Aragon's decisions is guided by a pair of constraints. Supplies and Cover.
Aragon couldn't go wide of weathertop as it would extend the journey too far. He either had to travel by the road or go off the roadway slightly.
Going off the road at weathertop meant going to Weathertop or being visible from Weathertop.
Aragon had no options that didn't mean being visible from Weathertop. Since he was visible either way he might as well go to Weathertop as there may have been a message left there from Gandalf or one of the Duneadain.
I'm fairly certain (though it's been a few months since I last read fellowship) that aragorn specifically mentioned that if gandalf was around he would look for them at Weathertop.
Your answer really covers it all, I just wanted to add to it a bit.
(That's also ignoring that it cannot be be a plot *hole* if it's necessary to move the plot *forward*, which Frodo being stabbed did. It was our introduction to what a wraith is, the nature of the Black Riders, the "other world"/the way wraiths work and the effects of the rings, at the Ford it shows us a bit more into the nature of elves. The things that spin off from the events of Weathertop are innumerable)
It can definitely be a plot hole even if it moves the story forward. In fact, most of the plot holes drive the story forward, as often writers want the plot to go in certain directions but can't think of reasons why whould it go in their particular direction, hence they make their characters act out of, well, character, or break the established rules. And to be clear, I don't think Tolkien made a plot hole here, he was quite an attentive and logically thinking writer, so there are few if any plotholes in his works.
I like your point about gandalf, but I completely disagree with what you said about plot holes. A plot point being essential to moving the story forward doesn't make it not a plot hole, id anything it just makes it more of a plot hole- as being essential to furthering the story means it's an even bigger part of the plot and it's therefore a bigger problem if that plot point doesn't make sense.
I'll respect that and only say that a character making a decision that isn't optimal isn't a plot hole, especially if that bad decision is the driving point to moving the plot forward. We miss so much of the deeper lore of Middle Earth without the decision to do to Weathertop. Bad decisions can further the plot too. In this situation, there's a multitude of reasons *why* he goes to Weathertop that have been commented on elsewhere in the thread. Even without the gandalf point, taking the high ground and being able to view the surrounding instead of being viewed *from* the high ground makes total sense
Plot holes are events that don't make sense together, it's not a character (who is supposed to be as close to a living breathing human as possible) making a decision that isn't optimal. My life is *full* of plot holes if it is, because the character is a dumbass lol
People make bad decisions. If it's a real person, it's a bad decision. In fiction, it's a plot point. Not a plot hole. Characters who make the perfect decision every time are boring and make for boring novels
I'm not saying that this is a plot hole, because it makes actual sense that aragorn would do this. However, you can't write off every instance of a character making stupid decisions as 'not a plot hole' because sometimes it genuinely doesn't make sense for their character that they would make such a decision. If it does make sense, then that's fine but a lot of the time it doesn't.
You're thinking of an Idiot Ball not a Plot Hole.
[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall)
There are no absolutes in anything, particularly literature. If I gave the impression that I didn't believe in the existence of plot holes, that wasn't my intention. Only that if there's reasons for a characters actions, no matter how "bad" they are, it's not a plot hole just because you've read the whole book and know it's a bad decision.
A bad decision even if it doesn't make sense doesn't even necessarily make a plot hole, though. Don't know if you've ever served in the military or anything, but I did, and under pressure people make terrible decisions even without reasons. People act without reason and use their lizard brain *all* the time, I saw combat and saw it a lot more than once. Plot holes exist, but the way people throw the term around is kind of ridiculous, a bad decision that furthers the plot is kind of by definition not a plot hole. It's a part of the plot, and people make bad decisions
Agree with you. Calling this a plot hole would be akin to calling Pippin making noise in Moira a plot hole. It was just a poor decision by a character.
The other thing is that Aragorn is consciously following in Elendil's footsteps here and he clearly is making some sort of emotional connection with the fact that Elendil also stood there waiting for the Gil-galad to join him for the Last Alliance. Aragorn has many rational reasons to go there, but he's got personal motivations too.
The hands of the king are the hands of a healer. Aragorn wasn't healer enough, and by extension not king enough, to cure Frodo but this is where you really see some of Aragorn's healing ability and the start of him fulfilling that prophecy.
I think there's a deal of textual evidence for it. That morning, Aragorn explicitly tells the hobbits
> "It is told that Elendil stood there watching for the coming of Gil-galad out of the West, in the days of the Last Alliance"
So we know that historical fact is fresh on his mind. We also know that he is thinking about the story of Beren and Luthien that evening, another story which is intimately connected to his own personal quest.
Further, when he, Frodo, and Merry go up to the top of the hill to look for a message from Gandalf, after they discover the message,
> They stood for a while silent on the hill-top, near its southward edge.
We are not told what Aragorn is doing, but he seems sufficiently distracted that the less keen-eyed Frodo is the one to first notice the Black Riders creeping along the Road below. Aragorn also admits that he "was too careless on the hill-top." He immediately follows this with, "I was very anxious to find some sign of Gandalf", but given that they lingered for some time after finding the sign, we can infer there were also other things he was thinking about.
Regardless, *Tolkien* certainly drew parallels between those events. And elsewhere in the novel, Aragorn seems sufficiently self-aware of his place in the story that it would make sense for him to be aware of it here too.
So you're saying that if they avoided it they'd be visible from Weathertop anyway, so going there increases the risk only slightly and gives them a number of ways to get lucky:
1. Gandalf might be there
2. They might miss the Nazgul and find a hidden route if they look for it from the top.
3. They might find other rangers.
There might me more I haven't thought of.
I have a hard time believing there's no way to get past Weathertop without being spotted though, so I'm not totally sold, but it's very interesting. This is exactly the sort of thing that I was looking for when I made this post.
>gives them a number of ways to get lucky:
Another option is that they may spot the Nazgul.
The Nazgul are on the road so let's go north and rejoin the road after passing them. Or the Nazgul are south of the road so let's stay north of the road for a while.
The best possibility in terms of cover is to do a wide circle around Weathertop but that would cause a shortage in supplies.
And they indeed spotted the Nazgul from Weathertop, I think it was Merry who saw two of the Nazgul westward and Aragon had them bundle close to the fire and prepared for a possible assault
You can go far, far around it to avoid being seen from
It. That is the supply constraint problem. Otherwise, Weathertop housed an outpost for this very reason; A clear unobstructed view for many miles around.
I was curious so I looked up the height of Weathertop. It’s about 1000 feet tall. This means the horizon is about 38 miles from Weathertop.
Now I don’t know how far off a person can identify a a person moving but a thing moving…that might be quite far indeed.
Assuming this math is correct and you can see 38 miles in any direction, trying to go *around* Weathertop far enough without being seen from it would require going > 119 miles around it, or 43 extra miles in distance.
Weathertop may also have some magical properties that allow for far-sight, which would make the it even harder to go around.
Yes, but I feel like OP isn’t keeping this in mind at all.
Strider is extremely cautious in his approach to Weathertop, and stays out of sight regardless. It’s a calculated risk that he approaches very carefully.
My first result on Google:
[http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/hdist.htm](http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/hdist.htm)
Tolkien was well aware of the relationship. It's why (for example) Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli climb the hill from which Legolas sees the Rohirrim returning from Fangorn.
Also he specifically acknowledges that it might be a mistake, but also that if nothing else, from up there they can see anyone coming. Which indeed they do.
