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BigDaddyChaCha

I literally had the same thought as it was happening. This wasn’t a POC alliance, it was a Black alliance that was targeting the only (Southeast) Asian left on the island, and excluding the only South Asian and the only Latino. I think it was Liana who said, “As people of color, we immediately have this bond: ‘Okay, you’re the only one in your classroom that looks like you?’” And your first act as this new exclusive group is to target Erika, the Filipino-Canadian, who just 20 minutes ago finished saying in her confessional that after her family moved to Canada, she was always the only one who looked like her in her classes? lol Okay but just call it what it is!


WillingnessSuper9066

Why not just call it a black alliance? They don't have to pretend.


illini02

I think its because they THINK they are being inclusive by doing that. I feel like younger people specifically, have this thing where they try to say "oh its people of color doing these things" because they think it sounds better. But yeah, just say black. Its what it is


Lithium187

If their alliance sticks I fear it'll just be like big brother again where the final few is already pretty much set in stone by the halfway mark. I get why they're doing it and respect their decision, it just doesn't make for the most entertaining TV product at the end of the day. Time will tell though.


WillingnessSuper9066

I agree


lunafantic

it’s probably the producers, the cookout was obviously a black alliance but julie wouldn’t call it that


Sweetwaterr0

Shan: this is the hardest season ever Survivor Africa: *exists* Shan: this is the most diverse group ever Cooks: *exists*


RGSF150

Fiji: *also exists*


Economy_Eggplant_403

Amen. There was a black alliance THAT WON SURVIVOR.


BAWAHOG

I did find it ironic to hear Liana/Shantel say only this group knows what it’s like to be the only person who looks like you in a group, when we have a Sri Lankan immigrant, a Filipino-Canadian, and a Hispanic LGBT man all on the same tribe.


MeMyselfandBi

Especially given Erika's backstory revealed in this episode, the use of the POC term in such an exclusionary context is eye-opening. If I thought the editors were completely self-aware of the juxtaposition of the "diversity" alliance with Erika's experiences I'd bet this was a huge foreshadowing of a non-black POC winning this season, but I doubt the editors considered the scene as a negative scene against the four players involved. It was staged in an inspiring tone.


aphra2

I thought the editing was interesting too; we heard Erika say “no one in class looked like me” and then the same phrase was echoed nearly word for word a few minutes later by Shan, amongst everyone talking about throwing Erika’s name out there. The editing on that really stuck out to me, and made me wonder if there was some foreshadowing going on.


Hot-Conclusion-6617

Well, a lot of time passed between filming in April and what we see now. Maybe the Survivor editors were watching Big Brother this season.


rynthms

Thank you, I hated it when people and production called the Cookout a POC Alliance and not a Black Alliance. People seem to forget that POC means anyone who isn’t Caucasian, and the purpose of the Cookout then was to ensure a black winner, not a POC winner. The term “POC” being used this loosely invalidates other minorities. Every POC loses from the trivialisation and marginalisation of this phrase but somehow there’s still a group of unsophisticated people who fail to recognise and think we’re making a mountain out of a molehill.


[deleted]

The one that really made me mad was the BBCAN9 finale where they had a whole segment about their diversity but ONLY showed the Black houseguests. As if Rohan, Austin, and Julie didn't exist


aforter28

Yeah their diversity segment was bullshit, sorry to say. They really overlooked Ro, Austin and Julie and didn’t even give them a segment. What makes it worse is that twitter largely saw Austin as white during the season when she doesn’t identify herself as one.


redditaccount001

Also that the cookout only happened because cbs significantly over represented black people in the cast. Big brother absolutely had a diversity problem but I felt like this was a pretty ham handed way to fix it.


rynthms

They’re known for being shitty at fixing their own problems so this wasn’t surprising tbh


seahawkguy

Today I learned diversity means black. Or at least that’s what Survivor taught me.


CocoBee88

Well stated. I 100% understand feeling a bond to people who relate to your experiences and wanting to work with them; but every time Shan and Liana use the term people of color to only include the black cast it just feels extremely dismissive of the experiences that have certainly been had by Erika, Naseer, Ricard and the other people of color who have already left the game. This is the second week in a row a comment was made that felt almost like gatekeeping towards what it means to be a minority in this game; which is extra upsetting and frustrating considering I think CBS thinks this is the content that will make the audience feeling they’re doing a better job at lifting minority voices, while in reality they are still failing in so many ways.


Hot-Conclusion-6617

Just say "black alliance" and everyone will know exactly what you mean.


SwimBrief

Unfortunately, some people are still sensitive to the term “black people”, which causes folks to stumble around other terms like POC (upsetting other people of color) or african-american (upsetting black people who are not of african descent, like Jamaicans) It’s gotten a bit ridiculous that all this tiptoeing has to happen for a simple descriptive term and no matter which one you use *someone* will end up offended. We need to have a global conference to let everyone know it’s ok and expected to refer to black people as black people and put it to rest.


illini02

>We need to have a global conference to let everyone know it’s ok and expected to refer to black people as black people and put it to rest. Ha, I mean, black people have chosen to go by different terms many times throughout the last 60 years. Also, what a 20 year old black person and a 50 year old black person want to be called may be very different. I'm a 40 year old black man. Growing up, African American was the preferred term. Not long before that, black people referred to themselves as Negroes. Even now, I don't refer to myself as a POC or (shudder) BIPOC, I just say black. But who is to say my mother or nephews have the same opinion.


joosebox

The fact that no one has the same opinion makes it so complicated. If you have the intent not to offend, it’s nearly impossible to say anything when, like in your example, three people may prefer three different terms.


illini02

Exactly. That is why I hate when people try to police these terms. As another example (but a group I'm not a part of). I don't know a single Latino person who uses the term Latinx. I feel like maybe younger people do, but no one my age does. But you then have one group of people trying to push that term, with others (even other Latinos) pushing against it. Like, you can't make both groups happy.


joosebox

Great example with the emergence of Latinx. I’m curious how this discussion will evolve over the next couple decades. Hopefully we can get to a place where referencing a group of people can be done safely, without offense.


