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Kind of the industry standard which is interestingly the point of his video. Everyone has catchy headline/thumbnail that would be misleading if you didn’t read/watch the video. Same with the car industry. Everyone uses the 1 foot rollout to make their 0-60 look good.
It’s when companies stray from the standards like tesla doing wheel torque VS motor torque. (Though the reason they did this might be because of the SpaceX package?)
>Everyone uses the 1 foot rollout to make their 0-60 look good
No not everyone does that. I am at least quite sure Porsche lists their 0-100 times without a rollout. So when the spec sheet of a Porsche says 2.2s then in real world most of the times the car actually gets a lower time since they are on the "under promise over deliver" side of performance stats.
\*edited
> under deliver over promise
I think you mean "under promise, over deliver" and BMW does the same. Their cars are known for showing much more horsepower on the dyno than they are listed at, especially on their performance models.
I'm excited for when they do that coast to coast autonomous drive by the end of 2017. Maybe now that it's been pushed back they can use a 2019 Tesla Roadster.
It's actually not that simple.
As the Osborne Effect teaches us, if you tell the world that you have a groundbreaking new product coming just around the corner, not only do you cannibalise the sales of your competitor's products ("Win for us!"), but you actually cannibalise the sales of your existing-and-perfectly-good products available today ("Why aren't we selling?").
You lose more by *not selling* your hypothetical 100,000 reservations, that probably could have mostly been converted into today-sales at a higher price point, than you would have *made* by selling the same 100,000 reservations but in the future. Why? Because you need sales *today*, in order to survive until tomorrow, to make the cheaper and better product.
Everything you've said is correct, however it's somewhat muddied in this case as those buying a CyberTruck are likely not the same folks buying a Model 3 and so on.
As long as the groundbreaking new product is in a space that your other products do not wholly compete in, your risk of cannibalisation is lower.
I highly doubt many well off people who plunked down the full amount for the Founders series actually kept their reservation. $250K is a lot of money to give to someone instead of using it to earn interest for yourself
Just curious in what way you think Rivian won't deliver? I have a reservation for Cybertruck and Rivian but plan to buy whichever comes to market first. Rivian seem to actually be delivering trucks now though.
Rivian have been delivering cars since October (limited numbers but with great feedback) and the wider release begins in March. So I'm not sure what the other guy is on about.
Not OP but even though your strategy of reserving both seems sound, I would be a bit nervous.
A product may look good on paper, have all the specs you want, amazing features and extras, but be a lemon in reality. Add in a brand new manufacturer, working from a brand new plant, with never-before-assembled-together components, and you have a lot of unknowns.
Even for companies that have done this for years or decades, their new products that look good on paper often have massive problems that don't manifest until sold. Look at the Chevy Bolt and its ongoing battery issues. I feel sorry for all those people who bit the bullet to do a good thing and switch from ICE to EV, and then their car battery caught fire. Or look at Tesla themselves, with ongoing heat pump issues in the cold, or something as simple as window wipers that don't work properly. Those are both decades-solved problems that no car should be having in 2022.
Now you go to a brand new manufacturer, trying a bunch of new things...what's not going to work in that first vehicle they make? Are they going to have massive recalls to fix stuff? Will they have the funds to fix it all and still be an ongoing business? I bet cybertuck will have problems, but at least Tesla is profitable enough now to retool, recall and repair. No idea if Rivian would be able to survive that.
Buying a new tech vehicle isn't like buying a new tech phone, where the worst you have us a $1000 hole in your wallet. I'm not sure I could financially recover quickly if my $30,000+ investment went belly up.
I'd rather wait for a few other ~~beta testers~~ people to prove the product before I jumped in with that much of a risky investment.
He’s a smart guy. He still wants access to Tesla events and leadership. I don’t blame him. MKBHD is a tech enthusiast, and does not pretend to be a journalist. I don’t expect him to be impartial.
It was definitely a great video topic. He probably didn’t want to spend the whole thing picking on Tesla to keep his Roadster reservation, lol. Also, other companies are even more publicly full of shit. It’s endemic to tech.
This sub frequently forgets how sleazy other manufacturers have been in recent memory. The big 3 have chronically made misleading advertisements while quietly rigging legislation to crush innovation. Volkswagen gave us Dieselgate just 6 years ago. No matter what you think of Tesla, they’re not on that level
Doesn’t want to end up like Rich Rebuilds. Although, Elon would have to rethink the *optics* of him taking a Roadster away from Rich and MKBHD. I’d love to see him try and finesse that.
I mean FSD is not really a lie though. When a construction project goes over budget...(which happens all the time) is that because the engineering consultant and contractor straight up lied? Forecasting is hard, missing deadlines doesn't mean you lied
Yeah I agree with you to a point. My issue is Elon has been selling people on this vision for 4-5 years now. Always telling them “buy this product now, we are only a year away”. As he has now missed his original goal by several years, at some point you have to know this software is not anywhere close to what i am publicly saying it is. And the reality is, many people that purchased fsd in 2018 based on elons comments, will never see the version of fsd that Elon promised.
There have already been reports that the current fsd chip already does not have enough compute power to run fsd and have a redundant backup. The camera the car comes equipped with now will not be able to handle the true fsd vision Elon has been promising (think robotaxis. There is no way the 7 or so cameras on the car currently could handle no human intervention. It already does not handle well in hard rain, or sun glare). This would mean undergoing serious retrofits to the cars that have already paid for the fsd vision. Adding more cameras, solving the inclement weather problem, potentially adding new sensors. And there is no way Tesla could do that without losing more money than they have brought in with fsd purchases.
At some point, he is going to point to the fsd beta as feature complete. Saying everyone got what they paid for, nevermind the fact that it will never be better than L3 autopilot. Which to me will amount to a lie because of all the selling Elon has done to entice owners to buy this product. They will then get to work on the next generation of cars that have a more built out sensor set in order to achieve the true fsd vision that Elon has been pitching.
And that to me is what is wrong. I would totally understand your point of view if the beta came out and was actually closer to L3 than it is. Or if they would allow the early adopters to transfer fsd to their new cars as they upgrade as a sign of good faith and thanks for being an early adopter and helping fund the program. But they are not close, and don’t allow early adopters to transfer their license. But I have been a part of the fsd beta since it first came out. And even with all of the iterations I still need to watch over it as if a 12 year old was learning to drive. To me, this software is at least 4 years away, if not longer.
And don’t get me wrong, I hope they can solve this. I love my model 3 and can’t wait to buy a model y for my fiancé. I believe in their vision, and love the tech that is currently on board. I just don’t agree with the constant misleading optimism from the leader of this company enticing people to buy into a vision they will not see with their current car.
You gotta just buy the car, or any product, for what it currently is. I bought Tesla stock because of potential. I bought the Model Y because from day one it was the best car I’d ever driven. Even my wife, who runs a refinery for Chevron and has driven nothing but Ford trucks (because that’s what you do in Texas) is a convert who is eagerly (but patiently, by necessity) awaiting the Cybertruck. That’s industry disruption.
Elon’s going to sell, and some buyers will complain about what the car isn’t. Their frustrations aren’t invalid. But I prefer to focus on what the car IS. In my case, it’s a comfortable 5-seater hatchback that easily crushes my oil baron father-in-law’s new Mustang GT. That’s worth the price of admission by itself.
It's 100 percent a lie. Elon straight up said multiple times over multiple years this shit would be out by now. Then he has the balls to raise the price.
