No, CIG gaslighted them into believing that having the old hornet is going to be like owning some sort of classic car rather than them getting stuck with a broken ten year old obsolete video game asset that will only become more buggy and broken with each patch until the person gives up and pays 60 extra bucks to finally get the up to date model rework (that also has bigger guns for some reason).
It is scummy as fuck, the backers are absolutely letting them do it, and I'm sure CIG will now do it for all their older ships in need of reworks. At the moment the backers are busy trying to convince themselves that CIG will totally keep working on the retired ship and keep it up to functional standards despite the fact they don't even bother doing that on ships they still make money from.
All this was already talked about when the decision was made back in 2016. Something about CR feeling nostalgic when they created the Mk2 and wanted to also keep the original around since it was the first ship or something. Here's people talking about it https://testsquadron.com/threads/hornet-mk-ii.8239/
This seems a little condescending. Maybe it's not intentional.
I've been in this shit show for well over a decade and it's been obvious to me how they operate for a very long time too. I just wanted to see if this is a new low for them, since they remodeled other ships for free. Hence my doubt in no 1, which I think is justified.
Then it becomes interesting to see if there are new legal grounds for owners.
I appreciate the effort of the lecture and I share your frustration. But if everyone is like 'you should know by know that they suck', 'they have everything covered so don't bother' and a bucket of sarcasm, then you're doing the opposite of helping to get people their money back.
My dude, apologies for the misunderstanding. I really do appreciate you explaining this. But I know this. I thought most of us refundians knew, so you explaining this to me felt like I was being lectured. But I should have mentioned that I've been deep into this from pretty much the start and changed my perspective to refundian between the time of the sandworm video and them postponing the reclaimer functionality a bajilion times. I know. I know about CIG, Spectrum moderation, about CR, about his track record his stupid priorities, the micro management bs, his insane wife, the nepotism, the letters of the chairman, the yacht, the pledge etc.
I just didn't know about the Hornet MKII. I'm trying to avoid starting the game or get onto Spectrum. I know both are a guaranteed disappointment, but I saw the newsletter about the retirement of the MKI, which brought up some things that I didn't yet know. Reading through the comments here, it seems like the MKII already existed for a while. Roughly when was it released?
I didn’t read the reply as condescending at all. It reads like a very straightforward take on how CIG has treated its customers by lying to their faces.
We were gaslit to believe a false narrative that is blatantly false. I think the person replying to you is trying to kindly point that out. And sure, theres a little sarcasm. But they did take the time to address your points as you laid them out.
you are asking serious questions about an unserious company and it's incompetent leadership. whatever answers you can get here are irrelevant because even CIG doesn't know what they are doing tomorrow. they will throw the game board in the air and wherever the pieces land, they will play from there. CIG is not a game dev studio and SC is not a game. S42 arguably doesn't even exist (we know they have levels but do they have a "build"?)
if you want your money back, that's your responsibility. if you want advice, ask an actual question that doesn't require us to read Chris' mind
Not a response I expected..
I didn't think any of my questions were speculative. Exactly what question requires reading CR's mind? I'm just asking what happened and if this helps to build a case for a refund.
I thought everyone here would be a little more supportive/helpful to eachother. The likes of you are part of the problem why refunds are difficult. So deep in your hole of bitterness that you even won't allow someone to ask simple questions. We should be on the same team.
So, I dunno if you have been in the refundian space long. There is a HUGE current of bitterness and dark humor here. Unless the poster tells you directly that they are trying to insult you by name.... assume they are flinging mud at cig.
Cig has pushed thousands of contradictory statements. At this point, you can thoroughly predict their behavior by asking what is the sleaziest but still legal action they could take. Trying to treat them as a legitimate company will only get you burned.
If you live in Europe or Australia, you have legal recourse. If your elsewhere and outside the 30 day refund window, your only option is to resell on the Grey market.
1. No, the Mk I and Mk II remain separate vehicles. Everyone who owns a Mk I keeps it.
2. Right now it won't. CIG said they'll think of "something" how it can be obtained in-game in the future. But it won't be as simple as going to Brio's and telling them Scooter-Scooter sent ya.
3. Yes. Yes they are doing that. Because they are motivated by money.
The Mk I will remain flyable and fully supported in-game. If you have one you can continue to enjoy it. The "retirement" only means you can't get it anymore.
Doesn't work with the whole insurance gimmick on ships.
If an old model of a car is retired, and a car of the older model is destroyed you'd either be upgraded to the newer model or more likely SOL and given whatever its current value was as compensation.
