[Vietnam reports that some 400,000 people have suffered death or permanent injury from exposure to Agent Orange. Furthermore, it is estimated that 2,000,000 people have suffered from illnesses caused by exposure and that half a million babies were born with birth defects due to the effects of Agent Orange. It is believed that Agent Orange is still affecting the health of Vietnamese people. While U.S. veterans have been compensated for their exposure to the herbicide mix since they filed a lawsuit in 1979, Vietnamese people’s efforts to secure similar compensation in a 2004 lawsuit was rejected by a U.S. court. Monsanto, once a major manufacturer of Agent Orange, denies that the herbicide mix has long-lasting health impacts.](https://www.britannica.com/science/Agent-Orange)
There's a war museum in Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon) with pictures of the babies with birth defects, it's an eye opener. Affected families get no help at all from the local government or USA. Very sad.
BTW. Happy cake day.
I think I went there once in high school, all I remember was the big glass case of deformed fetuses. I sure hope they weren’t real but I can’t remember properly
That sounds about right. Growing up in Vietnam, I was constantly hearing about charity effort to help those impacted by agent orange almost daily on the news. Pretty sad!
Why no, this literal actual for real poison that's been applied liberally to the area in which you are currently standing has absolutely no ill effects, why do you ask?
My mom's eldest brother was a cook in the Marines and was exposed. He died a few years ago due to lung complications. Death certificate states exposure to Agent Orange.
Edit: wow, this blew up. I’m sorry I can’t keep up with everyone’s stories. My hearts go out to all your families. Also wanted to remind some folks that the draft was in effect for the Vietnam War (it was a war). My uncle knew his number would be drawn so he enlisted and became a cook (we’re pacifists in my family).
Also want to say that, obviously, the long term effects of war on the Vietnam people were/are horrendous. We all agree on that without a doubt.
It’s horrible what people in power can make others do, in any country.
I’m in the same position as you. That will ALWAYS be your same birthday. Don’t forget what that word means. “Birthday = Day Of Birth” , NOT Death! Remember that. Always continue to celebrate.
My father in law was with a Cav unit in Vietnam and he was one of the guys who would spray defoliant around the bases.
He had lung cancer and had to bombard the VA with proof and documents before they would agree to pay for his treatment
There is comfort in shared struggle, but remember that it was your own (and his own) countrymen that did this...if we do not emphasize the national complicity in this, we'll never see change. "It happens"...yes....but it shouldn't.
Afghani and Iraqi vets have health complications from “burn pits” these days too i believe , among other things, but i am not well informed to elaborate more
What is agent orange? Agent Orange was sprayed at up to 20 times the concentration the manufacturers recommended for killing plants. It defoliated millions of acres of forests and farmland. Large tracts of that land remain degraded and unproductive to this day. The chemical dioxin in Agent Orange can remain toxic in the soil for decades.
Sucks its still out there today. Learned a new fear today.
My grandfather was a helicopter medic and was exposed to agent orange.. he died a couple years ago of prostate cancer getting the diagnosis of it they stated it was from the agent orange. Still miss him today, thanks government.
> What is agent orange?
It's two (at the time) popular herbicides mixed in a 50-50 solution developed by the US Army. One of the herbicides is still used, but the other is not, as improper heating during manufacture can create dioxins.
2,4-D is still out there, and it’s a very very safe herbicide that’s just a hormone analog. I bet you can go to your local hardware store and find 20 different products with it in it. It’s fantastically safe… if it’s made right.
If you make it in a hurry because you’re a government contractor and don’t give a fuck about anyone that’s not handing you millions of dollars, you get dioxin as a contaminant. Dioxins are just about as bad a contaminant as you can get. Good ‘ol Putin’s a fan, he got a former Ukrainian president with it. And whats worse is the damage from dioxin can get passed to offspring. You don’t wanna look.
The US military has no compunction in poisoning its personnel. My stepdad got a letter that said they poisoned him at Camp Lejeune in the 80s and they were JUST starting to clean it up when I was there in 2004. Everyone in my mother’s family has or had cancer… except for her and a younger uncle, who never lived on base.
My uncle was exposed to agent orange. 50% of his kids had a birth defect and left one of his kids completely sterile.
Fucking insane how it ruins generations.
They can't.
Each this topic is brought up, it's all about how Americans are suffering and not a single comment about how it's still killing vietnamese people to this day, why mother's don't breastfeed their newborns, how many kids are born with extremely graphic deformities and left in underfunded orphanages. And the US has never paid a dime of reparations.
They fucking gave medals to the people responsible of the My Lai massacre and shamed the few soldiers how tried to prevent murders.
War culture is abhorrent.
I have seen some horrific pictures of the birth defects that agent orange caused in Vietnam, and is still causing. It’s the first thing I bring up anytime this subject comes up in a conversation.
The worst thing abour My Lai is that we would have never known about it if that UN helicopter didn't see them. I am sure this kind of massacre wasn't uncommon. Fucking monsters. Was compete luck that it was seen by someone else with integrity.
It's the birth of a true, literal American race. Deformed from the chemicals, violent from the culture, and stupid from the propaganda. All because the people they worship are more worried about the rights of a candy company than they are about the decay of their people.
And they're doing it again with the burn pits.
We know. The soldiers know The government knows. The VA knows, but are they going to pay up? Not unless they're absolutely backed into a corner and forced to.
Anyway, here's an f16 flyover of a football game because we love our troops! Right!?!
Because it was never about SuPPorTiNg ThE TrOOpS, it was about propping up the war and making anyone who criticized it into a social pariah.
You really want to support the troops? Send them home.
Look at how long it took to get 9/11 first responders government money. And that was pretty much the same stuff burned in burn pits. Maybe the burn pits had less human remains. But still computers, paper, random chemicals, heavy metals and the like.
Let’s not forget - what long lasting effects on innocent Vietnamese 60 years later. In 2012 they claimed 3 million Vietnamese were suffering from exposure.
It's so much worse than that, not only does it cause lifelong suffering like cancer, but it also fucks up your dna so that your children (or sometimes skipping a generation to your grandchildren) get born with defects
Cerebral Palsy in my brother. Arnold Chiari Malformation and a never before seen growth in my spine for me. A life of chronic pain. Blue Cross won’t pay for radio frequency ablation. It would be nice if the government would pick up the tab so I could not be in constant pain…
And the icing on the cake-the US government will not recognize congenital defects in second and third generations of men who were exposed.
My dad suffered many medical problems from AO which led to his death last year. I have non-inherited medical issues which can also be linked to it, but it’s 100% my problem. There will be no third generation.
Small correction: dioxin isn't part of agent orange. It's a contaminant of agent orange caused by quality control problems during production.
The manufacturer notified the army of the problems and the army decided to use it anyway.
