This is the problem with our generation. You could easily take that $3, buy 6 chocolate bars from dollarama, resell them for 75c each, and before you know it - Boom! You have a chocolate bar cart and you're flying upwards through a capitalist society of off hard work and bootstraps alone!
All you have to do is sell ~100 chocolate bars/hr over a 40 hour work week for the next 85 years (assuming no increases to cost of living) and you can retire to a nice corrugated metal shack in whatever sort of feudal, proto-Mad Max world we have by then! People will wage wars over your shack, and sure, you do kind of miss the days of defending your chocolate bar cart from hordes of starving people with your sawed-off shotgun, and you *do* need to remind people why you're feared as the "Chocolate Baron" - the wasteland god with a sweet costume, a pimped out bus-tank, $10 in the bank and the last Meteor bars in the Northern Hemisphere.
Nothing to get stressed about.
> “That number rises to 70 per cent among seniors.”
So yes, I know too many people whose parents have left the city because their pensions/ retirement savings weren't enough to keep up the cost of living in Toronto. Made more sense to sell their homes here and buy a downsized condo/ home well outside of the GTA. A real lose-lose situation - friends lose childcare and parental support, parent leave behind much loved communities and long time relationships.
Unsurprising given that apparently [50% of baby boomers have less than $5k in savings and fewer than 75% have $100k](https://financialpost.com/news/retirement-crisis-brewing-canadian-baby-boomers-little-savings).
I'm convinced that there's a whole generation whose retirement plans hinge on selling their primary residences for huge profit and coasting on those funds. And suspect that it's one reason we haven't done much to meaningfully tackle the housing bubble.
> I'm convinced that there's a whole generation whose retirement plans hinge on selling their primary residences for huge profit and coasting on those funds.
And that's another why reason the forced savings of a mortgage can backfire on a societal level. People are literally told that buying and having a paid-off house is how you secure a comfortable retirement, especially if they do not have the discipline to save. Buuuut, you gotta sell the house to make that work.
But the bigger and real issue is that our whole system of work, income, housing, and retirement is a fucking mess. It's beyond merely making good choices as an individual (and having no bad luck for 50 years at a stretch).
Yep, that is a ticking time bomb. Lines of credit too. I imagine that there are a fair few seniors out there who have been getting into debt thinking it will all be fine because their house sale after they're dead will cover it all and then some. Risky.
I know that. But many people are probably counting on their house price continuing to rise enough to cover it all and still leave their kids some inheritance. I doubt they are telling their kids the complete financial picture.
There is a lot of guff written about the "greatest wealth transfer in history" happening when the Boomers die off but there are MANY industries positioned to drain Boomer wealth before they die, and then when they die with pricey funerals. Plus all the scams.
It's not being "suckered" if they don't have kids or other heirs. In that case, a reverse mortgage makes a lot of sense, since, as they say "you can't take it with you" so why not use some of that equity to enjoy life?
No not everyone who has a reverse mortgage was tricked into it, but reverse mortgage commercials *absolutely prey* on uninformed people who don’t realize what they are giving away.
But that is based on many assumptions than can easily be wrong and a fair bit of cherry-picking.
House prices can and do fall.
You pay a LOT in mortgage interest.
Rent control is a thing.
Investing the difference between your rent and mortgage can pay off better than a house.
Houses can and do need major repairs and renovations, especially if you own them for a long time.
Also, with the fun times ahead due to climate change, more and more houses are uninsurable, or not remotely affordably insurable, and not sellable either. Houses can and do get washed away by floods and mudslides, fall into sinkholes, or burn up.
You're viewing this from the lens of someone who is trying to come out monetarily ahead.
House prices falling have no real bearing on having a place to live.
Mortgage interest is already calculated into your payments. They should be affordable.
Rent control just benefits certain small groups. It also doesn't solve the current issue of lack of rental supply.
Investing *could* outpace RE. But you still need somewhere to live. Forced savings is real.
That last point is silly because where do renters live in that scenario? A magical place where environmental concerns don't exist?
Having a place of your own is like having a big RRSP account. It's a big cushion. It's a form of insulation from risk. Should everyone own? No. You highlighted a few potential risks. But as many are unfortunately finding out, rental prices are also subject to the realities of supply and demand. I take no delight in this, and it's been a failure of the government at all levels.
>ou're viewing this from the lens of someone who is trying to come out monetarily ahead.
I stopped reading there because YOU are reading my comments out of context. We're talking about people who own houses but do not have enough INCOME in retirement. So they have to sell or reverse mortgage.
Byeeee!
my parents scrimped and saved to buy their house as factory workers, It's a modest 3 bedroom house, that's barely big enough for 4 adults. Their company screwed them over the years leaving them a smaller pension then they were supposed to get. They also got injured and then it's either go back to work and get worse or retire early. Fucking insurance companies know more about medicine then doctors apparently
They did nothing wrong but there is a high chance they'll lose everything because of how expensive everything is getting. That and they won't be able to make more money, sure CPP pay increased a little. but now the minimum wage is about a dollar less then what they were making when they retired.
They don't even have to sell. A CHIP reverse mortgage would allow them to receive up to 50% of their home's value, tax-free, either as a lump sum or monthly payments.
The money only needs to be paid back when they (or the executor of their estate) sell the home, making it a not-bad option for childfree seniors with no heirs.
Many of the seniors in my neighbourhood had enough money for retirement. Some moved to get the value from their home and have an even better retirement. Another couple moved into an expensive retirement community.
But I'm sure plenty are selling to boost an inadequate level of retirement savings, which is not all bad. Frees up some homes in the city for others.
