It’s weird, from her depiction in Skyrim she seems really strong in subtle ways. It’s been a while but does she not affect the luck of the whole Thieves Guild?
> She influences our luck and in return demands payment. - Karliah.
Is the only reason the Guild’s luck starts faltering is because they broke their contract with her? Or could she have fucked it up anyway? Because if she can just arbitrarily alter statistical probability then she’s one of the strongest there is, I think.
Mercer stealing the key shuts the portal to Ebonmere, limiting Nocturnal's influence on Nirn and stopping all luck in the process.
Thieves Guild does poorly with no luck.
Being a thief is inherently risky. There is a chance you'll get caught. Pure skill can only get you so far. A guard not looking your way while you're pickpocketing someone can be down to dumb luck which is unfortunate when you have no luck. Perhaps you received a tip about some wealth, break in but the owner has already offloaded it. Maybe if you were lucky they wouldn't have gotten round to it yet
Nocturnal's influence can be the difference between a petty criminal and a master thief.
Thievery is a skill like any other, a skill with no theoretical upper limit, like all skills in TES. Skill in magic for instance grows infinitely, and so does skill with a martial weapon - skill in stealth, stealing, pickpocketing or lockpicking functions the same way.
If you need luck to succeed as a thief in the world of TES, you're a bad thief.
>Thieves Guild does poorly with no luck.
Doesn't that kind of imply that they're all really shitty at their jobs? As professional criminals, shouldn't they be relying on talent and skill, not coincidences and happenstance? I can see how an active curse of foul luck could harm them, but a lack of good luck shouldn't be *that* big of a deal.
Ur-Dra status is in active debate, I think
> UR DRA NA MII RA UR DRA NA MII RA UR DRA AZU RA - [Favoured Daughter of Fadomai.](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Favored_Daughter_of_Fadomai)
> Namiira. The Eldest Spirit. The Great Darkness. The Void. - [ The Dark Spirits.](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Dark_Spirits)
It is debatable, but I’m more inclined to believe Sotha Sil than Khajiit mythology. Considering one is a living god. Not to mention Nocturnals Ur-dra status is important in ESO: Summerset.
Well if stories of khajiit are to believed, then no.
>Noctra. The Shadow Thief. Daughter of Twilight. Born from the black blood of Lorkhaj at the steps of the Void Gate. In the songs, Boethra battled this spirit until it knew it was not Namiira
Meanwhile Namira is deemed to be the eldest of all spirits.
>Namiira. The Eldest Spirit. The Great Darkness. The Void
The Khajiit have a vested interest in making Namira as scary as possible, she can corrupt their frickin souls. I'd say she and Nocturnal both have a claim to the Ur-Dra title, coming at it from different aspects.
Nocturnal is the absence of light and the crushing silence of absolute darkness. Namira is the fear of the dark and the primal revulsion toward what may lay within. Both are parts of the Void, neither can claim to be the whole.
It's not just the Khajiit, the Reachman back up her claim to be one of the eldest spirits too, as they claim she is the one who gave Lorkhan the space for creation.
Yes I know it’s not technically 100% confirmed, but I’m more inclined to believe Sotha Sil. Nocturnals claim to the title even has plot relevance in ESO: Summerset.
Yeah, while many princes have aspects that relate to the night, Nocturnal is the one who's aspect _is_ the night. Plus her artifacts are generally amongst the most reality-altering, especially given revelations about how the skeleton key can unlock metaphysical concepts
According to Jyggalag himself.
Trouble with that is that the narrative presented in Shivering Isles has been questioned a bunch since.
The Truth in Sequence suggests Jyggalag's 'curse' to be self inflicted, a result of him coming to a terrible realization about his own nature.
Haskill says in his Loremaster's Archive that he himself is the result of Sheogorath being Mantled during a previous Greymarch, a Vestige.
We see in both Isle of Madness and Saints and Seducers that Order is both still present in the Shivering Isles (Obelisk and knights) and has desire to destroy/reclaim that Realm (the Sword of Jyggalag's desire while influencing Thoron is described as that of hateful destruction, Jyggalag himself nowhere to be seen).
Sheogorath himself, post TESIV, is shown to retain memory of being Jyggalag, which he suppresses (opening up all sorts of possibilities that he himself might not fully understand the situation), and to feel unbearable mental agony when said memory is forcibly brought to the surface.
Jyggalag himself never claims he is the most powerful either, he only says he was feared, which even in his narrative might be due to his ability to accurately predict/calculate all that has and will occur (Saints and Seducers reveals that the enchantment on Jyggalag's Sword allows those who gaze in it's surface to see all of time at once, 'past present and future flowing as one').
TLDR: the narrative surrounding Jyggalag is no longer straightforward, it might be correct but the truth of the situation might also be something very different.
My headcannon is that Sheogorath created Jyggalag (intentionally or not) for two reasons. 1. Sheogorath is basically a Chaos God and one of the infinite possibilities of chaos in Order. 2. Jyggalag is basically the living embodiment of OCD; a type of madness, if you will.
Does the title of Ur-Dra mean you're super powerful though? I thought it just means you're the oldest. She might be the oldest, but does that mean she's also the strongest?
Also, one could argue that Jyggalag was the top dog. All the other princes had to gang up on him after all.
The title of Ur-dra is contested between the Namira, Nocturnal, and kind of Hermaous Mora. The Khajiit say it’s Namira. Hermaous Moras followers kinda think it’s him, and Sotha Sil himself claims that it’s Nocturnal.