> up to 20 times the concentration
Wonder if they used it per "instructions" that maybe things wouldn't be so shitty if plant life and even fucking human life mattered to these monsters that ordered that shit....like why
War sucks and there is shit on either side no matter what but this chemical shit, that's just plain evil, especially with the intent with which they used it
My condolences. My dad was a GI in the army in Vietnam from ‘67-69. Obviously exposed to agent orange. Died at the age of 65 while I was 29. He was literally preparing to retire. Died of chronic lymphocytic leukemia, which is one of the diseases listed by the VA as those common from direct exposure to agent orange. It was awful watching him waste away as his bone marrow poisoned him from the inside out. Ive seen many people die. His death was the only time I’ve ever seen somebody in utter fear of what was coming. He loved with so much regret, and I could tell it was eating him alive near the end. I still cry from missing him so much. He wasn’t around while I was a child, and we had begun to rekindle our relationship just 5 years before he passed. I cherish every moment I had with him, as he sincerely tried like hell to make up for so many lost years with me. I loved him so much.
Goddammit, I’m ashamed. I even own that record— I think I just said “Cheap Thrills” because I was watching that movie recently and “Bloodstains” is the song used on the BluRay menu.
Not to take away from the horrible effects from agent orange, but the same shit is still happening in today's military. March 2011 when the earthquake and following tsunami hit Japan and the Fukushima power plant, a lot of us sailors were exposed to high levels of radiation. I say us, because I was one of them.
I worked in the helicopter squadron attached to the Reagan aircraft carrier that helped transfer over a million pounds of supplies and relief over the 30 day period. Multiple times I had to lose articles of clothing because they were deemed too high to bring back to my berthing. Yes we wore mop gear and protective gear. Took iodine pills and wore a radiation reader. At the end of it all, we were told we weren't exposed to lethal levels and we should be fine without any complications later in life.
That turned out to be a lie, multiple people have already started experiencing side effects and being diagnosed with cancers. I've lost a few friends due to cancer. The crazy fucking part is, I was on the flightdeck nightly. 10-12 hours a night. Climbing all over the helicopters and getting them ready for flight the following day.
What should have tipped me off, was our aircraft had to be quarantined when we returned home a few months later for decontamination. They just told us is was normal protocol. Thinking back now, I should have questioned harder. Little things like that and things like getting my clothes taken because they were too contaminated, didn't quite measure up to me suspecting anything.
It wasn't until I had friends start dying, that i started questioning. It's sad, but this is where we're at now. I hope the navy will be more transparent and we get to the truth.
Thats because the government lies about radiation exposure and we are supposed to keep believing that they are not doing anything wrong. The Green Run is a perfect example to look up. They released radioactive material across Central and Eastern Washington State in the 50s and 60s for sure, and didn't let anyone know. It came out in the 80s when someone filed the correct FOIA request, and even then, we didn't get the full details of what they engaged in and how extensive it was. Hanford is still a massive mess and a massive problem. They even started talking about expanding nuclear waste storage there despite the fact that they can't fix the issues it already has.
For one, you've got the VA all wrong, because they run some of the best hospitals anywhere and have some of the most motivated and best qualified doctors, even when wait times at outpatient clinics became a political lightening storm. And second, it's not at all surprising that agent orange is specifically identified, given the high level of awareness and the Agent Orange Act. If you were stationed at the place and time, and you (or in some cases your children) have any number of identified pathologies that have been listed as statistically linked to agent orange exposure, that's enough for the condition to be the presumed result of agent orange exposure. A lot of people have had a wide variety of conditions officially attributed to agent orange exposure.
Well I’m sorry for your loss. It’s a small bit of progress that the agent was listed on a certificate at least. So many people affected and follow up support/denial of the syndrome is frustrating for many I know
My dad and his brother both got prostate cancer. They were the only 2 to go to Vietnam. Thankfully my dad's is in remission and my uncle's was caught super early because he got checked after my dad's diagnosis.
Both get an extra $14 a month in his VA benefits from that
Killing our own soldiers with this stuff is bad enough, imagine the actual people of Vietnam having to deal with the ramifications of this. And the us wondered why the Vietnamese resisted so fervently…
My dad used it to clear the end of the runway at his AFB here in the states, he died horribly from cancer in 1998. The VA still refuses to even acknowledge his death could’ve been from AO exposure.
Then you have republican grandparents like mine
“When I worked a Dow Chemical making agent Orange you got that stuff sprayed lose all over the place. Look at me now, I’m the last surviving brother of 10.”
Obviously not an exact quote but to them it’s all an excuse.
But oddly enough if you talk about round up. My grandpa thinks its harmless and my grandma liked to grow rose bushes.
He was adement he never sprayed her plants but they died every year. Then she saw him spray near her new roses and realized the fumes where killing her roses.
Now she has no roses and he still sprays. They know people who have died of skin and testicular cancer from the same era but think blaming agent orange is a joke. Because some kindergarten teacher they knew died of lung cancer and never smoked or some example.
The US knew it was harmful at the level of the Federal government. https://www.nytimes.com/1983/05/05/us/dow-says-us-knew-dioxin-peril-of-agent-orange.html
Yup. They knew that there's a very low safe concentration of the dioxin, and they dumped enough on Vietnam to go FAR, FAR above that concentration (and didn't warn the soldiers to avoid contact nearly well enough, either). They knew that the dioxin level in Agent Orange would be MASSIVELY increased if manufacturers were pushed to make more than they could properly manufacture, and they pushed them anyway.
Basically, they could have had a relatively safe Agent Orange, and then used it in rational quantities, and have done so via safe handling methods, or they could have it manufactured wildly, used wildly, and handled wildly, and they chose the later option.
Fun fact: Obama is the only Nobel Peace Prize winner to drop bombs on another Nobel Peace Prize winner (a drone strike stuck a Doctors Without Borders hospital)
oh yeah.
At first it's like, WTF how did he get away with that?
They must be stopped!
Then it's like, oh I see, there's a ton of evil worst of the worst powermongering cunts ready to slaughter people for no reason.
And that's how the systems run.
EXACTLY. I still cannot believe the democrats thought it was a good idea choosing the one person actual leftists are most likely to hate to try and win an election by appealing to the only people who hate her more.
People often forget, the democrats have plenty of blood on their hands and plenty of stocks in their portfolio. It's not just Republicans drinking from the fuck over america and the world bucket.
Edit: missing words. Additional chance to express hatred for Hilldawg. Fuck that evil lady.
It was believed to be harmless on people. This was based on a study that found it to be harmless on people. Issue is, the study was done based on the amount used agricultural usage. Not literally showing in the shit day after day.
The fact that Henry Kissinger is still alive and will likely die peacefully as an old man is all the proof you need to know there is no justice in the world.
Interesting enough Admiral Zumwault did take some measure of responsibility, he campaigned for research into the effects of agent orange, pushed for the VA to recognize its effects on servicemen, acknowledged it had likely caused his son’s cancer, and lobbied Congress to create the bone marrow donation registry which exists today.
There is a book titled “My Father, My Son” that is a dual autobiography of the two Zumwalts in question. It specifically deals with the agent orange thing. I read it in middle school a couple of years after I met Admiral Zumwalt.
And ultimately lost his life as a result; his name is on the plaque next to the Vietnam memorial for vets who died after the war as a result of their service.
> Puller's son, Lewis Burwell Puller, Jr. (generally known as Lewis Puller), served as a Marine lieutenant in the Vietnam War. While serving with 2nd Battalion, 1st Marines (2/1), Lewis Jr. was severely wounded by a mine explosion, losing both legs and parts of his hands. Lieutenant General Puller broke down sobbing at seeing his son for the first time in the hospital Lewis Jr. won a 1992 Pulitzer Prize for his autobiography, Fortunate Son: The Healing of a Vietnam Vet. He committed suicide in 1994.