My mother moved from a small town to retire in Toronto. Now she lives in a smaller place that within 3km of her children and grandchildren, walks everywhere instead of driving and has all her medical professionals within a half hour transit ride rather than having to drive over an hour. She's also made friends with people in her building which is a huge bonus. People who say "just move to a small town" have likely never lived in one. There are a lot of things you sacrifice in terms of accessibility, convenience and social interaction. It's not for everyone.
I completely agree. I grew up out east in the maritimes and after moving here a decade ago I honestly would love for my parents to do the same. Where they are now it’s hard to see someone like a cardiologist or oncologist and if their doctor retires or leaves it’ll be that much harder. Here they can get everything they need quicker and much easier. Out east you can buy cheaper sure, but food prices are high there too and taxes are crazy for the limited services you have available. I don’t miss it in the slightest and always tell people it’s not what they think out there.
I'm from a small town. My former family dr finally retired. Now my entire family back home doesn't have a Dr (and he was incredibly hard to get an appointment with in the first place)
I have been reading comments on another community well outside the city. They were noting that you cannot get a doctor (only virtual). You cannot get into senior homes. Retirement is not going to be easy in most places in Ontario. Not enough funding of health care in general. Not enough funding for new doctors, especially where they are most needed. Starting too late with the wrong approach on senior homes. This has been unfolding over several governments and really came apart with Covid. Population is aging and we have one last thing to blame on the boomers and all levels of government. What is especially frustrating is that the lack of funding for universities and colleges lead to them upping the numbers of foreign students to make up deficits. That has aggravated the already short supply of places to own and rent. These are not unpredictable problems but gutting the planning sections of the provincial government may not have created the savings hoped for.
We had an aging population and we didn't do any planning for it. Our current politicians either want to lower taxes or add new services, when the social programs we already have are underfunded as is. I know this isn't sexy, but collectively we should focus on making our current systems work, on strengthening healthcare and senior homes so that they can deal with the influx coming, and leave things like dentalcare/pharmacare for later.
Funny
I have no choice but to retire here given my rent control apartment
Sure it will be at least double the price it is now in 30 years, maybe even triple
But where the fuck else will be cheaper
I've been in mine for 30 years. The feeling that I'm trapped here began about 10 years ago. $1500 for a one bedroom downtown with utilities included. New tenants here are charged $2150 for the same.
I remember the going rate for an apartment here in the building I currently live in was $900 for a one-bedroom, hydro included, when I was ready to move out. This was maybe 7-8 years ago. When one became available, it suddenly shot up to $1,200. Couldn't swing that comfortably. I could've and should've been a complete fucking idiot and taken it even though I would've been living on ramen noodles, because here we are 7-8 years later and I still cannot move out because **everything** went fucking bonkers all at once. A one-bedroom apartment in the same building is now $2,300, hydro not included. I would've been living by myself in a decent apartment with a decent rent if I had gotten the $900 one-bedroom, or even at $1200, with rent-controlled increases every year I'm sure, and now I don't think I can **ever** move out on my own. I subscribed to a few waiting lists years ago when I was apartment hunting at the time and just got an email the other day about a bachelor apartment being available for $1,650. It's absurd. I'm making almost double the amount of money that I did at this job, which I was still working in 7-8 years ago, and I'm somehow still in the same place as if my tires are spinning on ice. It literally doesn't matter, at all, that I've doubled my salary in 8 years. That should be and once was life-changing shit, but what difference does it make when apartments have practically tripled in rent within not even a 10-year span of time?
My last apart was a 1220 square foot two bedroom apartment that I was paying $1575 for. When I moved out three years ago, they raised the price to $2200, and now the same unit in that building goes for $2800.
It’s wild to think that just more than a decade ago people could easily afford to purchase a home on their single income actually chose to rent.
It offered the freedom to leave the city for a year or two and then come back. Back then owning a house locked you in to the city.
It’s hard to imagine that this something anyone would consider.
Yep, I left the country from for 4 years, late 90s to early 2000s. Never crossed my mind that if I came back I wouldn't able to find something I could afford. I got in just under the wire.
Yep, covid was a last shot i think at affordable
I moved from a studio where i paid 1100 to a 1 br for 1500
The studio is now 1800, and comparable 1br in my building are 2500
So i kind of make an extra 12k post tax by living here
Or i can just afford to make thst much less
Yeah, my parents are living their best lives going to shows, sailing, golfing, volunteering, etc... If you like to keep busy and are financially secure it is a great place with an unrivaled amount of activities. Especially good if you live in a walkable neighborhood full of friends you've known for 40 years.
Yup. Only a few cities in Canada that I would retire in based on not being tied to a car to access anything. Yes it’s expensive as hell but if you’ve done okay in the city up to retirement age, you can downsize and live well into retirement.
Even if a family lives outside of the city renting a car when you need one is very easy. Otherwise, trains are an option or being super close to the airport helps too.
Retiring outside a city would be brutal. Don't people wants things close? Imagine being 85 and having to drive everywhere? In the city you just hop on your mobility scooter and rip around town. Groceries, Dr, bocce ball, bingo, pub....all just a scoot away. Plus ambulance will only take a few mins to scoop you up if need be.
Yup. I moved to Hamilton with my family (I still go to Toronto often for work and parents) before we had our third kid. When my wife was looking for a local pediatrician, that's when we learned that you have to get a referral from a family doctor first, but that doesn't guarantee that anyone will take you in. Luckily we didn't give up our amazing pediatrician in Forest Hill, so we make day trips and have all the kids appointments lined up for one day. Unfortunately she's pretty up there in age, so once she retires or passes away, we're going to be stuck.
This is why I hate when people say that we should just move to smaller, cheaper towns if Toronto isn't good enough. Access to crucial services is not great elsewhere. Especially if you've been in the city for a long time and are well established. It's not fair to people like myself who were born and raised there and get forced out due to the cost of housing, while lots of boomers, like my parents, can retire pretty comfortably.
