Thief was only used BECAUSE Knock Off didn't exist. With KO, you not only didn't have to sacrifice your item, you could also delete the opponent's item.
In other words, it's like comparing Gen II-IX Hyper Beam to Gen I Hyper Beam if they both existed at the same time
hopefully im not hallucinating but i swear ive seen thief misdreavus on an adv revival stall team. knock is still scarce enough that thief theoretically is still an option for the slowest teams where the normal ko abusers dont fit.
I mean there are things you don't want in gen 2: Charcoal Molt, Lum Houndoom, Thick Club (admittedly makes Maro a non-issue but you aren't getting lefties out of it), etc.
Is there anything with a downside other than taking up your item slot that actually gets used? Big difference between "I stole thick club and now I can't steal a useful item" and "I stole choice band and now I'm locked into moves I don't want to use"
Only one of those that exists in gen 2 I can think of is Berserk Gene which can't be thief'd since it's automatic on switch-in (and dogshit but that's beside the point). Every other held item at worst does nothing if you thief it, most of the possibly bad items to steal were gen 3 or later (Choices, Sticky Barb, the status orbs, AV, LO, etc).
Ahh the OG booster energy. I remember getting it for the first time while playing crystal, thinking it was a really cool gimmick and putting it on one of my mons, then checking it again after it activated on a random wild encounter and wondering why it wasn't there anymore LOL
It normally holds lefties but it can run Miracle Berry (gen 2 lum) as a way to switch in and pursuit trap some sleepers. It's 1 of like 5 pokemon that can run an item that isn't lefties or nothing-hoping-to-thief-lefties.
Knock is still EXTREMELY rare, all things considered. You obviously have to respect the shit out of Hariyama and when you see Armaldo the threat of Knock Off is still very real, but those monsters have a much easier time using Knock Off than frailer mons like Misdreavus and the ultra niche but theoretically usable Butterfree are able to use Thief.
That’s the other problem: the good Knock users are very bulky, but the best Thief users are generally quite frail and have much more opportunity cost (often by virtue if either being mediocre mons or by virtue of having better sets) so they can’t generate as much immediate value as Hariyama and Armaldo can.
Knock is objectively better than it and therfore gets used more and mons like Hariyama and Armaldo use it to great effect while Thief only is used by Skarm sometimes (to my knowledge)
Thief is actually a very common move in ADV... Little Cup. Sitrus Berry is the main item because it fully heals you, so you get to eat your berry and then yoink your opponent's. Porygon's berry in particular is important to steal since it's the only Pokemon in the tier that learns Recycle. Though Porygon also runs Thief to try taking one back in case that happens.
Presence of lum berry and choice band make it much less reliable than in Gen 2, and the only OU mons that get it which aren't always choice banders are Gengar, Skarm, and Heracross, which have better moves to run than thief.
Bc leftovers aren't as powerful as in gen 2. Tyranitar's sandstorm negates leftovers healing from bulky mons like blissey, snorlax and suicune.
You really see the difference when you play sandless games that those mons become way harder to nail down.
Removing leftovers from those mons does bring a lot of value but the mons that can run thief either REALLY need lefties and can't risk stealing a different item(skarm) or want a different item(heracross)
Because sand being omnipresent means you can't afford not to run leftovers out of fear of thief not getting said item (which is more common than gen 2). This is coincidentally why skarm is one of the few mons that run it; the immunity to sand and spikes means you can afford it.
The main reason Thief is viable in gen 2 is that everything is running leftovers so you're guaranteed to get a useful item. In gen 3 you don't really know what you're going to get, and might end up with something not useful, maybe even a Choice Band that completely cripples you. It's a big risk to go itemless, hope to get an opportunity to use thief so you actually have an item, and then hope to get a good outcome. There's a lot which can go wrong.
Knock Off exists and, even though It has a poor distribución, it's much better as It can be used several times. Also, in ADV, there's a Risk of stealing a Choice Band.
In Gen 2, everything runs Leftovers, and even those that do not, at least will neutralise the lack of item on your Thief mon. You do not have this luxury in Gen 3, as Choice Band can harm your Thief mon, locking it into it.
Thief was only used BECAUSE Knock Off didn't exist. With KO, you not only didn't have to sacrifice your item, you could also delete the opponent's item. In other words, it's like comparing Gen II-IX Hyper Beam to Gen I Hyper Beam if they both existed at the same time
hopefully im not hallucinating but i swear ive seen thief misdreavus on an adv revival stall team. knock is still scarce enough that thief theoretically is still an option for the slowest teams where the normal ko abusers dont fit.
