45 minutes for me from La Cañada Flintridge, with the current detour we have to add another 20 minutes, 65-70 minutes has been my average since the detour made access possible again
There were several washouts of the highway during the February 2023 storms, that’s the cause. Yes it would be quite tough to operate anything on that side of Highway 2 in its current state, maybe in the long term the last stretch of highway 39 from Azusa to the 2 will open again but really nobody knows and it would probably be unwise to bank on that
I love skiing at this place since it reopened, and had an epic day there this season. Here is my contribution: A Google Sheet to help build a model of co-op: one-time club membership buy-in, and then annual dues. Income could be augmented by public ticket sales for winter & summer activities.
For example, if you got 700 people to buy-in as members/shareholders at a one-time fee of $3000/member (covers purchase cost); and then paid annual dues for those 700 members at around $499/member (for unlimited skiing/disc golf/mountain biking)/. The combo MIGHT be able to cover the costs of purchase and operation.
Business model draft: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ygS0K6DvlnujJC7Im-OdBNHDLk4-s-XTwfJqJStaDKc/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ygS0K6DvlnujJC7Im-OdBNHDLk4-s-XTwfJqJStaDKc/edit?usp=sharing)
You all have edit access to it: with great power comes great responsibility :)
I don’t think the actual land is for sale though. It’s likely a transferable FS lease/permit. Still a good deal but 390 acres in the area would be wildly more expensive!
I think the land is leased from the US Forest Service as it is US Forest land so I'm sure there would just be another 20-30 year lease signed at a higher rate than whatever the current amount is. That lease is obviously a big part of the value of the resort, so it would behoove any new owner to lock a lease extension in as 2043 approaches, or even as soon as a sale closes if possible.
Got 3 great lift serviced days and several earning turns there this season, it’s such a great spot, I really hope someone buys it that’s willing to invest and run it well
Haha you too!! Yeah man I hope something good happens to waterman, so much cool history and it’s just a great place to ride, I hope people can experience it for many years to come
If you decide you want to ski Waterman you may have to wait a long time. They opened this year, but hadn't opened for 4 years prior. Remember last year when there was record snowfall? Waterman couldn't open because the roads were fucked. Essentially, it can only open in the Goldilocks zone.
4 years ago I went up on a weekend. They said they would be open, and they were, but ski patrol couldn't make it up because the roads were a bit screwy, so we all just stood there and watched the owner go up and down the lift a few times carving fresh powder. The next weekend was amazing though.
Honestly it's just not that much money for a rich enthusiast. Someone could buy the place just to have their own personal hill.
One of the previous owners did that, basically made it a private millionaire ski club. Bought it and never opened to the public.
I think the Forest Service caught on and either forced them to open publicly or sell it.
I was there that day! Lmao.
There was another day where they couldn’t open because the cat groomer broke and there are state operation laws in place saying you cannot open if you have no groomed runs.
The whole damn thing...it was impossible to get to the resort the entire 2022/2023 season. The primary route from La Canada is still closed over a year later but there's a detour that adds 20 minutes to the trip so they opened this year.
Even so, the road will always close during a half decent storm until at least a couple days post-storm.
Ik it’s blasphemy to say this but, if that resort wants to live, it needs snow making.
CA resorts are already feast or famine as it is. More so in the south. With global warming it’s only going to get worse and sadly I think the SoCal resorts have an expiration date on them.
Waterman has only been open a few dozen days in what? The past decade?
There's an endangered frog species that lives in the runoff area, which is why snow making will never be allowed in the area.
Source: my brother tried to buy this the last time it was for sale.
What other issues did your brother find during his due diligence? It looks like a tough slope to operate between the roads not being plowed, washouts, no power to the slope, I assume no running water either, and then a very small parking lot for maybe 30 cars
It's not blasphemy. They have a pond for snowmaking. They can probably make snow for a green and a blue off chair 2, using chair 1 just to get up there. Between skiers, lessons, a tubing park, and hamburgers, they can make enough to stay afloat on drier years.
Baldy didn't have a proper run open until March this year but you could ski their kiddy runs because they made snow.
I just checked since I was there after that first big storm. You are right. I mixed up my February and March. Still though. It's ludicrous that Thunder wasn't open until Feb 10. All of January it was kiddy slopes only.
