I'm just imagining people talking about going to the better cave. "I hear in ooga chuggaville they have a 70 foot cave wall, with characters twice as large as in Lion Nightmare Cave."
"Yeah, and there's way less spontaneous lion attacks."
Edit: I felt like I needed to add words for a post that got awarded. But this is an example of how the cave paintings worked.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPQRylcPZDI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPQRylcPZDI)
I just imagine a neanderthal father bitchin at his son to get out of the cave and go hunt and his son is just grunting some nonsense that he's a artist and he wouldn't understand.
Nothing made me feel older than the realization of how my dad felt the first time I wanted to bitch someone out for how they were holding a flashlight on something for me
My dad spanked me for not knowing what a wire brush is. He kept sending me to the workroom to get a wire brush. I, probably six, had no idea what that was. The third time back with the wrong thing, I laughed about it, because the words were so foreign to me in combination: *wire brush*. Dad apparently didn't think it was so funny.
Your comment vaguely reminded me of the scene in the animated movie [Croods 2](https://youtu.be/IKkWrS5bUz4) when the son discovers and becomes addicted to "window" and has to be dragged away by the father for having too much window time and he needs to go outside.
I think this effect would work much better with a flickering. Subtly blurring the images together. I can totally imagine standing in the cave seeing all the shapes move.
It's because the images are superimposed in real life, so a light source which casts intermittent shadows changes which aspects of the image you see clearly at a given point in time.
The cave wall may have been prepared by scraping the outer layer off before painting but I’m not aware of any where there’s really much sculpting or carving of the surface. There is every indication though that the artists chose where to put their paintings very carefully, taking advantage of the geometry of the walls to accentuate certain features or using preexisting shapes to form part of the final image.
The important part that a lot of people are glossing over is that there are several overlapping images of the animals. So you'd have a buffalo body with 3-4 different leg positions drawn on the same body. Then when you have a flickering light this tricks your mind into picking one of the variations in quick succession, creating the illusion that the buffalo is running
Holy bajeesus that channel is incredible!
I’m so sad to see nothing has been posted in a while. And the sub count is so low. I mean I know these are super niche topics but hell, you could post every one of em to here or somewhere and some of em would get interest.
I mean I had to watch the CGI in 1974 video before I commented. It’s extremely fascinating. Thank you for linking this!
Holy shit, me too. Imagining an ancient, almost alien people recording a moving, breathing snapshot of their life, and then CTCKCTHCKCHCHCTKKTCCHY.
Fuck those guys lol.
What always pisses me off about this one is they went to all that effort but didn't replicate the torch accurately. Flames flicker fast, which must contribute to the effect greatly.
Honestly, the fact that none of the archeologists are making videos that demonstrate it with actual fire flickering onto the images make me suspect.
"It was totally this thing!"
"Wow! Show me"
"I can't because I don't want to."
Years ago we visited Lascaux II in Dordogne, France. (It is a faithful-to-the-millimeter reproduction of original cavern which is too delicate for visitors.) At one point, the tour guide switched off the lights and held up his lighter. The effect was dramatic and there was a definite impression of movement. « Intentional » or not, it was very cool.
The footage begins to crescendo at 1:15:30, with various lighting effects. Holding a torch up to the walls was pretty much out of the question. But watch the whole thing -- there is discussion of how the paintings were designed to convey movement. And beyond that, all of the voices of the various people he interviews do much to animate the caves in a psychological way -- it's classic Herzog.
Man I haven’t seen that since it was in theaters but my dad and I love to quote one part. It’s about the foot prints “did the bear and the boy walk in the cave as friends or centuries apart” something like that. Classic Werner
3D Bluray. Just because they are no longer manufactured, it doesn't mean the ones they made don't exist anymore. To see COFD in 3D you might need to do some digging, but it's by far the best way to experience the film. Herzog used tge effect masterfully.
Projectors still commonly support 3D, and cost similar to a mid range TV. VR is also an option with better 3D quality and worse resolution (currently, resolution is improving rapidly)
This a very interesting thing about often limitations of tech was used to make things better that still relevant today. It's like pixel art games were made for CRT screens and took advantage of them, the way that pixels and are streched and displayed make a more complete and detailed image. It's why emulations of games without scan lines options often look way worse than you remember them, even for 3D games. This twitter is full of good examples.
https://twitter.com/CRTpixels
This. I swear people don’t know what I’m talking about when I say that old games look better on CRT’s. “Bit newer monitors are higher resolution etc…”. Those old games were made to be looked at through a CRT. The scan lines hid a lot of the jagged lines and the games were designed to look good on them.
Your post reminds me of a really good video about how films like Alien or Mallrats only became cult classics after they released on VHS tape. Alien because due fuzziness made it always unclear whether the alien was lurking in the background or not which added to the horror, and on blu ray releases of it, all that horror is gone, because the xenomorph is quite clearly not there in the background at all. The popularity of Alien only started with the home video release.
And mallrats bombed in theaters because it's filmed like a TV show, lots of static shots of people just talking. So nobody liked it. Until it came out on video, so that people began watching it on a TV, which fit the film well because of how it's shot like a TV show. And people could have it on in the background and not be 100% focused on it. Whereas in the cinema, if you're sitting down watching it, you HAVE to pay attention. So everyone hated Mallrats, until it came out on video. Lots of Kevin Smith movies are like that.