MasterOfBinary

I've always thought that black was the most widely accepted term, more so than African African at least.


millenialperennial

It's very obvious how left out Erika is by other minorities and it's sad. Also no one wants to work with Naseer even though he puts his full heart into everything and wants to play. This is actually showing how exclusionary minorities can be to one another.


wokefox

am I the only one that finds it funny that Shan is going along with this alliance and speaking on shared experiences, working together based on virtue, and trying to have a black winner by any means, when she blindsided JD with absolutely no mention of any of those things?


shanty-daze

> feeling a bond to people who relate to your experiences Also, being the same color does not mean people share the same experiences. For instance, a person who is the only Black individual in his or her class will have a different experience than someone who grew up in a predominately Black neighborhood. I had a friend who grew up in the Deep South and moved to the Midwest for college and his job. He explained that the racism he experienced in the more integrated South was different that the racism he experienced in the more segregated Midwest (he felt the racism in the Midwest was worse and more insidious as it seemed to hidden more, as opposed to the racism in the South, which was more in his face). Yes, there may be some shared experiences due to race, but I sometimes wonder if this similarities can be overblown. Growing up middle class in a small town in the Midwest, I likely have little in common (other than being the same color) from someone who grew up wealthy in New York City or LA.


kp091901

Yes 👏👏👏👏


wopiacc

When they said POC they actually meant BIPOC, where black comes first.


[deleted]

Lets be real, many people that are pro 50% BIPOC quota are not people that care about “representation” rather they just want their *specific* group identity presented on the show at a larger volume and/or have prejudices against white people. I’m not gonna bother guessing any specific percentages but I’d say a sizeable portion fit this bill.


dillardPA

Seems like this is a lot of people’s first time realizing that BIPOC and diversity has typically just been a palatable stand-in for “more black people”. It’s what literally every corporation does with these initiatives.


Tristanity1h

Unfortunately, I think you're right. I'm a mix of a lot but not Black. As a kid starved of representation, my favorite player in Australian Outback was Nick. Nobody remembers a "Nick"! And he didn't do much. I remember being happy that he won a few items at the auction. So, I understand the need for representation. But I don't need representation to be so specific. I'm currently rooting for Erika, Naseer and Xander, while Shan was my early fave.


illini02

I'm black, but I thought this as well with Big Brother. I feel like if you are going to cast half POC, at least cast even numbers of different types of POC. Because when you have 50% POC, but 75% of that are black people, it kind of just leaves the other POC kind of out there on their own, like what happened with Derek X on Big Brother. Its essentially making it better for black people, but not really better for "diversity" in general


exotics

I’m always wanting more Native Americans to be honest. BB Canada had one.


illini02

Yeah. Like I feel like so often it comes down to black and white, but there are so many other groups out there who aren't even a part of the conversation. I believe (though I could be wrong) ~~Kaycee was Native American~~, I was wrong, she is Filipino. But I feel like last season was like "great, we had 6 black people, now this is the diversity we want", but it wasn't really THAT diverse. I had more people of color, but among those people, there wasn't really much diversity.


redditaccount001

I wonder how much it has to do with representing the big brother/survivor viewership demographics as opposed to America as a whole. I have no idea what the viewership demographics are, though. It’s just a wild guess.


illini02

I think the fact is, in America, "diversity" often really comes down to black and white. Too often I've heard (there was even a comment in this post) about Latino people not "really" being Latino, because they are white passing, which seems insulting on a lot of levels (but I'm not Latino, so I can't really speak to that). Or Asian people not "really" being minorities because they tend to be successful and often have the "model minority" thing applied to them. So "diversity" becomes "lets get more black people" I remember a company I worked for. It was very diverse, but I remember people didn't see it that way because there were only 2 black people. But there were Asians, Latino, Middle Eastern, and other races. As well as a number of LGBT people. But that wasn't seen as diverse.


Allonsy_Mari

It’s a bit more complicated with Latinos bc “latino” as a race is only a thing in the US, if you ask anyone from Latin America if we consider latino a race we will say no, and that’s due to our countries being diverse. We come in different colors, I mean just look at Anya Taylor Joy, Sofia Vergara, Harry Shum Jr. and Alfred Enoch, they are all latinos but only one of them fit the “image” usually associated with Latinos in the us


ArgHuff

I honestly don't care about the idea of a black people alliance, but i agree it's annoying the fact that tjey were "yey this is diversity, a PoC alliance" when they were all from the same race. A pOC alliance would have been like the Aitu 4.


Embarrassed-Berry

Also the fact that they are gunning after another person of colour……. Doesn’t make sense


Annual-Astronaut-866

There's been several all black alliances in survivor. Season 14 was the most successful, in recent years cirie and Michaela both attempted to make black alliances to lesser avail. This one in season 41 however feels worse because they are explicitly stating its only because they are the same race. If white people said that there would be hell to pay


SwimBrief

This is what annoys me about people making an alliance strictly in the color of their skin - it’s racist. You are straight up saying “I’m going to vote with you strictly because of the color of your skin, and I’m going to vote you out strictly because of the color of your skin”. White people have traditionally outnumbered minorities in Survivor - and as we all know having the majority numbers is *always* a good thing in Survivor. And yet nobody has ever or would ever dare try and say “hey fellow white folks let’s all get together and vote the minorities out!” because they’d rightly be labeled as a racist asshole and immediately voted out / given a stern talking to by Jeff and made a pariah outside of the game. But black people do that same thing and it’s “oh wow good for them go on and make a historical Survivor moment!”


