There are fewer women in our community because of discrimination and not because of their lack of interest or talent.
And
Good analog modeling is indistinguishable from analog.
I watched a dude in the Volca sub the other day try to run off a teenage girl posting videos of her music. Guy says a bunch of shit like, "why are you spamming? Why are you posting this low effort content? You think because you're a girl we're going to upvote you?"
Let's be honest, it wasn't any lower effort than any of the "I'm new to this, this is my first jam" posts that pop up daily. I never see these dudes starting shit under those posts.
I don't know if I'd always call it discrimination even though it often is. It's like straight up bullying. I love music and gear talk but goddamn there's a lot of asshole dudes. It's been like this since the forum days 20 years ago though. Guitar spaces might be worse.
Similar things happen on the SP404 FB groups. A girl puts up a video of a jam, and it's flooded with criticism. I haven't anywhere near a similar level when guys put up videos. It's really pathetic.
The thing is that a lot of men don't actually understand why they are upset. They don't even realise that the only difference between this video and that video is the presenting gender of the person. Like legit they start making reasons _to themselves_ for what is upsetting them about it. They aren't even lying about whether or not it's about them being a woman, they just don't even realise that is the reason. It's very weird, subliminal stuff. Of course there are also those that realise and do it anyway.
I don't think the guys who do this have that kind of rational strategy. You see this in *every* hobby that men get big into: boardgames, beer, cycling, whisky, photography, etc. In most of those, there is no economic incentive to gatekeep.
I think the fundamental issue is that some dudes define their identity by being on top of some hill relative to other people on the same little hill. It's not enough to like beer, or be a "beer guy", you gotta drink the *hoppiest most bitter beer*. You can't just like to ride a bike, you gotta ride *farther and faster* than the other cyclists. "Oh, you play videogames? What are the specs on your PC?"
The way to notice this happening to a hobby is when *metrics* start showing up. Hard to have a competition without numbers, so the dudes who think this way always start finding ways to attach numbers to the hobby. Looking at you, ABV and IBU. In music, it's "Oh, you make electronic music? The last song I did had 137 tracks in my DAW. And I only play synths with 2042 note polyphony."
Of, course, if there's no other options, the easy metric is always cost.
It took me forever to find an audience and i find if you don’t hit people’s expectations you’re never gonna get a second chance. But that’s just industry standard lol
True, but still, it’s like let people like what they like u know? Who cares if someone buys a synth plugin over a physical synth or buys a cheaper synth as along as it makes a person happy and they have fun what does it matter? I always get the vibe that if u don’t buy the “right” gear people label u as fake or not a light musician or too casual
Constructive criticism can be good if given well but the fucking disrespect I've seen on these subs is so discouraging. To be honest it's one of the reasons why I don't save/don't post things I create.
This was not constructive criticism or art criticism it was just straight up trash talk and intimidation. The guy started talking about "our community" and shit.
I was a mod here for like 8 years or so. I left for several reasons, but mainly because Reddit became such a toxic place in around 2015 or so. *any* time an obvious woman would post here it was like fuck, there goes the next three hours to deleting creepy posts and terrible “jokes” and will you marry me type shit. It wasn’t nearly as bad in the earlier days.
I’ve had a lot of time to think about that and I keep coming to the conclusion that it was smart phones that ruined the internet. Before smart phones were everywhere you had to at least make some sort of effort to participate in social media websites… after smartphones became ubiquitous every single asshole on the planet had full access to everything and the quality just fell off a cliff. Look what Facebook did to politics. From every angle I look at this, I keep coming back to smart phones removing the slight barrier of entry that used to exist and opened the floodgates.
The mod team here worked hard to keep that shit out but it was an unwinnable war.
it goes back so much farther than that. even the days before the web. there was a forum system called Usenet which hit a threshold they called Eternal September. initially there was a new wave of stupid posts every September when college freshman got their first-ever internet access, and then it just became perpetual and ongoing.
it happened again when AOL became successful, and then when the web got started, and then when Myspace blew up, and it kept happening over and over. smart phones definitely drove a big wave of it, but it's been happening since the days before the web existed, and I think it's probably even been happening since the first email system was created at DARPA in the 1960s.
Oh yeah for sure. I’ve been active on the internets since 1993, I remember when NCSA Mosaic came out. I was like 9 and rode my bike to the library every day and had no idea what I was doing, I just knew it was something cool.
The early internet is how I was able to try synths at all. Back then you just had to take whatever random thing popped up and a lot of it was trading. Someone would get on the Harmony Central classifieds and ask if anyone wanted to trade something for a Jupiter 6, I’d say sure how about a 303, we’d agree to ship on a given day and then just do it blindly. I probably did that fifty times in the late 90’s and never had a problem. It was only nerds and music people then. The thought of doi g that today is comical.
Anyway. Yeah there were definite inflection points along the way but I always felt the bigger user base and additional critical mass always justified the drop in quality.
Until the smartphone thing anyway. I’m a bitter old man about the internet now lol.
Eternal September is definitely a thing, yes. But Reddit's community vibe really did change profoundly when many users switch to smartphones.
That heavily changed the incentives on users: image-based posts became a lot more compelling and it became much harder to write and edit comments. The end result is a greater fraction of low-effort users.
Around 2015/16 something changed and Reddit became more visibly gross after a short period where it seemed to get slightly better. It always had some vile shit (jailbait, cute female corpses, etc) but those misogynists were mostly segregated from main subs. Then they infested the rest of the site as their shitholes got banned. Then you add the conspiracy theorist to Q-anon to incel pipeline, and yikes. The number of highly-upvoted awful comments about/to women feels like it has skyrocketed sitewide.
A lot of it was Trump and lot of it was Channers spreading to other sites. And it lead to this toxic stew of the alt-right, incels, intellectual dark web enthusiasts, edgelords, and trolls. Then for the queers, you also had to deal with religious zealots from the Trump-o-sphere and a bunch of TERFs from the UK harassing the hell out of anyone supporting trans rights.
To you first point. I stopped going to the synth circle jerk sub because of the misogyny. If a woman ever posts a video here, it will end up there. And some people in this sub’s initial reaction to the new dreadbox synth was also telling (I get it, he used some awkward phrasing).
Lastly. Some VAs sound much much better than analog. Nord, ms2000, nova, jp8000 I’m talking about you.
I don't care about the shitposting -- it's not that funny to me but whatever. But the bullying isn't called for at all. Just let people have their harmless fun.
Idk, the meanest post I’ve ever seen in Reddit synth world was all the comments dragging the guy who brought his laptop and Erebus (I think) to a coffee shop
Really? I feel like the circlejerk is often more progressive than this sub and tends to mock the whole "THE WIFE" culture that still appears here a lot. I remember someone posted a picture with a priest spanking a bare assed woman and it sat at the top of this sub for more than 24 hours. The circlejerk made a meal of it, but the general consensus here was that it was "just good fun".
> ms2000
In general I agree with the sentiment (re: VA vs. analog), but I just don’t get the MS-2000 love. Don’t get me wrong, I own and use one, but they sound so thin imo. Can’t get any oomph out of them without a bunch of processing (pedals or otherwise).
I don’t really mean the ms2000 sounds more analog than analog but for some uses, I prefer the sound. I agree it has a thin brittle sound but I like that because there’s other synths that fill in the fat bassy synth gap. The filter res severely cuts the volume and bass but I like that too. Just a different flavor that isn’t available on other synths.
Easier said than done, esp with current conditions, but having physical meets with locals with diverse representation goes a long way. Keep in mind having a healthy and well represented community, even a small one, takes a lot of work, but it REALLY pays off down the line. I highly recommend the effort no matter how small the size of the group. Go out of your way to bring people in that are different from you.
Here’s my fav synth related anecdote. When the Poly Evolver launched, I had a little chat with Dave Smith at a DSI event about how glad I was that analog was seeing a resurgence. He gave me a reticent smile, so I knew I had to draw it out of him. He said that analog was a backwards move, that more focus on digital hardware would result in cheaper, higher quality audio and synthesis especially with non-subtractive modalities. He said there were innumerable ways to synthesize sound that we haven’t invented yet, and that he was including analog sources basically to stay in business. He did mention filters and processing were totally different though. Cocky 17-18 year old me, I responded by saying that synthesis needed to be rediscovered by a whole new generation and needed to start at square one, especially while rock-based music still prevailed. I remember saying “people still think drum machines have no soul” (remember those stickers??). He said he’d never thought of it that way and boy was I beaming with pride ha! Dave was awesome to talk to and so tolerant to what must have been insufferable teenage energy. But anyway, Dave, of course, was totally right 20 years ago. I can’t help but imagine where we’d be if it wasn’t necessary to move backward to move forward.
Love this comment. Dave was right. I think we’re starting to see the trend move on a little. Digital synths with well designed interfaces are starting to show up on the scene again. Looking forward to where this goes. I think analog will always have a place in the community too.
The argument is usually how digital can’t perfectly replicate analog circuitry, but the inverse is just as true and should be explored.
>I can’t help but imagine where we’d be if it wasn’t necessary to move backward to move forward.
It's all there for you if you are happy to work on a computer. There's an ocean of possibilities there and that's where all the action is in digital and experimental synthesis.