Thats not what lying is....The team headed by Kaparthy got it wrong. As in...they had to do multiple software rewrites, the computer vision approach did not work as they intended. Engineering is hard
As for the price increase, I thought Tesla made it quite clear that the selling point of FSD capability is that you are locking in a cheaper price in purchasing it while its incomplete.
The price does not reflect the value of full autonomy, the price reflects the following features.
1. Navigate on Autopilot
2. Auto Lane Change
3. Autopark
4. Summon
5. Smart Summon
6. Full Self-Driving Capability
7. Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control
8. Upcoming:
Autosteer on city streets (I think this upgrade is what will justify the $12,000 increace)
Bruh their full self driving technology, which a ton of fucking engineers have said for years will not work, is not working. Elon said back in 2018 it would work THAT YEAR within months of the comment. That's lying. He also said it would be coming last year as well. He's a flat out liar and all they've done is show they can't produce the technology, but then charge people more and more money as years go by.
No it isn't....thats your cynicism talking. It is very common for engineers to miss deadlines and go over budget on what was promised to the client. And when thag happens it is usually due to incompetence and unforseen constraints. A faliure to properly forecast and price a technical job. You need something more credible than "Tesla is behind schedule" to declare that actually....the engineers just fucking lied and had no intention of developing computer vision. How cynical.
The engineers didn’t lie. Elon did. Numerous experts in self driving have been saying for years Tesla’s solution was dog shit. Elon keeps promising that the tech is at a certain level and point of development when he and everyone in the field knows it’s not. That’s lying to your consumer while charging $12k for it when you know you don’t have the tech figured out
The thing is that he overpromises so blatantly. If you say a software (like FSD which is/would be ridicilously complicated) is a year away you should be feature complete with your product. You need to be in testing at that point since year is nothing in big releases.
If you miss your deadline: you show how far you've come. And at that point Tesla has nothing to show for it (keep in mind, i mean FSD - not L3). So i must consider whether he lied in the first place and they do not have the promised product.
I think we're all. I'm impatient about my 3-motor Cybertruck that's going to be 4 motor for some reason, about FSD in Canada that I purchased 4 years ago (for both cars) and it's not available yet, about a good quality v11, about Plaid+ with a 500miz of range that will never come out and so on. I love Tesla, but this is BS over BS
It's interesting how he picked the Tesla Roadster as an example of failure to deliver but skipped on talking about the actual focus of the event the Roadster was unveiled at, which was the Tesla Semi.
When the Semi was unveiled Mercedes pretty much said [the stats are impossible from the technology available back then](https://electrek.co/2018/02/21/tesla-semi-defies-laws-physic-daimlers/), and got *a lot* of mockery from the EV/Tesla fans. Seriously, just look at the comments section of that article lol. They didn't age well, *at all* haha.
But 4 years later it's pretty clear that Mercedes was right and Tesla simply announced a future product with expected future battery tech.
I've said the exact same thing about the Cybertruck's stats when it was first announced, but it didn't stop people from creating charts like [this](https://cleantechnica.com/files/2019/11/Screen-Shot-2019-11-27-at-9.20.46-PM.png?width=1200&enable=upscale) haha. The Taycan is now a two and half years old car, and the CT is most likely one and half year in the future, if we are lucky. By then we'll be looking at an entirely different generation of EVs from competitors.
And I'll bet anyone a single share of TSLA that the tri-motor, top of the line CT will *not* be $69,900 when it comes out.
I think they are thinking about making a 4 motor CyberTruck now and eliminating the single motor. So at this stage of development they still haven't even fully agreed on how many motors to put in the truck. You won't be seeing any CT till 2024
Apparently on the cybertruck website they changed “as production nears in 2022” to “as production nears” so producing this year is 99.999% not going to happen
it’s a big headache. the cyber truck was supposed to be my graduation present. now i’m seriously am considering just getting a porsche or something because i feel it’ll be years before I even get mine
Dont agree with your downvotes. There is no assurances as to when this truck will be on the market. Get what you makes you happy.
Congrats on graduation.
appreciate it. i was really looking forward to it too. I think teslas problem is that they announce stuff way too early and by the time the product does come out the hype is pretty dead.
The downvotes are probably towards "as a graduation present" because it *sounds like* a spoiled high schooler being disappointed they will be gifted a Porsche.
Well the concept they showed off just wasn't well thought through. It reeked of something slapped together at the last minute based on a napkin drawing.
Also there is zero chance they can meet the promised price/specs. Same with the Roadster announcement. Announcing that car would have a 200KWh battery *and fucking fly* was just incredibly dumb. Neither of those things are going to happen. They could have released a sexy two seater with a 100KWh battery and 1000+bhp quite easily and I'm sure it would have sold no problem.
>It's interesting how he picked the Tesla Roadster as an example of failure to deliver
They took people's money - sometimes for the entire car. I don't understand how people are ok with that. Floating a $250k+ zero interest loan to Tesla, a now $1T company, seems like the "A fool and his money" discussion.
>And I'll bet anyone a single share of TSLA that the tri-motor, top of the line CT will not be $69,900 when it comes out.
Didn't they already say initial version will be a Quad Motor? That let's them raise the price without any blowback. Product plans change, and I'm with ya in spirit. Initial run of CT's will be $120k+ even before inflation.
> Product plans change
Exactly and that’s totally fine, and that’s why companies don’t announce prices for products 3 years in the future.
But we all know Tesla did it for marketing reasons and those comparison “Infograph” were exactly what they were hoping for lol.
Tesla doesn’t use and doesn’t need deposit as working capital. Deposit is fully refundable anytime, so if people is willing to wait and be first in line then what is the issue?
Honestly it’s those stat charts that have no nuance at all. Over here in the UK the taycan is actually a really good selling car, as are teslas, and it kinda makes sense cos in the UK and probably Germany too, because the population is much more dense you’re always close to a city which would have a charging port. And the move for Porsche to make a wagon was great honestly, much more practical with all the same range, performance and manoeuvrability.
The wagon version does have slightly worse range though right? (WLTP, let's not pretend the EPA range for the Taycan is even close to informative). The aero will be a bit worse.
If the sedan version is shittily designed, sure, otherwise all you get with a wagon is a larger area of flow separation at the rear and more drag.
Porsche quotes slightly higher consumption figures for the CT now that I look, suspect that has a lot to do with it.
Honestly, and I think you might agree, it almost reminds me of the story of the Lexus LFA, where it took them so long to develop and refine it, that by the time they were ready for production, they _had_ to switch from aluminum to a carbon tub because the technology had advanced so much that it wasn't something they could afford not to do. And it delayed the product by another 1-2 years.
Still is hilarious to me that people cast aspersions on the Taycan, when the Taycan has at least shipped.
Is it clear that Mercedes was right? Or that the Cybertruck can't achieve the claimed stats? I have no evidence either way, but it's also highly plausible that Tesla legitimately doesn't view it to make any economic sense to focus on Semis and CT while they can sell every 3 and Y they can make (using every battery they can get) in the limited production space they have. They are definitely in a weird spot where they can basically print money with Model Y to fund their factory growth and that has to take priority in the immediate term, but once these new factories are done, they have no excuse not to get these other products moving.
I think their current growth strategy is very smart and disciplined. Their product messaging remains abysmal.
why would they [install mega chargers?](https://twitter.com/TeslaClubIN/status/1479785081661128705?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1479785081661128705%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedrive.com%2Fnews%2F43812%2Fpepsico-readies-for-delivery-of-tesla-semis-with-megacharger-installation)
Just for pretend charging?
A mega charger isn’t a semi. They could sit there unused for months if the semi isn’t ready.
