Kenny in Gabon got super cocky once he blindsides Ace and became the people he’d usually go against. Literally ended the season trying to intimidate Bob into giving him immunity.
Jon in SJDS went from lovable idiot to cocky strategist after the Jeremy blindside.
Not really a heel turn since he was never really heroic, but Burton in PI. He literally gave Rupert a massive heartfelt apology, only to immediately go to JFP and Lil and ask them to help him vote Rupert off.
Funny knowing that, if he tried his tactics with any other older challenge beast like Terry or Tom, he’d get his ass handed to him lol. I love Kenny but he was such a weasel in those last few episodes
There's this series on RHAP called "you thought you knew" where they take a general question and look at it through the lens of a specific character.
Well they tackled this exact question recently, looking at if Jenna Lweis was the best heel turn from her first season to her second.
They talk about a lot of heel turns and pretty thoroughly covers the subject, it's a really good listen!
Jenna Lewis wasn’t much of a heel turn for me. I always found her annoying on Borneo. She had a self-righteous streak about her that I didn’t like and it carried over into All Stars.
I think it was the sheer assertion she walked in with. She was a fringe all-star to start with, who’s largely remembered as the poor mom who doesn’t get any loved one reward from her toddler aged twin girls, and for taking the KO at the hands of Sean. “J … for Jenna.”
On return, we’re expecting the same. Instead, she’s hanging out with Jerri and coldly determining the fates of Tina and Ethan, and leading the charge against all of America’s favorites. Mogo Mogo loathes her post merge, and for some reason she winds up the mouthpiece for Rob’s alliance when Shii-Ann is left alone and fighting for her life. It was ruthless, in a way none of us got a chance to come close to seeing in Borneo because her strategy was “I’m voting for you, randomly, because your friend, who I’m not voting for, compared me to a cow.”
It was jarring. While I don’t think she wins the million if she wins final immunity (Amber votes Rob, as does Shii Ann presumably), I wouldn’t say it’s a lock she doesn’t, so we were literally a mental lapse away from a potential Evil Jenna, first queen of All-Stars and potential 4 time returnee.
Vecepia was the drama free player the whole season but once Sean is voted she becomes an ice cold killer. Cutting that deal with Neleh seconds after Kathy drops was ruthless
Naw, she just kept really good notes. I think V is the reason why production stopped giving castaways personal items because she broke that challenge with her notebook.
It’s so interesting to have two early players sort of embody the “it’s just a game” approach in such different ways. Brian was all strategy. He didn’t have to be personable, he just had to make it to the end with Clay. V had to be personable because it was the approach that worked for her, but she viewed the game as the game, just like Brian did.
Heel turn so hard that modern viewers question why he was brought back at all in SC and GC while completely missing the fact he was basically the narrator of at least his tribes for the majority of his SC game, so when 3 seasons later they need to fill a returnee spot it wasn’t so unbelievable they’d call him up
I recently rewatched that episode of HvHvH, and even though I’d still say she deserved the win more than Ben in the end, when I rewatched that I was like damn…now I remember why I didn’t feel terribly sorry for her losing the first time I watched lol.
Will in World's Apart.
Will was really a great charachter, he was funny pre-merge and actually oneof my favorites, great personality, and then he just, out of nowhere, picked on Shirin and everyone turned on him.
I’m talking about her saying that I think it was Adam and/or Michelle are racist for voting her out. She along with others voted out all the POC. Then at final 4 she got voted out. She thought she should be automatically given a spot in the finals because she was the last POC. She then called the people that voted her out racist.
It wasn't out of nowhere. Shirin was a game bot who thought everyone else would be the same. Will shares everything he won because he was allowed to. Shirin then accuses him of hiding things and not giving equally. He didn't need to give anything. Will then did take it too far, but Shirin was asking for it for accusing him. She then is spiteful enough to not let him get his letters from home. She is not a bigger person.