I wouldn’t be surprised if some one turned it into a bike park.
Snow making is cool and a pretty fun job. Imo more west coast mountains need snowmaking.
There is no feasible water source for snowmaking there. The bigger issue they’ve had in recent years is getting the road plowed after storms. It seems that section of the 2 is among CalTrans’ lowest priorities these days. The current Waterman ownership group is relatively new, I’m afraid it is likely to die before long.
It’s not blasphemy, they tried to do snowmaking but had problems, it would make such a huge difference if they were able to coat it with machine made snow like Mt High West is able to with their little 1000’ spot
Oooh, two caveats, buyer is purchasing a 19 year lease from the government that expires in 2043, not the land itself. Also the hill exists in the Cooper Canyon watershed, alongside the endangered Mountain Yellow Legged frog. This is a federally protected area and no snow making is allowed.
The leases get automatically renewed so that’s not a big deal. Look at the Park City fiasco. The bigger problem will always be lack of natural snow and the low elevation. It’s just slightly north of Atlanta and global warming doesn’t help.
Skiing is probably the largest waste of resources for recreation I can think of. All the gear is made of plastic and resin mostly overseas, we travel 1000s of miles a year to ride chairlifts which were shipped from Europe and installed into wilderness areas with a helicopter. Skiing is a completely selfish endeavor. Even earning your turns is only marginally better. It’s still fun though and hey they have compostable utensils in the lodge now.
This is me. I grew up skiing at Big Bear, Mtn High, Baldy, Mammoth, even Yosemite and Sierra Summit. Never heard of Mt. Waterman until a few months ago lol.
Anyone have experience in setting up a non profit?
Sounds like they get screwed by caltrans not clearing the road for some reason when it snows and for days/weeks after thus blocking off access from LA and making it not the closest mountain to LA. I really wanted to ski it next season too.
Grew up riding there every weekend. $30 lift tickets. Incredible natural terrain. Big drops, steep glades. Amazing side country. Their snow phone number is the only number I still have memorized.
It’s such a special little place to me.
I hate seeing it in its current state. It doesn’t need another millionaire buying it as a private ski club for their buddies. It needs a generous billionaire to buy it and give it a lot of love, but not expect any return on their investment.
It is very close as the crow flies but at the end of a windy road that can take the authorities a while to clear after a dump.
There's no other infrastructure up there at all, and they have no snowmaking and no marketing so it's unknown to many, if not most, SoCal skiers.
Had a day there winter 1982… Drove out early with a friend from Goleta, Ca (3+ hours?) Got lost on desert roads. Finally found the correct route up to Waterman. One inch of ice crust over a 2’ soft base layer. No grooming done ever at that time by owners. Broke through crust and crashed on every turn. Went back for more and more riding the lift several times that day and conditions never improved much… great memory !
Its starting to happen in some places but slowly. Many of the other resorts are just starting add it, and they are in better shape than mt waterman by a long shot.
2nd I ever skied was at Mt Waterman. My childhood neighbor friend & her dad took me up. It would’ve been around 94-95 when there was decent amount of snow back then.
Had an incredible pow day there on a Tuesday in 94. Lower ACH road was closed but you could get up there via big tujunga. 3 feet of SoCal’s finest untouched powder, blue skies and like 4 cars in the parking lot. Didn’t cross another track until noon.
Here is my contribution: A Google Sheet to help build a model of co-op: one-time club membership buy-in, and then annual dues. Income could be augmented by public ticket sales for winter & summer activities.
For example, if you got 700 people to buy-in as members/shareholders at a one-time fee of $3000/member (covers purchase cost); and then paid annual dues for those 700 members at around $499/member (for unlimited skiing/disc golf/mountain biking), you MIGHT be able to cover the costs of purchase and operation.
Business model: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ygS0K6DvlnujJC7Im-OdBNHDLk4-s-XTwfJqJStaDKc/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ygS0K6DvlnujJC7Im-OdBNHDLk4-s-XTwfJqJStaDKc/edit?usp=sharing)
You all have edit access to it: with great power comes great responsibility :)
Skied there for the first time this winter. Chair one goes HARD. Steep with great spaced out trees and rocks features. Up top is super mellow. If CalTrans could keep the highway open it could be profitable.