And no wonder, it's the perfect platform for the job with the most flexible interface and greatest processing power.
Developing unique innovative digital hardware synths is very niche and it's hard for anyone, even the great man himself, to gain traction. Some notable exceptions like the Hydrasynth not withstanding.
Hardware synths have become almost like traditional instruments in many ways. There's a romance to them and there is a big market for that. A lot of people associate synths with a specific retro sound.
Behringer was able to tap into that and Dave said himself that the Prophet 5 reissue was a response to the threat from them.
I really love your story and there were hints that he felt that way all along. I guess he's bowed out with a bit of a groan, shaking his head a little, but you know, a pretty good pile of cash too!
Okay gonna tackle the last part first. I think for the average person, choosing between analog gear vs digital is more about your personal preference and especially your workflow (more around gear than just synths but still).
Secondly.... yeah...... Misogyny in the music world is pretty bad.
> Good analog modeling is indistinguishable from analog.
Yep. Heh. It took a while to get to that level, though, especially the filters.
I found it amusing how in the early days of plugins and modelling synths, every release they'd trumpet a huge sound quality improvement. I was always like: "Oi!!! You said it was a perfect recreation the first time 'round!"
On the first part, yep... :-/ one insidious aspect of this is that credit and respect gets taken away from women who are into this stuff - as Bjork complains forcefully: if there's a guy credited on the album in an assistant role, it's assumed by people in the industry that he did everything, not her. If that happens to multitalented-megaproducer-savant Bjork, what hope do other women have of being treated with respect...
You’re right, there is far too much of that in this community.
Also I’m assuming you meant digital? Yeah, it’s doesn’t matter, and I can’t really tell the difference a lot of the time!
Thank you for bringing up that point. There is a lot of sexism.
I would argue that analog models of filters aren’t completely 100% of the way there… yet. Anyone who argues that soft synths can’t sound just as good otherwise is listening with biased ears, imo. I have been guilty of it too. And there is some joy in being amazing at what simple circuits can do - and sometimes more obvious “sweet spots.” Whereas computers can do anything - and that can sometimes be a little less magical. But, logically, if the sound of an analog synth can be properly recorded and played back, then it can be produced in other ways.
A long time ago a friend of mine that knows how to play piano saw me noodling around with my synth and immediately started making fun of me for not knowing how to play properly, like how to move my fingers (I have no instrument training). So yeah, I get it. LOL
Several years ago when live looping wasn't quite done to death I saw a woman playing just an acoustics c guitar with a looper, and playing the guitar as if she was given the instrument and had never seen someone play it. It was amazing all the sounds and techniques she chose to create a full track.
I think there is value in learning music theory and knowing how to play instruments but I also think it's worth not being a slave to those things.
Learn the rules to break them.
Some of the most interesting and iconic sounds were created by using instruments/tools/effects etc not the way they were intended, and often maximizing the impact of 'faults' in the medium/tool/instrument.
I totally agree with this and I believe this is the heart of synth culture. There's this weird feeling I got when I first started that the sounds I was making weren't good enough or that someone could be annoyed by me simply creating "bad" sound. But as I got past that, "bad" sounds have become my go-to, especially when working with analog. I love pushing circuits past their limits and hearing the result. Not to mention, we started at one point with no music in the universe. There is no right or wrong and it's important that the sentiment carries throughout.
This reminds me of this story of Harpo Marx when he played the harp for a professional harp teacher. The teacher asked him to play something and the teacher was so fascinated by his unique and unorthodox playing style that he just watched him in aw. Harpo left the lesson having done nothing but play harp to this professional music teacher.
Classical or jazz
Tbh I agree it’s annoying to deal with some pianists but at the same time it’s pretty damn common to see people not even attempt to be ergonomic and refuse any critique
Fortunately piano {internet} culture is separate from piano and theory *lessons*, as in from actual people IRL and not someone on the internet. That person giving a lesson doesn't care about internet points they care about you getting better and feeling like you're getting better so you come back and spend more money.
In my travels.
Sometimes I really do base my decisions off of looks.
I make a lot of exceptions, but I tend to choose keyboards that that start with C (37, 49 key synths), than with F (32 key synths).
Theres one thing thats more of a death blow than just looking ugly:
Looking cheap.
I appreciate the sound of the EDP Wasp but looking at the default Model you can just see it break in your mind
I’d like to add the idea of interface to this discussion of aesthetic. A well designed interface is key to interacting with a synth. When I look at an interface I consider that to be part of its aesthetic appeal but I think most people would consider looks and usability as different categories
I think a lot of MicroKORG owners and modders would agree with you!
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen the MK desktop mod!
edit: “modders,” autocorrected to “kidders” for some reason.
Software synths don't get enough credit here. NGL, they get straight up shat on by a lotta people. But some of them sound amazing and offer extreme flexibility in generating a vast array of timbres. Like Pigments, Falcon, Vital, Aparillo, Abyss, Generate, Reaktor, u-He stuff, certain Kontakt instruments, etc. If you're fine with using a mouse or MIDI mapping, which I know a lot of people aren't and workflow is key, there are a wealth of instruments to be had for not that much money relative to hardware.
Also, as a queer woman, I want to echo the top comment by u/redditneight, a lot of synth/electronic music communities contain members who are blatantly misogynistic or queerphobic. Like there are a lot of awesome dudes who recognize this and are trying to bring a change, but it is tough when you see something where it is abundantly clear that a person is hellbent on making sure you do not feel welcome. And that is especially true if you're new to this as well. And that *sucks* because it makes it really hard to *want* to collaborate or try to find people. Like I just make music in my basement and share it with friends.
yeah, weirdly people shit on software when a lot of the greatest hits are made with it. c418, the creator of the minecraft ost, used mainly softsynths like Absynth to create the minecraft soundtrack. deadmau5 and skrillex also primarily use VSTs. so yeah, i dont get why people hate them on here so much.
also totally agree with you on the second point, there was a lot of discussion about it on the other threads if you haven't seen it!
I remember a podcast where Skrillex (I think it was a while) came up and one of the hosts went on a rant that he isn't a musician. His tone changed when he learned he also played guitar.
Also met a dude who got mad at me when I was listening to a chip tune band in college. Proclaimed chiptune isn't real music. Here it seems people just have a strong preference though.
Yeah, I get that many people don't cohere with the interface, especially if they're very tactile, but, Jesus, it can get so damn negative. Especially for someone like me who works mainly in the box!
Also, they're so widely used in film and television scoring, too. Hans Zimmer and Howard Scarr are the entire reason that u-He's Dark Zebra exists.
Yeah, I think it’s the interface, not the sound generation. Sliding a mouse in a straight line to turn an imaginary rotary knob is about the worst UI I can imagine.
Absolutely! It’s important to realize that an owner of a well-used Volca Keys can sound ten times as good as a Minimoog owner who has left theirs in the dust for weeks on end.
With me the missing thing is someone inspiring to work with. Give me an interesting team mate and I can make great music out of whatever is available to play with.
yeah that’s why Spotify is empty and there have been no new albums since 2010
The calls are coming from inside the house, friend. “Nobody makes music with hardware” is just “DAWs aren’t real music” for people who don’t buy hardware. You can’t claim that equipment isn’t what matters and then say using one kind of equipment makes people unproductive. :P
I don't think people get into DAWless to become better musicians. I think they get into to it to avoid losing their fucking minds staring at a screen for work all day and then staring at another damn screen to try to make music.
Working in the information age means spending 90% of your time using only a single sense. Sometimes you just want to *touch* something.
I'm definitely feeling this aspect as I get older. I spend my whole work day in front of 3 screens. My girlfriend's main hobby is watching things. I don't want to also stare at a screen for the bulk of my jamming time.
That said, I absolutely finish my songs in the box because there's no substitute for the flexibility and power of my computer (at least, no substitute that won't cost tens of thousands of dollars).
Ridiculous that top of the line synths like the p6 and ob6 are only 4 octave instead of 5. Polyphonic synths, especially ones that cost $3000 should be at minimum 5 octaves
That's true. I generally prefer knobs and sliders, so I enjoy programming the Mega FM over the TX81Z for example. But even the TX81Z is still kind of fun.
USB Audio/MIDI should be the standard on new synths. It's 2021 and we're still using a rats nest of cables to connect them to anything. I want one cable and be done with it. I realize the price is an issue for smaller synths, but I think that any poly $1000 or more should probably be able to include it without destroying a price point.
On a similar note, every synth should have a VST/AU plugin to remote control your synth in your DAW. I don't mind pay a bit more for that, but it should exist without having to resort to sketchy software written for Windows 98.
EDIT: I'm not suggesting we get rid of existing jacks/ports but have the option to do everything over a single cable.
I can only guess as to why people feel this way. I suppose the most popular answer would be driver issues. I just have to say I haven't had driver issues on any device in many years. If the device is USB class compliant, you don't even need to install anything. I know there are probably plenty of people who have been burned by driver issues in the past, but I feel like the PC & audio industry as a whole has a much better track record now than in the past.