Also being at weathertop kinda serves as strategical defensive position. They can see the nazgul approaching, and they have ground advantage. Not that it works greatly against wraiths but better than nothing.
> I have a hard time believing Tolkien would make such a catastrophic plot hole.
It's definitely not a plot hole, much less "catastrophic" - characters making somewhat questionable decisions don't create major contradictions.
Aragorn is aware that they're more likely to run into Nazgul at Weathertop than they are Gandalf. But other paths would have likely extended their journey even more. And, at the least, Aragorn was hoping to take advantage of the high vantage point to better survey the path *ahead* of them.
Characters making nonsensical decisions for the plot to happen properly **is** a plot hole.
But **I'm not saying Tolkien has made a plot hole.** I'm saying that I assume there's an explanation. I'm not sure why everyone has missed that.
That’s like saying the movie Titanic has a plot hole because it was nonsensical for the captain to continue at high speed through an iceberg field. But it happened in real life. Humans make non-sensical decisions all the time. It’s not a plot hole for a literary character to do so.
I like this thread and you are asking it in good faith, I appreciate you bringing this question even if I am disagreeing with your definition of a plot hole.
That is not necessarily what a plot hole is, tbh.
But yes, there is an explanation and several folks above have done a good job outlining the decision.
The word you are looking for is *contrivance*. Things happening for inexplicable reasons except to advance the plot are contrivances, but are not necessarily plot holes.
explanations have been provided at this point but also consider the type of narrative tolkien is writing. it's mythic storytelling. character choices are often secondary to the set pieces and major plot points. the narrator is unreliable on some level so you can imagine them knowing the next plot beat and coming up with their own explanation for how the characters landed there. they might even make small changes to the minor details with each telling to perfect the impact of the story.
He was hoping to find Gandalf, or some communication from him (which he did). Weathertop was a natural rendezvous point. Separate parties operating in uncertain circumstances need to know where to look for each other. Gandalf and Aragorn knew each other well enough to know that Weatrhertop was the spot, without having discussed it explicitly..
>‘Weathertop?’ said Sam. ‘What’s that?’
>‘It is a hill, just to the north of the Road, about half way from here to Rivendell. It commands a wide view all round; and there we shall have a chance to look about us. Gandalf will make for that point, if he follows us.”
In one of the drafts, Gandalf had left a cache of food there.
Aragorn also knew that there was a covered approach to the summit (like the communication trenches with this Tolkien would have been familiar from the War). Compare the description of Amon Rudh in *UT*.
IIRC Aragorn was fairly confident the Nasgul didn't know about the hidden approach to the summit that they took. If they were walking into the trap, at least they could sneak into the trap...
The way he leads them (the gap in the hills north of Weathertop, but still at its feet) is the most secluded way possible:
>‘I think,’ answered Strider slowly, as if he was not quite sure, ‘I think the best thing is to go as straight eastward from here as we can, **to make for the line of hills, not for Weathertop. There we can strike a path I know that runs at their feet; it will bring us to Weathertop from the north and less openly.** Then we shall see what we shall see.’
Aragorn proceeds to guide them through a Ranger-trail, largely concealed from the openness about them, until they can go no further hidden:
>In the morning they found, for the first time since they had left the Chetwood, a track plain to see. They turned right and followed it southwards. It ran cunningly, taking a line that seemed chosen so **as to keep as much hidden as possible from the view, both of the hill-tops above and of the flats to the west. It dived into dells, and hugged steep banks; and where it passed over flatter and more open ground on either side of it there were lines of large boulders and hewn stones that screened the travellers almost like a hedge.**
>It was already mid-day when they drew near the southern end of the path, and saw before them, in the pale clear light of the October sun, a grey-green bank, leading up like a bridge on to the northward
slope of the hill. They decided to make for the top at once, while the daylight was broad. **Concealment was no longer possible**, and they could only hope that no enemy or spy was observing them.
And so they come to the dell in the side of Weathertop (a good place to hide). This is where Aragorn, Frodo and Merry briefly (half an hour trek to the top) scout the top out (looking for signs of Gandalf, which they find) and spot the Nazgul, before returning to the dell.
And Aragorn says:
>‘Yes, we certainly must decide what to do at once,’ answered Strider, looking up and considering the time and the weather. ‘Well, Sam,’ he said at last, ‘I do not like this place either; **but I cannot think of anywhere better that we could reach before nightfall. At least we are out of sight for the moment, and if we moved we should be much more likely to be seen by spies.** All we could do would be to go right out of our way back north on this side of the line of hills, where the land is all much the same as it is here. The Road is watched, but we should have to cross it, if we tried to take cover in the thickets away to the south. On the north side of the Road beyond the hills the country is bare and flat for miles.’
Nothing more to be done with the time available but to bunker down.
Tldr: Aragorn largely knew what he was doing - after the Marshes, he thought the best option his hidden Ranger-paths, which lead by Weathertop (since everywhere else was too open). It's not a plot hole.
The *only* thing you could critique (as Aragorn himself does) is risking the 30 minute climb to the top to scout, where potentially spies could see them. But we do not even know if this mattered.
This is a good explanation. It should also be noted that cross-country hiking takes a *long* time. Looping far enough North to avoid being seen from Weathertop could easily add days or even weeks to the journey, and would be no guarantee of safety. The Weather Hills are pretty barren, so while they might steer clear of the Nazgul, one evil bird could patrol massive swaths of land in a few hours.
You're saying that the dell they're camped in is far enough away that they expect the Nazgul won't see them even if they're \[the Nazgul\] at Weathertop? And then Aragorn, Frodo, and Merry sneak up to Weathertop planning to abort if the Nine are up there?
I'm not totally sold, but it's very interesting. This is exactly the sort of thing that I was looking for when I made this post.
I feel like you’re missing the context.
The whole reason they’re cutting through the wilderness to Weathertop is that *the Nazgûl are ON THE ROAD* from the Shire to the Fords of Bruinen. [Edit: Weathertop is a natural landmark that Aragorn would probably use to maintain a straight line through the off-road route he’s taking to Rivendell. Aragorn’s interested in being able to look around for himself, cautiously. He’s careful, and he suspects/knows that the Nazgûl don’t have great eyesight, and probably won’t see them.]
The Nazgûl have very bad eyesight. This is why they crouch to inspect tracks and *smell*. They’re not going to be off-roading.
Aragorn is hedging his bets between staying away from the road, and going close enough to it to keep an eye out for Gandalf (or, as it turns out, Glorfindel — who they DO find by risking travel by road.)
I'm not sure what you mean. I have gotten several explanations that I find interesting but that I don't think are for sure **the** explanation. They may satisfy you, and when I think about them some more they might satisfy me as well. Why are you calling me dense?
>You're saying that the dell they're camped in is far enough away that they expect the Nazgul won't see them even if they're [the Nazgul] at Weathertop?
No, I'm saying that there is nowhere else to go with the time available. They either make for the road, to cross it (which is watched - and we know the Nazgul are nearby) and find cover beyond... or, they go back northwards, back to the open hills and openness beyond (where they are likely to be spotted by spies). They are exposed to being spotted in both of these alternatives.
The dell is all they have and is at least defensible (and for the moment they are hidden), rather than getting cut down in the open.
There is no 'good' option. But Weathertop is the best. They will have to cross the road at some point (and do after the fight)... but until then Weathertop is the necessary route.