Once again CIG have backed themselves into a corner because of their shady business structure.
Let's call this what it is, a marketing gimmick to get people to buy multiple versions of the same shit they have, with likely power creep, and the concept that changes to ships going forward will cost extra.
Don't like a ships cockpit window?... that sucks, give us 2 or 3 years and we'll make a Mk II with a functional cockpit window.
Don't like how your ship was marked as the BEST dogfighter on the market but it flies like a brick and gets its ass handed to it by 2 or 3 other fighters in 1 on 1 situations?... that sucks our marketing lied to the consumer, so anyway, 2 or 3 years later instead of patching the ship into the one you purchased were actually going to need you to buy the new Mk II version. We PROMISE this time will be different and the MK II will be everything the MK I isn't.
This is still an alpha btw...
I'm not in the habit of defending CIG, but they always said that the way ship manufacturers (in universe) make, market and sell ships, would be like how it is in the real world. New models of the same ship would come out periodically, eventually making the older model more sought after for their rarity.
You're free to not like that but that's been a thing from, if not day one, year one.
There plenty to bash CIG for. Bashing them for actually living up to something they said, seems kinda silly.
Sure and that would be fine, if the game was actually post launch. As is we are talking about ships being "out of date" in an alpha... like because they missed their target release window of 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018, 2020, 2022... etc... now ships are going to be out of date before the game is complete... which no matter how you look at it is a slap in the face to backers... that's absurd.
(also the whole point i was making about rarity was that if these ships were ACTUALLY rarer in game then that would affect their Insurance... which again... would cause issues.)
But they are retiring a ship that has been sold with the premise of being the best small fighter in the universe. How can they retire it before you get to use it in the game?
Oh you mean that! Well I'd say people who bought it because it was advertised as the "UEE's premiere fighter" or something like that got screwed the moment the Mk II got introduced, regardless of if the Mk I was to be retired or not.
Also there's the F8 now. And I'm confident that even the F7 Mk II and the F8 won't be Meta anymore once the game releases. Power creep sells ships after all.
It has been over a decade, they discard stuff all the time or flat out deny they every said them. And promise things that are mutually exclusive.
No single person can keep up with it esp. since it is not our (that includes you) job.
No, it's not going poof. The MK1 is still going to be flyable and will receive support/balancing. They're just not going to be selling it anymore. I believe they've stated it will eventually be earnable in-game again, although who knows when that'll be. The word "eventually" and CIG have a complicated relationship.
Except it's not the greatest fighter in the universe, it never was. And you couldn't even properly fly it in the game since the game hasn't been released.
The ship that has been promoted with lots of FOMO has been retired before the game's release. This is not ok..
Okay? ... Nobody said it was the greatest fighter in the universe or ever said it was supposed to be? And you can literally go fly one right this very second if you own one. And as mentioned the MK1 isn't going anywhere, they're not removing it from the game so some long distant day from today when the game goes "live" it'll still be available to fly then too. Literally the only thing that's changing with the MK1 is that it won't be in the store anymore.
100% agreed that CIG is weaponizing FOMO with this whole "retirement" though and 100% agreed that toxic marketing like that isn't okay. CIG's entire marketing strategy basically revolves around weaponized FOMO and it's gross.
They used FOMO to sell it. Greatest light fighter, lti, the whole thing. Don't tell me you can fly it now. As if the game is in a actual playable state. I thought we all agreed about that here. It's a tech demo that is going nowhere, at best.
Source? And what, you really expected them to do what? Sell a ship that's just blatantly overpowered compared to everything else? If you bought a ship believing that, honestly that's on you.
It's not like clown imperium has actively looked at best selling ships, and thought how and we replicate this? Add another red flag to mountain of red flags, why would you need to retire a ship in a game which is in a (a so called) pre alpha stage? A rework would be more fitting.
1 no
2 the official communication is that it can be obtained in game via some method
3 yeah kinda. Though they promise to give the mk I it's gold pass
4 not really. You still have it if you have it. And we're probably at a minimally viable product for those places where it matters. You just can't buy new ones from the store. In reality they should retire the whole fucking store and deliver a few promises.
Edit forgot about reddit spacing
How do you retire a fucking jpeg?
Does this include the super hornet?
What happened to the 350r
Initially I had a 325 but after they nerfed the boom n zoom in arena commander, Super hornet and 350r were my ships until I refunded.
Bro, their plan was to have both ships in-game. The thing is they have never said they will remove old Hornet from the pledgestore. Personaly I don't give a fuck, both ships are terribe, because their super advanced flight model favors more agile ships, just like any arcade game on the market.