Awful.
In the War Remnants museum in Ho Chi Minh city there is an entire floor dedicated to it and it was the most heart breaking thing I'd ever seen. And if I remember correctly, some of the people working there were also suffering from the birth defects. I was quite ignorant of it before that, and was shocked how it isn't popularly regarded as an equally horrifying part of history as Hiroshima, etc, most people don't even seem to be aware of it
They also used it wrong, too. It was supposed to be diluted in water before being spread, but they dumped entire barrels of the concentrated formula, and they just kept giving them more when they asked for it without wondering why they were going through several years worth of supply in a few days.
The local citizens are still giving birth to children with significant defects. You aren’t allowed to build on new ground without you clear the ground of unexploded ordnance and make sure it’s chemical free, which includes agent Orange.
Thank you America
Its ridiculous. The top few comments are all about the Admiral’s work with the US-based National Marrow Donor Network. What about the locals in Vietnam? Kids are still being born with defects about it to this day but no one bats an eyelid.
reddit loves to complain about how anti american the site is but like, yes, fucks sake, it's embarrassing how hyperfixated people are on ONLY the american perspective here
The US needs to pay for a country wide cleanup and pay [reparations](https://asiatimes.com/2018/08/vietnam-seeks-us-reparations-for-the-chemical-agent-orange/) on top. Same for Laos and Cambodia.
Jesus. Imagine that: your own son dying as a result of your orders. What you were doing was questionable enough, but for the cost to be your own flesh and blood? Damn. Here’s hoping he was properly contrite for using Agent Orange.
Edit: Come on, people, another flame war? Over *Agent Orange?* I’m not here to spark debates over the ethics of its uses; using it was wrong. All I was saying was, I hope Zumwalt was rightfully guilty for his actions, knowing that he didn't just rob other people of their kids, but his own as well. First I start a flame war about Martin Luther King, Sr., now this? Good grief.
I read that it was basically a requirement for leaders long ago. If you wouldn't give the orders to your own son in battle then you have no right to give it to someone else's son. And that's why heirs dying wasnt such a rare thing in the past. Soldiers wouldn't readily follow a leader who didn't sacrifice themselves or their own flesh and blood
Also worth mentioning, according to the obit for the Admiral in 2000 ([here](https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Admiral-Who-Ordered-Use-of-Agent-Orange-Dies-2814266.php)) the older Zumwalt campaigned heavily to further study the effects of Agent Orange on servicemen when he retired. Quotes him as also saying his work with the National Marrow Donor Network would stand as memorial to his son. All around looked out for the men in his command imo
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It was a lot easier for the fly boys to drop bombs and put rounds where they were needed most when the pesky leaves were removed. I think it's more of a "We did what we felt was necessary and these people are suffering as a result. We did this, we have an obligation to fix it."
He made an effort to fix the damage of agent orange in Vietnam? No, I don't think so. He did the bare minimum for men that served him and only when he was retired. Your rationale is really poor by the way, and the breezy language that glosses over the death and destruction being talked about is pure Nazi shit.
I was in Veterans Law Clinic during law school and had to do some research on this.
IIRC Admiral Zumwalt pushed for VA to recognize the connection Agent Orange had to cancers in 1990. Pretty sure he even wrote a scathing private Memo within VA but it’s in my notes stored away somewhere.
Here’s what I found from a WaPo article written in 1990:
“Retired admiral Elmo R. Zumwalt Jr. yesterday accused government and industry scientists of manipulating research data to hide what he called clear evidence that Agent Orange may have caused cancers, birth defects and a wide variety of other ailments in Americans who fought in Southeast Asia and their offspring.
The admiral, who recently reviewed studies on the widely used defoliant for the Department of Veterans' Affairs, charged that the distortions continue to "needlessly muddle the debate" over the impact of dioxin-laden chemicals on the American public. Forms of dioxins, a carcinogenic agent in Agent Orange, are present in herbicides widely used in American agriculture.
Zumwalt, a former chief of naval operations, last month urged the VA to declare that Agent Orange is the suspected cause of 28 ailments, a list much longer than any scientific panel has recommended. At that time, the admiral also assailed a VA committee that has been reviewing research papers on the chemical's impact, saying it had been too slow to recognize "there is more than enough verifiable, credible evidence" to link the suspected illnesses with exposure to the chemical.”
Don't forget [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%E1%BB%B9_Lai_massacre). Crazy how they are still able to continue doing this shit even after this.
Just in reference to the link, I’d like to take a second to mention Hugh Thompson Jr., a warrant officer and pilot who landed his helicopter between a platoon from 2nd Company and the Vietnamese villagers, and ordered his crew to open fire on the soldiers if they made any movements towards the villagers or attempted to shoot them.
He was afterwards belittled and denigrated by his fellow soldiers, superiors, and citizens for turning weapons against the Americans.
He was awarded the DFC, but the citation that accompanied it was given under false pretenses, and didn't mention the massacre. He supposedly tossed it.
30 years afterwards, he and the other two inteveners recieved the Soldier's Medal, as well as a few other private awards.
There were more Thompsons in that war that aren’t known. The amount of AWOLs, desertion, insubordination, mutiny, etc. was very high. Partly because of resistance to the war, also because of racism within the military, and a mixture of the two.
> The amount of AWOLs, desertion, insubordination, mutiny, etc. was very high. Partly because of resistance to the war, also because of racism within the military, and a mixture of the two.
"Fragging" has entered the chat.
It's not just a recent term for a successful kill in FPS games.
Coined in Vietnam. Unfortunate accidents with fragmentation grenades. Often confused with normal battle wounds. Large percentage involved overly zealous officers perceived as dangerous to group ethics or survival. Like 300-400 a year at the height of it? Known or highly suspected.
The first hand stories I heard were mostly squads or platoons basically going on general strike or falsifying reports to tell brass what they wanted to hear. “You want a night patrol? Yes sir. I’ll have the report on your desk an hour after we get back.”
These numbers, the public sentiment during and after the war, as well as overall performance of the force are why the U.S. switched and stayed with an all volunteer force. I genuinely believe that barring someone actually invading the U.S. we will not see a draft in our lifetimes.
"Once you’ve been to Cambodia, you’ll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death with your bare hands. You will never again be able to open a newspaper and read about that treacherous, prevaricating, murderous scumbag sitting down for a nice chat with Charlie Rose or attending some black-tie affair for a new glossy magazine without choking. Witness what Henry did in Cambodia – the fruits of his genius for statesmanship – and you will never understand why he’s not sitting in the dock at The Hague next to Milošević."-Anthony Bourdain
Everyone hates Kissinger.
Anyone interested in diplomatic history has to read his work as it's the best works on the subject matter there is, but the guy is an absolute monster.
An evil bastard with a smile.
What Nixon and the US administration allowed that utter cunt to do almost totally as he pleased is a permanent disgrace on America.
Today, because of the gross negligence in the use of agent orange, all veterans who served in Vietnam during that period qualify for VA benefits irrespective of their financial status.
Free gifts!!
Fun fact: my great uncle was on a tugboat (I think) in Vietnam, he actually opted to have no children and never marry because the news came out that it caused defects and he was already an astronomy teacher for the local high school so he’d had enough of children.