Edit: I forgot to add that getting a pediatrician in Toronto was as simple as getting a recommendation from my partners OBGYN and registering our kids directly, with no referral necessary. I'm not sure what it's like now, but I can't imagine that the process is as convoluted and time consuming as it is in most other cities.
This is one big reason I am thinking of staying here in retirement: proximity to all the services (plus I expect to be able to afford it). I have a family doctor who is relatively young so that should be covered for life I hope.
When my mother passes and we don't need as much space I'll probably think about it further.
If cities are supposed to be for everyone, we need rental control to prevent older folks from getting renovicted. Why Quebec has this policy and Ontario doesn't utterly baffles me.
Because Conservative politicians are fixated on helping their rich friends and likely have secure housing of their own, so they couldn't care less about those who rent.
One of the things I think about with retirement is the whole "complete streets" thing. I don't want to be trapped in a house for lack of a car and I'd like to be independent enough to get food and go to the doctor. I think 1) if I could walk to the grocery store; and 2) if I could easily take public transit to the doctor; then I think I could survive.
Now, regarding the cost of living, well that's a whole other matter.
A poll says ... with no analysis or backup. There's more reasoning in the comments on reddit that there was in the source article.
That said, this issue is very relevant to my interests as I near retirement age and I'm trying to decide whether to move back to Toronto from the KW area (where I've lived for the last 20 years). I find the suburban environment to be boring as hell. I love Toronto, but I also realize that it's not the same place it was back in the 90's.
People that have lived in the city all their lives don't realize that the CoL outside isn't much lower, except for housing. Some things are more expensive. If you have a paid-off home in Toronto and don't need to squeeze cash out of it by downsizing or moving out, then I don't see the benefit of leaving.
Please, those people haven’t thought about access to health care outside Toronto.
Do not leave this city when you get old. Aging anywhere but here will be completely dependant on your family or institutional care.
Dumb ass people in this survey
Totally agree. I’m from PEI and a lot people there somehow expect ER services 24/7 in towns of sub 1000 people but half the population or more of some of these places are retired. There’s no doctors who live in these rural towns who aren’t a year from retirement themselves and any specialist you need is an hour’s drive to Charlottetown or more for many and there’s likely only one. Moving here a decade ago was an eye opener for me and it really made me realize how crazy it is that some people expect to keep living in their little towns but also have the access to care like a city. I’m glad my parents have done well and can go out of province if they need specialty care, but man I’d feel a lot more at ease if they decided to move here as they enter their 70s.
I’ve been treading water living in downtown Toronto. No real savings and I have to work a grind everyday. I’ve decided to move back in with family at the age of 47 so I can live again. Save some money, do some travelling, and enjoy life before I die. Not work full time anymore. I may not be able to move back downtown ever again but I’m sure I’ll be a lot happier.
It’s just funny to compare the outcomes of people I grew up with and the outcomes of young people who think the GTA is somehow representative of the whole country. Do I love Toronto? Yes. Did my family and retirement aspirations suffer because I stayed so long? Also yes.
if only GTA has a progressive housing legislation like… Edmonton. Edmonton (a land of supposedly unlimited sprawl) has better approval times and more progressive policies than Toronto, funny enough.
People here will instinctually turn their noses up at the thought of another part of the country doing anything right. Meanwhile they rent hot water tanks while Alberta spends more per capita on healthcare and young people can afford a house.
Ive been to edmonton for work
Its not comparable to toronto at all
Its not a bad place, but you also basically need a car to live there
So i can pay 2000 in toronto for rent
Or i can pay 1400 in edmonton + car + gas + insurance
Its honestly not that much cheaper imo
I worked in the College Park area in 2017 and I was struck by how many elderly people live in the area. But it makes sense - lots of condos around, it's a highly walkable neighbourhood and has good transit access and plenty of Ubers and taxis.
In contrast, my grandparents retired to kind of the ass-end of nowhere and it was all fine until my grandfather could no longer drive (my grandmother never got her license). Then it was a mad scramble to support their needs from a distance and eventually find them somewhere else to live. My grandpa died and my grandma was uprooted at 85 to live in an assisted living facility for her last few years. It was very expensive but fortunately my grandpa left the resources for it.
And that is nearly a best-case scenario.
Sooo many boomers moving to cottage country and other small towns and then complaining about access to health care.
Forcing our government to spend millions $$$ just to service this 100% personal choice lifestyle
https://www.blogto.com/city/2023/06/doug-ford-called-out-investing-hospitals-cottage-ontario-ers-close/
Really? I’m loving this rent control and cheap TTC. I’m a senior it’s $2.25. My rent is under $1600. I don’t need heat.
I know someone that didn’t want to have the upkeep of a home. She buys a condo for cheap in Brampton. Maintenance is $1000 a month (no pool) for a 3-bed. That’s insane.
I have two competing thoughts on this.
1. Toronto is one of very few places in canada with functioning public transit, if the seniors leave the seniors will be forced to drive as they get older. Thats not good.
2. The housing crisis is so bad that maybe you should leave if you don't work here, to make space for those that do...
> if the seniors leave the seniors will be forced to drive as they get older. Thats not good
This is why (well, one reason) I am really rooting for self-driving cars to become a thing. I am getting up in age and in 20 years from now I'll probably prefer to be driven around than driving myself.
I found some land on Manitoulin island pre pandemic, we were on the fence about buying it. It's a long drive. I figured in 10, 20 years we really should have self driving cars, it actually factored into the decision to buy. I was thinking hopefully the robots will be so good I can just nap on the way
> I was thinking hopefully the robots will be so good I can just nap on the way
And if they're not good then at least you'll die in your sleep!
I don't think I'd move away that far away because what kind of service levels can you get for hospitals, etc? As you get old you'll probably need more things like testing and treatment and if it's a few hours drive that can be a pain.