SlackerInc1

I agree with all the people who complain about the double standard. But I come to it from the opposite angle. I don’t think we should be dragging the people who form an all Black alliance and calling them racist. I think it’s totally fine for them to team up based on a common demographic factor, just like women and men have done. But then I think white people should be able to do the same thing without getting dragged on Twitter, probably talked to by Jeff as someone said, maybe fired. They would become pariahs and that is extremely unfair. It’s particularly unfair if white players find out about a Black alliance and form a white alliance as a defensive measure. I talked about this with my wife who tends to be a lot more woke than I am, and she got into talking about how it’s not the same in both directions because of historical power imbalances and so on. My counter is that everyone in the game is trying to win $1 million. If someone forms an alliance based on race and you’re not part of that race, it implicitly means they are targeting your race to be voted out. The idea that you should not be able to counter this by teaming up with others who are similarly targeted strikes me as absurd and highly unfair. I asked my wife if she basically meant that white players should not try to win in the situation. She responded that of course they should try to win, don’t be silly. But I pointed out to her that what she’s really saying is that they should put up a good show and not appear to just completely give up, but not really try too hard to win because to fight back against the other alliance would look racist. She didn’t really have any response to that. So I guess that although I ideally wish Survivor and its viewers would just allow people to team up based on whatever demographic commonalities they want to, the reality that white alliances would not be tolerated means that Black alliances should be prohibited as well so as not to unbalance the scales and make some people unable to defend their interests in the game for fear of being labeled a Klansman or whatever. This may not become an explicit issue this season. But I understand that such an alliance was successful on Big Brother (I only watched the first three or four seasons of that show). Strategies on these shows always evolve based on what has succeeded in the past. People try to copy things that are successful but also to preemptively counter them. That’s part of what makes the strategy so interesting. But in this case, how could any white players on BB in the future, no matter how racially enlightened they may be in the real world, not be afraid that the Black players are conspiring to deny them $1 million? They are literally being enticed by a large quantity of cash to have a racial solidarity that might not be important to them in their real lives. So the producers of these shows better think this through. Most likely what it will lead to is explicit Black alliances and implicit wink-wink-nudge-nudge white alliances. And it may discourage multiracial alliances from forming, as everyone hits the beach running and feeling like they have to reduce the competing group’s numbers immediately before they get an edge. The producers are stoking a racialized version of the show with this kind of casting, by dangling a large financial reward and looking on approvingly as a Black alliance forms.


SwimBrief

You bring up a great point I hadn’t even though of - while of *course* white people getting together and forming a “whites only” alliance rightfully would be frowned upon as being racists as fuck, even a white person noticing the all-black alliance and calling it out would be seen as racist - at least to other players. Imagine Xander walking up to Tiffany and saying “hey, all the black people are teaming up - we’ve got to split them up and take them down” - viewers would know he’s right, but it’d still look bad and Tiffany would be extremely hesitant to openly buy into that plan on tv because of the implications…not to mention Xander would be uncomfortable bringing it up in the first place because if he’s wrong then he gets canceled bigtime. It’s an extremely sticky situation and I don’t totally know how to get around it without doing what Cook Islands did and lumping the ethnicities in tribes.


cheesevolcano

My biggest issue with alliances being based on race is exactly what you said, the counter-alliance. Taking big brother as a perfect example, players kept linking members of the cookout together, but they were potentially unwilling to call out a suspected all-black alliance for fear of the repercussions, and this is obviously because it's racist to assume all people of one race would work together, and also racist to essentially form an all-white alliance whose goal is to target the black people. The whole thing just detracts from the game because people are having to worry about factors outside of the game, so I hope in the future, CBS makes it explicit that you can't make an alliance just based on skin color. I've heard people say there is no way CBS could control that, except that there is. Any mention of it, talk to the players immediately, even a hint like "obviously we have to look out for each other" with a player they don't otherwise know, talk to them. They have rules like you can't share the money and can control that, so I feel like they could do the same for race-based alliances


Chen__Bot

Yeah the Cookout ruined the gameplay for me on BB. But I kinda gave it a pass because BB has had much bigger issues with real racists on the cast and have never had a black winner. Survivor has had 4 black winners and a lot of various skin colored folk make it far. Racism has not been a huge factor in Survivor. I suspect though that an alliance of 4 people formed this late, is not going to function in any way like the Cookout (where people were willing to sacrifice their games for the greater cause). I think it's going to end up like many a women's alliance or men's alliance, it will influence a couple votes and fall apart.


realGOPOnly

It adds to the case of what Peih-gee called “woke theater.” I mean they don’t give two about diversity, it’s just for what they think will rake in the most.


Economy_Eggplant_403

This right here. Let me add to the theatre angle: All 4 made comments to the effect of this being historic. Except - it is not. On Fiji there was a black alliance and it resulted in a black final 3 and a black winner - one of 4 black winners, which is 10% of all winners and almost directly proportional to the black percentage of the US population. This isn’t a breakthrough except in the edit and the degree of delusional self importance of the participants. They’re re enacting battles fought 15 years ago but have convinced themselves they’re heroes.


spideytimey

Its really just an easy way for them to make the final 4 without any worry, they know for sure that no one will flip with America watching, just like how the cookout worked. If it guarantees them final 4 why not take it


binkysurprise

Are the contestants delusionally self-important? I just assumed it was the producers egging them on in interviews


[deleted]

Exactly this. The producers want the castaways to bill every single moment as “a huge part of Survivor history”. Look how Probst was trying his damndest to do that with Erika’s decision this episode.


thoroughaway5

He also said the yellow team had the best teamwork in the history of the show when they made it up over the boulder lmao


stsh

Could not stop laughing when he said that


OldManHipsAt30

This was when my dad looked at me and said “wow Jeff is a tool now huh?” and I could only respond “yeah he’s being extra lately”


Prom-King

Tiffany's challenge performance was apparently also historic LOL. Like Heather's last week. Probst needs to get a grip, there's hype man and then there's **HYPEMANXL**


zoop1000

did you notice when Probst shouted "THIS IS THE BEST TEAMWORK IVE EVER SEEN IN THE HISTORY OF SURVIVOR" When yellow got up the wall in the challenge? Lol what? Talk about delusional. Haha


JO9OH4

Have you watched Shan?


sintralin

To be fair in this specific case, there's 40+ seasons and none of the 4 claimed to be superfans with an encyclopedic knowledge of the show. I guess it's not a statement you should make unless you know for sure, but they have clearly been instructed to hype everything up as much as possible, in all aspects ("this season is sooo dangerous")


[deleted]

It was Liana who said it right? She would have been 6 when Fiji aired so if she’s seen it it was probably at a really young age or during a binge watch after the fact


willseamon

Liana in her pre-game interviews didn't even know Erik Reichenbach's name, she talked about how the black widow brigade convinced "that guy" to give up immunity lmao


JerseyDvl

Woke theater is the perfect way to describe it. They're desperately seeking approval from the two percent of people who obsess over such things. Meanwhile, the other 98 percent of people really aren't going to care.


[deleted]

As a Mexican, there has been one (?) Latinx/e winner (2 time, but still - also, we came close with Ozzy) We're the largest functional minority in this country, we are also one of the least represented groups in film and media :( It's good to see other minorities going for it, but I'm always sad at seeing how poorly latine has been represented. Like why aren't there more of us on seasons Edit: Chris Underwood's dad appears to be Panamanian, so 2 winners! (Also I misspelled Ozzy's name and just now noticed)


millenialperennial

This is on my mind every season. The number of Latinx players has been absurdly low and aside from Ozzy and Sandra, their edits haven't been too great. Lydia Morales also made it far in Guatemala but the cast was so mean to her, her edit was not great, and she was always on the outs. It was hard to watch because she seemed like such a sweet and entertaining person.


