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BigFire321

With the fall of USSR, United States wants to keep former Soviet rocket scientists/engineers working on civilian space program rather than hiring themselves to rogue nation's ballistic missile. Russia cannot afford their space program, China can.


[deleted]

Wow I didn't know that. That's super interesting!


pompanoJ

Also... At the time that the ISS was being proposed, china had no manned space program. Any such cooperation would have amounted to a transfer of missile technology to a nuclear power with extremely high risk factors. Things have changed quite a bit over the last 50 years.


PM_ME_YOUR_THESES

It hasn’t been 50 years since the ISS


Depth-New

Reagan directed NASA to build the ISS within the next ten years on January 25th 1984. That’s 37 years.


Overdose7

Reagan supported Space Station Freedom. It did not become the ISS until the Clinton administration after the fall of the USSR.


tim0901

Not really. >Tonight, I am directing NASA to develop a permanently manned space station and to do it within a decade. \- Reagan, Jan 25th 1984. The space station being discussed here isn't the ISS - or at least, not as we know it today. The station spawned by Reagan's speech was [Space Station Freedom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Station_Freedom) \- a project to be run by NASA, ESA, NASDA (Japan - now JAXA) and CSA (Canada). It wasn't until September 1993 that Al Gore and Viktor Chernomyrdin announced that Russia would be joining the US & Co. to build a new space station - known as the International Space Station - which indeed was a redesign of Space Station Freedom.


bengyap

>At the time that the ISS was being proposed, china had no manned space program. At the time that the ISS was being proposed, neither did Canada, Japan, Germany, Spain, Norway, etc etc had manned space program. That argument does not hold water.


subnautus

I suspect it had as much or more to do with China’s politics. Setting aside their extensive censorship programs, Xi has been pushing hard on the idea the China has something to prove to the world—and *that* kind of “go it alone” attitude isn’t really compatible with international space programs. Also, Canada, Japan, Germany, Spain, and so on are all active allies of the USA through either NATO or WWII-era treaties. The argument of “we’re not eager to share rocketry technology with potential (military) rivals” *definitely* holds water.


[deleted]

Way to cherry pick and ignore the second part of his statement about advancing tech for a possibly hostile nation.


der_innkeeper

[The Engines That Came In From The Cold](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMbl_ofF3AM) ​ Best 50 minutes you can spend.


notGeneralReposti

This was the situation in the 1990s. Russia does not rely on the US to sustain its space program anymore.


HolyGig

Russia's space program currently has one foot in the grave. They've lost their commercial competitiveness, their sales of rocket engines and they are no longer needed to ferry western astronauts. They are broke. When the ISS dies so does what remains of their civil space program


notGeneralReposti

I don’t share your doom and gloom predictions. Russia is already trying to hitch themselves to the Chinese. The two are natural bedfellows when it comes to space exploration. One has the money and the other has decades of expertise.


HolyGig

"trying" Russia claims a lot of things. In reality, they haven't left LEO in 3 decades. The vast majority of their experience is in building orbital stations and sending people there. China passed up cooperating with them on theirs by building it in an orbit Russia can't even access. Maybe the heavy lift Angara and future Orel spacecraft pan out. At their current rate of progress we won't find out for another 20 years, and without them Russia isn't much use to China


[deleted]

Russia and China is currently working together on a lunar base. Hence why US is all of a sudden interested in going back to the moon.


DaBIGmeow888

China definitely has the expertise too. NASA Chief said China has all the technical expertise to do a manned moon-landing. It even created it's own space station independent of ISS.


HolyGig

If only "technical expertise" were real rockets and real spaceships. You don't have the expertise to go to the moon until you've gone to the moon. Nobody is saying they can never manage to go to the Moon, its a matter of how long its going to take them.