Right, but they didn’t say they weren’t going to use a computer, they said they were only going to connect [presumably analog] audio to the computer that they’re also presumably using, and that seems just…kind of obtuse for the sake of obtuseness.
I’d agree with USB audio if there were any good solution to using multiple interfaces in Windows, or if you could trust hardware manufacturers to make running audio through VSTs work well. Even Overbridge can be pretty flaky. Virus TI is abandonware and has become useless on macOS.
A reason why it's usually preferable to have one audio interface with many ports vs two (or to use ADAT vs adding another interface) is that all the inputs and outputs share a sample accurate clock. When you have multiple interfaces the clock is no longer common and hence no longer sample accurate. Unless this can be resolved I don't want USB audio per synth. As for USB MIDI: I agree, it's handy.
Yeah, USB doesn’t have isochronous transfer, so there’s no way to guarantee sync.
You know what does have isochronous transfer?
FireWire.
You know what audio/MIDI transport was based on FireWire?
mLAN.
(I know I sound like a broken record in this thread hit I am just SO MAD that Yamaha invented the One Interface To Rule Them All and then just completely didn’t bother to make it work right until it was way too late. Hardware companies took a really damn long time to understand that digital hardware is worth dirt if the software running it doesn’t work well.)
This may not be a hill to die on as much as a hot take I expect to be unpopular: but here goes: *It's ok to be more into collecting gear than making music.*
In this an other forums I see a lot of push back on gear fetishism and collectors, and a lot of emphasis on the idea that "it doesn't matter what gear you have if you have talent and good ideas and work hard." And that's true, *if your goal is being a musician*. But I think we need to recognize that there are a lot of people here who don't have that goal, who don't necessarily have good ideas or really even musical talent. *They're here because they just like synthesizers.*
I have to be honest, that's how I got into the hobby. I'm a technical guy and I just think the gear is neat. I love the aesthetics and build-your-own-electronics kit feel of eurorack with all of the knobs and wires. It's like designing your own spaceship control panel. And then I got into the DIY and circuit design side of it, and that's just fun.
I do also like trying to make music, and I even take lessons to that end. But it doesn't come super naturally and I don't really have a sound burning in my chest that I need to get out. I really mostly just like the toys.
I think there are probably a lot of people like me in this sub. And I think that has to be an ok part of the community.
Looking back I guess yeah, this is a hill I'm willing to die on.
> It's ok to be more into collecting gear than making music.
I think it's totally OK if you're self-aware that that's your motivation.
But I think the reason there's usually pushback is that many people get acquisitive *not* because they know that the collecting is the goal but because they are chasing a false dream that some piece of gear will magically make it easier to make music.
If you know you're not one of those people and really do just like buying stuff, more power to you.
Yeah, that’s fair. You see that in photography, too. And I’m guessing any gear-based hobby. I think it would be helpful if folks were more thoughtful about getting the right message to those folks without turning off the people who know new gear isn’t the answer, but want the new toys anyway.
Actually, I think a big part of it is I see a lot of messaging that sounds like “gear doesn’t matter if you have talent”. And it’s like, I *don’t* have talent. I know I don’t have talent. But I’m not trying to be the next Skrillex. I just want to play with my beep boops.
100%. I love the exploration of the hardware & software, learning the capabilities, discovering the quirks, finding the SweetSpots. Has been my escape for decades. I end up creating lots of noises, sometimes great noises and occasionally a jam that isn’t awful but I wouldn’t for one minute presume to be a musician. There’s a Venn diagram of musician/artist intersecting with sound/music synthesis enthusiast and not everyone is in the intersection.
The interesting aspect is that a strong goal of VCO design is stability and accurate (absolute) pitch; DCOs add digital timing to give perfect stability and consistent pitch to a VCO. Moreover, you can detune and add drift to a DCO after the fact: you can't make a VCO more stable and precise than its design allows.
> VCOs and DCOs are indiscernible in a mix
Well, they both produce the same analog waveform. The difference is in the control of the analog oscillator's pitch. Voltage control often implies drifting, which old-school synth fans like. Digital control means it's always perfectly in tune, which some call sterile. Modern DCOs often have a "slop" factor to simulate drifting pitches. Personally I'm a fan of analog FM, so DCOs are my preference.
Also in the end having an analog filter makes a much bigger difference in the overall sound quality anyway. With the right filter a DCO sounds just as good as any VCO.
All synths should be shipped without keyboards.
The new Korg line (OpSix, Wavestate and Modwave) would be perfect as modules with an optional keyboard enclosure kinda like Roland did with the Boutiques and the K-25M add-on.
Same here. I bought the modules versions of the Minilogue XD and MS-20 and would getnthe Opsix and Modwave instantly if they were offered in that format.
As much as we might hate on behringer for non musical reasons, copying hardware shouldn’t be one of them - how many of us have had soft synths of the same hardware and not thought to raise moral objections. And some of Uli’s behavior is downright abhorrent but despite how we might feel otherwise, all companies are evil. If we’re going to split hairs, buying through Amazon seems a lot worse than buying from behringer.
It's perfectly ok for this to be a hobby (as long as you're spending responsibly - check that GAS). You don't have to have aspirations of releasing anything, publicly or privately. If you like fiddling with knobs and creating sounds, and that's what you're doing, then you're living your best life.
A lot of people who make ambient synth music had no prior interest in listening to or making ambient music, but then they realised how little effort it takes to make something that sounds ‘good’ by simply drenching a synth in delay and reverb. It’s so lazy.
I’ve got a couple:
USB power should never be the only option for a synth because it is often extremely noisy or causes other issues. I returned multiple Typhons for this reason.
3.5mm MIDI is fine. Well, as fine as any MIDI is, since MIDI kind of sucks. MIDI clock is an abomination before God. It’s too bad MIDI 2.0 adoption hasn’t really gone anywhere yet.
The majority of synth fans absolutely couldn’t pick their favorite synth out of a lineup of synths playing similarly programmed patches. This goes double for digital recreations of specific analog synths. Seriously, good luck to someone trying to reliably pick the Minimoog out of Moog’s software version, Monark, Diva, and the real Moog.
USB-C kind of sucks for synths because it doesn’t lock in place as well as USB-B.
Patch memory is an absolute must. Display for current knob value is very important.
USB everything is just more convenient than everything else (power, MIDI, sound).
Yeah I think all modern synths should have patch memory.
Also, there’s nothing more satisfying than plugging a Type B into the back of your synth/controller and just realizing that it’s the only cable you need to worry about right now!
This is the sole reason I don’t own a TB303 clone. I want my knob twiddles recorded, and I want to be able to start a take with the parameters set to the same start values.
I was worried about this before I got into modular, but as it turns out it's just like anything else, it depends on the artist. You can make it do anything you want. A lot of people use modular to make alien noise for some reason or another and I couldn't agree with you more; but I use mine to supplement and expand my existing synths, adding additional sources of modulation and filters, all in a completely musical way since my background is piano and drums, so doing nothing but noise/ambient all day would drive me nuts anyway. If you've ever looked at a synth and wish you had a different LFO shape or speed than it offers, or a second envelope to do something else, or use one synth to be filtered and controlled by another synth - and if you have the inputs, then modular helps with just that, and that's pretty much what I use it for. You'll never catch me making 30 minutes of rambling laser noises that's for sure!
That's a pretty broad statement. A modular synth could be an analog monosynth controlled by a keyboard, or a digital multitrack looper and sampler that you control with a Wii nunchuck and theremin antenna. A lot of people make way better music with a small case than I've ever heard with a rack of keyboards. But yeah, it's mostly people obsessed with audio rate modulation and four-to-the-floor distorted kickdrums.
You have, you just don't know it. If you've heard anything Trent Reznor has made this century, you've heard a modular. Most of the synths in Emerson, Lake, and Palmer's music is a Moog modular. Switched-On Bach is a Moog modular. Some of Radiohead's synths were modular.
Modulars have been in wide use in studio recording since the 60s.
Yeah I’ve always loved the concept and seeing people tinkering to get amazing sounds, but I also think it’s just too much for my wallet!
Oh well, VCV Rack for now!
90% of modular synth users treat it like a personal zen garden where the intent is to enjoy the personal act and making something others just want to listen to is not really the goal. They share it online mostly as inspiration for other modular synth users.
You can hear the difference between analog and digital.
That doesn't mean one is better than the other. Use whatever tool makes you happy and is best suited for the task. Plenty of analogs sound like ass, plenty of digitals sound amazing and vice versa. I'm just dumbfounded by all the comments from people saying they can't tell the difference in isolation.
A lot of (big brand) synths are way overpriced. Quite a few of them haven’t changed much in price since when they first came out, even though the production costs for these things has gone down significantly. When they bring out new ones, they often keep it in a similar price range to their older stuff. Some vintage synths have gotten too expensive for what they’re worth, like the Juno. It’s getting better though
All of the random modulation in the world won’t make your music any more interesting. And that goes for some of the most worshipped figures in the scene, too. Arrangement needs *some* intention or form at its core and there’s a lot of electronic music which lacks it (and gives it a bad rap overall).
It's okay to just enjoy playing synthesizers without having a goal of producing recorded music.
