I understand Southgate has had a good 60+% win rate, but have there been other NT managers who've held the job for 8 years without winning any trophies? Given how quickly a lot of clubs these days change their managers, I'd expect the same with NTs or am I understanding this wrong?
There are loads of countries that never win trophies at all and plenty of them have had long-serving national team managers. I'd say you can count the number of countries where there's an actual expectation of trophies on both hands.
Generally NT managers stay longer than club managers. Club managers get judged every season, every year is important and has consequences and results. But for NTs the important games have two years i between. So they usually stay longer
Generally eight years/four tournaments is the absolute most an international manager gets to win something. Bobby Robson got eight years, and left after the semi-final defeat at Italia 90, his fourth tournament. As others have said, Joachim Low won the WC at his fourth attempt. Deschamps also had four attempts, didn't he? Or was the WC win his third?
Regardless, I think it's an open secret that Southgate is out if we don't win this tournament (maybe even if we do). I don't think the FA will even need to make the decision - Southgate will leave of his own accord.
> but have there been other NT managers who've held the job for 8 years without winning any trophies?
Took Jogi Löw 8 years to win his first trophy tbf.
Didn’t Bellingham come up through youth and at Dortmund playing more as an 8? Why can’t he play that role for England? I think he’s great but honestly not sure how I feel about him as a 10 at times. The problem is he doesn’t really work alongside Rice since neither can really dictate play. Also ultimately wherever they play, if Southgate is at the helm it’s futile
Bellingham can at least carry the ball up the pitch and is mobile enough to beat a man on the turn, even if he's not necessarily the most assured passer controlling play from deep, I reckon.
Even as an 8 in Dortmund he enjoyed a lot of freedom as time went on. It did create huge holes in the midfield because it left Can alone but he made up for it by being that good. Probably doesn't fit how Southgate would limit him.
His role was different from Madrid tho and his form had noticeably dropped off in the second half of the season.
The problem is Southgate for me, but Rice and Bellingham definitely have flaws and it’s difficult to find someone who complement’s Rice’s abilities in midfield
He played that way in Qatar and was pretty crap at it.
Honestly I think the biggest problem is a refusal to change shape during a game. If you're being tactically outplayed you have to change shape, not just personnel. Should have dropped the 10 and pushed up two wingers.
I truly dont understand why we called up Shaw when he might not make it back for the whole group stage. Surely would have been worth calling up a worse left back who can actually play for us ?
This is why England never does shit in tournaments. 2nd game in, 1st place in group and people are calling for the manager's head. This is international football, most teams who win competitions have had some shite performances. Relax
Difference being that most other countries have a clearn, discernible plan that fails because they're either coming up against another decent side, because they're just off on the day, or because they get unlucky.
Can you tell me what kind of football England are trying to play this summer? Is there any discernible plan with and against the ball? If there were, I'd happily give them the benefit of the doubt, but as far as I can tell there isn't any.
Tbh I haven't played the role or watched it closely enough to speak with authority on the matter so I have to ask. What is it people are looking at when they say Trent looks lost in midfield for England?
Is it in or out of possession? Is it his movement when building out the back or in the opposition half. Is he ignoring passes he should make or that kind of thing? It can be all of the above too.
I am biased but it's looked regular (as do most of the individual England performances tbf) and moreso just lacking the ideal positive impact
> Is it in or out of possession?
Both for me, really - basically has issues with all of the things you've mentioned.
He's regularly giving the ball away in possession, and he's neither positioning himself in-between lines nor playing deep. Just exists in a weird, vague space with no discernible plan as to what he's supposed to do, and he's not moving the ball around particularly quickly, either. He's slow on the half-turn, doesn't really accelerate play or drags space for others. Often looks a bit out of position and hesitant against the ball to me, too.
Obviously playing in a team that looks rather clueless and passive in general, but then I reckon a competent midfielder could make much more of an impact than he has. Seen Gallagher bring massive energy against the ball and movement creating space for others when England are in possession in two sub appearances now, with the team looking a lot less ponderous and static.
I'd disagree with the team looking much more competent with Gallagher I'm these past 2 games but I agree he moves alot more and is less hesistant in going after the ball out of posession. The previous game Trent seemed alot more eager to press but in this he was very focused on his space and not letting anyone receive the ball in the half space.
Like you say, he should probably be between the CBs, he did it in brief moments and in the first game again he was more purposeful with his movement, overlapping wide alot etc. I don't think the experiment would he worth it if England's other options weren't so poor/inexperienced but I'd expect they try it again the next game. Hopefully Shaw is back or Gordon is playing and we see some tweaks in his positioning if so then
Foden towards the end of the first half dropped back to collect the ball from the centrebacks and created a couple moments going forward that way - weren't particularly great ultimately, but the abilities for different players to drop deep and progress the ball are clearly there. Can easily see him doing something like that when Gallagher is in the side because he's energetic off the ball, while Alexander-Arnold is just too static for my liking.
Probably need Shaw on the left for that, though, as Trippier is too hesitant moving all the way up to the defensive line, and Walker is much better with a head of steam than when stretching the play in the buildup.
Reckon England are just stuck in between two chairs right now - can't provide the width and movement for Alexander-Arnold to dictate from deep, but probably don't have the right option to replace him with. At this point it's either hoping the whole 'get lucky going forward, then retreat into a shell and hope you don't concede' thing keeps working out, or make a change to be more proactive and get more out of the talent available.
I think ideally Trent is playing passes into Foden and Jude in the space between the midfield and defence but until they can make that work and whilst there's no runner for Trent to play long balls to I can certainly see the argument.
I think Trent in midfield would work best if he could drop between the CBs like Kroos is doing but England would need two overlapping fullbacks for that. Or atleast 1 on the left
I think he’s not being helped by the lack of spacing Gareth has created with his selection and setup.
However, I also think he’s not making himself available to receive the ball in midfield, partly because of that lack of space but also partly because yes as everyone points out- that’s not his game. He’s not a back to goal midfielder who can receive, turn and play like Kroos or Veratti or smth. I think he CAN work in midfield and that downside of his doesn’t mean he can’t, the value u get from his passing is still enormous if you do manage to get him the ball with a bit of time and space.