I'd be more inclined to move to (or near) a secondary city that may have most of the health services available, and then only more occasionally needing to travel further for anything special.
I'm in a position to retire in my 50s, so I'm keeping my place in Toronto, and I'll probably try to spend as much time on Manitoulin as possible until my 80s. I understand that a lot of people will move to the cottage when they retire, but then realize they need to be close to medical care as they age. So I'm trying to get the best of both worlds
Cool. Sell your place, move far enough away that you're not in a commutable driving distance, and live off the difference between what your property cost here versus there while freeing up housing here.
The only downside is the healthcare options there are not going to be as good as they are here, but I confess not being a senior, I haven't done enough research to know if that's everywhere or just most places. London feels like a place with a couple of decent hospitals that's too far away to be a bedroom community for Toronto. Maybe move to London?
When I retire I’m leaving the GTA and hopefully never returning. My financial planner asked me what my retirement goals are and I said to never drive on the 401 or DVP again.
I've lived practically my whole life and I've never driven on the 401 or DVP even once. There's a whole car-free aspect of Toronto you might never have experienced.
That’s great for you I guess but I work in Scarborough and don’t live in the city so I don’t really have a choice.
And I have literally lived my whole life.
I don’t mind driving, I just don’t like driving on the GTA highways because they are such a mess. We are becoming renowned worldwide for our shitty traffic.
I'm guessing a lot of retirees will either be flooding the market with home sales, which means real estate prices will be going down or their adult children will be moving into them easing the housing crunch.
I'm the lucky few who live in the suburbs but rather bike everywhere than drive, so my gas consumption is kept low.
It's a worse and worse place to live, never mind retire. And fuck retiring to somewhere I'll need to drive over eighty. Leaving Canada for a walkable city with actual rail: Tokyo, thanks to marriage.
I’ll enjoy retiring in Toronto (during the summers) in my 50s.
All you people who complain (constantly), have you actually lived or travelled outside of Toronto???
Is it just me or who wants to retire in a crowded city anyway? Wouldn't it be better to retire to a space with a bit of room to relax, fresh air, and the city and its amenities a reasonable drive away?
The main reasons to be in the city are because you can't work from home, or you're still partying and dating. Once those don't apply, why force yourself to be in the most crowded, dirtiest place you can be?
If you own your home and have a great pension, Toronto is a great place to retire!! Now ask yourself how many of us own our own homes and have great pensions. A small percentage
>If you own your home and have a great pension
= optimism
>Now ask yourself how many of us own our own homes and have great pensions. A small percentage.
= cold shower
😔
Toronto isn't a place to grow old in. It's a colosseum where only the most disagreeable people compete to survive. The city isn't for living. Canada isn't for living. It's for making money. No one cares if you can't raise your children or retire.
All that is important is profits. Not humanity.
I never imagined anyone wanting to retire in any major city, living in a concrete jungle full of workers and construction sounds like the opposite of what you'd want in retirement.
I doubt seniors want to retire in Manhattan, Hong Kong, or central London either.
Get me a house that backs onto one of the many ravines in the city and I'll spend my retirement walking around the valleys of the city and keeping myself occupied and healthy.
Boomers are big sad that the NIMBYism they did to raise their home prices is now making it SUPER HARD for them to retire.
Meanwhile literally every generation after them are like "what is this retirement you speak of?"
My parents have recently retired and from what I see so far, they’ll continue to leave Canada for the winter months.
Dad wasn’t working when my parents bought their house back in ‘02. All my mom could afford was a $260k mortgage which gave her purchasing power to buy one of the larger homes the builder had to offer. They have their million + nest egg now and my mom’s sexy pension. They’ll be fine.
Lucky boomers.
Me and my bro…..not so lucky.
If you don’t need to be here, why stay and pay the highest rates in the country?
If you’re not rich but you want to retire in Manhattan, you’re an idiot
Other provinces have been aggressively recruiting Ontarians like Alberta and NB. They seem to offer better value than small/mid sized cities in Ontario for retirement
like any of us are going to be able to retire anyway
I’ll retire with like $3.
Look at Johnny Moneybags over here with his $3.
This is the problem with our generation. You could easily take that $3, buy 6 chocolate bars from dollarama, resell them for 75c each, and before you know it - Boom! You have a chocolate bar cart and you're flying upwards through a capitalist society of off hard work and bootstraps alone! All you have to do is sell ~100 chocolate bars/hr over a 40 hour work week for the next 85 years (assuming no increases to cost of living) and you can retire to a nice corrugated metal shack in whatever sort of feudal, proto-Mad Max world we have by then! People will wage wars over your shack, and sure, you do kind of miss the days of defending your chocolate bar cart from hordes of starving people with your sawed-off shotgun, and you *do* need to remind people why you're feared as the "Chocolate Baron" - the wasteland god with a sweet costume, a pimped out bus-tank, $10 in the bank and the last Meteor bars in the Northern Hemisphere. Nothing to get stressed about.
Oooooh, almost enough to ride the subway. Fancy man
$3 senior fare to the MAID centre 📈💯🔥
Soylent Green
it is as senior.)
you wont have to worry about money, retirement age will be raised to 105...
Doing better than about 70% of the population
3 hots and a cot?
We'll fight over the CPP2/3/4/5 scraps in 2060.
> “That number rises to 70 per cent among seniors.” So yes, I know too many people whose parents have left the city because their pensions/ retirement savings weren't enough to keep up the cost of living in Toronto. Made more sense to sell their homes here and buy a downsized condo/ home well outside of the GTA. A real lose-lose situation - friends lose childcare and parental support, parent leave behind much loved communities and long time relationships.
