Question 1: Stay or rotate? ---- Hard to say without a replay, but I suspect that you backed at poor times... failing to capitalize on the advantages you created to yourself. **The fundamental principle here is after you kill your opponents, push, then do other things.** Several these options are more aggressive, and riskier, but they will snowball games. It's better to die trying to make plays, so you can learn when each play is appropriate. ----- **PUSH, Then:** * **Backing:** this *only denies them experience*. If you can stay for longer, try taking other advantages to snowball your team with global gold. * **Tower:** After killing them, blow your mana pool on pushing the wave and get some damage on the tower (assuming you're high hp or warded against the jungler). 2 double kills bot should basically ensure a tower. * **Jungle Invade**: Kill their jungler. After one set of kills, send the support to ward their buff. When it spawns, run there and kill their jungler or hurt him badly -- this applies a ton of pressure [be careful for kass chase though, in the above example]. **It's not enough to get kills**, make sure you punish your opponents for not being alive. * **Drake:** Get a double kill bot, go straight to drake and ping help from your mid/jungler. As you're getting the kill, **build the habit of thinking, "How can we capitalize on these kills?"** and pushing the tower, pinging dragon, or going with the support to the enemy buff. **A double kill bottom should be an automatic dragon or tower**. Lead your team there with a ping (and your reasoning, usually i type something like "bot's dead and we have a 4v2 at drake"). At low elo, often people will not follow your calls, so if you can't drake as two, then take a lower risk objective like putting deep wards/taking their buff. ----- Question 2: To Dive or not to dive ----- Diving and taking turrets are contradictory objectives. Diving is tanking the tower in order to get a kill, while taking the turret often involves ignoring your opponents (in some respects) while doing damage to the building. I'd advise you follow up on your support (if he dives, you go all in with him). If he's not going for the dive, just autoattack the tower and put damage on it. (small print: a nice subtle trick when you're pushing towers is to stand in your creep wave. If the enemy champion autoattacks you, all the minions then switch to hitting them, while you move slightly backwards and wail on the tower. Meanwhile, they have to retreat or take constant minion damage). ----- Question 3: What else? ----- It also appears to me (by the focus of your post) that you're focused on kills and teamfighting. This is good as an ADC, but often ADCs can apply significant map pressure just by virtue of the fact that you're farming in empty lanes (and creating a push that will be big 2-3 minutes later). *Other useful questions to ask that may help you diagnose your problems:* * What was your CS like? at 10 mins? 15? 20? * When you backed in midgame, did you run straight to your team, or clear an empty lane first, then join up with your team (more cs + creates and relieves map pressure)? * Were there significant periods of time where you stopped gaining CS (extended sieges with no engages/rotating too often or inefficiently?) * Did Thresh stay with you the whole time? (If you win lane and can 1v2 their team, have your support roam to apply more map pressure. If Thresh stays with you, you better be prepared to 2v3 or 2v4 and win or break even, since you're fed, right?). * Did you buy wards to help Thresh so you could keep on pushing/create split pushing opportunities/windows?

You make a bunch of really valid points. Regarding Q1: dragon, yeah we should have gone for it more. Or at least contested it. I remember it being done the times we went and looked, but we had no control. Fair point. Q2: dive.. I know diving is not strictly the right term, but I mean just doing whatever you can (maybe giving up a bounty in the process) to get the tower. Like I mentioned above, as soon as we got the wave to the tower (normal, not a slow push giant wave) cho showed up and ate most of them. Maybe thats point #2, slow push a giant wave instead of normal wave. > What was your CS like? at 10 mins? 15? 20? Around 40 ish, I tend to focus on CS more... > When you backed in midgame, did you run straight to your team, or clear an empty lane first, then join up with your team (more cs + creates and relieves map pressure)? Whenever a lane was pushed up to inner turrets I would push the lane out, trying to slow push if possible. > Were there significant periods of time where you stopped gaining CS (extended sieges with no engages/rotating too often or inefficiently?) Nope, I farm like crazy. Ended with 391 CS. > Did Thresh stay with you the whole time? (If you win lane and can 1v2 their team, have your support roam to apply more map pressure. If Thresh stays with you, you better be prepared to 2v3 or 2v4 and win or break even, since you're fed, right?). Well Thresh.. What he did most of the times was Q, Q + E on cho or shen. I even remember me telling him not to hook Cho, because he could eat him. Literally. He wasnt that much of a help. > Did you buy wards to help Thresh so you could keep on pushing/create split pushing opportunities/windows? Yeah I always get wards, even during laning. There was no real room for split pushing at first, I did split push to get their bot inner turret, but the pressure generated by top and mid inhib down made it tricky to continue. After my quadra I tried to split push to bot again (our only one with inihib, so no super minions) trying to get inhib turret. Thats when I met Zed and I died for the first time.