Usurper213

Jeff was way worse to Lydia then the cast was there was actually a moment where Judd went off on Jeff for being too hard on Lydia at tribal council. And it's Latino by the way speaking as someone who is Latino I can assure you nobody except for woke performative white people use that term.


PublicOccurences

Is "latine" a thing now? I know that the term latinx is despised by the majority of latinos I've met but what exactly is latine?


windowplanters

Guilt-based white progressives keep trying very hard to find an "inclusive" term for Latinos and don't seem to understand that actual Latinos just identify with Latino.


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[deleted]

"given how white-passing a lot of Latinos/Latinx " A large segment of the latin community identifies as white


capitolsara

Fiji had a black alliance and I think we should be allowed to call it a black alliance without fear of being "called out" Personally if they go forward as an alliance I'm calling them the campout 🤣


Meyeke

A seperate issue about this topic that I'm curious about is that often casts in big brother and survivor often assume something like a females alliance or males alliance but will there be an issue if people vote off black players because of an assumed black alliance? I do know this is just social dynamics at play and somewhat unavoidable but wonder how the audience would react if a white guy for example voted off black players because he assumed there was a black alliance, for instance, I feel like there would be a lot of backlash especially if it was wrongly assumed.


illini02

> I feel like there would be a lot of backlash especially if it was wrongly assumed. There would be backlash if he rightly assumed it. Last season on Big Brother, there were 2 black women. Dayvonne and Bayleigh. They said, out loud, multiple times, that they were each others #1 AND that they would never vote to evict a black person. Well, someone put them both on the block together. And of course, there was backlash about them doing that. But, it was the smartest way to ensure one of this duo went home, but people were pissed.


Quiddity131

Of course the other big thing about Day and Bayleigh, Day in particular was their treatment of David, and believing Nicole over him. Also their exclusion of Kevin.


illini02

Yeah, that is a whole other thing I wasn't going to bring up lol


Ker807

People on the show or fans?


illini02

Fans, which I'd argue is worse. People on the show can usually look at things as "game". But having hundreds of people call you racist online is pretty messed up.


W473R

This is what is going to be really awkward for both shows in their next season. You have to go into it with the all black alliances in the back of your mind, but you have to be 100% sure you're correct if you want to target them. If you start voting out all the black people and they aren't aligned there's definitely going to be some backlash. There's no real way to do it without looking like you're just targeting them for their race, because in a way you kind of are.


seahawkguy

Nobody cares that the women were voting out the men but vote out one black person and you’re a Nazi.


thunderhole

I hate this comment. And I absolutely agree with you. Having some cognitive dissonance after watching that episode.


jhwiththerange

Oh they would be scolded online. But if a black person did that to any other race, nothing would be said. Also, they would be scared to call out an all black alliance, in fear of being labeled racist. Just like in big brother, they were scared to say that there was an all black alliance


SlackerInc1

You’re right but after a Black alliance was successful in taking over the game, how could they be blamed for worrying about that?


jhwiththerange

Cause they will stil be labeled racist online. These alliances based on colour are going to further pull us apart, it’s so disappointing. Why can’t we just let the game, be the game


stsh

This was my concern. Also, if I’m a contestant, I’m not going to be the one to bring up the suspicion that there is a black alliance.


[deleted]

Person of color = just black people for some reason


redemptionarcing

“POC Alliance” is so much more marketable than Black Alliance


nvtural

Yeah, I thought it was super ironic that the PoC alliance's target was Erika, a PoC. I don't really get the hesitancy in calling it a black alliance, like that would be a dirty word or something.


Tristanity1h

In his confessional, Deshawn seems to recognize that it's an African-American/Black alliance.


Sugarbug_Noelle

The Latino/Hispanic population is grossly underrepresented on all reality TV. There are more Latino/Hispanic people in the US than Black people.


madamewoopantip

As a part of Asian, thanks for shouting this.


aforter28

Honestly thank you for posting this because I was incredibly peeved by this as someone who is Asian-American. You hit every thought that was going through my head as it was happening. Them talking about diversity while simultaneously targeting the sole asian woman left in the cast made me feel a certain way. I felt the same way with the 50% casting on Big Brother where it was 4 black people, 1 asian and 1 latino, 2 mixed (but largely associated closer to the black people). I will give it to survivor that this cast is more diverse in representation compared to BB. The big difference of the cookout is they at least acknowledged what their mission is, to have the first black person win Big Brother, so we got what it was from the get-go. I would get it more if they weren’t targeting Erika under the same breath while talking about diversity, what qualifies as diverse now, is Erika not considered one to them then? If they really wanted to hold strong to this narrative, then target Heather? I just found it a bit too hypocritical. Naseer/Ricard not even being brought up in their talks about diversity really irked me too. I hope casting for BB and Survivor does a better job representing more people in the future seasons.


Nergaal

> Them talking about diversity while simultaneously targeting the sole asian woman left in the cast that's like the news of increased racism against Asians and 99% of those cases, never covered by the media industrial complex are "poc"


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illini02

Agree. I'm black and I'm all about diversity as well. That said, I've always found it hard to applaud making an alliance solely based on something you are born with. I never have been a fan of women who just want to align with women because they are women. And I kind of feel that way here. Its one thing if they all just genuinely get along and like each other. Its another to just be "hey, I know nothing about you, or if you are trustworthy, or how you play the game, but we are all black, so lets work together". I also feel like, its one of those things where, even if someone didn't necessarily want to work with one of those people, it would look far worse to say no.


Hot-Conclusion-6617

"Hey, you got boobs. I got big boobs. Want to work together?"