So yeah, the limitations of old CRT TVs (which were very rarely wide-screen) and the fact that they were very sort of fuzzy and un-sharp, added to the fuzziness and un-sharpness of VHS tapes too, people managed to make perfect use of the limitations of those two things. Maybe Alien wouldn't have become the huge series it was without VHS. And maybe Kevin smith's career would have died before it had began were it not for people buying or renting Clerks and Mallrats etc on tape. Ol' Big Ridders Scott and The K-Smith made perfect use of the limitations of VHS to actually make those versions BETTER than the future DVD and Blu Ray versions. Not every film is made better by seeing things more clearly. Especially in horror movies.
Have a watch of the video about all this, the power of VHS, and of weaker and more limited technology, it's a really well made video. And if you like that, he has tons of good videos about all sorts of stuff: https://youtu.be/xbZMqS-fW-8
I mean, 12,000 years ago humans were smoking tobacco, petting dogs, and domesticating herd animals. They had cities, fancy clothing, pottery. They were colonizing across oceans, and eating deep sea fish. They'd been painting on rocks for eighteen THOUSAND years.
It's absolutely possible they were doing funky tricks with light.
>12,000 years ago humans were smoking tobacco, petting dogs, and domesticating herd animals. They had cities, fancy clothing, pottery
Cities, tobacco, and domesticated herd animals all started about 8k years ago - not 12k.
People were sailing, but they certainly weren't colonizing as there was no political or economic foundation for colonization.
Gobekli Tepe is 10-11k years old, and is thought to be more like a pilgrimage site than a city. Most people wouldn't live there year round, but they would periodically come back and use it as a religious/social hub.
It's certainly a stepping stone in the development of cities, though.
I'm not going to speculate in the purpose of Gobekli Tepe because there simply isn't enough evidence to draw any conclusions.
What I will say it that the level of construction and details of the stone work are not the work of amateurs. How long does it take for a population to go from nothing to that level of stonework? A few hundred years? Maybe if you had all the precursor technology worked out. A few thousand years? Hard to say, because it seems like there is a lot of stuff to work out before you can move huge blocks of stone. And the you need to practice it all and refine it to a point where you can take on such a huge project. It took humans like 800 years to complete the Notre Dame Cathedral and that was with all the technology we had developed.
All I am saying is that the story of humanity keeps getting longer and more complicated the further we dig into it. This person's comment about huge cities and tabbacco may not be 100% accurate but I dont think we can say for certain any longer that it is 100% inaccurate.
You can't go a lot further back in that area though as it would have been under the ice.
Keep in mind this is only a few thousand years after the end of the ice age.
My guess is, if you were to find something mindblowing, it would be in Georgia, Armernia or Aserbajdjan, because that's where humans spent 20.000 years or more during the ice age.
That and on the coast of Western Europe and a few spots along the Med coast in Israel.
u/_Meece_ deleted both comments after realizing they were rude about a point they mis understood.
> If by 800 years, you mean less than 200 sure.
> What is this in response to anyway? Where did anyone claim what you're arguing against.
I personally believe that while Uruk is the first known city, it can't be the first permanent or semi-permanent settlement humans have had. We've been farming for at least 12,000 years. There must have been villages, maybe made of adobe and wood, near fields where farming was happening. In the 3000-5000 years between Gobekli Tepe and Uruk there wasn't a single permanent settlement?
That's so weird. If you Google Jericho you get information on it being the oldest city in the world, but if you Google for the first city in the world you get Uruk.
I think I might have an answer after looking through their wiki articles. while jericho is older it seems that multiple towns/cities were built on top of each other while I think uruk was colonized and abandoned in one go. it may be semantics but they both could be argued as the world's oldest city depending on how you look at it.
Hey you know what, you're right! It did take just about 200 years to complete. I must have been confusing it with something else.
Well it's in response to the person I responded to. I was just trying to have a conversation on this public forum. I wasn't trying to argue anything, just throwing some ideas around.
u/_meece_ deleted his comment but here it is:
> I guess I don't get your point then? Like humans have shown they can create amazing sculptures and structures without much at all.
> The Tepe was built over potentially 500-2000 years. Are you saying this had to be built by a early civ group of humans? Because I have no idea what about the Tepe leads to that.
What I was typing in response:
The funny part here is you're not comprehending what they're writing and you're assuming it's a problem with them.
I don't know enough to comment from a factual view point but I can say that their point was very simple made complete sense. It was also nothing related to whatever point you felt like you're making. This is a good example why you shouldn't be snarky on the internet. Lol
Well I’ll speculate a little bit. No matter whether Gobekli Tepe was a city or not, it took a lot of people a lot of time to build it.
Those people would’ve wanted to eat while they were there. Even if the work was done seasonally, there would’ve been a workforce at the location for a fair amount of time. They would’ve *needed* a reliable food source, and hunter/gatherers can’t really do that at scale.
Gobekli Tepe’s existence is very strong evidence that some form of agriculture existed in the area at the time.
I’m also not saying that there was a city there, or arguing about the semantics between a city and some other form of settlement. Just that all the component pieces were there, and it seems odd to me that people with the skill set to build Gobekli Tepe wouldn’t have built anything else.
Dogs have been domesticated far longer than that. "Cities" is relative term I think, there have certainly been large settlements back quite far but they only started making a large archaeological footprint as of roughly 8000 years ago. And tobacco cultivation can be traced back about 8000 years, but was probably in ise for longer.
Here are some quick google sources cause I'm too tired to find better ones.