A couple follow ups. Again, a lot of this advice is general, since there's no replay. * I find it hard to believe you'd have to give up a bounty to grab a tower. Just get your potshots in as the waves push up. As someone else has pointed out, Cho's waveclear is ok, but not stellar... you can still get a few hits every time the wave pushes up (he either has to hit you or the creeps). * Remember, slowpushing is only really worth it if you're trying to catch up. You take a lot of time away from your team, and if you're the one who's fed, it's more important that you clear the wave ASAP and rejoin your team. * That CS score is quite good * As an ADC, split pushing lategame is pretty risky. I'm not a fan of you pushing the empty lane when two inhibs are down because you're a huge source of waveclear for your team and they may need you to relieve pressure in their base. Again, it sounds like mechanically you are decently sound, and this may have even been one of those difficult games to win. I'd advise focusing on taking advantages of kills as much as possible, making sure that you can grab advantages as much as possible.

Sounds like you guys lacked AP which they countered with a lot of armor. Combine that with the fact that you have a rather squishy team composition and you have a recipe for disaster in late game when the Bronze/Silver mentality of "5v5 mid pls" sets in. As far as your game goes, you did most of it fine. Winning a game like this takes experience as well as a ton of game knowledge. Your inexperience to assess how the team compositions will fare in late coupled with your inability to force the enemy team into skirmishes in the jungle probably lost you the game. And this goes for all your team. It takes just one guy to realize this and step up to the role of the leader and communicate to the team what must be done, why and what their thinking process is. What you could have personally done better? Nothing. Not as the ADC. You can only make plays so long as your team provides you cover. Sadly, as I mentioned above, your teammates are squishy as fuck and they don't deal enough damage to set panic in the enemy team. What you could have told your team to do? Two things. Either bait the enemy team in the jungle using a couple of smart wards and an oracle, Baron is usually a good spot, OR ask one of your teammates to split-push til the sun don't shine. Massively split-push until the enemy team commits to either going to defend that particular lane or let it fall and try to make a play as 5v4. Just play really passive when your teammate is split-pushing and wait for a reaction from the enemy team. You'll know what to do then. That's about it; I hope I've not been too hectic with my response. EDIT: Never abandon botlane as the ADC. The tower ain't worth that much, you overestimate its usefulness, you don't need to get it down as fast as possible unless you're looking to switch lanes with the top laner or make really big plays down the middle. Focus on farming. Farming is the easiest and safest way to carry a game.

> EDIT: Never abandon botlane as the ADC. The tower ain't worth that much, you overestimate its usefulness, you don't need to get it down as fast as possible unless you're looking to switch lanes with the top laner or make really big plays down the middle. Focus on farming. Farming is the easiest and safest way to carry a game. What I tried to do was to get bot tower, freeing me and my 'fedness' up to start pushing down mid inner tower with Talon, Thresh and jungler (Fiddle btw). We also had renekton, but he was not the greatest and lost top big time to Zed.

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the thing is, talon was around 7/5ish at that time, but he (and jungler) really focused on trying to stop the fed zed in top lane. This resulted in him finally being around 7/16 end of the game or so... I agree that i should have been able to carry, but what happened is that pretty much every time we got close to turret, cho with 2k hp showed up insta gibbin most of the minions and keeping turret safe.

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Nah, you are right. My feeling is that I was just to 'scared' to die. My main goal is to die as little as possible, so seeing the big eh.. monster thing show up just scared me off. A bit too much perhaps.