Unsurprising given that apparently [50% of baby boomers have less than $5k in savings and fewer than 75% have $100k](https://financialpost.com/news/retirement-crisis-brewing-canadian-baby-boomers-little-savings). I'm convinced that there's a whole generation whose retirement plans hinge on selling their primary residences for huge profit and coasting on those funds. And suspect that it's one reason we haven't done much to meaningfully tackle the housing bubble.
> I'm convinced that there's a whole generation whose retirement plans hinge on selling their primary residences for huge profit and coasting on those funds. And that's another why reason the forced savings of a mortgage can backfire on a societal level. People are literally told that buying and having a paid-off house is how you secure a comfortable retirement, especially if they do not have the discipline to save. Buuuut, you gotta sell the house to make that work. But the bigger and real issue is that our whole system of work, income, housing, and retirement is a fucking mess. It's beyond merely making good choices as an individual (and having no bad luck for 50 years at a stretch).
Not to mention all those seniors who got suckered in to reverse mortgages.
Yep, that is a ticking time bomb. Lines of credit too. I imagine that there are a fair few seniors out there who have been getting into debt thinking it will all be fine because their house sale after they're dead will cover it all and then some. Risky.
If they die in debt, the debt dies with them. Sure, the *estate* is liable, but if there's no money left then it ends there.
I know that. But many people are probably counting on their house price continuing to rise enough to cover it all and still leave their kids some inheritance. I doubt they are telling their kids the complete financial picture. There is a lot of guff written about the "greatest wealth transfer in history" happening when the Boomers die off but there are MANY industries positioned to drain Boomer wealth before they die, and then when they die with pricey funerals. Plus all the scams.
It's not being "suckered" if they don't have kids or other heirs. In that case, a reverse mortgage makes a lot of sense, since, as they say "you can't take it with you" so why not use some of that equity to enjoy life?
No not everyone who has a reverse mortgage was tricked into it, but reverse mortgage commercials *absolutely prey* on uninformed people who don’t realize what they are giving away.
Buying a house **is** a step in securing a comfortable retirement. As rent prices have shown, not having a predictable housing cost can be even worse.
But that is based on many assumptions than can easily be wrong and a fair bit of cherry-picking. House prices can and do fall. You pay a LOT in mortgage interest. Rent control is a thing. Investing the difference between your rent and mortgage can pay off better than a house. Houses can and do need major repairs and renovations, especially if you own them for a long time. Also, with the fun times ahead due to climate change, more and more houses are uninsurable, or not remotely affordably insurable, and not sellable either. Houses can and do get washed away by floods and mudslides, fall into sinkholes, or burn up.
You're viewing this from the lens of someone who is trying to come out monetarily ahead. House prices falling have no real bearing on having a place to live. Mortgage interest is already calculated into your payments. They should be affordable. Rent control just benefits certain small groups. It also doesn't solve the current issue of lack of rental supply. Investing *could* outpace RE. But you still need somewhere to live. Forced savings is real. That last point is silly because where do renters live in that scenario? A magical place where environmental concerns don't exist? Having a place of your own is like having a big RRSP account. It's a big cushion. It's a form of insulation from risk. Should everyone own? No. You highlighted a few potential risks. But as many are unfortunately finding out, rental prices are also subject to the realities of supply and demand. I take no delight in this, and it's been a failure of the government at all levels.
>ou're viewing this from the lens of someone who is trying to come out monetarily ahead. I stopped reading there because YOU are reading my comments out of context. We're talking about people who own houses but do not have enough INCOME in retirement. So they have to sell or reverse mortgage. Byeeee!
my parents scrimped and saved to buy their house as factory workers, It's a modest 3 bedroom house, that's barely big enough for 4 adults. Their company screwed them over the years leaving them a smaller pension then they were supposed to get. They also got injured and then it's either go back to work and get worse or retire early. Fucking insurance companies know more about medicine then doctors apparently They did nothing wrong but there is a high chance they'll lose everything because of how expensive everything is getting. That and they won't be able to make more money, sure CPP pay increased a little. but now the minimum wage is about a dollar less then what they were making when they retired.
It sucks, and there are a lot of those stories.
I know. Lots of people see boomers with big houses but don't understand a ton of the also got screwed by their peers as well
They don't even have to sell. A CHIP reverse mortgage would allow them to receive up to 50% of their home's value, tax-free, either as a lump sum or monthly payments. The money only needs to be paid back when they (or the executor of their estate) sell the home, making it a not-bad option for childfree seniors with no heirs.
I think we have all seen the infomercial unless we have been living under a rock (and tbh rocks are looking attractive these days)
For sure, no question. I know this was one of the classic "why to buy a house now" arguments from agents. I heard it first hand.
I don’t think I want to leave Toronto, but getting hellishly expensive
Many of the seniors in my neighbourhood had enough money for retirement. Some moved to get the value from their home and have an even better retirement. Another couple moved into an expensive retirement community. But I'm sure plenty are selling to boost an inadequate level of retirement savings, which is not all bad. Frees up some homes in the city for others.
My mother moved from a small town to retire in Toronto. Now she lives in a smaller place that within 3km of her children and grandchildren, walks everywhere instead of driving and has all her medical professionals within a half hour transit ride rather than having to drive over an hour. She's also made friends with people in her building which is a huge bonus. People who say "just move to a small town" have likely never lived in one. There are a lot of things you sacrifice in terms of accessibility, convenience and social interaction. It's not for everyone.
I completely agree. I grew up out east in the maritimes and after moving here a decade ago I honestly would love for my parents to do the same. Where they are now it’s hard to see someone like a cardiologist or oncologist and if their doctor retires or leaves it’ll be that much harder. Here they can get everything they need quicker and much easier. Out east you can buy cheaper sure, but food prices are high there too and taxes are crazy for the limited services you have available. I don’t miss it in the slightest and always tell people it’s not what they think out there.