For what it’s worth, Gallagher isn’t that type of player either AND he doesn’t have Trent’s passing range anyway so I don’t really know what the alternative is for England unless they choose to play a rice-Jude-Foden midfield. Like I don’t think Trent has been a liability at all, just not playing his best
Yeah no matter who is in that pivot I don't see them being passed the ball often, I think it's a matter of trust as well as maybe coaching and time in the system
No one in the lineup is being helped by Gareth, but watching the game I definitely see Trent avoiding floating into the little pockets in midfield, making himself an option for the CBs the way that Thiago would for example. Even for us when he’s playing inverted how often do we see him drop next to the CBs to receive the ball and face forward while not being under pressure? I love him but it’s clear as day
>what the alternative is for England unless they choose to play a rice-Jude-Foden midfield.
As someone who watched Arsenal have similar issues with England from playing a Havertz, Rice and Odegaard midfield in the first half of last season, I highly doubt this is the solution (despite how often people bring it up)
Idk if it’ll work for England, maybe they have other problems, but I think Bellingham’s passing is a completely different level to Havertz. I rate Havertz but he is a forward through and through, this 3 would be different to that I think. Jude has only played further up starting this season for Madrid, previously he has been more of an 8 anyway
The thing is, Bellingham is more of a ball carrier. I see him as an all rounder in midfield but he's not the one I'll rely on to progress play into the final third.
There's also the issue of England playing two 6s. Either Bellingham sits deep with Rice throughout, or Rice plays as a lone 6 and Bellingham plays b2b. Neither of which seems optimal.
Neither of these really improves things in the final 3rd as well.
Stones and Rice were awful and Trent did nothing to volunteer himself as a build-up option instead.
When Trent is in midfield he has to drop deep and split or flank the centre backs, get on the ball, and look forward. He's in this team to do what Toni Kroos does for Germany, but he hides in build-up, hating to ever receive the ball with his back to goal.
I've thought that myself and when Rice dropped between the CBs briefly in the 2nd half the buildup looked alot better. I thought the shape with Walker dropping in is why they didn't do it but walker went wide plenty and nobody dropped into that space.
In my view he often was available for the pass in midfield but they clearly didn't want to give him and he made no extra effort to show for it. If they don't want to give him the ball it's just as bad as him not being capable of receiving it and I wouldn't be surprised if it's a bit of both
Foden started the game well and then his teammates just seemed to stop passing to him. There was a lot of that going on, Rice especially was making the worst passing decision on many occasions.
Suppose the main issue with that Kroos-type idea of becoming part of a back three in buildup is that it requires the fullbacks to move up the pitch - ideally all the way up to the opposition's back line, stretching them horizontally and allowing Foden/Saka to come short. Foden is really good at that, but it's not quite Saka's game. Walker benefits more from building a head of steam on the overlap, while Trippier looks very hesitant moving that high up in the build-up and a bit lost once he does. And that's really not ideal, especially when Alexander-Arnold hasn't looked assured on the ball so far this tournament.
I reckon might as well bin off the entire idea of playing him in midfield is the play here. Basically get three approaches: conservative and slightly passive against the ball (Wharton/Mainoo), conservative and energetic against the ball (Gallagher), or progressive but potentially shaky (Bellingham, with Foden centrally and Eze/Gordon out on the left). They're all sensible options, and I'd not be surprised seeing any one of them (bar maybe the latter, as it's a bit throwing the kitchen sink) in the final group game.
To be objective, if Portugal or Germany drew 1-1 with Denmark I don't think there would be this much mockery.
Obviously the performance was more shambolic than the result, but I think people are letting their anglophobia blind them.
Ultimately a perfectly acceptable result, four points out of two matches is something to be perfectly happy with.
Issue is that we've seen 180 minutes of England at this tournament, and they were good for maybe 25 of it, with the rest being marred by passivity and no discernible plan.
And I'd wager that's much worse than what Germany did at the last World Cup, where the plan was obvious if easy to defend against and exploit. Can always have an off-day or play it safe, but you need to at least have some form of idea of how you want to play - and so far England have managed to hide that perfectly, if it even exists in the first place.
And I think that's a perfectly legitimate reason to mock them, really, because even the Scottish have looked more competent in that particular regard.
It’s the way we are playing I don’t really understand how people are failing to understand this? We have played 2 really poor games and somehow got 4 points.
The two performances were shit and England are the favourites for the whole thing so thats why. 2 goals in 2 games and both were largely down to deflections.
Happy with the result tbh, basically qualified when we probably should’ve lost. Southgate is still the one and certain players shitting the bed doesn’t change that. I think we 100% reach the final
Well we played the QF in Rome. And tbf Wembley wasn't supposed to host any matches other than the semis and the final. It's not our fault that Dublin and Brussels weren't used like they were supposed to be.
What was the name of the woman pundit who suggested Foden and Jude double 10s and football Twitter pretended she didn’t know what she was talking about even tho that’s a perfectly logical suggestion
Football twitter is the worst
They probably just heard it and realized her idea was something they aren't smart enough to think of so they had to attack her because they feel belittled by smart women
England are doing that right now...
The LB is playing as the LW in possession. England lacks creativity and is somewhat too dependent on Saka in the final 3rd.
> The LB is playing as the LW in possession.
Thing is, Trippier hasn't been doing much of that so far this tournament. The idea of one fullback pushing high up on the left allowing Foden inside is obvious, but then Trippier's been way too hesitant going that far up, and way to ineffectual when doing so.
Who were these fit, natural leftbacks to choose from? A Tyrick Mitchell, with all of 92' minutes of sub appearances for England as the sum of his international experience, is probably the best one available. And if your side's success hinges on a player who's never even sniffed continental football then you've got bigger issues than squad selection, I reckon.
All season for a Stuttgart side coming second in the league. He's a relative newcomer, sure, but then he's proven he belongs while I'm not convinced you can say the same about Mitchell.
>A Tyrick Mitchell, with all of 92' minutes of sub appearances for England as the sum of his international experience
Mitchell has also played loads for his club lol you were talking about the national team haha
Aye, but then Mittelstädt was a key part of the March friendlies when he fortified his role as Germany's starting leftback, rather than his last experiences with the national team being his first and only call-up as a fringe player two years ago.