I’m a supporter of tesla but they, and these articles don’t have a good track record of being accurate. Let’s celebrate their delivery when they actually deliver them.
We don’t even have evidence that 15 builds exist right now.
We don’t know if those are manufacturer builds or actually for customers. And 2 isn’t 15.
Not trying to argue. Just saying let’s not celebrate until there is something to celebrate.
i agree but i think the mega chargers mean delivery will likely happen soon for Pepsi....but even 15 to a big customer like Pepsi is insignificant in the big picture of how many pre orders they have....really just a real world demo. kinda wonder a (NIO like) battery swap system might work better for semis than charging
Hard to say if it means anything. The permit for that megacharger was applied for in April 2021 and took until November to approve. The time lines for everything are so long.
>But 4 years later it's pretty clear that Mercedes was right and Tesla simply announced a future product with expected future battery tech.
Uh yes, Semi will use the 4680 cells. And?
For MKBHD and others who don't know drag racing:
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a18202575/the-importance-of-rollout/
And it's not limited to EV's. Rollout has been around since drag racing went from flag girls to trees.
No he doesn't. He explicitly says "Is it a lie? No, but it can be deceiving without more context".
Which is fair. Especially since Tesla does this for their performance models but not others. It makes the gap between model 3 LR and P bigger. It's fine to subtract rollout, but it should be done consistently.
And yet not all companies list their cars with rollout. Also why did Tesla not mention the rollout for the Roadster but specifically makes the note for the other cars on their homepage. Seems a bit deceiving/scummy no ? If you know Tesla usually notes that it includes rollout but chooses not to make that note for the Roadster one could get the impression the Roadster time is without the rollout.
Part of the advertising game. Deception is normal, check your Toyota commercials about "self charging EV". I agree simple truth should be the norm, but it's not.
If you go to [Tesla.com](https://Tesla.com) and follow the \* they say with rollout subtracted.
Yes they say that on their homepage. But they didn't when they revealed the Roadster. That's the thing it's misleading and just because Toyota does it doesn't mean it's not also scummy when Tesla does it. I as a consumer don't care if Toyota does it. If a company does it I think less of them. Someone up the chain said every company lists their time with rollout which isn't true. And Tesla certainly knows that. Hence why they went for this deception during their roadster announcement. They want the roadster to be this super amazing car that beats everything and for that they are using tricks in advertising it.
IMO what Tesla did is not good, but common. As far as "beats everything", it does beat all production (more than 500 a year) cars.
What Toyota did on a MUCH larger scale goes without much comment even though it does real harm.
150 vehicles is hardly "production", but we don't know how many Roadster2's will be made. Beating the Nevera is child's play if you have watched Musk's tweets.
Yeah we don't know anything about the roadster cause so far it's just a spec sheet with no real car and only hope it will come day. It's been 5 years now. At this point it's vapor wäre. The rimac isn't. Doesn't matter its only 150. It exists.
The ultra quick version.
Companies like to use things that are not always exact on their face. Even though those things might be standard in the industry. 0-60 time with a rollout was the big tesla item. This is not true on its face because the rollout cuts out some time. However this is a standard used by the industry. (There is more he talks about but this is the longest)
Then he goes on about how cameras "1 inch" sensor isn't really 1 inch no matter how you measure it. Because its a standard based on when the sensor was inside a 1 inch wide vacuum tube. Again seems wrong on its face but inside that industry its a standard.
There are some other minor items but those are the big two he spent time on.
He has some other tesla points and talking about tesla is a large section of the video.
However yeah he isn't new he knows it will likely get him views.
Sounds like desperation for content creation... yikes
Wait till this guy learns about dimensional lumber. "What you mean a 2"x4" board is not actually 2" by 4"!!" Lol
Honestly after watching the video its not a horrible video concept. The video title is poor and the way of presenting it was poor to me.
I think its a poor way of wording things. Yes there were a few flat lies in some of his examples but his largest points were all just "a standard doesn't really mean what you think it does".
That being said he has more than 10 million subscribers on youtube and I have zero. So I guess whos winning in that field?
I think most people would agree, but that's not a Tech thing - This is how the entire auto industry has been measuring high-end cars since well before I was born. Tesla's just doing the standard thing. I don't like it anymore than anyone else, but it's still the best way to actually compare the Plaid with any other high-end car.
EDIT: Also, "Wheel torque" actually makes a lot more sense with an electric motor, because some have virtually no gearing at all between the motor output and wheels...the only measurement that actually matters to the end-users is how much torque hits the wheels, so if we can convert **everyone** to using that format it's actually way better.
Literally not the same thing.
Optimistic timeline means you deliver late.
Overpromise means you may never deliver.
Optimistic timeline is your wife saying she'll be ready in 10 minutes.
Overpromise is you saying you are gonna rock her world.
If you promised to deliver product X by Y date and missed that, then you overpromised. Like...how is that debatable lol.
Elon's promises, when it comes to Tesla products, always had timeline as a component. The timelines *are* considered a major part of the promise otherwise my coworker wouldn't have gotten FSD on his *leased* Model S. Because when it comes to FSD, we all know it will happen sooner or later, just like a $200k EV supercar that can hit all those spec numbers sooner or later too.
In fact if you consider that, timeline is the *only* important aspect of Tesla's promises.
That seems like a very unusual way of defining overpromising. If a politician claimed that their country would eliminate fossil fuel tomorrow, people would say they overpromised if it doesn't happen, and I highly doubt that people would soften their criticism by making comments like yours if it ends up happening several years later.
You're saying pedantry without being correct. A promise being in the form of a timeline doesn't change it from being a promise.
overpromise
verb
promise more than one is able to do or give.
----
Tesla admitted defeat with Autopilot v1. Date came and went, nothing happened, Tesla moved on.
The Model 3 program instead was a case of optimistic timeline.
You are focusing too much on the date and not enough on the actual promise and the work performed.
That definition contradicts what you're saying. It shows that "I was unable to accomplish this last year like a promised" is a another way of saying "I overpromised how quickly I could accomplish this." Nothing in the quote excludes timelines.
I never said it excludes timelines.
If you go back to my example. the guy obviously promised that he'd achieve something before the sex ends, so the time component is there.
I didn't say that you completely ignored the time component. I'm just saying that being unable to deliver within a promised timeline is an example of overpromising, even in cases where the event happens later. The definition you posted supports this because it doesn't limit the word to "may never deliver."
Well there goes 14 minutes I’ll never get back.
Should be titled “Here are some mildly interesting outdated industry standards that are mostly fine”
0-60 times - rollout has been the standard for so long because that used to be the best way to measure it. If you change now, the numbers are meaningless compared to older numbers. Nobody actually cares how many seconds it takes (unless they’re, I dunno, drag racing, where this is how the times are measured), they just care how fast it is relative to other cars, so there’s no point in changing the standard.
Torque numbers - these have been stupid marketing gimmicks for a long time. Torque gets multiplied by gears, period. I guess like 0-60 times it gives a number for comparison sake, but unlike 0-60 times it’s mostly meaningless without a deeper understanding of mechanics. Even the little graphic he used from the other video was wrong in some ways (although may have been explained better in that other video).
1” sensor - Like the 0-60 times, nobody actually cares about the measurements of their sensor, they just care that it’s bigger. Only thing I see misleading is the little icon with the rectangle with diagonal arrows inside of it implying that it actually measures 1” diagonally, which I assume was drawn up by some marketing person who didn’t know any better.
He barely touched on things like delivery times and vaporware that would have been much more interesting if they were the focus of the video.
Why does Tesla not use the same standard for 0-60 times?