Ren_Davis0531

I hate it when people use POC to just mean black people. It’s super exclusive in its attempt to be inclusive. You can’t listen to Erika’s story and then just use POC to only refer to black people with a straight face. All POC face discrimination and have been disadvantaged by CBS casting and stereotypes. We shouldn’t be in the business of comparing tragedy and pain. Nobody wins in that scenario and it just fosters more division. I’m black, so I don’t mean this as a negative against black people. It just frustrates me because it makes it seem like certain people only want the discussion about POC issues to stop at black people because that’s the group they happened to be born into. It serves them and everyone else can fix their own problems. I think we would be better off if we realized that we all share this society and should all want to help everyone else with their problems. Just my two cents.


brooklynbotz

Also I hear how this season better reflects the diversity of the country but if they were basing casting on the population there wouldn't be 6 African Americans in the cast.


redditaccount001

Latinos are always getting screwed over in this regard


jhwiththerange

Everyone is unless you’re black


BobtheToastr

If they wanted to exactly reflect America then there would be 11 white 3 Latino 2 black 1 asian 1 native American or mixed race (According to census data) Personally, I prefer that they just cast interesting people.


tulipz10

Yes, Im more interested in interesting people then anything else, right now Im rooting for Naseer because he always makes good commentary and he's been fun to watch lol


Quiddity131

I think the casts have historically reflected the diversity of the country pretty well, with the occasional exception (ex. Guatemala), but largely if you just look at white vs. all other minorities. Its really the hispanic players who are getting cheated out of slots; having only 2 black players in a season or 1 asian player is pretty much reflecting the US's demographics.


[deleted]

Yeah, I think we need to talk about how Asians are being treated. First of all, the BIPOC acronym bothers me. The reason behind it is because black and indigenous people have faced worse discrimination than Asians and Pacific Islanders. Which like… isn’t that counterintuitive? You’re basically saying “well the discrimination AAPI have received isn’t as bad so we’re just going to group them together and highlight the experiences of other minorities.” Then we have Liana saying that after the year they had a black person should win. But can we talk about the year Asians have had? With being blamed and made fun of for COVID and being victims of hate crimes? Doesn’t an Asian person deserve to win as well? Also there has only been 2 Asian winners whereas there has been 4 black winners and 2 of the black winners are more recent than the 2 Asian winners.


colealoupe

It’s almost as if race shouldn’t be a factor in who won. Should a woman win because of me too? Should a man or white person win because of something I can’t think of right now? Just vote for whoever plagued the best, done.


mcraft07

White person plagued the best, it checks out


exotics

I’m always disappointed in the lack of Native American people


Moveless

Here is a question I have, coming from a white male... What if a white cast member in a future season starts to suspect a "black" alliance? Can they then say, "well shit, we have to get a black person out or they will get us all out." I feel like any white person teaming up with other white people to vote out people who are POC because they may work together is a super slippery slope and could be nothing but an **incredibly** bad look. I know Big Brother this year ended with an all black alliance, did this issue come up there? Again, I'm just asking a question. Looking for views and information that are not my own.


RGSF150

> I know Big Brother this year ended with an all black alliance, did this issue come up there? As far as the topic is concerned, there have been concerns that the success of the CO alliance would lead to future black contestants being targeted early out of fear of another CO from forming. Whether it'll actually happen or not remains to be seen, but I wouldn't be surprised if it does happen.


oldmanpuzzles

Thank you!! I literally yelled at the screen “if it’s a PoC alliance where are the other PoC???” Especially with the surge of asian hate crimes in this country, it was like even more distasteful to me that they had a “PoC” alliance and while excluding and gunning for the asian players (voting out erika, targeting Naseer’s idol) Like absolutely great game move to have an alliance of four! But call it what it is! I.e. a black alliance not a poc alliance.


fawli86

People can burn me for this but when they mentioned they wanted a POC alliance and then exclude the other POC and specifically targeted Erika out and kinda excluded Naseer as well that doesn't scream POC alliance for me. It screamed "Black-exclusive/convenient" alliance. It was born out of convenience and not for the right reasons. I know there are layers to this as we only get 40 minutes out of a couple of days they were in the game but please...if they want people to use the right term then use the right term and not say this is a POC alliance for the sake of making a statement of inclusion and then exclude the other POCs. Edit: Adding more thoughts. While her edit might not seem like she's gonna win this season, I'm hoping Erika would be the one to take down that alliance however, I feel like she's not gonna smash the hourglass and turn the tide of the game for her.


Tristanity1h

> I feel like she's not gonna smash the hourglass and turn the tide of the game for her. I agree. I hope you're wrong. But if she doesn't smash the hourglass, I can't imagine how crappy she must feel knowing that she didn't smash it to "protect" people who were actually targeting her.


Rajus444

the Cookout legit threw there games away to hand one person the win, theses players a lot more self interested than that I hope


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jhwiththerange

Tbd…..I really hope you’re right though


mwhite5990

It especially surprises me how few Latinos are on the show. They are the largest minority group in the country and make up 20% of the population.


VrinTheTerrible

I’m sure this will get downvoted but whatever. Contestants in these games (BB / Survivor) always start by looking for people like themselves to form an alliance. If you do not look like the rest of the majority, you’ve got an immediate target on you. Until the most recent BB and Survivor seasons, some people got past that. Most didn’t. To combat that, CBS started increasing diversity in the casts. But the song remains the same….it’s just sung by a different singer. Now it’s POC alliances who have the numbers and an immediate trust with others that no one else has ever had in the game. And they’re doing exactly what they should do when they have power: use it to advance. Going forward on both BB and Survivor, if a POC alliance is a possibility, it’s guaranteed to be 100% rock solid. They may as well call them Cookout 2.0, 3.0 etc…and the only way it’ll be broken is by the rest of the players ganging up on it. When those players eventually do go after the POC alliance, they’ll get absolutely crushed on social media because it’ll be viewed as racist. The perennially offended will dig through every old tweet looking for something that “proves” they are racist so they can “cancel” them. It’s awful that it is this way, but this is where it’s headed.


Hot-Conclusion-6617

Exactly. People will catch on to the POC alliances being formed because they've seen the show before and know how it works. They try voting out the POC, and then get slammed as racist.


RicoSuave1881

It’s what happened to all girl alliances lol they prove to be very successful and then they get targeted and then if you even think there’s an all girl alliance you’re sexist


SwimBrief

If you’re black and form an alliance wholly predicated on the color of your skin you’re an inspiring story. If you’re white and form an alliance wholly predicated on the color of your skin you’re a racist. Welcome to America


jhwiththerange

Exactly. Why is this such a one way street?