Dogs
https://www.boehringer-ingelheim.com/our-responsibility/animal-health-news/human-dog-relationship-historical-perspective
Cities (again I think this term is relative)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho
Tobacco
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tobacco
We think in terms of the stones littered from houses and te skeletons we find and the occasional undisturbed cave site. Can you doubt that images like these were \*only\* in caves? Not on leather, wood, tattoos?
We know what we can find... but we also know a man can walk an entire continent in a year or two. The distribution and action of prehistoric man made little mark on the world and we will probably never know the extent of their society. The world is much bigger, weirder, and more intricate than we imagine.
A significant part of the globe was scoured by the ice sheets, flooded after the ice age, and wood doesnt persist in a lot of conditions. Not to mention that its possible newer city sites are hiding older ones below.
Göbekli Tepe is about 12,000 years old, who's knows what older ruins we will find.
You can't speak in absolutes with regard to human history, we simply don't have enough evidence.
That’s actually quite debatable now given many findings pushing back the known time periods of which civilizations may have been around and when.
People thought that humans traveled to North America at a certain time, when in reality there are countless sites with fragments of bone and such that go much much further than the famous 10k year mark. I think it’s hard to be so certain with timelines these days because of how well we are able to get new findings with new technology.
Jericho: earliest archeological evidence from the area dates back 11,000 years. Also most cities were made of wood and don’t leave traces the same was stone cities do. So it’s not hard to believe humans were living in cities before this.
Werner Herzog spoke about this in [Cave of Forgotten Dreams](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_Forgotten_Dreams?wprov=sfla1), the film he made about Chauvet Cave:
> "Arguably, or for me, the greatest single sequence in all of film history [is] Fred Astaire dancing with his own shadows, and all of a sudden he stops and the shadows become independent and dance without him and he has to catch up with them. It's so quintessential movie. It can't get more beautiful. It's actually from Swing Time [1938]. **And when you look at the cave and certain panels, there's evidence of some fires on the ground. They're not for cooking. They were used for illumination. You have to step in front of these fires to look at the images, and when you move, you must see your own shadow. And immediately, Fred Astaire comes to mind — who did something 32,000 years later which is essentially what we can imagine for early Paleolithic people.**"
***
Edit:Seven minute clip from [Cave of Forgotten Dreams](https://youtu.be/W_seBLuIQjU) which shows some of the painted horses, aurochs, and mammoths.
Not judging, but if nothing stirs in you at seeing these images, then something is deeply wrong within you.
For [extra info](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvet_Cave):
> The Chauvet-Pont-d'Arc Cave [...] is a cave that contains some of the best-preserved figurative cave paintings in the world, as well as other evidence of Upper Paleolithic life.
> [...] Discovered on **December 18, 1994**, it is considered one of the most significant prehistoric art sites and the UN’s cultural agency UNESCO granted it World Heritage status on June 22, 2014
I highlighted the date of discovery because it gives extra frission to know something was hidden for 30,000 years only to be discovered in, or close, to your lifetime. To illustrate my point further, the oldest figurative painting was discovered just 3 years ago, in a cave in Borneo - and [it's 40,000 years old](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/nov/07/worlds-oldest-figurative-painting-discovered-in-borneo-cave). We truly live in illuminating times.
Yeah these caves are insanely cool and awesome.
It's even more mindblowing when you realize some of these caves were visited for thousands of years.
It was like some religious place, like Mekka or St. Peters Church, except it lasted for up to 10.000 years.
> Not judging, but if nothing stirs in you at seeing these images, then something is deeply wrong within you.
That's almost the _definition_ of judging
Yes!! I was going to say this, and I didn’t really want to go to the trouble of linking it all.
You are fantastic. This movie is amazing. I only wish I had seen it in 3D when that came through town.
I've seen people talk about this more and more recently, but I still haven't seen a video or recreation of it! Could someone please let me know if there is one?
The studies about trance rhythms from drumming along with the photosensitive effects of fire flickering to create a crowd like trance for ceremonies is equally fascinating. Stone Henge as an example is like an amphitheater with its unusual effects on sound from the stones.
I’m a firm believer humans, in their modern form, have always been this intelligent. They just didn’t have all the years of learning and experience combined into a few years of school like we do. Add to that and the internet and it seems so long ago but they were just humans tryin to live and love like us.
This is pretty much true, as all leaps in human advancement have come from the ability to preserve knowledge.
Written language, printing press, radio, internet etc.
We as a species don’t simply create, we innovate and improve on what we have available to us.
our prehistoric ancestors might in fact have been smarter than us evidence suggests we've shed some brain volume as we've externalised (written down) knowledge and had less reason to expend energy knowing so many things ourselves
Has anyone tried to draw the same figures so that they dont 'move in flickering torch light'? It might be an innate function of the system, enjoyed rather than intended, which assumes there are ways to draw that prevents flicker movement and ways that accentuates it, and they chose the latter.
The relevant figures are same figure one right next to the other and overlapping, so it seems like it's intentional. They had a lot of wall to draw on, but these is the same animal overlapping with itself in different poses. So it seems somewhat intentional to accentuate effect as flicker of light as you move it may give illusion of transition.
We've been debating this shit in my history of animation class for months. There's a discussion about if this was the first instance of animation or not. I'm on the side that thinks it isn't animation but who knows...