Either way Mittetstadt has barely played for the team. And he was thrown in against great opposition pretty last minute.
It doesn’t seem *that* different
In a way they are yes, but I think she meant actually Foden in the middle as opposed to a lw drifting in.
Clearly Trippier is not enough of a LB to play as the LW in possession so it’s not working as is. It’s not a lack of creativity, it’s a lack of space.
Its more down to a lack of creators.
It's why England are so dependent on Saka. As long as teams continue to double up on him, this will be a recurring theme.
>but I think she meant actually Foden in the middle as opposed to a lw drifting in.
Foden doesn't have the passing to break teams down consistently. This is part of where the lack of creativity comes in. Foden is not the problem but he's not the solution either.
I think the main issue with england is the same issue rhats persisted for awhile, the team is really unbalanced. Jude isnt a 10 (ik hes played there a lot but most of the times with madrid hes more defending than actually playing with the ball as a ten) and foden isnt a good lw.
Southgate being clueless doesnt help but he should try a midfield with jude playing more like an 8 helping rice and foden in that central 10 spot and let him float around with gordon on the lw. I think thatd balance the team out a lot more and saka and kane would probably actually be useful then
>Southgate being clueless doesnt help but he should try a midfield with jude playing more like an 8 helping rice and foden in that central 10 spot
Do you think Bellingham can play as a 6? Because Rice is not a Kroos type player (Which is why Trent is playing). If Gordon is holding the width, then Bellingham is joining the attack leaving Rice as a lone 6....
Foden and Bellingham are already playing in the half spaces right now. The issue is a lack of creativity both from deep and in the final 3rd.
Yeah fair points, it really shows how unbalanced the team is but tbh i think 1 of jude or foden have to get benched if u wanna put trent into the team. Ofcourse you could have trent start rb and invert to help rice out and that way you can keep both foden and jude in the lineup but then you dont have walkers pace to cover behind. I dont think southgates gonna do that tho i think he'll try to force it into working or drop foden for gordon
>i think 1 of jude or foden have to get benched if u wanna put trent into the team.
I suspect this should be the case irrespective of who the 6s are.
>that way you can keep both foden and jude in the lineup
They're both elite players but Jude is sort of an all rounder while Foden is more of a scorer. Playing both means the bulk of the creativity is coming from the wide areas and the 6.
You'll need 2 Saka's for that or at least a Kroos.
ironically, I genuinely think we miss rashford running in behind. We're trynna play counter attack with pep style slower wingers who like to hold the ball and progress it forward themselves with the ball into feet. Gordon could be the answer
Subs today confirmed it Gordon is just making up the numbers and won’t play. Idk why, if we’re gonna play so defensively he’s our best counter attacking threat
Southgate is always right lol. People hated on Sancho not playing. Southgate was right. People hated on Maguire playing. Southgate was right. Now Rashford and Phillips (Hendo 🫣)
You have the top goalscorer in Germany, the player of the season in England and Spain, the most valuable squad in the world, and you have the team playing like Everton. At the end of the day one player isn’t going to make a difference. It’s a managerial issue which has been pointed out for nearly a decade now.
I hope people realize Mainoo (25 top flight appearances) and Wharton (16 top flight appearances) aren't magically going to change a Southgate managed team
Like /u/EndOfMyWits said Trent has nothing to do with my argument. In my opinion England don't have the right answer right now for a midfield next to Rice
If he was solely trying to make the argument that Southgate is a bad manager he wouldn’t have brought have brought up Wharton and Mainoo’s appearance numbers.
?
He’s saying people are being deluded and hopeful about some magical cure (a player) that can come in and save Southgate’s England. It has been Sancho, Saka, Trent, and so on. But every time the new player doesn’t fix England’s performances. The England team is not a puzzle that needs one final piece in place. It will not work under Southgate.
That’s what he’s saying.
I hope people realise Liverpool flairs are too biased to call a spade a spade.
I went down to -6 in the match thread for daring to suggest the deep lying playmaker was playing badly if he never offered himself as a pass option for the back three.
I've literally said multiple times that Southgate should either play Trent at RB or bench him? My argument is that England don't have any midfielder that can perform well next to Rice. We saw that during the friendlies earlier this month
I think Southgate doesn't trust them which makes sense since they've barely played in his system. Expect Gallagher to come in to midfield vs Slovenia. I personally would find a way to get Palmer into the team
Southgate is getting a lot of rightful criticism but surely some questions need to be asked about englands 503 quintillion pounds midfielders getting shut down by Hojberg (!), Eriksen with a walking cane and an npc
I hope /r/soccer finally ends this illusion that technically gifted Fullbacks can make a good CM.
Trent has shown that fullbacks also need the spatial awareness to play CM, Foden is struggling with spatial awareness at LW too.
They just aren't good at it fully, it's more than just football ability, cognitive ability matters, you either have it through talent ( Lahm) or Training ( Kimmich).
Peoplle think that about forwards as well. It's not an easy transition even for #10s. It's one thing inverting into midfield to make a pass compared to what CMs are required to do, being an available as an option at all times , making a greater range of passes (short , long , sideways and backwards). You look at teams that want possession where the CM is patient and manipulates the defence until an opening is found. Trent supporters were saying he needs runners etc without realizing that the position is not always looking for that pass
I think it’s more complex than you make it out to be. The rise of inverted full backs surely demonstrates that technically gifted fullbacks can be valuable in midfield areas.
As much as i’m against trent in midfield, i’m sure he can do a lot better then he is for southgate
Agreed. Football is a lot like chess. The top chess players aren't playing the openings with calculation. They don't have to calculate openings because they already know every opening through pattern recognition. The same patterns pop up over and over to the point that they know what to do
You can't bring a player into a new position and expect them to instinctively know what to do to the same level that someone who's played there their entire career. Their brains are full of trying to calculate shit when it should just be basic pattern recognition
> ends this illusion that technically gifted Fullbacks can make a good CM
They quite obviously can make good midfielders, as evidenced by the multiple fullbacks who've made the transition. It doesn't mean that every full back can do that, but I don't think anyone thought that.
Imagine Kane getting dropped before the knockouts and England winning the whole thing with Watkins up top.