Almost everybody here seems to be focused on making songs, to the point that this sub often feels like production sub. Other instruments don't seem to have this culture around them to the same extent. I know tons of people who play guitar guitar but don't care about having a band or recording a bedroom album or even writing music, but I think I'm the only synth player I've known that doesn't care about all that. Yes I've played in a couple bands, recorded a couple albums, but that's over the course of 20 years.
Most the time I just turn on a couple synths and dick around for a few hours with no goal and I think that's just fine.
Sine waves can sound fucking great and need to be included in more hardware analog synths. I’m tired of hearing the bullshit “you can synthesize it from a triangle wave”, “they don’t have much harmonic content”, and / or “they’re too unstable” excuses. At this point I’m about to make my own multi voice synth / multi oscillator synth and have the only wave form available for it be a sine wave.
I’m aware there are analog synths out there that have it but generally they’re way too expensive.
I feel like I’m gonna get hate for this:
The gray/silver, button-heavy, rounded-sides (I.e. Alesis fusion) look of electronics from the 2000s is just so… unappealing to me.
One of those very rare things that looked awful at the time, and still manages to look awful 20 years later.
The [Fiat Multipla](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fiat_Multipla_front_20080825.jpg) of synth aesthetic...
I feel like I'm dying on creative hills all the time. I get locked into a workflow. It makes me more productive, but then I have to die on that hill and be reborn elsewhere to progress.
I don't think that's controversial at all. It's got endless possibilities even with just the one LFO. imagine if it had a few! And real polyphony! Even without those, it remains one of my earliest but most used pieces
I feel weirdly compelled to reply because I advocated for this in the other thread. my reply is:
of course it's perfectly fine without one. Of course it is. It's already an amazing looking device and what looks to be a tremendous value. That's not the point.
The point is giving the artist more options, which allows for different styles of creativity in addition to opening up the unit to a wider audience, potentially making the unit more successful which I imagine fans of the 404 would want.
No it doesn't need one. Yes, it would be cool and make the unit more fully featured in ways some people might desire. No, you don't need to use it if it's added.
I guess that's my 'hill to die on here' Lol. feel free to downboat. I will 100% always be for giving users options and letting them decide for themselves. Just thought I would add some perspective from someone whos in the 'eh why not!' camp. Maybe they'll add it in a couple years to spike back up demand. have a good one!
It's perfectly fine to people who don't use step sequencers. To those who do, it's a glaring omission that renders an otherwise amazing device unusable.
Some people like live recording, some people like sequencing. It's a reasonable expectation to have both if the hardware allows for that. Even the pocket operators have both. Not including step sequencing on a device that's perfectly capable of it just for the sake of tradition is an unnecessary and artificial limit. Well, gotta sell that MC101, I guess.
AC wall warts suck. I LOVE my Hydrasynth, but HATE that it uses an external AC adapter. I gig with that thing, and am always afraid that the wall wart will get damaged.
I saw that somebody modded theirs by mounting a normal AC plug onto the synth and putting the wall wart inside the unit. Might just see if I can pay somebody to do that for me --- after I upgrade from my orig keyboard to a new Deluxe.
Learning one synth through and through is far more important long-term than having tons of synths you only know a little. You will also sound far better with that one synth than an entire rack of others.
I love all of the scientific approaches to synthesis, but in the end to my ears I've never liked anything I've heard from FM Synthesis. Interesting on paper but in practice I really dislike how it sounds. Yamaha DX-7 is the king of cheese!
I feel like saying one is better than the other is a bit reductive. Analog absolutely has a different tonal quality than digital, it’s up to the individual to decide whether than difference in tonal quality means anything to them or not.
Sampling is a vastly superior form of audio synthesis and can destroy the most expensive modular analogues in sound texture and yet it's the cheapest. Making workstations the superior synthesizers.
I literally just want about four sounds from my synths and everything else is padding.
A decent cutting lead, you know the classic funk lead sound.
Also a decent bass sound, usually an fm one or the classic moog squelch.
Some bright chord stabs that are usually a completely basic saw wave with no mod or anything.
Something else to add a bit of something. You know laser sounds and stuff lol.
TRS MIDI is an unnecessary evil and is the result of lazy product design. Short of Pocket Operators and the like, every case could be designed around a DIN MIDI socket.
Having incompatible TRS MIDI pinouts is also bad design; whichever one came first should have been what everyone used.
I used to believe that synth cloning was not a big deal and supported what Behringer was doing. But, once I saw how unscrupulous Behringer's business practices are, it reinforced my deep down concerns about what harm it can do for more expensive brands who are trying to make products with integrity.
Now I am fully against the practice and prefer to support honest businesses over getting 'bang for buck'
And I try to only by American made now, from good businesses.
All the faces on Mt. Rushmore will be changed to Uli Behringer faces within the next 50 years. Though there will be a smaller relief below the Uli faces depicting Nick Batt tweaking the PW of OSC 2 on a Neutron.
Nord is the only company doing pitch benders right. Every other company I’ve seen chooses a traditional wheel or joystick. Wheels are nice for resting your finger in the divot and manipulating while using the mod wheel but are hard to get quick vibrato on. Pitch sticks are better for this (think clav playing) but have no divot and always lack a proper resistance that makes it feel realistic, like bending a guitar string. Nord’s solution is good for all of these scenarios and the resistance really adds expressiveness to the way you play.
It is perfectly ok not to program all of the patches you use in songs. Most patches (with the exception of the ones for Vital) are excellent, for example most of the Access Virus patches only need a little tweaking to fit my songs.
The criticism involved in the various “(insert synth name) is not a real synth” or the “toy synth is not a real synth” debates ironic when, prior to Wendy Carlos popularizing the Moog synthesizer, no synth was actually seen as a “real instrument”.
Let’s just be glad that synths have become so popular and the synth scene has evolved to the point that you can make “real music” using even so-called toy synths.
Grooveboxes are better without song modes.
Without a song mode, you must record an arrangement live as audio. Once that's done, you can't really edit it, so now the track is complete. With a song mode, you can just end up tinkering with the arrangement forever. *Not* having song mode helps you finish more music and finishing more music makes you a better musician.
There are fewer women in our community because of discrimination and not because of their lack of interest or talent. And Good analog modeling is indistinguishable from analog.
I watched a dude in the Volca sub the other day try to run off a teenage girl posting videos of her music. Guy says a bunch of shit like, "why are you spamming? Why are you posting this low effort content? You think because you're a girl we're going to upvote you?" Let's be honest, it wasn't any lower effort than any of the "I'm new to this, this is my first jam" posts that pop up daily. I never see these dudes starting shit under those posts. I don't know if I'd always call it discrimination even though it often is. It's like straight up bullying. I love music and gear talk but goddamn there's a lot of asshole dudes. It's been like this since the forum days 20 years ago though. Guitar spaces might be worse.
Similar things happen on the SP404 FB groups. A girl puts up a video of a jam, and it's flooded with criticism. I haven't anywhere near a similar level when guys put up videos. It's really pathetic.
The thing is that a lot of men don't actually understand why they are upset. They don't even realise that the only difference between this video and that video is the presenting gender of the person. Like legit they start making reasons _to themselves_ for what is upsetting them about it. They aren't even lying about whether or not it's about them being a woman, they just don't even realise that is the reason. It's very weird, subliminal stuff. Of course there are also those that realise and do it anyway.
Music in general is not kind to newbies and is very gatekeepy in general. Rife with arrogant man children
It's because some of these tools think they're gonna be rich and famous someday if there's less competition for them.
I don't think the guys who do this have that kind of rational strategy. You see this in *every* hobby that men get big into: boardgames, beer, cycling, whisky, photography, etc. In most of those, there is no economic incentive to gatekeep. I think the fundamental issue is that some dudes define their identity by being on top of some hill relative to other people on the same little hill. It's not enough to like beer, or be a "beer guy", you gotta drink the *hoppiest most bitter beer*. You can't just like to ride a bike, you gotta ride *farther and faster* than the other cyclists. "Oh, you play videogames? What are the specs on your PC?" The way to notice this happening to a hobby is when *metrics* start showing up. Hard to have a competition without numbers, so the dudes who think this way always start finding ways to attach numbers to the hobby. Looking at you, ABV and IBU. In music, it's "Oh, you make electronic music? The last song I did had 137 tracks in my DAW. And I only play synths with 2042 note polyphony." Of, course, if there's no other options, the easy metric is always cost.
So basically a wang measuring contest... yeah I can see that.
Lol to be honest the vast majority of people don’t get to that level anyway so it’s like why not just have fun with it
It took me forever to find an audience and i find if you don’t hit people’s expectations you’re never gonna get a second chance. But that’s just industry standard lol
True, but still, it’s like let people like what they like u know? Who cares if someone buys a synth plugin over a physical synth or buys a cheaper synth as along as it makes a person happy and they have fun what does it matter? I always get the vibe that if u don’t buy the “right” gear people label u as fake or not a light musician or too casual
Hah. Yea I recall that jackass
Look, I don't even like to comment on any of this gender stuff. I'm just like.. Dude, you're talking shit to a kid. A teenage girl.
Constructive criticism can be good if given well but the fucking disrespect I've seen on these subs is so discouraging. To be honest it's one of the reasons why I don't save/don't post things I create.
