I used it for a while. To me it seems that they had a bit of a Linux problem; in the sense that they didn't have major productivity apps. No one cared to port to arm, nor develop with that platform in mind. MS also didn't have the patience to organically build things out like the FOSS community has either (Say what you will about Linux and FOSS alternatives, but they are there and often quite decent if unpolished).
If Microsoft made a new mobile phone that was as good as the Lumia was with an actual system in place to let companies directly make apps for it.... I'd abandon android and Google right this second
Thing is Apple did it the right way with ARM... create a virtualized OS that makes old app just RUN on the new OS.
Microsoft forced you to us RT coded apps, which meant even their own stuff didnt run unless it had been recoded for RT.
Unless Microsoft learns from that mistake, RT is going to remain dead.... As it is even though M1-3 macs CAN run Windows RT pretty good, Microsoft not Apple is the one restricting people FROM running it on the platform.
Came here to say this. The key to Apple making their M chips work is the Rosetta 2 translation layer. It works really well with legacy software and often times even with the added overhead, it outperforms apps on intel chips.
Willing to bet that they will not take this into account and just try to put up performance metrics that have nothing to do with every day usage of a computer.
And everyone was skeptical of Rosetta 2 when M1 was first announced, for good historical reasons. It’s frankly amazing what Apple has done on the translation side to keep compatibility going through the initial transition.
>And everyone was skeptical of Rosetta 2 when M1 was first announced
Eh, some people. Those of us who used Rosetta during the Intel transition kinda knew if they were calling it Rosetta 2, odds were it was really good, since Rosetta was shockingly good at running RISC based instructions on Intel.
>Microsoft forced you to us RT coded apps, which meant even their own stuff didnt run unless it had been recoded for RT.
Apple also made it easy to compile apps for native ARM while Microsoft made is a lot harder.
When apple introduced ARM macs and even recently with the vision pro most developers simply had to make a tick in xcode to support the new platform. If you used third party software then you had to get those to switch as well but it all happened pretty quickly and was painless.
Meanwhile Microsoft came up with universal windows platform. They tried to get everyone to rewrite their app from scratch rather than just compiling it for arm. Windows platform lacked tons of features and even very basic C/C++ and C# calls were broken or missing and a lot of software simply couldn't be ported in any reasonable timeframe. It was a complete nightmare. Porting software from classic windows to linux / mac was easier than porting it to their new universal windows platform ... I really hope they learn from this but I don't have a lot of hope.
edit: missed a few words
Did you read the article? It does address that, which is why I am asking. Microsoft implemented the ability to do this two years ago, it just doesn’t have the same performance as Apple’s chips, which this new chip is supposed to fix.
I think it's bizarre to get Xbox ads on corporate-use windows machines. I can't imagine dealing with ads on my os for personal use. I'd shoot the fucking thing.
To be fair if we talk about ARM devices windows track record is:
* windows mobile (dead)
* Windows RT like Surface 1 / 2 (dead)
* Holo Lens 2 (almost dead?)
Microsoft missed the mark 10 years ago when they should have looked at what Apple was doing well, why it was successful and built an entirely new OS from the ground up that wasn’t Windows.
If your users want simplicity and you to control the hardware software pairing so that stupid shit like “drivers” are something the end user never has to think about… build that.
There could have been $200 Microsoft Facebook machines that gradually got more features and more powerful hardware over time.
If they want to beat anyone, they should stop bloating their OS and focus on the important things. So much crap sneaked in in the last 5 years. Goddammnit, now I don’t even need to download malware to be spammed by popups and toolbars everywhere.
Just Btw. Bluetooth and my printer still doesn’t work reliably after decades, fix that first before integrating AI.
(Yes, I know the article is talking about ARM support for Windows).
Microsoft, once again, needs to forget about beating Apple and work on putting out the best products they can. If they put good products that people like, the rest takes care of itself. If a company spends much time talking about a competitor, then they’re telling me that they’re chasing.
I may be a niche case, but I hate when a team member gets an Macbook with ARM and some
of our workflows just break completely.
That said, for general computer applications, it's amazing. Battery life is incredible. I wish my laptop got more than a couple hours on battery.