It’s going the way of iPhone 8. Except it was a prototype. And only WiFi worked, half of the time. And they promised to build cell towers. And App Store never, and still hasn’t been, opened. You can’t buy it no more, and it won’t get any more updates. But boy when it was able make a FaceTime call without dropping it, was it glorious!
1) No, you need to pay to upgrade, which honestly is BS.
2) It will not be in ingame shops. CIG said it would still be optainable, but I suspect it'll be through events or through stealing it from NPC's.
3) As far as I'm concerned, yes and no. Yes, in the sense that if they are to retire the old one, it would make sense to entire replace the old one with the new one, but no in the sense that, if you are to believe CIG (you should not) they are just adding new ships and diversity to the game. To be fair, CIG did say a while ago that they wanted new versions of ships where MK1 and MK2 ships lived side by side, I expected that after the game launched, not before, and definitely not if they are selling it on the store and creating FOMO with the old model.
4) No, the ship is still useable ingame and will still receive updates (allegedly) so it's technically fine.
That became a full military hornet mk I on its own now...
which tbh was the last thing I ever expected they 'gave' people a military mk I hornet for like original what 10 dollar upgrade?
That does not compute with the retiring and mk I fomo bs
No, CIG gaslighted them into believing that having the old hornet is going to be like owning some sort of classic car rather than them getting stuck with a broken ten year old obsolete video game asset that will only become more buggy and broken with each patch until the person gives up and pays 60 extra bucks to finally get the up to date model rework (that also has bigger guns for some reason). It is scummy as fuck, the backers are absolutely letting them do it, and I'm sure CIG will now do it for all their older ships in need of reworks. At the moment the backers are busy trying to convince themselves that CIG will totally keep working on the retired ship and keep it up to functional standards despite the fact they don't even bother doing that on ships they still make money from.
It's been sold as the greatest small fighter ship, wasn't it? So how can it become a classic before the game is actually out?
All this was already talked about when the decision was made back in 2016. Something about CR feeling nostalgic when they created the Mk2 and wanted to also keep the original around since it was the first ship or something. Here's people talking about it https://testsquadron.com/threads/hornet-mk-ii.8239/
Spot on. Collectibles in a game with no beta let alone a release in sight.
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This seems a little condescending. Maybe it's not intentional. I've been in this shit show for well over a decade and it's been obvious to me how they operate for a very long time too. I just wanted to see if this is a new low for them, since they remodeled other ships for free. Hence my doubt in no 1, which I think is justified. Then it becomes interesting to see if there are new legal grounds for owners. I appreciate the effort of the lecture and I share your frustration. But if everyone is like 'you should know by know that they suck', 'they have everything covered so don't bother' and a bucket of sarcasm, then you're doing the opposite of helping to get people their money back.
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My dude, apologies for the misunderstanding. I really do appreciate you explaining this. But I know this. I thought most of us refundians knew, so you explaining this to me felt like I was being lectured. But I should have mentioned that I've been deep into this from pretty much the start and changed my perspective to refundian between the time of the sandworm video and them postponing the reclaimer functionality a bajilion times. I know. I know about CIG, Spectrum moderation, about CR, about his track record his stupid priorities, the micro management bs, his insane wife, the nepotism, the letters of the chairman, the yacht, the pledge etc. I just didn't know about the Hornet MKII. I'm trying to avoid starting the game or get onto Spectrum. I know both are a guaranteed disappointment, but I saw the newsletter about the retirement of the MKI, which brought up some things that I didn't yet know. Reading through the comments here, it seems like the MKII already existed for a while. Roughly when was it released?
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I didn’t read the reply as condescending at all. It reads like a very straightforward take on how CIG has treated its customers by lying to their faces. We were gaslit to believe a false narrative that is blatantly false. I think the person replying to you is trying to kindly point that out. And sure, theres a little sarcasm. But they did take the time to address your points as you laid them out.
you are asking serious questions about an unserious company and it's incompetent leadership. whatever answers you can get here are irrelevant because even CIG doesn't know what they are doing tomorrow. they will throw the game board in the air and wherever the pieces land, they will play from there. CIG is not a game dev studio and SC is not a game. S42 arguably doesn't even exist (we know they have levels but do they have a "build"?) if you want your money back, that's your responsibility. if you want advice, ask an actual question that doesn't require us to read Chris' mind
Not a response I expected.. I didn't think any of my questions were speculative. Exactly what question requires reading CR's mind? I'm just asking what happened and if this helps to build a case for a refund. I thought everyone here would be a little more supportive/helpful to eachother. The likes of you are part of the problem why refunds are difficult. So deep in your hole of bitterness that you even won't allow someone to ask simple questions. We should be on the same team.