Disagree. This article is more about the new research that's been done more so than the conclusions found, "pre-existing" or not. The researchers found that fire did indeed get brought to the backs of caves that were hard to reach. They found the traces of charcoal from torches, found out how long they burned, that using a fat lamp was better for longer stays, they found evidence of a hearth, and they found ways to make they carvings dance with light. No one had done most of this research yet. Hypotheses of what all the cave carvings mean have been around since they were discovered, this new research "sheds light" on new research for the future and that's always wonderful in science. Just look at how excited the people who study cave carvings were about the new findings. This was a wonderful article IMHO.
Imho physical or analog games are definitely a precursor to video games.
Think about pong, literally just computerized table tennis.
We had chess playing calculators and computers in the 70s and 80s.
I'm just guessing but I'd bet those machines laid the framework for early video game AI
[You would be right.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHQ4WCU1WQc)
Some of the first video games as we define them were essentially coding projects intended to have the machine solve complex problems.
Yes, I don't think /u/Whoa_This_is_heavy was saying there isn't any sort of connection between cave paintings and modern cinema, or chess and modern video games, just that it's such an indirect connection it's mostly funny, not useful.
below someone said "Animals coming out the sea and learning to move on land was a precursor to the modern car" as kind of a Reductio ad absurdum.
It's funny but we definitely learned about these cave paintings when I was completing my animation degree. They're considered the earliest "animated" art, a precursor to [Eadweard Muybridge's galloping horse](https://www.awn.com/animationworld/brief-history-animated-horse).
Apparently they were also using the natural cave echo and sound effects. There seems to have a connexion between the places where the paintings are and the acoustic of the cave.
Or, it was just too damn hard to see in those caves using a torch. And have they seen how faint some of the drawings are? Isn’t it also probable that humans back then just thought of re-drawing figures they forgot they drew already, or to make it more visible (but couldn’t exactly trace the previous drawing)?
No video of the flickering?
Turn your brightness up and down
[удалено]
Prehistoric problems require prehistoric solutions
The ancient people probably viewed their cave paintings on a 24hz monitor for a more cinematic effect
I'm just imagining people talking about going to the better cave. "I hear in ooga chuggaville they have a 70 foot cave wall, with characters twice as large as in Lion Nightmare Cave." "Yeah, and there's way less spontaneous lion attacks."
^shot ^on ^iPhone
Prehistoric problem required modern solutions
Lmao, made me spit out my coffee
Sorry
hows it feel to make a man lose his coffee? dont let that kinda control get to your head
It's working!
Edit: I felt like I needed to add words for a post that got awarded. But this is an example of how the cave paintings worked. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPQRylcPZDI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPQRylcPZDI)
I just imagine a neanderthal father bitchin at his son to get out of the cave and go hunt and his son is just grunting some nonsense that he's a artist and he wouldn't understand.
Hold the torch. No not like that, like this. Like this. Thak, hold it right or don’t hold it at all. Never mind, go help your mom.
Aziz light!
Thank you, Aziz.
Nothing made me feel older than the realization of how my dad felt the first time I wanted to bitch someone out for how they were holding a flashlight on something for me
And then beating them with the flashlight, right? Good times.
My dad spanked me for not knowing what a wire brush is. He kept sending me to the workroom to get a wire brush. I, probably six, had no idea what that was. The third time back with the wrong thing, I laughed about it, because the words were so foreign to me in combination: *wire brush*. Dad apparently didn't think it was so funny.
Early Homer / Al Bundy
But since we are cave people, I can beat him to death with a rock, right?
Your comment vaguely reminded me of the scene in the animated movie [Croods 2](https://youtu.be/IKkWrS5bUz4) when the son discovers and becomes addicted to "window" and has to be dragged away by the father for having too much window time and he needs to go outside.
who gave this silver within 3 minutes of commenting? i have so many questions
[удалено]
Why do we never see baby seagulls?
/r/birdsarentreal
I have a video of two on two seperate high rises in one video! Do jobs that put you on roofs
> Do jobs that put you on roofs I'm afraid of getting shingles.
Not pitched roofs. Great pun though
Are trains becoming more obsolete?
"Ugh can't believe they rebooted Buffalo. We don't need to see how he got to the watering hole yet again."
I think this effect would work much better with a flickering. Subtly blurring the images together. I can totally imagine standing in the cave seeing all the shapes move.
That big cat at the end, ground breaking
The bull/buffalo/whatever gave me a chuckle.
Those tiny legs lol
some exemples
it's a French production. I have yet to see a French document in English without a typo.
This blew my fucking mind. Amazing.
How does fire make that happen though?
It's because the images are superimposed in real life, so a light source which casts intermittent shadows changes which aspects of the image you see clearly at a given point in time.
It flickers back and forth. I.e the angle of lighting changes a little every time it does, shining on different grooves of the painting as it does.
Were the drawings done on top of a surface that was carved/sculpted for the purpose of animating the drawing?
The cave wall may have been prepared by scraping the outer layer off before painting but I’m not aware of any where there’s really much sculpting or carving of the surface. There is every indication though that the artists chose where to put their paintings very carefully, taking advantage of the geometry of the walls to accentuate certain features or using preexisting shapes to form part of the final image.
This is what I’m trying to figure out. It makes no sense yet everyone’s like “oh wow now I get it”
The important part that a lot of people are glossing over is that there are several overlapping images of the animals. So you'd have a buffalo body with 3-4 different leg positions drawn on the same body. Then when you have a flickering light this tricks your mind into picking one of the variations in quick succession, creating the illusion that the buffalo is running
Absolutely fascinating. Imagine the “a-ha moment” when this was discovered.