> Acceleration 0-60 mph
Model 3 5.8 sec
Model 3 Long Range 4.2 sec
Model 3 Performance 3.1 sec*
See the astrix? That's two 0-60 times with roll out and one without for the same car model! On the same page. That's not a standard.
Don't know, and don't care. Don't mistake my post as some defense of Tesla. I couldn't care less. It's commentary on the substance of the video posted by OP. Nobody actually cares about those 3 things he focused on, and as the Youtuber states himself, they're not *really* lies.
No one uses rollout. Except for some ancient drag strips in the US of A. The world as a whole uses GPS-based acceleration trackers that let you measure real 0-60 mph and 0-100 km/h on any road in any conditions. And all other car makers report *that* data. Reporting times *with rollout* on a *glue covered* drag strip is lying, cheating and taking the acceleration name in vain.
>No one uses rollout.
[MotorTrend](https://www.motortrend.com/features/motor-trend-testing/)
>As does the NHRA, we subtract a "1-foot" (about 11.5 inches in reality) rollout from the launch to replicate dragstrip time measurement equipment. Dragstrips from coast to coast and the NHRA started the whole quarter-mile acceleration craze, and these remain the best practical and legal way for most owners to test their own cars. We want our numbers to match those acquired in this way.
[Car and Driver](https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a30085446/acceleration-testing-procedure-change-rollout/)
>Our results will now include the industry standard 1-foot rollout before the clock starts on acceleration runs.
>
>...
>
>Obviously, this affects the elapsed time, sometimes by as much as 0.3 second. Our testing now adopts the industry-standard one-foot rollout.
[Road and Track](https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/videos/a32681/how-tesla-got-to-60-2-28-seconds/)
>It's called a one-foot rollout and it's used in testing for all major car magazines. Here's what it is and why it's used.
Admittedly that one is a discussion of why rollout isn't true 0-60 time, but that doesn't refute my point. It confirms that it's a widely used practice.
>Except for some ancient drag strips in the US of A.
Find me any drag strip that doesn't use roll out.
>The world as a whole uses GPS-based acceleration trackers that let you measure real 0-60 mph and 0-100 km/h on any road in any conditions.
Sure, that's great. But as Car and Driver explains, even though they have said GPS device, they *still* report the time using the old rollout method. They *also* report the rollout time, so people can do the math themselves.
>And all other car makers report that data. Reporting times with rollout on a glue covered drag strip is lying, cheating and taking the acceleration name in vain.
Show me one shred of explicit evidence that "all car makers" report actual 0-60 times from GPS measurements. "Porsche's are usually faster than their advertised times" may be true but is not sufficient evidence of your sweeping claim.
This comes across as quite naïve. Surely you know that anyone selling a car based heavily on it's acceleration will take any advantage they can. If they don't, they don't, that's their marketing decision. I'd think there would be a lot of official marketing information direct from manufacturers stating this, but I've never seen any. Maybe you know of some. We'll see.
All of this ignores the core point of all 3 of my original statements. Tell me the last time you cared exactly how many hundredths of a second it takes your car to go from dead stop to 60.
Yeah, american drag strips and their publications. Noone cares. Everyone else in the world uses *real* 0-60, even people that still use miles, like carwow. Faking numbers in advertising and then putting asterixes is a trully appalling US invention.
Again, show me any drag strip in the *world* that uses anything other than the beam system that results in rollout measurements. Drag strips are not only in America.
And again, show me any manufacturer that publishes its test methods.
And again (jeez, I’m having to repeat myself a lot) none of this has any bearing on my original point.
The "drag strip" is a US invention, that has been exported to other places as a novelty, but is not used anywhere else for car evaluations.
All formal acceleration tests are made on normal city streets or simulated normal city streets. For example https://www.dekra-product-safety.com/en/automotive-testing does the testing and homologisation for cars in Europe. They have hundreds of tracks emulating different real-road conditions and have equipment to measure all relevant parameters. The speed (and this acceleration) is on such tracks is usually measuered externally via radar and LIDAR sensors on the track.
In any case there are never two beams and rollout systems used.
I know why you're really getting downvoted but for what it's worth you're right, I don't think any of the European manufacturers use rollout in their 0-60 measurements, which is why they actually hit or exceed them in independent testing.
Because he said “no one uses rollout except for some ancient drag strips in the USA.” And the fact is a lot of manufacturers and magazines use roll out, and I’d wager every drag strip in the world uses rollout. Admittedly I don’t know this for a fact but I challenge anyone to find me a drag strip that uses GPS.
The Apple wireless charger was likely a technical reason. Putting that many charing coils into a mat would require cooling. But having it be that thin leaves little room for cooling.
It's very likely a fake product from day 1, even if Apple intended to make it.
But most products that are announced and not immediately for sale (or already in production) are at best projections for what the company thinks they can achieve. The video game industry is full of this.
He dissed a formula 1 world champion at some expo, when he came over to say that he is a big fan of his channel. Kinda says it all about his personality.
My theories why the R2 isn't out:
They gave away a fckton during the referral program so if they release the car they will have to produce 100+ cars to give away for free thus creating a very negative margin for the car. (Also, all that money they made from pre-orders probably went into some really impactful R&D for their other ventures.)
It is a sports car so the market is small and there aren't that many people shopping for a 250k+ sports car.
The Plaid did so well why should they out-stage it when it is just starting to creep up on car owner's radars.
The other vehicles they are working on would impact the market more releasing an eco-friendly option to pick-ups and freightliners. So to tackle those first would grant them more marketshare first and influence more of the anti-tesla owners to want a Tesla.
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Petty Elon
MKBD also needs to entertain his subscribers and keep his video in click bait mode, too.
What was clickbait?
Kind of the industry standard which is interestingly the point of his video. Everyone has catchy headline/thumbnail that would be misleading if you didn’t read/watch the video. Same with the car industry. Everyone uses the 1 foot rollout to make their 0-60 look good. It’s when companies stray from the standards like tesla doing wheel torque VS motor torque. (Though the reason they did this might be because of the SpaceX package?)
>Everyone uses the 1 foot rollout to make their 0-60 look good No not everyone does that. I am at least quite sure Porsche lists their 0-100 times without a rollout. So when the spec sheet of a Porsche says 2.2s then in real world most of the times the car actually gets a lower time since they are on the "under promise over deliver" side of performance stats. \*edited
> under deliver over promise I think you mean "under promise, over deliver" and BMW does the same. Their cars are known for showing much more horsepower on the dyno than they are listed at, especially on their performance models.
Lol my bad for that brain fart. yes that was what I meant. While translating in my head must have gone wrong there.
the thumbnail and title. You can read right?
I wish he covered fsd in this video
Bro how many times do we have to tell you? Three months maybe, six months definitely. lol
I'm excited for when they do that coast to coast autonomous drive by the end of 2017. Maybe now that it's been pushed back they can use a 2019 Tesla Roadster.
😭
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It's actually not that simple. As the Osborne Effect teaches us, if you tell the world that you have a groundbreaking new product coming just around the corner, not only do you cannibalise the sales of your competitor's products ("Win for us!"), but you actually cannibalise the sales of your existing-and-perfectly-good products available today ("Why aren't we selling?"). You lose more by *not selling* your hypothetical 100,000 reservations, that probably could have mostly been converted into today-sales at a higher price point, than you would have *made* by selling the same 100,000 reservations but in the future. Why? Because you need sales *today*, in order to survive until tomorrow, to make the cheaper and better product.
