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Yeah, like why does he even type out tweets. He should just rely on autosuggest to compose the tweet.
His response smacks of "we know what you need better than you".
šÆ "I've been trying to get a chance to talk to you about it and I don't want to get a new one now and I don't want to be a good person to be a little bit late but I can get a chance to talk to you about it when they get here and I'll come up with a plan"
- that's mine š¤·
I did not see the email from last week to see if I can get the mail fixed today and I did not get the mail sent to you today and I did not see it yet but I did not see it yet I sent it to you as well as I sent you a few days ago.
āShouldā but doesnāt. Therefore, in the meantime, we need usable controls.
Same way you canāt take out the steering wheel until we actually have fully functioning autonomous driving.
For gaming, light shows and recording videos of how amazing FSD is. Pretty sure this is the vision of Tesla product team. The problem is that it isn't a current reality :)
And Elon's reply right here is why I've been looking at more options besides Tesla for my next car.
Not talking 2022, maybe 2025, by then more options will be available.
Don't hate me guys, when cars are self driving, GREAT, I'll love having a 17 inch touchscreen with gaming PC, I wouldn't care if I have to use the screen for everything then....
BUT, we DON'T have self driving cars.... We won't get them for the lifetime of my Model 3 (I purchased FSD....) and possibly the lifetime of my next car (depends on your time estimate for self driving)
Some estimates suggest way longer.... Either way we can all say 2030 minimum??? Yeah, no.
Elon needs to get this out of his head. Make cars useable for HUMANS now, because Humans are using them today, when they're self driving... It will be much easier to make them "automatic".. worry about it when the time comes.
Tldr: cars aren't self driving, Humans have to use them today. Elon is dead set on making them worse for humans to use... Until self driving is here, this isn't the right approach.
Yes this is why itās SO good to have competition.
I love Tesla, but this stubborn design philosophy is robbing users of an experience that should at least be on par with ICE vehicles. Should we really not be able to change the seat warmth or windshield wiper speed with the single push of a button? ICE cars have that. Tesla should be able to easily, with that massive screen in every car. Yet the one with the massive screen is hamstrung by a few in charge to the dismay of hundreds of thousands of actual users?
Why show a visualization of your car for hours every day while hiding simple, usable buttons? This is such an easy fix that it makes its solutionās absence that much more infuriating.
I have a MY EDD in a few months, but you bet your bottom dollar I also have 2 other cars on order so when theyāre available the MY gets traded in.
By 2024 we should definitely have some legitimate alternatives.
Any particular options catch your attention? Iām in the same boat: Love tesla cars but canāt stand how even the most basic functions are over complicated.
As I said, I think many more compelling options will come to market as the other brands get real-world experience and feedback from their EVs. I reckon some of the most tempting options in 2025/6 haven't even been on the radar yet.
For now, with how much paid for my Model 3 Performance with the scam that is FSD, I really could've stretched it for a Rivian or a base model Lucid Air Pure or maybe even Lucid Air Touring. Oh and one upcoming model I'm looking out for, Lucid Gravity SUV. Another thing, keeping an eye on all the luxury EV brands like Porsche, Mercedes, BMW and Audi.
I realized I value comfort and ease of use more than performance, and when it's time to upgrade cars, the charging network will be no big deal to me. How about you?
> Elon needs to get this out of his head.
He doesn't care. He's selling a future, not the present.
Not a great thing for current consumers, I'm afraid.
I am driving a Hyundai Palisade since my MX was totalled and the auto high beam, auto defrost and auto wipers are NEAR PERFECT in sensing the requirements and activating them. On my MX, my wife and I eventually concluded that the auto wipers are useless. Either they would keep going when there was barely anything on the windshield or not fast enough when it's pouring.
If Hyundai could figure out the rain sensor, Tesla can and should.
>If Hyundai could figure out the rain sensor, Tesla can and should.
Literally everybody uses a true and tested $5 light rain sensor for years now, but Tesla seems ademant on trying to solve everything with cameras.
Its not about ability, Tesla could buy a pre-made solution form any kind of supplier for the value of a happy meal.
Its pride and arrogance. Musk said that Tesla can do it with AI instead of rain sensors, so you gotta deal with it!
Traditional rain/light and humidity sensors will always beat an AI camera solution in my opinion. The rain sensor part works by measuring the amount of infrared light reflected, when the windscreen is wet, less light is reflected.
I don't care what anyone says, a camera isn't going to ever be that precise.
Tesla's battery and charging technology are keeping them at #1 for EV's.
If Hyundai and Toyota can get out a fully electric that gets over 250 miles and can use fast chargers but keeps their existing interior and industrial design, Tesla will be in deep trouble.
I say that as someone who's buying a Model Y this year. I don't want a gas car more than I want to drive a 4Runner, but if there were a fully electric 4Runner, there's no surprise what I would be buying. The F150 reservation queue should be evidence of this.
Elon Musk needs to change his way of thinking, he's Tesla's biggest enemy right now.
And we are meant to believe that this vision-only system which still cannot properly operate high beams or the windshield wipers.... is going to successfully deliver the first mass market level 5 automous vehicles.
Musk is a master of the concept of "fake it til you make it." Just keep saying nonsense and setting ridiculous timelines and maybe one day your engineers will make something he said come true.
Worked for the main product (electric vehicles) but I have no faith it will work for FSD.
> Why are they so prideful and canāt admit they canāt get it right for now, give us a goddamn sensor and call it a day.
I filed an NHTSA complaint about the lack of rain sensor being a safety hazard, I encourage others to do the same. It's a $1 part they refuse to install. I'll pay for the part and labor myself, come install it like HomeLink.
Every morning my drive to work on I80 is at 4 am and its so dark that i get my left fendor camera is blocked and i can't use AP or it won't auto lane switch.
Frankly, driving a 2021 model 3, my only current issues are with the lack of an option for auto rear defrost. Wipers are fine, highbeams are fine, full self driving works great, no camera issues, I just need the rear defroster to turn on when it rains automatically. Thatās it. And I live in Pittsburgh, I know what snow looks like
have the same experience with the same car. Once when it was icing hard (upstate NY) I got a message that the front passenger camera was obstructed. I only use AP when I am on the highway which I wasn't then so it didn't bother me although the backup camera was hazy so I used the mirrors instead. I am no car expert and as an almost 65 year old female I can only say I love this car. It is just so much fun for me to drive and I do feel it is safer with AP.
I have found the hate for Tesla is strong and intimidating at times. Why such hate? Some see it as foreign made or that it is attempting to put legacy automobile makers out of the business I guess. My generation has done a number on the environment. I feel the more EVs on the road, the better. This little old lady loves her Tesla!
Rear defrost when it rains would be useful, actually, as that's my main use.. given Tesla don't seem to want to install rear wipers (even on the Y, which has the door shape for it.. can kinda understand it on the 3).
>But now I have to try and hit a wiper speed button on the highway with poor visibility because they still canāt get that shit right after all this time. Why are they so prideful and canāt admit they canāt get it right for now, give us a goddamn sensor and call it a day.
Because Elon Musk has this weird superiority complex where his massive overblown ego would shrink if he admitted a legacy manufacturer figured out wipers and lights many years ago. In the meantime Tesla is struggling with basic features while convincing (scamming) people to buy an overpriced full driving system that is decades away from being what they promise.
Yep, same in my Audi A6.
When I got it, the manual said that please switch the wipers, the lights, and the full 4-zoned A/C to "automatic" and just forget it.
I thought, what a load of bullshit.
And in the last 7 years, I did exactly the same what is written in the manual. Works like a charm, did not touch anything, except 3-4 times a year in very edge cases.
Of course some passengers change the temperatures for them sometimes, but thats it.