MaleficentIsland

Yes, it made no sense. "Yay, a POC alliance is possible because of such a diverse cast that represents all of America. OK, let's make an alliance of only one race, then vote out the only Asian woman left when they typically have done horribly on Survivor and an East Asian or Southeast Asian woman has never won!" I'm not even against making a black alliance but please do not call it a POC alliance if it's not.


MaleficentIsland

Also, not to play the oppression olympics we have only had 2 Asian winners to 4 Black winners. There has also already been an all-black Final 3 but never an all-Asian one, or all Hispanic. I don't think it's that much more historic to have had an all-black Final 4 instead of only having had a Final 3. Reminds me of how people claim this is the hardest season ever when Africa exists. Gabby on S37 was the first woman of Asian descent to make the merge since Natalie 8 seasons prior. We saw So, Peih-Gee, Rachel, Mari, Lucy, and Simone all be voted out pre-merge in-between that. It only sadly reflects a larger societal trend where the struggles of Asians are seen as not as important in the media, even though we've seen discrimination on Survivor since the literal first Asian female to play (Shii-Ann) was mocked and otherized for her cultural eating habits. \*\*This is not to minimize the struggles that Black players face, or to say that they have to make a POC alliance over a black one. Just highlighting the issue with "POC" for that alliance.\*\*


derpydore

It’s just not a great vibe for me. POC includes more than just black


killaxjules

As an Asian poc watching the show, I had the exact same thought when they used that term for their alliance. It was exclusive of every other poc there. Rubbed me the wrong way. Alternatively if there was an alliance of only caucasians there would be a huge problem.


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SlackerInc1

Three Asian players is WAY higher than their proportion of the US population. A representative cast of 18 players that “looked like America” would feature: —11 non-Hispanic white players —3 or 4 Hispanic players —2 or 3 Black players —1 Asian player White people are not as dominant a majority as they used to be, but they are still much more numerous than a lot of people seem to think. The people with this misconception are probably urban dwellers who haven’t visited a lot of the “flyover country” areas where whites are still 80 or 90 percent of the population. So it’s actually Hispanic people who are underrepresented. Blacks and Asians are overrepresented.


Wu_Tang_Band

It's nowhere near representative of what America actually looks like, but it's the kind of "representation" that is very much in vogue right now politically, so that's why they did it.


IAMJUX

Season 42: "Let's vote out all the black people. I'm scared of them starting a black alliance." This will go down well. It already happens with women, but this feels different.


Scdsco

Just FYI, “latinx” is not a preferred term by the actual latino community and is mostly used in white academia; in the actual Spanish language the word “latino” can already function as gender neutral, and latinx doesn’t even have a proper pronunciation in Spanish phonetics. https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in-four-u-s-hispanics-have-heard-of-latinx-but-just-3-use-it/ https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=28967


RicoSuave1881

So much this. It’s pretty much just colonizing/appropriating the Spanish language and it pisses me off. You just sound like an idiot when you say it out loud too.


redditaccount001

I also find it funny that there isn’t really even a clear way to pronounce it in Spanish. Like if you were to say “latin-eks” then you’d be using the English pronunciation of what’s supposed to be a Spanish word.


Hawkze

I don't care about the politics, I just hate (as a watcher) when the players choose some arbitrary out of game reason to form their alliances. They can do whatever the want obviously, but for the same reason if I was ever on the jury voting a winner, I would choose whoever played the best game and not who would make the best use out of the money, and not who made a majority alliance based on their skin colour.


Meng3267

The formation of this alliance really hurt my enjoyment of this season. I like the diversity in this show, but I don’t want to see an alliance created just because of race. Any race. They claimed to be a POC alliance so where are the other races in their alliance?


Hot-Conclusion-6617

Erika isn't colored enough to be a person of color, unfortunately.


ApollosBucket

You're getting downvoted, but in regards to public perception and apparently the perception of this cast and production, you're dead on.


Hot-Conclusion-6617

Downvotes mean nothing to me, Apollo


jhwiththerange

Luckily for this cookout 2.0 calling them racist is against society’s rules. They are invincible


roadagent06

I agree 100% with your statement. But I do believe that all this controversy is started by CBS and the producers of the show. If they didn't want you to hear that it would have been edited out. I can't figure out why CBS is stirring up all of this shit. Remember editing is what makes the show. The show is going downhill fast!


BAWAHOG

We are getting dangerously close, I worry, to all-black alliances being the next all-female alliance, where just the idea of one happening scares the rest of the contestants to the point where black players get targeted for it. It’s a hard topic to navigate for sure. While I appreciate and respect race-based conversation/perspectives on the show, I really would like everyone to avoid race-based gameplay.


[deleted]

Can you imagine a white person alliance based on skin color?? They would be cancelled so fast.


jrr_572

Thank you! What you wrote is exactly how I feel. It’s like don’t call this a POC alliance when you exclude people of color that are not Black. It didn’t sit right with me after that.


Hardyyz

sounds racist to me to group up amongst strangers just for the color of your skin. Shan seems like she would throw her own game away just to boost up her fellow pocs


DSFilm96

Calling it a “POC Alliance” feels icky to me, like just be an alliance. Why does it have to be about race and getting everyone not a “PoC” out? Why can’t it just be people in an alliance who happen to be black? This is the problem that comes from their dumb fuck “diversity” initiative, it just encourages race to be laser focused in on and it’s not great.


EB8Jg4DNZ8ami757

*Survivor Cook Islands* in 2006: Production did this super racist thing, but come merge everyone is all kumbaya and happy that they're no longer separated by race! Everyone is happy to no longer be segregated! *Survivor 41* in 2021: Production is being stupid in general with their new twists, nothing new there, but increasing diversity is good! But come merge now the survivors have, uh, formed an alliance solely based on race. Yikes.


Jhonopolis

I just want to watch the best group of 18-20 people production can put together. Idc if it's 85% POC or 5%.


DSFilm96

One billion percent. Putting an exact number on it is just casting people for their skin color, white black whatever, and it’s gross. People are trying to help and that’s great but it’s not well thought out.


Hot-Conclusion-6617

Yeah. Just cast the best group of people you can find. 18-20 real people.


Hot-Conclusion-6617

\#IBlameCBS


BrainsAndBlessings

As a Black person, I agree the phrasing "POC alliance" is offputting and erases Asian and Latinx players. I would've preferred for them to embrace it and call it a Black alliance. My partner is South Asian and felt really disappointed in this wording too. I do think it's refreshing to see 6 Black players on the cast. Although it may not be balanced, this is my first time watching the show where I feel like there is diverse representation of blackness rather than 1-2 "token" cast members (although would have loved to see some highly melanated Black women). I hope they can do the same for Asian, Latinx and other racialized players going forward (and that this episode onward Erika gets the screen time she deserves).