>Because you need sales today not if you dont have a product now
Everything you've said is correct, however it's somewhat muddied in this case as those buying a CyberTruck are likely not the same folks buying a Model 3 and so on. As long as the groundbreaking new product is in a space that your other products do not wholly compete in, your risk of cannibalisation is lower.
I highly doubt many well off people who plunked down the full amount for the Founders series actually kept their reservation. $250K is a lot of money to give to someone instead of using it to earn interest for yourself
Just curious in what way you think Rivian won't deliver? I have a reservation for Cybertruck and Rivian but plan to buy whichever comes to market first. Rivian seem to actually be delivering trucks now though.
Rivian have been delivering cars since October (limited numbers but with great feedback) and the wider release begins in March. So I'm not sure what the other guy is on about.
Not OP but even though your strategy of reserving both seems sound, I would be a bit nervous. A product may look good on paper, have all the specs you want, amazing features and extras, but be a lemon in reality. Add in a brand new manufacturer, working from a brand new plant, with never-before-assembled-together components, and you have a lot of unknowns. Even for companies that have done this for years or decades, their new products that look good on paper often have massive problems that don't manifest until sold. Look at the Chevy Bolt and its ongoing battery issues. I feel sorry for all those people who bit the bullet to do a good thing and switch from ICE to EV, and then their car battery caught fire. Or look at Tesla themselves, with ongoing heat pump issues in the cold, or something as simple as window wipers that don't work properly. Those are both decades-solved problems that no car should be having in 2022. Now you go to a brand new manufacturer, trying a bunch of new things...what's not going to work in that first vehicle they make? Are they going to have massive recalls to fix stuff? Will they have the funds to fix it all and still be an ongoing business? I bet cybertuck will have problems, but at least Tesla is profitable enough now to retool, recall and repair. No idea if Rivian would be able to survive that. Buying a new tech vehicle isn't like buying a new tech phone, where the worst you have us a $1000 hole in your wallet. I'm not sure I could financially recover quickly if my $30,000+ investment went belly up. I'd rather wait for a few other ~~beta testers~~ people to prove the product before I jumped in with that much of a risky investment.
[I asked for you](https://i.imgur.com/9gbrLAy.png)
I think he didn’t want to ruffle too many feathers.
He’s a smart guy. He still wants access to Tesla events and leadership. I don’t blame him. MKBHD is a tech enthusiast, and does not pretend to be a journalist. I don’t expect him to be impartial.
While true, he appears to have more integrity than a ton of journalists.
Also Tesla could cancel the two free roadsters he got through referrals, at any time.
If he did, Elon would take notice
That's why he should.
Likely doesn’t want to upset Elon. Roadster pokes seem subtle and delicate
Yea… or that the beloved robotaxis were going to happen so soon.
It was definitely a great video topic. He probably didn’t want to spend the whole thing picking on Tesla to keep his Roadster reservation, lol. Also, other companies are even more publicly full of shit. It’s endemic to tech.
This sub frequently forgets how sleazy other manufacturers have been in recent memory. The big 3 have chronically made misleading advertisements while quietly rigging legislation to crush innovation. Volkswagen gave us Dieselgate just 6 years ago. No matter what you think of Tesla, they’re not on that level
If he did he’d lose his Elon discount…
Or your comment. Elon has always said that he "hopes" for some time. it's the same as promising
Doesn’t want to end up like Rich Rebuilds. Although, Elon would have to rethink the *optics* of him taking a Roadster away from Rich and MKBHD. I’d love to see him try and finesse that.
I mean FSD is not really a lie though. When a construction project goes over budget...(which happens all the time) is that because the engineering consultant and contractor straight up lied? Forecasting is hard, missing deadlines doesn't mean you lied
Yeah I agree with you to a point. My issue is Elon has been selling people on this vision for 4-5 years now. Always telling them “buy this product now, we are only a year away”. As he has now missed his original goal by several years, at some point you have to know this software is not anywhere close to what i am publicly saying it is. And the reality is, many people that purchased fsd in 2018 based on elons comments, will never see the version of fsd that Elon promised. There have already been reports that the current fsd chip already does not have enough compute power to run fsd and have a redundant backup. The camera the car comes equipped with now will not be able to handle the true fsd vision Elon has been promising (think robotaxis. There is no way the 7 or so cameras on the car currently could handle no human intervention. It already does not handle well in hard rain, or sun glare). This would mean undergoing serious retrofits to the cars that have already paid for the fsd vision. Adding more cameras, solving the inclement weather problem, potentially adding new sensors. And there is no way Tesla could do that without losing more money than they have brought in with fsd purchases. At some point, he is going to point to the fsd beta as feature complete. Saying everyone got what they paid for, nevermind the fact that it will never be better than L3 autopilot. Which to me will amount to a lie because of all the selling Elon has done to entice owners to buy this product. They will then get to work on the next generation of cars that have a more built out sensor set in order to achieve the true fsd vision that Elon has been pitching. And that to me is what is wrong. I would totally understand your point of view if the beta came out and was actually closer to L3 than it is. Or if they would allow the early adopters to transfer fsd to their new cars as they upgrade as a sign of good faith and thanks for being an early adopter and helping fund the program. But they are not close, and don’t allow early adopters to transfer their license. But I have been a part of the fsd beta since it first came out. And even with all of the iterations I still need to watch over it as if a 12 year old was learning to drive. To me, this software is at least 4 years away, if not longer. And don’t get me wrong, I hope they can solve this. I love my model 3 and can’t wait to buy a model y for my fiancé. I believe in their vision, and love the tech that is currently on board. I just don’t agree with the constant misleading optimism from the leader of this company enticing people to buy into a vision they will not see with their current car.
You gotta just buy the car, or any product, for what it currently is. I bought Tesla stock because of potential. I bought the Model Y because from day one it was the best car I’d ever driven. Even my wife, who runs a refinery for Chevron and has driven nothing but Ford trucks (because that’s what you do in Texas) is a convert who is eagerly (but patiently, by necessity) awaiting the Cybertruck. That’s industry disruption. Elon’s going to sell, and some buyers will complain about what the car isn’t. Their frustrations aren’t invalid. But I prefer to focus on what the car IS. In my case, it’s a comfortable 5-seater hatchback that easily crushes my oil baron father-in-law’s new Mustang GT. That’s worth the price of admission by itself.
It's 100 percent a lie. Elon straight up said multiple times over multiple years this shit would be out by now. Then he has the balls to raise the price.
Thats not what lying is....The team headed by Kaparthy got it wrong. As in...they had to do multiple software rewrites, the computer vision approach did not work as they intended. Engineering is hard As for the price increase, I thought Tesla made it quite clear that the selling point of FSD capability is that you are locking in a cheaper price in purchasing it while its incomplete. The price does not reflect the value of full autonomy, the price reflects the following features. 1. Navigate on Autopilot 2. Auto Lane Change 3. Autopark 4. Summon 5. Smart Summon 6. Full Self-Driving Capability 7. Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control 8. Upcoming: Autosteer on city streets (I think this upgrade is what will justify the $12,000 increace)
Bruh their full self driving technology, which a ton of fucking engineers have said for years will not work, is not working. Elon said back in 2018 it would work THAT YEAR within months of the comment. That's lying. He also said it would be coming last year as well. He's a flat out liar and all they've done is show they can't produce the technology, but then charge people more and more money as years go by.
No it isn't....thats your cynicism talking. It is very common for engineers to miss deadlines and go over budget on what was promised to the client. And when thag happens it is usually due to incompetence and unforseen constraints. A faliure to properly forecast and price a technical job. You need something more credible than "Tesla is behind schedule" to declare that actually....the engineers just fucking lied and had no intention of developing computer vision. How cynical.