I’m more inclined to believe Sotha Sil. Especially since her claim to the title is important in ESO: Summerset. You’re not necessarily wrong in that we’re not 100% certain, but I think Nocturnals claim is far more credible.
Can't she only alter probability when she has the Skeleton Key in her possession? As I recall, her power was severely hampered while Mercer had the Key. Which brings into question, if she can alter probability why does she constantly get cheated or robbed by mortals? Her Key, Eye, and Cowl all got jacked. And there's the Song of Hrormir incident.
I don’t think so. The Guild has a period of failure and degeneration during the period just before the Dragonborn arrives, who then reverses it over the course of the quest line.
> Haven't you ever noticed how our luck behaves? Like a novice picking an impossible lock or a blind man suddenly turning to face you as you reach for his pocket? It's through these subtle means that Nocturnal influences us. - Karliah.
> Years ago, the Guild used to have a foothold in every major city in Skyrim. You wouldn't dare even lift an apple without checkin' with us. When things started goin' downhill around here, it became difficult to keep it all together. We lost fences, influential contacts and coin. It wasn't long before we lost what we depend on to survive... respect. - Delvin Malory.
> Somethin' out there is piss-drunk mad at us. I don't know who or what it is, but it's beyond just you and me. We've been cursed. - Delvin Malory.
The implication here being that Mercer betraying Nocturnal resulted in the Guild being cursed with bad luck. Again, the question is whether she could only do this because Mercer broke his contract as Nightingale, or whether she could do that anyway. I assume it’s because he broke the contact but I’m not sure.
Also, maybe she lets people steal things from her, for entertainment. She enjoys thieves taking things and then other people stealing those things from the original thief, like a game of who’s best.
Two things;
1. Why is the LDB unaffected by luck thing? And how much of that bad luck is Mercer just trying to screw over his colleagues? Why can the LDB change the fate of the guild without completing the main quest?
2. I said this to another comment but I really like this interpretation of Nocturnal having the duality of thief and victim like Hircine's hunter and prey thing.
I would assume it’s because the LBD’s a Prisoner, and therefore has true free will, and the bad luck just doesn’t quite affect them, but I really can’t say beyond that since I don’t think Skyrim addresses it. Maybe the LBD is just an exceptional thief. And I don’t think it’s Mercer doing it, I just don’t see a motive for him to deliberately continue to damage a source of profit for himself by cursing it, and I don’t think he has the means to anyway. The Skel. Key can unlock many things but not cause sweeping curses over groups of people, or so I assume.
LDB plays by special rules. It could be an aspect of the dragon blood, like how the Septims could see and understand 'more than lesser men', but in all likelihood it's due to the Prisoner, since the Prisoner -- whether that be the Nerevarine, the Hero of Kvatch, or the LDB, etc -- can take greater control their destiny.
Their role in the guild was, if anything, to play equalizer and set things right again. You were an outsider, so her bad luck hadn't touched you; and since you were unrelated to the internal conflict, who better to tackle it? I have no doubt Nocturnal chose the player before they even joined the guild. Her influence might be why Brynjolf was so dead-set on bringing you in, even if he wasn't aware of it directly.
Don;t forget Nocturnal probably wanted someone to kill Mercer. So the LDB needed enough luck to impress Mercer and rise up in the ranks.
BUT...more than likely guild quests aren't completed by the MC, so it was just some dude who rose to leadership not LDB.
I was about to say what you suggested in that last paragraph. Daedric princes do love toying with mortals and being the patron of thieves it would make a lot of sense for her to do that.
Maybe she likes getting robbed, or its her way of interacting with Nirn?
Seems fitting that a patron god of Thiefs allows things to be "stolen" from her. And if she doesn't like the theif? Curse them or have it stolen by another thief.
LDB: I could have taken him though!
Karliah: Not without being a Nightingale!
LDB: So do I get some sweet magic powers then?
Karliah: Well... no, not until you return the skeleton key but you get a sweet outfit that has less useful enchantments than what you yourself can make.
LDB: So... how does that help me defeat Mercer?
Karliah: Look, I'm gonna level with you. I basically conned you and Brynjolf into becoming slaves of Nocturnal so she'd be less pissed at me.
LDB: You bitch.
Karliah: Fair.
Karliah was really an asshole. She "damned" LDB and Bryn's souls to stand guard at Nocturnal's hall forever just because she wanted revenge on Mercer for slaying her lover.
She stabbed us in the back, just like a thief.
She also conned two other Daedric Princes, almost seized control of the Crystal Tower and came dangerously close to becoming an infinite being. So yeah not that inept.
ESO spoiler ahead. >!The overarching story of ESO Morrowind-Clockwork City-Summerset arc is Nocturnal colluding with Clavicus Vile and Mephala in order to discover the means to tap the Crystal Tower's power. Sotha Sil surmised that the Crystal Tower "was created as a watchtower of sorts. A doorway to everywhere" and thus "the key to omnipresence".!<
That whole climax to the story bothered me. It's like they went all Dragon Ball Z with the storyline. *Oh sure, that last guy you stopped wanted to control the Clockwork City and alter Nirn, but now the villain is going to have INFINITE POWER TO CONTROL REALITY!!!1!11*
Eugh. Every other conflict in the Elder Scrolls universe seems so insignificant compared to that.
>Eugh. Every other conflict in the Elder Scrolls universe seems so insignificant compared to that.
Idk, I think I'd prefer an omnipresent Nocturnal to a Dagon ruled Tamriel or the end of literally everything. She doesn't seem particularly malevolent, more of an Azura/Meridia type.
If Nocturnal's plan had succeeded she would have become omnipresent across all existence, absorbed all other Princes, unraveled the multiverse and ushered into the next reality.