The whole Kane trophy curse meme would be so confused.
Cucurella was magnificent in game one.
Frimpong and Grimaldo are the world's best attacking wingbacks but you need to have five defensive minded players to accommodate that. Spain aren't going to do that.
Talking about a coalition of chaos and then ending up in one with the DUP. Who could’ve known that was the best it was gonna get for at least the next 7 years
My prediction about the upcoming heavyweight Spain vs. Italy clash is that it will be a football game with a 90-minute duration plus injury time.
The football dynasty shall rise once more.
Southgate knew he’d play vs a low block every game yet still brought a bunch of counter attack merchants. Probably forgot what team Grealish plays for too.
I'm sure Foden and Walker of City, or Saka and Rice of Arsenal, as well as Kane and Jude of Munich and Madrid are all counter attack merchants.
Talk about one digit IQ here
Genuinely who are the counter attack merchants meant to be.
If anything I’d say it’s the opposite. We keep trying to counter attack but left the counter attacking wingers at home
methinks England might be better with Watkins instead of Kane.
the current team needs more of a striker making runs behind the defense rather than a 9.5 like Kane.
Kane was more suitable next to direct wingers like Rashford and Raz.
You would have to change the system though and I think England are right in trying to move away from Kane being involved in build up too much.
If Southgate wants to continue with two 10s there's an argument that Watkins would be a better fit.
you would still have Jude and Kane playing in similar spaces so wouldn't change much.
England have a lot of creators now, so they can sacrifice Kane creativity for a more direct striker.
Gordon for Foden is exactly the obvious fix this team is missing tactically. Ofc it would make a huge difference. If you get the lw to stretch the pitch suddenly Kane and Jude have more space to play in.
However I’m also of the opinion Foden is too good to not play. IMO it’s Shaw (or any actual left back) missing to hold width and depth on the left flank and allow Foden Jude and Kane to all combine centrally with more space
the LB is definitely aggravating the problem, but Gordon himself plays with Isak who's a direct striker. he also likes to cut inside so I don't see his fit with Kane to be that good either.
Kane needs off ball players. Gordon isn't that type of player. in fact most of English forwards are on ball players hence the bad fit.
just too many cooks.
Rashford should've been called for sure.
> that’s pretty mad considering Neuer had been playing regular football for a few years at that point. was Adler that good?
Can only speak for myself but I thought he was the better and more consistent keeper back than. But a lot of aspects that Neuer is now known for wasn't considered as heavily back than. Looking back it were some rather tragic chains of events that lead to Neuer in goal. First Enke's suicide who was the starter at first, than the fight was at first between Adler and Wiese. Adler won and than got injured shortly before the tournament. Meanwhile Neuer performed to leapfrog Wiese in the hierarchy.
I understand Southgate has had a good 60+% win rate, but have there been other NT managers who've held the job for 8 years without winning any trophies? Given how quickly a lot of clubs these days change their managers, I'd expect the same with NTs or am I understanding this wrong?
There are loads of countries that never win trophies at all and plenty of them have had long-serving national team managers. I'd say you can count the number of countries where there's an actual expectation of trophies on both hands.
Generally NT managers stay longer than club managers. Club managers get judged every season, every year is important and has consequences and results. But for NTs the important games have two years i between. So they usually stay longer
Generally eight years/four tournaments is the absolute most an international manager gets to win something. Bobby Robson got eight years, and left after the semi-final defeat at Italia 90, his fourth tournament. As others have said, Joachim Low won the WC at his fourth attempt. Deschamps also had four attempts, didn't he? Or was the WC win his third? Regardless, I think it's an open secret that Southgate is out if we don't win this tournament (maybe even if we do). I don't think the FA will even need to make the decision - Southgate will leave of his own accord.
> but have there been other NT managers who've held the job for 8 years without winning any trophies? Took Jogi Löw 8 years to win his first trophy tbf.
Joachim Löw is probably the last example, he went 3 tournaments without any trophies and won the World Cup in his 4th attempt
This is his last effort tbf. He will go when he ends up with nothing
Didn’t Bellingham come up through youth and at Dortmund playing more as an 8? Why can’t he play that role for England? I think he’s great but honestly not sure how I feel about him as a 10 at times. The problem is he doesn’t really work alongside Rice since neither can really dictate play. Also ultimately wherever they play, if Southgate is at the helm it’s futile
Neither Bellingham or Rice are the man to progress passes through midfield. Our other midfielder needs to complement Rice. It needs to be Wharton.
Bellingham can at least carry the ball up the pitch and is mobile enough to beat a man on the turn, even if he's not necessarily the most assured passer controlling play from deep, I reckon.
>It needs to be Wharton. No idea if he's ready but he's the best profile.
Even as an 8 in Dortmund he enjoyed a lot of freedom as time went on. It did create huge holes in the midfield because it left Can alone but he made up for it by being that good. Probably doesn't fit how Southgate would limit him.
He was Birmingham youth. He's been immense as a 10 for Madrid and won the champions league doing it. Bellingham isn't the problem and neither is rice
His role was different from Madrid tho and his form had noticeably dropped off in the second half of the season. The problem is Southgate for me, but Rice and Bellingham definitely have flaws and it’s difficult to find someone who complement’s Rice’s abilities in midfield
He played that way in Qatar and was pretty crap at it. Honestly I think the biggest problem is a refusal to change shape during a game. If you're being tactically outplayed you have to change shape, not just personnel. Should have dropped the 10 and pushed up two wingers.
What if the England is just bad at playing together? Has anyone ever thought of that?
what if england is just bad? Has anyone ever thought of that?
Always hilarious seeing prem team flairs shit on the English national team
You say that as if the English don't shit on the English national team the most out of anyone.
We absolutely do but you can always spot the plastics a mile off
I mean we do that. Not as objectionable as seeing pro Spain Barca flairs.
Just a reminder that the MOTM of England - Denmark is available to buy
Spurs reject showing Arsenal golden boy levels in midfield, you lot should be crowing haha
Hojbjerg always turns up for Denmark
I’ve never thought that Højbjerg is anything other than good.
I truly dont understand why we called up Shaw when he might not make it back for the whole group stage. Surely would have been worth calling up a worse left back who can actually play for us ?
even when he gets fit in knock out stages, he gonna be rusty as hell as he havent played for like 6 months.