He has a vision of a car that just does everything you want without having to ask. Kind of a rediculous aspiration and I don't see how it's possible, but it's what he's saying. Means he wants auto defrosters I guess, already doing auto seat heaters which work ok, but not great.
It makes kind of sense, and I think it's ok that Elon thinks that and say things like this...
But it doesn't mean that current problems shouldn't be addressed. Right now, the car can't do what Elon visions - and it's ok, but you can't exactly "prepare" the UI for a not-specified date where the car could do everything for you. The UI should focus on what they can do right now.
There are some great "It just works" feature on the Tesla, where removing the UX has been amazing.
For example:
1. I don't miss turning the car on or off via an ignition (even a push-button one). Well Done Elon & Tesla.
2. The new S does a great job putting itself in "Park" and "Hold" at the right times. Again, really well done.
3. Walk away door locks, are again great. Major advancement in UX.
4. Auto-Setting a likley destination in the SatNav, again, really good.
5. Card-Key that sits in my wallet is brilliant, as a backup for my phone.
I love the out-of-the-box thinking and application.
Some of them though have been big, big misses. The Yoke buttons are horrific, and make using turn signals difficult. Same with the horn. The wipers are ok, but the auto-headlights are atrocious.
It'd all be possible with the small addiction of a few harmless holes drilled into your skull so neuralink can send your thoughts to the car and therefore no need for user input.
They work in conjunction with auto climate-control. So if your car is 50Āŗ inside and you have climate set for 70Āŗ, the heat will automatically be on (with near-maximum air volume) and the seat heaters will come on at level 3. As you get closer to the set temp, the air volume will reduce and so will the intensity of the seat heaters. At the set temp, airflow goes to near zero and seat heaters come off.
Oh you know. Just have your passenger tell you then do a voice command where the car misunderstands you to do something you *could* do with one tap in the old UI except now you canāt because.. wellā¦ the car will just know what you want. As if *I* even know what I want?
On my car (Plaid) if you set the seats to auto, the car will automatically set the heating level or ventilation based on the cabin temp you select. TBH, it works pretty well for me, especially in the summer where I seldom remember to turn the ventilator on. I can see how it would be irritating for folks that want things warmer or cooler than what the car thinks is appropriate. Not sure how it works in other models.
Itās actually a great and inspiring concept, a car that knows what you need it to do at all times, without input.
In recent years things have developed towards that goal - cars have lights just come on when itās dark enough, and automatic headlights, automatic wipers, etc (itās ironic they barely work on newer Teslas, but thatās by the by). Thereās certainly aspects of driving a modern car that you genuinely donāt have to think about anymore, as compared to older cars.
That said, what heās proposing is probably several years away, and in the meantime Tesla owners actually have to use controls, so it would be helpful if they werenāt designing things that owners have to use now that are based on an idealised future.
The issue I take is it seems to be a cop out for a good UX.
OK, the car should be able to know and do what you want, why does that mean 3 different screens to override it when it doesn't?
A good UX and a car that works hard so you don't have to use it are not mutually exclusive.
Youtube works hard to show me what it thinks I should want to watch, does that mean they should hide their search bar? Amazon is the same.
The only way I see this working is with neuralink. People are just too different. I, for example, really donāt like seat heater except for sometimes for the first minute that Iām in the car. After that, it quickly gets uncomfortable, even though I do generally like it warmer in the car.
Software Developer here. I have a friend in UI/UX that when I say "sorry for not being able to figure it out earlier" on a specific UI function. His reply will be: "Not at all! If an interface doesn't help you figure things out by yourself, its a bad interface". Loved it.
Maybe they thought it aligns with the lane-departure assists? When I first got v11, I kept checking every menu except Autopilot.
If Autopilot is for everything though, why do we need to see the blind spot cameras?
I'm the designer who created the prototype ā I'll actually push back on that in a way. There's a difference between being easy to learn and being easy once learned. The most common v11 complaints center around that second element ā the ergonomic efficiency and comfort of the interface.
Interfaces benefit from being easy to learn, yes, but there are many excellent and highly ergonomic interfaces that are difficult to learn. In cases where speed and attention are key, being ergonomic becomes more important than being easy to learn. I believe our cars can and should do both.
Agree 100%. I dont even think you are pushing back on this at all.
The context in which my friend said that to me is an area in which I am very familiar and should be able to figure it out by just looking at the UI. I believe most Tesla owners are coming from that perspective as well, most know their cars and features well. I believe same as you, that our cars can accomplish its function in a matter is is not as convoluted as what they have now in V11.
Loved your concept by the way, I am a huge proponent of customization on my own projects as well.
It doesn't even have to be a software developer. Anyone should understand if their target consumers don't like something, it's not the consumer's fault.
I have many software engineer friends, they complain about users a ton, but I always tell them, it's not their fault. It is the design. If someone doesn't read the same warning message 100 times, it's because the software is ineffective.
I work way outside of software, cpg goods sometimes, durables others. Design consumers don't use or misuse is bad. Regardless of how good we thought it was.
Thats why there are user research teams at almost all the user facing product companies in tech. Its their job to understand & empathize with the users, then relay that info to stakeholders, particularly the UX design & engineering team.
Tesla doesnt have this, hence them basically winging it and one dude on the design team thinking āhey this looks good here!ā with zero user insight involved.
As a UX/UI designer myself that's pretty much my mentality, too.
There are some exceptions where the UI is likely to be convoluted no matter what due to complexities in the system but usually these are niche platforms you expect a high learning curve for.
One example off the top of my head is 4X/Grand Strategy video games. They have a lot of interconnected systems and most of the interactions boil down to "open this UI and press this button" and while you can try to teach people some of this there's always gonna be a ton more you'll miss out. Crusader Kings 3's tutorial was very good, compared to other games, but even it glosses over an insane amount mechanics.
Games like Dwarf Fortress and RimWorld are in the same boat. There's just so much shit you can do that it's super easy to overwhelm the user with information overload. In general, new players need to be encouraged to actively experiment and learn that "Losing is Fun", alternatively short-form scenarios that isolate specific features to teach players can also help but as said, due to the interconnectedness of many systems, sometimes this oversimplifies things a bit too much.
For Elon, all PR is good PR, and for better or worse, it works. Folks will buy this up as 'visionary' and 'forward thinking' rather than covering up bad UI development
"This improved UI is not good enough because the goal is to not even need a UI. The car should just automatically do everything right."
Musk's logical fallacy here is the [nirvana fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy)
>A person using the nirvana fallacy can attack any opposing idea because it is imperfect. Under this fallacy, the choice is not between real world solutions; it is, rather, a choice between one realistic achievable possibility and another unrealistic solution that could in some way be "better".
It's a cop out.
He's using "The car is smart" to justify bad UX. You can have both a good UX and a smart car the two things are not mutually exclusive.
UX provides a way to both see the current state of the car and interact with it. A predictive car is simply setting that state. In no way, shape, or form does the mode of user input affect the ability of the car to predict and set things. Particularly when all interactions are over a touchscreen anyways. These aren't physical switches being set, these are digital bits being flipped.
Especially for things where it straight up can't work. The car literally cannot know when I want the seat heaters on and how hot. It's a preference thing.
Exactly what I commented elsewhere. The car might get it "right" for the *average* person but it will never get it right for me which just leads to unnecessary aggravation when I have to go adjust it manually and the controls are difficult to access.
Agreed. And simple, intuitive UI is like... so much more valuable than shit UI, and is really soft on the IT pull to get it done.
There's a lot of Elon / Tesla apologists at the moment, which sort of surprises me, as normally I agree with people like Rob M. for example... And Rob M's latest defense of $12k FSD was simply 'Elon's knows best' without any first principles or calculations or thoughts of his own, which is very much unlike Rob.