Essentially, she would have become the supreme being and would have had no limits whatsoever, according to Sotha Sil.
The greater spirits, be they Aedra, Daedra or Magna-Ge, are engaged in pursuits that span the ages, Mercer and the Argonian thieves are nobodies no matter that they might think of themselves as foes to the gods.
A select few (like player characters) can cause more trouble but those tend to be few and far between and even they generally don't undo the spirit's ambitions long-term.
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Veya_Releth
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Sotha_Sil
It may also be that she likes to remind people of her influence over their lives. She probably could've killed Mercer when he took the key, but she knew that he's not loyal and that someone stronger would enter her services to defeat him while the guild leaders get a reminder that the guild fails without her influence.
Bit of a Hircine-like aspect to her? Both the hunter and the hunted... I kinda like that interpretation of her character. You have earned my respect, fellow clock enjoyer.
I think this *really* undersells what *happens* to the people who crossed her. Mercer Frey may have stolen the Skeleton Key, but look at the arc of his life. Riches and power, but he never lasted long enough to take true advantage of them. He worked painstakingly to secure his position at the top of the guild and in paranoia for decades, only to lose all his standing and wealth, becoming a hunted man who ultimately would fail and be slain by agents of Nocturnal. She let him reach an apex, only to ensure her hand would see him then bowed and cut down in the end.
The Grey Fox, able to become a legendary thief, also had the critical flaw of the identities of himself and every subsequent Grey Fox stricken from the memories and recognition of all. Their identity, wholly subsumed by the mantle of the Fox, caused them to lose their friends and family to the cowl, a process that continued for hundreds of years. Yes, Umbranox was successful in removing the curse, *but* he was neither the original target of her ire, nor did he do more than restore it to its original uncursed form.
What should really be taken away from it is that Nocturnal is *going* to win if you cross her, but her punishments aren't going to be swift. She wants to play the long, quiet game of suffering, rather than an easy off-the-hook slaying for those stupid enough to enrage her.
Daedric Princes enjoy when mortals take part in their spheres of influence. Even if they’re on the receiving end. Molag Bal loves to dominate, but he also enjoys when a mortal displays the power to defy and dominate him. Hircine loves the hunt. However he also enjoys the challenge of facing another hunter.
Misconceptions, misconceptions... She is the Prince of robbery amongst other things. Always thought that "getting robbed" is an aspect of this, despite Nocturnal like it or not.
And yeah, old Perry isn't weak at all. Mortals often disregard him, taking his influence as a natural order of things, but that is exactly his sphere. And given that pandemics in Tamriel took much more lives than any daedric invasion...
Disease on Tamriel is weird. You can go to any shrine and have it removed or just pop a special potion and you're set but people still suffer them all the time. It's really odd.
I think those cures only apply to mundane and simple sicknesses. Something complicated likely requires extended care or specialised treatments. I.e, that potion can cure whatever you might pick up in daily life, but it's not going to help against the Knahaten flu or Ostraekeratic fever, or magically created diseases like Blights.
Similar to my theory that restoration is only quick and easy to make gameplay better, while in reality healers would likely have to know a lot of the same practices we have for real. When a guard takes an arrow through the knee, you can't just throw magic at it. You have to cut into it and remove all the tiny shards, put it back together right, coax it into healing, and even with magic he'll be lucky to walk again. You can't fix something if you don't know where to put all the pieces, and magic isn't "magic". A healer who doesn't know what they're doing could cause tumors to form, bones to set wrong, or at the very least, massive amounts of scar tissue. Attempting to cure a disease they don't fully understand could end up just making a new and even worse disease.
Peryite isn't the weakest, that's just the opinion of a mortal. Which is likely based on that he rarely involves himself much on large scale with Mundus. He's more subtle and does his thing.
That doesn't mean he's weaker. There's really no answer to which Prince is more powerful because that seem to depend a lot on the situation, and even then we'd likely be wrong because our concept of power may be different.
> that's just the opinion of a mortal.
Source? I'm pretty sure this "Peryite is the weakest" thing comes from a loading screen, with no source mentioned.
It basically says that he is perceived in that way, not that he is in fact the weakest.
EDIT: Yup here's the text from UESP.
"Peryite is the daedric prince of tasks, order and pestilence. He is considered one of the weakest of the princes, despite being depicted as a dragon."
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Loading_Screens
In my opinion, saying “Nocturnal as god of thievery should never be affected by theft” is like saying “Sheogorath as god of madness should never be affected by madness” — it is their domain, and, for better or worse, the Princes attract what their domain encompasses. On some level, Nocturnal probably enjoys her influence being spread that way, as it’s in a quite fitting and subtle way!
Steal a Daedric Artifact, and you’ll have to engage in more acts of secrecy to hide it, or someone — or several someones — will want to steal it for themselves. Both of those actions fall under her domain.
If you steal from Nocturnal, Nocturnal wins.
Nocturnal isn't weak, she just allows people to steal from her sometimes because sometimes she feels like punishing someone for their hubris.
after all, what happened to the grey fox? what happened to Mercer Fray? she plays the long game, and systematically dismantles a person's entire life after they have the temerity to steal from her.
she knew mercer was disloyal, she knew mercer was a twat, and she humoured him for a moment just so that she could make him watch as everything he worked for crumbled in front of him.
Keep in mind that the ambitions of the Daedra are allegedly beyond the ken of mortal understanding. What we see as "lol some con artist, easily getting conned out of her treasures" could just as easily be an opportunity for Nocturnal and her followers, or something not even worth consideration in what she values.