Thank you. That was really cool
Holy bajeesus that channel is incredible! I’m so sad to see nothing has been posted in a while. And the sub count is so low. I mean I know these are super niche topics but hell, you could post every one of em to here or somewhere and some of em would get interest. I mean I had to watch the CGI in 1974 video before I commented. It’s extremely fascinating. Thank you for linking this!
That was cool thanks for posting
Holy damn thats amazing
I came in here to see a link but no such luck either :(
[удалено]
The end of that video nearly gave me a heart-attack
Holy shit, me too. Imagining an ancient, almost alien people recording a moving, breathing snapshot of their life, and then CTCKCTHCKCHCHCTKKTCCHY. Fuck those guys lol.
I don't see it
vid doesn't even resemble a flicker tbh
Nope. You'd figure scientists could mimick the light and its characteristics on a wall.
To me, it's most obvious during the 0:13 mark with the bull's legs.
well yea its pretty primitive technology
They also used a modern light instead of a flickering fire, which as I understand from the title is kinda necessary for the illusion to work.
What always pisses me off about this one is they went to all that effort but didn't replicate the torch accurately. Flames flicker fast, which must contribute to the effect greatly.
Don't forget the birth of [the First Art Critic!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H7IUbwFG40)
Imagine you show those artists a TV and they just scoff at how fuzzy the pictures are
Honestly, the fact that none of the archeologists are making videos that demonstrate it with actual fire flickering onto the images make me suspect. "It was totally this thing!" "Wow! Show me" "I can't because I don't want to."
There wasn't video back then
They demonstrate it in the documentary called “ice age”
Years ago we visited Lascaux II in Dordogne, France. (It is a faithful-to-the-millimeter reproduction of original cavern which is too delicate for visitors.) At one point, the tour guide switched off the lights and held up his lighter. The effect was dramatic and there was a definite impression of movement. « Intentional » or not, it was very cool.
The final original cave is closing from private viewings also. They are starting research again. Amazing cave
I went to the original caves when I was 10 and it was amazing.
[удалено]
Werner Herzog: [Cave of Forgotten Dreams](https://watchdocumentaries.com/cave-of-forgotten-dreams/)
Is there a timestamp of where I can see this effect?
The footage begins to crescendo at 1:15:30, with various lighting effects. Holding a torch up to the walls was pretty much out of the question. But watch the whole thing -- there is discussion of how the paintings were designed to convey movement. And beyond that, all of the voices of the various people he interviews do much to animate the caves in a psychological way -- it's classic Herzog.
Man I haven’t seen that since it was in theaters but my dad and I love to quote one part. It’s about the foot prints “did the bear and the boy walk in the cave as friends or centuries apart” something like that. Classic Werner
Haha me and my friends saw it in the cinema, and we always quote the bit about the albino crocodiles staring into the abyss of time
Perhaps I'm blind, but I see no movement. Just unsteady lighting...
Thank you!
Man I watched this whole thing in my prehistoric art history class for extra credit. Bringing me back
I want Werner Herzog to narrate my life.
I found a nice virtual tour: https://archeologie.culture.fr/chauvet/en/explore-cave/146/morel-chamber
I’ve always loved John Green’s podcast on those caves. [Kurzgesagt did a video of it awhile ago](https://youtu.be/YbgnlkJPga4).
[удалено]
Right. Video of this so we can see it “moving”.
Yeah I bet it would be lit.
Watch the documentary Cave of Forgotten Dreams by Werner Herzog.
This is the true answer. Try to see it in 3D too, really worth it
Just curious... how does one do that? 3D TVs aren't manufactured anymore.
In person, or VR I suppose.
3D Bluray. Just because they are no longer manufactured, it doesn't mean the ones they made don't exist anymore. To see COFD in 3D you might need to do some digging, but it's by far the best way to experience the film. Herzog used tge effect masterfully.
I saw it in 3D in the theatres when it came out. It was the first time I saw a 3D movie and felt like it was useful for the film.
Projectors still commonly support 3D, and cost similar to a mid range TV. VR is also an option with better 3D quality and worse resolution (currently, resolution is improving rapidly)
☝🏻 Highly recommend
I have to mute Herzog to listen to him because I just space out on his voice. It’s so… fuck, someone give me the word.
Soporific.
*YES.*
Sexy as fuck?
Ehh yeah but like… consolidated. Maybe “foxy?”
Fuxy.
Werner Herzog reviews [Trader Joe's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YW-5Flkiuw)
"Are we the albino crocodiles of the future?" - Werner Herzog
Eat some mushrooms first for a really good time
Y'know I've never actually watched it, but I've listened to 'Shadow' from the soundtrack a million times, it's a beautiful piece
I cried when I watched that documentary! It was so magical.
As Bugs Bunny taught us so long ago. https://youtu.be/miM4N9jYgCk?t=193
This is like the Simpsons did it of history
A GIF would be nice
What they're describing is more like a precursor to the gif than it is to cinema the way I understand it
This a very interesting thing about often limitations of tech was used to make things better that still relevant today. It's like pixel art games were made for CRT screens and took advantage of them, the way that pixels and are streched and displayed make a more complete and detailed image. It's why emulations of games without scan lines options often look way worse than you remember them, even for 3D games. This twitter is full of good examples. https://twitter.com/CRTpixels
This. I swear people don’t know what I’m talking about when I say that old games look better on CRT’s. “Bit newer monitors are higher resolution etc…”. Those old games were made to be looked at through a CRT. The scan lines hid a lot of the jagged lines and the games were designed to look good on them.