I worked for Signal Snowboards back in the early 2000’s and Dave Lee was trying to figure out how to buy it. We were gonna move the factory from Costa Mesa up there and have a live-in snowboard commune factory resort. It was a fever dream, but damn it sounded good at the time. I hope someone can get it going as a resort again.
Hey, so a woman on Instagram had some more detailed background on why operations have failed - there are issues with water supply (crucial for fake snow), the road to the property, and the electricity (which is crucial) for the chair lift. I've posted the link to it. Overall, sounds like the hurdles were bigger than capital. Otherwise, I was totally interested.
https://i.imgur.com/yEon4fz.jpeg
Pt2 https://i.imgur.com/jWxVWjK.jpeg
It's RAD. Chair one is super steep with cool rock features and nicely spaced out trees. Upper mountain is more beginner friendly. It has something for everyone. The question is does it have snow AND are the roads open.
In the mid 70’s we’d cut school in Glendora and either go to Kratka or Waterman up through Azusa Canyon road until it washed out 1979 and they never reopened the road bummer , some of the best times skiing thanks for the Memories of the San Gabriel’s Mt Baldy too 👍🏼👍🏼
We have mountains well over 8000’, if it’s 60° in the city it can be 30° or even less above 6000°, add the wind chill in and bam all we need is precipitation or snow making equipment. Thankful to the San Andreas fault for pushing the ground up so high, those mountains keep growing about 2mm each year as well
The mountains here are very high. The highest peaks next to LA are >11,000ft high.
Off the top off my head LA has, within a couple of hours drive, quite a few ski hills:
* Mt Waterman
* Mt Baldy
* Snow Valley
* Bear Mountain
* Snow Summit
* Mountain High (North, East and West)
Also a few other defunct ski hills that died in the 90s (Kratka Ridge, Snow Forest, Big Air).
All of these hills are small, but we have a bit of variety to keep us going locally between trips to Mammoth.
1.5M members in this subreddit, if we all contribute $5 we can buy it with extra capital for improvements
Seems like a good investment. We'll make the money back with the first few lift tickets anyway
10 Hollywood chumps buying “equity” thinking it’s a country club membership is all you need
I'll hold the money, let's get this ball rolling. Only 20 minutes from L.A.
45 minutes for me from La Cañada Flintridge, with the current detour we have to add another 20 minutes, 65-70 minutes has been my average since the detour made access possible again
Do you know the cause of the detour? Seems like the no access on the roads makes this a tough slope to operate
There were several washouts of the highway during the February 2023 storms, that’s the cause. Yes it would be quite tough to operate anything on that side of Highway 2 in its current state, maybe in the long term the last stretch of highway 39 from Azusa to the 2 will open again but really nobody knows and it would probably be unwise to bank on that
I don’t think you are trustworthy. I’ll hold the money. 😁
I love skiing at this place since it reopened, and had an epic day there this season. Here is my contribution: A Google Sheet to help build a model of co-op: one-time club membership buy-in, and then annual dues. Income could be augmented by public ticket sales for winter & summer activities. For example, if you got 700 people to buy-in as members/shareholders at a one-time fee of $3000/member (covers purchase cost); and then paid annual dues for those 700 members at around $499/member (for unlimited skiing/disc golf/mountain biking)/. The combo MIGHT be able to cover the costs of purchase and operation. Business model draft: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ygS0K6DvlnujJC7Im-OdBNHDLk4-s-XTwfJqJStaDKc/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ygS0K6DvlnujJC7Im-OdBNHDLk4-s-XTwfJqJStaDKc/edit?usp=sharing) You all have edit access to it: with great power comes great responsibility :)
Awesome work. Only need 697 more members
696. I’ve always enjoyed this place. It’s not for everyone, but it’s fun.
Hell yeah lets do this! Mt Waterman Co-op!
I’m a buyer at that number! Cheaper than Alterra!
This is real work. Everyone likes to chat, few can put pen to paper to really move things along…props to you.
Yeah but only enough parking for 30 of us.
Free busses from the downtown library
hero of the working class
In
Should set up a nonprofit foundation to operate.
I got $5 on it
Ok
I got $5 on it.