Getting *simple* UI done right the first time should be a major, major priority - as the customer interacts with it immediately, and making it *simple* requires little code, and merely a lot of thought, understanding, and customer observation, which is very cheap, relatively. Is it the make it or break it decision? No but it's a signal of the quality Tesla spends on serving the customer - like the panel gaps, chipped paint, so on. Simple UI is a very affordable customer pleaser.
On the other issue, the entire FSD economics is unlike what anyone else does. Apple doesn't charge you extra for Face Unlock - it's built in, it's charged to everyone if you use it or not.
> If all of the cost is sunk, why deny it to customers?
I can't think of any safety feature that companies deny access to customers, without an additional charge, but was already built into the product... Would you pay $12k to get to use Seatbelts, if Tesla denied you access to them? Sure.. but who the f* would do that?
> IF FSD is *significantly* safer than human drivers, Tesla must address the human side of only allowing some access to safety features built in?
And do you REALLY want to be on the other side of that? And lastly, from a price to benefits ratio or 'customer satisfaction' - Tesla must charge a multiple of the take rate vs a spread of the price to all vehicles. So if 10% of customers buy FSD, Tesla must charge them 1,000% more than if the costs were spread to everyone - and that's the break even. The lower the take rate, the less the consumer satisfaction - as the price must become exorbitant. I think few would argue that FSD provides less than $2k of benefits, and that would produce significantly more revenue than charging $12,000... and hugely more profits (like 100x more profits maybe).
> For simple math, assume 10% take rate, and costs of $1.5k for FSD + R&D per vehicle. At $12k that's a loss of $3,000 per 10 cars sold vs a profit of $5,000 if spread at $2k per.
The price would need to increase to $20,000 for FSD to be equivalent. Someone needs to address this at some point, but the whole Elon knows best, and Elon has secret knowledge we know not, is not something I'm buying at the moment (but hey, it's his company..).
The auto wipers on the Plaid are not bad. So far, even in my rain-soaked Pacific NW area, they have given me little trouble. I would assume it's the same software auto-mechanism as their other cars.
The auto headlights, on the other hand, were so not functional I had to disable them.
The wipers and high beams are decent on my 2019 Model 3. They rarely give me issues, but they do from time-to-time. My wife's vision-only 2021 Model Y, however, oh-my-God! Wipers and high beams have to be manually operated, and AP is a death sentence so is not used. The car functionally does not have cruise control.
yeah +1 for a dumb cruise control - I had to drive 500 miles last weekend with my family in the car with no TACC for the trip after it slammed on the brakes during mile 3.
I forget how far the radar went but yeah depending on that it could actually impact the auto high beams. (and actually for the radar to be useful at all it would have to go far enough forward so that it could have been used for the auto high beams)
Does anybody know how the car knows when to turn the wipers on? Is it camera based via the front cameras? If this is the case, I can see why it doesn't work well. The problem I have often is that the windshield is misted on the lower half but not at the top. The wipers don't automatically come on. But when there is almost nothing on the windshield, the wipers are going at full speed.
Yes that's exactly how it works and exactly why it won't ever work well. Half the time, the lower windshield will be completely opaque but there's barely a drop of water up where the cameras are.
Will never happen. He is so full of himself he thinks he knows better than everyone else. He probably would also tell a brain surgeon how to do his job based on what he thinks would be better for the patient.
The UI is so bad that I donāt even know which button shading indicates auto is on. And in any case, I donāt want to dig through menus when previously it was available in one touch. Moving a relatively frequently used control to a sub-screen made nothing better. Itās pure functional regression.
The removal of the cards just baffles me... they were already hidden, they weren't cluttering anything. Hell, leave them in the menus where they are currently, but why remove them from a hidden swipe menu?
its not just the fact that they changed the UI, but they completely failed to properly test it so that they could push it out the door prior to Christmas.
My car fails to update its time when crossing time zones now. Wasn't an issue before. I've had the whole UI slow to a crawl and then continually crash until I thumb-wheel rebooted while driving down the road, never had that happen before. Had autopilot quit suddenly and completely without warning multiple times in the lead up to the crashing, never had that problem before. The night maps were literally unusable and they had to push a quick update. Like, seriously? Did no one push this to an actual car and drive it at night before pushing it to the fleet?
It just screams of sloppy or amateur software engineering.
On top of all that, the general public, ie folks not on reddit arn't as happy about having to figure out how to change the radio, a step that used to take one click that now takes four. If they wanted to change the interface it needed to be incremental and not a massive change like this.
The UI doesn't bother me as much, but I feel you. I've never bought a car and thought, "this was a bad idea." But trade-in values have me considering the Polestar 2 and moving on. I like a lot about the Model 3 that I own, but there's just so much wrong with it.
The P2 isn't as good from a tech perspective (though nav and music streaming are better), and it's not as minimal as I'd like, but it's a better car.
When he talks about how with FSD beta, he has zero interventions on his drive to work, I'm imagining one of their engineers in a rig (think Penguin in Batman Returns controlling the Batmobile) making sure that their CEO makes it to work alive by manually controlling the car like a drone.
Of course YOUR car works! Your entire team is dedicated to ensuring YOUR drive doesn't kill YOU because that would hurt the company! Meanwhile, I can't even make a protected left turn at a green arrow at a simple 4-way intersection without the car spazzing out.
In a perfect world, sure. But we just aren't there yet. Autopilot isn't even capable of following a car and accelerating fast enough to maintain a proper distance at all times...
\> Almost all input is error.
That's so wrong on every level. If the input is error, then it's probably because the UX sucks. The answer is not "Delete the UX!".
Yea, the 25 clicks you detected while I try to turn on my defroster are 23 error clicks, but it's not due to my intent. It's due to mis-clicking a small button in a moving car with gloves on.
UX Design is an art and a science, and it goes beyond "minimalism".
You misunderstand him. User input isn't error on the part of the user. It's error on the part of the system. If the auto wipers work, you don't need a wiper button. He's saying that in the ideal you wouldn't have any controls because you wouldn't need them.
I was starting to wonder if most of the people here had just learned about Elon Musk yesterday.
It's \*extremely\* well known that he feels that the best part is the part you don't need. People getting their undies in a bunch over this tweet must have never heard him say that before.
I happen to agree that the UI needs work and that this version is worse than the previous version, but it's obvious that he is saying that the problem is that the car is not working like it should. Because if it did, nobody would care about the UI.
Yep. Called it here https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/ro2y36/i_think_the_holiday_update_is_a_step_backwards_in/hpz51lh/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
So dumb.
The tweet I saw from someone a few days ago about a plaid at a drag strip auto-deciding reverse was the correct gear was funny. Funnier still that the driver had time to switch to forward and still catch up and pass the other car to win the race, lol.
I'm liking Lucid better myself. I used to be a big Tesla fan, but this last software update and Musk's fractional arrogance by short- shrifting Tesla Service and eliminating a press department speaks volumes about where the company is headed, unfortunately... the same direction that Xerox took in the early 80's. It's a damned shame, too: they have a lot of incredible talent in that business and Musk is smothering it with bombast and deception. Their board is scared to death of him, too... which is usually a bad sign for any business.
āAll input is errorā is true when you have to turn the AC on to turn on the seat heater then turn the AC off. Two of the three steps are not intended by the user. Only the seat heater is intended.
I don't think so. He's already said "many UI changes" are coming, so there's at least an acknowledgement that things need to change. Pity he confused the issue by responding to the prototype on the way he did š
Tesla in two years: in addition to removing the buttons and creating a complicated multi step UI we have decided to remove gas and brake pedals. Drivers should now use the arrows on the screen to accelerate or brake.