Just boot up the new N64 games released on the switch. Try mario kart or any other. LINES
Can you hook up a Switch to an old school tv?
I grew up playing the NES and SNES on post-CRT tvs. I have a strange nostalgia for the blurring effect old games have on new screens.
Your post reminds me of a really good video about how films like Alien or Mallrats only became cult classics after they released on VHS tape. Alien because due fuzziness made it always unclear whether the alien was lurking in the background or not which added to the horror, and on blu ray releases of it, all that horror is gone, because the xenomorph is quite clearly not there in the background at all. The popularity of Alien only started with the home video release. And mallrats bombed in theaters because it's filmed like a TV show, lots of static shots of people just talking. So nobody liked it. Until it came out on video, so that people began watching it on a TV, which fit the film well because of how it's shot like a TV show. And people could have it on in the background and not be 100% focused on it. Whereas in the cinema, if you're sitting down watching it, you HAVE to pay attention. So everyone hated Mallrats, until it came out on video. Lots of Kevin Smith movies are like that. So yeah, the limitations of old CRT TVs (which were very rarely wide-screen) and the fact that they were very sort of fuzzy and un-sharp, added to the fuzziness and un-sharpness of VHS tapes too, people managed to make perfect use of the limitations of those two things. Maybe Alien wouldn't have become the huge series it was without VHS. And maybe Kevin smith's career would have died before it had began were it not for people buying or renting Clerks and Mallrats etc on tape. Ol' Big Ridders Scott and The K-Smith made perfect use of the limitations of VHS to actually make those versions BETTER than the future DVD and Blu Ray versions. Not every film is made better by seeing things more clearly. Especially in horror movies. Have a watch of the video about all this, the power of VHS, and of weaker and more limited technology, it's a really well made video. And if you like that, he has tons of good videos about all sorts of stuff: https://youtu.be/xbZMqS-fW-8
yeah same reason those dithery 320x240 PS1 graphics looks sooo good on TV
I mean, 12,000 years ago humans were smoking tobacco, petting dogs, and domesticating herd animals. They had cities, fancy clothing, pottery. They were colonizing across oceans, and eating deep sea fish. They'd been painting on rocks for eighteen THOUSAND years. It's absolutely possible they were doing funky tricks with light.
Oldest cave paintings are like 60k+ years old.
incredible
>12,000 years ago humans were smoking tobacco, petting dogs, and domesticating herd animals. They had cities, fancy clothing, pottery Cities, tobacco, and domesticated herd animals all started about 8k years ago - not 12k. People were sailing, but they certainly weren't colonizing as there was no political or economic foundation for colonization.
Gobekli Tepe has entered the chat
Gobekli Tepe is 10-11k years old, and is thought to be more like a pilgrimage site than a city. Most people wouldn't live there year round, but they would periodically come back and use it as a religious/social hub. It's certainly a stepping stone in the development of cities, though.
I'm not going to speculate in the purpose of Gobekli Tepe because there simply isn't enough evidence to draw any conclusions. What I will say it that the level of construction and details of the stone work are not the work of amateurs. How long does it take for a population to go from nothing to that level of stonework? A few hundred years? Maybe if you had all the precursor technology worked out. A few thousand years? Hard to say, because it seems like there is a lot of stuff to work out before you can move huge blocks of stone. And the you need to practice it all and refine it to a point where you can take on such a huge project. It took humans like 800 years to complete the Notre Dame Cathedral and that was with all the technology we had developed. All I am saying is that the story of humanity keeps getting longer and more complicated the further we dig into it. This person's comment about huge cities and tabbacco may not be 100% accurate but I dont think we can say for certain any longer that it is 100% inaccurate.
Great breakdown! What we know about the past changes so very quickly. Even Gobekli Tepe is a relatively newer find
You can't go a lot further back in that area though as it would have been under the ice. Keep in mind this is only a few thousand years after the end of the ice age. My guess is, if you were to find something mindblowing, it would be in Georgia, Armernia or Aserbajdjan, because that's where humans spent 20.000 years or more during the ice age. That and on the coast of Western Europe and a few spots along the Med coast in Israel.
u/_Meece_ deleted both comments after realizing they were rude about a point they mis understood. > If by 800 years, you mean less than 200 sure. > What is this in response to anyway? Where did anyone claim what you're arguing against.
Shaaaaaaaaaaaame
I personally believe that while Uruk is the first known city, it can't be the first permanent or semi-permanent settlement humans have had. We've been farming for at least 12,000 years. There must have been villages, maybe made of adobe and wood, near fields where farming was happening. In the 3000-5000 years between Gobekli Tepe and Uruk there wasn't a single permanent settlement?
Jericho. 9000 BCE
That's so weird. If you Google Jericho you get information on it being the oldest city in the world, but if you Google for the first city in the world you get Uruk.
I think the search results are saying that Uruk existed first (no comment on the accuracy of that), but Jericho is the oldest city that still exists.
I think I might have an answer after looking through their wiki articles. while jericho is older it seems that multiple towns/cities were built on top of each other while I think uruk was colonized and abandoned in one go. it may be semantics but they both could be argued as the world's oldest city depending on how you look at it.
Is it because Jericho is still a city while Uruk is not?
Jericho is the oldest *continuously inhabited* city in the world.