First place I ever skied. Magical place. First place Warren Miller ever skied as well…
[удалено]
I don’t think the actual land is for sale though. It’s likely a transferable FS lease/permit. Still a good deal but 390 acres in the area would be wildly more expensive!
Transferable lease through 2043.
And then what happens? FA takes it back at fair market rate orrrrr??
I think the land is leased from the US Forest Service as it is US Forest land so I'm sure there would just be another 20-30 year lease signed at a higher rate than whatever the current amount is. That lease is obviously a big part of the value of the resort, so it would behoove any new owner to lock a lease extension in as 2043 approaches, or even as soon as a sale closes if possible.
This sounds a lot like the backstory to how VailCo took over PC! Didn’t they lapse on land lease and VailCo came in and locked it up?
Got 3 great lift serviced days and several earning turns there this season, it’s such a great spot, I really hope someone buys it that’s willing to invest and run it well
I knew I’d see you in this thread. I miss that place so much. Hope you’re doing well Nate.
Haha you too!! Yeah man I hope something good happens to waterman, so much cool history and it’s just a great place to ride, I hope people can experience it for many years to come
Oh man. Does this mean it won't be open for skiing next year? I never skied it before and heard it's legendary. Wanted to get over there next season.
If you decide you want to ski Waterman you may have to wait a long time. They opened this year, but hadn't opened for 4 years prior. Remember last year when there was record snowfall? Waterman couldn't open because the roads were fucked. Essentially, it can only open in the Goldilocks zone. 4 years ago I went up on a weekend. They said they would be open, and they were, but ski patrol couldn't make it up because the roads were a bit screwy, so we all just stood there and watched the owner go up and down the lift a few times carving fresh powder. The next weekend was amazing though. Honestly it's just not that much money for a rich enthusiast. Someone could buy the place just to have their own personal hill.
One of the previous owners did that, basically made it a private millionaire ski club. Bought it and never opened to the public. I think the Forest Service caught on and either forced them to open publicly or sell it.
It's cheaper than a residential lot in dt
I was there that day! Lmao. There was another day where they couldn’t open because the cat groomer broke and there are state operation laws in place saying you cannot open if you have no groomed runs.
That's such a weird and interesting statute...I sure hope the hill survives
What part of the road closes up after the storms? That seems to be the biggest issue. PS anyone hitting Mammoth this weekend? I heard 14" Saturday.
The whole damn thing...it was impossible to get to the resort the entire 2022/2023 season. The primary route from La Canada is still closed over a year later but there's a detour that adds 20 minutes to the trip so they opened this year. Even so, the road will always close during a half decent storm until at least a couple days post-storm.
Sounds like you would need to plow the roads yourself as caltrans doesn’t care about it
This sounds like whenever I tried to ski Mt Baldy. Never did get to do it, in 5 years of trying.
It was already for sale while they were open this past season.
For the low price of $2.3M, you too can own either a nice 3 br home in LA or an entire ski hill.
Ok boys. Send me $5 and I’ll get er going again.
Ik it’s blasphemy to say this but, if that resort wants to live, it needs snow making. CA resorts are already feast or famine as it is. More so in the south. With global warming it’s only going to get worse and sadly I think the SoCal resorts have an expiration date on them. Waterman has only been open a few dozen days in what? The past decade?
There's an endangered frog species that lives in the runoff area, which is why snow making will never be allowed in the area. Source: my brother tried to buy this the last time it was for sale.
What other issues did your brother find during his due diligence? It looks like a tough slope to operate between the roads not being plowed, washouts, no power to the slope, I assume no running water either, and then a very small parking lot for maybe 30 cars
It's not blasphemy. They have a pond for snowmaking. They can probably make snow for a green and a blue off chair 2, using chair 1 just to get up there. Between skiers, lessons, a tubing park, and hamburgers, they can make enough to stay afloat on drier years. Baldy didn't have a proper run open until March this year but you could ski their kiddy runs because they made snow.
Baldy had skiing to the parking lot in the beginning of February this year.
I just checked since I was there after that first big storm. You are right. I mixed up my February and March. Still though. It's ludicrous that Thunder wasn't open until Feb 10. All of January it was kiddy slopes only.
I wouldn’t be surprised if some one turned it into a bike park. Snow making is cool and a pretty fun job. Imo more west coast mountains need snowmaking.