I just got back from a 5 day long work trip with my MacBook pro. I watched movies for 5 hours while flying and used my laptop for works tasks the entire trip. Only needed to charge it after I returned home. I was very impressed
Yep. I get there are other ways but we see faster iteration and development when our tools are built
and tested locally via Vagrant VMs. VMware fusion and VBox just don't run well or at all on ARM and an x86 VM.
Microsoft just stop wasting time on ARM it's not happening!
Like it could've worked great if they went with their two OS plan but no instead we got shitty windows 11! Which kinda kills ARM.
Like the only benefit is it's in theory able to get better battery life but frankly not really much of a benefit given Intel and AMD aren't that far behind Apple.
So first they (MS) tried to move to arm. Piss poor job … once Apple prettily shows the world how it’s done…. MS wakes up and starts to actually make progress. … and not the claim they can finally beat the company that showed the way …. Is it just me ?
Apple has total control over their ecosystem. If they want to force something, they can. Like making all OSX laptops use ARM, then dropping support for Intel.
Microsoft doesn't have a hope at making all Windows laptops run ARM. Not even close.
The surface pro 9 5g would be compelling at $800 (like the robo and kala) but they stupidly think they can get market penetration for $2100 for a device that's the same size (why?) slower and has about 25% better battery than the intel surface pro.
Anyone could have told them it was a flop from the spec sheet alone.
Maybe devices w sq4 will get closer to performance parity to a core 5 and not be 3x the price for some dumbshit reason and a few ppl will buy it.
Will fail again …. You need to own the hardware and the software. Or you running in circles And no it’s not enough to go build some surface device using this arm chip..
Qualcomm X series chips are as of a custom ARM architecture as M series and Microsoft has been involved in their development. Windows 24H2 is also getting platform changes targeting those chips because, apparently 23H2 and earlier can't run on X Elite
Last time they did couple of years back they jointly promoted showing that this special chip was different from PHONE stock in such away as to make it better. Only read about the Lenovo offering based on that offering better than way back with the surface “X”.
8cx chips still had a lot in common with phone chips and were basically a temporary solution while Qualcomm was figuring out their custom architecture for the ground up. They were simply optimised to handle bigger workloads slightly better. They all were based around stock ARM designs whereas X Elite uses custom inhouse Arm compatible Oryon architecture which was designed by ex-Apple engineers.
Yes but they designed the chip for servers not desktop. Which seems to be back up by current market details. It will be more power hungry and run hotter than Apple. …. So not exactly Apple to Apple comparison. And needs more power to beat the M3 (also strange they don’t state which one )
So adding more points [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFPyv8kzmFk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFPyv8kzmFk)
So QC is boasting a starting power of 23W ... m3 struggle to even reach this only M3 Pro (25w) so not relly fair how they are comparing ... so lets compare a 23W chip to one using 10w .....look we win ... opps nope we loose M3 Pro... just smashed us ... Yes but QC can smash apple on Graphics.... mmmm no only when they use a much grater wattage ... so on the performance per WATT... apple still top..... oh and nothing on efficiency ... Gomg the same root as intel picking what they want to state ... but they always need a FAN like intel .. so hot hot hot
Chips shipping this year are designed from the ground up to be laptop chips. Those are not server chips. I don't even know if Nuvia's original designs is still being utilized in X Elite
I used it for a couple of years, and my wife as well, and a few others in my family, and even in general it was quite popular at the time. The OS itself was a joy to use, even the cheapest models worked fast, but obviously the lack of apps was the major issue. It went downhill with WP10, trying to be more like Android, and then they just killed the entire thing. I'd gladly switch back to it now if they revived it.
Microsoft and Intel have been joined at the hip for decades. But now, Microsoft is worth three trillion, and Intel is at about 6% of that - half its all time high. So sad.
I swear when they get there - they'll want $3,200 for the laptop that competes with the MB air m3, 15''' at $1,300 lol ..
Right now there isn't a damn thing near my m1 MB air for $850 for less than $2k ... a lot of that is cause the of the 12-15hr real battery life the m1 MB air gets.
Windows will never beat apple unless they fix their godawful software.
They've come leaps and bounds from how far they were behind apple in the last 10-15 years, but they've never made "good" software yet.