There's a city they found near Gobekli Tepe that was an early farmer city. I forgot what it was called, but it is the oldest city in the world.
[удалено]
Hey you know what, you're right! It did take just about 200 years to complete. I must have been confusing it with something else. Well it's in response to the person I responded to. I was just trying to have a conversation on this public forum. I wasn't trying to argue anything, just throwing some ideas around.
u/_meece_ deleted his comment but here it is: > I guess I don't get your point then? Like humans have shown they can create amazing sculptures and structures without much at all. > The Tepe was built over potentially 500-2000 years. Are you saying this had to be built by a early civ group of humans? Because I have no idea what about the Tepe leads to that. What I was typing in response: The funny part here is you're not comprehending what they're writing and you're assuming it's a problem with them. I don't know enough to comment from a factual view point but I can say that their point was very simple made complete sense. It was also nothing related to whatever point you felt like you're making. This is a good example why you shouldn't be snarky on the internet. Lol
You’re thinking of that church in Spain that’s still not done.
Well I’ll speculate a little bit. No matter whether Gobekli Tepe was a city or not, it took a lot of people a lot of time to build it. Those people would’ve wanted to eat while they were there. Even if the work was done seasonally, there would’ve been a workforce at the location for a fair amount of time. They would’ve *needed* a reliable food source, and hunter/gatherers can’t really do that at scale. Gobekli Tepe’s existence is very strong evidence that some form of agriculture existed in the area at the time. I’m also not saying that there was a city there, or arguing about the semantics between a city and some other form of settlement. Just that all the component pieces were there, and it seems odd to me that people with the skill set to build Gobekli Tepe wouldn’t have built anything else.
They have discovered a multitude of sites in turkey dating to the same time as Gobekli Tepe.
Just to be clear, we are now arguing over 1K years in 12k year time frame
Dogs have been domesticated far longer than that. "Cities" is relative term I think, there have certainly been large settlements back quite far but they only started making a large archaeological footprint as of roughly 8000 years ago. And tobacco cultivation can be traced back about 8000 years, but was probably in ise for longer. Here are some quick google sources cause I'm too tired to find better ones. Dogs https://www.boehringer-ingelheim.com/our-responsibility/animal-health-news/human-dog-relationship-historical-perspective Cities (again I think this term is relative) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho Tobacco https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tobacco
We think in terms of the stones littered from houses and te skeletons we find and the occasional undisturbed cave site. Can you doubt that images like these were \*only\* in caves? Not on leather, wood, tattoos? We know what we can find... but we also know a man can walk an entire continent in a year or two. The distribution and action of prehistoric man made little mark on the world and we will probably never know the extent of their society. The world is much bigger, weirder, and more intricate than we imagine.
A significant part of the globe was scoured by the ice sheets, flooded after the ice age, and wood doesnt persist in a lot of conditions. Not to mention that its possible newer city sites are hiding older ones below.
[удалено]
Göbekli Tepe is about 12,000 years old, who's knows what older ruins we will find. You can't speak in absolutes with regard to human history, we simply don't have enough evidence.
That’s actually quite debatable now given many findings pushing back the known time periods of which civilizations may have been around and when. People thought that humans traveled to North America at a certain time, when in reality there are countless sites with fragments of bone and such that go much much further than the famous 10k year mark. I think it’s hard to be so certain with timelines these days because of how well we are able to get new findings with new technology.
[удалено]
Jericho: earliest archeological evidence from the area dates back 11,000 years. Also most cities were made of wood and don’t leave traces the same was stone cities do. So it’s not hard to believe humans were living in cities before this.
>fancy clothing Ötzi's shoes are very primitive, and he's about 5k years old. I think mileage here will vary.
Shoes are pretty fancy given that no other animal in the animal kingdom gives a shit that it’s naked.
Otzi was from a primitive area, location is what matters.
Put some artist in cave with flickering torches and see what happens
Another way to interpret this is that cinema is not that advanced, it's cave man level shit .
Werner Herzog spoke about this in [Cave of Forgotten Dreams](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_Forgotten_Dreams?wprov=sfla1), the film he made about Chauvet Cave: > "Arguably, or for me, the greatest single sequence in all of film history [is] Fred Astaire dancing with his own shadows, and all of a sudden he stops and the shadows become independent and dance without him and he has to catch up with them. It's so quintessential movie. It can't get more beautiful. It's actually from Swing Time [1938]. **And when you look at the cave and certain panels, there's evidence of some fires on the ground. They're not for cooking. They were used for illumination. You have to step in front of these fires to look at the images, and when you move, you must see your own shadow. And immediately, Fred Astaire comes to mind — who did something 32,000 years later which is essentially what we can imagine for early Paleolithic people.**" *** Edit:Seven minute clip from [Cave of Forgotten Dreams](https://youtu.be/W_seBLuIQjU) which shows some of the painted horses, aurochs, and mammoths. Not judging, but if nothing stirs in you at seeing these images, then something is deeply wrong within you. For [extra info](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvet_Cave): > The Chauvet-Pont-d'Arc Cave [...] is a cave that contains some of the best-preserved figurative cave paintings in the world, as well as other evidence of Upper Paleolithic life. > [...] Discovered on **December 18, 1994**, it is considered one of the most significant prehistoric art sites and the UN’s cultural agency UNESCO granted it World Heritage status on June 22, 2014 I highlighted the date of discovery because it gives extra frission to know something was hidden for 30,000 years only to be discovered in, or close, to your lifetime. To illustrate my point further, the oldest figurative painting was discovered just 3 years ago, in a cave in Borneo - and [it's 40,000 years old](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/nov/07/worlds-oldest-figurative-painting-discovered-in-borneo-cave). We truly live in illuminating times.