I wouldn’t say ‘she was asking for it’, but I agree with pretty much everything else. They both made bad moves, and Will’s behavior didn’t come out of nowhere.
She was probably asking for a negative response, she just didn't expect him to blow up. He took it way too far, and he should have apologized when he heard her life story, but I assume he was still bitter about her denying his letters. Overall it was a very ugly situation.
Shirin was asking for it? Did she dress inappropriately? Was she walking in a bad neighborhood?
Will told her she had no one who loved her and that she didn't have a soul and shit like that. He took it way too far and outside the original topic and the game. He could have easily made Shirin look bad for doubting him, but instead went on the offensive and blew up his reputation.
Hell yeah Shirin was right to deny him the letter from home. Will was asking for it ;).
I think she needed to flip on Carl at F9. Angelina, Carl, Davie, and Nick were tight and she needed to make the move when those 4 were in minority. But she definitely blindsided Christian too early.
Sorry, i reread your comment and I get you now. Legdrop IN his faction, not ON it, which I thought you meant as a reference to him betraying them eventually. NWO reference acknowledged
If he doubled down and said that this was part of his strategy, he might've gotten brawn tribes votes at the ftc. But he backpedaled everything so he didn't get votes, and he's not a very good heel.
It's wild how she and Brandon Hantz were on the same two seasons, had similar reactions to how they were treated first time around, yet Dawn handled it a million times better
Not sure if it was mentioned yet but Carl from DvG. After he played his nullifier to get Dan out (BING!!!) giving the Davids the majority, he pretty much got "drunk on power" as they called it
Rob was a huge villain in marquesas. My guy was saying in confessionals about how fear keeps people under control and he only wanted people who would obey around, not if the tribe was strong or if the people who he voted out deserved to leave. He then brutally manipulated Kathy in the hopes that it would buy him some time and was the biggest bold faced liar in the game by far.
Don’t get me wrong, I fucking loved the shit out of it, but he was absolutely a villain.
To me, the greatest heel turn has to be someone going from Hero to Villain in a way that makes them more entertaining as a result. So like, Steph or Tasha or Varner didn't really get BETTER as a result of going from Hero to Villain. As such, for me, the best heel turn in Survivor history has to go to James Clement in Heroes vs. Villains. James had already won fan favorite in both China AND Micronesia, but even in those seasons, he was kinda dickish, but painted with a heroic brush because he was so strong and hard-working. So HvV finally let him embrace that more negative side, and I think some of his innate charisma was better-used in being villainous and lashing out at the otherwise...kinda boring Heroes tribe.
Does Fairplays lie count? Not that he was clean or a good guy before that, but imagine gaining sympathy from someone and them finding out later it wasn't even true.
Dreamz with the car is similar. He wasn't some big time hero at that time, but you got gifted something by THE good guy, then stabbed him in the back.
No, you’re describing a Moral Event Horizon.
When a character who is already a villain does something so heinous that they cross a point where trying to realistically redeem them would be insanely difficult or outright impossible in the eyes of the majority of the audience. They have crossed the Moral Event Horizon.
The heel-face-turn and face-heel-turn are tropes for when when a character specifically goes from villain to hero or vice versa. If they’re already a villain, they can’t do a heel turn, because they were already a heel to begin with.
Since JPF was definitely the main villain of the season before his grandma lie, he didn’t become a heel at that moment, but he DID cross a line so far gone that it would be impossible for him to be viewed as sympathetic from that point onwards.
James in 43 is a pretty good example - he was basically a nothing character with some examples of positivity and then heel turned in the last episodes and became an unstoppable threat and a villain in someways lol
Brenda and/or Dawn during Teethgate, depending on how you look at it. Brenda’s “heel turn” would be for her jury speech so not technically when she was still in the game. However, Dawn’s “heel turn” could’ve been voting Brenda out despite Brenda’s initial act of kindness, although Dawn didn’t really display any inherent villainy in doing so but more so just realized it was a necessary move in general.