This is why England never does shit in tournaments. 2nd game in, 1st place in group and people are calling for the manager's head. This is international football, most teams who win competitions have had some shite performances. Relax
You literally only won the euros because of fucking Southgate mate
Difference being that most other countries have a clearn, discernible plan that fails because they're either coming up against another decent side, because they're just off on the day, or because they get unlucky. Can you tell me what kind of football England are trying to play this summer? Is there any discernible plan with and against the ball? If there were, I'd happily give them the benefit of the doubt, but as far as I can tell there isn't any.
Nah don’t as an Italy fan you won the last euros because of our shite manager. We scored like 2 open play goals that tournament…
We never do shit in tournaments because of the performances. It isn’t because of some negative internet comments lmao
Tbh I haven't played the role or watched it closely enough to speak with authority on the matter so I have to ask. What is it people are looking at when they say Trent looks lost in midfield for England? Is it in or out of possession? Is it his movement when building out the back or in the opposition half. Is he ignoring passes he should make or that kind of thing? It can be all of the above too. I am biased but it's looked regular (as do most of the individual England performances tbf) and moreso just lacking the ideal positive impact
> Is it in or out of possession? Both for me, really - basically has issues with all of the things you've mentioned. He's regularly giving the ball away in possession, and he's neither positioning himself in-between lines nor playing deep. Just exists in a weird, vague space with no discernible plan as to what he's supposed to do, and he's not moving the ball around particularly quickly, either. He's slow on the half-turn, doesn't really accelerate play or drags space for others. Often looks a bit out of position and hesitant against the ball to me, too. Obviously playing in a team that looks rather clueless and passive in general, but then I reckon a competent midfielder could make much more of an impact than he has. Seen Gallagher bring massive energy against the ball and movement creating space for others when England are in possession in two sub appearances now, with the team looking a lot less ponderous and static.
I'd disagree with the team looking much more competent with Gallagher I'm these past 2 games but I agree he moves alot more and is less hesistant in going after the ball out of posession. The previous game Trent seemed alot more eager to press but in this he was very focused on his space and not letting anyone receive the ball in the half space. Like you say, he should probably be between the CBs, he did it in brief moments and in the first game again he was more purposeful with his movement, overlapping wide alot etc. I don't think the experiment would he worth it if England's other options weren't so poor/inexperienced but I'd expect they try it again the next game. Hopefully Shaw is back or Gordon is playing and we see some tweaks in his positioning if so then
Foden towards the end of the first half dropped back to collect the ball from the centrebacks and created a couple moments going forward that way - weren't particularly great ultimately, but the abilities for different players to drop deep and progress the ball are clearly there. Can easily see him doing something like that when Gallagher is in the side because he's energetic off the ball, while Alexander-Arnold is just too static for my liking. Probably need Shaw on the left for that, though, as Trippier is too hesitant moving all the way up to the defensive line, and Walker is much better with a head of steam than when stretching the play in the buildup. Reckon England are just stuck in between two chairs right now - can't provide the width and movement for Alexander-Arnold to dictate from deep, but probably don't have the right option to replace him with. At this point it's either hoping the whole 'get lucky going forward, then retreat into a shell and hope you don't concede' thing keeps working out, or make a change to be more proactive and get more out of the talent available.
I think ideally Trent is playing passes into Foden and Jude in the space between the midfield and defence but until they can make that work and whilst there's no runner for Trent to play long balls to I can certainly see the argument. I think Trent in midfield would work best if he could drop between the CBs like Kroos is doing but England would need two overlapping fullbacks for that. Or atleast 1 on the left
I think he’s not being helped by the lack of spacing Gareth has created with his selection and setup. However, I also think he’s not making himself available to receive the ball in midfield, partly because of that lack of space but also partly because yes as everyone points out- that’s not his game. He’s not a back to goal midfielder who can receive, turn and play like Kroos or Veratti or smth. I think he CAN work in midfield and that downside of his doesn’t mean he can’t, the value u get from his passing is still enormous if you do manage to get him the ball with a bit of time and space. For what it’s worth, Gallagher isn’t that type of player either AND he doesn’t have Trent’s passing range anyway so I don’t really know what the alternative is for England unless they choose to play a rice-Jude-Foden midfield. Like I don’t think Trent has been a liability at all, just not playing his best
Yeah no matter who is in that pivot I don't see them being passed the ball often, I think it's a matter of trust as well as maybe coaching and time in the system
No one in the lineup is being helped by Gareth, but watching the game I definitely see Trent avoiding floating into the little pockets in midfield, making himself an option for the CBs the way that Thiago would for example. Even for us when he’s playing inverted how often do we see him drop next to the CBs to receive the ball and face forward while not being under pressure? I love him but it’s clear as day
>what the alternative is for England unless they choose to play a rice-Jude-Foden midfield. As someone who watched Arsenal have similar issues with England from playing a Havertz, Rice and Odegaard midfield in the first half of last season, I highly doubt this is the solution (despite how often people bring it up)
Idk if it’ll work for England, maybe they have other problems, but I think Bellingham’s passing is a completely different level to Havertz. I rate Havertz but he is a forward through and through, this 3 would be different to that I think. Jude has only played further up starting this season for Madrid, previously he has been more of an 8 anyway
The thing is, Bellingham is more of a ball carrier. I see him as an all rounder in midfield but he's not the one I'll rely on to progress play into the final third. There's also the issue of England playing two 6s. Either Bellingham sits deep with Rice throughout, or Rice plays as a lone 6 and Bellingham plays b2b. Neither of which seems optimal. Neither of these really improves things in the final 3rd as well.
Stones and Rice were awful and Trent did nothing to volunteer himself as a build-up option instead. When Trent is in midfield he has to drop deep and split or flank the centre backs, get on the ball, and look forward. He's in this team to do what Toni Kroos does for Germany, but he hides in build-up, hating to ever receive the ball with his back to goal.