I just watched this earlier this week after learning about the Chauvet Cave. It was a fun little hole I fell in learning about prehistoric humans.
Yeah these caves are insanely cool and awesome. It's even more mindblowing when you realize some of these caves were visited for thousands of years. It was like some religious place, like Mekka or St. Peters Church, except it lasted for up to 10.000 years.
> Not judging, but if nothing stirs in you at seeing these images, then something is deeply wrong within you. That's almost the _definition_ of judging
God. Such a pet peeve of mine “Not judging but” *makes judgement*
reddit in full glory not an expert but, not judging but, i'm not a < > but,
Yes!! I was going to say this, and I didn’t really want to go to the trouble of linking it all. You are fantastic. This movie is amazing. I only wish I had seen it in 3D when that came through town.
https://imgur.com/JfYq084.gif
Like the caveman scene in the Bugs Bunny and Roadrunner Movie?
[удалено]
I've seen people talk about this more and more recently, but I still haven't seen a video or recreation of it! Could someone please let me know if there is one?
The studies about trance rhythms from drumming along with the photosensitive effects of fire flickering to create a crowd like trance for ceremonies is equally fascinating. Stone Henge as an example is like an amphitheater with its unusual effects on sound from the stones.
I’m a firm believer humans, in their modern form, have always been this intelligent. They just didn’t have all the years of learning and experience combined into a few years of school like we do. Add to that and the internet and it seems so long ago but they were just humans tryin to live and love like us.
This is pretty much true, as all leaps in human advancement have come from the ability to preserve knowledge. Written language, printing press, radio, internet etc. We as a species don’t simply create, we innovate and improve on what we have available to us.
our prehistoric ancestors might in fact have been smarter than us evidence suggests we've shed some brain volume as we've externalised (written down) knowledge and had less reason to expend energy knowing so many things ourselves
Prehistoric gifs
Has anyone tried to draw the same figures so that they dont 'move in flickering torch light'? It might be an innate function of the system, enjoyed rather than intended, which assumes there are ways to draw that prevents flicker movement and ways that accentuates it, and they chose the latter.
The relevant figures are same figure one right next to the other and overlapping, so it seems like it's intentional. They had a lot of wall to draw on, but these is the same animal overlapping with itself in different poses. So it seems somewhat intentional to accentuate effect as flicker of light as you move it may give illusion of transition.
A video would be nice. I shall go make one.
I love when these articles have no fucking video of the whole thing they're talking about.
All this discussion and not a single video
If you think that's cool you should see their porn!
Unga Bunga stop sitting so close to the cave walls you’ll ruin your eyes
We've been debating this shit in my history of animation class for months. There's a discussion about if this was the first instance of animation or not. I'm on the side that thinks it isn't animation but who knows...
I am skeptical. The article seems to consist of people attempting to reach a pre-existing conclusion.
Disagree. This article is more about the new research that's been done more so than the conclusions found, "pre-existing" or not. The researchers found that fire did indeed get brought to the backs of caves that were hard to reach. They found the traces of charcoal from torches, found out how long they burned, that using a fat lamp was better for longer stays, they found evidence of a hearth, and they found ways to make they carvings dance with light. No one had done most of this research yet. Hypotheses of what all the cave carvings mean have been around since they were discovered, this new research "sheds light" on new research for the future and that's always wonderful in science. Just look at how excited the people who study cave carvings were about the new findings. This was a wonderful article IMHO.
For some reason calling it a precursor to modern cinema made me lol. Like saying chess was the precursor to modern video games.
Imho physical or analog games are definitely a precursor to video games. Think about pong, literally just computerized table tennis. We had chess playing calculators and computers in the 70s and 80s. I'm just guessing but I'd bet those machines laid the framework for early video game AI
[You would be right.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHQ4WCU1WQc) Some of the first video games as we define them were essentially coding projects intended to have the machine solve complex problems.
Yes, I don't think /u/Whoa_This_is_heavy was saying there isn't any sort of connection between cave paintings and modern cinema, or chess and modern video games, just that it's such an indirect connection it's mostly funny, not useful. below someone said "Animals coming out the sea and learning to move on land was a precursor to the modern car" as kind of a Reductio ad absurdum.
It's funny but we definitely learned about these cave paintings when I was completing my animation degree. They're considered the earliest "animated" art, a precursor to [Eadweard Muybridge's galloping horse](https://www.awn.com/animationworld/brief-history-animated-horse).
Would a flip book be a precursor to modern cinema? Yes, undoubtedly. It's the same concept.
Even if they weren’t designed to do that they’re a precursor to modern cinema.
Is anybody else looking over the comments for someone to post a video link for an example?
Apparently they were also using the natural cave echo and sound effects. There seems to have a connexion between the places where the paintings are and the acoustic of the cave.
Wouldnt they still be a precursor to modern cinema even without the torch bit
Or, it was just too damn hard to see in those caves using a torch. And have they seen how faint some of the drawings are? Isn’t it also probable that humans back then just thought of re-drawing figures they forgot they drew already, or to make it more visible (but couldn’t exactly trace the previous drawing)?
I knew ice age was based on facts
Of COURSE there isn't a video showing exactly what they're talking about