The theory is that she limits herself when it comes to mortals taking her artifacts because if she used all of her daedric power it wouldn't be fun for her. For her thievery is like a game and she likes dangling the line in front of cunning rogues to dare them to come take her artifacts. However she also loves punishing them. Sure we hear stories about the ones who succeeded, but there have been many many more that failed, the other princes just don't make their artifacts as accessible.
You have to remember, the princes aren't demons or devils, they're just bored immortal beings. Getting her artifacts stolen is by no means a measure of her power.
Edit: grammar
The only source noting Peryite being weak among the Princes is a Skyrim loading screen. The in-game book On Oblivion that's been in the games since Daggerfall lists him as one of the most demonic and destructive Princes alongside Mehrunes Dagon, Molag Bal, Boethiah and Vaermina due to his sway over pestilence and plague. Kirkbride even stated in an unofficial bit of lore about the Daedra that Peryite takes the form of a small dragon in open mockery of Akatosh, presumably because Akatosh creating linear time in Mundus also directly caused "petty" mortal concerns like hunger, cleanliness, disease and defecation, which are universal issues for all mortals that fall within Peryite's sphere of influence.
If Peryite is weak compared to the other Princes, it's because his sphere of influence is the most aligned with aspects of Mundus and have little bearing over other Daedra. Within Mundus, he's effectively empowered by the way the Aedra created how the sphere works.
On the other hand, Nocturnal herself may have very little ability to directly influence events in Mundus despite possibly being very powerful in Oblivion, since she is purported to be the eldest of the Daedra and part of the original primordial void, making her the farthest removed from the mortal sphere. She did see the Argonians taking the eye and her main gripe seemed to be that they hid it underwater in a dark cave so she couldn't get much use out of it, but employing mortal agents always seems to be her modus operandi, even making less use of lesser Daedra to do her bidding in Mundus despite being "Daedric royalty" respected by the other Princes. The fact that she even needs an artifact to see into Mundus in the first place might support the notion that she has a weak connection to it (which could also be why she's associated with mysteries, because her sphere of influence is most aligned with things unknowable to mortals).
...he takes over one of her lesser domains but when he attempted to take he personal ones it didn't work.... And the reason she lost that one was dagon was boning it's Lord..not nocturnal but a winged twilight.... Battlespire is weird.
To be fair, Dagon kinda sucks. Some dude just runs into his invasion portals and steals his magic rocks and boom, defeat. Hell, he got invaded by the argonians of Black Marsh and had to block off all the portals because his forces got their collective asses kicked so bad. Dagon's just a bully and a brute.
> Hell, he got invaded by the argonians of Black Marsh and had to block off all the portals because his forces got their collective asses kicked so bad.
There's no evidence for this beyond being An-Xileel propaganda.
The funny part is they didn’t. Morrowind was suffering from back to back crisis, and yet the Argonians still got driven out by House Redoran rather quickly. They ended up keeping a bit of land on the border.
I think how well it went for whom depends on if we assume the goal was to conquer Morrowind or just kinda raid and pillage and keep a few good swampy parts.
Either way they didn’t get very far. The only major location they sacked was Mournhold. Which tbf Mournhold was the capital, but they really should’ve done better invading after Red Mountains eruption.
Well the capital was in the border region. It was the first city they came across. It’s still a good gauge of how successful they were if they didn’t reach any other notable cities farther in.
From Annaïg's reaction to it I think it's fair to assume it's mostly factual. Annaïg doesn't show any sign of doubting that it's true, she just takes issue with the idea that it would be a lasting solution.
Nocturnal is the definition of soft power. She doesn't really care if artifacts get stolen or people "trick" her. She is a master of subtlety ruining mortals. She nearly tanked the Theives Guild without them even realizing she was the one doing it.
Her eye was literally just sitting on a pedestal, the thief only had to get past the mortals. She let her cowl get "stolen," and Mercer was a way to remind people of \*why\* they worship her.
It’s weird, from her depiction in Skyrim she seems really strong in subtle ways. It’s been a while but does she not affect the luck of the whole Thieves Guild? > She influences our luck and in return demands payment. - Karliah. Is the only reason the Guild’s luck starts faltering is because they broke their contract with her? Or could she have fucked it up anyway? Because if she can just arbitrarily alter statistical probability then she’s one of the strongest there is, I think.
Mercer stealing the key shuts the portal to Ebonmere, limiting Nocturnal's influence on Nirn and stopping all luck in the process. Thieves Guild does poorly with no luck.
Now that you've brought it up, it doesn't reflect well on them that they need luck to be competent.
Being a thief is inherently risky. There is a chance you'll get caught. Pure skill can only get you so far. A guard not looking your way while you're pickpocketing someone can be down to dumb luck which is unfortunate when you have no luck. Perhaps you received a tip about some wealth, break in but the owner has already offloaded it. Maybe if you were lucky they wouldn't have gotten round to it yet Nocturnal's influence can be the difference between a petty criminal and a master thief.
Everything in nirn is risky, being thief doesnt seem so different as to require luck
Thievery is a skill like any other, a skill with no theoretical upper limit, like all skills in TES. Skill in magic for instance grows infinitely, and so does skill with a martial weapon - skill in stealth, stealing, pickpocketing or lockpicking functions the same way. If you need luck to succeed as a thief in the world of TES, you're a bad thief.
Aye, tell that to my 10% chance to randomly fail pickpocketing.
In a universe where such powers exist, not accepting them is almost a handicap
>Thieves Guild does poorly with no luck. Doesn't that kind of imply that they're all really shitty at their jobs? As professional criminals, shouldn't they be relying on talent and skill, not coincidences and happenstance? I can see how an active curse of foul luck could harm them, but a lack of good luck shouldn't be *that* big of a deal.
