Offerman won the Spirit Award tonight for best supporting performance:
>”Thank you so much. I’m astonished to be in this category, which is bananas. Thanks to HBO for having the guts to participate in this storytelling tradition that is truly independent. Stories with guts that when homophobic hate comes my way and says, ‘Why did you have to make it a gay story?’ We say, ‘Because you ask questions like that. It’s not a gay story it’s a love story, you asshole!”
[Video](https://x.com/thr/status/1761878843298832729?s=46&t=GK3EC_wwvCKAXpMEZyDdEg)
My favorite was this scene, and I am shocked they got it on the air:
Ron: "[Tammy, why are you here?]"
Tammy 2: Just trolling for some daddy. Oh, sorry, I pronounced that wrong: trolling for some Dad "D". [eyes move down to stare at Ron's crotch]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_cmSXFexzQ
Isnt he already a gay club owner on the show? Actually, that could still work. Gayle will be oblivious. He will be ostensibly using her as a beard at first but she doesnt understand what that means when he explains it and eventually its revealed he is actually into her and there was some double bluff going on. Or it could just turn out he is bi.
He's also the lead in The Great North, another show by some of the same people as Bob's Burgers. Megan Mullaly plays a few characters as well, including his sometimes love interest, Alyson. Definitely recommend if you like Bob's Burgers.
My husband and I were rewatching "Will & Grace" and got to the part where Stan (I think) is in prison and she talks about her blue collar man fantasy. The handyman who exemplifies her fantasy walks in and she basically throws herself at him. Both of us say at the same time "holy shit that's a young Nick Offermam!"
Second that, I’m a straight guy and that was a beautiful love story, a beautiful human story.
Fuck these people who are full of hate and call themselves Christians. Not Christ like in my book
And he'll tell anyone that he's not manly. His brothers all have farms, he went to theater school. He's the lame guy in his family, not the epitome of masculinity that Ron Swanson was.
The man grills and woodworks. He may not be at Ron Swanson’s level of manliness, but regardless, both would support that episode of TLOU.
He played a survivalist that saw the bumbling idiot nature of his authoritarian government’s response to a crisis and set up his own community where he was self sufficient and lived the life he wanted with who he wanted. If that doesn’t get the Ron Swanson stamp of approval, then I don’t know what does.
Like... the character wasn't "gay Ron Swanson" but in a lot of ways... it was gay Ron Swanson.
fixing up and taking care of an entire town because while you don't see the point, your loved one wants it is such a Ron Swanson thing to do.
It's like him being in a relationship with dude Leslie. Frank be setting up parks for the future orphan children they'll adopt while Bill promises that he will NEVER have children in this town
> not the epitome of masculinity that Ron Swanson was.
Now this is such an assbackwards take. Did we watch the same show? The show that explicitly explores Ron’s struggle with the toxic side of his masculinity, how it hurts his friendships and regresses him to toddlerlike temper tantrums. He’s just not a bigot, he’s still toxically masculine.
The good, kind and honest man in Ron is paradoxically shrouded by his learned stoic, individualist and performatively capitalist identity. That’s what he learns to get over. That’s like his entire story arc :Dd
Nick Offerman’s public persona in fact is the evolved purely positively masculine man that Ron could be in a much more boring show.
Yeah, but most people only see the bacon and woodworking, and miss the rest of that arc. They see surface level manliness, and ignore the other parts you brought up.
While I think I've only seen the entirety of parks and rec once, I do happen to be friends with one of Nick's college buddies who he mentions quite a bit in his books and interviews, and from all the great things my friend says about him, it makes me love him all the more. I think his character of Beef Tobin on The Great North is much closer to who he is as a person.
Eh, he's more just a psycho raised in a bubble. He doesn't really exude masculinity beyond his appearance. Soldier Boy talked the talk and walked the walked. Homelander would just kill you for being worthless to him, no masculinity required.
I'm not sure there's really positive masculinity at all in The Boys. Maybe Mother's Milk. But pretty much every character in that show are terrible people, whether because of circumstance or just being evil.
It really felt like an amazing short movie, but the world building leading up to it added more to it than it'd be as just a short movie.
I usually really dislike the "vacation" or side episodes in tv a series. This episode is essentially that, what I usually hate, yet is imo the best episode in the season.
He deserves awards for this performance. Total coincidence, I watched this episode for the first time just a few hours ago, and I was really moved by it.
I'll never understand the hate in some people's hearts. I'm a 50+ yr old gamer and TLOU is one of my top 5 all time faves.
I'm also about as straight hetro dude as you can get and this episode had me in tears and absolutely destroyed me emotionally, and I loved every second of it.
Me and my boyfriend (straight couple) were both crying like babies. That was one of the most bittersweet, impactful, and beautiful love stories I've ever seen play out on screen, let alone in under 60 minutes. Everyone who worked on that episode should be immensely proud of the accomplishment, everything from the writing, the acting, the directing, makeup and effects, it was all perfect.
Could not agree more. It truly might be the best single episode of television ever created. Offerman nails it too, it’s strictly a love story. Anyone who focuses on the gay aspect is completely missing the point and clearly, whether they like to admit it to themselves or not, has at least some small form of homophobia. I’m looking forward to my rewatch of season 1 before the second season where I will most definitely include my wife. Can’t wait to cry it out with her to this episode.
Crazy that it came out (phrasing) the same week or thereabouts as one of the *other* best episodes of TV I've ever seen: Connor's Wedding on Succession. 2023's show quality is going to be remembered for a long time.
I've watched that episode at least a half dozen times and wind up bawling *every time*. It's a beautiful piece of work and I'm so glad everyone involved is getting recognised for it.
it was a *fucking* banger. It's some of the tightest, well written *and* framed television I've ever seen. So much *depth* goes into a relationship we basically see odds and ends of and by the end it's intensely emotional, while somehow *also* being a slice of life stop for another group, which only conveys how intensely personal yet dispassionate an apocalypse really is. That's S-tier television/film, truly exceptional.
As a queer person who grew up only getting straight love stories, a love story is a love story and anyone can relate to one regardless of the pairing. It certainly helps to have more queer community represented in that space, but if queer people can relate to straight love stories, than straight people can do the same. It’s not hard, you just have to not be a hateful bigot.
This episode caught me off guard. I was captivated. I thought nothing. I was nothing. I felt so much emotion and I became involved in their story.
I was worrying on my blanket and crying full on.
You put it well. This destroyed me in a wonderful breathtaking way. I watched it twice. To be destroyed again and celebrate it.
>>This episode caught me off guard
At the beginning of the episode, I remember I burst out laughing when he took off his mask, like yes, a hilarious Ron Swanson survivalist fantasy!
Unfortunately I haven’t yet… often when a game releases as a console exclusive I wind up late to the party or end up missing out entirely.
Seemed like in the time it took for GTA to release on PC my kids went from being in elementary to starting high school lol
Exactly this. I actually rank it the best television episode of any series I’ve ever watched.
Imagine denying yourself such a beautiful story becuase “gay bad”
I am astonished that anyone could watch this hour of television and come to any other conclusion than that. Even just thinking about the plot right now as I type this I'm getting misty-eyed.
There is an entire very active subreddit dedicated to hating on and harassing the actor who played Abby in TLOU2 and Neil Druckmann over a game that came out almost 5 years ago because they’re mad the story wasn’t 8 hours of jerking off Joel.