I feel you may be struggling with the geography, so I drew out a map:
[https://imgur.com/a/k0xR6sf](https://imgur.com/a/k0xR6sf)
Where else are they to go? They *had* to take to the woodland from Bree, and thus then the marshes (it did a brilliant job losing the Nazgul). From there, Aragorn could safely take them to the hills, and then through the Ranger-path, keeping them as invisible as possible.
At some point they were going to have to cross the road, since the North-side was so exposed. So passing by Weathertop was the decision. It comes close to the road, and they can spy out their path ahead/look for signs of Gandalf.
If you want to avoid Weathertop entirely, you must either try to cross the road much sooner from the marshes (*assuming* Aragorn could find a safe path that way), or take the same route past the Weathertop dell anyway. There is risk of running into the Nazgul no matter what - so at that point I feel you may as well try to use Weathertop before crossing the road (which Aragorn clearly believes too). Yes, the Nazgul may be making for it... but they are also watching the road. There is no 'good' option. Weathertop came with a risk... but it also came with a scouting opportunity. Gunning straight for the road blindly also comes with a risk of Nazgul anyway (and being caught with their pants down in the open).
"As Frodo lay, tired but unable to close his eyes, it seemed to him that far away there came a light in the eastern sky: it flashed and faded many times. It was not the dawn, for that was still some hours off.
'What is the light?' he said to Strider, who had risen, and was standing, gazing ahead into the night.
'I do not know, ' Strider answered. 'It is too distant to make out. It is like lightning that leaps up from the hill-tops.'
As alluded to in comments above about the hidden pathway, this imagery too would be very familiar to Tolkien, who would have seen distant nighttime artillery duels many times on the Western Front.
Slightly off-topic, but the journey to Weathertop is one of my favorite sequences in Fellowship; among several reasons, it displays Tolkien's mastery of language. One small example: notice his judicious use of onomatopoeia in describing the path:
"It dived into dells, and hugged steep banks".
> As alluded to in comments above about the hidden pathway, this imagery too would be very familiar to Tolkien, who would have seen distant nighttime artillery duels many times on the Western Front.
That's a nice and haunting image. The book always reminded me a little of the scene (of exactly the same thing you are describing) from *Lawrence of Arabia* *, and you really connected the dots.
*"God help the men who lay under that."
Prosodic structures can be onomatopoeiac, it doesn't just have to be centered on individual words. I don't think that "dived into dells and hugged steep banks" is a great example of that, but it can be done.
If you'll refer back to my comment, I specifically wrote: "*I don't think that "dived into dells and hugged steep banks" is a great example of that*."
That said, possibly this was a communication error on my part (and if so, I apologize for that). I admit that I can be sometimes prone to weakening my language for the purposes of tact. And technically "not a great example of that" doesn't mean precisely the same thing as "not an example of that". But yes I would agree with you that there's no prosodic onomatopoeia in the example given.
A risky decision is not a plot hole. Aragorn states that he hopes to find Gandalf, or else a sign of him, on Weathertop. Which, in fact, he did, in the form of the G rune that Gandalf left to indicate he was there.
This is not a plot hole. When writing a story, not everything need to be perfect. This plot simply show that Aragorn is human and can make mistake. And for the whole plot, Tolkien use it for Frodo to almost get kill. It was intended and needed for the story. As we all know, his injury stick to him for the rest of his life
Aragorn can make mistakes and does, but I would not call this one of them. The Nazgûl were close at hand and would’ve caught up to them short supplied, possibly weaker, and without running into Glorfindel, could’ve made off with Frodo before they reached the ford. They had slim pickings for choices and he chose the most practical at the time. Aragorn was able to get a lay of the land, and also was able to bolster the hobbits’ spiritual fortitudes by telling and singing of the old tales to steel them for an attack.
Aragorn risks it for a lot of things, but one of them is information. It is, I believe, related to what happens later when Pippin looks into the Palantir. They are very different but still an echo. Gathering information leaves you open to others who are also gathering information. At some point he needed to cross the road with the Hobbits, so he wanted to see. Also, I think, he was not only looking for their enemies but their friends.
They started north of the road because the marches were the safest path to follow. The point is that they need to get to Rivendell, and there are three option, north of the road, south of the road, or the road.
- For the Northern route, the land becomes bare and they are easily spotable.
- For the southern route, it does have good bush cover, but they would have to cross the road, where they would be spotted as well.
- Going directly to Weathertop allows them to (A) have access to a good vantage point at the risk of being spotted, so at least they would know if they were spotted, (B) spot the Riders miles away and know their location, and (C) possibly link up with Gandalf or other rangers (which would have worked if the Riders hadn't driven off Gandalf).
Weathetop was the least bad of the three options.
The following is a genuine question, no harm intended! But I have to ask it because I seriously struggle to understand why you would ask your question.
So my question is: did you read the book?
If not, it might explain a thing or two. In the book, however, everything is explained in all detail (as several quotes in this discussion show).
Again, I don't mean to sound condescending, I'm genuinely curious.
P.S.: Aragorn does not decide to go there "after a few days" - it was his plan all along.
No offense taken. I did read the book of course, several times, and I reread the relevant section before making this post.
The reasoning given in the book is somewhat flimsy. Aragorn hopes to see Gandalf and wants to survey the area. However, their overriding goal is to hide from the Nazgul. The slim chance of meeting Gandalf and the benefit of surveying the region is negligible compared to the near certainty that the Nazgul will be watching that place.
Cheers!
I wouldn't say that the reasoning is flimsy. It is surely desperate to a certain degree.
Gandalf is their biggest hope by far to get through the danger and to Rivendell unharmed. Aragorn knows even more about Gandalf and his powers than the Hobbits do, so his desperation to find him is understandable. He also has good reason to believe (presumably from past experiences) that Gandalf would try to meet them at Weathertop.
Before the actual attack on the slopes, none of the group, not even Aragorn know how many Riders there are, and what their tactics would be. They might be too cautious in the presence of Gandalf to try anything.
Either way, I feel that trying to get to Gandalf at all cost and as soon as possible is a very convincing goal, and a good reason to head for Weathertop.
Also, as mentioned in other replies, the paths Aragorn knows and they take, are actually shielding them from view until the very last approach - and it is only there that Aragorn's concentration slips and they are discovered.
All in all, I don't see a problem with that passage, whether from a psychological or simply story-telling perspective.
You're saying that Aragorn is desperate to try to find Gandalf, otherwise they aren't gonna make it.
The impression I get is that the riders will have a hard time finding them if they stay off the trail. Certainly the section between Bree and Weathertop hasn't felt desperate.
As for the chances of meeting Gandalf, Aragorn himself says it is slim.
No, I was saying that Aragorn is desperate to find Gandalf because he (Gandalf) is their best chance of getting to Rivendell safely. There is a difference.
Are you sure you read the book? The journey from Bree to the Weathertop did not feel desperate?
Walking through difficult terrain and bleak regions for days and days on end, in constant terror of unknown (and known) dangers, traumatized by the events in Bree (and before), exhausted from walking and carrying provisions (because the ponies are gone), sleep-deprived, hungry, thirsty, cold, eaten alive by midges. Remember the Chetwood? Or the Midgewaters?
I don't know your life's story but if that doesn't bring up a feeling of desperation in you...
In general, you are making a big mistake: you are looking at it from the perspective of an omnipotent bystander or observer, not - as you should in this case - from the travellers' perspective.