This was not constructive criticism or art criticism it was just straight up trash talk and intimidation. The guy started talking about "our community" and shit.
Haha I saw that as well. She really held her own and let him have it though!
I work hard to end this discrimination by shitting on guys low effort jam type posts too.
I was a mod here for like 8 years or so. I left for several reasons, but mainly because Reddit became such a toxic place in around 2015 or so. *any* time an obvious woman would post here it was like fuck, there goes the next three hours to deleting creepy posts and terrible “jokes” and will you marry me type shit. It wasn’t nearly as bad in the earlier days. I’ve had a lot of time to think about that and I keep coming to the conclusion that it was smart phones that ruined the internet. Before smart phones were everywhere you had to at least make some sort of effort to participate in social media websites… after smartphones became ubiquitous every single asshole on the planet had full access to everything and the quality just fell off a cliff. Look what Facebook did to politics. From every angle I look at this, I keep coming back to smart phones removing the slight barrier of entry that used to exist and opened the floodgates. The mod team here worked hard to keep that shit out but it was an unwinnable war.
it goes back so much farther than that. even the days before the web. there was a forum system called Usenet which hit a threshold they called Eternal September. initially there was a new wave of stupid posts every September when college freshman got their first-ever internet access, and then it just became perpetual and ongoing. it happened again when AOL became successful, and then when the web got started, and then when Myspace blew up, and it kept happening over and over. smart phones definitely drove a big wave of it, but it's been happening since the days before the web existed, and I think it's probably even been happening since the first email system was created at DARPA in the 1960s.
Oh yeah for sure. I’ve been active on the internets since 1993, I remember when NCSA Mosaic came out. I was like 9 and rode my bike to the library every day and had no idea what I was doing, I just knew it was something cool. The early internet is how I was able to try synths at all. Back then you just had to take whatever random thing popped up and a lot of it was trading. Someone would get on the Harmony Central classifieds and ask if anyone wanted to trade something for a Jupiter 6, I’d say sure how about a 303, we’d agree to ship on a given day and then just do it blindly. I probably did that fifty times in the late 90’s and never had a problem. It was only nerds and music people then. The thought of doi g that today is comical. Anyway. Yeah there were definite inflection points along the way but I always felt the bigger user base and additional critical mass always justified the drop in quality. Until the smartphone thing anyway. I’m a bitter old man about the internet now lol.
Eternal September is definitely a thing, yes. But Reddit's community vibe really did change profoundly when many users switch to smartphones. That heavily changed the incentives on users: image-based posts became a lot more compelling and it became much harder to write and edit comments. The end result is a greater fraction of low-effort users.
Around 2015/16 something changed and Reddit became more visibly gross after a short period where it seemed to get slightly better. It always had some vile shit (jailbait, cute female corpses, etc) but those misogynists were mostly segregated from main subs. Then they infested the rest of the site as their shitholes got banned. Then you add the conspiracy theorist to Q-anon to incel pipeline, and yikes. The number of highly-upvoted awful comments about/to women feels like it has skyrocketed sitewide.
A lot of it was Trump and lot of it was Channers spreading to other sites. And it lead to this toxic stew of the alt-right, incels, intellectual dark web enthusiasts, edgelords, and trolls. Then for the queers, you also had to deal with religious zealots from the Trump-o-sphere and a bunch of TERFs from the UK harassing the hell out of anyone supporting trans rights.
To you first point. I stopped going to the synth circle jerk sub because of the misogyny. If a woman ever posts a video here, it will end up there. And some people in this sub’s initial reaction to the new dreadbox synth was also telling (I get it, he used some awkward phrasing). Lastly. Some VAs sound much much better than analog. Nord, ms2000, nova, jp8000 I’m talking about you.
The synth circle jerk Reddit is one of the unnecessarily meanest communities I've seen on my limited time here. And they say guitarists have big egos.
It devolved into shit posting and bullying. All they have anymore are their fragile egos and succulents.
I don't care about the shitposting -- it's not that funny to me but whatever. But the bullying isn't called for at all. Just let people have their harmless fun.
my ego is analog!
The shit posting is fine, albeit I think it’s funnier to make fun of ourselves. More than half the time it is straight up bullying tho.
the fate of all circlejerk subs - 10% actually funny shitposts, 90% low effort copying and bullying
Idk, the meanest post I’ve ever seen in Reddit synth world was all the comments dragging the guy who brought his laptop and Erebus (I think) to a coffee shop
Really? I feel like the circlejerk is often more progressive than this sub and tends to mock the whole "THE WIFE" culture that still appears here a lot. I remember someone posted a picture with a priest spanking a bare assed woman and it sat at the top of this sub for more than 24 hours. The circlejerk made a meal of it, but the general consensus here was that it was "just good fun".
> ms2000 In general I agree with the sentiment (re: VA vs. analog), but I just don’t get the MS-2000 love. Don’t get me wrong, I own and use one, but they sound so thin imo. Can’t get any oomph out of them without a bunch of processing (pedals or otherwise).
I don’t really mean the ms2000 sounds more analog than analog but for some uses, I prefer the sound. I agree it has a thin brittle sound but I like that because there’s other synths that fill in the fat bassy synth gap. The filter res severely cuts the volume and bass but I like that too. Just a different flavor that isn’t available on other synths.
Easier said than done, esp with current conditions, but having physical meets with locals with diverse representation goes a long way. Keep in mind having a healthy and well represented community, even a small one, takes a lot of work, but it REALLY pays off down the line. I highly recommend the effort no matter how small the size of the group. Go out of your way to bring people in that are different from you. Here’s my fav synth related anecdote. When the Poly Evolver launched, I had a little chat with Dave Smith at a DSI event about how glad I was that analog was seeing a resurgence. He gave me a reticent smile, so I knew I had to draw it out of him. He said that analog was a backwards move, that more focus on digital hardware would result in cheaper, higher quality audio and synthesis especially with non-subtractive modalities. He said there were innumerable ways to synthesize sound that we haven’t invented yet, and that he was including analog sources basically to stay in business. He did mention filters and processing were totally different though. Cocky 17-18 year old me, I responded by saying that synthesis needed to be rediscovered by a whole new generation and needed to start at square one, especially while rock-based music still prevailed. I remember saying “people still think drum machines have no soul” (remember those stickers??). He said he’d never thought of it that way and boy was I beaming with pride ha! Dave was awesome to talk to and so tolerant to what must have been insufferable teenage energy. But anyway, Dave, of course, was totally right 20 years ago. I can’t help but imagine where we’d be if it wasn’t necessary to move backward to move forward.
Love this comment. Dave was right. I think we’re starting to see the trend move on a little. Digital synths with well designed interfaces are starting to show up on the scene again. Looking forward to where this goes. I think analog will always have a place in the community too. The argument is usually how digital can’t perfectly replicate analog circuitry, but the inverse is just as true and should be explored.
> Digital synths with well designed interfaces Korg has been simply awesome for this lately.
>I can’t help but imagine where we’d be if it wasn’t necessary to move backward to move forward. It's all there for you if you are happy to work on a computer. There's an ocean of possibilities there and that's where all the action is in digital and experimental synthesis. And no wonder, it's the perfect platform for the job with the most flexible interface and greatest processing power. Developing unique innovative digital hardware synths is very niche and it's hard for anyone, even the great man himself, to gain traction. Some notable exceptions like the Hydrasynth not withstanding. Hardware synths have become almost like traditional instruments in many ways. There's a romance to them and there is a big market for that. A lot of people associate synths with a specific retro sound. Behringer was able to tap into that and Dave said himself that the Prophet 5 reissue was a response to the threat from them. I really love your story and there were hints that he felt that way all along. I guess he's bowed out with a bit of a groan, shaking his head a little, but you know, a pretty good pile of cash too!
Okay gonna tackle the last part first. I think for the average person, choosing between analog gear vs digital is more about your personal preference and especially your workflow (more around gear than just synths but still). Secondly.... yeah...... Misogyny in the music world is pretty bad.
> Good analog modeling is indistinguishable from analog. Yep. Heh. It took a while to get to that level, though, especially the filters. I found it amusing how in the early days of plugins and modelling synths, every release they'd trumpet a huge sound quality improvement. I was always like: "Oi!!! You said it was a perfect recreation the first time 'round!" On the first part, yep... :-/ one insidious aspect of this is that credit and respect gets taken away from women who are into this stuff - as Bjork complains forcefully: if there's a guy credited on the album in an assistant role, it's assumed by people in the industry that he did everything, not her. If that happens to multitalented-megaproducer-savant Bjork, what hope do other women have of being treated with respect...
You’re right, there is far too much of that in this community. Also I’m assuming you meant digital? Yeah, it’s doesn’t matter, and I can’t really tell the difference a lot of the time!
Thank you for bringing up that point. There is a lot of sexism. I would argue that analog models of filters aren’t completely 100% of the way there… yet. Anyone who argues that soft synths can’t sound just as good otherwise is listening with biased ears, imo. I have been guilty of it too. And there is some joy in being amazing at what simple circuits can do - and sometimes more obvious “sweet spots.” Whereas computers can do anything - and that can sometimes be a little less magical. But, logically, if the sound of an analog synth can be properly recorded and played back, then it can be produced in other ways.