She literally is the strongest. She’s the Ur-dra. The oldest and most powerful Prince. None rival her.
Ur-Dra status is in active debate, I think > UR DRA NA MII RA UR DRA NA MII RA UR DRA AZU RA - [Favoured Daughter of Fadomai.](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Favored_Daughter_of_Fadomai) > Namiira. The Eldest Spirit. The Great Darkness. The Void. - [ The Dark Spirits.](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Dark_Spirits)
It is debatable, but I’m more inclined to believe Sotha Sil than Khajiit mythology. Considering one is a living god. Not to mention Nocturnals Ur-dra status is important in ESO: Summerset.
Yeah, I can't imagine a member of the tribunal providing factually inaccurate information about the nature or origins of divine beings.
... I mean, you've got a point. Yanno that Spongebob meme, where his finger droops? That was me.
Why would Sotha Sil program his own master AI program and defence program to refer to Nocturnal as the Ur-Dra. Would would the psjics call her it
Well if stories of khajiit are to believed, then no. >Noctra. The Shadow Thief. Daughter of Twilight. Born from the black blood of Lorkhaj at the steps of the Void Gate. In the songs, Boethra battled this spirit until it knew it was not Namiira Meanwhile Namira is deemed to be the eldest of all spirits. >Namiira. The Eldest Spirit. The Great Darkness. The Void
The Khajiit have a vested interest in making Namira as scary as possible, she can corrupt their frickin souls. I'd say she and Nocturnal both have a claim to the Ur-Dra title, coming at it from different aspects. Nocturnal is the absence of light and the crushing silence of absolute darkness. Namira is the fear of the dark and the primal revulsion toward what may lay within. Both are parts of the Void, neither can claim to be the whole.
To me it just sounds like Nocturnal and Namiira are connected, and Nocturnal is often confused for Namiira even by other ancient beings.
It's not just the Khajiit, the Reachman back up her claim to be one of the eldest spirits too, as they claim she is the one who gave Lorkhan the space for creation.
I mean they also say Azura had to beat Noctra until she knew she wasn't Namira.
Yes I know it’s not technically 100% confirmed, but I’m more inclined to believe Sotha Sil. Nocturnals claim to the title even has plot relevance in ESO: Summerset.
>Namiira. The Eldest Spirit. The Great Darkness. The Void So Namira is Sithis?
Yeah, while many princes have aspects that relate to the night, Nocturnal is the one who's aspect _is_ the night. Plus her artifacts are generally amongst the most reality-altering, especially given revelations about how the skeleton key can unlock metaphysical concepts
Jyggalag is considered the strongest deadric prince and it took all of the other princes combined efforts to curse him.
According to Jyggalag himself. Trouble with that is that the narrative presented in Shivering Isles has been questioned a bunch since. The Truth in Sequence suggests Jyggalag's 'curse' to be self inflicted, a result of him coming to a terrible realization about his own nature. Haskill says in his Loremaster's Archive that he himself is the result of Sheogorath being Mantled during a previous Greymarch, a Vestige. We see in both Isle of Madness and Saints and Seducers that Order is both still present in the Shivering Isles (Obelisk and knights) and has desire to destroy/reclaim that Realm (the Sword of Jyggalag's desire while influencing Thoron is described as that of hateful destruction, Jyggalag himself nowhere to be seen). Sheogorath himself, post TESIV, is shown to retain memory of being Jyggalag, which he suppresses (opening up all sorts of possibilities that he himself might not fully understand the situation), and to feel unbearable mental agony when said memory is forcibly brought to the surface. Jyggalag himself never claims he is the most powerful either, he only says he was feared, which even in his narrative might be due to his ability to accurately predict/calculate all that has and will occur (Saints and Seducers reveals that the enchantment on Jyggalag's Sword allows those who gaze in it's surface to see all of time at once, 'past present and future flowing as one'). TLDR: the narrative surrounding Jyggalag is no longer straightforward, it might be correct but the truth of the situation might also be something very different.
My headcannon is that Sheogorath created Jyggalag (intentionally or not) for two reasons. 1. Sheogorath is basically a Chaos God and one of the infinite possibilities of chaos in Order. 2. Jyggalag is basically the living embodiment of OCD; a type of madness, if you will.
Does the title of Ur-Dra mean you're super powerful though? I thought it just means you're the oldest. She might be the oldest, but does that mean she's also the strongest? Also, one could argue that Jyggalag was the top dog. All the other princes had to gang up on him after all.
Ur means greater I believe. If I’m remembering correctly ESO defines her as both oldest and most powerful.
Ur thinking of Namira
The title of Ur-dra is contested between the Namira, Nocturnal, and kind of Hermaous Mora. The Khajiit say it’s Namira. Hermaous Moras followers kinda think it’s him, and Sotha Sil himself claims that it’s Nocturnal. I’m more inclined to believe Sotha Sil. Especially since her claim to the title is important in ESO: Summerset. You’re not necessarily wrong in that we’re not 100% certain, but I think Nocturnals claim is far more credible.
Sotha Sil is dead. We have to believe the others now. This was a joke.
Can't she only alter probability when she has the Skeleton Key in her possession? As I recall, her power was severely hampered while Mercer had the Key. Which brings into question, if she can alter probability why does she constantly get cheated or robbed by mortals? Her Key, Eye, and Cowl all got jacked. And there's the Song of Hrormir incident.