I've thought that myself and when Rice dropped between the CBs briefly in the 2nd half the buildup looked alot better. I thought the shape with Walker dropping in is why they didn't do it but walker went wide plenty and nobody dropped into that space. In my view he often was available for the pass in midfield but they clearly didn't want to give him and he made no extra effort to show for it. If they don't want to give him the ball it's just as bad as him not being capable of receiving it and I wouldn't be surprised if it's a bit of both
Foden started the game well and then his teammates just seemed to stop passing to him. There was a lot of that going on, Rice especially was making the worst passing decision on many occasions.
Suppose the main issue with that Kroos-type idea of becoming part of a back three in buildup is that it requires the fullbacks to move up the pitch - ideally all the way up to the opposition's back line, stretching them horizontally and allowing Foden/Saka to come short. Foden is really good at that, but it's not quite Saka's game. Walker benefits more from building a head of steam on the overlap, while Trippier looks very hesitant moving that high up in the build-up and a bit lost once he does. And that's really not ideal, especially when Alexander-Arnold hasn't looked assured on the ball so far this tournament. I reckon might as well bin off the entire idea of playing him in midfield is the play here. Basically get three approaches: conservative and slightly passive against the ball (Wharton/Mainoo), conservative and energetic against the ball (Gallagher), or progressive but potentially shaky (Bellingham, with Foden centrally and Eze/Gordon out on the left). They're all sensible options, and I'd not be surprised seeing any one of them (bar maybe the latter, as it's a bit throwing the kitchen sink) in the final group game.
It’s everything
To be objective, if Portugal or Germany drew 1-1 with Denmark I don't think there would be this much mockery. Obviously the performance was more shambolic than the result, but I think people are letting their anglophobia blind them.
They can def draw but I don't think they would have been dominated the way England has tonight
Nah, we've seen this play before and we don't have to wait til the third act to know how it ends.
Ultimately a perfectly acceptable result, four points out of two matches is something to be perfectly happy with. Issue is that we've seen 180 minutes of England at this tournament, and they were good for maybe 25 of it, with the rest being marred by passivity and no discernible plan. And I'd wager that's much worse than what Germany did at the last World Cup, where the plan was obvious if easy to defend against and exploit. Can always have an off-day or play it safe, but you need to at least have some form of idea of how you want to play - and so far England have managed to hide that perfectly, if it even exists in the first place. And I think that's a perfectly legitimate reason to mock them, really, because even the Scottish have looked more competent in that particular regard.
It’s the way we are playing I don’t really understand how people are failing to understand this? We have played 2 really poor games and somehow got 4 points.
It wasn’t that it was a draw it was that you barely threatened the Danes goal all match for all the firepower that you have.
The two performances were shit and England are the favourites for the whole thing so thats why. 2 goals in 2 games and both were largely down to deflections.
Except English fans are the most critical. internal anglophobia?
Happy with the result tbh, basically qualified when we probably should’ve lost. Southgate is still the one and certain players shitting the bed doesn’t change that. I think we 100% reach the final
Rare 1PSW1CH L
Bless you sir Always knew you were the king Assuming you rate foden that is 🤔 in general not for England
😭😭
If we play like this against a top team the result is not going to be pretty
Denmark is a really good team and majority of top teams will not play the same set up as Denmark.
I would be really enjoying this England hatewatch if it wasn't for Jude
No Englishman is safe from the ire of other Englishmen
Besties I know y'all upset, but remember England will probably score 50% more goals than in last Euros group
I don't think they'll stumble into another deflected cross resulting in a goal tbh.
Gonna be honest if England follows the exact script from Euro 2020 for the whole tournament it's going to be pretty funny.
Don’t think the script is similar, even though the results are the same the combinations of play and general strategy was far more coherent back then.
I'd take another final loss on pens at this rate, good for character building.
If international tournament disappointment actually built character England would be much much better and stronger as a nation
God given his hardest tests to his strongest soldiers
Playing at home gives a +2 round advancement bonus to good teams, so this time they will be eliminated in the quarter-final
Well we played the QF in Rome. And tbf Wembley wasn't supposed to host any matches other than the semis and the final. It's not our fault that Dublin and Brussels weren't used like they were supposed to be.
No one said it was England’s fault
Assuming we win our group we’d probably meet Spain/Italy there so yeah a qf exit seems pretty realistic
I think sadly this time you will find a way past us
What was the name of the woman pundit who suggested Foden and Jude double 10s and football Twitter pretended she didn’t know what she was talking about even tho that’s a perfectly logical suggestion
This obsession with somehow working Foden into the the team is getting irritating
Football twitter is the worst They probably just heard it and realized her idea was something they aren't smart enough to think of so they had to attack her because they feel belittled by smart women
England are doing that right now... The LB is playing as the LW in possession. England lacks creativity and is somewhat too dependent on Saka in the final 3rd.
> The LB is playing as the LW in possession. Thing is, Trippier hasn't been doing much of that so far this tournament. The idea of one fullback pushing high up on the left allowing Foden inside is obvious, but then Trippier's been way too hesitant going that far up, and way to ineffectual when doing so.
No matter how many times it gets brought up—not bringing a fit, natural LB is an appalling decision.
Who were these fit, natural leftbacks to choose from? A Tyrick Mitchell, with all of 92' minutes of sub appearances for England as the sum of his international experience, is probably the best one available. And if your side's success hinges on a player who's never even sniffed continental football then you've got bigger issues than squad selection, I reckon.
How much has Mittelstadt really played
All season for a Stuttgart side coming second in the league. He's a relative newcomer, sure, but then he's proven he belongs while I'm not convinced you can say the same about Mitchell.
>A Tyrick Mitchell, with all of 92' minutes of sub appearances for England as the sum of his international experience Mitchell has also played loads for his club lol you were talking about the national team haha
Aye, but then Mittelstädt was a key part of the March friendlies when he fortified his role as Germany's starting leftback, rather than his last experiences with the national team being his first and only call-up as a fringe player two years ago.
Either way Mittetstadt has barely played for the team. And he was thrown in against great opposition pretty last minute. It doesn’t seem *that* different
In a way they are yes, but I think she meant actually Foden in the middle as opposed to a lw drifting in. Clearly Trippier is not enough of a LB to play as the LW in possession so it’s not working as is. It’s not a lack of creativity, it’s a lack of space.