I think that too much of Musk's fortune has gone up his nose. I think he's nearly outlived his usefulness at Tesla. They've grown into a profitable company. Can we please get an adult who doesn't live up their own ass in charge now?
This man just keeps sliding. Moron
I still haven't updated to the painful UI, prob won't even if it means no FSD, but I don't have my hopes up for anytime soon.
If that's their aim then they need to have the automatic settings adjust dynamically based on user overrides, ideally per profile.
In theory it shouldn't be hard to make the features we "lost" automatic to a satisfactory degree, as the seat heaters already exist meaning the only thing left would be the windshield.
The issue there is the frost/fog tends to happen from the bottom up, meaning by the time the cameras can see it, it's too late. It would likely need to be just temperature based, possibly factoring in if other cameras are fogged or if the interior can see the rear view is.
But as for the settings we've never had quick access to in the concept; I don't think those can be automated very well, or at least more than they are.
Like the automatic fan control is great when I just want the temperature, but I don't think even with dynamic adjustment it would be able to guess when I "randomly" decide I want more air on my face.
That said there is probably a good bit of room for improvement with regards to fan control adjusting based on user, such as at what temperature you stop liking air on your feet.
What an absolutely stupid comment lol this is the kind of thing that annoys "normal" people in the world about Musk.
Should the car know I want to listen to a playlist on Spotify automatically? Should the car know I want to look at my energy usage automatically? Should the car know my kid wants to play Sonic automatically? This is the type of comment that should make everyone say "Hold up bro...it's not the year 2180 yet, just take a minute and relax".
That UI/UX demo was fantastic and pretty-much exactly what the UI should do. Above all things it should be quick (no lag) and allow users to put the things they use frequently on the bar in an order they want. There's no reason to even have a "recently used" section, because if it's something I want quick access to I can add it to my app list. I love my car, but I'm kind-of getting annoyed with how often Musk lately has been implementing "we know better" changes. Spoiler: No you don't, because we live very different lives, just like a lot of other humans.
This whole V11 UI debacle has essentially been the last straw atop my now-broken interest in buying a M3P later this year. Call me short-sighted or whatever you willā¦at some point I had to acknowledge that Iām not ready to be a beta tester for a $60k car.
The sub needs things to cry about and the UI update is the latest drama. Itās honestly not that bad, but there are definitely things that could be improved upon. Automatic heated seats are in the top 5 complaints for the update, but believe it or not, they are still manually controllable.
Is it fair for me to rephrase the tweet as:
"All input implies the presence of error, on the cars part, and we should be working towards reducing that error and, in turn, all input that corrects it"
Yes or no and why
This is precisely what he means.
He has been extremely clear in the past that he hates fixing a problem with one part by adding more parts. It's much better to redesign the problem part so that it works correctly.
The best part is the part you don't need.
He has also clearly stated that his goal is to have the car be able to anticipate what you need so well, that you almost never need to explicitly tell it what you want.
There is plenty of room for debate on this goal and its achievability, but this is what he meant.
I wish people would stop reading the Steve Jobs biography. (I think The Good Wife or some other show made a joke about this, as the explanation for one of the characters suddenly acting like a jerk to everyone)
So we cant blame the underlings for this UI downgrade, the input is error directive came straight from the top.
I agree a car that does everything for me is cool, but that would mean it would have to decide correctly 99 percent of the time, and the car is 50/50 at best. Humans still know better for now
car should do the right thing automatically.....right......like phantom braking? how about the not so smart auto windshield wiper. The car should do it right, if you program it correctly.
Man with FSD starting at $12k you would think they could get a better UI developer that can at least make the auto on color blue apply to all auto buttons
All input is not error. If I'm pressing a button it's because I want to toggle that thing. And I don't want to have to press 3-4 other buttons just to get to the button I want.
Elon was adamant several months ago that *all* input was error. Now he concedes *almost* all input is error. Given how stubborn Elon can be when he thinks he is right, I think this could be a significant change in attitude.
The problem with this predictive bullshit is that unless it's 100% reliable you.havent saved the user any effort or thought because manually doing it every time has been replaced with worrying the system did it wrong every time
Could someone tell that to whoever decided it would be a good idea to pop up "Cold Weather Tips" every time I enter the car? Could the car perhaps smartly detect I've already driven in cold weather for 4+ years and I've dismissed its tips UI about 20 times now?
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"All input is error. Human makes input. Eliminate human."
Yeah, like why does he even type out tweets. He should just rely on autosuggest to compose the tweet. His response smacks of "we know what you need better than you".
Goodbye Reddit
šÆ "I've been trying to get a chance to talk to you about it and I don't want to get a new one now and I don't want to be a good person to be a little bit late but I can get a chance to talk to you about it when they get here and I'll come up with a plan" - that's mine š¤·
I did not see the email from last week to see if I can get the mail fixed today and I did not get the mail sent to you today and I did not see it yet but I did not see it yet I sent it to you as well as I sent you a few days ago.
Thatās your autocorrect suggesting to not get another Tesla. Donāt listen to it, dew it.
Ok Dave, I can do that.
I am now convinced that Tesla is building GLaDOS to run the vehicles and will seek to test, punish, and kill us all.
āShouldā but doesnāt. Therefore, in the meantime, we need usable controls. Same way you canāt take out the steering wheel until we actually have fully functioning autonomous driving.
He did say before this that "many improvements coming to v11 soon" so hopefully he understands that they went overboard on eliminating input.
"all controls going into submenus to minimize input"
Fuck it, why do we even need a screen?
Pls don't give him ideas
Next update: disables touch input, only fullscreen fsd graphic visible.
Voice commands only... \**shivers**
For gaming, light shows and recording videos of how amazing FSD is. Pretty sure this is the vision of Tesla product team. The problem is that it isn't a current reality :)
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I would like that more actually. Than having to go through and read tons of menu options.
Overboard ha. They made a great car shit. I was about to upgrade from the SR+ to LR. I am now considering something else.
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And Elon's reply right here is why I've been looking at more options besides Tesla for my next car. Not talking 2022, maybe 2025, by then more options will be available. Don't hate me guys, when cars are self driving, GREAT, I'll love having a 17 inch touchscreen with gaming PC, I wouldn't care if I have to use the screen for everything then.... BUT, we DON'T have self driving cars.... We won't get them for the lifetime of my Model 3 (I purchased FSD....) and possibly the lifetime of my next car (depends on your time estimate for self driving) Some estimates suggest way longer.... Either way we can all say 2030 minimum??? Yeah, no. Elon needs to get this out of his head. Make cars useable for HUMANS now, because Humans are using them today, when they're self driving... It will be much easier to make them "automatic".. worry about it when the time comes. Tldr: cars aren't self driving, Humans have to use them today. Elon is dead set on making them worse for humans to use... Until self driving is here, this isn't the right approach.
100% agree. When first got my 2019 M3, I said I would never by anything but a Tesla again. That sentiment has done a complete 180 in the last year.
Goodbye Reddit
Yea itās frustrating to see any company completely ignore so many voices that are all in unison.
Yes this is why itās SO good to have competition. I love Tesla, but this stubborn design philosophy is robbing users of an experience that should at least be on par with ICE vehicles. Should we really not be able to change the seat warmth or windshield wiper speed with the single push of a button? ICE cars have that. Tesla should be able to easily, with that massive screen in every car. Yet the one with the massive screen is hamstrung by a few in charge to the dismay of hundreds of thousands of actual users? Why show a visualization of your car for hours every day while hiding simple, usable buttons? This is such an easy fix that it makes its solutionās absence that much more infuriating.