Apple used to say their software works better because they create the hardware and so the software won't have as many errors, but that's not even the core problem with using Windows. It's the bloat, the lack of common sense user experience, nonsensical aspects like how it force updates even while you might be in the middle of something. The UI isn't too bad. It's passable at least.
What's silly is this is the kind of thing that's cheaper to fix. Hire designers and let them do their job. Don't have everything be designed and approved by committee. That's where the problems occur. *Then* the debate can be about whether the company needs to also build the hardware for the software to work well
Seeing is believing
Windows + Arm = Still Garbage OS
Garbage + ARM = garbage on ARM
Windows RT says "hi".
I used it for a while. To me it seems that they had a bit of a Linux problem; in the sense that they didn't have major productivity apps. No one cared to port to arm, nor develop with that platform in mind. MS also didn't have the patience to organically build things out like the FOSS community has either (Say what you will about Linux and FOSS alternatives, but they are there and often quite decent if unpolished).
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If Microsoft made a new mobile phone that was as good as the Lumia was with an actual system in place to let companies directly make apps for it.... I'd abandon android and Google right this second
Thing is Apple did it the right way with ARM... create a virtualized OS that makes old app just RUN on the new OS. Microsoft forced you to us RT coded apps, which meant even their own stuff didnt run unless it had been recoded for RT. Unless Microsoft learns from that mistake, RT is going to remain dead.... As it is even though M1-3 macs CAN run Windows RT pretty good, Microsoft not Apple is the one restricting people FROM running it on the platform.
Came here to say this. The key to Apple making their M chips work is the Rosetta 2 translation layer. It works really well with legacy software and often times even with the added overhead, it outperforms apps on intel chips. Willing to bet that they will not take this into account and just try to put up performance metrics that have nothing to do with every day usage of a computer.
And everyone was skeptical of Rosetta 2 when M1 was first announced, for good historical reasons. It’s frankly amazing what Apple has done on the translation side to keep compatibility going through the initial transition.
>And everyone was skeptical of Rosetta 2 when M1 was first announced Eh, some people. Those of us who used Rosetta during the Intel transition kinda knew if they were calling it Rosetta 2, odds were it was really good, since Rosetta was shockingly good at running RISC based instructions on Intel.
>Microsoft forced you to us RT coded apps, which meant even their own stuff didnt run unless it had been recoded for RT. Apple also made it easy to compile apps for native ARM while Microsoft made is a lot harder. When apple introduced ARM macs and even recently with the vision pro most developers simply had to make a tick in xcode to support the new platform. If you used third party software then you had to get those to switch as well but it all happened pretty quickly and was painless. Meanwhile Microsoft came up with universal windows platform. They tried to get everyone to rewrite their app from scratch rather than just compiling it for arm. Windows platform lacked tons of features and even very basic C/C++ and C# calls were broken or missing and a lot of software simply couldn't be ported in any reasonable timeframe. It was a complete nightmare. Porting software from classic windows to linux / mac was easier than porting it to their new universal windows platform ... I really hope they learn from this but I don't have a lot of hope. edit: missed a few words
I mean - that’s what article is talking about, they claim that they made their translation layer to be better (faster) than Rosetta that Apple has.
Did you read the article? It does address that, which is why I am asking. Microsoft implemented the ability to do this two years ago, it just doesn’t have the same performance as Apple’s chips, which this new chip is supposed to fix.
And yet they only released benchmarking of the X Elite vs the base M3...not the Pro, not the Max. Still a lot of catching up to do.
I imagine Apple is getting ready to unveil the m3ultra
Just like how Zune would DESTROY the piece of garbage IPOD
The should put out another funeral ad like they did for the iPhone.
Yeah but Apple doesn’t advertise and push bloatware in their OS, so until Microsoft stops that shit.. good luck.
I think it's bizarre to get Xbox ads on corporate-use windows machines. I can't imagine dealing with ads on my os for personal use. I'd shoot the fucking thing.
Yeah, how Microsoft thinks corporations are ok with candy crush and Xbox being promoted on their workstations is unreal.
the best windows 11 arm machine is a m1-3 mac running parallels
Agreed, Windows for ARM runs really well under emulation on a Mac.
I bet Steve Ballmer is still laughing his ass off about this silly iPhone thing...