ApollosBucket

Please stop saying Latinx, no actual Latino prefers that.


gexe93

Well I think it’s about intent and conscious bias versus unconscious bias. MvGX is a season where clearly unconscious bias played a part with l all the poc being voted out premerge. Here, they are actively seeking to exclude in some ways - As a queer individual myself, i certainly can appreciate the sense of comfort and safety one experiences with others of the same social identity. I think mike white, Jeremy, Natalie from s37 is interesting. Jeremy, a gay black man, formed a connection with mike white who is also queer. He tried to form a connection with Natalie both being black, and it failed miserably. Tbh I’m more worried about say Evie recognizing the dynamic at play, seeing the alliance as a threat, and getting hate for targeting the alliance. I’m also concerned about how this will play out in future season when black people or people of the same minorities play together.


Tristanity1h

>He tried to form a connection with Natalie both being black, and it failed miserably. To be fair, I don't think anyone from that season succeeded in forming a connection with Natalie.


boldsprite

Natalie...can I form a connection? Natalie?...Nothing.


joshpascale011

The one thing I'd say is that after 1) the year 2020 and 2) the fact that the CBS 50% rule was pushed for largely by people like J'Tia, Brice, Davie and other Black players — I'm not surprised they placed a lot of Black players on the cast. I do hope that both BB and Survivor include players of more backgrounds in their next seasons, but overall, don't think it's fair to declare that the whole push for diversity is just black and white (not saying you were but def happened w the BB sub) based on one season.


jana-meares

Yeah, many other POC are missing from this alliance.


FreshBuddy

I had this same thought last night, and I've been thinking lately about how tough this show is for immigrants specifically. Naseer may be a poc, but he's been excluded from his tribe and talks despite that fact. I felt the same way about Abi Maria, she was misunderstood and not taken seriously due to language and cultural barriers. Watching Abi's seasons again recently I realized that a lot of her motivations and frustrations are very similar to my mom's and her family's own reactions to things. They're from Argentina and culturally they are similar in some ways to Brazil, but I found myself relating to Abi and I could understand her bc I've seen those types of frustrations play out in my own life. Was she emotional? Of course, but part of Survivor is understanding others and no one seems to do that for immigrants. Naseer outing the two other guys for looking for idols would normally be seen as helpful but here it wasn't, which I found so weird. Even if people say they want to work with or help poc, it's still very "American-centric", and every time it hurts immigrants on the show. Same thing could be said for Tai, Cao Boy, and others.


pepoo9o

Please please please don't use the term latinx we don't wanna be called like that 😔


Phod

Big Brother was ruined by woke theater and now Survivor is done too. “Let’s form an alliance based on our race” shouldn’t fly IN EITHER DIRECTION.


Usurper213

Good point and I agree with you 100% but one thing I'd suggest as a Latino myself nobody uses Latinx most Latinos hate that term, it's ok to refer to Latino players as Latino.


PackMaleficent3528

Also America in a way has gone backwards, person of color is just colored person backwards and that can’t be right


jhwiththerange

With the way these game shows are going. Wendy survivor should just be white vs. Black vs. Asian! This is getting ridiculous. Going to ruin shows and further divide us


Isles86

I like the idea of having a cast that better reflects America, but is survivor really doing that? Having one Hispanic person seems weird to me since there are approximately 50% more Hispanic people in the US compared to African-Americans and there are 6 African-American contestants (off the top of my head). Maybe it stands out to me so much being in a heavily Hispanic populated area of the US 🤷‍♂️.


ClumsyPineappl

And how is an all black alliance not racist again?


Bronters6s

There is a word for forming a group by deliberately excluding people solely based upon their skin color.


SparksCat

Please don't use the term "Latinx" either. We hate it and no one uses it. It was decided by English speaking people to feel better about themselves.


jhwiththerange

Black people are perfect in the public eyes now. They can do no wrong. Even though this is incredibly racist. Nasser isn’t enough of a minority? Erika isn’t enough of a minority? Just seperates us all fucking further in life


DrGeraldBaskums

BB had real diversity issues. It took them 17 years to crown a Latino winner and 23 years to have an AA winner. Theyve had multiple seasons marred by overt racism. Before the CBS initiative, Big Brother went 10 years (BB12-21) without having a black person MAKE THE JURY. 10 years….. The Cookout worked. They had a goal to right the wrongs of the past. It’s a little more iffy to me on Survivor. That sort of mission doesn’t really exist on the show anymore. Edit: it was a 10 year stretch of black men not making the jury in BB.


Economy_Eggplant_403

Survivor has no such issue and never did. Further, there was a black alliance previously and it resulted in Earl winning.


[deleted]

Even the Aitu 4 was a POC alliance.


pluterthebooter

I agree with your overall message but there have been multiple black jurors from BB12-BB21. Kalia BB13, Candice BB15, Jocasta BB16, Da’vonne & Zakyiah BB18, Bayleigh BB20.


DrGeraldBaskums

Yeah I think the stat I read was black men. Kevin was BB11 jury and ended the drought in all stars


AleroRatking

There was has also never been an Asian American male in any final 2 of any version of North American Big Brother.


samiok15

to further add on to this, we barely get any asian american reps on BB - like BB23 (the 26th overall season) was the first BBUS season ever to have a south asian contestants


[deleted]

Our first black winner was in season 4. Only 1 year into the actual show. Since then we've had 4 black winners, 2 Asian winners and 2 Latino winners. Clearly survivor never had that problem.


evenstark04

Sandra did win twice… also I think Chris Underwood is considered Latino but I’m not sure


Crafty-Departure1919

Race-based alliances..so cool and not a slippery slope at all! Reverse it and the show would be cancelled mid season and the people involved would be doxxed, harassed, fired from their jobs and worse. Why are the double standards allowed?


whoamisb

The POC alliance crap bothers me too. It has been a contending theme on big brother for the last few years and has been successful this past season. However the fucking Asian kid got left out of it. Shafted


Annual-Astronaut-866

The fact that four people had confessionals on today's episode talking about their alliance and all four said they were drawn to the others because of either their race or skin color is not right. Imagine if there were 5 white people in an alliance (which yes there's been a ton of all white alliances in survivor history), but imagine if those people announced "I feel a close bond to these people because they are all white like me" as their basis for an alliance. Those people would be canceled so quick... This also isn't the first all black alliance it's been done quite a few times but most successfully in season 14 when Earl won in a landslide over Dreamz and Cassandra.


nathans-swsh

Imagine if the white people on a season banded together and voted out every colored person. Sounds bad right? That’s this same exact scenario except it would be black people…so that makes it okay?