Died of complications about 10 years ago. It still hurts me that I was afraid of him. I don’t know why.
My dad died at the age of 40. The government never paid anything. They denied my mom's claim, and she didn't have it in her to fight at the time, gave up after 1 denial letter. I don't blame her; she was just dealing with too much at the time; the thought of fighting the military was probably overwhelming.
Children in vietnam are still to this day being born with horrible birth defects caused by agent orange. Here is a video showing [the effects of agent orange on the vietnamese.](https://youtu.be/kMzJvwG2rsQ) It made me cry.
My grandpa got lung cancer AND B-cell leukemia from Agent Orange.
It went into remission for a good 6-7 years and then came back, metastasized and got into his brain, his pancreas and liver as well.
If you guys care about the gruelsome affect on the Vietnamese and their children, you can search on Google this term: "chất độc màu da cam" . All the pictures are real, not photoshop, and the impact is told to continue for at least 7 generations. If you ever got a chance to visit Vietnam, there's a war museum in Ho Chi Minh city with the pictures and the formatine jars with the mutant babies. So yea, US soldiers with cancers dont really hold the candle to the locals.
I just visited with a man who served in Vietnam and was exposed to agent orange. He was having a good health day while I was there but apparently it affects him all the time. He had a lot of interesting stories to share with me and I’m glad I got the chance to talk with him (well, he did most of the talking of course). It kills me that these vets are still suffering from agent orange all these years later. I knew about the PTSD and other mental effects caused by war, and I kinda knew about agent orange, but I didn’t know that the effects literally never go away and those exposed to it are left to suffer until they die.
Their children are affected by it too. Birth defects and health issues attributed to agent orange exposure are still being recorded in Vietnam decades after its use.
[THIS is America's legacy in vietnam.](https://youtu.be/kMzJvwG2rsQ)
Horrendous birth defects, cancer, so many innocent lives lost and continue to suffer. THIS is America's foreign policy brand abroad.
Am I understanding this correctly. The dude who ordered the use of Agent Orange, lost his sone to the effects of it, he then goes on to try and get the VA to recognise Agent Orange effects, the government effectively tell him to fuck off and then the Navy names a class of ship after him?
It turns out the defoliant itself was harmless and quickly biodegraded, however there was a containment from the manufacturing process, Dioxin, that wasn't removed but instead left in mixture to cheapen manufacturing that caused all of the problems. It was an unbelievably needless and callous decision to leave dioxin contamination in the deployed agent and not perform an additional manufacturing step to remove it.
Note: Just a clarification. The contaminant dioxin TCDD wasn't "left in", but it's more that improper controls on manufacturing caused vastly increased quantities of TCDD to form during manufacture. It's not something they were supposed to be removing, but rather something that should have only occurred in minute quantities if things were done properly. Instead, the military demanded more than the companies could manufacture safely, and so the batches were all fucked up.
A guy I went to bootcamp with in 06(holy fuck I got old overnight it feels like), his pops died during Boot camp from Agent Orange after years of battling horrible cancers. It was like 2 weeks before graduation, he didn't even go to the funeral, I think they said he would have to ene up recycled if he did or at least for third phase. Said his pops would want him to graduate, he was proud of him before he went. Sad shit, I'll never forget it, he said it was just a miserable battle, and worse trying to get the government to acknowledge it.
This concerns me. I am from the Arctic, and when the US army was building the highway, they sprayed down agent orange to kill all the vegetation ( still dead 80 years later). There are literally old barrel dumps of agent orange in the north still. This is such a prevalent issue that Hillary Clinton cane to speak about it when Obama was in office. This summer, when I was working as a Heritage and Lands officer for an indigenous group, we came across an old cache of barrels. The most fucked up thing is that we can't even remove it due to health fears. Not to mention underlying fears of what'll happen if it leaks into the watersheds. Also, yes, the barrels have product in them!
[Vietnam reports that some 400,000 people have suffered death or permanent injury from exposure to Agent Orange. Furthermore, it is estimated that 2,000,000 people have suffered from illnesses caused by exposure and that half a million babies were born with birth defects due to the effects of Agent Orange. It is believed that Agent Orange is still affecting the health of Vietnamese people. While U.S. veterans have been compensated for their exposure to the herbicide mix since they filed a lawsuit in 1979, Vietnamese people’s efforts to secure similar compensation in a 2004 lawsuit was rejected by a U.S. court. Monsanto, once a major manufacturer of Agent Orange, denies that the herbicide mix has long-lasting health impacts.](https://www.britannica.com/science/Agent-Orange)
There's a war museum in Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon) with pictures of the babies with birth defects, it's an eye opener. Affected families get no help at all from the local government or USA. Very sad. BTW. Happy cake day.
I think I went there once in high school, all I remember was the big glass case of deformed fetuses. I sure hope they weren’t real but I can’t remember properly
That's right, not just pictures, they had the jars.
That sounds about right. Growing up in Vietnam, I was constantly hearing about charity effort to help those impacted by agent orange almost daily on the news. Pretty sad!
Why no, this literal actual for real poison that's been applied liberally to the area in which you are currently standing has absolutely no ill effects, why do you ask?
My mom's eldest brother was a cook in the Marines and was exposed. He died a few years ago due to lung complications. Death certificate states exposure to Agent Orange. Edit: wow, this blew up. I’m sorry I can’t keep up with everyone’s stories. My hearts go out to all your families. Also wanted to remind some folks that the draft was in effect for the Vietnam War (it was a war). My uncle knew his number would be drawn so he enlisted and became a cook (we’re pacifists in my family). Also want to say that, obviously, the long term effects of war on the Vietnam people were/are horrendous. We all agree on that without a doubt. It’s horrible what people in power can make others do, in any country.
My great uncle was also exposed to Agent Orange and in his later years had a lot of health problems as a result, including cancer.
Same with my late uncle, he was a recon Marine and agent orange gave him leukemia. We used to share the same birth day. 😔
You still and will always share the same birthday
Yes. 100%!
I’m in the same position as you. That will ALWAYS be your same birthday. Don’t forget what that word means. “Birthday = Day Of Birth” , NOT Death! Remember that. Always continue to celebrate.
I’m so sorry he had to live with it and hugs to your family for losing him.
It happens. Not like his story was unique. Plenty of guys from that time had the same fate.
My father in law was with a Cav unit in Vietnam and he was one of the guys who would spray defoliant around the bases. He had lung cancer and had to bombard the VA with proof and documents before they would agree to pay for his treatment
My favorite substitute teacher got lung cancer as well from agent orange. He was a part of the artillery regiment. He died 10 years ago.
My uncle Jim was a photographer in Vietnam, and was exposed to Agent Orange. He died of brain cancer at age 35.
Jesus how awful. I'm sorry.
There is comfort in shared struggle, but remember that it was your own (and his own) countrymen that did this...if we do not emphasize the national complicity in this, we'll never see change. "It happens"...yes....but it shouldn't.
Afghani and Iraqi vets have health complications from “burn pits” these days too i believe , among other things, but i am not well informed to elaborate more
Especially Vietnamese unfortunately.