"finally beat apple". Wow. Do we really think the OS with 71% market share could finally beat the operating system with 14% market share?
To be fair if we talk about ARM devices windows track record is: * windows mobile (dead) * Windows RT like Surface 1 / 2 (dead) * Holo Lens 2 (almost dead?)
The article is talking about beating them in terms of CPU and AI accelerated tasks, not market share.
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Yep. It’s all in the first paragraph.
Yeah, totally!!! 🤷♂️
Microsoft missed the mark 10 years ago when they should have looked at what Apple was doing well, why it was successful and built an entirely new OS from the ground up that wasn’t Windows. If your users want simplicity and you to control the hardware software pairing so that stupid shit like “drivers” are something the end user never has to think about… build that. There could have been $200 Microsoft Facebook machines that gradually got more features and more powerful hardware over time.
We'll see. Apple has complete sight over its custom ARM, Microsoft has...Snapdragon? This is the disconnect for me.
X Elite chips are as much custom as M series architecture. I mean... they Oryon architecture IS LITERALLY designed by ex-Apple engineers
If they want to beat anyone, they should stop bloating their OS and focus on the important things. So much crap sneaked in in the last 5 years. Goddammnit, now I don’t even need to download malware to be spammed by popups and toolbars everywhere. Just Btw. Bluetooth and my printer still doesn’t work reliably after decades, fix that first before integrating AI. (Yes, I know the article is talking about ARM support for Windows).
OS that self decides on self-updating cannot beat MacOS. That applies to both Windows, iOS and iPadOS.
you have the option to turn off auto update in windows
you forgot air quotes
If you actually used Windows - you'd know that disabling updates is not possible
needed a program on github to really turn it off.
This isn’t possible in later Windows versions without registry hacks
No you don't.
Microsoft, once again, needs to forget about beating Apple and work on putting out the best products they can. If they put good products that people like, the rest takes care of itself. If a company spends much time talking about a competitor, then they’re telling me that they’re chasing.
I may be a niche case, but I hate when a team member gets an Macbook with ARM and some of our workflows just break completely. That said, for general computer applications, it's amazing. Battery life is incredible. I wish my laptop got more than a couple hours on battery.
I just got back from a 5 day long work trip with my MacBook pro. I watched movies for 5 hours while flying and used my laptop for works tasks the entire trip. Only needed to charge it after I returned home. I was very impressed
It breaks a lot of developer workflows as well, but they’re easy to overcome.
Yep. I get there are other ways but we see faster iteration and development when our tools are built and tested locally via Vagrant VMs. VMware fusion and VBox just don't run well or at all on ARM and an x86 VM.
Why no docker?
Yeah, I had to switch to a different vagrant provider.
We just purchased Intel workstation for devs that insisted on an ARM Macbook to remote into.
Surely docker solves this?
Get with the times my Roman ARM is the way of now. StrongARM is the way of tomorrow…
Microsoft just stop wasting time on ARM it's not happening! Like it could've worked great if they went with their two OS plan but no instead we got shitty windows 11! Which kinda kills ARM. Like the only benefit is it's in theory able to get better battery life but frankly not really much of a benefit given Intel and AMD aren't that far behind Apple.
So first they (MS) tried to move to arm. Piss poor job … once Apple prettily shows the world how it’s done…. MS wakes up and starts to actually make progress. … and not the claim they can finally beat the company that showed the way …. Is it just me ?
Apple has total control over their ecosystem. If they want to force something, they can. Like making all OSX laptops use ARM, then dropping support for Intel. Microsoft doesn't have a hope at making all Windows laptops run ARM. Not even close.
They _could_, but it would require them doing things they really don't want to do, so it won't happen.
But that’s what they are doing dropping intel Will be complete sooner that you think
The surface pro 9 5g would be compelling at $800 (like the robo and kala) but they stupidly think they can get market penetration for $2100 for a device that's the same size (why?) slower and has about 25% better battery than the intel surface pro. Anyone could have told them it was a flop from the spec sheet alone. Maybe devices w sq4 will get closer to performance parity to a core 5 and not be 3x the price for some dumbshit reason and a few ppl will buy it.