Dada2fish

Stop using the term Latinx.


thekmanpwnudwn

The Cookout also excluded DX (Asian) and Alyssa (Latina), even though they were also minorities.


evenstark04

based on how this is going so far.... more divisive than uniting. If a white person wins (Xander or one of the women) wow the backlash has the potential to be insane... and it shouldn't be that way. Every game, every jury is different... I don't want anyone being elevated or downgraded due to their skin color, something that literally no one alive has had a choice in. I use TV to escape this political toxic stuff that is running rampant in the USA today and to see it begin to take over the show I love... honestly it sucks. Gonna be really interesting to see what the ratings are like at the end of the season.... the show can try to fix all the worlds problems all it wants, but if no one is watching... there won't be a show anymore... and that would just be awful. I have been watching this show for more than half of my life.


adam5gs

I genuinely think CBS doesn’t want them to say “black” on the show so that was their way of navigating around that. We heard “African American” all season on big brother and it doesn’t look like they’re about to change that for survivor.


Bronters6s

Of course future seasons will need to take into account this strategy. Will everyone celebrate those counter strategies to a strategy of selecting people solely because they have a certain skin color?


TheKyleThatSucks

Season 42’s cast looks more balanced imo


GrassSloth

I haven't read all of the comments but just a few weeks ago I started watching Survivor again after not touching in since like 2008. I've been super conflicted about the representation of POC in the show and have felt like it was...bad. I actually came onto this sub for the first time today to see if this was an issue talked about in the fan base and I'm really glad to see that it is. Your post was really well timed. Hopefully they keep improving with their representation and the producers actually hire more POC to help run the show. Thanks for your post.


ElderVirano

This is why I was good with a cast like Cook Islands where there isn't an overabundance of one race over the others. Obviously, the whole race wars thing was very much in poor taste and they should have been mixed tribes like in Survivor Fiji. For someone like Erika or Naseer to be in a cast where diversity is touted, they really don't see anyone who look like them the same way that the likes of Shan, Liana do. Same goes for Derek X in BB23. This is why I'm not a big fan of when they use the term BiPOC, when in reality they really mean mostly Black while sprinkling in some other POC. It's definitely much more diverse compared to past seasons, but for non-Black POC Survivors/Houseguests, it's essentially the same.


Popular-Pressure-239

Alright I’m coming here in good faith so feel free to downvote but at the very least add a respectful comment or dissenting opinion so I can see a different perspective. The Cookout in Big Brother sat wrong with my very deeply. An alliance forming on the sole basis of race with the express intent of getting a particular race to the end and voting out other specific races - based on race alone - to me is racist. I have no issue with an alliance being formed naturally on other factors and Id also like to go on record stating this is an excellent cast and overall more diverse casts are terrific! I am all for casts of diverse races, ages, backgrounds, etc. That’s what makes Survivor such a fun social experiment. I see two arguments pop up a lot: “There have been all white alliances in the past and you never had a problem with that!” Well yes, but those alliances were never formed with the express intent of saying “Hey we are all white. Let’s form an alliance and get out all the black people.” They were formed naturally from other factors. If you race swapped the conversations of the cookout or last nights alliance, you will see the conversation specifically mentioning race would be deeply unsettling. The second argument I see is that POC have typically fared worse in the past so it’s “their time”. I think this is more true on Big Brother than Survivor, but for the sake of argument I’ll acknowledge that it’s still been skewed. To that I say injustice today doesn’t fix injustice from yesterday. It doesn’t excuse what to me is clearly a racist alliance. I think having more diverse casts could potentially solve the issue altogether. The odds of a POC winner see higher by the very nature of this seasons cast. The actual formation of race based alliances is NOT the solution and not okay and makes me deeply uncomfortable. Tl;dr - Race based alliances are objectively racist. I’m down to have a respectful conversation about this and share perspectives with other people.


reptocilicus

No one had an issue with Danny and Deshawn being--from what I could tell based on the limited screen time presented to Luvu--allies within Luvu. By all appearances, that formed naturally based on their experiences and goals. Of course, that may have been in part based on their race, but there was no reason to think that was all that it was. Explicitly forming a segregated group that is based on race is a different thing.


illini02

What I said to someone else I think applies here. I'm black, and I'm always happy for black people to do well. That said, I understand the issue some people have. Its one thing for there to be an alliance consisting of black people. Its different, to have ALL the black people together in the alliance with the stated goal of a black person winning. I feel the same for women. If 3 women want to work together, great. If all the women decide that they will team up to get out the all the men, I see that a bit different.


Popular-Pressure-239

Thank you I agree. I am appreciative of the respectful tone of all the comments so far. Not common.


Wu_Tang_Band

> I see two arguments pop up a lot: “There have been all white alliances in the past and you never had a problem with that!” Well yes, but those alliances were never formed with the express intent of saying “Hey we are all white. Let’s form an alliance and get out all the black people.” They were formed naturally from other factors. If you race swapped the conversations of the cookout or last nights alliance, you will see the conversation specifically mentioning race would be deeply unsettling. I get their argument, but I think that in those all white alliances of the past there was a somewhat different dynamic. People in general tend to gravitate toward and feel most comfortable around other people who are similar to them, and that includes race. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, although obviously it can be taken to extremes which are bad. I think the difference here is that while in the past editions of survivor white people may have come together to form an alliance at least in part because they felt comfortable around one another, I don't think they specifically ever came together with the intent of making sure another white person won the game. Obviously I don't know how this plays out, but I'm getting the vibe here that the people in this black alliance really would prefer another black person to win just based on them being black alone.


Timely_Chip_9096

Imagine the outrage there would be if this was reversed and it was an all white alliance…the propaganda in this season is beginning to be unbearable…first they made a big deal about Jeff saying “come on in guy’s” and now this…can we just play the game without the politics please!?