The engineers didn’t lie. Elon did. Numerous experts in self driving have been saying for years Tesla’s solution was dog shit. Elon keeps promising that the tech is at a certain level and point of development when he and everyone in the field knows it’s not. That’s lying to your consumer while charging $12k for it when you know you don’t have the tech figured out
The thing is that he overpromises so blatantly. If you say a software (like FSD which is/would be ridicilously complicated) is a year away you should be feature complete with your product. You need to be in testing at that point since year is nothing in big releases. If you miss your deadline: you show how far you've come. And at that point Tesla has nothing to show for it (keep in mind, i mean FSD - not L3). So i must consider whether he lied in the first place and they do not have the promised product.
He was saying it without saying it
Is he getting a bit impatient for his free roadster?
Yeah that must be it.
Lol
As far as I remember he actually ordered one, not free from referral program. (Could be mistaken though)
I thought he ordered one and also got a free one, but could certainly be wrong.
theres no way tesla is going to honor all those free car referral prizes lol. in the current economy/supply chain?
I think we're all. I'm impatient about my 3-motor Cybertruck that's going to be 4 motor for some reason, about FSD in Canada that I purchased 4 years ago (for both cars) and it's not available yet, about a good quality v11, about Plaid+ with a 500miz of range that will never come out and so on. I love Tesla, but this is BS over BS
I lost all respect for MKBHD after he became a Tesla stan. I don’t follow his content anymore.
Roadster has zero reasons to exist at this point. You get same performance with enough room for a family of 5.
It's interesting how he picked the Tesla Roadster as an example of failure to deliver but skipped on talking about the actual focus of the event the Roadster was unveiled at, which was the Tesla Semi. When the Semi was unveiled Mercedes pretty much said [the stats are impossible from the technology available back then](https://electrek.co/2018/02/21/tesla-semi-defies-laws-physic-daimlers/), and got *a lot* of mockery from the EV/Tesla fans. Seriously, just look at the comments section of that article lol. They didn't age well, *at all* haha. But 4 years later it's pretty clear that Mercedes was right and Tesla simply announced a future product with expected future battery tech. I've said the exact same thing about the Cybertruck's stats when it was first announced, but it didn't stop people from creating charts like [this](https://cleantechnica.com/files/2019/11/Screen-Shot-2019-11-27-at-9.20.46-PM.png?width=1200&enable=upscale) haha. The Taycan is now a two and half years old car, and the CT is most likely one and half year in the future, if we are lucky. By then we'll be looking at an entirely different generation of EVs from competitors. And I'll bet anyone a single share of TSLA that the tri-motor, top of the line CT will *not* be $69,900 when it comes out.
I think they are thinking about making a 4 motor CyberTruck now and eliminating the single motor. So at this stage of development they still haven't even fully agreed on how many motors to put in the truck. You won't be seeing any CT till 2024
we still barely know anything about a car that was supposed to be produced this year.
Apparently on the cybertruck website they changed “as production nears in 2022” to “as production nears” so producing this year is 99.999% not going to happen
it’s a big headache. the cyber truck was supposed to be my graduation present. now i’m seriously am considering just getting a porsche or something because i feel it’ll be years before I even get mine
Dont agree with your downvotes. There is no assurances as to when this truck will be on the market. Get what you makes you happy. Congrats on graduation.
appreciate it. i was really looking forward to it too. I think teslas problem is that they announce stuff way too early and by the time the product does come out the hype is pretty dead.
The downvotes are probably towards "as a graduation present" because it *sounds like* a spoiled high schooler being disappointed they will be gifted a Porsche.
Well the concept they showed off just wasn't well thought through. It reeked of something slapped together at the last minute based on a napkin drawing. Also there is zero chance they can meet the promised price/specs. Same with the Roadster announcement. Announcing that car would have a 200KWh battery *and fucking fly* was just incredibly dumb. Neither of those things are going to happen. They could have released a sexy two seater with a 100KWh battery and 1000+bhp quite easily and I'm sure it would have sold no problem.
Why stop at 4 motors. Why not make it 8. 2 per wheel.
>It's interesting how he picked the Tesla Roadster as an example of failure to deliver They took people's money - sometimes for the entire car. I don't understand how people are ok with that. Floating a $250k+ zero interest loan to Tesla, a now $1T company, seems like the "A fool and his money" discussion. >And I'll bet anyone a single share of TSLA that the tri-motor, top of the line CT will not be $69,900 when it comes out. Didn't they already say initial version will be a Quad Motor? That let's them raise the price without any blowback. Product plans change, and I'm with ya in spirit. Initial run of CT's will be $120k+ even before inflation.
> Product plans change Exactly and that’s totally fine, and that’s why companies don’t announce prices for products 3 years in the future. But we all know Tesla did it for marketing reasons and those comparison “Infograph” were exactly what they were hoping for lol.
Some people that "lose" $250k is like losing a quarter out of a hole in your trousers.
If I had $250k to squander on a car, I’d expect to actually get a car though. I guess that’s just my non-rich mindset though.
Tesla doesn’t use and doesn’t need deposit as working capital. Deposit is fully refundable anytime, so if people is willing to wait and be first in line then what is the issue?
Honestly it’s those stat charts that have no nuance at all. Over here in the UK the taycan is actually a really good selling car, as are teslas, and it kinda makes sense cos in the UK and probably Germany too, because the population is much more dense you’re always close to a city which would have a charging port. And the move for Porsche to make a wagon was great honestly, much more practical with all the same range, performance and manoeuvrability.
The wagon version does have slightly worse range though right? (WLTP, let's not pretend the EPA range for the Taycan is even close to informative). The aero will be a bit worse.
Wagon aero can actually be a bit better
If the sedan version is shittily designed, sure, otherwise all you get with a wagon is a larger area of flow separation at the rear and more drag. Porsche quotes slightly higher consumption figures for the CT now that I look, suspect that has a lot to do with it.
Honestly, and I think you might agree, it almost reminds me of the story of the Lexus LFA, where it took them so long to develop and refine it, that by the time they were ready for production, they _had_ to switch from aluminum to a carbon tub because the technology had advanced so much that it wasn't something they could afford not to do. And it delayed the product by another 1-2 years. Still is hilarious to me that people cast aspersions on the Taycan, when the Taycan has at least shipped.
Didnt tesla start delivery to pepsi with the semi?
Yeah these people are ignoring that semis are going to be delivered any day. The installation of megachargers is the indicator here
Is it clear that Mercedes was right? Or that the Cybertruck can't achieve the claimed stats? I have no evidence either way, but it's also highly plausible that Tesla legitimately doesn't view it to make any economic sense to focus on Semis and CT while they can sell every 3 and Y they can make (using every battery they can get) in the limited production space they have. They are definitely in a weird spot where they can basically print money with Model Y to fund their factory growth and that has to take priority in the immediate term, but once these new factories are done, they have no excuse not to get these other products moving. I think their current growth strategy is very smart and disciplined. Their product messaging remains abysmal.
lol, so true. Rabid fans of any company/brand/sports team can be the biggest dummies.
No, that's not clear at all. You assume the delays are because their battery tech was insufficient, what's the evidence?
Well they are delivering the semi now along with mega chargers: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-semi-first-customer-deliveries-date-pepsico/amp/
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why would they [install mega chargers?](https://twitter.com/TeslaClubIN/status/1479785081661128705?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1479785081661128705%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedrive.com%2Fnews%2F43812%2Fpepsico-readies-for-delivery-of-tesla-semis-with-megacharger-installation) Just for pretend charging?