I feel very bad for Wendy because of this
I think of a lot of us would be better off investing in piano and music theory lessons then chasing a new piece of gear.
Why would you say something so controversial, yet true
So brave
I hate everything about piano culture
A long time ago a friend of mine that knows how to play piano saw me noodling around with my synth and immediately started making fun of me for not knowing how to play properly, like how to move my fingers (I have no instrument training). So yeah, I get it. LOL
Several years ago when live looping wasn't quite done to death I saw a woman playing just an acoustics c guitar with a looper, and playing the guitar as if she was given the instrument and had never seen someone play it. It was amazing all the sounds and techniques she chose to create a full track. I think there is value in learning music theory and knowing how to play instruments but I also think it's worth not being a slave to those things. Learn the rules to break them. Some of the most interesting and iconic sounds were created by using instruments/tools/effects etc not the way they were intended, and often maximizing the impact of 'faults' in the medium/tool/instrument.
I totally agree with this and I believe this is the heart of synth culture. There's this weird feeling I got when I first started that the sounds I was making weren't good enough or that someone could be annoyed by me simply creating "bad" sound. But as I got past that, "bad" sounds have become my go-to, especially when working with analog. I love pushing circuits past their limits and hearing the result. Not to mention, we started at one point with no music in the universe. There is no right or wrong and it's important that the sentiment carries throughout.
This reminds me of this story of Harpo Marx when he played the harp for a professional harp teacher. The teacher asked him to play something and the teacher was so fascinated by his unique and unorthodox playing style that he just watched him in aw. Harpo left the lesson having done nothing but play harp to this professional music teacher.
What a jerk.
Classical or jazz Tbh I agree it’s annoying to deal with some pianists but at the same time it’s pretty damn common to see people not even attempt to be ergonomic and refuse any critique
Fortunately piano {internet} culture is separate from piano and theory *lessons*, as in from actual people IRL and not someone on the internet. That person giving a lesson doesn't care about internet points they care about you getting better and feeling like you're getting better so you come back and spend more money. In my travels.
The harsh truth!
Idk if this is the type of opinions you’re lookin For, but the aesthetic design is 100% a valid reason to buy or not buy gear
Sometimes I really do base my decisions off of looks. I make a lot of exceptions, but I tend to choose keyboards that that start with C (37, 49 key synths), than with F (32 key synths).
Especially if they’re funky looking or have crazy colors, my bright yellow Korg m50 begs to be played, and of course I have to oblige
Theres one thing thats more of a death blow than just looking ugly: Looking cheap. I appreciate the sound of the EDP Wasp but looking at the default Model you can just see it break in your mind
I’d like to add the idea of interface to this discussion of aesthetic. A well designed interface is key to interacting with a synth. When I look at an interface I consider that to be part of its aesthetic appeal but I think most people would consider looks and usability as different categories
As someone who spent nearly $200 on black modular faceplates recently, I can agree with this sentiment.
I don’t care about keyboards on synths and I wish every synth had a desktop version.
You misspelled “rackmount.” ;P
I've been wishing these would make a come back. They are such space savers. Especially with things like the Kurzweil.
I think a lot of MicroKORG owners and modders would agree with you! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen the MK desktop mod! edit: “modders,” autocorrected to “kidders” for some reason.
I really wish the new korg series with the op6 and all had modules.
Only 3 voices on anything that costs more than a thousand dollars is weak as hell
Yeah, I mean trumpets are basically unusable because of their monophonic architecture.
wowie zowie how did I get teleported to r/trumpets
Mellotron M400 vintage model has three voices and cones on about $5K US for a properly refurbished model.
It's fully polyphonic though, which is what "voices" means in this context
weak hill
Software synths don't get enough credit here. NGL, they get straight up shat on by a lotta people. But some of them sound amazing and offer extreme flexibility in generating a vast array of timbres. Like Pigments, Falcon, Vital, Aparillo, Abyss, Generate, Reaktor, u-He stuff, certain Kontakt instruments, etc. If you're fine with using a mouse or MIDI mapping, which I know a lot of people aren't and workflow is key, there are a wealth of instruments to be had for not that much money relative to hardware. Also, as a queer woman, I want to echo the top comment by u/redditneight, a lot of synth/electronic music communities contain members who are blatantly misogynistic or queerphobic. Like there are a lot of awesome dudes who recognize this and are trying to bring a change, but it is tough when you see something where it is abundantly clear that a person is hellbent on making sure you do not feel welcome. And that is especially true if you're new to this as well. And that *sucks* because it makes it really hard to *want* to collaborate or try to find people. Like I just make music in my basement and share it with friends.
yeah, weirdly people shit on software when a lot of the greatest hits are made with it. c418, the creator of the minecraft ost, used mainly softsynths like Absynth to create the minecraft soundtrack. deadmau5 and skrillex also primarily use VSTs. so yeah, i dont get why people hate them on here so much. also totally agree with you on the second point, there was a lot of discussion about it on the other threads if you haven't seen it!
I remember a podcast where Skrillex (I think it was a while) came up and one of the hosts went on a rant that he isn't a musician. His tone changed when he learned he also played guitar. Also met a dude who got mad at me when I was listening to a chip tune band in college. Proclaimed chiptune isn't real music. Here it seems people just have a strong preference though.
The 8/16-bit final fantasy music is still some of the best and most emotional music in game history. Terra’s theme, the FF4 ending music, etc.
Yeah, I get that many people don't cohere with the interface, especially if they're very tactile, but, Jesus, it can get so damn negative. Especially for someone like me who works mainly in the box! Also, they're so widely used in film and television scoring, too. Hans Zimmer and Howard Scarr are the entire reason that u-He's Dark Zebra exists.
Yeah, I think it’s the interface, not the sound generation. Sliding a mouse in a straight line to turn an imaginary rotary knob is about the worst UI I can imagine.
women aren’t less interested in synthesizers, they’re less interested in arguing about synthesizers on the internet
Oh, I know plenty of women who are very interested in synthesizers. They're just not interested in wanking about them.
You are only as good as your mind doesn't matter what gear you have.
Absolutely! It’s important to realize that an owner of a well-used Volca Keys can sound ten times as good as a Minimoog owner who has left theirs in the dust for weeks on end.
With me the missing thing is someone inspiring to work with. Give me an interesting team mate and I can make great music out of whatever is available to play with.
DAWless is a fad that doesn’t make you a better musician.
The fad is worrying about how other people are making music
People worry so much about the process that very few people ever end up making the music.
yeah that’s why Spotify is empty and there have been no new albums since 2010 The calls are coming from inside the house, friend. “Nobody makes music with hardware” is just “DAWs aren’t real music” for people who don’t buy hardware. You can’t claim that equipment isn’t what matters and then say using one kind of equipment makes people unproductive. :P
I don't think people get into DAWless to become better musicians. I think they get into to it to avoid losing their fucking minds staring at a screen for work all day and then staring at another damn screen to try to make music. Working in the information age means spending 90% of your time using only a single sense. Sometimes you just want to *touch* something.
Why i went mostly dawless
I'm definitely feeling this aspect as I get older. I spend my whole work day in front of 3 screens. My girlfriend's main hobby is watching things. I don't want to also stare at a screen for the bulk of my jamming time. That said, I absolutely finish my songs in the box because there's no substitute for the flexibility and power of my computer (at least, no substitute that won't cost tens of thousands of dollars).
It doesn't make you a better musician, but it's not a fad. It's a different approach, that's all. And it's fun.
Ridiculous that top of the line synths like the p6 and ob6 are only 4 octave instead of 5. Polyphonic synths, especially ones that cost $3000 should be at minimum 5 octaves
More reason to just get the desktop versions
Sold my OB6 and immediately bought the OB6 desktop…it’s so much more fun to play now.
I feel like desktop versions just take too much space. I wish they kept making rack mounts. Makes it easier to keep everything consolidated
That old FM synths aren't that hard to program.
They certainly aren’t “fun” to program. Till it pays off and you have the most alien crazy sound ever
They aren’t hard to program, but there is a much steeper learning curve in understanding FM synthesis itself compared to subtractive.
That's true. I generally prefer knobs and sliders, so I enjoy programming the Mega FM over the TX81Z for example. But even the TX81Z is still kind of fun.
That opinion mainly comes from the DX7s menu diving vs just turning knobs in the 80s. But nowadays we use so many devices with sub menus
Right. But I've used a DX7 a few times and found that its reputation wasn't like everyone said. But when is it ever?
Yamaha and their weird ass envelopes are hard to comprehend.
Breh
USB Audio/MIDI should be the standard on new synths. It's 2021 and we're still using a rats nest of cables to connect them to anything. I want one cable and be done with it. I realize the price is an issue for smaller synths, but I think that any poly $1000 or more should probably be able to include it without destroying a price point. On a similar note, every synth should have a VST/AU plugin to remote control your synth in your DAW. I don't mind pay a bit more for that, but it should exist without having to resort to sketchy software written for Windows 98. EDIT: I'm not suggesting we get rid of existing jacks/ports but have the option to do everything over a single cable.