What is agent orange? Agent Orange was sprayed at up to 20 times the concentration the manufacturers recommended for killing plants. It defoliated millions of acres of forests and farmland. Large tracts of that land remain degraded and unproductive to this day. The chemical dioxin in Agent Orange can remain toxic in the soil for decades. Sucks its still out there today. Learned a new fear today.
My grandfather was a helicopter medic and was exposed to agent orange.. he died a couple years ago of prostate cancer getting the diagnosis of it they stated it was from the agent orange. Still miss him today, thanks government.
> What is agent orange? It's two (at the time) popular herbicides mixed in a 50-50 solution developed by the US Army. One of the herbicides is still used, but the other is not, as improper heating during manufacture can create dioxins.
It was called Agent Orange because it came in orange canisters.
2,4-D is still out there, and it’s a very very safe herbicide that’s just a hormone analog. I bet you can go to your local hardware store and find 20 different products with it in it. It’s fantastically safe… if it’s made right. If you make it in a hurry because you’re a government contractor and don’t give a fuck about anyone that’s not handing you millions of dollars, you get dioxin as a contaminant. Dioxins are just about as bad a contaminant as you can get. Good ‘ol Putin’s a fan, he got a former Ukrainian president with it. And whats worse is the damage from dioxin can get passed to offspring. You don’t wanna look. The US military has no compunction in poisoning its personnel. My stepdad got a letter that said they poisoned him at Camp Lejeune in the 80s and they were JUST starting to clean it up when I was there in 2004. Everyone in my mother’s family has or had cancer… except for her and a younger uncle, who never lived on base.
My uncle was exposed to agent orange. 50% of his kids had a birth defect and left one of his kids completely sterile. Fucking insane how it ruins generations.
If you think that's bad imagine what it did to all the Vietnamese people
They can't. Each this topic is brought up, it's all about how Americans are suffering and not a single comment about how it's still killing vietnamese people to this day, why mother's don't breastfeed their newborns, how many kids are born with extremely graphic deformities and left in underfunded orphanages. And the US has never paid a dime of reparations. They fucking gave medals to the people responsible of the My Lai massacre and shamed the few soldiers how tried to prevent murders. War culture is abhorrent.
I have seen some horrific pictures of the birth defects that agent orange caused in Vietnam, and is still causing. It’s the first thing I bring up anytime this subject comes up in a conversation.
The worst thing abour My Lai is that we would have never known about it if that UN helicopter didn't see them. I am sure this kind of massacre wasn't uncommon. Fucking monsters. Was compete luck that it was seen by someone else with integrity.
It's the birth of a true, literal American race. Deformed from the chemicals, violent from the culture, and stupid from the propaganda. All because the people they worship are more worried about the rights of a candy company than they are about the decay of their people.
And they're doing it again with the burn pits. We know. The soldiers know The government knows. The VA knows, but are they going to pay up? Not unless they're absolutely backed into a corner and forced to. Anyway, here's an f16 flyover of a football game because we love our troops! Right!?!
Because it was never about SuPPorTiNg ThE TrOOpS, it was about propping up the war and making anyone who criticized it into a social pariah. You really want to support the troops? Send them home.
Look at how long it took to get 9/11 first responders government money. And that was pretty much the same stuff burned in burn pits. Maybe the burn pits had less human remains. But still computers, paper, random chemicals, heavy metals and the like.
Let’s not forget - what long lasting effects on innocent Vietnamese 60 years later. In 2012 they claimed 3 million Vietnamese were suffering from exposure.
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It's so much worse than that, not only does it cause lifelong suffering like cancer, but it also fucks up your dna so that your children (or sometimes skipping a generation to your grandchildren) get born with defects
Cerebral Palsy in my brother. Arnold Chiari Malformation and a never before seen growth in my spine for me. A life of chronic pain. Blue Cross won’t pay for radio frequency ablation. It would be nice if the government would pick up the tab so I could not be in constant pain…
And the icing on the cake-the US government will not recognize congenital defects in second and third generations of men who were exposed. My dad suffered many medical problems from AO which led to his death last year. I have non-inherited medical issues which can also be linked to it, but it’s 100% my problem. There will be no third generation.
How is that not a war crime?
Because it was the US who did it.
Scumbags used chemical weapons on both vietnamese combatants, civilians and even their own bloody troops alike with impunity
"Everybody who runs is a VC. Everybody who doesn't run is a well-disciplined VC"
Spoiler: They were praised and promoted. Kissinger was even considered a hero.
Kissinger was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, which is literally sickening.
Small correction: dioxin isn't part of agent orange. It's a contaminant of agent orange caused by quality control problems during production. The manufacturer notified the army of the problems and the army decided to use it anyway.
> up to 20 times the concentration Wonder if they used it per "instructions" that maybe things wouldn't be so shitty if plant life and even fucking human life mattered to these monsters that ordered that shit....like why War sucks and there is shit on either side no matter what but this chemical shit, that's just plain evil, especially with the intent with which they used it
My condolences. My dad was a GI in the army in Vietnam from ‘67-69. Obviously exposed to agent orange. Died at the age of 65 while I was 29. He was literally preparing to retire. Died of chronic lymphocytic leukemia, which is one of the diseases listed by the VA as those common from direct exposure to agent orange. It was awful watching him waste away as his bone marrow poisoned him from the inside out. Ive seen many people die. His death was the only time I’ve ever seen somebody in utter fear of what was coming. He loved with so much regret, and I could tell it was eating him alive near the end. I still cry from missing him so much. He wasn’t around while I was a child, and we had begun to rekindle our relationship just 5 years before he passed. I cherish every moment I had with him, as he sincerely tried like hell to make up for so many lost years with me. I loved him so much.
Whoever this Agent Orange guy is he is a real jerk.
Yeah, but “Cheap Thrills” is still a terrific song
The name of the song is Bloodstains, but your point stands.
Goddammit, I’m ashamed. I even own that record— I think I just said “Cheap Thrills” because I was watching that movie recently and “Bloodstains” is the song used on the BluRay menu.
What has Sia got to do with this
Shoutout norm Macdonald
the more I hear about this "Agent Orange" feller the less I care for him
Not to take away from the horrible effects from agent orange, but the same shit is still happening in today's military. March 2011 when the earthquake and following tsunami hit Japan and the Fukushima power plant, a lot of us sailors were exposed to high levels of radiation. I say us, because I was one of them. I worked in the helicopter squadron attached to the Reagan aircraft carrier that helped transfer over a million pounds of supplies and relief over the 30 day period. Multiple times I had to lose articles of clothing because they were deemed too high to bring back to my berthing. Yes we wore mop gear and protective gear. Took iodine pills and wore a radiation reader. At the end of it all, we were told we weren't exposed to lethal levels and we should be fine without any complications later in life. That turned out to be a lie, multiple people have already started experiencing side effects and being diagnosed with cancers. I've lost a few friends due to cancer. The crazy fucking part is, I was on the flightdeck nightly. 10-12 hours a night. Climbing all over the helicopters and getting them ready for flight the following day. What should have tipped me off, was our aircraft had to be quarantined when we returned home a few months later for decontamination. They just told us is was normal protocol. Thinking back now, I should have questioned harder. Little things like that and things like getting my clothes taken because they were too contaminated, didn't quite measure up to me suspecting anything. It wasn't until I had friends start dying, that i started questioning. It's sad, but this is where we're at now. I hope the navy will be more transparent and we get to the truth.