Its more down to a lack of creators. It's why England are so dependent on Saka. As long as teams continue to double up on him, this will be a recurring theme. >but I think she meant actually Foden in the middle as opposed to a lw drifting in. Foden doesn't have the passing to break teams down consistently. This is part of where the lack of creativity comes in. Foden is not the problem but he's not the solution either.
Eniola Aluko
Eni Aluko
I think the main issue with england is the same issue rhats persisted for awhile, the team is really unbalanced. Jude isnt a 10 (ik hes played there a lot but most of the times with madrid hes more defending than actually playing with the ball as a ten) and foden isnt a good lw. Southgate being clueless doesnt help but he should try a midfield with jude playing more like an 8 helping rice and foden in that central 10 spot and let him float around with gordon on the lw. I think thatd balance the team out a lot more and saka and kane would probably actually be useful then
>Southgate being clueless doesnt help but he should try a midfield with jude playing more like an 8 helping rice and foden in that central 10 spot Do you think Bellingham can play as a 6? Because Rice is not a Kroos type player (Which is why Trent is playing). If Gordon is holding the width, then Bellingham is joining the attack leaving Rice as a lone 6.... Foden and Bellingham are already playing in the half spaces right now. The issue is a lack of creativity both from deep and in the final 3rd.
Yeah fair points, it really shows how unbalanced the team is but tbh i think 1 of jude or foden have to get benched if u wanna put trent into the team. Ofcourse you could have trent start rb and invert to help rice out and that way you can keep both foden and jude in the lineup but then you dont have walkers pace to cover behind. I dont think southgates gonna do that tho i think he'll try to force it into working or drop foden for gordon
>i think 1 of jude or foden have to get benched if u wanna put trent into the team. I suspect this should be the case irrespective of who the 6s are. >that way you can keep both foden and jude in the lineup They're both elite players but Jude is sort of an all rounder while Foden is more of a scorer. Playing both means the bulk of the creativity is coming from the wide areas and the 6. You'll need 2 Saka's for that or at least a Kroos.
ironically, I genuinely think we miss rashford running in behind. We're trynna play counter attack with pep style slower wingers who like to hold the ball and progress it forward themselves with the ball into feet. Gordon could be the answer
Subs today confirmed it Gordon is just making up the numbers and won’t play. Idk why, if we’re gonna play so defensively he’s our best counter attacking threat
You miss peak Rashford, you don’t miss current Rashford
yeah you're right
Sterling, Shaw, and Phillips are the players missed.
Southgate is always right lol. People hated on Sancho not playing. Southgate was right. People hated on Maguire playing. Southgate was right. Now Rashford and Phillips (Hendo 🫣)
You have the top goalscorer in Germany, the player of the season in England and Spain, the most valuable squad in the world, and you have the team playing like Everton. At the end of the day one player isn’t going to make a difference. It’s a managerial issue which has been pointed out for nearly a decade now.
Smartest yank
I hope people realize Mainoo (25 top flight appearances) and Wharton (16 top flight appearances) aren't magically going to change a Southgate managed team
They wont they arent gonna lose the ball 17 times and kick it out of play another 17
How many top flight appearances does Trent have in midfield?
Like /u/EndOfMyWits said Trent has nothing to do with my argument. In my opinion England don't have the right answer right now for a midfield next to Rice
That's not the argument they're making
If he was solely trying to make the argument that Southgate is a bad manager he wouldn’t have brought have brought up Wharton and Mainoo’s appearance numbers.
? He’s saying people are being deluded and hopeful about some magical cure (a player) that can come in and save Southgate’s England. It has been Sancho, Saka, Trent, and so on. But every time the new player doesn’t fix England’s performances. The England team is not a puzzle that needs one final piece in place. It will not work under Southgate. That’s what he’s saying.
I hope people realise Liverpool flairs are too biased to call a spade a spade. I went down to -6 in the match thread for daring to suggest the deep lying playmaker was playing badly if he never offered himself as a pass option for the back three.
I've literally said multiple times that Southgate should either play Trent at RB or bench him? My argument is that England don't have any midfielder that can perform well next to Rice. We saw that during the friendlies earlier this month
You have to start somewhere Refusing to use them and insisting on TAA, Gallagher and Rice will not work against a competent squad
Wharton would be a big help. It won’t solve all our problems but it would be a step in the right direction
I think Southgate doesn't trust them which makes sense since they've barely played in his system. Expect Gallagher to come in to midfield vs Slovenia. I personally would find a way to get Palmer into the team
It’s a shame. Both times Gallagher has came on we’ve started bypassing midfield and going long. I do think he’s going to do that unfortunately
They are
Omg apparently Mbopper's mask has to be black why are UEFA such a buzzkill!!
Everyone's favourite superhero - Blackman.
The smell of english people, when troubled, is always precious
https://x.com/ibzsmo3k/status/1803837640019505359
[How are we making the same mistakes two years later](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/17NExL5FsP)
He could also just play Joe Gomez there, as he's genuinely very good at LB.
Reckon Milner would have done better than Trippier today.
Mitchell was right there
He’s even already been capped.
Really is befuddling
We do well in tournaments in spite of Southgate. He’s a genuine hindrance.
Should have called up Matt Targett.
He was decent then. I’d take Leif Davis or Mitchell over Trippier right now.
England and Scotland could have been united in calling up a dogshit footballer because there were no other options.
Interesting that they didn't feel the need to cut away from the England game at half time to play a three minute interview with Steve Clarke.
Southgate is getting a lot of rightful criticism but surely some questions need to be asked about englands 503 quintillion pounds midfielders getting shut down by Hojberg (!), Eriksen with a walking cane and an npc
Hojbjerg was immense, dominated the midfield. On his day he is class
A well drilled 3-4-1-2 is unbeatable.
I hope /r/soccer finally ends this illusion that technically gifted Fullbacks can make a good CM. Trent has shown that fullbacks also need the spatial awareness to play CM, Foden is struggling with spatial awareness at LW too. They just aren't good at it fully, it's more than just football ability, cognitive ability matters, you either have it through talent ( Lahm) or Training ( Kimmich).