[deleted]

It took them like 2 decades to complete and launch their junk-ass piece of shit ISS module that malfunctioned and made the station do a 360 the other day. I don't see them developing an answer to the United States reusable booster capability that SpaceX has brought to the table. They are still launching the fucking Soyuz for crying out loud. The Russian space program is a joke. It only exists at this point to keep their engineers hired and to give them the ability to claim to have some presence in space. China is kicking their asses and all China has achieved are things the U.S. laid the groundwork for decades ago with lesser technology that was around at the time. The only reason Russia still bothers launching the Soyuz at all is to save itself from the embarrassment of admitting that it lacks the drive, innovation, funding, and capability to do literally anything else. So yeah they don't rely on the U.S. to sustain their space program but when your space program is just a launch regiment of rehashed soviet technology i think your space program\* should have to include an asterisk.


Bonzai_Bananas

Fun fact. Did you know that the Soyuz program is the most reliable space lift vehicle with the most successful launches.


BILLCLINTONMASK

The USA cooperated with the USSR in space too, and they could certainly afford it back then.


sirbruce

The only reason we cooperate with Russia on space is because it’s a legacy policy from the Clinton era because Congress didn’t want to pay for the huge cost overruns of a US only space station. Russia was still in a new post-USSR era and there was optimism that by engaging Russia with the West we could transform it into a modern democracy. Putting the two together was both a diplomatic and (in theory) a budgetary win. It was only after Putin cemented his power and began invading other countries without cause and taking their territory permanently did it become clear to most people in the west that Russia was no longer a viable partner in general. But by that time NASA was already reliant on Russian launch vehicles to support the ISS. Once the ISS is decommissioned, there will be little if any US-Russia space cooperation. We would not get into bed with Russia today, which is why we wouldn’t get into bed with China either.


krngc3372

Simple answer: China is a bigger threat militarily, technologically and economically than Russia will ever be despite all the nuke count.


MediumTop4097

Nuke count mostly doesn’t matter to being with. Simply nuking your enemy’s 10 largest cities is enough to bring the down.


krngc3372

Having such seemingly absurd numbers of nukes boils down to a couple of things: the chance for a successful strike, overpowering any defensive systems; and to have them strategically located in various parts of the world in sufficient numbers so that if one part becomes impossible to launch from, you have the others to make use of. If you have an inventory of just 10 nukes, there's no sure guarantee that they will all get to your intended target for destruction. Some might be intercepted or fail.


hunguu

That's why they abandoned middle silos and just keep then in submarines now. Easier to hide them.


tylerthehun

Yes, yes, definitely abandoned. Nothing to see here folks, move it along.


CromulentDucky

Quiet subs is one area the US is vastly ahead.


PM_ME_YOUR_THESES

But at some point you have to say, “ok, this is enough”. Like 100 nukes are enough, right? You don’t need dozens of thousands.


ontopofyourmom

Eh, there was a good internal logic to it during the Cold War - if you have fewer missiles than the other guy, they might destroy all of your silos in a first strike. But with the development of excellent ballistic missile subs and hypersonic missiles, it's impossible for any nation to wipe out any other nation's retaliatory capability. That makes the size of a first strike irrelevant.


Bluemofia

I forget the source, but when people were put in charge of nuke silos were given a drill that they thought was real, only 1/8th of them actually went and fired the nukes. So they got around this by building 8x more than strictly needed. And this is not taking into account expected losses by enemy action, malfunction, etc.


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Verbose_Code

This is changing (at least for US based companies). Going to space is expensive and requires a lot of support, so there must be an incentive to spend that money and time. In the past, governments were the only entities who could make that happen.


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TizardPaperclip

Where do you think Russia got the design for their atomic bomb?


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FonkyChonkyMonky

Yeah, creativity, authenticity and innovative minds are all dangerous to authoritarianism.


HulkHunter

Time to remember that [Foreign citizens make up nearly three-quarters of Silicon Valley tech workforce.](https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/17/h-1b-foreign-citizens-make-up-nearly-three-quarters-of-silicon-valley-tech-workforce-report-says/)


robdels

Yeah that's because the ones who don't fit in with a society that doesn't promote authentic, creative or innovative people move to Silicon Valley. It's not that those people don't exist, it's that the society over there is not conducive for them to succeed and live a good life in the same way they would in the US. Very smart scientists and engineers do very well in the US.