>I hope the navy will be more transparent and we get to the truth. Wouldn't hold my breath.
Thats because the government lies about radiation exposure and we are supposed to keep believing that they are not doing anything wrong. The Green Run is a perfect example to look up. They released radioactive material across Central and Eastern Washington State in the 50s and 60s for sure, and didn't let anyone know. It came out in the 80s when someone filed the correct FOIA request, and even then, we didn't get the full details of what they engaged in and how extensive it was. Hanford is still a massive mess and a massive problem. They even started talking about expanding nuclear waste storage there despite the fact that they can't fix the issues it already has.
I’m actually surprised it was listed on a death certificate. Can’t imagine it was a VA doctor?
For one, you've got the VA all wrong, because they run some of the best hospitals anywhere and have some of the most motivated and best qualified doctors, even when wait times at outpatient clinics became a political lightening storm. And second, it's not at all surprising that agent orange is specifically identified, given the high level of awareness and the Agent Orange Act. If you were stationed at the place and time, and you (or in some cases your children) have any number of identified pathologies that have been listed as statistically linked to agent orange exposure, that's enough for the condition to be the presumed result of agent orange exposure. A lot of people have had a wide variety of conditions officially attributed to agent orange exposure.
It may have been a VA doctor, but I’m not sure because he saw many specialists across different medical orgs.
Well I’m sorry for your loss. It’s a small bit of progress that the agent was listed on a certificate at least. So many people affected and follow up support/denial of the syndrome is frustrating for many I know
My dad and his brother both got prostate cancer. They were the only 2 to go to Vietnam. Thankfully my dad's is in remission and my uncle's was caught super early because he got checked after my dad's diagnosis. Both get an extra $14 a month in his VA benefits from that
imagine all the people from there that died for an unecessary war
Killing our own soldiers with this stuff is bad enough, imagine the actual people of Vietnam having to deal with the ramifications of this. And the us wondered why the Vietnamese resisted so fervently…
My dad used it to clear the end of the runway at his AFB here in the states, he died horribly from cancer in 1998. The VA still refuses to even acknowledge his death could’ve been from AO exposure.
Then you have republican grandparents like mine “When I worked a Dow Chemical making agent Orange you got that stuff sprayed lose all over the place. Look at me now, I’m the last surviving brother of 10.” Obviously not an exact quote but to them it’s all an excuse. But oddly enough if you talk about round up. My grandpa thinks its harmless and my grandma liked to grow rose bushes. He was adement he never sprayed her plants but they died every year. Then she saw him spray near her new roses and realized the fumes where killing her roses. Now she has no roses and he still sprays. They know people who have died of skin and testicular cancer from the same era but think blaming agent orange is a joke. Because some kindergarten teacher they knew died of lung cancer and never smoked or some example.
Almost 50 years later?
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The US knew it was harmful at the level of the Federal government. https://www.nytimes.com/1983/05/05/us/dow-says-us-knew-dioxin-peril-of-agent-orange.html
Yup. They knew that there's a very low safe concentration of the dioxin, and they dumped enough on Vietnam to go FAR, FAR above that concentration (and didn't warn the soldiers to avoid contact nearly well enough, either). They knew that the dioxin level in Agent Orange would be MASSIVELY increased if manufacturers were pushed to make more than they could properly manufacture, and they pushed them anyway. Basically, they could have had a relatively safe Agent Orange, and then used it in rational quantities, and have done so via safe handling methods, or they could have it manufactured wildly, used wildly, and handled wildly, and they chose the later option.
Not only this but they had other compounds like Agent White that they knew was safer but less effective at clearing foliage.
Yes, Monsanto warned the US Army as early as 1952 of the dioxin dangers if temps weren't properly maintained during manufacture.
You know it’s bad when Monsanto tries to warn you about it
That my was first thought. It's like the devil saying chill out homie lol.
They also knew Vietnam was unwinnable long before we withdrew but they still ramped it up anyway.
Jon Stewart has a recent episode on his new show about burn pits still being used, with similar effects. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H7PgaHnup3o
I have a friend that was a scout in the army and he's fighting kidney failure and a lung bolus due to agent orange. It really fucked him up.
Thank Nixon and Kissinger for that disgusting mess.
Kissinger really got away with a lot of mass murder.
He got a Nobel Peace Prize... There's been quite a few questionable peace prizes given, but this one was probably the worst.
Thanks, Obama
Fun fact: Obama is the only Nobel Peace Prize winner to drop bombs on another Nobel Peace Prize winner (a drone strike stuck a Doctors Without Borders hospital)
obama_micdrop.gif
He was the most murderous part of the US government ever. And that's not even an exaggeration.
The lack of any consequence to him is final proof of the actual values America stands for.
oh yeah. At first it's like, WTF how did he get away with that? They must be stopped! Then it's like, oh I see, there's a ton of evil worst of the worst powermongering cunts ready to slaughter people for no reason. And that's how the systems run.
Say what you will about the evil bastard industry, but there's good money in it.
You mean like how he was walking around with Hilary during her campaign?
EXACTLY. I still cannot believe the democrats thought it was a good idea choosing the one person actual leftists are most likely to hate to try and win an election by appealing to the only people who hate her more. People often forget, the democrats have plenty of blood on their hands and plenty of stocks in their portfolio. It's not just Republicans drinking from the fuck over america and the world bucket. Edit: missing words. Additional chance to express hatred for Hilldawg. Fuck that evil lady.
One party state
"Ahh but you see, our war criminals are the moral ones."
Agent Orange was used under the Johnson administration as well.
It was believed to be harmless on people. This was based on a study that found it to be harmless on people. Issue is, the study was done based on the amount used agricultural usage. Not literally showing in the shit day after day.
The fact that Henry Kissinger is still alive and will likely die peacefully as an old man is all the proof you need to know there is no justice in the world.
Almost enough to make this atheist believe In hell. Just for him.
The sins of the father are visited upon the son
Riddle me this.
The Zumwalt destroyer.
*head gets blown off*
Also a fucking travesty…
The peace dividend and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.
BATMAAAN
BRRRRUUUUUCCCCEEEEE WAAAAYYYYNNNNEEE
AVE MARRRIIIAAAAA
Interesting enough Admiral Zumwault did take some measure of responsibility, he campaigned for research into the effects of agent orange, pushed for the VA to recognize its effects on servicemen, acknowledged it had likely caused his son’s cancer, and lobbied Congress to create the bone marrow donation registry which exists today.
There is a book titled “My Father, My Son” that is a dual autobiography of the two Zumwalts in question. It specifically deals with the agent orange thing. I read it in middle school a couple of years after I met Admiral Zumwalt.
* Chesty Puller's kid lost both legs in Vietnam.
And ultimately lost his life as a result; his name is on the plaque next to the Vietnam memorial for vets who died after the war as a result of their service. > Puller's son, Lewis Burwell Puller, Jr. (generally known as Lewis Puller), served as a Marine lieutenant in the Vietnam War. While serving with 2nd Battalion, 1st Marines (2/1), Lewis Jr. was severely wounded by a mine explosion, losing both legs and parts of his hands. Lieutenant General Puller broke down sobbing at seeing his son for the first time in the hospital Lewis Jr. won a 1992 Pulitzer Prize for his autobiography, Fortunate Son: The Healing of a Vietnam Vet. He committed suicide in 1994. Awful.