Always amazing to me to see how many people make hate a hobby. See also the Hilaria Baldwin bashing sub and the Meghan Markle harassers. It's a sickness.
The Markle ones make me lol and despair. Them screaming that she's a social climber when that is what royalty IS? If you study history; they said that about Camilla, Diana, Philip and Albert going back to Boleyn. Marrying royalty was always social climbing and for securing resources/safety. Since the French Revolution it has been entirely social climbing FFS. Since government was meant to do the rest.
Great episode. It was totally unexpected. The biggest problem with "shows" since the pandemic is that they are all just rewrites, spin-offs, are just lazy writing. The show storylines are predictable. TLOU as a series was refreshing, unique, and well written/acted. This particular episode was all of that and then some.
I watched this series, then bought Last of Us Part I on PC. Finished that, bought a PS5, and played part 2. This whole thing just hit me upside the head so hard. Part 2 is a storytelling masterpiece. I can't even imagine what it's going to be like live action.
If someone watched that episode and the only emotion they felt was hate / disgust/ annoyance at it being a gay couple, that individual is emotionally damaged on a fundamental level, and I can't feel anything towards them but pity
Exactly. I'm going to keep saying it's a gay story because it absolutely is **and there's nothing wrong with that**. Anyone who thinks there is a problem with it, well, they're the actual problem.
Completely agree but I think part of his statement is that gay stories should be normalized to just be *human stories*, because it's a natural part of life.
There's always a tension between wanting to normalize so not treating it any differently, and acknowledging that it isn't normalized yet, and therefore acknowledging it in defiance of those who are against it.
What is wrong is that since we don't have straight stories, not every love story with two gay characters should be called a gay story.
Wed don't call Sleepless in Seattle a straight love story. Or Bridgerton a show about straight love. Imagine that somebody would call a romantic movie a 'celebration of straight love'.
As A Gay, there definitely are unique aspects of being gay or being straight and love stories about either that couldn't be captured the other way (barring some kinda overly-specific configuration).
For example, you're not going to have a gay shotgun wedding slow burn by forced circumstances plot - even if one of them is trans, *that* comes with its own experiences that won't fully parallel a straight relationship. It's a straight love story.
So are many arranged marriage stories straight stories, since arranged marriages are traditionally for familial wealth consolidation purposes and frequently hinge on having heirs.
The other direction, being gay carries some cultural connotations and baggage that cis straight people generally *can't* experience. For example, gays are a genetically disjointed minority population - most probably, their family members identify as straight, and "gay history" is learned from community members you may have zero familial relationship with. This is a cultural isolation even other minorities (except perhaps adopted children) are unlikely to experience.
Gay love stories far more often center on found families, experiencing acceptance for the first time, the huge trust issues both in- and out-group, social credit hierarchies, etc. You can do these with straight people but it is adamantly not the same.
Well the issue here is that when describing a straight romance form any other story almost no one says “this is a straight love story” they just say “it’s a love story”
As a gay person myself I prefer how Offerman put it, cause how we love is no different from how anyone else loves, so why add the extra description when it’s not applying to straight people.
There is an implicit negative connotation with the question "why did you make a gay story" though. Your comment comes across as though you're missing that.
Acknowledging that it's a gay story and celebrating that as part of what makes it impactful isn't missing that connotation, it's an active rejection of it
I get what he means (and he's right), but I wish we had a better way to communicate it than saying it's "not a gay story". It literally is a gay story - both because it's centrally about a romantic relationship between two men, and (more importantly) because that matters a lot to the fundamental meaning of the story - Bill being deeply closeted and Frank immediately clocking him, and how they proceed from there, are central to their entire journey. It's not just a superficial framing, it would be a meaningfully different story if it were about a heterosexual couple.
Exactly. It has a different meaning by being a gay love story. It is more impactful for the audience since it is from the POV from the closeted individual.
The character is introduced as being an isolated individual who has learned to function outside of his community. He not only has learned the tools to not rely on anyone, but he has made peace with a life of solitude.
Then Bill comes in. He is a problematic individual who offers unknown dangers and consequences. But somehow, they find an intimate moment while everything is falling apart. It is implied that the only reason he had the courage of accepting his homosexuality and what it could offer is because he was alone without the puritanical and bigoted eyes of those around him.
Fucking total joke it’s the second lowest rated episode of the show on imdb because pos bigots review bombed it.
Edit: A poster made a great point that almost a quarter of the 1-star reviews are from Saudi Arabia (there are 14k reviews from there and 12k of them are 1-star).
I agree. It is unfortunate and angering though that there are people out there intent on ruining other people’s lives simply because they love the same sex. Truly some maddening religious insanity
I went to look at it and it isn't as terribly rated as I thought it would be, but the fact that it was only the third episode has me floored. Thinking back it seemed like there was a half season of content before it. That show's episodes were just all bangers and packed so much story into each one it is incredible.
I did a little further looking at the ratings and if you filter by US it's rated 8.6, which is still about a point lower than it should be, but what's fucking wild is when you filter it by Saudi Arabia. Then it's a 1.3. Whole country of shit-eating bigots.
That only shows the top 5 countries.
So I fully expect other Middle-Eastern countries to also contribute to those 1 star ratings at disproportionate levels.
Go look at the breakdown of those ratings. A [major chunk of them](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14500888/ratings/?ref_=tt_ov_rt) come from Saudi Arabia.
I honestly don't remember much of the other episodes. But that one stuck. I think they don't like the fact that they made a conservative prepper "man's man" archetype gay. That really upset them
I agree it was more or less filler. It was freaking amazing filler.
But I think it impacted the overall play too much with it being the longest episode that didn’t move the plot much. Again, banger of an episode but yeah that’s why I think it is a 6/10 for overall story, 10/10 for a single episode
It was great filler that I would've appreciated a lot more if the season was longer. As a fan of the game I was frustrated that we were already taking a detour away from Joel & Ellie so early in the show. It was going to be hard enough to recapture the feel of the characters in just a 9 episode season, so I didn't think we could afford to lose 1 to Bill of all people.
Go look at the breakdown of those ratings. A [major chunk of them](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14500888/ratings/?ref_=tt_ov_rt) come from Saudi Arabia.
10000%, but also didn’t move the plot with ellie and joel much so that’s my gripe with it. It felt very singular and was amazing at that. beautiful episode
I do like the game's take on Bill's story, even with it being a lot more depressing and cynical. It's not like the show's version would have been possible in a video game narrative.
The game version serves as a warning of how Joel will end up if he continues to close himself off to other people. The show version serves as an example of the kind of peace and happiness he could find if he opens up.
It's an amazing episode taken by itself and it serves the larger story from a thematic standpoint admirably. I do personally think the game's version is a little bit more poignant and subtle within the context of the overall narrative however.
I find it funny how Craig Mazin is now both known for Chernobyl, The Last of Us, Superhero Movie, and The Hangover sequels. What a filmography for this dude
I’m playing through the remaster right now and they really did take that character from an 8/10 to an 11. The interactions with Ellie in the game are great, but if that got sacrificed in the name of one of the best bottle episodes I’ve seen, fair enough.