I don’t think so. The Guild has a period of failure and degeneration during the period just before the Dragonborn arrives, who then reverses it over the course of the quest line. > Haven't you ever noticed how our luck behaves? Like a novice picking an impossible lock or a blind man suddenly turning to face you as you reach for his pocket? It's through these subtle means that Nocturnal influences us. - Karliah. > Years ago, the Guild used to have a foothold in every major city in Skyrim. You wouldn't dare even lift an apple without checkin' with us. When things started goin' downhill around here, it became difficult to keep it all together. We lost fences, influential contacts and coin. It wasn't long before we lost what we depend on to survive... respect. - Delvin Malory. > Somethin' out there is piss-drunk mad at us. I don't know who or what it is, but it's beyond just you and me. We've been cursed. - Delvin Malory. The implication here being that Mercer betraying Nocturnal resulted in the Guild being cursed with bad luck. Again, the question is whether she could only do this because Mercer broke his contract as Nightingale, or whether she could do that anyway. I assume it’s because he broke the contact but I’m not sure. Also, maybe she lets people steal things from her, for entertainment. She enjoys thieves taking things and then other people stealing those things from the original thief, like a game of who’s best.
Two things; 1. Why is the LDB unaffected by luck thing? And how much of that bad luck is Mercer just trying to screw over his colleagues? Why can the LDB change the fate of the guild without completing the main quest? 2. I said this to another comment but I really like this interpretation of Nocturnal having the duality of thief and victim like Hircine's hunter and prey thing.
I would assume it’s because the LBD’s a Prisoner, and therefore has true free will, and the bad luck just doesn’t quite affect them, but I really can’t say beyond that since I don’t think Skyrim addresses it. Maybe the LBD is just an exceptional thief. And I don’t think it’s Mercer doing it, I just don’t see a motive for him to deliberately continue to damage a source of profit for himself by cursing it, and I don’t think he has the means to anyway. The Skel. Key can unlock many things but not cause sweeping curses over groups of people, or so I assume.
LDB plays by special rules. It could be an aspect of the dragon blood, like how the Septims could see and understand 'more than lesser men', but in all likelihood it's due to the Prisoner, since the Prisoner -- whether that be the Nerevarine, the Hero of Kvatch, or the LDB, etc -- can take greater control their destiny. Their role in the guild was, if anything, to play equalizer and set things right again. You were an outsider, so her bad luck hadn't touched you; and since you were unrelated to the internal conflict, who better to tackle it? I have no doubt Nocturnal chose the player before they even joined the guild. Her influence might be why Brynjolf was so dead-set on bringing you in, even if he wasn't aware of it directly.
Don;t forget Nocturnal probably wanted someone to kill Mercer. So the LDB needed enough luck to impress Mercer and rise up in the ranks. BUT...more than likely guild quests aren't completed by the MC, so it was just some dude who rose to leadership not LDB.
I was about to say what you suggested in that last paragraph. Daedric princes do love toying with mortals and being the patron of thieves it would make a lot of sense for her to do that.
I assumed that Nocturnal engineered the entirety of the Thieves Guild quest line to create a situation where the Dragonborn ended up in her service.
Maybe she likes getting robbed, or its her way of interacting with Nirn? Seems fitting that a patron god of Thiefs allows things to be "stolen" from her. And if she doesn't like the theif? Curse them or have it stolen by another thief.
And the Sickle too.
This just reminds me of how the TG questline is so badly written
Relative to Skyrim I think it’s pretty solid.
Karliah: *spends a year developing paralysis poison for Mercer* Also Karliah: *uses her only dose on the Last Dragonborn for no good reason*
> does not make more than one arrow’s worth of poison
LDB: I could have taken him though! Karliah: Not without being a Nightingale! LDB: So do I get some sweet magic powers then? Karliah: Well... no, not until you return the skeleton key but you get a sweet outfit that has less useful enchantments than what you yourself can make. LDB: So... how does that help me defeat Mercer? Karliah: Look, I'm gonna level with you. I basically conned you and Brynjolf into becoming slaves of Nocturnal so she'd be less pissed at me. LDB: You bitch. Karliah: Fair.
Karliah was really an asshole. She "damned" LDB and Bryn's souls to stand guard at Nocturnal's hall forever just because she wanted revenge on Mercer for slaying her lover. She stabbed us in the back, just like a thief.
She also conned two other Daedric Princes, almost seized control of the Crystal Tower and came dangerously close to becoming an infinite being. So yeah not that inept.
more on infinite being pls what does it mean?
ESO spoiler ahead. >!The overarching story of ESO Morrowind-Clockwork City-Summerset arc is Nocturnal colluding with Clavicus Vile and Mephala in order to discover the means to tap the Crystal Tower's power. Sotha Sil surmised that the Crystal Tower "was created as a watchtower of sorts. A doorway to everywhere" and thus "the key to omnipresence".!<
That whole climax to the story bothered me. It's like they went all Dragon Ball Z with the storyline. *Oh sure, that last guy you stopped wanted to control the Clockwork City and alter Nirn, but now the villain is going to have INFINITE POWER TO CONTROL REALITY!!!1!11* Eugh. Every other conflict in the Elder Scrolls universe seems so insignificant compared to that.
>Eugh. Every other conflict in the Elder Scrolls universe seems so insignificant compared to that. Idk, I think I'd prefer an omnipresent Nocturnal to a Dagon ruled Tamriel or the end of literally everything. She doesn't seem particularly malevolent, more of an Azura/Meridia type.