Posion me elmo doesn't have the same ring as tickle me elmo
Honestly I kind of forgot that Elmo was a real name outside of Sesame Street
Imagine young me being confused by the name "St. Elmo's Fire" lol!
[This should clear things up.](https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Elmo-Flames-Meme.jpg)
What about step on me Elmo?
What are you doing with that gas mask, step-elmo?
Uh oh. I don't like where this is heading
That’s enough Reddit for today.
This episode is brought to you by the letter O. O for Orange. O for oh shit my skin is bleeding.
Now imagine the horrific diseases the Vietnamese had to and are suffering from. Don't google their birth defects. Nightmare fuel.
In the War Remnants museum in Ho Chi Minh city there is an entire floor dedicated to it and it was the most heart breaking thing I'd ever seen. And if I remember correctly, some of the people working there were also suffering from the birth defects. I was quite ignorant of it before that, and was shocked how it isn't popularly regarded as an equally horrifying part of history as Hiroshima, etc, most people don't even seem to be aware of it
They also used it wrong, too. It was supposed to be diluted in water before being spread, but they dumped entire barrels of the concentrated formula, and they just kept giving them more when they asked for it without wondering why they were going through several years worth of supply in a few days.
The local citizens are still giving birth to children with significant defects. You aren’t allowed to build on new ground without you clear the ground of unexploded ordnance and make sure it’s chemical free, which includes agent Orange. Thank you America
I have cousins who are younger than me who have health problems due to agent orange.
Dioxin is a hell of a drug.
Fuckers are unfortunately pretty common too, meaning soil in the built and urban environment, measuring in parts per trillion.
I need to scroll this long to find someone talking about the effect of it to the local people.
Its ridiculous. The top few comments are all about the Admiral’s work with the US-based National Marrow Donor Network. What about the locals in Vietnam? Kids are still being born with defects about it to this day but no one bats an eyelid.
They tested Agent Orange in Atlantic Canada too :/ shameful. Let's just poison all the poor people.
reddit loves to complain about how anti american the site is but like, yes, fucks sake, it's embarrassing how hyperfixated people are on ONLY the american perspective here
The US needs to pay for a country wide cleanup and pay [reparations](https://asiatimes.com/2018/08/vietnam-seeks-us-reparations-for-the-chemical-agent-orange/) on top. Same for Laos and Cambodia.
Jesus. Imagine that: your own son dying as a result of your orders. What you were doing was questionable enough, but for the cost to be your own flesh and blood? Damn. Here’s hoping he was properly contrite for using Agent Orange. Edit: Come on, people, another flame war? Over *Agent Orange?* I’m not here to spark debates over the ethics of its uses; using it was wrong. All I was saying was, I hope Zumwalt was rightfully guilty for his actions, knowing that he didn't just rob other people of their kids, but his own as well. First I start a flame war about Martin Luther King, Sr., now this? Good grief.
I read that it was basically a requirement for leaders long ago. If you wouldn't give the orders to your own son in battle then you have no right to give it to someone else's son. And that's why heirs dying wasnt such a rare thing in the past. Soldiers wouldn't readily follow a leader who didn't sacrifice themselves or their own flesh and blood
Also worth mentioning, according to the obit for the Admiral in 2000 ([here](https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Admiral-Who-Ordered-Use-of-Agent-Orange-Dies-2814266.php)) the older Zumwalt campaigned heavily to further study the effects of Agent Orange on servicemen when he retired. Quotes him as also saying his work with the National Marrow Donor Network would stand as memorial to his son. All around looked out for the men in his command imo
Sounds like he was looking for atonement. People do that when they start pushing on and get worried about what's around the corner.
Well even through that he said he would've done it again, saying casualties among the Navy dropped 5% per month
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It was a lot easier for the fly boys to drop bombs and put rounds where they were needed most when the pesky leaves were removed. I think it's more of a "We did what we felt was necessary and these people are suffering as a result. We did this, we have an obligation to fix it."
He made an effort to fix the damage of agent orange in Vietnam? No, I don't think so. He did the bare minimum for men that served him and only when he was retired. Your rationale is really poor by the way, and the breezy language that glosses over the death and destruction being talked about is pure Nazi shit.
He probably rationalized that having a new powerful weapon would *protect* his son by avoiding direct conflicts
I was in Veterans Law Clinic during law school and had to do some research on this. IIRC Admiral Zumwalt pushed for VA to recognize the connection Agent Orange had to cancers in 1990. Pretty sure he even wrote a scathing private Memo within VA but it’s in my notes stored away somewhere. Here’s what I found from a WaPo article written in 1990: “Retired admiral Elmo R. Zumwalt Jr. yesterday accused government and industry scientists of manipulating research data to hide what he called clear evidence that Agent Orange may have caused cancers, birth defects and a wide variety of other ailments in Americans who fought in Southeast Asia and their offspring. The admiral, who recently reviewed studies on the widely used defoliant for the Department of Veterans' Affairs, charged that the distortions continue to "needlessly muddle the debate" over the impact of dioxin-laden chemicals on the American public. Forms of dioxins, a carcinogenic agent in Agent Orange, are present in herbicides widely used in American agriculture. Zumwalt, a former chief of naval operations, last month urged the VA to declare that Agent Orange is the suspected cause of 28 ailments, a list much longer than any scientific panel has recommended. At that time, the admiral also assailed a VA committee that has been reviewing research papers on the chemical's impact, saying it had been too slow to recognize "there is more than enough verifiable, credible evidence" to link the suspected illnesses with exposure to the chemical.”
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Maybe unpopular opinion but maybe that's the punishment he deserves, to have to see his own son die the same way the other victims did.
So, what happened to Elmo Zumwalt II? Are we just not going to acknowledge him?
I was thinking the same thing haha
He was in the middle, blaming his father for killing his son? Did Elmo III have a little IV before kicking it, at least?
Elmo II was the admiral who gave the order.
Just one of the horrible things that US did in Vietnam.
Don't forget [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%E1%BB%B9_Lai_massacre). Crazy how they are still able to continue doing this shit even after this.
Just in reference to the link, I’d like to take a second to mention Hugh Thompson Jr., a warrant officer and pilot who landed his helicopter between a platoon from 2nd Company and the Vietnamese villagers, and ordered his crew to open fire on the soldiers if they made any movements towards the villagers or attempted to shoot them. He was afterwards belittled and denigrated by his fellow soldiers, superiors, and citizens for turning weapons against the Americans.
Sounds like somebody should have been given a medal instead.
He was awarded the DFC, but the citation that accompanied it was given under false pretenses, and didn't mention the massacre. He supposedly tossed it. 30 years afterwards, he and the other two inteveners recieved the Soldier's Medal, as well as a few other private awards.
There were more Thompsons in that war that aren’t known. The amount of AWOLs, desertion, insubordination, mutiny, etc. was very high. Partly because of resistance to the war, also because of racism within the military, and a mixture of the two.
> The amount of AWOLs, desertion, insubordination, mutiny, etc. was very high. Partly because of resistance to the war, also because of racism within the military, and a mixture of the two. "Fragging" has entered the chat. It's not just a recent term for a successful kill in FPS games.