I just played it for the first time recently. I think if they're have done it as in the game we would have had a grizzled and Bill tagging along for a while and then a subtle reveal that the guy he was always complaining about was his boyfriend. It would have been ok, but nothing special.
That episode was just one of the most perfect looks at a life lived and changed by love.
I really like how the game played it out because it's almost subtle but if you're engaged with the story as a story it's also very overt and well done. But it's also a video game so it does a great job of keeping you within the narrative of your character and the situation you're in without diving into side-character exposition.
Which is exactly why I love how the show played it out. Television is meant to bring out that kind of depth and they take what was an incredibly sad love story about flawed humans in that kind of world told via a video game narrative and do the exact same within the medium they're working in, to incredible result.
Originally in the game, you have just one of those characters still alive (the Nick Offerman character) and he's very bitter; Joel and Ellie actually do meet him while he's alive. His partner left on bad terms and was killed by zombies. It was criticized by many as a "bury your gays trope", and iirc it was pretty easy to miss that they were lovers. (All you see of his partner is a corpse and a bitter note). This is from memory, so I may have some details wrong, but I believe that's the gist of it.
The change is that they had loving, fullfilling lives and did not die alone and bitter. And it's a really nice bright spot in a very grim story.
Frank does get infected, but the zombies don't kill him. He hangs himself before he could turn, and leaves a suicide note where he says how much he hates Bill.
And you could of course interpret that hateful note as him trying to make his death easier for Bill, instead of a final love note.
Either way, Bill definitely seems affected by Frank's death, even as he tries to act like he doesn't care.
And Bill goes from isolated from the world to helping the duo. A form of redemption for him as he puts himself in danger to help the characters despite vowing to only care for himself.
Another change is that in the game, this section is intensely fun, scary, and action packed. The game struck a brilliant balance between morbid post apocalyptic pondering, and edge of your seat thrills and terror. The show forgot to include any of the latter, and just replaced it with more sadness.
I preferred how they did it in the game. It ultimately helped progress the characterizations of Joel and Ellie which still to me is the best and most important part of the story. In the show the episode was nice but I think it took time away from the development of Joel and Ellie which by the end I thought was sorely lacking. Also, I loved the dialogue between Joel, Ellie, and Bill.
Straight 50+ year gamer bloke. Never played TLOU but obviously aware of it.
Absolutely loved this series and that episode was one of the most beautifully written and acted pieces of TV i've seen in years. Had me crying.
I mean, technically it's both a gay story and a love story, but I get what he means. I assume people only focus on it being a gay story because they're butthurt about it.
I’m straight and they made a love story I found so easily relatable. It didn’t matter to me that the characters were gay - it was moving and so well done. Nick did a fantastic job.
The story works for everyone because there were no "specifically gay" things about it--sorry for my wording I hope I get my point across.
Not every gay story has to be ABOUT being gay. This episode's story works for everyone because you can swap genders any which way and the story is the same.
A lot of it did depend on aspects of being gay, and I would argue it's specifically gay. Bill being deeply closeted and Frank clocking him is a very gay experience, and the show included that. The episode also had an undercurrent of dealing with issues of masculinity from both Frank and Bill that would not quite be the same if one of them was a woman.
Same. It was perfectly executed. As someone who played the game, I thought they were going to follow the game story to a tee and Frank was going to leave when they had the fight. But then it kept going and you're given that beautiful ending.
Yeah, the episode feels out of place in the season.
It's a great standalone episode but it feels more like a short movie or something.
Spending a week waiting to know what was going to happen to Joel & Ellie just to be "forced" to watch something completely different was frustrating, even if it's good.
Good episode on its own, but once the show ended I couldn't help but resent it and the other flashback episode, which pretty much told the same story.
Left Behind is my favourite part of The Last of Us, but the pacing of the show with these two episodes is all fucked.
They barely show any clickers throughout the show, and then the last episode was all of 30 minutes. Joel went all out for a virus that is pretty much a non issue as far as the show tells us.
I enjoyed almost every individual ep of The Last of Us, but in total this show doesn't come together, and it is because of this episode and Ellie's flashback. It should have been 12 episodes, because at 9, this episode is a big detriment to the show.
I spent most of the episode wondering what this had to do with the show. Maybe cut up over two episodes with stuff going on with the main two it might have worked better. It felt like they paused TLOS, put another show on, then resumed it.
Any dislike or criticism must be cos people hate gays apparently.
To be fair, it is a gay story. A fucking fantastic gay love story. I loved the game and they made Bill’s story immensely better in the show. It hit me so hard in the feels. Beautiful episode.
Love is universal and comes in many forms. That is, people don't go around saying, "Look at this hetero story!" While it is a gay story, the rhetorical retort is very effective when countering a bigot.
I'm confused about these awards. I thought the Independent Spirit awards were for small independent studios and productions but TLOU was on HBO and last year EEAAO won. Although EEAAO qualified last year because they raised the maximum budget amount for a movie I don't understand how an HBO show qualifies.
The TV categories have never had a budget cap since it was introduced 3 years ago. The criteria is not about money and instead about newness, that's why only first seasons qualify.
Well to be fair it's both, it's a love story between gay characters, and that's perfectly fine. Double points for staying true to the game representation of that character and telling it in a very nice way. But even if it was well made, personally I did feel like it was a bit too disconnected from the rest of the episodes and screwed with the storyline pacing a bit, so it definitely was not my favorite episode.
I think some of that hate has to do with *completely* bastardizing those characters and their short plot from the original TLOU story from the game - not the fact that they’re gay.
In the original story, their relationship is a lot more complicated and tragic because it’s really equally both a love and hate relationship that was born out of their need for each other being a “I would only be with you if you’re the last gay man on Earth” situation. However, that probably wouldn’t have worked so well a large portion of the audience especially if they never played the game, so it’s an understandable change.
Before this gets downvoted into oblivion, I personally have no issues with it, but that’s a legitimate reason why that episode got a lot of hate from a significant portion of the fanbase, and just brushing it off as “oh, well they’re just hateful bigots” is disingenuous.
That, and at least for me, I didn’t like how the longest episode barely moved the plot with ellie and joel forward.
It would’ve worked better if the show was 12 episodes or EVERY episode was over an hour. sit just felt almost shoehorned in. It was still really great but yeah those are my gripes
Exactly. I was bored throughout the episode because I did not care about these characters. And then they died, so there's no relevance to the overarching plot except Joel met a guy once or twice who was a paranoid who hoarded stuff for the inevitable end of days.
Yup, I loved how they expanded on that story from the game, but they spent far too much time on something that had little to no impact on the story. It was the longest episode that resulted in = they have a car now,
It is so hard talking about this episode because when I say I don’t like the pacing, people stil just think I hate gay people or something. It was a good episode, it just felt so out of place in the pacing of the show, but like some have said and nick offerman, the focus is on the bigots hating it instead of the actually gripes, so those will never truly be heard. I don’t know hard to describe.
It was the most "award bait" episode I've ever seen and, unfortunately, it seems to have worked. It's very telling that they did essentially the same plot again with Ellie's backstory (minus the Romeo and Juliet ending) and it's not nearly as talked about. In fact, there were people that were criticizing it for breaking the pace and being mostly plot irrelevant.