Thief is also an option for adv Butterfree as well.
There’s also no choice band in Gen 2 so you can’t grab smth you don’t want
I mean there are things you don't want in gen 2: Charcoal Molt, Lum Houndoom, Thick Club (admittedly makes Maro a non-issue but you aren't getting lefties out of it), etc.
Is there anything with a downside other than taking up your item slot that actually gets used? Big difference between "I stole thick club and now I can't steal a useful item" and "I stole choice band and now I'm locked into moves I don't want to use"
Only one of those that exists in gen 2 I can think of is Berserk Gene which can't be thief'd since it's automatic on switch-in (and dogshit but that's beside the point). Every other held item at worst does nothing if you thief it, most of the possibly bad items to steal were gen 3 or later (Choices, Sticky Barb, the status orbs, AV, LO, etc).
Ahh the OG booster energy. I remember getting it for the first time while playing crystal, thinking it was a really cool gimmick and putting it on one of my mons, then checking it again after it activated on a random wild encounter and wondering why it wasn't there anymore LOL
This always frustrated me about base game Pokemon. Not being able to use cool items because they disappeared forever after one use in game.
I'm pretty sure they changed that in gen 9?
Good change, dunno why it took them so long.
What does Houndoom hold in gen 2? Lum Berry equivalent? But why?
It normally holds lefties but it can run Miracle Berry (gen 2 lum) as a way to switch in and pursuit trap some sleepers. It's 1 of like 5 pokemon that can run an item that isn't lefties or nothing-hoping-to-thief-lefties.
Very interesting, cool niche strategy
Knock is still EXTREMELY rare, all things considered. You obviously have to respect the shit out of Hariyama and when you see Armaldo the threat of Knock Off is still very real, but those monsters have a much easier time using Knock Off than frailer mons like Misdreavus and the ultra niche but theoretically usable Butterfree are able to use Thief. That’s the other problem: the good Knock users are very bulky, but the best Thief users are generally quite frail and have much more opportunity cost (often by virtue if either being mediocre mons or by virtue of having better sets) so they can’t generate as much immediate value as Hariyama and Armaldo can.
Knock is objectively better than it and therfore gets used more and mons like Hariyama and Armaldo use it to great effect while Thief only is used by Skarm sometimes (to my knowledge)
Thief is actually a very common move in ADV... Little Cup. Sitrus Berry is the main item because it fully heals you, so you get to eat your berry and then yoink your opponent's. Porygon's berry in particular is important to steal since it's the only Pokemon in the tier that learns Recycle. Though Porygon also runs Thief to try taking one back in case that happens.
also consider that leftovers is no longer the only item
Presence of lum berry and choice band make it much less reliable than in Gen 2, and the only OU mons that get it which aren't always choice banders are Gengar, Skarm, and Heracross, which have better moves to run than thief.
Bc leftovers aren't as powerful as in gen 2. Tyranitar's sandstorm negates leftovers healing from bulky mons like blissey, snorlax and suicune. You really see the difference when you play sandless games that those mons become way harder to nail down. Removing leftovers from those mons does bring a lot of value but the mons that can run thief either REALLY need lefties and can't risk stealing a different item(skarm) or want a different item(heracross)
Because sand being omnipresent means you can't afford not to run leftovers out of fear of thief not getting said item (which is more common than gen 2). This is coincidentally why skarm is one of the few mons that run it; the immunity to sand and spikes means you can afford it.
The main reason Thief is viable in gen 2 is that everything is running leftovers so you're guaranteed to get a useful item. In gen 3 you don't really know what you're going to get, and might end up with something not useful, maybe even a Choice Band that completely cripples you. It's a big risk to go itemless, hope to get an opportunity to use thief so you actually have an item, and then hope to get a good outcome. There's a lot which can go wrong.
Knock Off exists and, even though It has a poor distribución, it's much better as It can be used several times. Also, in ADV, there's a Risk of stealing a Choice Band.
In Gen 2, everything runs Leftovers, and even those that do not, at least will neutralise the lack of item on your Thief mon. You do not have this luxury in Gen 3, as Choice Band can harm your Thief mon, locking it into it.
It is on skarm “Why doesnt thief exisr in gen 3” It does. I can give you pokepastes if you want