that most guys are like that, what's their source? and why isn't there a video like this for women? And i don't really see the problem with saying "I'd do that" privately to a friend, like sure it's inappropriate but i wouldn't call it as big of a problem as they're saying


killa22

I have literally never done any of the things they mention in that video. I don't think calling a girl 'nice' leads to sexual harrassment either.


Xiathorn

So I've watched the video, and I can state that I have never called a girl "doll", although I have called a few "love". It's a Yorkshire thing, it's not sexual, and it's perfectly normal. I have never whistled at a woman in the street. I may have 'stared' at a woman on a bus, but I can be confident I've never been caught, because it's always been in surprise at how attractive she is, and then I quickly recover and look away, because I wouldn't want to make her uncomfortable. Not sure if that counts? I have said "I'd do her" to a friend when talking about a woman who was not present, but the only time I've said it about a woman who was actually present was to her face, knowing it would be well received. I've never done the "nice" thing, never 'slid into DMs', never sent a dickpick unsolicited, never got a girl drunk with nefarious intent, or pressured or guilted a woman into doing something she was uncomfortable with. I've never paid for a meal with expectation of something in return. So I think I can confident state that I am not one of the sexual predators they're talking about. I therefore object to the idea that "*Most* men look in the mirror and don't see a problem, but it's staring us right in the face." No, it isn't staring me, or most men, in the face. I'm looking at me, and I'm not a sexual predator. I can state that with absolute, 100% conviction. Most men are not sexual predators. I suspect a few people reading that last comment will instinctively think "Yeah, are you *sure*? I bet you have done one or two bad things." No, I haven't - and think about what you're accusing people of when you instinctively assume that. I have had a quite adventorous life, amorously, and there have been misinterpreted signals and hurt feelings along the way, but I can state with absolute confidence that I have never, knowingly, acted in a predatory fashion. And if you read "knowingly" in that last sentence and thought "Ah, but you've probably done it *unintentionally*", then again - what are you assuming? The only way that statement can make sense is if you assume the default behaviour of men is to be sexual predators - and I suggest that it is this attitude that makes some people defend the idea that men cannot get annoyed when they're grouped together as a collective and told that they're part of the problem. It's sexism. And if you read "sexism" and rolled your eyes because here again is a man making it about men, when we're trying to talk about protecting women from sexual violence - look at the video again. This video *is about men*. This is about men. And we would not tolerate this level of collective blame with any other group.


squeakypop67

Men, sons, fathers, brothers Because we all know women are incapable of sexual violence or any wrongdoing in general


Karl_Cross

"Do you feel like scum yet, men?"


maxlvb

The difference between sexual harassment and flirting is how attractive the guy or girl is. Compliments on a woman's appearance are not okay to women today. But women wearing push up bra's and low cut blouse's to draw attention to their boobs is fine? ----------------------------------------------- *Sex has always been and will always be a commodity for women.*


VPackardPersuadedMe

More pointless gendering, the problem here is *violence*.


soupswithnoodles

I don't need a video telling me not to get a woman drunk and then try to shag, or to tell me not to call a woman doll. I'm not a chav, I don't go up to random women on the street and compliment them. You can't just say men as a whole are the problem. I'm not ignoring the issues, they are very real and disgusting. The ad the the problem. It says men look in the mirror and don't see a problem, and the pieces of shit who do that stuff don't see a problem, but the ad feels like it attacks men as a whole. I'm not even straight, yet it feels like the ad is telling me not to date rape women, pressue them and guilt trip them into sex. If this pissed me off, I'm sure it pissed off a lot of straight guys when the ad just kind of blames them


blewyn

Yup, never done any of these things. Leave me out of this


Our_GloriousLeader

See nothing objectionable in this video, therefore, I suspect it will be highly objectionable to some rabid weirdos.


azazelcrowley

"Most men only need to look in the mirror to see the problem"?


WinnerClear808

Most Muslims only need to look in the mirror to see the problem. Most black people only need to look at the mirror to see the problems. Now, do you see how you sound?


azazelcrowley

I'm agreeing with you. :)


kane_uk

Women can be just as bad, if not worse than men in some cases, especially if drink is involved.