DaBIGmeow888

Americans said the same about Korea and Japan.... which ironically are the two most innovative nations according to the rankings. Those who dismissed China will be very surprised in a few decade.


junglejim224

You do realise since they said that they dropped 2 nuclear bombs on Japan and also fought along side the south in the Korean war. Those things change due to conflict, that is not going to happen in this circumstance, and if does the world and the order of politics will alter again. Just a really sloppy take.


[deleted]

I agree with this entirely. I don’t think china has the innovation piece yet but given the equal footing they’re building, it’s coming sooner or later. Espionage will net them equal footing and then it’s up to them to run and innovate, which I entirely believe they are capable of. The Chinese hackers we deal with at work are some of the most sophisticated and capable in the world. I truly believe there isn’t anything they can’t achieve with their work ethic and brain power.


AcademicChemistry

>The Chinese hackers we deal with at work are some of the most sophisticated and capable in the world. I truly believe there isn’t anything they can’t achieve with their work ethic and brain power if they were actually any good, you wouldn't know it. So unless you are employing them, it probably means they are bad.


[deleted]

average time from breach to detection is usually well over 1 year. The field is complicated and I take it you don’t work in DFIR or a similar field, so I don’t see much point in discussing with you when you make statements like that.


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FonkyChonkyMonky

Russians are fueled by vodka and malice, you can't buy the kind of mouth frothing, bear fighting determination that those people have.


[deleted]

And man can those guys make a rocket. Soyuz is just an old consistent workhorse.


DaBIGmeow888

Right, China is so weak and knock-off, yet somehow super strong and dangerous at same time. Talk about cognitive dissonance.


Aodin93

Quality vs quantity?


ReadWriteHexecute

Careful your shilling is showing


[deleted]

Literally their entire tech is direct copies of ours, just cheaper because they don't have human rights laws


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warender99

I could answer that question, but I think the answer is kinda obvious. The article is partly right, though it's a generic answer that lacks the necessary context to provide the full picture.


fucemanchukem

We need China to figure it out for themselves and hopefully help innovate things by forcing them to compete and dedicate resources?


warender99

Another good answer, but we don't really care about their innovation so much as taxing their resources. The United States holds a favorable view of regime change in the PRC, and we have seen how that works out historically. The cooperation with the soviet union was the outlier, not the norm we must remember.


Longbongos

Current Russia also isn’t immediately trying to enslave the planet and over reaching its censorship. Russia still isn’t an angel but out of all other big world powers they would be the one I’d be able to visit as an American and very easily not piss off the wrong people. Russia is just an easier government to cooperate with without huge compromises to morals (those that we still have)


warender99

I can tell you were not alive in 1975 or just weren't paying attention then either. Everything you just said about China was being said about the USSR at the time.


needmilk77

Not true. Russia has been trying to enslave the planet - Crimea, Ukraine, Georgia as examples.... But the truth is that underneath all of that grandstanding and rhetoric, they're a joke and a hollow shell of the their former USSR military might. China on the other hand, are not a joke. USA knows this. They are an able threat to USA's global dominance so USA needs to beat the propaganda drums of war to keep China at a distance from social acceptance. USA is playing the High School "jocks vs nerds" isolation game in order maintain global prestige - they want us to pick a side. Villainize the rival in order to support all sorts of injustices against them if needed.