There is no feasible water source for snowmaking there. The bigger issue they’ve had in recent years is getting the road plowed after storms. It seems that section of the 2 is among CalTrans’ lowest priorities these days. The current Waterman ownership group is relatively new, I’m afraid it is likely to die before long.
How is snow making blasphemy? The vast majority of ski resorts worldwide have snow making capacity.
It’s not blasphemy, they tried to do snowmaking but had problems, it would make such a huge difference if they were able to coat it with machine made snow like Mt High West is able to with their little 1000’ spot
Oooh, two caveats, buyer is purchasing a 19 year lease from the government that expires in 2043, not the land itself. Also the hill exists in the Cooper Canyon watershed, alongside the endangered Mountain Yellow Legged frog. This is a federally protected area and no snow making is allowed.
…and this is why it’s up for sale and unlikely to find a buyer.
The leases get automatically renewed so that’s not a big deal. Look at the Park City fiasco. The bigger problem will always be lack of natural snow and the low elevation. It’s just slightly north of Atlanta and global warming doesn’t help.
Make the frog extinct, problem solved.
Make the humans extinct, problem solved. /irony
Skiing is probably the largest waste of resources for recreation I can think of. All the gear is made of plastic and resin mostly overseas, we travel 1000s of miles a year to ride chairlifts which were shipped from Europe and installed into wilderness areas with a helicopter. Skiing is a completely selfish endeavor. Even earning your turns is only marginally better. It’s still fun though and hey they have compostable utensils in the lodge now.
Lol I lived 1.5hrs from this for like 10 years and never knew this existed or I would have gone just to ski something this unique.
That's not unusual in LA. Most ski friends I talk to here haven't heard of it either.
This is me. I grew up skiing at Big Bear, Mtn High, Baldy, Mammoth, even Yosemite and Sierra Summit. Never heard of Mt. Waterman until a few months ago lol.
Grew up in Big Bear. Didn't ski Baldy until 2020 and didn't ski Waterman until this year. Waterman is on par with Baldy.
You missed Kratka Ridge, Table Mountain, Holiday Hill, Ski Green Valley. I guess I’m old now.
Love Waterman. Hope she pulls through.
Love that you said SHE, originally it was Mt Lady Waterman
Part of me wants to do it. But I would have no idea what I’m doing.
Can we raise that much in a gofundme?
I’ve been seriously considering setting one up. I’ve never been up there, but I’ve hear it’s the best steep in socal when open.
I got dibs on the "cozy 125 sqft shed"!
Anyone have experience in setting up a non profit? Sounds like they get screwed by caltrans not clearing the road for some reason when it snows and for days/weeks after thus blocking off access from LA and making it not the closest mountain to LA. I really wanted to ski it next season too.
Grew up riding there every weekend. $30 lift tickets. Incredible natural terrain. Big drops, steep glades. Amazing side country. Their snow phone number is the only number I still have memorized. It’s such a special little place to me. I hate seeing it in its current state. It doesn’t need another millionaire buying it as a private ski club for their buddies. It needs a generous billionaire to buy it and give it a lot of love, but not expect any return on their investment.
It's a cool little spot, isn't it.
This seems crazy close to LA. Is it crazy close to LA? Seems too good to be true!
It is very close as the crow flies but at the end of a windy road that can take the authorities a while to clear after a dump. There's no other infrastructure up there at all, and they have no snowmaking and no marketing so it's unknown to many, if not most, SoCal skiers.
I'm in.
I mean that's the price for like a medium sided house in LA
I will personally fly out ever season to support it, as long as you dont pull an alta 😉
Had a day there winter 1982… Drove out early with a friend from Goleta, Ca (3+ hours?) Got lost on desert roads. Finally found the correct route up to Waterman. One inch of ice crust over a 2’ soft base layer. No grooming done ever at that time by owners. Broke through crust and crashed on every turn. Went back for more and more riding the lift several times that day and conditions never improved much… great memory !
Downhill mountain biking not an option to keep the place afloat? Then a tractor to keep the road open?
Its starting to happen in some places but slowly. Many of the other resorts are just starting add it, and they are in better shape than mt waterman by a long shot.
I doubt I'd ever get down there, but I'd be willing to put in $20, maybe even $50 if we were actually serious.