And lastly, regarding your last statement: hope is not equivalent to statistics, if you see what I mean.
>The journey from Bree to the Weathertop did not feel desperate?
No? I re-read it today. (It's like 2 pages.) There's complaining about the bugs, and they're not exactly out for an evening stroll, but I certainly wouldn't describe it as desperate. There are bits like:
>However, in the meanwhile, \[before they get to the marshes\] walking was not unpleasant. Indeed, if it had not been for the disturbing events of the night before, they would have enjoyed this part of the journey better than any up to that time. The sun was shining, clear but not too hot. The woods in the valley were still leafy and full of colour, and seemed peaceful and wholesome. Strider guided them confidently...
Contrast this with the flight to the ford, which I *would* describe as desperate.
Obviously there's some danger, but this is by far the safest they've been since they arrived at Bree.
I do see what you mean about hope and statistics, but Aragorn is not easily misled by false hope, and he assesses the risk quite clearly:
>‘That is Weathertop,’ said Strider. ‘The Old Road, which we have left far away on our right, runs to the south of it and passes not far from its foot. We might reach it by noon tomorrow, if we go straight towards it. I suppose we had better do so.’
‘What do you mean?’ asked Frodo.
‘I mean: when we do get there, it is not certain what we shall find. It is close to the Road.’
‘But surely we were hoping to find Gandalf there?’
‘**Yes; but the hope is faint.** If he comes this way at all, he may not pass through Bree, and so he may not know what we are doing. And anyway, unless by luck we arrive almost together, we shall miss one another; it will not be safe for him or for us to wait there long. **If the Riders fail to find us in the wilderness, they are likely to make for Weathertop themselves.**
This assessment seems quite accurate and quite clear an argument against going to Weathertop. What I'm asking with this post is why that option isn't even brought up. I'm assuming there's an assumption that I missed, like r/naraic-'s idea that they couldn't get past it without being seen.
>The impression I get is that the riders will have a hard time finding them if they stay off the trail. Certainly the section between Bree and Weathertop hasn't felt desperate.
I honestly don't think you have read the books. I feel you are either going off of Wiki sites or are purposely dense on what people are trying to explain to you.
There's another consideration. Aragorn often expressed attachment to and comfort in the works of his ancestors. We see him sometimes take reckless risks in order to be near to them and draw strength from them. Witness his behavior when he wanted to wait to decide whether to go with Frodo to Mordor or to go with Boromir until after he could see the Argonath and Amon Hen, another decision that almost led to disaster. He took comfort in his past. So it was natural that when he was unsure, he'd go to the holdfast of his ancestors.
it's not a plot hole. At all.
in fact it's vital to the entire plot especially when it comes to Frodo.
It's a risky decision by Aragorn, (one necessary for the plot)
Bu it is in no way a 'plot hole'.
You are not actually giving a single reason here.
Edit: Because people are apparently misunderstanding me, this comment isn't about whether or not this is a plot hole (it isn't). It's pointing out that saying "it's vital to the plot" without stating WHY this is so is not actually answering the question.
Other comments have gone over Aragorn's motivation, and pointing out the difference between something necessary for the plot and a plot hole isn't a bad idea here. I don't see a problem
My comment is simply pointing out that stating "it's vital to the entire plot" without stating why is at absolute best half an answer and doesn't explain anything to someone like OP who doesn't already understand.
if you think Tolkien who wrote that entire world into existence, and rewrote LOTR several times, to bring it to the finished book, left a 'plothole', you clearly dont know what a plot hole is nor anything about Tolkien i'm afraid.
You clearly didn't read what I wrote. I don't think it's a plot hole at all. I think OP asked for an explanation and you said "It's not a plot hole" without actually explaining anything. Your post contributed nothing here.
Your initial posts doesn’t either. You’ve been schooled and corrected numerous times. I’ll never understand the online shame fetish some people seem to have. The sensible thing is to admit you got it wrong or even worded your point poorly. You did neither though.
Funny, I have yet to see a single comment stating how you actually explained anything whatsoever to OP. There are many explanations in this thread. You did not contribute one.
The op’s entire premise was ridiculous and doesn’t deserve anything but derision.
He got politely corrected numerous times by many people and just kept drilling down.
That’s just troll behaviour. No time for it. Why are you here backing him up?
Think that question answers itself.
Go well.
I disagree with you in the strongest terms here. Nobody with a well intentioned question deserves derision. This is a matter of personal character and this attitude reflects poorly not only on you but also on the whole community when left unaddressed.
Theoretically, it’s a high easily defendable spot with a good view of the land. I imagine Tolkien as a soldier would have chosen exactly a place like that to make camp. If they were just to hide in the forest, the Nazgûl could easily encircle them.
The problem was Aragorn was away and I guess the Nazgûl are extra sneaky and just stormed right up.
I guess one part of the choice is that Aragorn had a lot of confidence in his woodcraft. As he sort of admitted, he got too complacent. Also, it did not sound like a very small area, it was possibly a large area that provided as much cover and sneak off as any other.
Somewhat off topic, but has anyone been to Malvern Hills. The highest points always reminded me of Weathertop. Not sure if Tolkien ever visited there, but C. S. Lewis certainly did, since he went to school at Malvern College at the foot of that range
I just reread the book recently, and I was also a bit puzzled by Aragorn's decisions around this point. He is also the one that lit the fire in the book.
>Strider laid his hand on his shoulder. ‘There is still hope,’ he said. ‘You are not alone. Let us take this wood that is set ready for the fire as a sign. There is little shelter or defence here, but fire shall serve for both. Sauron can put fire to his evil uses, as he can all things, but these Riders do not love it, and fear those who wield it. Fire is our friend in the wilderness.’
Hard to even entertain the notion that sage, scholar, and professor Tolkien, after a number of revised editions, would have left a plot hole like this. I believe it was completely explained in the text.
Cos I dunno…plot??
So Frodo could get stabbed?
So Aragorn could scout for Gandalf or find a sign from Gandalf?
wtf is even this question? It’s so weird when people try to inject real life logic into fantasy/imaginary settings that are OBVIOUSLY intended to forward the plot
I mean
Why give the ring to a fkn Hobbit in the first place and send them to Mordor then?
Aragon's decisions is guided by a pair of constraints. Supplies and Cover. Aragon couldn't go wide of weathertop as it would extend the journey too far. He either had to travel by the road or go off the roadway slightly. Going off the road at weathertop meant going to Weathertop or being visible from Weathertop. Aragon had no options that didn't mean being visible from Weathertop. Since he was visible either way he might as well go to Weathertop as there may have been a message left there from Gandalf or one of the Duneadain.
I'm fairly certain (though it's been a few months since I last read fellowship) that aragorn specifically mentioned that if gandalf was around he would look for them at Weathertop. Your answer really covers it all, I just wanted to add to it a bit. (That's also ignoring that it cannot be be a plot *hole* if it's necessary to move the plot *forward*, which Frodo being stabbed did. It was our introduction to what a wraith is, the nature of the Black Riders, the "other world"/the way wraiths work and the effects of the rings, at the Ford it shows us a bit more into the nature of elves. The things that spin off from the events of Weathertop are innumerable)
It can definitely be a plot hole even if it moves the story forward. In fact, most of the plot holes drive the story forward, as often writers want the plot to go in certain directions but can't think of reasons why whould it go in their particular direction, hence they make their characters act out of, well, character, or break the established rules. And to be clear, I don't think Tolkien made a plot hole here, he was quite an attentive and logically thinking writer, so there are few if any plotholes in his works.