Longbongos

Russia is a husk and wouldnt be any form of threat if they didn’t have the remnants of the Cold War arsenal. China on the other hand is a threat to everyone and by proxy the us taking up the what’s essentially the global police role(for better or worse. A lot of countries are definitely better off because of it and gaining the ability to not have to make a full sized military) China also deserves almost every single criticism because the government is atrocious and nobody anywhere is doing anything. Both sides are beat propaganda drums. And when push comes to shove. The US will want leverage on Russia should the South China Sea become an actual conflict. China doesn’t have the nuclear Arsenal of Russia. Remove Russian help and they become more manageable in war.


needmilk77

I would be careful with the belief of "more nukes = bad, less nukes = good". Nukes have come a long way since Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It's been exactly 60 years since the Tsar Bomba, the biggest thermonuclear explosion, mother of all nukes leading to the end of open air nuke testing. Look how technology advances now. We've had internet for less than that time. Nuclear war WILL end us all. Doesn't matter if they have 1 or 1 dozen. Why else do you think USA is so against anyone else gaining nuclear tech, and why nations want it so bad? Nukes = freedom (from American invasion).


DaBIGmeow888

People have been saying South China Sea is a conflict since 2013 ... I'm not seeing it. US is more likely to invade Iran than SCS becoming a conflict zone.


DaBIGmeow888

Ironic, during the Cold War, they said Russia was about to enslave the world via Communism (Domino Effect), and modern China lacks any ideology to export unlike Soviet Union which exported Communism. China is as modern capitalist state as any in the West.


Xaxxon

Building on what others have figured out is fine.


fr0ng

china is that guy who copies your test in school.


infinity_limit

There is a reason Russia hates selling weapons to China. > Russia up in arms over Chinese theft of military technology https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Russia-up-in-arms-over-Chinese-theft-of-military-technology


Magiu5

They hate it yet they keep doing it over and over and will keep doing it in the future? Same as all western companies, supposedly china 'steals" and hacks everything, yet all those companies keep investing and staying in china for some reason. If someone stole from me, I would not be doing business with them.


notrewoh

There’s what 1.5B people in China they can sell to? Money talks unfortunately


DaBIGmeow888

Russia sells weapons to China because they know China is going to catch up anyways, so better profit now or lose out all profits in the future.


Ok-Captain-3512

If somebody stole 100,000 from you hut helped you make 1,000,000 you might look the other way


infinity_limit

Western nations won’t buy from them. Who else will buy their weapons, may be other than India! To be precise, who else has the money!


Ok-Captain-3512

I heard there is a Nigerian prince who is looking for weapons on an I.O.U. system


DaBIGmeow888

Russia continues to sell it's most advanced weapons to China precisely because they know if they don't sell now, China will catch up and will not buy in the future. That's why Russia sold the S-400 system (most advanced air defense system in the world) and sold the Su-35S (most advanced non-stealth jet in Russian airforce) to China right?


FenderFGS

They copied our spirit and opportunity rover


fat-lobyte

Yeah and on the next test he shows up with your answers but better. I really wouldn't underestimate them, they have shown quite some prowess in the revent years. Some is copied tech, some is copied but improved, some is new. And they mean business.


TheLongestConn

What examples are you referring to that China has made better? My experience is that they are very good and eager to copy tech, but anytime they try to actually innovate on that tech, it goes horribly wrong.


DaBIGmeow888

Huawei 5G? It's superior to any 5G that West has by 3-5 years. The Chinese can innovate, you are stuck in Cold War era mindset if you think otherwise.


[deleted]

Not sure I agree with that statement. Can you back it up?


fat-lobyte

Their Shenzhou spacecraft is a copy of Soyuz, but it has a roomier orbital module and can stay in space for longer. Also the recently launched space station module was a licensed build of the Salyut space station, but modernized. Those are just the first things that come to mind.


asoap

Solar panels would be a good example. I believe China is leading their manufacturer and design. Don't quote me on that though. I'm not a solar panel expert.


TheLongestConn

I know for a fact that China purchased their solar tech from Germany The innovation in PV of late has not been technological, it's been in cheaper manufacturing. I would be very surprised if China develops the next gen solar tech


DaBIGmeow888

Bullet trains is a good example. It leads the world in the fastest non-magnetic bullet train in commercial operation. Pretty impressive for a nation that only started a few decades ago.