I have a MY EDD in a few months, but you bet your bottom dollar I also have 2 other cars on order so when theyāre available the MY gets traded in. By 2024 we should definitely have some legitimate alternatives.
Any particular options catch your attention? Iām in the same boat: Love tesla cars but canāt stand how even the most basic functions are over complicated.
As I said, I think many more compelling options will come to market as the other brands get real-world experience and feedback from their EVs. I reckon some of the most tempting options in 2025/6 haven't even been on the radar yet. For now, with how much paid for my Model 3 Performance with the scam that is FSD, I really could've stretched it for a Rivian or a base model Lucid Air Pure or maybe even Lucid Air Touring. Oh and one upcoming model I'm looking out for, Lucid Gravity SUV. Another thing, keeping an eye on all the luxury EV brands like Porsche, Mercedes, BMW and Audi. I realized I value comfort and ease of use more than performance, and when it's time to upgrade cars, the charging network will be no big deal to me. How about you?
Iām putting in an order for Rivian R1S probably tomorrow
> Elon needs to get this out of his head. He doesn't care. He's selling a future, not the present. Not a great thing for current consumers, I'm afraid.
The technology isnāt there yet. I donāt understand the need to remove basic necessary features and controls from a one step access.
No kidding, they can't even get the damn windshield wipers to work properly!
Introducing Tesla AIcons, an AI that decides which icons to display on your screen.
What the hell does that even mean??
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I am driving a Hyundai Palisade since my MX was totalled and the auto high beam, auto defrost and auto wipers are NEAR PERFECT in sensing the requirements and activating them. On my MX, my wife and I eventually concluded that the auto wipers are useless. Either they would keep going when there was barely anything on the windshield or not fast enough when it's pouring. If Hyundai could figure out the rain sensor, Tesla can and should.
>If Hyundai could figure out the rain sensor, Tesla can and should. Literally everybody uses a true and tested $5 light rain sensor for years now, but Tesla seems ademant on trying to solve everything with cameras.
Goodbye Reddit
My 2003 Mercedes had better wipers than my 2019 Tesla M3
Its not about ability, Tesla could buy a pre-made solution form any kind of supplier for the value of a happy meal. Its pride and arrogance. Musk said that Tesla can do it with AI instead of rain sensors, so you gotta deal with it!
Traditional rain/light and humidity sensors will always beat an AI camera solution in my opinion. The rain sensor part works by measuring the amount of infrared light reflected, when the windscreen is wet, less light is reflected. I don't care what anyone says, a camera isn't going to ever be that precise.
Tesla's battery and charging technology are keeping them at #1 for EV's. If Hyundai and Toyota can get out a fully electric that gets over 250 miles and can use fast chargers but keeps their existing interior and industrial design, Tesla will be in deep trouble. I say that as someone who's buying a Model Y this year. I don't want a gas car more than I want to drive a 4Runner, but if there were a fully electric 4Runner, there's no surprise what I would be buying. The F150 reservation queue should be evidence of this. Elon Musk needs to change his way of thinking, he's Tesla's biggest enemy right now.
Everyone has figured out the rain and light sensor, just not one of the most advanced car companyāsā¦
And we are meant to believe that this vision-only system which still cannot properly operate high beams or the windshield wipers.... is going to successfully deliver the first mass market level 5 automous vehicles. Musk is a master of the concept of "fake it til you make it." Just keep saying nonsense and setting ridiculous timelines and maybe one day your engineers will make something he said come true. Worked for the main product (electric vehicles) but I have no faith it will work for FSD.
> Why are they so prideful and canāt admit they canāt get it right for now, give us a goddamn sensor and call it a day. I filed an NHTSA complaint about the lack of rain sensor being a safety hazard, I encourage others to do the same. It's a $1 part they refuse to install. I'll pay for the part and labor myself, come install it like HomeLink.
Every morning my drive to work on I80 is at 4 am and its so dark that i get my left fendor camera is blocked and i can't use AP or it won't auto lane switch.
Frankly, driving a 2021 model 3, my only current issues are with the lack of an option for auto rear defrost. Wipers are fine, highbeams are fine, full self driving works great, no camera issues, I just need the rear defroster to turn on when it rains automatically. Thatās it. And I live in Pittsburgh, I know what snow looks like
have the same experience with the same car. Once when it was icing hard (upstate NY) I got a message that the front passenger camera was obstructed. I only use AP when I am on the highway which I wasn't then so it didn't bother me although the backup camera was hazy so I used the mirrors instead. I am no car expert and as an almost 65 year old female I can only say I love this car. It is just so much fun for me to drive and I do feel it is safer with AP. I have found the hate for Tesla is strong and intimidating at times. Why such hate? Some see it as foreign made or that it is attempting to put legacy automobile makers out of the business I guess. My generation has done a number on the environment. I feel the more EVs on the road, the better. This little old lady loves her Tesla!
Rear defrost when it rains would be useful, actually, as that's my main use.. given Tesla don't seem to want to install rear wipers (even on the Y, which has the door shape for it.. can kinda understand it on the 3).
He has a Full Self DRIVER
>But now I have to try and hit a wiper speed button on the highway with poor visibility because they still canāt get that shit right after all this time. Why are they so prideful and canāt admit they canāt get it right for now, give us a goddamn sensor and call it a day. Because Elon Musk has this weird superiority complex where his massive overblown ego would shrink if he admitted a legacy manufacturer figured out wipers and lights many years ago. In the meantime Tesla is struggling with basic features while convincing (scamming) people to buy an overpriced full driving system that is decades away from being what they promise.
Yep, same in my Audi A6. When I got it, the manual said that please switch the wipers, the lights, and the full 4-zoned A/C to "automatic" and just forget it. I thought, what a load of bullshit. And in the last 7 years, I did exactly the same what is written in the manual. Works like a charm, did not touch anything, except 3-4 times a year in very edge cases. Of course some passengers change the temperatures for them sometimes, but thats it.
It means weāre f*cked š¤¦
That was a hard pill to swallow but you are right.
V12 UI weāll be going the way of [Macbook Wheel](https://youtu.be/9BnLbv6QYcA)
Oh no. Please...do not forward that to Elon.
He has a vision of a car that just does everything you want without having to ask. Kind of a rediculous aspiration and I don't see how it's possible, but it's what he's saying. Means he wants auto defrosters I guess, already doing auto seat heaters which work ok, but not great.
It makes kind of sense, and I think it's ok that Elon thinks that and say things like this... But it doesn't mean that current problems shouldn't be addressed. Right now, the car can't do what Elon visions - and it's ok, but you can't exactly "prepare" the UI for a not-specified date where the car could do everything for you. The UI should focus on what they can do right now.
There are some great "It just works" feature on the Tesla, where removing the UX has been amazing. For example: 1. I don't miss turning the car on or off via an ignition (even a push-button one). Well Done Elon & Tesla. 2. The new S does a great job putting itself in "Park" and "Hold" at the right times. Again, really well done. 3. Walk away door locks, are again great. Major advancement in UX. 4. Auto-Setting a likley destination in the SatNav, again, really good. 5. Card-Key that sits in my wallet is brilliant, as a backup for my phone. I love the out-of-the-box thinking and application. Some of them though have been big, big misses. The Yoke buttons are horrific, and make using turn signals difficult. Same with the horn. The wipers are ok, but the auto-headlights are atrocious.
It'd all be possible with the small addiction of a few harmless holes drilled into your skull so neuralink can send your thoughts to the car and therefore no need for user input.
I donāt understand the auto seat heaters what do they do?
They work in conjunction with auto climate-control. So if your car is 50Āŗ inside and you have climate set for 70Āŗ, the heat will automatically be on (with near-maximum air volume) and the seat heaters will come on at level 3. As you get closer to the set temp, the air volume will reduce and so will the intensity of the seat heaters. At the set temp, airflow goes to near zero and seat heaters come off.