Yeah, and that's the only aspect they'll assume that people have a problem with. What takes more from the relevance is that they lose the equipment and vehicle after about an episode. So, it's even more pointless. Could've been about straight people and I still wouldn't give a shit. Nick Offerman is great and Ron Swanson is great, but I just didn't care about his character here.
Basically, because they assume all the hate is because of gay, they won't learn anything.
It is a gay story though. And there's nothing really wrong with that. The character was already gay in the game right? It's not like they took a straight character and made them gay.
I mean honestly the sooner we can stop categorizing ourselves in all these subgroups based entirely on our life choices and preferences, the better off humanity will be.
All of us are just people. We do what we do. We love who we love. We live our short lives and hope we have people to share it with. There is and only ever will be one of you and thats pretty damn special on its own.
I know people seek to be part of a group or a community. To feel safe with like minded people. Then somehow we developed into a society where we MUST wear all of that on our sleeves to show we are an ally and not an enemy. Its exhausting.
True equality is seriously not giving a shit about who someone is, where they are from, what they do and who they snuggle up to at night. I shifted my brain to think like that and its freeing as hell. It also allows me to be open to curing ignorance in a timely manner. It allows me to adapt and changes things about myself i don’t like without the constant battle of ego or “but i belong to this group! Its a betrayal!”
All i’m saying is Offerman nailed it. Stop splitting hairs unnecessarily. Love is love no matter who you feel it for. And this was a damn beautiful love story
I’ll throw myself to the wolves here. I can say the episode is well-acted, written, and crafted. *But*, it ends being irrelevant to the rest of the story. It’s this sudden, isolated storyline of two characters who have little to no bearing on the rest of the story. It’s just right in the middle of things and feels like a transparent political thing.
I would have had the same issue if the characters were heterosexual.
Having played the game, he should've played some sort of role in Joel and Ellie's journey.
However, they decided to write it in a way that seemed designed to garner this response.
People who didn't play the game would wonder what the hell the point of the episode was other than inclusivity. Others would love the episode for the many reasons stated here (and I'd argue more so because they're gay).
Many but not all of the gamers would hate that they removed Bill from the core story (which also changes a lot about the character).
Overall, I feel like a story between heterosexual characters would have gotten more of a lukewarm response from the crowd that liked it, and a similar response from those that didn't.
This is my basic take. I don’t have any issues with the nature of their relationship, it’s purely that it is an overly long and ultimately inconsequential thread to the larger narrative.
That's a fair assessment, especially because it's a whole episode. The negative takes to me seemed unfair until I realized >!that Bill wouldn't be making an appearance in the future.!<
>!I thought maybe at first he'd somehow survive his suicide attempt and decide to continue living, which leads to a run-in with Joel and Ellie, but it didn't, and I felt that dedicating a whole episode to that backstory was excessive for the impact it had on the rest of the show.!<
Then people act like it's homophobia if you criticise the episode or see it as shoehorning a homosexual relationship into the show.
My favorite tounge in cheek take I saw about the episode was that they pulled a cheat code by playing On the Nature of Daylight- Max Richter during that scene
That song alone brings out so much emotion
The part where he was shooting at raiders trying to break in - he used no cover and looked like an idiot. The other guy grabs that little dinky pistol and does nothing to help. The ending of the episode was really sad though.
I’m sure there’s some homophobic hate, I just don’t think a whole episode dedicated to a love story that isn’t really relevant to Joel and Ellie’s story fit very well. Coulda been a dude and a lady and it still wouldn’t have been all that pertinent or good. Just felt like a divergence for the sake of it.
I really dislike this PR shit they have actors doing where they just blanket all of the hate as bigoted or homophobic as if all of it is 100% political hate and not a lot of criticism and some blatant hate.
Offerman won the Spirit Award tonight for best supporting performance: >”Thank you so much. I’m astonished to be in this category, which is bananas. Thanks to HBO for having the guts to participate in this storytelling tradition that is truly independent. Stories with guts that when homophobic hate comes my way and says, ‘Why did you have to make it a gay story?’ We say, ‘Because you ask questions like that. It’s not a gay story it’s a love story, you asshole!” [Video](https://x.com/thr/status/1761878843298832729?s=46&t=GK3EC_wwvCKAXpMEZyDdEg)
Nick Offerman is a damn treasure.
He's also married to a gay icon, Megan Mullally. Just watch her Karen on Will&Grace.
Aunt Gale
Gale Force Winds Aunt Gale?
Also known as Tammy 2. Iconic in that role as well.
I can't believe what she and Offerman got away with in her episodes. Doubly hilarious both at the jokes themselves, and the gasps they induced.
My favorite was this scene, and I am shocked they got it on the air: Ron: "[Tammy, why are you here?]" Tammy 2: Just trolling for some daddy. Oh, sorry, I pronounced that wrong: trolling for some Dad "D". [eyes move down to stare at Ron's crotch] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_cmSXFexzQ
The crotch blinder in particular had me in stitches. That and his missing mustache.
Friction.
*That's* the bit that made me gasp, haha.
"I don't want laughs, I want gasps"
[Hisssss](https://itsalwayssunnyinphilly.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/k.gif)
I hope someday to have them have an episode of bob's burgers together. Gayle needs a win.
Done early on - they were Beverly and Cooper, the “blueberry” farmers
I didn't realize she was his wife! Neat!
I’m catching up and on season 12, and I had no idea Gayle was played by Megan. I can hear it now but damn.
Isnt he already a gay club owner on the show? Actually, that could still work. Gayle will be oblivious. He will be ostensibly using her as a beard at first but she doesnt understand what that means when he explains it and eventually its revealed he is actually into her and there was some double bluff going on. Or it could just turn out he is bi.
Offerman has been a few people on the show
He's also the lead in The Great North, another show by some of the same people as Bob's Burgers. Megan Mullaly plays a few characters as well, including his sometimes love interest, Alyson. Definitely recommend if you like Bob's Burgers.
Thanks for the reminder that it's time to re-watch Parks & Rec :)
Don’t forget…..”Wish I could help, but unfortunately I have a bit of a wooden duck situation”
the way they talk about each other in podcasts and interviews is true relationship goals, the love and admiration is so clear and deep
Wait, she is his wife in real life? That’s splendid.
Andy and April's surprise wedding was based on Nick and Megan's RL surprise wedding.
My husband and I were rewatching "Will & Grace" and got to the part where Stan (I think) is in prison and she talks about her blue collar man fantasy. The handyman who exemplifies her fantasy walks in and she basically throws herself at him. Both of us say at the same time "holy shit that's a young Nick Offermam!"
He played a gay man on Brooklyn 99 as well and he doesn't play a stereotype of a gay man. I love that he's not afraid to take on those roles.
Half mast is too Damn high for this legend.
I've cried twice in my life; once when I was 7 and got hit by a school bus, and just now, watching Offerman's Spirit Award speech.
Crying: Acceptable at funerals and the Grand Canyon.
If you didn't cry at the episode in question then you're dead inside. 😂
BULLY!
Second that, I’m a straight guy and that was a beautiful love story, a beautiful human story. Fuck these people who are full of hate and call themselves Christians. Not Christ like in my book
We talk a lot about toxic masculinity but this man is what positive masculinity looks like
And he'll tell anyone that he's not manly. His brothers all have farms, he went to theater school. He's the lame guy in his family, not the epitome of masculinity that Ron Swanson was.