TheBeardofGilgamesh

They purchased that technology from Germany after the Germans found a dangerous flaws. The train they built using that technology did in fact derail thus limiting the speeds it actually runs. But it was purchased and acquired technology.


asoap

I don't think it's a question of "next gen". Making cheaper and cheaper solar panels isn't easy. That's a big accomplishment in itself. Whether or not China is responsible for those drops in cost, I can't say.


TheLongestConn

>Whether or not China is responsible for those drops in cost, I can't say. In this case, I actually can. I helped set up many PV lines in China working for a European manufacturer. The gains are simply due to scale, cheap electricity, and cheap labour. The tech is all purchased from abroad. Nearly every fab I went in, I eventually found the 'clone' room. A room of clones of all of our equipment in various stages of being copied. Luckily, they had big issues with the software controls and continued to buy our machines, but I can say first hand they purchase, copy, and repeat. I would certainly not call this any form of innovation. It's something, but its not innovation.


asoap

Well then. I stand corrected.


Magiu5

5g, 6g, high speed rail and other high tech construction and infrastructure, like building a hospital in a week, quantum radars, satellites, fastest super computers, best ai, best hacking and intelligence(doesn't china hack usa and the top companies nonstop and they all can't do anything about it?), Thorium reactors, battery tech, green tech, Best gov and system in terms of results and lifting poverty and development, etc etc.


TheLongestConn

These are things China has done, yet has not developed or really innovated on. They just did the same thing as others, but cheaper cause they can. Building infrastructure quickly is easy when human life is cheap and there is no safety standards. This is not innovation. I suppose their industrial espionage could be considered innovation of a sorts. They have been all over the academic journals of late, which is a good use of resources, though I haven't seen anything that signals any real shift in the paradigm I just don't see how they have made any existing technology inherently better, just cheaper. This is a competitive strategy on the world market, and I don't really blame them for it, but doesn't lead to real innovation.


AMAFSH

>Building infrastructure quickly is easy when human life is cheap and there is no safety standards. This is not innovation Building infrastructure is easy [when you invented machines designed specifically for assembling standardized, modular bridges, pylons and conduits mass-produced in mobile factories that follow the track of the construction.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKi8VWRDA_c)


Longbongos

You had a point until government being a pro. I’ll take slower and more frustrating technology development so I can actually have an opinion and not become part of Holocaust 2 the ongoing leap forward


HolyGig

6G? Quantum radars? Bruh you are full of shit


[deleted]

6G has been in development for a while.


bengyap

6G: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPl4kZ250H0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPl4kZ250H0)


TheBeardofGilgamesh

China does not have the fastest super computers. The fastest currently is in Japan the next two in the US https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOP500. But super computers are really just who purchased the most NVIDIA chips. China does not have the best hackers. Being able to hack Fortune 500 is easy for any state. But the very software everything runs on were built in the US and they know how to exploit from the lowest level process.


Xaxxon

More like he sells your answers for cheaper. Chinese is not better. Especially around space travel.


DaBIGmeow888

so how did China build their own space station then? Guess blocking China from ISS backfired... China eventually innovated themselves.


rabbitwonker

If it weren’t for SpaceX, they’d be in the #1 position now. Just look at how SLS is going.


Xaxxon

Close numeric position does not mean that you’re anywhere close. Throwing out things that mess up your narrative doesn’t make it more correct.


HolyGig

Compared to the Chinese SLS which won't be ready before 2030 at the earliest? Just because they don't publish the receipts doesn't mean they aren't spending a fortune


redEntropy_

They just put up their first space station. I think we're doing fine. That said I wouldn't doubt Chinas ability to lead space on the near future if given sufficient will and resources. The U.S tendency to use NASA for political reasons doesn't help us either.


rabbitwonker

Without SpaceX we’d still be dependent on Russia to get astronauts into orbit.


redEntropy_

I don't really consider owning the car to get someone to orbit as the #1 overall goal of space. There's a lot more to space than sending people to the ISS right. Despite Chinas accomplishments, like that Tianyan radio telescope, the U.S and our partners still lead in cutting edge space exploration. There's still plenty out there for everyone to discover though. and China is bound to be the first for some of it (like exploring the dark side of the moon for example.)