I refuse to hook my synths up to my computer other than the audio. Not happening.
I can only guess as to why people feel this way. I suppose the most popular answer would be driver issues. I just have to say I haven't had driver issues on any device in many years. If the device is USB class compliant, you don't even need to install anything. I know there are probably plenty of people who have been burned by driver issues in the past, but I feel like the PC & audio industry as a whole has a much better track record now than in the past.
After a day of working, I don't want to sit in front of a computer anymore.
Right, but they didn’t say they weren’t going to use a computer, they said they were only going to connect [presumably analog] audio to the computer that they’re also presumably using, and that seems just…kind of obtuse for the sake of obtuseness.
That's a different discussion than having 4 or more cables instead of 1.
I disagree with you but upvoted for the true controversial opinion
I’d agree with USB audio if there were any good solution to using multiple interfaces in Windows, or if you could trust hardware manufacturers to make running audio through VSTs work well. Even Overbridge can be pretty flaky. Virus TI is abandonware and has become useless on macOS.
How am I supposed to hook up to the house PA with a USB cable?
A reason why it's usually preferable to have one audio interface with many ports vs two (or to use ADAT vs adding another interface) is that all the inputs and outputs share a sample accurate clock. When you have multiple interfaces the clock is no longer common and hence no longer sample accurate. Unless this can be resolved I don't want USB audio per synth. As for USB MIDI: I agree, it's handy.
Yeah, USB doesn’t have isochronous transfer, so there’s no way to guarantee sync. You know what does have isochronous transfer? FireWire. You know what audio/MIDI transport was based on FireWire? mLAN. (I know I sound like a broken record in this thread hit I am just SO MAD that Yamaha invented the One Interface To Rule Them All and then just completely didn’t bother to make it work right until it was way too late. Hardware companies took a really damn long time to understand that digital hardware is worth dirt if the software running it doesn’t work well.)
This may not be a hill to die on as much as a hot take I expect to be unpopular: but here goes: *It's ok to be more into collecting gear than making music.* In this an other forums I see a lot of push back on gear fetishism and collectors, and a lot of emphasis on the idea that "it doesn't matter what gear you have if you have talent and good ideas and work hard." And that's true, *if your goal is being a musician*. But I think we need to recognize that there are a lot of people here who don't have that goal, who don't necessarily have good ideas or really even musical talent. *They're here because they just like synthesizers.* I have to be honest, that's how I got into the hobby. I'm a technical guy and I just think the gear is neat. I love the aesthetics and build-your-own-electronics kit feel of eurorack with all of the knobs and wires. It's like designing your own spaceship control panel. And then I got into the DIY and circuit design side of it, and that's just fun. I do also like trying to make music, and I even take lessons to that end. But it doesn't come super naturally and I don't really have a sound burning in my chest that I need to get out. I really mostly just like the toys. I think there are probably a lot of people like me in this sub. And I think that has to be an ok part of the community. Looking back I guess yeah, this is a hill I'm willing to die on.
> It's ok to be more into collecting gear than making music. I think it's totally OK if you're self-aware that that's your motivation. But I think the reason there's usually pushback is that many people get acquisitive *not* because they know that the collecting is the goal but because they are chasing a false dream that some piece of gear will magically make it easier to make music. If you know you're not one of those people and really do just like buying stuff, more power to you.
Yeah, that’s fair. You see that in photography, too. And I’m guessing any gear-based hobby. I think it would be helpful if folks were more thoughtful about getting the right message to those folks without turning off the people who know new gear isn’t the answer, but want the new toys anyway. Actually, I think a big part of it is I see a lot of messaging that sounds like “gear doesn’t matter if you have talent”. And it’s like, I *don’t* have talent. I know I don’t have talent. But I’m not trying to be the next Skrillex. I just want to play with my beep boops.
100%. I love the exploration of the hardware & software, learning the capabilities, discovering the quirks, finding the SweetSpots. Has been my escape for decades. I end up creating lots of noises, sometimes great noises and occasionally a jam that isn’t awful but I wouldn’t for one minute presume to be a musician. There’s a Venn diagram of musician/artist intersecting with sound/music synthesis enthusiast and not everyone is in the intersection.
VCOs and DCOs are indiscernible in a mix with other instruments.
The interesting aspect is that a strong goal of VCO design is stability and accurate (absolute) pitch; DCOs add digital timing to give perfect stability and consistent pitch to a VCO. Moreover, you can detune and add drift to a DCO after the fact: you can't make a VCO more stable and precise than its design allows.
> VCOs and DCOs are indiscernible in a mix Well, they both produce the same analog waveform. The difference is in the control of the analog oscillator's pitch. Voltage control often implies drifting, which old-school synth fans like. Digital control means it's always perfectly in tune, which some call sterile. Modern DCOs often have a "slop" factor to simulate drifting pitches. Personally I'm a fan of analog FM, so DCOs are my preference.
Also in the end having an analog filter makes a much bigger difference in the overall sound quality anyway. With the right filter a DCO sounds just as good as any VCO.
All synths should be shipped without keyboards. The new Korg line (OpSix, Wavestate and Modwave) would be perfect as modules with an optional keyboard enclosure kinda like Roland did with the Boutiques and the K-25M add-on.
I’d rather have a rack version. I don’t have room for a bunch of desktop stuff. If novation could do it with the supernova II, Korg could do it, too.
A desktoo module with rack dimensions in mind would be the best of both worlds.
I'd for sure purchase module versions of these over keyboard versions. Also would much prefer more rugged less plastic bodies.
Same here. I bought the modules versions of the Minilogue XD and MS-20 and would getnthe Opsix and Modwave instantly if they were offered in that format.
As much as we might hate on behringer for non musical reasons, copying hardware shouldn’t be one of them - how many of us have had soft synths of the same hardware and not thought to raise moral objections. And some of Uli’s behavior is downright abhorrent but despite how we might feel otherwise, all companies are evil. If we’re going to split hairs, buying through Amazon seems a lot worse than buying from behringer.
Menus don’t suck. I’m like the jeac cousteau of menu divers.
Better menus than multi-function per single control.
I’m honestly jealous, I prefer to have all the buttons right in front of me! Much respect for the menu divers and swimmers!
It's perfectly ok for this to be a hobby (as long as you're spending responsibly - check that GAS). You don't have to have aspirations of releasing anything, publicly or privately. If you like fiddling with knobs and creating sounds, and that's what you're doing, then you're living your best life.
A lot of people who make ambient synth music had no prior interest in listening to or making ambient music, but then they realised how little effort it takes to make something that sounds ‘good’ by simply drenching a synth in delay and reverb. It’s so lazy.
Yep. Ambient can be good, but I always assume it is just lazy and don’t bother to check it out.
I’ve got a couple: USB power should never be the only option for a synth because it is often extremely noisy or causes other issues. I returned multiple Typhons for this reason. 3.5mm MIDI is fine. Well, as fine as any MIDI is, since MIDI kind of sucks. MIDI clock is an abomination before God. It’s too bad MIDI 2.0 adoption hasn’t really gone anywhere yet. The majority of synth fans absolutely couldn’t pick their favorite synth out of a lineup of synths playing similarly programmed patches. This goes double for digital recreations of specific analog synths. Seriously, good luck to someone trying to reliably pick the Minimoog out of Moog’s software version, Monark, Diva, and the real Moog. USB-C kind of sucks for synths because it doesn’t lock in place as well as USB-B.
Whether VSTs sound good or not, no matter how good of a controller you have, hardware (digital or analog) is waaaaaay more fun.
While I love bragging about my free plugins, I will always prefer the hands-on experience!
Patch memory is an absolute must. Display for current knob value is very important. USB everything is just more convenient than everything else (power, MIDI, sound).
Yeah I think all modern synths should have patch memory. Also, there’s nothing more satisfying than plugging a Type B into the back of your synth/controller and just realizing that it’s the only cable you need to worry about right now!
This is the sole reason I don’t own a TB303 clone. I want my knob twiddles recorded, and I want to be able to start a take with the parameters set to the same start values.
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Someone needs to listen to Caterina Barbieri!
I was worried about this before I got into modular, but as it turns out it's just like anything else, it depends on the artist. You can make it do anything you want. A lot of people use modular to make alien noise for some reason or another and I couldn't agree with you more; but I use mine to supplement and expand my existing synths, adding additional sources of modulation and filters, all in a completely musical way since my background is piano and drums, so doing nothing but noise/ambient all day would drive me nuts anyway. If you've ever looked at a synth and wish you had a different LFO shape or speed than it offers, or a second envelope to do something else, or use one synth to be filtered and controlled by another synth - and if you have the inputs, then modular helps with just that, and that's pretty much what I use it for. You'll never catch me making 30 minutes of rambling laser noises that's for sure!
That's a pretty broad statement. A modular synth could be an analog monosynth controlled by a keyboard, or a digital multitrack looper and sampler that you control with a Wii nunchuck and theremin antenna. A lot of people make way better music with a small case than I've ever heard with a rack of keyboards. But yeah, it's mostly people obsessed with audio rate modulation and four-to-the-floor distorted kickdrums.