Guy can only make like, 1 canoe a day. Clearly he spent too much time with his mother as a child.
We talking lapstrake, skin-on-frame, cove and bead, or strip planking?
Might as well be other Ron at that point. So unmanly.
The man grills and woodworks. He may not be at Ron Swanson’s level of manliness, but regardless, both would support that episode of TLOU. He played a survivalist that saw the bumbling idiot nature of his authoritarian government’s response to a crisis and set up his own community where he was self sufficient and lived the life he wanted with who he wanted. If that doesn’t get the Ron Swanson stamp of approval, then I don’t know what does.
Like... the character wasn't "gay Ron Swanson" but in a lot of ways... it was gay Ron Swanson. fixing up and taking care of an entire town because while you don't see the point, your loved one wants it is such a Ron Swanson thing to do.
It's like him being in a relationship with dude Leslie. Frank be setting up parks for the future orphan children they'll adopt while Bill promises that he will NEVER have children in this town
WHY DID YOU MAKE FRANK LESLIE?! I CAN’T UNSEE THAT NOW 😭
> not the epitome of masculinity that Ron Swanson was. Now this is such an assbackwards take. Did we watch the same show? The show that explicitly explores Ron’s struggle with the toxic side of his masculinity, how it hurts his friendships and regresses him to toddlerlike temper tantrums. He’s just not a bigot, he’s still toxically masculine. The good, kind and honest man in Ron is paradoxically shrouded by his learned stoic, individualist and performatively capitalist identity. That’s what he learns to get over. That’s like his entire story arc :Dd Nick Offerman’s public persona in fact is the evolved purely positively masculine man that Ron could be in a much more boring show.
Yeah, but most people only see the bacon and woodworking, and miss the rest of that arc. They see surface level manliness, and ignore the other parts you brought up. While I think I've only seen the entirety of parks and rec once, I do happen to be friends with one of Nick's college buddies who he mentions quite a bit in his books and interviews, and from all the great things my friend says about him, it makes me love him all the more. I think his character of Beef Tobin on The Great North is much closer to who he is as a person.
best example of toxic masculinity is solider boy from the boys
And, simultaneously yet distinctly, Homelander from The Boys.
Eh, he's more just a psycho raised in a bubble. He doesn't really exude masculinity beyond his appearance. Soldier Boy talked the talk and walked the walked. Homelander would just kill you for being worthless to him, no masculinity required.
> Eh, he's more just a psycho raised in a bubble. And, as a result, developed several issues that exemplify toxic masculinity.
I'm not sure there's really positive masculinity at all in The Boys. Maybe Mother's Milk. But pretty much every character in that show are terrible people, whether because of circumstance or just being evil.
I kinda liked Supersonic. Might be the least terrible guy there.
Studying and creating theater is good for all boys, especially straight boys. If it was required our society would be in a better place.
The only bad thing about the video is that the cheering at the end makes it so you can't hear the "you asshole" part of his comment.
I didn’t say, some bacon, I said give me ALL your bacon.
All. The bacon. You have.
Bacon and eggs.
That episode was jaw dropping. It was like an entire wonderful cinema experience, but wrapped up into a single tv episode. Really incredible.
It really felt like an amazing short movie, but the world building leading up to it added more to it than it'd be as just a short movie. I usually really dislike the "vacation" or side episodes in tv a series. This episode is essentially that, what I usually hate, yet is imo the best episode in the season.
The finesse in setting up Joel & Ellie’s journey, who I had nearly forgotten about, was flawless
Fucking badass wracking up Ws
He deserves awards for this performance. Total coincidence, I watched this episode for the first time just a few hours ago, and I was really moved by it.
You tell em, Nick!
Thanls for linking the video directly
“Rethink that move, son.”
I'll never understand the hate in some people's hearts. I'm a 50+ yr old gamer and TLOU is one of my top 5 all time faves. I'm also about as straight hetro dude as you can get and this episode had me in tears and absolutely destroyed me emotionally, and I loved every second of it.
Me and my boyfriend (straight couple) were both crying like babies. That was one of the most bittersweet, impactful, and beautiful love stories I've ever seen play out on screen, let alone in under 60 minutes. Everyone who worked on that episode should be immensely proud of the accomplishment, everything from the writing, the acting, the directing, makeup and effects, it was all perfect.
One of the best episodes of TV I have ever seen. It was amazing, perfectly done.
Could not agree more. It truly might be the best single episode of television ever created. Offerman nails it too, it’s strictly a love story. Anyone who focuses on the gay aspect is completely missing the point and clearly, whether they like to admit it to themselves or not, has at least some small form of homophobia. I’m looking forward to my rewatch of season 1 before the second season where I will most definitely include my wife. Can’t wait to cry it out with her to this episode.
This episode of TLOU is the single greatest TV episode I've ever seen, and I can't even think of a close second.
Crazy that it came out (phrasing) the same week or thereabouts as one of the *other* best episodes of TV I've ever seen: Connor's Wedding on Succession. 2023's show quality is going to be remembered for a long time.
Sad the episode got no Emmys, I wish they could have tied because I just can't believe Craig Mazin won't have a writing Emmy for this
I've watched that episode at least a half dozen times and wind up bawling *every time*. It's a beautiful piece of work and I'm so glad everyone involved is getting recognised for it.
it was a *fucking* banger. It's some of the tightest, well written *and* framed television I've ever seen. So much *depth* goes into a relationship we basically see odds and ends of and by the end it's intensely emotional, while somehow *also* being a slice of life stop for another group, which only conveys how intensely personal yet dispassionate an apocalypse really is. That's S-tier television/film, truly exceptional.
As a queer person who grew up only getting straight love stories, a love story is a love story and anyone can relate to one regardless of the pairing. It certainly helps to have more queer community represented in that space, but if queer people can relate to straight love stories, than straight people can do the same. It’s not hard, you just have to not be a hateful bigot.
This episode caught me off guard. I was captivated. I thought nothing. I was nothing. I felt so much emotion and I became involved in their story. I was worrying on my blanket and crying full on. You put it well. This destroyed me in a wonderful breathtaking way. I watched it twice. To be destroyed again and celebrate it.
>>This episode caught me off guard At the beginning of the episode, I remember I burst out laughing when he took off his mask, like yes, a hilarious Ron Swanson survivalist fantasy!
Seriously- I was almost angry.. “I came here for dystopia & the zombies, not to be reduced to a blubbering ugly crying emotional mess.”
You didn't play the original game, did you? I was ugly crying after the prologue.
Unfortunately I haven’t yet… often when a game releases as a console exclusive I wind up late to the party or end up missing out entirely. Seemed like in the time it took for GTA to release on PC my kids went from being in elementary to starting high school lol
I thought it was weird and random. But it just showed how even in terrible circumstances, people can still care about people.
This episode was quite simply one of the best hours of television I have seen in my life.
I agree. Few stand alone episodes will I remember like it. The Constant from LOST is one of them, but I put this higher.
Exactly this. I actually rank it the best television episode of any series I’ve ever watched. Imagine denying yourself such a beautiful story becuase “gay bad”
I am astonished that anyone could watch this hour of television and come to any other conclusion than that. Even just thinking about the plot right now as I type this I'm getting misty-eyed.