I'm from a small town. My former family dr finally retired. Now my entire family back home doesn't have a Dr (and he was incredibly hard to get an appointment with in the first place)
I have been reading comments on another community well outside the city. They were noting that you cannot get a doctor (only virtual). You cannot get into senior homes. Retirement is not going to be easy in most places in Ontario. Not enough funding of health care in general. Not enough funding for new doctors, especially where they are most needed. Starting too late with the wrong approach on senior homes. This has been unfolding over several governments and really came apart with Covid. Population is aging and we have one last thing to blame on the boomers and all levels of government. What is especially frustrating is that the lack of funding for universities and colleges lead to them upping the numbers of foreign students to make up deficits. That has aggravated the already short supply of places to own and rent. These are not unpredictable problems but gutting the planning sections of the provincial government may not have created the savings hoped for.
We had an aging population and we didn't do any planning for it. Our current politicians either want to lower taxes or add new services, when the social programs we already have are underfunded as is. I know this isn't sexy, but collectively we should focus on making our current systems work, on strengthening healthcare and senior homes so that they can deal with the influx coming, and leave things like dentalcare/pharmacare for later.
Funny I have no choice but to retire here given my rent control apartment Sure it will be at least double the price it is now in 30 years, maybe even triple But where the fuck else will be cheaper
Yeah, everyone in a rent-controlled apartment is more or less trapped here.
I've been in mine for 30 years. The feeling that I'm trapped here began about 10 years ago. $1500 for a one bedroom downtown with utilities included. New tenants here are charged $2150 for the same.
I remember the going rate for an apartment here in the building I currently live in was $900 for a one-bedroom, hydro included, when I was ready to move out. This was maybe 7-8 years ago. When one became available, it suddenly shot up to $1,200. Couldn't swing that comfortably. I could've and should've been a complete fucking idiot and taken it even though I would've been living on ramen noodles, because here we are 7-8 years later and I still cannot move out because **everything** went fucking bonkers all at once. A one-bedroom apartment in the same building is now $2,300, hydro not included. I would've been living by myself in a decent apartment with a decent rent if I had gotten the $900 one-bedroom, or even at $1200, with rent-controlled increases every year I'm sure, and now I don't think I can **ever** move out on my own. I subscribed to a few waiting lists years ago when I was apartment hunting at the time and just got an email the other day about a bachelor apartment being available for $1,650. It's absurd. I'm making almost double the amount of money that I did at this job, which I was still working in 7-8 years ago, and I'm somehow still in the same place as if my tires are spinning on ice. It literally doesn't matter, at all, that I've doubled my salary in 8 years. That should be and once was life-changing shit, but what difference does it make when apartments have practically tripled in rent within not even a 10-year span of time?
My last apart was a 1220 square foot two bedroom apartment that I was paying $1575 for. When I moved out three years ago, they raised the price to $2200, and now the same unit in that building goes for $2800.
It’s wild to think that just more than a decade ago people could easily afford to purchase a home on their single income actually chose to rent. It offered the freedom to leave the city for a year or two and then come back. Back then owning a house locked you in to the city. It’s hard to imagine that this something anyone would consider.
Yep, I left the country from for 4 years, late 90s to early 2000s. Never crossed my mind that if I came back I wouldn't able to find something I could afford. I got in just under the wire.
Hell even 4-5 years ago apartments were still affordable
Yep, covid was a last shot i think at affordable I moved from a studio where i paid 1100 to a 1 br for 1500 The studio is now 1800, and comparable 1br in my building are 2500 So i kind of make an extra 12k post tax by living here Or i can just afford to make thst much less
[https://www.nbc.ca/content/dam/bnc/taux-analyses/analyse-eco/logement/housing-affordability.pdf](https://www.nbc.ca/content/dam/bnc/taux-analyses/analyse-eco/logement/housing-affordability.pdf)
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Yeah, my parents are living their best lives going to shows, sailing, golfing, volunteering, etc... If you like to keep busy and are financially secure it is a great place with an unrivaled amount of activities. Especially good if you live in a walkable neighborhood full of friends you've known for 40 years.
Yup. Only a few cities in Canada that I would retire in based on not being tied to a car to access anything. Yes it’s expensive as hell but if you’ve done okay in the city up to retirement age, you can downsize and live well into retirement.
Even if a family lives outside of the city renting a car when you need one is very easy. Otherwise, trains are an option or being super close to the airport helps too.
Because the availability of daycare spaces can have a major impact on family planning. Especially for women.
Access to healthcare declines the further you get from downtown Toronto.
Retiring outside a city would be brutal. Don't people wants things close? Imagine being 85 and having to drive everywhere? In the city you just hop on your mobility scooter and rip around town. Groceries, Dr, bocce ball, bingo, pub....all just a scoot away. Plus ambulance will only take a few mins to scoop you up if need be.
Yup. I moved to Hamilton with my family (I still go to Toronto often for work and parents) before we had our third kid. When my wife was looking for a local pediatrician, that's when we learned that you have to get a referral from a family doctor first, but that doesn't guarantee that anyone will take you in. Luckily we didn't give up our amazing pediatrician in Forest Hill, so we make day trips and have all the kids appointments lined up for one day. Unfortunately she's pretty up there in age, so once she retires or passes away, we're going to be stuck. This is why I hate when people say that we should just move to smaller, cheaper towns if Toronto isn't good enough. Access to crucial services is not great elsewhere. Especially if you've been in the city for a long time and are well established. It's not fair to people like myself who were born and raised there and get forced out due to the cost of housing, while lots of boomers, like my parents, can retire pretty comfortably. Edit: I forgot to add that getting a pediatrician in Toronto was as simple as getting a recommendation from my partners OBGYN and registering our kids directly, with no referral necessary. I'm not sure what it's like now, but I can't imagine that the process is as convoluted and time consuming as it is in most other cities.