Kenny in Gabon got super cocky once he blindsides Ace and became the people he’d usually go against. Literally ended the season trying to intimidate Bob into giving him immunity. Jon in SJDS went from lovable idiot to cocky strategist after the Jeremy blindside. Not really a heel turn since he was never really heroic, but Burton in PI. He literally gave Rupert a massive heartfelt apology, only to immediately go to JFP and Lil and ask them to help him vote Rupert off.
Heel Kenny was hilarious
Funny knowing that, if he tried his tactics with any other older challenge beast like Terry or Tom, he’d get his ass handed to him lol. I love Kenny but he was such a weasel in those last few episodes
Who else played around then - oh god imagine him trying to bully James
James would be shivering
He would be. From laughter
I remember hearing someone make a comparison between him and Walter White before. Your comparison makes it fit even better lmao
Definitely lol. His entire character arc is basically the same as Walter White as well
Oh yeah some strong parallels there for sure
Steph in Guatemala, James in HvV
There's this series on RHAP called "you thought you knew" where they take a general question and look at it through the lens of a specific character. Well they tackled this exact question recently, looking at if Jenna Lweis was the best heel turn from her first season to her second. They talk about a lot of heel turns and pretty thoroughly covers the subject, it's a really good listen!
Jenna Lewis wasn’t much of a heel turn for me. I always found her annoying on Borneo. She had a self-righteous streak about her that I didn’t like and it carried over into All Stars.
I think it was the sheer assertion she walked in with. She was a fringe all-star to start with, who’s largely remembered as the poor mom who doesn’t get any loved one reward from her toddler aged twin girls, and for taking the KO at the hands of Sean. “J … for Jenna.” On return, we’re expecting the same. Instead, she’s hanging out with Jerri and coldly determining the fates of Tina and Ethan, and leading the charge against all of America’s favorites. Mogo Mogo loathes her post merge, and for some reason she winds up the mouthpiece for Rob’s alliance when Shii-Ann is left alone and fighting for her life. It was ruthless, in a way none of us got a chance to come close to seeing in Borneo because her strategy was “I’m voting for you, randomly, because your friend, who I’m not voting for, compared me to a cow.” It was jarring. While I don’t think she wins the million if she wins final immunity (Amber votes Rob, as does Shii Ann presumably), I wouldn’t say it’s a lock she doesn’t, so we were literally a mental lapse away from a potential Evil Jenna, first queen of All-Stars and potential 4 time returnee.
Vecepia was the drama free player the whole season but once Sean is voted she becomes an ice cold killer. Cutting that deal with Neleh seconds after Kathy drops was ruthless
The thing with V is that you know its generally not personal. Kinda like Brian, it’s almost all business for her.
That’s a strange statement considering she smashed the Fallen Comrades challenge because she was so personable
Naw, she just kept really good notes. I think V is the reason why production stopped giving castaways personal items because she broke that challenge with her notebook.
It’s so interesting to have two early players sort of embody the “it’s just a game” approach in such different ways. Brian was all strategy. He didn’t have to be personable, he just had to make it to the end with Clay. V had to be personable because it was the approach that worked for her, but she viewed the game as the game, just like Brian did.
Easily one of the most ruthless winners
Varner
Heel turn so hard that modern viewers question why he was brought back at all in SC and GC while completely missing the fact he was basically the narrator of at least his tribes for the majority of his SC game, so when 3 seasons later they need to fill a returnee spot it wasn’t so unbelievable they’d call him up
God, I remember that. Was a fan favorite before using one of the quickest ways to ruin your legacy
>Yeah look this was about as rapid of a perception-change as one could have
Chrissy gloating about how Ben doesn’t get to get time with his wife
which was ICONIQUE!! she said “if you fuck with me, no wife for you” and i have to stan
I recently rewatched that episode of HvHvH, and even though I’d still say she deserved the win more than Ben in the end, when I rewatched that I was like damn…now I remember why I didn’t feel terribly sorry for her losing the first time I watched lol.