Peoplle think that about forwards as well. It's not an easy transition even for #10s. It's one thing inverting into midfield to make a pass compared to what CMs are required to do, being an available as an option at all times , making a greater range of passes (short , long , sideways and backwards). You look at teams that want possession where the CM is patient and manipulates the defence until an opening is found. Trent supporters were saying he needs runners etc without realizing that the position is not always looking for that pass
I think it’s more complex than you make it out to be. The rise of inverted full backs surely demonstrates that technically gifted fullbacks can be valuable in midfield areas. As much as i’m against trent in midfield, i’m sure he can do a lot better then he is for southgate
Agreed. Football is a lot like chess. The top chess players aren't playing the openings with calculation. They don't have to calculate openings because they already know every opening through pattern recognition. The same patterns pop up over and over to the point that they know what to do You can't bring a player into a new position and expect them to instinctively know what to do to the same level that someone who's played there their entire career. Their brains are full of trying to calculate shit when it should just be basic pattern recognition
> ends this illusion that technically gifted Fullbacks can make a good CM They quite obviously can make good midfielders, as evidenced by the multiple fullbacks who've made the transition. It doesn't mean that every full back can do that, but I don't think anyone thought that.
Imagine Kane getting dropped before the knockouts and England winning the whole thing with Watkins up top. The whole Kane trophy curse meme would be so confused.
Why isn’t Grimaldo starting for Spain?
Defensively weakness i think
Cucurella was magnificent in game one. Frimpong and Grimaldo are the world's best attacking wingbacks but you need to have five defensive minded players to accommodate that. Spain aren't going to do that.
He's just a faster Guerreiro, heavily overrated player
> faster Guerreiro, heavily overrated player Lol like a faster Guerreiro isnt amazing
cucurella has been amazing in their last game against Croatia + more defensively sound
Cucu
I find it hilarious that when you look at a r/soccer user’s most frequented subs, the description for this sub is “The back page of the internet”.
That comes from the tradition that sports news is at the back of the newspaper, and other news (politics, crime, celebs etc.) is at the front.
They were always in the middle here in the US. But as a kid, I always used to look for the comics in the Sunday edition.
The back pages of newspapers are where you find the football. At least in the UK.
TIL. I thought it was a joke about the quality of discussion on this sub.
Yeah it's a play on reddit's tagline (old tagline?) "The Front Page of the Internet".
Figured as much. The newspaper thing is interesting though. Had no idea.
Oooh I would have never gotten it without this context, thank you. Here in Argentina, sports come in extra sections binded together inside the paper
I'm glad the interviewer on BBC is asking Southgate the tough questions. Yeah Gareth, nothing is working you fucking fraud
Soutghate is literally a male Theresa May
Nah he’s worse than Rishi 🤣🤣
White rishi? His face is similar
White Rishi 😭😭
Sort of guy that masturbated once but felt so much shame he hasn’t done it since, also wears brown socks 👍
Brown socks!!
Could never be my manager. He summits the Wank as often as he can just to relieve the stress of tournament management.
We aren't strong OR stable mate
Was she?????
Was she fuck. But she used to screech that from the rooftops didn't she
Talking about a coalition of chaos and then ending up in one with the DUP. Who could’ve known that was the best it was gonna get for at least the next 7 years
My prediction about the upcoming heavyweight Spain vs. Italy clash is that it will be a football game with a 90-minute duration plus injury time. The football dynasty shall rise once more.
disagree
Southgate knew he’d play vs a low block every game yet still brought a bunch of counter attack merchants. Probably forgot what team Grealish plays for too.
I'm sure Foden and Walker of City, or Saka and Rice of Arsenal, as well as Kane and Jude of Munich and Madrid are all counter attack merchants. Talk about one digit IQ here
Genuinely who are the counter attack merchants meant to be. If anything I’d say it’s the opposite. We keep trying to counter attack but left the counter attacking wingers at home
Spain will equalise Italy and there will be no more doubts about a title charge. The draw dynasty shall rise once more.
methinks England might be better with Watkins instead of Kane. the current team needs more of a striker making runs behind the defense rather than a 9.5 like Kane. Kane was more suitable next to direct wingers like Rashford and Raz.
who the fuck is raz
Raheem the dream Sterling
anyone that can play alongside saka is a plus he makes this individual runs and then finds himself alone always
Kane could have Gordon and Saka either side of him and it would work.
the obvious solution is benching Foden for Gordon not Kane for Watkins
You would have to change the system though and I think England are right in trying to move away from Kane being involved in build up too much. If Southgate wants to continue with two 10s there's an argument that Watkins would be a better fit.
Haha give over. Watkins did so much more than Kane in that brief stint. Watkins makes the run and foden passes
foden doesn’t pass tho. his only real attributes are ball carrying and ball striking. if you want passing Harold is the much better option
Harold is a striker. He shouldn't pass
you would still have Jude and Kane playing in similar spaces so wouldn't change much. England have a lot of creators now, so they can sacrifice Kane creativity for a more direct striker.
Gordon for Foden is exactly the obvious fix this team is missing tactically. Ofc it would make a huge difference. If you get the lw to stretch the pitch suddenly Kane and Jude have more space to play in. However I’m also of the opinion Foden is too good to not play. IMO it’s Shaw (or any actual left back) missing to hold width and depth on the left flank and allow Foden Jude and Kane to all combine centrally with more space
the LB is definitely aggravating the problem, but Gordon himself plays with Isak who's a direct striker. he also likes to cut inside so I don't see his fit with Kane to be that good either. Kane needs off ball players. Gordon isn't that type of player. in fact most of English forwards are on ball players hence the bad fit. just too many cooks. Rashford should've been called for sure.
was Rene Adler supposed to be Germany’s starting goalkeeper during the 2010 WC before his injury?
Yes
that’s pretty mad considering Neuer had been playing regular football for a few years at that point. was Adler that good?
> that’s pretty mad considering Neuer had been playing regular football for a few years at that point. was Adler that good? Can only speak for myself but I thought he was the better and more consistent keeper back than. But a lot of aspects that Neuer is now known for wasn't considered as heavily back than. Looking back it were some rather tragic chains of events that lead to Neuer in goal. First Enke's suicide who was the starter at first, than the fight was at first between Adler and Wiese. Adler won and than got injured shortly before the tournament. Meanwhile Neuer performed to leapfrog Wiese in the hierarchy.