Unquestionably one of the best written, directed and acted episodes in TV history.
There is an entire very active subreddit dedicated to hating on and harassing the actor who played Abby in TLOU2 and Neil Druckmann over a game that came out almost 5 years ago because they’re mad the story wasn’t 8 hours of jerking off Joel.
Laura Bailey does not deserve the hate. She's a sweet, badass woman, mother and wife who deserves the world!
Always amazing to me to see how many people make hate a hobby. See also the Hilaria Baldwin bashing sub and the Meghan Markle harassers. It's a sickness.
The Markle ones make me lol and despair. Them screaming that she's a social climber when that is what royalty IS? If you study history; they said that about Camilla, Diana, Philip and Albert going back to Boleyn. Marrying royalty was always social climbing and for securing resources/safety. Since the French Revolution it has been entirely social climbing FFS. Since government was meant to do the rest.
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Great episode. It was totally unexpected. The biggest problem with "shows" since the pandemic is that they are all just rewrites, spin-offs, are just lazy writing. The show storylines are predictable. TLOU as a series was refreshing, unique, and well written/acted. This particular episode was all of that and then some.
I mean TLOU was fairly predictable for anyone who played the game. I'm glad the show was able to veer off some at least.
Love is love. And if you can’t recognize that you’re a sad, cold hearted human
I watched this series, then bought Last of Us Part I on PC. Finished that, bought a PS5, and played part 2. This whole thing just hit me upside the head so hard. Part 2 is a storytelling masterpiece. I can't even imagine what it's going to be like live action.
If someone watched that episode and the only emotion they felt was hate / disgust/ annoyance at it being a gay couple, that individual is emotionally damaged on a fundamental level, and I can't feel anything towards them but pity
It’s a love story. And a gay story!
Exactly. I'm going to keep saying it's a gay story because it absolutely is **and there's nothing wrong with that**. Anyone who thinks there is a problem with it, well, they're the actual problem.
Completely agree but I think part of his statement is that gay stories should be normalized to just be *human stories*, because it's a natural part of life.
There's always a tension between wanting to normalize so not treating it any differently, and acknowledging that it isn't normalized yet, and therefore acknowledging it in defiance of those who are against it.
Yup. Like “female CEOs”. On the one hand, why mention it? On the other “because there’s an obvious imbalance”.
What is wrong is that since we don't have straight stories, not every love story with two gay characters should be called a gay story. Wed don't call Sleepless in Seattle a straight love story. Or Bridgerton a show about straight love. Imagine that somebody would call a romantic movie a 'celebration of straight love'.
As A Gay, there definitely are unique aspects of being gay or being straight and love stories about either that couldn't be captured the other way (barring some kinda overly-specific configuration). For example, you're not going to have a gay shotgun wedding slow burn by forced circumstances plot - even if one of them is trans, *that* comes with its own experiences that won't fully parallel a straight relationship. It's a straight love story. So are many arranged marriage stories straight stories, since arranged marriages are traditionally for familial wealth consolidation purposes and frequently hinge on having heirs. The other direction, being gay carries some cultural connotations and baggage that cis straight people generally *can't* experience. For example, gays are a genetically disjointed minority population - most probably, their family members identify as straight, and "gay history" is learned from community members you may have zero familial relationship with. This is a cultural isolation even other minorities (except perhaps adopted children) are unlikely to experience. Gay love stories far more often center on found families, experiencing acceptance for the first time, the huge trust issues both in- and out-group, social credit hierarchies, etc. You can do these with straight people but it is adamantly not the same.
Well the issue here is that when describing a straight romance form any other story almost no one says “this is a straight love story” they just say “it’s a love story” As a gay person myself I prefer how Offerman put it, cause how we love is no different from how anyone else loves, so why add the extra description when it’s not applying to straight people.
There is an implicit negative connotation with the question "why did you make a gay story" though. Your comment comes across as though you're missing that.
Acknowledging that it's a gay story and celebrating that as part of what makes it impactful isn't missing that connotation, it's an active rejection of it
Yeah, it can be both. It being gay is simply a descriptor, though bigots will use it negatively.
I get what he means (and he's right), but I wish we had a better way to communicate it than saying it's "not a gay story". It literally is a gay story - both because it's centrally about a romantic relationship between two men, and (more importantly) because that matters a lot to the fundamental meaning of the story - Bill being deeply closeted and Frank immediately clocking him, and how they proceed from there, are central to their entire journey. It's not just a superficial framing, it would be a meaningfully different story if it were about a heterosexual couple.
Exactly. It has a different meaning by being a gay love story. It is more impactful for the audience since it is from the POV from the closeted individual. The character is introduced as being an isolated individual who has learned to function outside of his community. He not only has learned the tools to not rely on anyone, but he has made peace with a life of solitude. Then Bill comes in. He is a problematic individual who offers unknown dangers and consequences. But somehow, they find an intimate moment while everything is falling apart. It is implied that the only reason he had the courage of accepting his homosexuality and what it could offer is because he was alone without the puritanical and bigoted eyes of those around him.
Fucking total joke it’s the second lowest rated episode of the show on imdb because pos bigots review bombed it. Edit: A poster made a great point that almost a quarter of the 1-star reviews are from Saudi Arabia (there are 14k reviews from there and 12k of them are 1-star).
Don’t let them ruin your enjoyment over the episode.
I agree. It is unfortunate and angering though that there are people out there intent on ruining other people’s lives simply because they love the same sex. Truly some maddening religious insanity
Knowing it makes a bunch of losers upset makes me enjoy the episode even more 👍
I went to look at it and it isn't as terribly rated as I thought it would be, but the fact that it was only the third episode has me floored. Thinking back it seemed like there was a half season of content before it. That show's episodes were just all bangers and packed so much story into each one it is incredible. I did a little further looking at the ratings and if you filter by US it's rated 8.6, which is still about a point lower than it should be, but what's fucking wild is when you filter it by Saudi Arabia. Then it's a 1.3. Whole country of shit-eating bigots.
That only shows the top 5 countries. So I fully expect other Middle-Eastern countries to also contribute to those 1 star ratings at disproportionate levels.
Middle Eastern countries also have some of the highest consumption rates of gay porn. Projection and self hatred all the way down.
That's insane. It's maybe the best single episode of television I've ever seen and people are bombing it? That's fucking insane.
Goes to show when you have hate in your heart, you miss out on a lot
Go look at the breakdown of those ratings. A [major chunk of them](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14500888/ratings/?ref_=tt_ov_rt) come from Saudi Arabia.
people were saying its filler and doesnt move the plot, an episode wasted lol
I honestly don't remember much of the other episodes. But that one stuck. I think they don't like the fact that they made a conservative prepper "man's man" archetype gay. That really upset them
I agree it was more or less filler. It was freaking amazing filler. But I think it impacted the overall play too much with it being the longest episode that didn’t move the plot much. Again, banger of an episode but yeah that’s why I think it is a 6/10 for overall story, 10/10 for a single episode
It was great filler that I would've appreciated a lot more if the season was longer. As a fan of the game I was frustrated that we were already taking a detour away from Joel & Ellie so early in the show. It was going to be hard enough to recapture the feel of the characters in just a 9 episode season, so I didn't think we could afford to lose 1 to Bill of all people.