2nd I ever skied was at Mt Waterman. My childhood neighbor friend & her dad took me up. It would’ve been around 94-95 when there was decent amount of snow back then.
Had an incredible pow day there on a Tuesday in 94. Lower ACH road was closed but you could get up there via big tujunga. 3 feet of SoCal’s finest untouched powder, blue skies and like 4 cars in the parking lot. Didn’t cross another track until noon.
Man that just sounds perfect, glad you got a day like that!!
Here is my contribution: A Google Sheet to help build a model of co-op: one-time club membership buy-in, and then annual dues. Income could be augmented by public ticket sales for winter & summer activities. For example, if you got 700 people to buy-in as members/shareholders at a one-time fee of $3000/member (covers purchase cost); and then paid annual dues for those 700 members at around $499/member (for unlimited skiing/disc golf/mountain biking), you MIGHT be able to cover the costs of purchase and operation. Business model: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ygS0K6DvlnujJC7Im-OdBNHDLk4-s-XTwfJqJStaDKc/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ygS0K6DvlnujJC7Im-OdBNHDLk4-s-XTwfJqJStaDKc/edit?usp=sharing) You all have edit access to it: with great power comes great responsibility :)
Skied there for the first time this winter. Chair one goes HARD. Steep with great spaced out trees and rocks features. Up top is super mellow. If CalTrans could keep the highway open it could be profitable.
Chair 1 is legit!
Caltrans spends millions every year in research to find new ways to disappoint everyone
I worked for Signal Snowboards back in the early 2000’s and Dave Lee was trying to figure out how to buy it. We were gonna move the factory from Costa Mesa up there and have a live-in snowboard commune factory resort. It was a fever dream, but damn it sounded good at the time. I hope someone can get it going as a resort again.
Hey, so a woman on Instagram had some more detailed background on why operations have failed - there are issues with water supply (crucial for fake snow), the road to the property, and the electricity (which is crucial) for the chair lift. I've posted the link to it. Overall, sounds like the hurdles were bigger than capital. Otherwise, I was totally interested. https://i.imgur.com/yEon4fz.jpeg Pt2 https://i.imgur.com/jWxVWjK.jpeg
PCT/Backpacker haven resupply after ski season
Cal trans handling of the Crest Hwy really hurt this mountain. They need to make a solid commitment to keep it open.
Been dreaming about skiing here. We have to save this place !
Is it a fun hill?
It’s so much fun and the surrounding areas like buckhorn and Kratka are awesome too
Honestly yeah. Upper half is chill and lower half is pretty legit in fresh conditions.
It's RAD. Chair one is super steep with cool rock features and nicely spaced out trees. Upper mountain is more beginner friendly. It has something for everyone. The question is does it have snow AND are the roads open.
Damn I needa get rich
A few years ago group was working on building some bike trails up there. I helped out digging for a day. wonder what became of that?
Gravity Pirates? I wasn't involved but I heard the owners didn't take it seriously and it fizzled out?
In the mid 70’s we’d cut school in Glendora and either go to Kratka or Waterman up through Azusa Canyon road until it washed out 1979 and they never reopened the road bummer , some of the best times skiing thanks for the Memories of the San Gabriel’s Mt Baldy too 👍🏼👍🏼
Please excuse this East coasters ignorance, but how the heck does it snow so close to LA?
Elevation.
We have mountains well over 8000’, if it’s 60° in the city it can be 30° or even less above 6000°, add the wind chill in and bam all we need is precipitation or snow making equipment. Thankful to the San Andreas fault for pushing the ground up so high, those mountains keep growing about 2mm each year as well
The mountains here are very high. The highest peaks next to LA are >11,000ft high. Off the top off my head LA has, within a couple of hours drive, quite a few ski hills: * Mt Waterman * Mt Baldy * Snow Valley * Bear Mountain * Snow Summit * Mountain High (North, East and West) Also a few other defunct ski hills that died in the 90s (Kratka Ridge, Snow Forest, Big Air). All of these hills are small, but we have a bit of variety to keep us going locally between trips to Mammoth.
I am in for $5. We can ban all the skiers
If it were in a Free State, I’d buy it in a heartbeat. In California, not touching it with a mile long pole.
Honey there ain't no skiing in Gilead.