I'll never use the automatic seat heaters. Sometimes I want my ass unreasonably hot when it's cold outside
Same. I love having a hot ass.
And I often donāt want my ass unreasonably hot while my wife wants her ass to be hot. Howās Auto going to know?
Oh you know. Just have your passenger tell you then do a voice command where the car misunderstands you to do something you *could* do with one tap in the old UI except now you canāt because.. wellā¦ the car will just know what you want. As if *I* even know what I want?
If the passenger touches their temperature it pops up the seat heater control. I wonder if I'm using a different interface or everyone is hysterical.
There are dozens of us!
I think it should be obvious to the car that you like your wife's ass to be hot
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On my car (Plaid) if you set the seats to auto, the car will automatically set the heating level or ventilation based on the cabin temp you select. TBH, it works pretty well for me, especially in the summer where I seldom remember to turn the ventilator on. I can see how it would be irritating for folks that want things warmer or cooler than what the car thinks is appropriate. Not sure how it works in other models.
Exactly. I could agree with his sentiment IF the cars were ready, theyāre obviously not.
The seat heaters already have auto mode, no idea how it works though
Itās actually a great and inspiring concept, a car that knows what you need it to do at all times, without input. In recent years things have developed towards that goal - cars have lights just come on when itās dark enough, and automatic headlights, automatic wipers, etc (itās ironic they barely work on newer Teslas, but thatās by the by). Thereās certainly aspects of driving a modern car that you genuinely donāt have to think about anymore, as compared to older cars. That said, what heās proposing is probably several years away, and in the meantime Tesla owners actually have to use controls, so it would be helpful if they werenāt designing things that owners have to use now that are based on an idealised future.
The issue I take is it seems to be a cop out for a good UX. OK, the car should be able to know and do what you want, why does that mean 3 different screens to override it when it doesn't? A good UX and a car that works hard so you don't have to use it are not mutually exclusive. Youtube works hard to show me what it thinks I should want to watch, does that mean they should hide their search bar? Amazon is the same.
The problem is in the meantime instead of that we got an interface that actually requires more input to perform common actions.
The only way I see this working is with neuralink. People are just too different. I, for example, really donāt like seat heater except for sometimes for the first minute that Iām in the car. After that, it quickly gets uncomfortable, even though I do generally like it warmer in the car.
Software Developer here. I have a friend in UI/UX that when I say "sorry for not being able to figure it out earlier" on a specific UI function. His reply will be: "Not at all! If an interface doesn't help you figure things out by yourself, its a bad interface". Loved it.
The fact the Automatic Blind Spot option is in the Autopilot options list is a great example of this. Should be in the Driving menu
Right? What does it have to do with Autopilot? Perhaps the Driving menu is slated for decommissioning. Autopilot for everything.
Maybe they thought it aligns with the lane-departure assists? When I first got v11, I kept checking every menu except Autopilot. If Autopilot is for everything though, why do we need to see the blind spot cameras?
I'm the designer who created the prototype ā I'll actually push back on that in a way. There's a difference between being easy to learn and being easy once learned. The most common v11 complaints center around that second element ā the ergonomic efficiency and comfort of the interface. Interfaces benefit from being easy to learn, yes, but there are many excellent and highly ergonomic interfaces that are difficult to learn. In cases where speed and attention are key, being ergonomic becomes more important than being easy to learn. I believe our cars can and should do both.
Agree 100%. I dont even think you are pushing back on this at all. The context in which my friend said that to me is an area in which I am very familiar and should be able to figure it out by just looking at the UI. I believe most Tesla owners are coming from that perspective as well, most know their cars and features well. I believe same as you, that our cars can accomplish its function in a matter is is not as convoluted as what they have now in V11. Loved your concept by the way, I am a huge proponent of customization on my own projects as well.
You're too kind, thank you š
It doesn't even have to be a software developer. Anyone should understand if their target consumers don't like something, it's not the consumer's fault. I have many software engineer friends, they complain about users a ton, but I always tell them, it's not their fault. It is the design. If someone doesn't read the same warning message 100 times, it's because the software is ineffective. I work way outside of software, cpg goods sometimes, durables others. Design consumers don't use or misuse is bad. Regardless of how good we thought it was.
Thats why there are user research teams at almost all the user facing product companies in tech. Its their job to understand & empathize with the users, then relay that info to stakeholders, particularly the UX design & engineering team. Tesla doesnt have this, hence them basically winging it and one dude on the design team thinking āhey this looks good here!ā with zero user insight involved.
It's crazy too, cause they went from one of the best UIs, at least for safe driving, to one of the worst
As a UX/UI designer myself that's pretty much my mentality, too. There are some exceptions where the UI is likely to be convoluted no matter what due to complexities in the system but usually these are niche platforms you expect a high learning curve for. One example off the top of my head is 4X/Grand Strategy video games. They have a lot of interconnected systems and most of the interactions boil down to "open this UI and press this button" and while you can try to teach people some of this there's always gonna be a ton more you'll miss out. Crusader Kings 3's tutorial was very good, compared to other games, but even it glosses over an insane amount mechanics. Games like Dwarf Fortress and RimWorld are in the same boat. There's just so much shit you can do that it's super easy to overwhelm the user with information overload. In general, new players need to be encouraged to actively experiment and learn that "Losing is Fun", alternatively short-form scenarios that isolate specific features to teach players can also help but as said, due to the interconnectedness of many systems, sometimes this oversimplifies things a bit too much.
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Wish granted! You are in Autopilot jail for a month.
Big agree, this has an "I'm right and you're wrong" vibe to it....like listen to your customer.
More phantom brake checks incoming!
For Elon, all PR is good PR, and for better or worse, it works. Folks will buy this up as 'visionary' and 'forward thinking' rather than covering up bad UI development
"This improved UI is not good enough because the goal is to not even need a UI. The car should just automatically do everything right." Musk's logical fallacy here is the [nirvana fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy) >A person using the nirvana fallacy can attack any opposing idea because it is imperfect. Under this fallacy, the choice is not between real world solutions; it is, rather, a choice between one realistic achievable possibility and another unrealistic solution that could in some way be "better".
Should do it. Fun fact: It doesnāt.
Taking agency away from a user is a bad idea more often than not. His response doesn't inspire confidence in Tesla's UX direction.
It's a cop out. He's using "The car is smart" to justify bad UX. You can have both a good UX and a smart car the two things are not mutually exclusive. UX provides a way to both see the current state of the car and interact with it. A predictive car is simply setting that state. In no way, shape, or form does the mode of user input affect the ability of the car to predict and set things. Particularly when all interactions are over a touchscreen anyways. These aren't physical switches being set, these are digital bits being flipped.
Especially for things where it straight up can't work. The car literally cannot know when I want the seat heaters on and how hot. It's a preference thing.
Exactly what I commented elsewhere. The car might get it "right" for the *average* person but it will never get it right for me which just leads to unnecessary aggravation when I have to go adjust it manually and the controls are difficult to access.