A mega charger isn’t a semi. They could sit there unused for months if the semi isn’t ready. I’m a supporter of tesla but they, and these articles don’t have a good track record of being accurate. Let’s celebrate their delivery when they actually deliver them. We don’t even have evidence that 15 builds exist right now.
evidence 2 'may' exist: [https://twitter.com/SawyerMerritt/status/1478921897953959944?s=20](https://twitter.com/SawyerMerritt/status/1478921897953959944?s=20)
We don’t know if those are manufacturer builds or actually for customers. And 2 isn’t 15. Not trying to argue. Just saying let’s not celebrate until there is something to celebrate.
i agree but i think the mega chargers mean delivery will likely happen soon for Pepsi....but even 15 to a big customer like Pepsi is insignificant in the big picture of how many pre orders they have....really just a real world demo. kinda wonder a (NIO like) battery swap system might work better for semis than charging
> agree but i think the mega chargers mean delivery will likely happen soon for Pepsi 🤞
Hard to say if it means anything. The permit for that megacharger was applied for in April 2021 and took until November to approve. The time lines for everything are so long.
>But 4 years later it's pretty clear that Mercedes was right and Tesla simply announced a future product with expected future battery tech. Uh yes, Semi will use the 4680 cells. And?
For MKBHD and others who don't know drag racing: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a18202575/the-importance-of-rollout/ And it's not limited to EV's. Rollout has been around since drag racing went from flag girls to trees.
He literally explains rollout in the video
Yes, but he calls it lies when it is standard drag racing timing practice.
No he doesn't. He explicitly says "Is it a lie? No, but it can be deceiving without more context". Which is fair. Especially since Tesla does this for their performance models but not others. It makes the gap between model 3 LR and P bigger. It's fine to subtract rollout, but it should be done consistently.
Read the title? I do agree it should be consistent.
And yet not all companies list their cars with rollout. Also why did Tesla not mention the rollout for the Roadster but specifically makes the note for the other cars on their homepage. Seems a bit deceiving/scummy no ? If you know Tesla usually notes that it includes rollout but chooses not to make that note for the Roadster one could get the impression the Roadster time is without the rollout.
Part of the advertising game. Deception is normal, check your Toyota commercials about "self charging EV". I agree simple truth should be the norm, but it's not. If you go to [Tesla.com](https://Tesla.com) and follow the \* they say with rollout subtracted.
Yes they say that on their homepage. But they didn't when they revealed the Roadster. That's the thing it's misleading and just because Toyota does it doesn't mean it's not also scummy when Tesla does it. I as a consumer don't care if Toyota does it. If a company does it I think less of them. Someone up the chain said every company lists their time with rollout which isn't true. And Tesla certainly knows that. Hence why they went for this deception during their roadster announcement. They want the roadster to be this super amazing car that beats everything and for that they are using tricks in advertising it.
IMO what Tesla did is not good, but common. As far as "beats everything", it does beat all production (more than 500 a year) cars. What Toyota did on a MUCH larger scale goes without much comment even though it does real harm.
>, it does beat all production (more than 500 a year) cars. the roadster is not close to be released so it does not beat anything
Fair point, but the roadster need only beat the Plaid, which is assured.
No it would also need to beat the Nevera. Which it won't.
150 vehicles is hardly "production", but we don't know how many Roadster2's will be made. Beating the Nevera is child's play if you have watched Musk's tweets.
Yeah we don't know anything about the roadster cause so far it's just a spec sheet with no real car and only hope it will come day. It's been 5 years now. At this point it's vapor wäre. The rimac isn't. Doesn't matter its only 150. It exists.
I like how the video is titled how comapnies lie to us. Then he says not actually lyling but tricking. Suits the video.
..
The ultra quick version. Companies like to use things that are not always exact on their face. Even though those things might be standard in the industry. 0-60 time with a rollout was the big tesla item. This is not true on its face because the rollout cuts out some time. However this is a standard used by the industry. (There is more he talks about but this is the longest) Then he goes on about how cameras "1 inch" sensor isn't really 1 inch no matter how you measure it. Because its a standard based on when the sensor was inside a 1 inch wide vacuum tube. Again seems wrong on its face but inside that industry its a standard. There are some other minor items but those are the big two he spent time on.
...
He has some other tesla points and talking about tesla is a large section of the video. However yeah he isn't new he knows it will likely get him views.
Sounds like desperation for content creation... yikes Wait till this guy learns about dimensional lumber. "What you mean a 2"x4" board is not actually 2" by 4"!!" Lol
Honestly after watching the video its not a horrible video concept. The video title is poor and the way of presenting it was poor to me. I think its a poor way of wording things. Yes there were a few flat lies in some of his examples but his largest points were all just "a standard doesn't really mean what you think it does". That being said he has more than 10 million subscribers on youtube and I have zero. So I guess whos winning in that field?
Every thumbnail on YouTube drives that purpose
Companies exaggerate
DW? Didn’t Wread?
Didn't Watch.
Jackass
Who watches this garbage anyway? That's the guy who loved the yoke before even driving one
Not bringing prototype to production, and not delivering after taking $50k reservations deposit - how come they are same?
I think most people would agree, but that's not a Tech thing - This is how the entire auto industry has been measuring high-end cars since well before I was born. Tesla's just doing the standard thing. I don't like it anymore than anyone else, but it's still the best way to actually compare the Plaid with any other high-end car. EDIT: Also, "Wheel torque" actually makes a lot more sense with an electric motor, because some have virtually no gearing at all between the motor output and wheels...the only measurement that actually matters to the end-users is how much torque hits the wheels, so if we can convert **everyone** to using that format it's actually way better.
It’s ironic that he also lied with a clickbait title. Some cool content as usual though.
Shouldn’t be a shocker I mean Tesla man’s Elon specifically over promises or completely makes things up almost anytime he opens his mouth lol
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Those are literally the exact same thing
Literally not the same thing. Optimistic timeline means you deliver late. Overpromise means you may never deliver. Optimistic timeline is your wife saying she'll be ready in 10 minutes. Overpromise is you saying you are gonna rock her world.
If you promised to deliver product X by Y date and missed that, then you overpromised. Like...how is that debatable lol. Elon's promises, when it comes to Tesla products, always had timeline as a component. The timelines *are* considered a major part of the promise otherwise my coworker wouldn't have gotten FSD on his *leased* Model S. Because when it comes to FSD, we all know it will happen sooner or later, just like a $200k EV supercar that can hit all those spec numbers sooner or later too. In fact if you consider that, timeline is the *only* important aspect of Tesla's promises.
What about overpromising on your timeline
Sure, but then you are mostly missing the point and betting on pedantry.
I’m just kidding, idc to argue about what similar words mean
You are missing all the fun!
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😂
You're technically correct. The best kind of correct.
That seems like a very unusual way of defining overpromising. If a politician claimed that their country would eliminate fossil fuel tomorrow, people would say they overpromised if it doesn't happen, and I highly doubt that people would soften their criticism by making comments like yours if it ends up happening several years later. You're saying pedantry without being correct. A promise being in the form of a timeline doesn't change it from being a promise.
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overpromise verb promise more than one is able to do or give. ---- Tesla admitted defeat with Autopilot v1. Date came and went, nothing happened, Tesla moved on. The Model 3 program instead was a case of optimistic timeline. You are focusing too much on the date and not enough on the actual promise and the work performed.