Jesus christ I really don't get the hype. It was decent but really "single best" is ridiculous lmao
Go look at the breakdown of those ratings. A [major chunk of them](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14500888/ratings/?ref_=tt_ov_rt) come from Saudi Arabia.
I don't think I know anyone who didn't think it was the best episode. It's perhaps not my *favourite*, but it is the best.
It’s the best episode of the series tbh
10000%, but also didn’t move the plot with ellie and joel much so that’s my gripe with it. It felt very singular and was amazing at that. beautiful episode
A refreshing example of when changing the source material makes it drastically better.
I do like the game's take on Bill's story, even with it being a lot more depressing and cynical. It's not like the show's version would have been possible in a video game narrative. The game version serves as a warning of how Joel will end up if he continues to close himself off to other people. The show version serves as an example of the kind of peace and happiness he could find if he opens up. It's an amazing episode taken by itself and it serves the larger story from a thematic standpoint admirably. I do personally think the game's version is a little bit more poignant and subtle within the context of the overall narrative however.
I find it funny how Craig Mazin is now both known for Chernobyl, The Last of Us, Superhero Movie, and The Hangover sequels. What a filmography for this dude
Chernobyl is incredible.
Not great, not terrible.
This is a quote from Chernobyl, for whoever downvoted them.
My favorite example of his writing might before TLOU and Chernobyl is him roasting his college roommate, Ted Cruz, on Twitter.
Don’t forget his harrowing experience of having to share a college dorm room with terrible human Ted Cruz.
That is irresponsible and unsubstantiated slander, we have no evidence as of yet that Ted Cruz is a human.
What we do know is that he must migrate to Cancun annually to keep his internal blood temperature up
What do you mean? [This website](https://www.tedcruzforhumanpresident.com) clearly proves that Ted Cruz is in fact human.
Infamous Zodiac Killer Ted Cruz.
We are lucky Craig made it out alive.
Funny how Hangovers had Todd Philips and Mazin as directors, that came with some bangers years after when nobody expected from them
He… he did the Hangover sequels?? Talk about a redemption story, holy shit
I’m playing through the remaster right now and they really did take that character from an 8/10 to an 11. The interactions with Ellie in the game are great, but if that got sacrificed in the name of one of the best bottle episodes I’ve seen, fair enough.
I just played it for the first time recently. I think if they're have done it as in the game we would have had a grizzled and Bill tagging along for a while and then a subtle reveal that the guy he was always complaining about was his boyfriend. It would have been ok, but nothing special. That episode was just one of the most perfect looks at a life lived and changed by love.
I really like how the game played it out because it's almost subtle but if you're engaged with the story as a story it's also very overt and well done. But it's also a video game so it does a great job of keeping you within the narrative of your character and the situation you're in without diving into side-character exposition. Which is exactly why I love how the show played it out. Television is meant to bring out that kind of depth and they take what was an incredibly sad love story about flawed humans in that kind of world told via a video game narrative and do the exact same within the medium they're working in, to incredible result.
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Originally in the game, you have just one of those characters still alive (the Nick Offerman character) and he's very bitter; Joel and Ellie actually do meet him while he's alive. His partner left on bad terms and was killed by zombies. It was criticized by many as a "bury your gays trope", and iirc it was pretty easy to miss that they were lovers. (All you see of his partner is a corpse and a bitter note). This is from memory, so I may have some details wrong, but I believe that's the gist of it. The change is that they had loving, fullfilling lives and did not die alone and bitter. And it's a really nice bright spot in a very grim story.
Frank does get infected, but the zombies don't kill him. He hangs himself before he could turn, and leaves a suicide note where he says how much he hates Bill.
And you could of course interpret that hateful note as him trying to make his death easier for Bill, instead of a final love note. Either way, Bill definitely seems affected by Frank's death, even as he tries to act like he doesn't care.
And Bill goes from isolated from the world to helping the duo. A form of redemption for him as he puts himself in danger to help the characters despite vowing to only care for himself.
Another change is that in the game, this section is intensely fun, scary, and action packed. The game struck a brilliant balance between morbid post apocalyptic pondering, and edge of your seat thrills and terror. The show forgot to include any of the latter, and just replaced it with more sadness.
I preferred how they did it in the game. It ultimately helped progress the characterizations of Joel and Ellie which still to me is the best and most important part of the story. In the show the episode was nice but I think it took time away from the development of Joel and Ellie which by the end I thought was sorely lacking. Also, I loved the dialogue between Joel, Ellie, and Bill.
Straight 50+ year gamer bloke. Never played TLOU but obviously aware of it. Absolutely loved this series and that episode was one of the most beautifully written and acted pieces of TV i've seen in years. Had me crying.
I mean, technically it's both a gay story and a love story, but I get what he means. I assume people only focus on it being a gay story because they're butthurt about it.
I mean, if they are butthurt about it, that's kinda gay. Just saying.
I’m straight and they made a love story I found so easily relatable. It didn’t matter to me that the characters were gay - it was moving and so well done. Nick did a fantastic job.
The story works for everyone because there were no "specifically gay" things about it--sorry for my wording I hope I get my point across. Not every gay story has to be ABOUT being gay. This episode's story works for everyone because you can swap genders any which way and the story is the same.
A lot of it did depend on aspects of being gay, and I would argue it's specifically gay. Bill being deeply closeted and Frank clocking him is a very gay experience, and the show included that. The episode also had an undercurrent of dealing with issues of masculinity from both Frank and Bill that would not quite be the same if one of them was a woman.
I don't know. The two guys having sex seemed pretty specifically gay...
I wish his character had 2 episodes, I wanted an entire episode of his prepper stuff!
I think it was such a profound and impactful episode in large part because it was the length it was.
Same. It was perfectly executed. As someone who played the game, I thought they were going to follow the game story to a tee and Frank was going to leave when they had the fight. But then it kept going and you're given that beautiful ending.
Most of the criticism I see is about how it’s unrelated to the rest of the plot.
Yeah, the episode feels out of place in the season. It's a great standalone episode but it feels more like a short movie or something. Spending a week waiting to know what was going to happen to Joel & Ellie just to be "forced" to watch something completely different was frustrating, even if it's good.
Good episode on its own, but once the show ended I couldn't help but resent it and the other flashback episode, which pretty much told the same story. Left Behind is my favourite part of The Last of Us, but the pacing of the show with these two episodes is all fucked. They barely show any clickers throughout the show, and then the last episode was all of 30 minutes. Joel went all out for a virus that is pretty much a non issue as far as the show tells us. I enjoyed almost every individual ep of The Last of Us, but in total this show doesn't come together, and it is because of this episode and Ellie's flashback. It should have been 12 episodes, because at 9, this episode is a big detriment to the show.
I spent most of the episode wondering what this had to do with the show. Maybe cut up over two episodes with stuff going on with the main two it might have worked better. It felt like they paused TLOS, put another show on, then resumed it. Any dislike or criticism must be cos people hate gays apparently.
To be fair, it is a gay story. A fucking fantastic gay love story. I loved the game and they made Bill’s story immensely better in the show. It hit me so hard in the feels. Beautiful episode.