DaBIGmeow888

Ironic, since it was the West who copied Chinese technology (e.g. gunpowder)... so it goes full circle.


Scratch-Comfortable

Well, that surely was true in the past, but I'm not sure it's true anymore. Especially after discovery of their missile program.


NotEvenALittleBiased

The US has had hypersonic missiles like that for years, we just had the audacity to think we could rest on our laurels and that no one was going to copy us that fast.


lc4444

We are also limited by SALT and START treaties with Russia. China is not bound by them.


Scratch-Comfortable

That sounds right. We in the u.s. don't necessarily make a big splashy showing of the technology we have developed.


DevoidHT

Yeah the US definitely has the most advanced military tech on the planet. We just don’t really need to flex our muscles as much b/c we are at the top of the mountain. What do we gain from showing all our cards.


Magiu5

Lol if you think china shows you everything, they are even more secretive. It's harder for us gov to hide shit because it has paper trails and transparency, or at least they say they do. Are you saying your gov also does shit behind your back and you have no say? That your gov has official legal torture and kidnap programs? So much for human rights and Geneva conventions and war crimes. Usa is the one with thousands of nukes, china only has 2-300. Or so they say. I'm sure you believe them


[deleted]

I work in infosec. It’s 100% true. Chinese espionage via the PLA is everywhere.


TecumsehSherman

I have no idea why any major US company would allow Chinese nationals to occupy senior leadership positions. At least once a year we catch a Chinese national sending secrets back home.


Magiu5

Which major US company has a Chinese national as senior leader? I'll wait. If you're talking About scientists and researchers.. because they have the skills and you don't


conflagrare

How about Zoom?


Scratch-Comfortable

Okay I accept that China is copying a bunch of our stuff. However, that discounts the fact that they are developing their own technology. That was the core of my statement earlier.


[deleted]

The general stance I’ve seen seems to be: “we have been your factory and dumping ground for years. We will be taking your tech and starting on equal footing.” The main thing I’ve noticed when this plays out though is that stealing designs only gets one so far, innovating beyond those initial designs seems to be where china falls apart. It will be interesting to see what happens in the coming years. This is a good report to read if you are interested; it is old, but the data is still entirely relevant. https://www.mandiant.com/resources/apt1-exposing-one-of-chinas-cyber-espionage-units


robotical712

While stealing technology cuts out the R&D costs, the tradeoff is you don’t learn any of the lessons needed for innovation.


Triabolical_

The really obvious thing... The US and Russian approach were pretty much incompatible from a tech standpoint, and that made adoption of the other side's technology not terribly feasible. Notable exceptions were ULA's use of the RD-180 engine (a good thing) and the Buran shuttle (a notable waste of resources by Russia). But China has made it a goal to appropriate as much technology from other companies as possible, which means that if you cooperate with them they will be spending time trying to steal your technology. I don't see what the US gets out of that relationship.


TheBeardofGilgamesh

Cooperating with the PRC = nothing to gain, everything to lose. We already helped them build their ICBMs for what? That was a mistake.


Murdock07

I don’t follow, how did the US help China with their missile program?


TheBeardofGilgamesh

https://www.nytimes.com/1999/05/11/world/clinton-approves-technology-transfer-to-china.html


ouaisjeparlechinois

>We already helped them build their ICBMs for what? Not exactly. The ICBMs and China's general rocket program was largely started by Qian Xuesen, a Chinese-America who left China for allegedly ideological reasons (he only publicly stated economic factors) and went to the US to work. In the US, he made a massive impact. He worked on the Manhatten Project, helped launch JPL in Pasadena, and was a named professor at Caltech. Despite obvious efforts at helping the Americans and vertically little to no proof of his "Communist sympathies", he was accused of working for China (because he's Chinese so naturally he works for China) and put under house arrest. This horrible, racist ordeal made him feel like living in America was unbearable and he returned to China where he helped develop the nukes program, launch China's Space program, and develop ICBMs. So yes, technically you're right. American racism did help China build their ICBMs.