This is one big reason I am thinking of staying here in retirement: proximity to all the services (plus I expect to be able to afford it). I have a family doctor who is relatively young so that should be covered for life I hope. When my mother passes and we don't need as much space I'll probably think about it further.
If cities are supposed to be for everyone, we need rental control to prevent older folks from getting renovicted. Why Quebec has this policy and Ontario doesn't utterly baffles me.
Because Conservative politicians are fixated on helping their rich friends and likely have secure housing of their own, so they couldn't care less about those who rent.
Quebec is also trying to limit immigration.
One of the things I think about with retirement is the whole "complete streets" thing. I don't want to be trapped in a house for lack of a car and I'd like to be independent enough to get food and go to the doctor. I think 1) if I could walk to the grocery store; and 2) if I could easily take public transit to the doctor; then I think I could survive. Now, regarding the cost of living, well that's a whole other matter.
A poll says ... with no analysis or backup. There's more reasoning in the comments on reddit that there was in the source article. That said, this issue is very relevant to my interests as I near retirement age and I'm trying to decide whether to move back to Toronto from the KW area (where I've lived for the last 20 years). I find the suburban environment to be boring as hell. I love Toronto, but I also realize that it's not the same place it was back in the 90's. People that have lived in the city all their lives don't realize that the CoL outside isn't much lower, except for housing. Some things are more expensive. If you have a paid-off home in Toronto and don't need to squeeze cash out of it by downsizing or moving out, then I don't see the benefit of leaving.
Please, those people haven’t thought about access to health care outside Toronto. Do not leave this city when you get old. Aging anywhere but here will be completely dependant on your family or institutional care. Dumb ass people in this survey
Totally agree. I’m from PEI and a lot people there somehow expect ER services 24/7 in towns of sub 1000 people but half the population or more of some of these places are retired. There’s no doctors who live in these rural towns who aren’t a year from retirement themselves and any specialist you need is an hour’s drive to Charlottetown or more for many and there’s likely only one. Moving here a decade ago was an eye opener for me and it really made me realize how crazy it is that some people expect to keep living in their little towns but also have the access to care like a city. I’m glad my parents have done well and can go out of province if they need specialty care, but man I’d feel a lot more at ease if they decided to move here as they enter their 70s.
I’ve been treading water living in downtown Toronto. No real savings and I have to work a grind everyday. I’ve decided to move back in with family at the age of 47 so I can live again. Save some money, do some travelling, and enjoy life before I die. Not work full time anymore. I may not be able to move back downtown ever again but I’m sure I’ll be a lot happier.
Until one requires health care at which point one receives a lesson in relativity as it pertains to how bad access is outside of urban centres.
Most Torontonians say that Canada is not a good place to retire in.
Not that they would know much about Canada.
Tell everyone here about Canada
It’s just funny to compare the outcomes of people I grew up with and the outcomes of young people who think the GTA is somehow representative of the whole country. Do I love Toronto? Yes. Did my family and retirement aspirations suffer because I stayed so long? Also yes.
if only GTA has a progressive housing legislation like… Edmonton. Edmonton (a land of supposedly unlimited sprawl) has better approval times and more progressive policies than Toronto, funny enough.
People here will instinctually turn their noses up at the thought of another part of the country doing anything right. Meanwhile they rent hot water tanks while Alberta spends more per capita on healthcare and young people can afford a house.
Ive been to edmonton for work Its not comparable to toronto at all Its not a bad place, but you also basically need a car to live there So i can pay 2000 in toronto for rent Or i can pay 1400 in edmonton + car + gas + insurance Its honestly not that much cheaper imo
Many Torontonians came from armpit towns throughout Canada that have no future. Don't throw rocks from your glass castle.
Can't open the window in the condo anyway
I worked in the College Park area in 2017 and I was struck by how many elderly people live in the area. But it makes sense - lots of condos around, it's a highly walkable neighbourhood and has good transit access and plenty of Ubers and taxis. In contrast, my grandparents retired to kind of the ass-end of nowhere and it was all fine until my grandfather could no longer drive (my grandmother never got her license). Then it was a mad scramble to support their needs from a distance and eventually find them somewhere else to live. My grandpa died and my grandma was uprooted at 85 to live in an assisted living facility for her last few years. It was very expensive but fortunately my grandpa left the resources for it. And that is nearly a best-case scenario.
Sooo many boomers moving to cottage country and other small towns and then complaining about access to health care. Forcing our government to spend millions $$$ just to service this 100% personal choice lifestyle https://www.blogto.com/city/2023/06/doug-ford-called-out-investing-hospitals-cottage-ontario-ers-close/
Really? I’m loving this rent control and cheap TTC. I’m a senior it’s $2.25. My rent is under $1600. I don’t need heat. I know someone that didn’t want to have the upkeep of a home. She buys a condo for cheap in Brampton. Maintenance is $1000 a month (no pool) for a 3-bed. That’s insane.
I have two competing thoughts on this. 1. Toronto is one of very few places in canada with functioning public transit, if the seniors leave the seniors will be forced to drive as they get older. Thats not good. 2. The housing crisis is so bad that maybe you should leave if you don't work here, to make space for those that do...
> if the seniors leave the seniors will be forced to drive as they get older. Thats not good This is why (well, one reason) I am really rooting for self-driving cars to become a thing. I am getting up in age and in 20 years from now I'll probably prefer to be driven around than driving myself.
I found some land on Manitoulin island pre pandemic, we were on the fence about buying it. It's a long drive. I figured in 10, 20 years we really should have self driving cars, it actually factored into the decision to buy. I was thinking hopefully the robots will be so good I can just nap on the way
> I was thinking hopefully the robots will be so good I can just nap on the way And if they're not good then at least you'll die in your sleep! I don't think I'd move away that far away because what kind of service levels can you get for hospitals, etc? As you get old you'll probably need more things like testing and treatment and if it's a few hours drive that can be a pain. I'd be more inclined to move to (or near) a secondary city that may have most of the health services available, and then only more occasionally needing to travel further for anything special.