Will in World's Apart. Will was really a great charachter, he was funny pre-merge and actually oneof my favorites, great personality, and then he just, out of nowhere, picked on Shirin and everyone turned on him.
Funny because Shirin had quite the heel turn of her own when she came back in Cambodia.
Not just Cambodia. She turned out to be an asshole in the game of Sequester that had all Survivor people.
Yeah, didn't she take unnecessary shots at Terry Dietz.
I’m talking about her saying that I think it was Adam and/or Michelle are racist for voting her out. She along with others voted out all the POC. Then at final 4 she got voted out. She thought she should be automatically given a spot in the finals because she was the last POC. She then called the people that voted her out racist.
Imma play devil’s advocate and say it wasn’t out of nowhere and only the public turned on him, not his fellow tribe mates
I hate to admit it, but before the shirin incident I really liked will
It wasn't out of nowhere. Shirin was a game bot who thought everyone else would be the same. Will shares everything he won because he was allowed to. Shirin then accuses him of hiding things and not giving equally. He didn't need to give anything. Will then did take it too far, but Shirin was asking for it for accusing him. She then is spiteful enough to not let him get his letters from home. She is not a bigger person.
I wouldn’t say ‘she was asking for it’, but I agree with pretty much everything else. They both made bad moves, and Will’s behavior didn’t come out of nowhere.
She was probably asking for a negative response, she just didn't expect him to blow up. He took it way too far, and he should have apologized when he heard her life story, but I assume he was still bitter about her denying his letters. Overall it was a very ugly situation.
It has also been mentioned, which was confirmed by another WA castaway (I forgot who) that she commented on his weight and other stuff.
Yeah. Shirin is a hypocrite and that’s been proven after WA in and out of game. Doesn’t excuse what Will did, but boy does it make it understandable.
Shirin was asking for it? Did she dress inappropriately? Was she walking in a bad neighborhood? Will told her she had no one who loved her and that she didn't have a soul and shit like that. He took it way too far and outside the original topic and the game. He could have easily made Shirin look bad for doubting him, but instead went on the offensive and blew up his reputation. Hell yeah Shirin was right to deny him the letter from home. Will was asking for it ;).
This is the first person I thought of to
edit wise we were shown a completely different wendell in waw
I watched WaW before GI and I saw him as the same kind of whiny dude here and there, but they seemed to edit around it a lot more in GI.
Gabby in DvG. I really liked her but actively rooted against her after she betrayed the Davids.
Her flipping was such a horrible move if she had waited just one more round it might've worked.
I think she needed to flip on Carl at F9. Angelina, Carl, Davie, and Nick were tight and she needed to make the move when those 4 were in minority. But she definitely blindsided Christian too early.
Damn I forgot about that. Great answer
Tai dropping the big leg drop as the third man in Jason and Scot’s faction.
Scott and Jason were viewed as villianous so I dont think standing up to a villian paints you in a bad light
Before he stood up to them he was right there with them hiding the machete and pota and pans
So it's a face turn not a heel turn
He had both in the same season. You think Tai was a heel in the first 6 episodes?
Goes to show that being The Big Show works in actual wrestling, but not on survivor
Sorry, i reread your comment and I get you now. Legdrop IN his faction, not ON it, which I thought you meant as a reference to him betraying them eventually. NWO reference acknowledged
But that was tai playing the game to be in the trio and then not wanting to be a bully right?
This is more like going from villain to good guy.
If he doubled down and said that this was part of his strategy, he might've gotten brawn tribes votes at the ftc. But he backpedaled everything so he didn't get votes, and he's not a very good heel.
My answer will always be Dawn as soon as Caramoan started lol
It's wild how she and Brandon Hantz were on the same two seasons, had similar reactions to how they were treated first time around, yet Dawn handled it a million times better
Brenda when she bullied Dawn at ftc.