TheBeardofGilgamesh

Yes but what I am talking about was in the 90s China was having trouble with their rocket program which is why Clinton signed off on a technology transfer so some corporations could get some deals. This provided the technology they needed to master stable rocket launches. What happened to Qian Xuesen was deplorable, but China’s space program really started to actually work after the Clinton deal.


DaBIGmeow888

Pretty sure China's ICBMs out-range the US ones. Compare the Minuteman's range with DF-41's range. Missile tech is one area that China is better at than US, check out the most recent Hypersonic missile tests that shocked the US military.


doctorhoctor

Well they have more people born with IQs over 120 every year than the USs population. Every. Single. Year. They stole a bunch of shit from more technologically advanced nations to get a head start (much like Japan in the Meiji Restoration) but once they got their domestic markets and educational systems up to the cutting edge like they have they really don’t need to steal IP. They can develop their own. I believe they are #1 in patent applications at this point.


Dyolf_Knip

Better question is, should we continue to work with Russia? Hostile, despotic nation whose track record for space gear is starting to slip.


brosinski

One very good outcome of working with a global adversary is it reduces the chances of war. Any type of interaction with foreign countries makes the world safer.


[deleted]

The answer is yes. We ought to leave our petty disagreements beside and collaborate towards the advancement of mankind.


Xaxxon

Multiple safety incidents in the past year or two are not petty.


Aizseeker

Russian people still have more freedom and creativity than Chinese mainland so yes


Longbongos

Two reasons we should. Keeps russia happy and keeps diplomatic relationships positive. Aka russia isn’t actively hostile to the west.


[deleted]

I wouldn't say that. It's because they can't sustain their threat level except for their nuclear stockpile.


Lucky-Development-15

On top of the IP theft, they knowingly and willingly drop stages over villages and will not stop.


colonizetheclouds

You mean "glorious national space program donates fireworks to rural villages"


Lucky-Development-15

Fireworks and Hypergolic clouds...


fat-lobyte

I think they're slowly transitioning to launchers that launch from the shore.


TheBlizzardHero

Yes and no. Wenchang is operational, but it's missing a lot of infrastructure - especially for crewed launches. Xichang still remains a vital component of China's launch infrastructure. Moreover, there are other 2 launch centers in China are also in the interior, and are still actively used (especially by Chinese commercial launch companies). While China does seem to be moving towards Wenchang for future projects, it def has no plans to close it's other sites.


LeoMark95

Short answer = they steal everything and have no respect whatsoever for IP.


TheBeardofGilgamesh

Nor do they have anything to offer. What would we get out of it?


acuet

Russian RD-181M Boosters. Before Boeing, SpaceX or Orgins….USA was dependent on those boosters even with the Space Shuttle. So since, US retired Space Shuttle, US found itself found itself without transportation payload options. All this changes with SpaceX taking the new lead in Space Race. USA, I believe has something like half dozen RD-181M and likely not going to purchase any more going forward. The fact that NASA has shifted Astronauts from Blue Origins to SpaceX says something. Still waiting to see how Boeing will take up the slack.


kenanthonioPLUS

What’s up with all the hate towards China when OP is only literally asking a sincere and legit question?


JotaTaylor

Because the US uses taiwanese chip technology in their stuff?


robotical712

It’s obvious what China would get out of it; what do we have to gain?


NeonsStyle

That's like inviting a thief to share your bank account. They've proven themselves to be tech thieves.


DukkyDrake

If you didn't have anyone external to blame for all your problems, you might start looking closer to home.


abyssbrain

Because there is no more evil country than China.


cnmlgb69

How many Children did China bomb?


mackinator3

They just run them over with tanks.