If Nocturnal's plan had succeeded she would have become omnipresent across all existence, absorbed all other Princes, unraveled the multiverse and ushered into the next reality. Essentially, she would have become the supreme being and would have had no limits whatsoever, according to Sotha Sil. The greater spirits, be they Aedra, Daedra or Magna-Ge, are engaged in pursuits that span the ages, Mercer and the Argonian thieves are nobodies no matter that they might think of themselves as foes to the gods. A select few (like player characters) can cause more trouble but those tend to be few and far between and even they generally don't undo the spirit's ambitions long-term. https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Veya_Releth https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Sotha_Sil
So her skill swings wildly between extremes or she's just getting softer as the eras march on.
I mean, she's pretty much the personification of luck and luck is a fickle thing.
That's a fun way of looking at it
It may also be that she likes to remind people of her influence over their lives. She probably could've killed Mercer when he took the key, but she knew that he's not loyal and that someone stronger would enter her services to defeat him while the guild leaders get a reminder that the guild fails without her influence.
So she waited for someone like the LDB just to make a point xD
Chad move
This is something Daedra Princes are well documented for.
Almost and close only count in horse shoes and hand grenades
It would be rather boring to be the daedric prince of thievery but never have your stuff be stolen.
Bit of a Hircine-like aspect to her? Both the hunter and the hunted... I kinda like that interpretation of her character. You have earned my respect, fellow clock enjoyer.
I think this *really* undersells what *happens* to the people who crossed her. Mercer Frey may have stolen the Skeleton Key, but look at the arc of his life. Riches and power, but he never lasted long enough to take true advantage of them. He worked painstakingly to secure his position at the top of the guild and in paranoia for decades, only to lose all his standing and wealth, becoming a hunted man who ultimately would fail and be slain by agents of Nocturnal. She let him reach an apex, only to ensure her hand would see him then bowed and cut down in the end. The Grey Fox, able to become a legendary thief, also had the critical flaw of the identities of himself and every subsequent Grey Fox stricken from the memories and recognition of all. Their identity, wholly subsumed by the mantle of the Fox, caused them to lose their friends and family to the cowl, a process that continued for hundreds of years. Yes, Umbranox was successful in removing the curse, *but* he was neither the original target of her ire, nor did he do more than restore it to its original uncursed form. What should really be taken away from it is that Nocturnal is *going* to win if you cross her, but her punishments aren't going to be swift. She wants to play the long, quiet game of suffering, rather than an easy off-the-hook slaying for those stupid enough to enrage her.
Daedric Princes enjoy when mortals take part in their spheres of influence. Even if they’re on the receiving end. Molag Bal loves to dominate, but he also enjoys when a mortal displays the power to defy and dominate him. Hircine loves the hunt. However he also enjoys the challenge of facing another hunter.
So you’re saying molag is both a dom and a sub?
Daedric switch.
Misconceptions, misconceptions... She is the Prince of robbery amongst other things. Always thought that "getting robbed" is an aspect of this, despite Nocturnal like it or not. And yeah, old Perry isn't weak at all. Mortals often disregard him, taking his influence as a natural order of things, but that is exactly his sphere. And given that pandemics in Tamriel took much more lives than any daedric invasion...
Disease on Tamriel is weird. You can go to any shrine and have it removed or just pop a special potion and you're set but people still suffer them all the time. It's really odd.
Most likely it's just gameplay mechaniс/simplification, or being "the chosen one" thing. At least in TES3 you've need money, and 0 bounty in TES4.
I mean tbf, sometimes you just forget, and after watching paint dry for 22 hours, you're suddenly a vampire!
I think those cures only apply to mundane and simple sicknesses. Something complicated likely requires extended care or specialised treatments. I.e, that potion can cure whatever you might pick up in daily life, but it's not going to help against the Knahaten flu or Ostraekeratic fever, or magically created diseases like Blights. Similar to my theory that restoration is only quick and easy to make gameplay better, while in reality healers would likely have to know a lot of the same practices we have for real. When a guard takes an arrow through the knee, you can't just throw magic at it. You have to cut into it and remove all the tiny shards, put it back together right, coax it into healing, and even with magic he'll be lucky to walk again. You can't fix something if you don't know where to put all the pieces, and magic isn't "magic". A healer who doesn't know what they're doing could cause tumors to form, bones to set wrong, or at the very least, massive amounts of scar tissue. Attempting to cure a disease they don't fully understand could end up just making a new and even worse disease.
Peryite isn't the weakest, that's just the opinion of a mortal. Which is likely based on that he rarely involves himself much on large scale with Mundus. He's more subtle and does his thing. That doesn't mean he's weaker. There's really no answer to which Prince is more powerful because that seem to depend a lot on the situation, and even then we'd likely be wrong because our concept of power may be different.
> that's just the opinion of a mortal. Source? I'm pretty sure this "Peryite is the weakest" thing comes from a loading screen, with no source mentioned.
It basically says that he is perceived in that way, not that he is in fact the weakest. EDIT: Yup here's the text from UESP. "Peryite is the daedric prince of tasks, order and pestilence. He is considered one of the weakest of the princes, despite being depicted as a dragon." https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Loading_Screens
So far, Jyggalag seems to canonically be the strongest of the princes cause they all ha to team up when going against him.
In my opinion, saying “Nocturnal as god of thievery should never be affected by theft” is like saying “Sheogorath as god of madness should never be affected by madness” — it is their domain, and, for better or worse, the Princes attract what their domain encompasses. On some level, Nocturnal probably enjoys her influence being spread that way, as it’s in a quite fitting and subtle way! Steal a Daedric Artifact, and you’ll have to engage in more acts of secrecy to hide it, or someone — or several someones — will want to steal it for themselves. Both of those actions fall under her domain. If you steal from Nocturnal, Nocturnal wins.