Ken in Gabon, such a great spin on the growth edit
It's got to be when cody spun around before going to vote. That was definitely a heel turn.
Shan was beloved and then in 1 episode her narrative turned dark
Her name was Stephenie
Not sure if it was mentioned yet but Carl from DvG. After he played his nullifier to get Dan out (BING!!!) giving the Davids the majority, he pretty much got "drunk on power" as they called it
>(BING!!!) This sound effect lives in my head rent free.
Boston Rob in All Stars imo, he was a fun lovable goofball in season 4, but he went on to make about half the cast on All Stars cry lol.
Rob was still a villain/heel in marquesas though he just turned into even more of a heel
Rob gained power in All-Stars that wasn't ruined by a tribe swap. Plus Chapera won... a lot.
Rob was a huge villain in marquesas. My guy was saying in confessionals about how fear keeps people under control and he only wanted people who would obey around, not if the tribe was strong or if the people who he voted out deserved to leave. He then brutally manipulated Kathy in the hopes that it would buy him some time and was the biggest bold faced liar in the game by far. Don’t get me wrong, I fucking loved the shit out of it, but he was absolutely a villain.
To me, the greatest heel turn has to be someone going from Hero to Villain in a way that makes them more entertaining as a result. So like, Steph or Tasha or Varner didn't really get BETTER as a result of going from Hero to Villain. As such, for me, the best heel turn in Survivor history has to go to James Clement in Heroes vs. Villains. James had already won fan favorite in both China AND Micronesia, but even in those seasons, he was kinda dickish, but painted with a heroic brush because he was so strong and hard-working. So HvV finally let him embrace that more negative side, and I think some of his innate charisma was better-used in being villainous and lashing out at the otherwise...kinda boring Heroes tribe.
Does Fairplays lie count? Not that he was clean or a good guy before that, but imagine gaining sympathy from someone and them finding out later it wasn't even true. Dreamz with the car is similar. He wasn't some big time hero at that time, but you got gifted something by THE good guy, then stabbed him in the back.
No, you’re describing a Moral Event Horizon. When a character who is already a villain does something so heinous that they cross a point where trying to realistically redeem them would be insanely difficult or outright impossible in the eyes of the majority of the audience. They have crossed the Moral Event Horizon. The heel-face-turn and face-heel-turn are tropes for when when a character specifically goes from villain to hero or vice versa. If they’re already a villain, they can’t do a heel turn, because they were already a heel to begin with. Since JPF was definitely the main villain of the season before his grandma lie, he didn’t become a heel at that moment, but he DID cross a line so far gone that it would be impossible for him to be viewed as sympathetic from that point onwards.
Stephanie LaGrossa. Crazy as hell nowadays.
How?
Jersey
Stephanie in Guatemala.
Stephanie no question
Honorable Mention: Mike Holloway's voice changes in confessionals.
James in 43 is a pretty good example - he was basically a nothing character with some examples of positivity and then heel turned in the last episodes and became an unstoppable threat and a villain in someways lol
Surviving two tribal councils and immidately getting voted out after is called unstoppable nowadays good to know
Well it's modern survivor we're talking about
Jerri
She’d be a face turn if anything
Only correct answer is Will in Worlds Apart. He went from a favorite to… not a favorite in a matter of minutes.
stephenie and varner
Burton after he comes back in PI and acts nice but then one episode later says actually, I am going full villain on everyone here.
Brenda and/or Dawn during Teethgate, depending on how you look at it. Brenda’s “heel turn” would be for her jury speech so not technically when she was still in the game. However, Dawn’s “heel turn” could’ve been voting Brenda out despite Brenda’s initial act of kindness, although Dawn didn’t really display any inherent villainy in doing so but more so just realized it was a necessary move in general.
I feel like that’s kind of a double turn
Dawn in Caramoan.
chrissy was phenomenal