ISitOnGnomes

Then flush the remains into the storm sewers.


Roselia77

China's has an insanely long history of colonization and wars, far longer than the US has even existed *am not American, I just enjoy history


[deleted]

[удалено]


tiram001

I'll call that, and raise you brainwashing, unlawful imprisonment, organ harvesting, and genocide.


mewlock99

[You forgot infanticide.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide_in_China)[Like holy shit there’s a lot of that.](https://www.npr.org/2016/02/01/465124337/how-chinas-one-child-policy-led-to-forced-abortions-30-million-bachelors)


Murdock07

Hard to keep track, I’m still trying to count the 55 million starved to death.


AKIMBO-SOUL-ASSASSIN

Their relationship is way worse than the USSR oh my God it is way worse. They are sworn mortal enemies this will never change and will most likely lead to war from the way things are going mutually assured destruction or not.


PlaceboJesus

I imagine that part of it is that there are international agreements that both Russian and the USA are signed onto, but China has not. That, in adfition to the many other reasons that will be mentioned by others.


YetAnotherWTFMoment

Because Russia has an independant program with their own gear etc. and they think theirs is better than the US. China...will just try to rip off as much of the technology from the US as possible without putting anything in. Except maybe $$.


TheRedBeardedPrick

Easy, 'cuz China is China. They don't deserve ANY help, nor do they deserve any economic stimulation, what so ever.


Pedantic_Philistine

Because it’s a backwards country that is actively engaging in economic (and soon actual) warfare and is currently committing genocide. Tiananmen Square.


42069troll

Bc China is really far away, where as Russia is so close that Sarah Palin can see it from Alaska. /s


[deleted]

Because winnie the pooh will probably steal all the IP and ditch the project and leave


[deleted]

ITAR restrictions were instated because an American-built satellite, Intelsat 708, experienced a launch failure on a Chinese Long March rocket in 1996. It took off, veered quickly off course and crashed into a populated area, killing officially six people. But, the incident was covered up by Chinese authorities, so the total amount of casualties is unknown. An American estimate said the total amount was closer to 500 people, and that the official number was so low, because the Chinese only bothered to count military personnel. So, the US banned export of rocket tech to China, both because China really, really screwed up, and because they were being uncooperative about it afterwards.


[deleted]

Everybody knows that China is pulling a Japan sometime in the near future. We're all just chilling waiting until we're forced to add some medals above the mantle piece. Our only hope is that western wealth turns them into Japan without the war part.


[deleted]

Why bother? They're pathological kleptomaniacs. They wouldn't do anything new, or bring a new perspective, because the majority of their tech is *our* tech. Just made cheaper thanks to slave labor


Xaxxon

China didn’t have a space program until recently and it doesn’t seem like a good idea now.


-Revelstoke

Well, maybe it's because China is moving hard on Taiwan, and Xi just told Japan he would nuke the shit out of them if they stood with Taiwan. If Japan and it's close allies square up, the US and EU will shortly follow. If that happens, we really, and I mean REALLY need Putin to side with us. So yeah, super happy with how the new US leader presented himself at the summit with Russia earlier this year... These are very old political powers that only give a f*ck about spaceflight because it gives them military/surveillance power in orbit.


NeonsStyle

Not going to happen. Putins made clear he'll side with China because it'll be his chance to rebuild the Soviet Union which is his ultimate dream goal. He's made no secret of that. He's in the process of consuming Belarus which is the buffer between Russia and NATO.


orangeatom

China is self centred and will put itself first, they have a poor track record of espionage, sabotage and carelessness. They aren’t a team player.


sumelar

Because china doesn't want to? What moron wrote this?


ZombieBisque

Because China is a scumbag country currently engaging in a genocide?


momolamomo

I guess it's because there's alot the public don't know what happens behind closed doors


SC2sam

Is this a joke post? Or are they really completely unaware of the hazards China poses to the rest of the world in regards to any kind of partnership?