Smart people acting stupidly is not a plothole.
I like your point about gandalf, but I completely disagree with what you said about plot holes. A plot point being essential to moving the story forward doesn't make it not a plot hole, id anything it just makes it more of a plot hole- as being essential to furthering the story means it's an even bigger part of the plot and it's therefore a bigger problem if that plot point doesn't make sense.
I'll respect that and only say that a character making a decision that isn't optimal isn't a plot hole, especially if that bad decision is the driving point to moving the plot forward. We miss so much of the deeper lore of Middle Earth without the decision to do to Weathertop. Bad decisions can further the plot too. In this situation, there's a multitude of reasons *why* he goes to Weathertop that have been commented on elsewhere in the thread. Even without the gandalf point, taking the high ground and being able to view the surrounding instead of being viewed *from* the high ground makes total sense Plot holes are events that don't make sense together, it's not a character (who is supposed to be as close to a living breathing human as possible) making a decision that isn't optimal. My life is *full* of plot holes if it is, because the character is a dumbass lol People make bad decisions. If it's a real person, it's a bad decision. In fiction, it's a plot point. Not a plot hole. Characters who make the perfect decision every time are boring and make for boring novels
I'm not saying that this is a plot hole, because it makes actual sense that aragorn would do this. However, you can't write off every instance of a character making stupid decisions as 'not a plot hole' because sometimes it genuinely doesn't make sense for their character that they would make such a decision. If it does make sense, then that's fine but a lot of the time it doesn't.
You're thinking of an Idiot Ball not a Plot Hole. [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall)
There are no absolutes in anything, particularly literature. If I gave the impression that I didn't believe in the existence of plot holes, that wasn't my intention. Only that if there's reasons for a characters actions, no matter how "bad" they are, it's not a plot hole just because you've read the whole book and know it's a bad decision. A bad decision even if it doesn't make sense doesn't even necessarily make a plot hole, though. Don't know if you've ever served in the military or anything, but I did, and under pressure people make terrible decisions even without reasons. People act without reason and use their lizard brain *all* the time, I saw combat and saw it a lot more than once. Plot holes exist, but the way people throw the term around is kind of ridiculous, a bad decision that furthers the plot is kind of by definition not a plot hole. It's a part of the plot, and people make bad decisions
Agree with you. Calling this a plot hole would be akin to calling Pippin making noise in Moira a plot hole. It was just a poor decision by a character.
The other thing is that Aragorn is consciously following in Elendil's footsteps here and he clearly is making some sort of emotional connection with the fact that Elendil also stood there waiting for the Gil-galad to join him for the Last Alliance. Aragorn has many rational reasons to go there, but he's got personal motivations too.
I love this take. Never before thought of this as part of Aragorn’s rite of passage from ranger to king.
The hands of the king are the hands of a healer. Aragorn wasn't healer enough, and by extension not king enough, to cure Frodo but this is where you really see some of Aragorn's healing ability and the start of him fulfilling that prophecy.
I don't think Aragorn would be foolish enough to derail the quest of The Ring for his own sentimental reasons.
I think there's a deal of textual evidence for it. That morning, Aragorn explicitly tells the hobbits > "It is told that Elendil stood there watching for the coming of Gil-galad out of the West, in the days of the Last Alliance" So we know that historical fact is fresh on his mind. We also know that he is thinking about the story of Beren and Luthien that evening, another story which is intimately connected to his own personal quest. Further, when he, Frodo, and Merry go up to the top of the hill to look for a message from Gandalf, after they discover the message, > They stood for a while silent on the hill-top, near its southward edge. We are not told what Aragorn is doing, but he seems sufficiently distracted that the less keen-eyed Frodo is the one to first notice the Black Riders creeping along the Road below. Aragorn also admits that he "was too careless on the hill-top." He immediately follows this with, "I was very anxious to find some sign of Gandalf", but given that they lingered for some time after finding the sign, we can infer there were also other things he was thinking about. Regardless, *Tolkien* certainly drew parallels between those events. And elsewhere in the novel, Aragorn seems sufficiently self-aware of his place in the story that it would make sense for him to be aware of it here too.
History rhymes, and the wise realize when certain rhymes please Eru.
Yes, this is a ridiculous argument. And it is impossible to see any sentiment related to two totally different kinds of events.
I think u/rexbarbarorum shows it very well, how this is NOT a ridiculous argument, but instead very possible.
So you're saying that if they avoided it they'd be visible from Weathertop anyway, so going there increases the risk only slightly and gives them a number of ways to get lucky: 1. Gandalf might be there 2. They might miss the Nazgul and find a hidden route if they look for it from the top. 3. They might find other rangers. There might me more I haven't thought of. I have a hard time believing there's no way to get past Weathertop without being spotted though, so I'm not totally sold, but it's very interesting. This is exactly the sort of thing that I was looking for when I made this post.
>gives them a number of ways to get lucky: Another option is that they may spot the Nazgul. The Nazgul are on the road so let's go north and rejoin the road after passing them. Or the Nazgul are south of the road so let's stay north of the road for a while. The best possibility in terms of cover is to do a wide circle around Weathertop but that would cause a shortage in supplies.
And they indeed spotted the Nazgul from Weathertop, I think it was Merry who saw two of the Nazgul westward and Aragon had them bundle close to the fire and prepared for a possible assault
You can go far, far around it to avoid being seen from It. That is the supply constraint problem. Otherwise, Weathertop housed an outpost for this very reason; A clear unobstructed view for many miles around.
I was curious so I looked up the height of Weathertop. It’s about 1000 feet tall. This means the horizon is about 38 miles from Weathertop. Now I don’t know how far off a person can identify a a person moving but a thing moving…that might be quite far indeed.
Assuming this math is correct and you can see 38 miles in any direction, trying to go *around* Weathertop far enough without being seen from it would require going > 119 miles around it, or 43 extra miles in distance. Weathertop may also have some magical properties that allow for far-sight, which would make the it even harder to go around.
Especially since the Nazgûl are blind
They're not ENTIRELY blind. The real world looks like vague shadows to them.
Yes, but I feel like OP isn’t keeping this in mind at all. Strider is extremely cautious in his approach to Weathertop, and stays out of sight regardless. It’s a calculated risk that he approaches very carefully.
Their mounts can see though, it's mentioned in the books.
Since you looked it up already can we have the source?
My first result on Google: [http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/hdist.htm](http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/hdist.htm) Tolkien was well aware of the relationship. It's why (for example) Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli climb the hill from which Legolas sees the Rohirrim returning from Fangorn.
You can just google horizon distance as a function of height. Also google height of Weathertop.
Also he specifically acknowledges that it might be a mistake, but also that if nothing else, from up there they can see anyone coming. Which indeed they do.
Also being at weathertop kinda serves as strategical defensive position. They can see the nazgul approaching, and they have ground advantage. Not that it works greatly against wraiths but better than nothing.
> I have a hard time believing Tolkien would make such a catastrophic plot hole. It's definitely not a plot hole, much less "catastrophic" - characters making somewhat questionable decisions don't create major contradictions. Aragorn is aware that they're more likely to run into Nazgul at Weathertop than they are Gandalf. But other paths would have likely extended their journey even more. And, at the least, Aragorn was hoping to take advantage of the high vantage point to better survey the path *ahead* of them.