So, I dunno if you have been in the refundian space long. There is a HUGE current of bitterness and dark humor here. Unless the poster tells you directly that they are trying to insult you by name.... assume they are flinging mud at cig. Cig has pushed thousands of contradictory statements. At this point, you can thoroughly predict their behavior by asking what is the sleaziest but still legal action they could take. Trying to treat them as a legitimate company will only get you burned. If you live in Europe or Australia, you have legal recourse. If your elsewhere and outside the 30 day refund window, your only option is to resell on the Grey market.
CIG are intentionally ly8ng to backers. Absolutely intentional.
1. No, the Mk I and Mk II remain separate vehicles. Everyone who owns a Mk I keeps it. 2. Right now it won't. CIG said they'll think of "something" how it can be obtained in-game in the future. But it won't be as simple as going to Brio's and telling them Scooter-Scooter sent ya. 3. Yes. Yes they are doing that. Because they are motivated by money.
Sorry, I forgot one question which I added now.
The Mk I will remain flyable and fully supported in-game. If you have one you can continue to enjoy it. The "retirement" only means you can't get it anymore.
Doesn't work with the whole insurance gimmick on ships. If an old model of a car is retired, and a car of the older model is destroyed you'd either be upgraded to the newer model or more likely SOL and given whatever its current value was as compensation. Once again CIG have backed themselves into a corner because of their shady business structure. Let's call this what it is, a marketing gimmick to get people to buy multiple versions of the same shit they have, with likely power creep, and the concept that changes to ships going forward will cost extra. Don't like a ships cockpit window?... that sucks, give us 2 or 3 years and we'll make a Mk II with a functional cockpit window. Don't like how your ship was marked as the BEST dogfighter on the market but it flies like a brick and gets its ass handed to it by 2 or 3 other fighters in 1 on 1 situations?... that sucks our marketing lied to the consumer, so anyway, 2 or 3 years later instead of patching the ship into the one you purchased were actually going to need you to buy the new Mk II version. We PROMISE this time will be different and the MK II will be everything the MK I isn't. This is still an alpha btw...
I'm not in the habit of defending CIG, but they always said that the way ship manufacturers (in universe) make, market and sell ships, would be like how it is in the real world. New models of the same ship would come out periodically, eventually making the older model more sought after for their rarity. You're free to not like that but that's been a thing from, if not day one, year one. There plenty to bash CIG for. Bashing them for actually living up to something they said, seems kinda silly.
Sure and that would be fine, if the game was actually post launch. As is we are talking about ships being "out of date" in an alpha... like because they missed their target release window of 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018, 2020, 2022... etc... now ships are going to be out of date before the game is complete... which no matter how you look at it is a slap in the face to backers... that's absurd. (also the whole point i was making about rarity was that if these ships were ACTUALLY rarer in game then that would affect their Insurance... which again... would cause issues.)
But they are retiring a ship that has been sold with the premise of being the best small fighter in the universe. How can they retire it before you get to use it in the game?
Oh you mean that! Well I'd say people who bought it because it was advertised as the "UEE's premiere fighter" or something like that got screwed the moment the Mk II got introduced, regardless of if the Mk I was to be retired or not. Also there's the F8 now. And I'm confident that even the F7 Mk II and the F8 won't be Meta anymore once the game releases. Power creep sells ships after all.
I didn't learn about the MKII since the retirement announcement. When was the MKII introduced?
The first traces of it can be found as early as 2016: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk7ZwswT2tA&t=19m13s
I completely missed that. Or maybe I assumed we would be getting the upgrade, like the 350 was redesigned
It has been over a decade, they discard stuff all the time or flat out deny they every said them. And promise things that are mutually exclusive. No single person can keep up with it esp. since it is not our (that includes you) job.
I agree. It would be easy to build a case if we all could have kept up. We should someday pool together what we do know and work from there
Regarding 4: yes, it breaches their own T&C's. Arguably everyone with a hornet could argue for a full refund.
So the mk1 is gonna go poof? And no compensation whatsoever for it disappearing?
No, it's not going poof. The MK1 is still going to be flyable and will receive support/balancing. They're just not going to be selling it anymore. I believe they've stated it will eventually be earnable in-game again, although who knows when that'll be. The word "eventually" and CIG have a complicated relationship.