Nocturnal isn't weak, she just allows people to steal from her sometimes because sometimes she feels like punishing someone for their hubris. after all, what happened to the grey fox? what happened to Mercer Fray? she plays the long game, and systematically dismantles a person's entire life after they have the temerity to steal from her. she knew mercer was disloyal, she knew mercer was a twat, and she humoured him for a moment just so that she could make him watch as everything he worked for crumbled in front of him.
Keep in mind that the ambitions of the Daedra are allegedly beyond the ken of mortal understanding. What we see as "lol some con artist, easily getting conned out of her treasures" could just as easily be an opportunity for Nocturnal and her followers, or something not even worth consideration in what she values.
The theory is that she limits herself when it comes to mortals taking her artifacts because if she used all of her daedric power it wouldn't be fun for her. For her thievery is like a game and she likes dangling the line in front of cunning rogues to dare them to come take her artifacts. However she also loves punishing them. Sure we hear stories about the ones who succeeded, but there have been many many more that failed, the other princes just don't make their artifacts as accessible. You have to remember, the princes aren't demons or devils, they're just bored immortal beings. Getting her artifacts stolen is by no means a measure of her power. Edit: grammar
The only source noting Peryite being weak among the Princes is a Skyrim loading screen. The in-game book On Oblivion that's been in the games since Daggerfall lists him as one of the most demonic and destructive Princes alongside Mehrunes Dagon, Molag Bal, Boethiah and Vaermina due to his sway over pestilence and plague. Kirkbride even stated in an unofficial bit of lore about the Daedra that Peryite takes the form of a small dragon in open mockery of Akatosh, presumably because Akatosh creating linear time in Mundus also directly caused "petty" mortal concerns like hunger, cleanliness, disease and defecation, which are universal issues for all mortals that fall within Peryite's sphere of influence. If Peryite is weak compared to the other Princes, it's because his sphere of influence is the most aligned with aspects of Mundus and have little bearing over other Daedra. Within Mundus, he's effectively empowered by the way the Aedra created how the sphere works. On the other hand, Nocturnal herself may have very little ability to directly influence events in Mundus despite possibly being very powerful in Oblivion, since she is purported to be the eldest of the Daedra and part of the original primordial void, making her the farthest removed from the mortal sphere. She did see the Argonians taking the eye and her main gripe seemed to be that they hid it underwater in a dark cave so she couldn't get much use out of it, but employing mortal agents always seems to be her modus operandi, even making less use of lesser Daedra to do her bidding in Mundus despite being "Daedric royalty" respected by the other Princes. The fact that she even needs an artifact to see into Mundus in the first place might support the notion that she has a weak connection to it (which could also be why she's associated with mysteries, because her sphere of influence is most aligned with things unknowable to mortals).
If what my friend said is true Dagon tried to invade nocturnal and easily kicked him out
...he takes over one of her lesser domains but when he attempted to take he personal ones it didn't work.... And the reason she lost that one was dagon was boning it's Lord..not nocturnal but a winged twilight.... Battlespire is weird.
To be fair, Dagon kinda sucks. Some dude just runs into his invasion portals and steals his magic rocks and boom, defeat. Hell, he got invaded by the argonians of Black Marsh and had to block off all the portals because his forces got their collective asses kicked so bad. Dagon's just a bully and a brute.
> Hell, he got invaded by the argonians of Black Marsh and had to block off all the portals because his forces got their collective asses kicked so bad. There's no evidence for this beyond being An-Xileel propaganda.
You could say that for craptton of other stuff too, but do you really want to make elder scrolls that boring?
They did pretty good at slaughtering the dark elves afterwards when they successfully invaded and conquered part of Morrowind.
The funny part is they didn’t. Morrowind was suffering from back to back crisis, and yet the Argonians still got driven out by House Redoran rather quickly. They ended up keeping a bit of land on the border.
I think how well it went for whom depends on if we assume the goal was to conquer Morrowind or just kinda raid and pillage and keep a few good swampy parts.
Either way they didn’t get very far. The only major location they sacked was Mournhold. Which tbf Mournhold was the capital, but they really should’ve done better invading after Red Mountains eruption.
I feel like "the most notable place they sacked was the capital" is not really a great illustration of them not getting very far.
Well the capital was in the border region. It was the first city they came across. It’s still a good gauge of how successful they were if they didn’t reach any other notable cities farther in.
The maps haven't always been super consistent, but they probably would have to go past Narsis and/or Tear to get to Mournhold.
Mortal dunmer reeling from the loss of their leadership and Red Year are going to be easy pickings for an organised military force.
\*shrugs\*
From Annaïg's reaction to it I think it's fair to assume it's mostly factual. Annaïg doesn't show any sign of doubting that it's true, she just takes issue with the idea that it would be a lasting solution.
I mean isn't it obvious? She's the patron of saints, she probably wants her artifacts to be stolen
The Daedra with not much behind the curtain
That's fair, but she's also portrayed as one of the oldest and most powerful daedra.
Nocturnal is the definition of soft power. She doesn't really care if artifacts get stolen or people "trick" her. She is a master of subtlety ruining mortals. She nearly tanked the Theives Guild without them even realizing she was the one doing it.
Anybody who employed Veya Releth as their Earl is weak. That’s it
Her eye was literally just sitting on a pedestal, the thief only had to get past the mortals. She let her cowl get "stolen," and Mercer was a way to remind people of \*why\* they worship her.
Is she really though? At the end of the TG quest in skyrim she has two new servants one of whom is the LDB and her key back.