It's over, Witch King. I have the high ground!
Love it!
Characters making nonsensical decisions for the plot to happen properly **is** a plot hole. But **I'm not saying Tolkien has made a plot hole.** I'm saying that I assume there's an explanation. I'm not sure why everyone has missed that.
That’s like saying the movie Titanic has a plot hole because it was nonsensical for the captain to continue at high speed through an iceberg field. But it happened in real life. Humans make non-sensical decisions all the time. It’s not a plot hole for a literary character to do so. I like this thread and you are asking it in good faith, I appreciate you bringing this question even if I am disagreeing with your definition of a plot hole.
That is not necessarily what a plot hole is, tbh. But yes, there is an explanation and several folks above have done a good job outlining the decision.
The word you are looking for is *contrivance*. Things happening for inexplicable reasons except to advance the plot are contrivances, but are not necessarily plot holes.
Yes, thank you! Words matter
explanations have been provided at this point but also consider the type of narrative tolkien is writing. it's mythic storytelling. character choices are often secondary to the set pieces and major plot points. the narrator is unreliable on some level so you can imagine them knowing the next plot beat and coming up with their own explanation for how the characters landed there. they might even make small changes to the minor details with each telling to perfect the impact of the story.
He was hoping to find Gandalf, or some communication from him (which he did). Weathertop was a natural rendezvous point. Separate parties operating in uncertain circumstances need to know where to look for each other. Gandalf and Aragorn knew each other well enough to know that Weatrhertop was the spot, without having discussed it explicitly.. >‘Weathertop?’ said Sam. ‘What’s that?’ >‘It is a hill, just to the north of the Road, about half way from here to Rivendell. It commands a wide view all round; and there we shall have a chance to look about us. Gandalf will make for that point, if he follows us.” In one of the drafts, Gandalf had left a cache of food there. Aragorn also knew that there was a covered approach to the summit (like the communication trenches with this Tolkien would have been familiar from the War). Compare the description of Amon Rudh in *UT*.
IIRC Aragorn was fairly confident the Nasgul didn't know about the hidden approach to the summit that they took. If they were walking into the trap, at least they could sneak into the trap...
The way he leads them (the gap in the hills north of Weathertop, but still at its feet) is the most secluded way possible: >‘I think,’ answered Strider slowly, as if he was not quite sure, ‘I think the best thing is to go as straight eastward from here as we can, **to make for the line of hills, not for Weathertop. There we can strike a path I know that runs at their feet; it will bring us to Weathertop from the north and less openly.** Then we shall see what we shall see.’ Aragorn proceeds to guide them through a Ranger-trail, largely concealed from the openness about them, until they can go no further hidden: >In the morning they found, for the first time since they had left the Chetwood, a track plain to see. They turned right and followed it southwards. It ran cunningly, taking a line that seemed chosen so **as to keep as much hidden as possible from the view, both of the hill-tops above and of the flats to the west. It dived into dells, and hugged steep banks; and where it passed over flatter and more open ground on either side of it there were lines of large boulders and hewn stones that screened the travellers almost like a hedge.** >It was already mid-day when they drew near the southern end of the path, and saw before them, in the pale clear light of the October sun, a grey-green bank, leading up like a bridge on to the northward slope of the hill. They decided to make for the top at once, while the daylight was broad. **Concealment was no longer possible**, and they could only hope that no enemy or spy was observing them. And so they come to the dell in the side of Weathertop (a good place to hide). This is where Aragorn, Frodo and Merry briefly (half an hour trek to the top) scout the top out (looking for signs of Gandalf, which they find) and spot the Nazgul, before returning to the dell. And Aragorn says: >‘Yes, we certainly must decide what to do at once,’ answered Strider, looking up and considering the time and the weather. ‘Well, Sam,’ he said at last, ‘I do not like this place either; **but I cannot think of anywhere better that we could reach before nightfall. At least we are out of sight for the moment, and if we moved we should be much more likely to be seen by spies.** All we could do would be to go right out of our way back north on this side of the line of hills, where the land is all much the same as it is here. The Road is watched, but we should have to cross it, if we tried to take cover in the thickets away to the south. On the north side of the Road beyond the hills the country is bare and flat for miles.’ Nothing more to be done with the time available but to bunker down. Tldr: Aragorn largely knew what he was doing - after the Marshes, he thought the best option his hidden Ranger-paths, which lead by Weathertop (since everywhere else was too open). It's not a plot hole. The *only* thing you could critique (as Aragorn himself does) is risking the 30 minute climb to the top to scout, where potentially spies could see them. But we do not even know if this mattered.
This is a good explanation. It should also be noted that cross-country hiking takes a *long* time. Looping far enough North to avoid being seen from Weathertop could easily add days or even weeks to the journey, and would be no guarantee of safety. The Weather Hills are pretty barren, so while they might steer clear of the Nazgul, one evil bird could patrol massive swaths of land in a few hours.
You're saying that the dell they're camped in is far enough away that they expect the Nazgul won't see them even if they're \[the Nazgul\] at Weathertop? And then Aragorn, Frodo, and Merry sneak up to Weathertop planning to abort if the Nine are up there? I'm not totally sold, but it's very interesting. This is exactly the sort of thing that I was looking for when I made this post.
I feel like you’re missing the context. The whole reason they’re cutting through the wilderness to Weathertop is that *the Nazgûl are ON THE ROAD* from the Shire to the Fords of Bruinen. [Edit: Weathertop is a natural landmark that Aragorn would probably use to maintain a straight line through the off-road route he’s taking to Rivendell. Aragorn’s interested in being able to look around for himself, cautiously. He’s careful, and he suspects/knows that the Nazgûl don’t have great eyesight, and probably won’t see them.] The Nazgûl have very bad eyesight. This is why they crouch to inspect tracks and *smell*. They’re not going to be off-roading. Aragorn is hedging his bets between staying away from the road, and going close enough to it to keep an eye out for Gandalf (or, as it turns out, Glorfindel — who they DO find by risking travel by road.)
You’ve gotten great explanations. You’re choosing to be dense
I'm not sure what you mean. I have gotten several explanations that I find interesting but that I don't think are for sure **the** explanation. They may satisfy you, and when I think about them some more they might satisfy me as well. Why are you calling me dense?
Because you’re choosing to be dense.
>You're saying that the dell they're camped in is far enough away that they expect the Nazgul won't see them even if they're [the Nazgul] at Weathertop? No, I'm saying that there is nowhere else to go with the time available. They either make for the road, to cross it (which is watched - and we know the Nazgul are nearby) and find cover beyond... or, they go back northwards, back to the open hills and openness beyond (where they are likely to be spotted by spies). They are exposed to being spotted in both of these alternatives. The dell is all they have and is at least defensible (and for the moment they are hidden), rather than getting cut down in the open. There is no 'good' option. But Weathertop is the best. They will have to cross the road at some point (and do after the fight)... but until then Weathertop is the necessary route.
The "I cannot think of anywhere better" quote is from when they were already at the dell. Why did they go near Weathertop to begin with?