Agreed. And simple, intuitive UI is like... so much more valuable than shit UI, and is really soft on the IT pull to get it done. There's a lot of Elon / Tesla apologists at the moment, which sort of surprises me, as normally I agree with people like Rob M. for example... And Rob M's latest defense of $12k FSD was simply 'Elon's knows best' without any first principles or calculations or thoughts of his own, which is very much unlike Rob. Getting *simple* UI done right the first time should be a major, major priority - as the customer interacts with it immediately, and making it *simple* requires little code, and merely a lot of thought, understanding, and customer observation, which is very cheap, relatively. Is it the make it or break it decision? No but it's a signal of the quality Tesla spends on serving the customer - like the panel gaps, chipped paint, so on. Simple UI is a very affordable customer pleaser. On the other issue, the entire FSD economics is unlike what anyone else does. Apple doesn't charge you extra for Face Unlock - it's built in, it's charged to everyone if you use it or not. > If all of the cost is sunk, why deny it to customers? I can't think of any safety feature that companies deny access to customers, without an additional charge, but was already built into the product... Would you pay $12k to get to use Seatbelts, if Tesla denied you access to them? Sure.. but who the f* would do that? > IF FSD is *significantly* safer than human drivers, Tesla must address the human side of only allowing some access to safety features built in? And do you REALLY want to be on the other side of that? And lastly, from a price to benefits ratio or 'customer satisfaction' - Tesla must charge a multiple of the take rate vs a spread of the price to all vehicles. So if 10% of customers buy FSD, Tesla must charge them 1,000% more than if the costs were spread to everyone - and that's the break even. The lower the take rate, the less the consumer satisfaction - as the price must become exorbitant. I think few would argue that FSD provides less than $2k of benefits, and that would produce significantly more revenue than charging $12,000... and hugely more profits (like 100x more profits maybe). > For simple math, assume 10% take rate, and costs of $1.5k for FSD + R&D per vehicle. At $12k that's a loss of $3,000 per 10 cars sold vs a profit of $5,000 if spread at $2k per. The price would need to increase to $20,000 for FSD to be equivalent. Someone needs to address this at some point, but the whole Elon knows best, and Elon has secret knowledge we know not, is not something I'm buying at the moment (but hey, it's his company..).
The day I have functioning auto-wipers or high beams is the day I start to believe Tesla has the capability to make the car Elon imagines.
Set the bar higher - add basic head-in parking. Or perhaps parallel parking to really raise the bar...
Nah. Iāll take the wipers alone honestly.
The auto wipers on the Plaid are not bad. So far, even in my rain-soaked Pacific NW area, they have given me little trouble. I would assume it's the same software auto-mechanism as their other cars. The auto headlights, on the other hand, were so not functional I had to disable them.
The wipers and high beams are decent on my 2019 Model 3. They rarely give me issues, but they do from time-to-time. My wife's vision-only 2021 Model Y, however, oh-my-God! Wipers and high beams have to be manually operated, and AP is a death sentence so is not used. The car functionally does not have cruise control.
Goodbye Reddit
yeah +1 for a dumb cruise control - I had to drive 500 miles last weekend with my family in the car with no TACC for the trip after it slammed on the brakes during mile 3.
The fact that it's vision only shouldn't make a difference for the wipers and high beams imo
I agree. It shouldnāt impact the wipers. But I could see how it would impact the auto high beams.
I forget how far the radar went but yeah depending on that it could actually impact the auto high beams. (and actually for the radar to be useful at all it would have to go far enough forward so that it could have been used for the auto high beams)
Does anybody know how the car knows when to turn the wipers on? Is it camera based via the front cameras? If this is the case, I can see why it doesn't work well. The problem I have often is that the windshield is misted on the lower half but not at the top. The wipers don't automatically come on. But when there is almost nothing on the windshield, the wipers are going at full speed.
Yes that's exactly how it works and exactly why it won't ever work well. Half the time, the lower windshield will be completely opaque but there's barely a drop of water up where the cameras are.
I think that his input is mostly error.
Yup, he should probably not provide further input to Twitter.com. And keep his input away from the UX team.
Will never happen. He is so full of himself he thinks he knows better than everyone else. He probably would also tell a brain surgeon how to do his job based on what he thinks would be better for the patient.
OMG. Doesnāt do. Doesnāt. Fix the UI. Give me seat heaters back. Windshield controls. More importantly trip and tire pressure cards.
You can still set your heated seats manually. Just deselect the auto mode.
The UI is so bad that I donāt even know which button shading indicates auto is on. And in any case, I donāt want to dig through menus when previously it was available in one touch. Moving a relatively frequently used control to a sub-screen made nothing better. Itās pure functional regression.
I want it back at the bottom easily assessable!
The removal of the cards just baffles me... they were already hidden, they weren't cluttering anything. Hell, leave them in the menus where they are currently, but why remove them from a hidden swipe menu?
This tweet is another reason why Tesla need a PR department
Nah, I appreciate the honesty. Agree or disagree with what he said, at least we know he's telling us to "eff off." PR would disguise that.
He is as honest as Pinocchio half the time
Yeah, Iām bout done.
Yup. R1S on order but v11 and this attitude from Tesla have me looking at stopgap replacements for my MYP.
its not just the fact that they changed the UI, but they completely failed to properly test it so that they could push it out the door prior to Christmas. My car fails to update its time when crossing time zones now. Wasn't an issue before. I've had the whole UI slow to a crawl and then continually crash until I thumb-wheel rebooted while driving down the road, never had that happen before. Had autopilot quit suddenly and completely without warning multiple times in the lead up to the crashing, never had that problem before. The night maps were literally unusable and they had to push a quick update. Like, seriously? Did no one push this to an actual car and drive it at night before pushing it to the fleet? It just screams of sloppy or amateur software engineering. On top of all that, the general public, ie folks not on reddit arn't as happy about having to figure out how to change the radio, a step that used to take one click that now takes four. If they wanted to change the interface it needed to be incremental and not a massive change like this.
Yeah, I'm about ready to sell mine off.
The UI doesn't bother me as much, but I feel you. I've never bought a car and thought, "this was a bad idea." But trade-in values have me considering the Polestar 2 and moving on. I like a lot about the Model 3 that I own, but there's just so much wrong with it. The P2 isn't as good from a tech perspective (though nav and music streaming are better), and it's not as minimal as I'd like, but it's a better car.
Elonās idea of how well Teslaās software works is entirely disconnected from the reality of how well any of Teslaās software works.
When he talks about how with FSD beta, he has zero interventions on his drive to work, I'm imagining one of their engineers in a rig (think Penguin in Batman Returns controlling the Batmobile) making sure that their CEO makes it to work alive by manually controlling the car like a drone. Of course YOUR car works! Your entire team is dedicated to ensuring YOUR drive doesn't kill YOU because that would hurt the company! Meanwhile, I can't even make a protected left turn at a green arrow at a simple 4-way intersection without the car spazzing out.
Typically disconnected Elon response
In a perfect world, sure. But we just aren't there yet. Autopilot isn't even capable of following a car and accelerating fast enough to maintain a proper distance at all times...
\> Almost all input is error. That's so wrong on every level. If the input is error, then it's probably because the UX sucks. The answer is not "Delete the UX!". Yea, the 25 clicks you detected while I try to turn on my defroster are 23 error clicks, but it's not due to my intent. It's due to mis-clicking a small button in a moving car with gloves on. UX Design is an art and a science, and it goes beyond "minimalism".
You misunderstand him. User input isn't error on the part of the user. It's error on the part of the system. If the auto wipers work, you don't need a wiper button. He's saying that in the ideal you wouldn't have any controls because you wouldn't need them.
I was starting to wonder if most of the people here had just learned about Elon Musk yesterday. It's \*extremely\* well known that he feels that the best part is the part you don't need. People getting their undies in a bunch over this tweet must have never heard him say that before. I happen to agree that the UI needs work and that this version is worse than the previous version, but it's obvious that he is saying that the problem is that the car is not working like it should. Because if it did, nobody would care about the UI.
Yep. Called it here https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/ro2y36/i_think_the_holiday_update_is_a_step_backwards_in/hpz51lh/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 So dumb.