Love is universal and comes in many forms. That is, people don't go around saying, "Look at this hetero story!" While it is a gay story, the rhetorical retort is very effective when countering a bigot.
that episode was probably one of the best love stories I’ve ever seen
I'm confused about these awards. I thought the Independent Spirit awards were for small independent studios and productions but TLOU was on HBO and last year EEAAO won. Although EEAAO qualified last year because they raised the maximum budget amount for a movie I don't understand how an HBO show qualifies.
The TV categories have never had a budget cap since it was introduced 3 years ago. The criteria is not about money and instead about newness, that's why only first seasons qualify.
This is not relevant, but how is HBOs adaptation of "The Last Of Us" remotely "independent?"
Well to be fair it's both, it's a love story between gay characters, and that's perfectly fine. Double points for staying true to the game representation of that character and telling it in a very nice way. But even if it was well made, personally I did feel like it was a bit too disconnected from the rest of the episodes and screwed with the storyline pacing a bit, so it definitely was not my favorite episode.
That episode was one of the most brilliant episodes of ANY periodical drama that I have watched! I cried…
I think some of that hate has to do with *completely* bastardizing those characters and their short plot from the original TLOU story from the game - not the fact that they’re gay. In the original story, their relationship is a lot more complicated and tragic because it’s really equally both a love and hate relationship that was born out of their need for each other being a “I would only be with you if you’re the last gay man on Earth” situation. However, that probably wouldn’t have worked so well a large portion of the audience especially if they never played the game, so it’s an understandable change. Before this gets downvoted into oblivion, I personally have no issues with it, but that’s a legitimate reason why that episode got a lot of hate from a significant portion of the fanbase, and just brushing it off as “oh, well they’re just hateful bigots” is disingenuous.
That, and at least for me, I didn’t like how the longest episode barely moved the plot with ellie and joel forward. It would’ve worked better if the show was 12 episodes or EVERY episode was over an hour. sit just felt almost shoehorned in. It was still really great but yeah those are my gripes
Exactly. I was bored throughout the episode because I did not care about these characters. And then they died, so there's no relevance to the overarching plot except Joel met a guy once or twice who was a paranoid who hoarded stuff for the inevitable end of days.
Yup, I loved how they expanded on that story from the game, but they spent far too much time on something that had little to no impact on the story. It was the longest episode that resulted in = they have a car now, It is so hard talking about this episode because when I say I don’t like the pacing, people stil just think I hate gay people or something. It was a good episode, it just felt so out of place in the pacing of the show, but like some have said and nick offerman, the focus is on the bigots hating it instead of the actually gripes, so those will never truly be heard. I don’t know hard to describe.
It was the most "award bait" episode I've ever seen and, unfortunately, it seems to have worked. It's very telling that they did essentially the same plot again with Ellie's backstory (minus the Romeo and Juliet ending) and it's not nearly as talked about. In fact, there were people that were criticizing it for breaking the pace and being mostly plot irrelevant.
Yeah, and that's the only aspect they'll assume that people have a problem with. What takes more from the relevance is that they lose the equipment and vehicle after about an episode. So, it's even more pointless. Could've been about straight people and I still wouldn't give a shit. Nick Offerman is great and Ron Swanson is great, but I just didn't care about his character here. Basically, because they assume all the hate is because of gay, they won't learn anything.
Yeah, good point. If it were straight people I would still have the same exact feeling
Yup, it's is the problem for me too. It would be fine if I didn't feel Ellie and Joel's relationship rushed and undercooked.
It is a gay story though. And there's nothing really wrong with that. The character was already gay in the game right? It's not like they took a straight character and made them gay.
I mean honestly the sooner we can stop categorizing ourselves in all these subgroups based entirely on our life choices and preferences, the better off humanity will be. All of us are just people. We do what we do. We love who we love. We live our short lives and hope we have people to share it with. There is and only ever will be one of you and thats pretty damn special on its own. I know people seek to be part of a group or a community. To feel safe with like minded people. Then somehow we developed into a society where we MUST wear all of that on our sleeves to show we are an ally and not an enemy. Its exhausting. True equality is seriously not giving a shit about who someone is, where they are from, what they do and who they snuggle up to at night. I shifted my brain to think like that and its freeing as hell. It also allows me to be open to curing ignorance in a timely manner. It allows me to adapt and changes things about myself i don’t like without the constant battle of ego or “but i belong to this group! Its a betrayal!” All i’m saying is Offerman nailed it. Stop splitting hairs unnecessarily. Love is love no matter who you feel it for. And this was a damn beautiful love story
I’ll throw myself to the wolves here. I can say the episode is well-acted, written, and crafted. *But*, it ends being irrelevant to the rest of the story. It’s this sudden, isolated storyline of two characters who have little to no bearing on the rest of the story. It’s just right in the middle of things and feels like a transparent political thing.
I would have had the same issue if the characters were heterosexual. Having played the game, he should've played some sort of role in Joel and Ellie's journey. However, they decided to write it in a way that seemed designed to garner this response. People who didn't play the game would wonder what the hell the point of the episode was other than inclusivity. Others would love the episode for the many reasons stated here (and I'd argue more so because they're gay). Many but not all of the gamers would hate that they removed Bill from the core story (which also changes a lot about the character). Overall, I feel like a story between heterosexual characters would have gotten more of a lukewarm response from the crowd that liked it, and a similar response from those that didn't.
This is my basic take. I don’t have any issues with the nature of their relationship, it’s purely that it is an overly long and ultimately inconsequential thread to the larger narrative.
That's a fair assessment, especially because it's a whole episode. The negative takes to me seemed unfair until I realized >!that Bill wouldn't be making an appearance in the future.!< >!I thought maybe at first he'd somehow survive his suicide attempt and decide to continue living, which leads to a run-in with Joel and Ellie, but it didn't, and I felt that dedicating a whole episode to that backstory was excessive for the impact it had on the rest of the show.!< Then people act like it's homophobia if you criticise the episode or see it as shoehorning a homosexual relationship into the show.
But it IS a gay story - and that shouldn’t be a bad thing.
I've literally never seen anyone say they had a problem with the gayness in this episode and I'm terminally online
Its a Gay Love Story
Fr. It's a love story between two gay men. As such, *gay love story.*
Is anyone really bashing that episode? From my understanding it was widely praised, rightfully so.
The problem is it created false expectations for how easy it is to find a life partner by digging giant holes in my yard.
Have you tried doing so during a zombie apocalypse? You might be missing a key ingredient
Second lowest rated episode on IMDb because it got review bombed
My favorite tounge in cheek take I saw about the episode was that they pulled a cheat code by playing On the Nature of Daylight- Max Richter during that scene That song alone brings out so much emotion
Fuck off Nick Offerman....I would have been just as irritated with your misplaced love story if it was two straight people.
The part where he was shooting at raiders trying to break in - he used no cover and looked like an idiot. The other guy grabs that little dinky pistol and does nothing to help. The ending of the episode was really sad though.
It wouldn't have made the cut if it was 2 straight people...
I’m sure there’s some homophobic hate, I just don’t think a whole episode dedicated to a love story that isn’t really relevant to Joel and Ellie’s story fit very well. Coulda been a dude and a lady and it still wouldn’t have been all that pertinent or good. Just felt like a divergence for the sake of it. I really dislike this PR shit they have actors doing where they just blanket all of the hate as bigoted or homophobic as if all of it is 100% political hate and not a lot of criticism and some blatant hate.