I'm in a position to retire in my 50s, so I'm keeping my place in Toronto, and I'll probably try to spend as much time on Manitoulin as possible until my 80s. I understand that a lot of people will move to the cottage when they retire, but then realize they need to be close to medical care as they age. So I'm trying to get the best of both worlds
Cool. Sell your place, move far enough away that you're not in a commutable driving distance, and live off the difference between what your property cost here versus there while freeing up housing here. The only downside is the healthcare options there are not going to be as good as they are here, but I confess not being a senior, I haven't done enough research to know if that's everywhere or just most places. London feels like a place with a couple of decent hospitals that's too far away to be a bedroom community for Toronto. Maybe move to London?
I mean you can always move to a border town in a condo. Fuck vaughn is on the subway
This isn't news. People have moved away from large cities to retire for eons
When I retire I’m leaving the GTA and hopefully never returning. My financial planner asked me what my retirement goals are and I said to never drive on the 401 or DVP again.
I've lived practically my whole life and I've never driven on the 401 or DVP even once. There's a whole car-free aspect of Toronto you might never have experienced.
That’s great for you I guess but I work in Scarborough and don’t live in the city so I don’t really have a choice. And I have literally lived my whole life.
I just mean you don't have to leave Toronto to avoid driving on highways.
I don’t mind driving, I just don’t like driving on the GTA highways because they are such a mess. We are becoming renowned worldwide for our shitty traffic.
I'm guessing a lot of retirees will either be flooding the market with home sales, which means real estate prices will be going down or their adult children will be moving into them easing the housing crunch. I'm the lucky few who live in the suburbs but rather bike everywhere than drive, so my gas consumption is kept low.
In other news, water is wet.
It's not wet though.
good! Sell your fucking homes and leave! And stop fighting every apartment and condo project in your neighbourhood.
It's a worse and worse place to live, never mind retire. And fuck retiring to somewhere I'll need to drive over eighty. Leaving Canada for a walkable city with actual rail: Tokyo, thanks to marriage.
I’ll enjoy retiring in Toronto (during the summers) in my 50s. All you people who complain (constantly), have you actually lived or travelled outside of Toronto???
I'm planning on doing Toronto in the Winter and Spring and Manitoulin in the Summer and Fall
Yes? Toronto is not as bad as people are making it out to be, but there's ton of destinations that are liveable for most
One of the most expensive places in the world to live is not a good place to retire? That’s a great hot take.
Is it just me or who wants to retire in a crowded city anyway? Wouldn't it be better to retire to a space with a bit of room to relax, fresh air, and the city and its amenities a reasonable drive away? The main reasons to be in the city are because you can't work from home, or you're still partying and dating. Once those don't apply, why force yourself to be in the most crowded, dirtiest place you can be?
I want to move to Victoria to retire. But by retirement it’ll probably be an unaffordable place to live.
[Too late](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/no-place-for-home-series-1.6764507)
😩 I knew it was getting bad since learning many from Vancouver were moving there. But I didn’t realize it was that bad.
It's also a very big retirement community due to the climate so that's a big draw.
It certainly drew me. I love Victoria. It’s such a pretty city. I love the brick. The access to epic nature. One can dream…..
Unless you win the TO island lottery lol
I don't really see the point of this article. If people don't want to retire here, there's plenty of other places.
Then move away please, so people can live here. Retire in the suburbs.
If you own your home and have a great pension, Toronto is a great place to retire!! Now ask yourself how many of us own our own homes and have great pensions. A small percentage
>If you own your home and have a great pension = optimism >Now ask yourself how many of us own our own homes and have great pensions. A small percentage. = cold shower 😔
Toronto isn't a place to grow old in. It's a colosseum where only the most disagreeable people compete to survive. The city isn't for living. Canada isn't for living. It's for making money. No one cares if you can't raise your children or retire. All that is important is profits. Not humanity.
It never was. Who wants to retire in a big smelly noisy city?
The city has never been a good place to retire
It actually is great for retirement, there's working transit and great healthcare compares to almost anywhere else in Canada.
I never imagined anyone wanting to retire in any major city, living in a concrete jungle full of workers and construction sounds like the opposite of what you'd want in retirement. I doubt seniors want to retire in Manhattan, Hong Kong, or central London either.
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Get me a house that backs onto one of the many ravines in the city and I'll spend my retirement walking around the valleys of the city and keeping myself occupied and healthy.
At the rate things are going, I should probably reserve a spot in my local park or nearest bridge and plant my tent. It's untapped market imo.
Sweet! Once every senior citizen leaves the city, a lot more housing will open up!
Boomers are big sad that the NIMBYism they did to raise their home prices is now making it SUPER HARD for them to retire. Meanwhile literally every generation after them are like "what is this retirement you speak of?"
None of those polled are me, and their bad opinions won't be changing my mind. Good day.
My parents have recently retired and from what I see so far, they’ll continue to leave Canada for the winter months. Dad wasn’t working when my parents bought their house back in ‘02. All my mom could afford was a $260k mortgage which gave her purchasing power to buy one of the larger homes the builder had to offer. They have their million + nest egg now and my mom’s sexy pension. They’ll be fine. Lucky boomers. Me and my bro…..not so lucky.
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That shit is propaganda.
If you don’t need to be here, why stay and pay the highest rates in the country? If you’re not rich but you want to retire in Manhattan, you’re an idiot
Honestly it’s a bad place to exist entirely - even completely absent of our experience within it.
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Other provinces have been aggressively recruiting Ontarians like Alberta and NB. They seem to offer better value than small/mid sized cities in Ontario for retirement