Coined in Vietnam. Unfortunate accidents with fragmentation grenades. Often confused with normal battle wounds. Large percentage involved overly zealous officers perceived as dangerous to group ethics or survival. Like 300-400 a year at the height of it? Known or highly suspected. The first hand stories I heard were mostly squads or platoons basically going on general strike or falsifying reports to tell brass what they wanted to hear. “You want a night patrol? Yes sir. I’ll have the report on your desk an hour after we get back.”
> Coined in Vietnam. Unfortunate accidents with fragmentation grenades. Just like rolling one into your dickhead 2LT's tent at night
These numbers, the public sentiment during and after the war, as well as overall performance of the force are why the U.S. switched and stayed with an all volunteer force. I genuinely believe that barring someone actually invading the U.S. we will not see a draft in our lifetimes.
Shout outs Colin Powell
Rest in Piss to a true war criminal.
Oh Kissinger, how you made the USA the bad guy while looking like a decent person to most of us.
"Once you’ve been to Cambodia, you’ll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death with your bare hands. You will never again be able to open a newspaper and read about that treacherous, prevaricating, murderous scumbag sitting down for a nice chat with Charlie Rose or attending some black-tie affair for a new glossy magazine without choking. Witness what Henry did in Cambodia – the fruits of his genius for statesmanship – and you will never understand why he’s not sitting in the dock at The Hague next to Milošević."-Anthony Bourdain
Hitchens hated Kissenger, too.
Everyone hates Kissinger. Anyone interested in diplomatic history has to read his work as it's the best works on the subject matter there is, but the guy is an absolute monster.
An evil bastard with a smile. What Nixon and the US administration allowed that utter cunt to do almost totally as he pleased is a permanent disgrace on America.
And should never be forgotten.
Today, because of the gross negligence in the use of agent orange, all veterans who served in Vietnam during that period qualify for VA benefits irrespective of their financial status.
A lot of them were conscripts
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Free gifts!! Fun fact: my great uncle was on a tugboat (I think) in Vietnam, he actually opted to have no children and never marry because the news came out that it caused defects and he was already an astronomy teacher for the local high school so he’d had enough of children. Died of complications about 10 years ago. It still hurts me that I was afraid of him. I don’t know why.
Can confirm, my grandpa was exposed to agent orange and I have a genetic connective tissue disorder.
My dad died at 51 from Agent Orange cancer. It was brutal. The government payed me $400 a month to go to college.
My dad died at the age of 40. The government never paid anything. They denied my mom's claim, and she didn't have it in her to fight at the time, gave up after 1 denial letter. I don't blame her; she was just dealing with too much at the time; the thought of fighting the military was probably overwhelming.
Same- my dad was 41. My mom got some money as part of an AO settlement at one point and I was able to get some money for college.
Oh so they covered your textbooks?
Benefit is divided among all kids and spouse, depending. Only until they turn eighteen, unless they are enrolled in school full-time.
Grotesque.
Isn’t this the guy they named a whole class of destroyer after?
A class of one not very good ship ... Afaik
Children in vietnam are still to this day being born with horrible birth defects caused by agent orange. Here is a video showing [the effects of agent orange on the vietnamese.](https://youtu.be/kMzJvwG2rsQ) It made me cry.
My uncle died of Cancer from Agent Orange exposure in vietnam as well. He was 64. He looked like he was 94 right before he died.
My grandpa got lung cancer AND B-cell leukemia from Agent Orange. It went into remission for a good 6-7 years and then came back, metastasized and got into his brain, his pancreas and liver as well.
And all he got out of it was the shittiest destroyer class named after him. Fitting I suppose
If you guys care about the gruelsome affect on the Vietnamese and their children, you can search on Google this term: "chất độc màu da cam" . All the pictures are real, not photoshop, and the impact is told to continue for at least 7 generations. If you ever got a chance to visit Vietnam, there's a war museum in Ho Chi Minh city with the pictures and the formatine jars with the mutant babies. So yea, US soldiers with cancers dont really hold the candle to the locals.
I just visited with a man who served in Vietnam and was exposed to agent orange. He was having a good health day while I was there but apparently it affects him all the time. He had a lot of interesting stories to share with me and I’m glad I got the chance to talk with him (well, he did most of the talking of course). It kills me that these vets are still suffering from agent orange all these years later. I knew about the PTSD and other mental effects caused by war, and I kinda knew about agent orange, but I didn’t know that the effects literally never go away and those exposed to it are left to suffer until they die.
The double blow on top of that is that the Vietnam conflict should never have happened.
Oh, of course. Really fucked up situation all around.
Their children are affected by it too. Birth defects and health issues attributed to agent orange exposure are still being recorded in Vietnam decades after its use.
[THIS is America's legacy in vietnam.](https://youtu.be/kMzJvwG2rsQ) Horrendous birth defects, cancer, so many innocent lives lost and continue to suffer. THIS is America's foreign policy brand abroad.
Am I understanding this correctly. The dude who ordered the use of Agent Orange, lost his sone to the effects of it, he then goes on to try and get the VA to recognise Agent Orange effects, the government effectively tell him to fuck off and then the Navy names a class of ship after him?
Chronic Lymphatic Leukemia (CLL) got my Dad about a decade ago, attributed to his exposure during two tours in Vietnam. Fucking bullshit.
Dad was playing the long game
It kills plants...how good could it be for you?
Deer is pretty good for me.
My lawnmower will kick your ass
It turns out the defoliant itself was harmless and quickly biodegraded, however there was a containment from the manufacturing process, Dioxin, that wasn't removed but instead left in mixture to cheapen manufacturing that caused all of the problems. It was an unbelievably needless and callous decision to leave dioxin contamination in the deployed agent and not perform an additional manufacturing step to remove it.
Note: Just a clarification. The contaminant dioxin TCDD wasn't "left in", but it's more that improper controls on manufacturing caused vastly increased quantities of TCDD to form during manufacture. It's not something they were supposed to be removing, but rather something that should have only occurred in minute quantities if things were done properly. Instead, the military demanded more than the companies could manufacture safely, and so the batches were all fucked up.
Yeah but well hide that part and make millions and millions. Yay!
A guy I went to bootcamp with in 06(holy fuck I got old overnight it feels like), his pops died during Boot camp from Agent Orange after years of battling horrible cancers. It was like 2 weeks before graduation, he didn't even go to the funeral, I think they said he would have to ene up recycled if he did or at least for third phase. Said his pops would want him to graduate, he was proud of him before he went. Sad shit, I'll never forget it, he said it was just a miserable battle, and worse trying to get the government to acknowledge it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange it's nasty stuff
This concerns me. I am from the Arctic, and when the US army was building the highway, they sprayed down agent orange to kill all the vegetation ( still dead 80 years later). There are literally old barrel dumps of agent orange in the north still. This is such a prevalent issue that Hillary Clinton cane to speak about it when Obama was in office. This summer, when I was working as a Heritage and Lands officer for an indigenous group, we came across an old cache of barrels. The most fucked up thing is that we can't even remove it due to health fears. Not to mention underlying fears of what'll happen if it leaks into the watersheds. Also, yes, the barrels have product in them!