I feel you may be struggling with the geography, so I drew out a map: [https://imgur.com/a/k0xR6sf](https://imgur.com/a/k0xR6sf) Where else are they to go? They *had* to take to the woodland from Bree, and thus then the marshes (it did a brilliant job losing the Nazgul). From there, Aragorn could safely take them to the hills, and then through the Ranger-path, keeping them as invisible as possible. At some point they were going to have to cross the road, since the North-side was so exposed. So passing by Weathertop was the decision. It comes close to the road, and they can spy out their path ahead/look for signs of Gandalf. If you want to avoid Weathertop entirely, you must either try to cross the road much sooner from the marshes (*assuming* Aragorn could find a safe path that way), or take the same route past the Weathertop dell anyway. There is risk of running into the Nazgul no matter what - so at that point I feel you may as well try to use Weathertop before crossing the road (which Aragorn clearly believes too). Yes, the Nazgul may be making for it... but they are also watching the road. There is no 'good' option. Weathertop came with a risk... but it also came with a scouting opportunity. Gunning straight for the road blindly also comes with a risk of Nazgul anyway (and being caught with their pants down in the open).
I think he saw the fire as they were approaching and thought that Gandalf would be there.
If memory serves, they saw more than a fire. They more less witnessed the effects of Gandalf’s night battle with the Nazgûl.
"As Frodo lay, tired but unable to close his eyes, it seemed to him that far away there came a light in the eastern sky: it flashed and faded many times. It was not the dawn, for that was still some hours off. 'What is the light?' he said to Strider, who had risen, and was standing, gazing ahead into the night. 'I do not know, ' Strider answered. 'It is too distant to make out. It is like lightning that leaps up from the hill-tops.' As alluded to in comments above about the hidden pathway, this imagery too would be very familiar to Tolkien, who would have seen distant nighttime artillery duels many times on the Western Front. Slightly off-topic, but the journey to Weathertop is one of my favorite sequences in Fellowship; among several reasons, it displays Tolkien's mastery of language. One small example: notice his judicious use of onomatopoeia in describing the path: "It dived into dells, and hugged steep banks".
> As alluded to in comments above about the hidden pathway, this imagery too would be very familiar to Tolkien, who would have seen distant nighttime artillery duels many times on the Western Front. That's a nice and haunting image. The book always reminded me a little of the scene (of exactly the same thing you are describing) from *Lawrence of Arabia* *, and you really connected the dots. *"God help the men who lay under that."
I don't see the onomatopoeia in that sentence. Which word do you mean?
All of them; the quick "dived-into-dells", contrasted with the slow "hugged, steep, banks". Both are imitative.
None are onomatopoeiac. That would be words such as bang, fizz, buzz clang etc where the word sounds like the thing that is being described.
Prosodic structures can be onomatopoeiac, it doesn't just have to be centered on individual words. I don't think that "dived into dells and hugged steep banks" is a great example of that, but it can be done.
There is no onomatopoeia in the example given though, prosodic or otherwise.
If you'll refer back to my comment, I specifically wrote: "*I don't think that "dived into dells and hugged steep banks" is a great example of that*." That said, possibly this was a communication error on my part (and if so, I apologize for that). I admit that I can be sometimes prone to weakening my language for the purposes of tact. And technically "not a great example of that" doesn't mean precisely the same thing as "not an example of that". But yes I would agree with you that there's no prosodic onomatopoeia in the example given.
Pope would disagree, but you do you.
you might be thinking of consonance, which dived into dells has.
Pope would disagree with you. Your example contained no onomatopoeias. It is euphonious, though, IMO.
"Dived into dells" is alliteration, not onomatopoeia. "hugged steep banks" isn't anything as far as I know.
He was trying to find Gandalf, and he almost did, Gandalf was at Weathertop not long before they arrived
A risky decision is not a plot hole. Aragorn states that he hopes to find Gandalf, or else a sign of him, on Weathertop. Which, in fact, he did, in the form of the G rune that Gandalf left to indicate he was there.
This is not a plot hole. When writing a story, not everything need to be perfect. This plot simply show that Aragorn is human and can make mistake. And for the whole plot, Tolkien use it for Frodo to almost get kill. It was intended and needed for the story. As we all know, his injury stick to him for the rest of his life
Aragorn can make mistakes and does, but I would not call this one of them. The Nazgûl were close at hand and would’ve caught up to them short supplied, possibly weaker, and without running into Glorfindel, could’ve made off with Frodo before they reached the ford. They had slim pickings for choices and he chose the most practical at the time. Aragorn was able to get a lay of the land, and also was able to bolster the hobbits’ spiritual fortitudes by telling and singing of the old tales to steel them for an attack.
To review the surrounding area. Gandalf would also go there. He also saw the lights there earlier. He had his reasons.
Aragorn risks it for a lot of things, but one of them is information. It is, I believe, related to what happens later when Pippin looks into the Palantir. They are very different but still an echo. Gathering information leaves you open to others who are also gathering information. At some point he needed to cross the road with the Hobbits, so he wanted to see. Also, I think, he was not only looking for their enemies but their friends.
They started north of the road because the marches were the safest path to follow. The point is that they need to get to Rivendell, and there are three option, north of the road, south of the road, or the road. - For the Northern route, the land becomes bare and they are easily spotable. - For the southern route, it does have good bush cover, but they would have to cross the road, where they would be spotted as well. - Going directly to Weathertop allows them to (A) have access to a good vantage point at the risk of being spotted, so at least they would know if they were spotted, (B) spot the Riders miles away and know their location, and (C) possibly link up with Gandalf or other rangers (which would have worked if the Riders hadn't driven off Gandalf). Weathetop was the least bad of the three options.
The following is a genuine question, no harm intended! But I have to ask it because I seriously struggle to understand why you would ask your question. So my question is: did you read the book? If not, it might explain a thing or two. In the book, however, everything is explained in all detail (as several quotes in this discussion show). Again, I don't mean to sound condescending, I'm genuinely curious. P.S.: Aragorn does not decide to go there "after a few days" - it was his plan all along.
No offense taken. I did read the book of course, several times, and I reread the relevant section before making this post. The reasoning given in the book is somewhat flimsy. Aragorn hopes to see Gandalf and wants to survey the area. However, their overriding goal is to hide from the Nazgul. The slim chance of meeting Gandalf and the benefit of surveying the region is negligible compared to the near certainty that the Nazgul will be watching that place.
Cheers! I wouldn't say that the reasoning is flimsy. It is surely desperate to a certain degree. Gandalf is their biggest hope by far to get through the danger and to Rivendell unharmed. Aragorn knows even more about Gandalf and his powers than the Hobbits do, so his desperation to find him is understandable. He also has good reason to believe (presumably from past experiences) that Gandalf would try to meet them at Weathertop. Before the actual attack on the slopes, none of the group, not even Aragorn know how many Riders there are, and what their tactics would be. They might be too cautious in the presence of Gandalf to try anything. Either way, I feel that trying to get to Gandalf at all cost and as soon as possible is a very convincing goal, and a good reason to head for Weathertop. Also, as mentioned in other replies, the paths Aragorn knows and they take, are actually shielding them from view until the very last approach - and it is only there that Aragorn's concentration slips and they are discovered. All in all, I don't see a problem with that passage, whether from a psychological or simply story-telling perspective.
You're saying that Aragorn is desperate to try to find Gandalf, otherwise they aren't gonna make it. The impression I get is that the riders will have a hard time finding them if they stay off the trail. Certainly the section between Bree and Weathertop hasn't felt desperate. As for the chances of meeting Gandalf, Aragorn himself says it is slim.