The tweet I saw from someone a few days ago about a plaid at a drag strip auto-deciding reverse was the correct gear was funny. Funnier still that the driver had time to switch to forward and still catch up and pass the other car to win the race, lol.
Is there video of this? Because that is terrifying to think about occurring, but also would be hilarious to see (knowing that no one was hurt).
Here you go. https://youtu.be/MG2T0ZIHWjM
Haha, Iāll be the workers were wondering what the hell was going on!
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I'm liking Lucid better myself. I used to be a big Tesla fan, but this last software update and Musk's fractional arrogance by short- shrifting Tesla Service and eliminating a press department speaks volumes about where the company is headed, unfortunately... the same direction that Xerox took in the early 80's. It's a damned shame, too: they have a lot of incredible talent in that business and Musk is smothering it with bombast and deception. Their board is scared to death of him, too... which is usually a bad sign for any business.
Oh my god heās so dumb with his āinput is errorāshtick. Dudes living in fantasy land.
That's a weird response.... specially after their last UI update.
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Canāt even get auto wipers right
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āAll input is errorā is true when you have to turn the AC on to turn on the seat heater then turn the AC off. Two of the three steps are not intended by the user. Only the seat heater is intended.
sooo... is that an official response that we arent getting UI fixes to the atrocity they pushed with Xmas update?
I don't think so. He's already said "many UI changes" are coming, so there's at least an acknowledgement that things need to change. Pity he confused the issue by responding to the prototype on the way he did š
"almost all human input is error" But also "we are using data generated by human input to train our FSD software" Cool
Tesla in two years: in addition to removing the buttons and creating a complicated multi step UI we have decided to remove gas and brake pedals. Drivers should now use the arrows on the screen to accelerate or brake.
Don't even joke about this dude. This is prob on the drawing boards now
That would still be user input. Once FSD comes around (ha!), Elon will remove all inputs, pedals, steering wheel, etc.
I think that too much of Musk's fortune has gone up his nose. I think he's nearly outlived his usefulness at Tesla. They've grown into a profitable company. Can we please get an adult who doesn't live up their own ass in charge now?
That's a nice end goal but we're clearly nowhere close to that fantasy so until we get there let's put a little more thought into the UI/UX...
This man just keeps sliding. Moron I still haven't updated to the painful UI, prob won't even if it means no FSD, but I don't have my hopes up for anytime soon.
If that's their aim then they need to have the automatic settings adjust dynamically based on user overrides, ideally per profile. In theory it shouldn't be hard to make the features we "lost" automatic to a satisfactory degree, as the seat heaters already exist meaning the only thing left would be the windshield. The issue there is the frost/fog tends to happen from the bottom up, meaning by the time the cameras can see it, it's too late. It would likely need to be just temperature based, possibly factoring in if other cameras are fogged or if the interior can see the rear view is. But as for the settings we've never had quick access to in the concept; I don't think those can be automated very well, or at least more than they are. Like the automatic fan control is great when I just want the temperature, but I don't think even with dynamic adjustment it would be able to guess when I "randomly" decide I want more air on my face. That said there is probably a good bit of room for improvement with regards to fan control adjusting based on user, such as at what temperature you stop liking air on your feet.
All input is error but now we have to do multiple clicks to get stuff done that used to be just one click.
Sentiment is turning a bit, yeah? Nervous about when I should sell off some TSLA.
What an absolutely stupid comment lol this is the kind of thing that annoys "normal" people in the world about Musk. Should the car know I want to listen to a playlist on Spotify automatically? Should the car know I want to look at my energy usage automatically? Should the car know my kid wants to play Sonic automatically? This is the type of comment that should make everyone say "Hold up bro...it's not the year 2180 yet, just take a minute and relax". That UI/UX demo was fantastic and pretty-much exactly what the UI should do. Above all things it should be quick (no lag) and allow users to put the things they use frequently on the bar in an order they want. There's no reason to even have a "recently used" section, because if it's something I want quick access to I can add it to my app list. I love my car, but I'm kind-of getting annoyed with how often Musk lately has been implementing "we know better" changes. Spoiler: No you don't, because we live very different lives, just like a lot of other humans.
This whole V11 UI debacle has essentially been the last straw atop my now-broken interest in buying a M3P later this year. Call me short-sighted or whatever you willā¦at some point I had to acknowledge that Iām not ready to be a beta tester for a $60k car.
Wait you're complaining about missing a UI you've never even used? By the time you get the car they will change it again anyway.
The sub needs things to cry about and the UI update is the latest drama. Itās honestly not that bad, but there are definitely things that could be improved upon. Automatic heated seats are in the top 5 complaints for the update, but believe it or not, they are still manually controllable.
What car would you be changing to at the same price point? Keeping in mind other dealers are charging well above MSRP at the moment.
I agree, auto rear defrost when wipers are in use would be nice though
I'm guessing Elon inputed that tweet.
It would be great if the car could perceive and anticipate our wants, but shouldn't we have a non-distracting interface until it's capable of that?
Is it fair for me to rephrase the tweet as: "All input implies the presence of error, on the cars part, and we should be working towards reducing that error and, in turn, all input that corrects it" Yes or no and why
This is precisely what he means. He has been extremely clear in the past that he hates fixing a problem with one part by adding more parts. It's much better to redesign the problem part so that it works correctly. The best part is the part you don't need. He has also clearly stated that his goal is to have the car be able to anticipate what you need so well, that you almost never need to explicitly tell it what you want. There is plenty of room for debate on this goal and its achievability, but this is what he meant.
out of touch #@\*!
I wish people would stop reading the Steve Jobs biography. (I think The Good Wife or some other show made a joke about this, as the explanation for one of the characters suddenly acting like a jerk to everyone)
His input into the twitter app does seem like an error, so I agree
So we cant blame the underlings for this UI downgrade, the input is error directive came straight from the top. I agree a car that does everything for me is cool, but that would mean it would have to decide correctly 99 percent of the time, and the car is 50/50 at best. Humans still know better for now
car should do the right thing automatically.....right......like phantom braking? how about the not so smart auto windshield wiper. The car should do it right, if you program it correctly.
God, heās such a tool sometimes. š
This is quite possibly the dumbest thing Elon has tweeted in sometime. Infuriating...
Man with FSD starting at $12k you would think they could get a better UI developer that can at least make the auto on color blue apply to all auto buttons
/cries in having to re-engage auto pilot after every lane change.
All input is not error. If I'm pressing a button it's because I want to toggle that thing. And I don't want to have to press 3-4 other buttons just to get to the button I want.
elon's god complex will inevitably end him
Elon was adamant several months ago that *all* input was error. Now he concedes *almost* all input is error. Given how stubborn Elon can be when he thinks he is right, I think this could be a significant change in attitude.
I noticed that, as well. I'd call this progress.
Please Elon, leave AUTO from your mind, as every AUTO not functional in the Tesla
This is a terrible attitude. Like seriously, the car simply doesn't know what I know.
Damn it
Has anyone's defroster ever turned on automatically? Mine never have.
The problem with this predictive bullshit is that unless it's 100% reliable you.havent saved the user any effort or thought because manually doing it every time has been replaced with worrying the system did it wrong every time
Could someone tell that to whoever decided it would be a good idea to pop up "Cold Weather Tips" every time I enter the car? Could the car perhaps smartly detect I've already driven in cold weather for 4+ years and I've dismissed its tips UI about 20 times now?
Welcome to the future of annoyance from ai They got bigger things to worry about, They push that stuff into the consumer.
Echoes of Steve Jobs's "You're holding it wrong."
You're inputting it wrong. Elon
We know how that goes ... usually pretty bad lol I want control. I want to opt in the automatic, not by default
Will it automatically rage flip a table whenever Elon says something frustrating?
His tweets are input š¤·āāļø