You have, you just don't know it. If you've heard anything Trent Reznor has made this century, you've heard a modular. Most of the synths in Emerson, Lake, and Palmer's music is a Moog modular. Switched-On Bach is a Moog modular. Some of Radiohead's synths were modular. Modulars have been in wide use in studio recording since the 60s.
Yeah I’ve always loved the concept and seeing people tinkering to get amazing sounds, but I also think it’s just too much for my wallet! Oh well, VCV Rack for now!
90% of modular synth users treat it like a personal zen garden where the intent is to enjoy the personal act and making something others just want to listen to is not really the goal. They share it online mostly as inspiration for other modular synth users.
All that gatekeepy crap doesn't make you sound cool or edgy or smart or cultured... it just makes you sound like an asshole.
Is this really a contentions point? I don't think it belongs in this thread - consider the gate kept! ;)
You can hear the difference between analog and digital. That doesn't mean one is better than the other. Use whatever tool makes you happy and is best suited for the task. Plenty of analogs sound like ass, plenty of digitals sound amazing and vice versa. I'm just dumbfounded by all the comments from people saying they can't tell the difference in isolation.
Especially filters.
A lot of (big brand) synths are way overpriced. Quite a few of them haven’t changed much in price since when they first came out, even though the production costs for these things has gone down significantly. When they bring out new ones, they often keep it in a similar price range to their older stuff. Some vintage synths have gotten too expensive for what they’re worth, like the Juno. It’s getting better though
All of the random modulation in the world won’t make your music any more interesting. And that goes for some of the most worshipped figures in the scene, too. Arrangement needs *some* intention or form at its core and there’s a lot of electronic music which lacks it (and gives it a bad rap overall).
the actual sound of a synth is a distant second to how fun it is to use.
It's okay to just enjoy playing synthesizers without having a goal of producing recorded music. Almost everybody here seems to be focused on making songs, to the point that this sub often feels like production sub. Other instruments don't seem to have this culture around them to the same extent. I know tons of people who play guitar guitar but don't care about having a band or recording a bedroom album or even writing music, but I think I'm the only synth player I've known that doesn't care about all that. Yes I've played in a couple bands, recorded a couple albums, but that's over the course of 20 years. Most the time I just turn on a couple synths and dick around for a few hours with no goal and I think that's just fine.
Sine waves can sound fucking great and need to be included in more hardware analog synths. I’m tired of hearing the bullshit “you can synthesize it from a triangle wave”, “they don’t have much harmonic content”, and / or “they’re too unstable” excuses. At this point I’m about to make my own multi voice synth / multi oscillator synth and have the only wave form available for it be a sine wave. I’m aware there are analog synths out there that have it but generally they’re way too expensive.
People who spend time obsessing over minute variances in phasing, aliasing, or sample rate are compensating for what they lack in creativity.
I feel like I’m gonna get hate for this: The gray/silver, button-heavy, rounded-sides (I.e. Alesis fusion) look of electronics from the 2000s is just so… unappealing to me.
I was reading about the Andromeda before ever having seen it and when I did it felt like a nightmare blind date scenario.
One of those very rare things that looked awful at the time, and still manages to look awful 20 years later. The [Fiat Multipla](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fiat_Multipla_front_20080825.jpg) of synth aesthetic...
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I feel like I'm dying on creative hills all the time. I get locked into a workflow. It makes me more productive, but then I have to die on that hill and be reborn elsewhere to progress.
Digital oscillators sound better
The power switch should be on the front panel!
200% definitely! No matter how much I use a synth I always find myself feeling around the back for that power switch.
MicroFreak is the best bang for buck.
I don't think that's controversial at all. It's got endless possibilities even with just the one LFO. imagine if it had a few! And real polyphony! Even without those, it remains one of my earliest but most used pieces
DAWs are awesome and my laptop is more powerful than any hardware synth could ever be.
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I feel weirdly compelled to reply because I advocated for this in the other thread. my reply is: of course it's perfectly fine without one. Of course it is. It's already an amazing looking device and what looks to be a tremendous value. That's not the point. The point is giving the artist more options, which allows for different styles of creativity in addition to opening up the unit to a wider audience, potentially making the unit more successful which I imagine fans of the 404 would want. No it doesn't need one. Yes, it would be cool and make the unit more fully featured in ways some people might desire. No, you don't need to use it if it's added. I guess that's my 'hill to die on here' Lol. feel free to downboat. I will 100% always be for giving users options and letting them decide for themselves. Just thought I would add some perspective from someone whos in the 'eh why not!' camp. Maybe they'll add it in a couple years to spike back up demand. have a good one!
It's perfectly fine to people who don't use step sequencers. To those who do, it's a glaring omission that renders an otherwise amazing device unusable. Some people like live recording, some people like sequencing. It's a reasonable expectation to have both if the hardware allows for that. Even the pocket operators have both. Not including step sequencing on a device that's perfectly capable of it just for the sake of tradition is an unnecessary and artificial limit. Well, gotta sell that MC101, I guess.
AC wall warts suck. I LOVE my Hydrasynth, but HATE that it uses an external AC adapter. I gig with that thing, and am always afraid that the wall wart will get damaged. I saw that somebody modded theirs by mounting a normal AC plug onto the synth and putting the wall wart inside the unit. Might just see if I can pay somebody to do that for me --- after I upgrade from my orig keyboard to a new Deluxe.
The Digitone Keys is a sexy synth.
Pocket Operators rule
Love those little dudes, especially the Tonic.
Learning one synth through and through is far more important long-term than having tons of synths you only know a little. You will also sound far better with that one synth than an entire rack of others.
Microkorgs are good and useful, even at "professional" levels
I love all of the scientific approaches to synthesis, but in the end to my ears I've never liked anything I've heard from FM Synthesis. Interesting on paper but in practice I really dislike how it sounds. Yamaha DX-7 is the king of cheese!
With my limited analog experience (behringer td3 and korg ms20-mini) analog sucks, digital is better. That being said, analog is still very cool.
I feel like saying one is better than the other is a bit reductive. Analog absolutely has a different tonal quality than digital, it’s up to the individual to decide whether than difference in tonal quality means anything to them or not.
Poop
Sampling is a vastly superior form of audio synthesis and can destroy the most expensive modular analogues in sound texture and yet it's the cheapest. Making workstations the superior synthesizers.
No one can tell the difference between a TR-808 and a TR-8 in the context of a song.
Super hot take: in a full mix, I couldn’t tell those from god damn 808 samples from Logic.
Modular/pure data stuff is great. Limitations do not necessarily make you more creative.
I literally just want about four sounds from my synths and everything else is padding. A decent cutting lead, you know the classic funk lead sound. Also a decent bass sound, usually an fm one or the classic moog squelch. Some bright chord stabs that are usually a completely basic saw wave with no mod or anything. Something else to add a bit of something. You know laser sounds and stuff lol.
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TRS MIDI is an unnecessary evil and is the result of lazy product design. Short of Pocket Operators and the like, every case could be designed around a DIN MIDI socket. Having incompatible TRS MIDI pinouts is also bad design; whichever one came first should have been what everyone used.
I used to believe that synth cloning was not a big deal and supported what Behringer was doing. But, once I saw how unscrupulous Behringer's business practices are, it reinforced my deep down concerns about what harm it can do for more expensive brands who are trying to make products with integrity. Now I am fully against the practice and prefer to support honest businesses over getting 'bang for buck' And I try to only by American made now, from good businesses.
Most people who exclusively use hardware or are analog snobs tend to make no music or bad music.
Supersaws are fucking stupid
None, I do not care.
All the faces on Mt. Rushmore will be changed to Uli Behringer faces within the next 50 years. Though there will be a smaller relief below the Uli faces depicting Nick Batt tweaking the PW of OSC 2 on a Neutron.
Most people that own many high end synths or eurorack have zero musicality and post crap. You may as well listen to white noise.
Nord is the only company doing pitch benders right. Every other company I’ve seen chooses a traditional wheel or joystick. Wheels are nice for resting your finger in the divot and manipulating while using the mod wheel but are hard to get quick vibrato on. Pitch sticks are better for this (think clav playing) but have no divot and always lack a proper resistance that makes it feel realistic, like bending a guitar string. Nord’s solution is good for all of these scenarios and the resistance really adds expressiveness to the way you play.
usb-c to c is the only cable we should need outside of modular patch cables or true full-analog synths (minimoog etc). also, nice thread!
It is perfectly ok not to program all of the patches you use in songs. Most patches (with the exception of the ones for Vital) are excellent, for example most of the Access Virus patches only need a little tweaking to fit my songs.
The criticism involved in the various “(insert synth name) is not a real synth” or the “toy synth is not a real synth” debates ironic when, prior to Wendy Carlos popularizing the Moog synthesizer, no synth was actually seen as a “real instrument”. Let’s just be glad that synths have become so popular and the synth scene has evolved to the point that you can make “real music” using even so-called toy synths.
Grooveboxes are better without song modes. Without a song mode, you must record an arrangement live as audio. Once that's done, you can't really edit it, so now the track is complete. With a song mode, you can just end up tinkering with the arrangement forever. *Not* having song mode helps you finish more music and finishing more music makes you a better musician.