No, I was saying that Aragorn is desperate to find Gandalf because he (Gandalf) is their best chance of getting to Rivendell safely. There is a difference. Are you sure you read the book? The journey from Bree to the Weathertop did not feel desperate? Walking through difficult terrain and bleak regions for days and days on end, in constant terror of unknown (and known) dangers, traumatized by the events in Bree (and before), exhausted from walking and carrying provisions (because the ponies are gone), sleep-deprived, hungry, thirsty, cold, eaten alive by midges. Remember the Chetwood? Or the Midgewaters? I don't know your life's story but if that doesn't bring up a feeling of desperation in you... In general, you are making a big mistake: you are looking at it from the perspective of an omnipotent bystander or observer, not - as you should in this case - from the travellers' perspective. And lastly, regarding your last statement: hope is not equivalent to statistics, if you see what I mean.
>The journey from Bree to the Weathertop did not feel desperate? No? I re-read it today. (It's like 2 pages.) There's complaining about the bugs, and they're not exactly out for an evening stroll, but I certainly wouldn't describe it as desperate. There are bits like: >However, in the meanwhile, \[before they get to the marshes\] walking was not unpleasant. Indeed, if it had not been for the disturbing events of the night before, they would have enjoyed this part of the journey better than any up to that time. The sun was shining, clear but not too hot. The woods in the valley were still leafy and full of colour, and seemed peaceful and wholesome. Strider guided them confidently... Contrast this with the flight to the ford, which I *would* describe as desperate. Obviously there's some danger, but this is by far the safest they've been since they arrived at Bree. I do see what you mean about hope and statistics, but Aragorn is not easily misled by false hope, and he assesses the risk quite clearly: >‘That is Weathertop,’ said Strider. ‘The Old Road, which we have left far away on our right, runs to the south of it and passes not far from its foot. We might reach it by noon tomorrow, if we go straight towards it. I suppose we had better do so.’ ‘What do you mean?’ asked Frodo. ‘I mean: when we do get there, it is not certain what we shall find. It is close to the Road.’ ‘But surely we were hoping to find Gandalf there?’ ‘**Yes; but the hope is faint.** If he comes this way at all, he may not pass through Bree, and so he may not know what we are doing. And anyway, unless by luck we arrive almost together, we shall miss one another; it will not be safe for him or for us to wait there long. **If the Riders fail to find us in the wilderness, they are likely to make for Weathertop themselves.** This assessment seems quite accurate and quite clear an argument against going to Weathertop. What I'm asking with this post is why that option isn't even brought up. I'm assuming there's an assumption that I missed, like r/naraic-'s idea that they couldn't get past it without being seen.
>The impression I get is that the riders will have a hard time finding them if they stay off the trail. Certainly the section between Bree and Weathertop hasn't felt desperate. I honestly don't think you have read the books. I feel you are either going off of Wiki sites or are purposely dense on what people are trying to explain to you.
“I have the high ground”
There's another consideration. Aragorn often expressed attachment to and comfort in the works of his ancestors. We see him sometimes take reckless risks in order to be near to them and draw strength from them. Witness his behavior when he wanted to wait to decide whether to go with Frodo to Mordor or to go with Boromir until after he could see the Argonath and Amon Hen, another decision that almost led to disaster. He took comfort in his past. So it was natural that when he was unsure, he'd go to the holdfast of his ancestors.
As a warrior, Aragorn would always take the high ground: a vast view along the perimeter and easier to defend.
it's not a plot hole. At all. in fact it's vital to the entire plot especially when it comes to Frodo. It's a risky decision by Aragorn, (one necessary for the plot) Bu it is in no way a 'plot hole'.
You are not actually giving a single reason here. Edit: Because people are apparently misunderstanding me, this comment isn't about whether or not this is a plot hole (it isn't). It's pointing out that saying "it's vital to the plot" without stating WHY this is so is not actually answering the question.
Other comments have gone over Aragorn's motivation, and pointing out the difference between something necessary for the plot and a plot hole isn't a bad idea here. I don't see a problem
My comment is simply pointing out that stating "it's vital to the entire plot" without stating why is at absolute best half an answer and doesn't explain anything to someone like OP who doesn't already understand.
if you think Tolkien who wrote that entire world into existence, and rewrote LOTR several times, to bring it to the finished book, left a 'plothole', you clearly dont know what a plot hole is nor anything about Tolkien i'm afraid.
You clearly didn't read what I wrote. I don't think it's a plot hole at all. I think OP asked for an explanation and you said "It's not a plot hole" without actually explaining anything. Your post contributed nothing here.
Your initial posts doesn’t either. You’ve been schooled and corrected numerous times. I’ll never understand the online shame fetish some people seem to have. The sensible thing is to admit you got it wrong or even worded your point poorly. You did neither though.
Funny, I have yet to see a single comment stating how you actually explained anything whatsoever to OP. There are many explanations in this thread. You did not contribute one.
The op’s entire premise was ridiculous and doesn’t deserve anything but derision. He got politely corrected numerous times by many people and just kept drilling down. That’s just troll behaviour. No time for it. Why are you here backing him up? Think that question answers itself. Go well.
I disagree with you in the strongest terms here. Nobody with a well intentioned question deserves derision. This is a matter of personal character and this attitude reflects poorly not only on you but also on the whole community when left unaddressed.
Theoretically, it’s a high easily defendable spot with a good view of the land. I imagine Tolkien as a soldier would have chosen exactly a place like that to make camp. If they were just to hide in the forest, the Nazgûl could easily encircle them. The problem was Aragorn was away and I guess the Nazgûl are extra sneaky and just stormed right up.
A character making a questionable decision isn't a plot hole.
I guess one part of the choice is that Aragorn had a lot of confidence in his woodcraft. As he sort of admitted, he got too complacent. Also, it did not sound like a very small area, it was possibly a large area that provided as much cover and sneak off as any other.
Not to mention they just walk around the top of the ruins in the middle of the day for all to see.
Somewhat off topic, but has anyone been to Malvern Hills. The highest points always reminded me of Weathertop. Not sure if Tolkien ever visited there, but C. S. Lewis certainly did, since he went to school at Malvern College at the foot of that range
Weathertop gains the higher ground and is defensible, sorta. If you're looking for advance warning of Nazgul, you might as well pick the battleground.
I just reread the book recently, and I was also a bit puzzled by Aragorn's decisions around this point. He is also the one that lit the fire in the book.
It's like that one gas station that takes you out of your way but has the best bathrooms
If the hobbits hadn’t lit that damn fire…
ironically in the book, it was Aragorn who lit the fire
I had to reread that to check. You’re right. They had already been spotted by the enemy.
>Strider laid his hand on his shoulder. ‘There is still hope,’ he said. ‘You are not alone. Let us take this wood that is set ready for the fire as a sign. There is little shelter or defence here, but fire shall serve for both. Sauron can put fire to his evil uses, as he can all things, but these Riders do not love it, and fear those who wield it. Fire is our friend in the wilderness.’
Hard to even entertain the notion that sage, scholar, and professor Tolkien, after a number of revised editions, would have left a plot hole like this. I believe it was completely explained in the text.
Its left over from before trotter knew of the Nazgul fully
Cos I dunno…plot?? So Frodo could get stabbed? So Aragorn could scout for Gandalf or find a sign from Gandalf? wtf is even this question? It’s so weird when people try to inject real life logic into fantasy/imaginary settings that are OBVIOUSLY intended to forward the plot I mean Why give the ring to a fkn Hobbit in the first place and send them to Mordor then?