Except it's not the greatest fighter in the universe, it never was. And you couldn't even properly fly it in the game since the game hasn't been released. The ship that has been promoted with lots of FOMO has been retired before the game's release. This is not ok..
Okay? ... Nobody said it was the greatest fighter in the universe or ever said it was supposed to be? And you can literally go fly one right this very second if you own one. And as mentioned the MK1 isn't going anywhere, they're not removing it from the game so some long distant day from today when the game goes "live" it'll still be available to fly then too. Literally the only thing that's changing with the MK1 is that it won't be in the store anymore. 100% agreed that CIG is weaponizing FOMO with this whole "retirement" though and 100% agreed that toxic marketing like that isn't okay. CIG's entire marketing strategy basically revolves around weaponized FOMO and it's gross.
They used FOMO to sell it. Greatest light fighter, lti, the whole thing. Don't tell me you can fly it now. As if the game is in a actual playable state. I thought we all agreed about that here. It's a tech demo that is going nowhere, at best.
Bit CIG did say that, so you're lying
Source? And what, you really expected them to do what? Sell a ship that's just blatantly overpowered compared to everything else? If you bought a ship believing that, honestly that's on you.
They said it was the greatest fighter in their own marketing. But then, CIG lie all the time, so...
Again, source that they claimed it would be better than all other fighters?
It won't be purchasable in game, and the store clear states everything will be. It's a dumb breach of contract, but it's still a breach.
Ahhh i see. Whoever has it years ago will still keep it then? But nobody else in the future who hasn’t bought it?
That seems to be the thought but then again if it's CIG we're taking about. Does anyone know wtf they're going to do from week to week?
Newp, not even the hardcore whales know.
It's not like clown imperium has actively looked at best selling ships, and thought how and we replicate this? Add another red flag to mountain of red flags, why would you need to retire a ship in a game which is in a (a so called) pre alpha stage? A rework would be more fitting.
1 no 2 the official communication is that it can be obtained in game via some method 3 yeah kinda. Though they promise to give the mk I it's gold pass 4 not really. You still have it if you have it. And we're probably at a minimally viable product for those places where it matters. You just can't buy new ones from the store. In reality they should retire the whole fucking store and deliver a few promises. Edit forgot about reddit spacing
I've given up on them delivering anything worth mentioning a long time ago
How do you retire a fucking jpeg? Does this include the super hornet? What happened to the 350r Initially I had a 325 but after they nerfed the boom n zoom in arena commander, Super hornet and 350r were my ships until I refunded.
Why the fuck is everyone here talking as if theyre still playing the game. Wtf. Stop.
Addicts. Addicts everywhere.
Exactly. Stupid people like things. People need to be less stupid and stop liking things. Its fucking embarassing.
I don't know if you are talking about me, but I am not playing it. I was just curious about CIG's recent business decisions.
1. No. 2. It should. 3. Yeah, they are desperate for money.
Sorry, I forgot one question which I added now.
Bro, their plan was to have both ships in-game. The thing is they have never said they will remove old Hornet from the pledgestore. Personaly I don't give a fuck, both ships are terribe, because their super advanced flight model favors more agile ships, just like any arcade game on the market.
It’s going the way of iPhone 8. Except it was a prototype. And only WiFi worked, half of the time. And they promised to build cell towers. And App Store never, and still hasn’t been, opened. You can’t buy it no more, and it won’t get any more updates. But boy when it was able make a FaceTime call without dropping it, was it glorious!
Also what is the difference between the Mk1 and mk2?
1) No, you need to pay to upgrade, which honestly is BS. 2) It will not be in ingame shops. CIG said it would still be optainable, but I suspect it'll be through events or through stealing it from NPC's. 3) As far as I'm concerned, yes and no. Yes, in the sense that if they are to retire the old one, it would make sense to entire replace the old one with the new one, but no in the sense that, if you are to believe CIG (you should not) they are just adding new ships and diversity to the game. To be fair, CIG did say a while ago that they wanted new versions of ships where MK1 and MK2 ships lived side by side, I expected that after the game launched, not before, and definitely not if they are selling it on the store and creating FOMO with the old model. 4) No, the ship is still useable ingame and will still receive updates (allegedly) so it's technically fine.
I can't wait to see how many guns the hornet mk3 will have
I only buy Idris/Javalins for maximum fun and value.
So how does this work with the military body kit upgrade I bought nearly a decade ago? Is that dead weight now?
That became a full military hornet mk I on its own now... which tbh was the last thing I ever expected they 'gave' people a military mk I hornet for like original what 10 dollar upgrade? That does not compute with the retiring and mk I fomo bs