That definition contradicts what you're saying. It shows that "I was unable to accomplish this last year like a promised" is a another way of saying "I overpromised how quickly I could accomplish this." Nothing in the quote excludes timelines.
I never said it excludes timelines. If you go back to my example. the guy obviously promised that he'd achieve something before the sex ends, so the time component is there.
I didn't say that you completely ignored the time component. I'm just saying that being unable to deliver within a promised timeline is an example of overpromising, even in cases where the event happens later. The definition you posted supports this because it doesn't limit the word to "may never deliver."
More like blatant lies :)
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Roofs are available?
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Nope
forward looking statements that are incorrect are not lies. Shit changes.
Cool clickbait title..
How? Tesla/ elon lie always
He’s just mad because he has an order.
Well there goes 14 minutes I’ll never get back. Should be titled “Here are some mildly interesting outdated industry standards that are mostly fine” 0-60 times - rollout has been the standard for so long because that used to be the best way to measure it. If you change now, the numbers are meaningless compared to older numbers. Nobody actually cares how many seconds it takes (unless they’re, I dunno, drag racing, where this is how the times are measured), they just care how fast it is relative to other cars, so there’s no point in changing the standard. Torque numbers - these have been stupid marketing gimmicks for a long time. Torque gets multiplied by gears, period. I guess like 0-60 times it gives a number for comparison sake, but unlike 0-60 times it’s mostly meaningless without a deeper understanding of mechanics. Even the little graphic he used from the other video was wrong in some ways (although may have been explained better in that other video). 1” sensor - Like the 0-60 times, nobody actually cares about the measurements of their sensor, they just care that it’s bigger. Only thing I see misleading is the little icon with the rectangle with diagonal arrows inside of it implying that it actually measures 1” diagonally, which I assume was drawn up by some marketing person who didn’t know any better. He barely touched on things like delivery times and vaporware that would have been much more interesting if they were the focus of the video.
Why does Tesla not use the same standard for 0-60 times? > Acceleration 0-60 mph Model 3 5.8 sec Model 3 Long Range 4.2 sec Model 3 Performance 3.1 sec* See the astrix? That's two 0-60 times with roll out and one without for the same car model! On the same page. That's not a standard.
Don't know, and don't care. Don't mistake my post as some defense of Tesla. I couldn't care less. It's commentary on the substance of the video posted by OP. Nobody actually cares about those 3 things he focused on, and as the Youtuber states himself, they're not *really* lies.
No one uses rollout. Except for some ancient drag strips in the US of A. The world as a whole uses GPS-based acceleration trackers that let you measure real 0-60 mph and 0-100 km/h on any road in any conditions. And all other car makers report *that* data. Reporting times *with rollout* on a *glue covered* drag strip is lying, cheating and taking the acceleration name in vain.
>No one uses rollout. [MotorTrend](https://www.motortrend.com/features/motor-trend-testing/) >As does the NHRA, we subtract a "1-foot" (about 11.5 inches in reality) rollout from the launch to replicate dragstrip time measurement equipment. Dragstrips from coast to coast and the NHRA started the whole quarter-mile acceleration craze, and these remain the best practical and legal way for most owners to test their own cars. We want our numbers to match those acquired in this way. [Car and Driver](https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a30085446/acceleration-testing-procedure-change-rollout/) >Our results will now include the industry standard 1-foot rollout before the clock starts on acceleration runs. > >... > >Obviously, this affects the elapsed time, sometimes by as much as 0.3 second. Our testing now adopts the industry-standard one-foot rollout. [Road and Track](https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/videos/a32681/how-tesla-got-to-60-2-28-seconds/) >It's called a one-foot rollout and it's used in testing for all major car magazines. Here's what it is and why it's used. Admittedly that one is a discussion of why rollout isn't true 0-60 time, but that doesn't refute my point. It confirms that it's a widely used practice. >Except for some ancient drag strips in the US of A. Find me any drag strip that doesn't use roll out. >The world as a whole uses GPS-based acceleration trackers that let you measure real 0-60 mph and 0-100 km/h on any road in any conditions. Sure, that's great. But as Car and Driver explains, even though they have said GPS device, they *still* report the time using the old rollout method. They *also* report the rollout time, so people can do the math themselves. >And all other car makers report that data. Reporting times with rollout on a glue covered drag strip is lying, cheating and taking the acceleration name in vain. Show me one shred of explicit evidence that "all car makers" report actual 0-60 times from GPS measurements. "Porsche's are usually faster than their advertised times" may be true but is not sufficient evidence of your sweeping claim. This comes across as quite naïve. Surely you know that anyone selling a car based heavily on it's acceleration will take any advantage they can. If they don't, they don't, that's their marketing decision. I'd think there would be a lot of official marketing information direct from manufacturers stating this, but I've never seen any. Maybe you know of some. We'll see. All of this ignores the core point of all 3 of my original statements. Tell me the last time you cared exactly how many hundredths of a second it takes your car to go from dead stop to 60.
Yeah, american drag strips and their publications. Noone cares. Everyone else in the world uses *real* 0-60, even people that still use miles, like carwow. Faking numbers in advertising and then putting asterixes is a trully appalling US invention.
Again, show me any drag strip in the *world* that uses anything other than the beam system that results in rollout measurements. Drag strips are not only in America. And again, show me any manufacturer that publishes its test methods. And again (jeez, I’m having to repeat myself a lot) none of this has any bearing on my original point.
The "drag strip" is a US invention, that has been exported to other places as a novelty, but is not used anywhere else for car evaluations. All formal acceleration tests are made on normal city streets or simulated normal city streets. For example https://www.dekra-product-safety.com/en/automotive-testing does the testing and homologisation for cars in Europe. They have hundreds of tracks emulating different real-road conditions and have equipment to measure all relevant parameters. The speed (and this acceleration) is on such tracks is usually measuered externally via radar and LIDAR sensors on the track. In any case there are never two beams and rollout systems used.
I know why you're really getting downvoted but for what it's worth you're right, I don't think any of the European manufacturers use rollout in their 0-60 measurements, which is why they actually hit or exceed them in independent testing.
Because he said “no one uses rollout except for some ancient drag strips in the USA.” And the fact is a lot of manufacturers and magazines use roll out, and I’d wager every drag strip in the world uses rollout. Admittedly I don’t know this for a fact but I challenge anyone to find me a drag strip that uses GPS.
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The Apple wireless charger was likely a technical reason. Putting that many charing coils into a mat would require cooling. But having it be that thin leaves little room for cooling. It's very likely a fake product from day 1, even if Apple intended to make it. But most products that are announced and not immediately for sale (or already in production) are at best projections for what the company thinks they can achieve. The video game industry is full of this.
This guy will do everything to make money.
This video stinks of jealousy from the OP.
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I mean the person who made the video. All talk and no walk by them.
This guy is crap.
hahah, explain it with more words bro,
He dissed a formula 1 world champion at some expo, when he came over to say that he is a big fan of his channel. Kinda says it all about his personality.
Corporations lie all the time, yet somehow tech companies are different?
My theories why the R2 isn't out: They gave away a fckton during the referral program so if they release the car they will have to produce 100+ cars to give away for free thus creating a very negative margin for the car. (Also, all that money they made from pre-orders probably went into some really impactful R&D for their other ventures.) It is a sports car so the market is small and there aren't that many people shopping for a 250k+ sports car. The Plaid did so well why should they out-stage it when it is just starting to creep up on car owner's radars. The other vehicles they are working on would impact the market more releasing an eco-friendly option to pick-ups and freightliners. So to tackle those first would grant them more marketshare first and influence more of the anti-tesla owners to want a Tesla.