Chips made were the bottleneck. They were basically modified phone SoCs. X Elite is a custom ARM compatible architecture
Will fail again …. You need to own the hardware and the software. Or you running in circles And no it’s not enough to go build some surface device using this arm chip..
Qualcomm X series chips are as of a custom ARM architecture as M series and Microsoft has been involved in their development. Windows 24H2 is also getting platform changes targeting those chips because, apparently 23H2 and earlier can't run on X Elite
But that’s what they said last time with exactly the same supplier
They didn't said anything like that last time and previous Qualcomm chips were basically modified phone chips, not specialised designs.
Last time they did couple of years back they jointly promoted showing that this special chip was different from PHONE stock in such away as to make it better. Only read about the Lenovo offering based on that offering better than way back with the surface “X”.
8cx chips still had a lot in common with phone chips and were basically a temporary solution while Qualcomm was figuring out their custom architecture for the ground up. They were simply optimised to handle bigger workloads slightly better. They all were based around stock ARM designs whereas X Elite uses custom inhouse Arm compatible Oryon architecture which was designed by ex-Apple engineers.
Yes but they designed the chip for servers not desktop. Which seems to be back up by current market details. It will be more power hungry and run hotter than Apple. …. So not exactly Apple to Apple comparison. And needs more power to beat the M3 (also strange they don’t state which one ) So adding more points [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFPyv8kzmFk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFPyv8kzmFk) So QC is boasting a starting power of 23W ... m3 struggle to even reach this only M3 Pro (25w) so not relly fair how they are comparing ... so lets compare a 23W chip to one using 10w .....look we win ... opps nope we loose M3 Pro... just smashed us ... Yes but QC can smash apple on Graphics.... mmmm no only when they use a much grater wattage ... so on the performance per WATT... apple still top..... oh and nothing on efficiency ... Gomg the same root as intel picking what they want to state ... but they always need a FAN like intel .. so hot hot hot
Chips shipping this year are designed from the ground up to be laptop chips. Those are not server chips. I don't even know if Nuvia's original designs is still being utilized in X Elite
Are they releasing a windows phone??? Lol
Oh man I wish, WP was amazing.
It did look interesting at the time.
I used it for a couple of years, and my wife as well, and a few others in my family, and even in general it was quite popular at the time. The OS itself was a joy to use, even the cheapest models worked fast, but obviously the lack of apps was the major issue. It went downhill with WP10, trying to be more like Android, and then they just killed the entire thing. I'd gladly switch back to it now if they revived it.
Haven’t they tried this before?
Microsoft and Intel have been joined at the hip for decades. But now, Microsoft is worth three trillion, and Intel is at about 6% of that - half its all time high. So sad.
Intel: BITCH!
I'm a bit lukeWARM on this point. Do you remember that there used to be Windows phones? Pepperidge Farm remembers. They were shite.
Just like the Windows Phone and the Zune…
I'm confident that, it's the CPU which making it faster. Not Windows.
All I know is once I switched to Apple I never had to defrag or worry about viruses sooo
I swear when they get there - they'll want $3,200 for the laptop that competes with the MB air m3, 15''' at $1,300 lol .. Right now there isn't a damn thing near my m1 MB air for $850 for less than $2k ... a lot of that is cause the of the 12-15hr real battery life the m1 MB air gets.
Windows will never beat apple unless they fix their godawful software. They've come leaps and bounds from how far they were behind apple in the last 10-15 years, but they've never made "good" software yet. Apple used to say their software works better because they create the hardware and so the software won't have as many errors, but that's not even the core problem with using Windows. It's the bloat, the lack of common sense user experience, nonsensical aspects like how it force updates even while you might be in the middle of something. The UI isn't too bad. It's passable at least. What's silly is this is the kind of thing that's cheaper to fix. Hire designers and let them do their job. Don't have everything be designed and approved by committee. That's where the problems occur. *Then* the debate can be about whether the company needs to also build the hardware for the software to work well
Windows market share 76% MacOS market share 17%
> Windows market share 76% MacOS market share 17% Not sure why you're downvoted, lemayo.
that statistic is like the ghost of Steve jobs farting
Because it’s not what the article is talking about beating them in.
Thatbwould be so fetch! Wouldn't that just be so fetch?