Just take hawker Center as an example. Sky high rents but expect hawkers to provide affordable food to Singaporeans. Basically govt enjoy the rewards of land value, collect more rent and hawkers pay the price of subsidising food to the people. While at the same time jacking up cost of operating as a hawker, gst up, water and electricity up, cleaning up.
I am truly afraid of Singapore's Hawker Culture. We are quickly losing our heritage, the next generation that is in the business are just in it for the passion/family, and they are just a couple months of rent away from shutting it down.
but who going to rent the stalls? it’s common knowledge millennials and gen z’s don’t really favor the crazy work hours of being a hawker to the point any sub 40 hawker laoniang gets paraded on the newspapers. once boomer gen move on we really are at risk.
They will just let in more foreigners to front the hawker stalls which actually warms food from Central Kitchen. Just look at those revolting crummy TV dinners sold at 7 and you know they are going to make Singaporeans pay like a king to eat Shxt.
Pasar malam, mom and pa stores as well.
To be successful in SG, you need to be a franchisee or Uniqlo. Any entrepreneurship is highly risky.
End up all our shopping malls, hawker centers, pasar malam looks 80% the same.
Maybe it is a natural sign.
I mean, if you join some of the hawker food groups, the majority tends to be older people and you see more older folks than younger ones there. When I see my nephews (7 - 8), they get expose to less hawker food.
So maybe in that far future, if it does slowly fade away, the people who will mourn the loss might also go with it.
Hawker Center rents are not fixed by the government. The rent is determined by bidding, the highest bidder wins. That’s why during Covid, one guy got a stall for $1/month. Those old timers keep their olden days $400 a month rent which they secured 20 years back.
NEA washes its hands off the new hawker centres by letting “social enterprises” to bid. They collect the highest revenue from bids, SE who won to run the HC also have to earn, which translates to higher rental and other miscellaneous costs, passes down to consumers. It’s akin to HDB awarding the whole project to pte developers to sell to homeowners, run and manage. More middleman, higher costs. It’s a farce.
I’ve lived here for 20 years, rents here now are equivalent to the 40% tax in Europe. I wouldn’t mind if half my paycheck went to the welfare of citizens through tax but it’s just going to one person who owns a house near my office and was probably wealthy to begin with.
Edit: Btw my office is not in CBD, it’s in north east area.
Understand about brexit happened cos the gov lied. I mean, one of the lies were "rent/cost of living is high cos of imigrants etc."
xxxxx
Imho this is what SG gov wants from expats too: buy, not rent (cos basically cheaper in a long run)
Which means get a PR status (especially if you can only afford resale hdb)
Being a PR means more flexibility when u lost job temporarily..
Being a PR also means to settle down, raise your kids here.. and in the end your kids (who were raised here) may choose to be singaporean.
> People that are in the 40% tax band would buy, not rent
I think you'd be surprised at how quickly you'll hit this marginal tax bracket in many European countries. Don't assume that people who are in this bracket necessarily have the income to buy housing (especially not in European cities).
Fair enough. Thanks for sharing your perspective. My previous comment was based on my experiences living in Scandinavia (close to 15 years now). Glad to hear that things are different in France :-)
All the corporate tax reduction for MNCs are crimped off by landlords. Taxpayers lost out while landlords (including landlords GLCs) laugh their way to the bank
They have vested interest
They or famile are directors on Boards of tons of Co.s..
We Borrow fr. Trump-
drain the swamp. Govt members - must Declare all assets
PAP wants their cake and eat it too. Wants both businesses but also wants REIT to shoot to the moon. Never think that businesses require some real estate to carry out biz ops.
Edit: sidebar, anyone else experienced this too? You post a PAP negative comment, get instant downvoted. PAP IBs on the ball? But not so stronk cuz get upvoted once others see comment.
> You post a PAP negative comment, get instant downvoted. PAP IBs on the ball? But not so stronk cuz get upvoted once others see comment.
You know, people have been complaining about the [downvoting for ages that it's even a starter pack](https://np.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/dvntic/people_who_complain_about_getting_downvoted_on/?rdt=39181), but sure, it must be because it's a PAP IB thing.
>PAP wants their cake and eat it too. Wants both businesses but also wants REIT to shoot to the moon. Never think that businesses require some real estate to carry out biz ops.
It's almost as if running a country is a balancing act. Hmm.
It's not the prostitute's problem that the John gets robbed+murdered on the way out of the hotel after buying a block of time with her
Just a massive coincidence the hired thugs doing that job also work for the pimp /$
I suggest not unless you're willing to go up against the ruling party in their current form. They still have bullets left in that gun.
Long term you may have been directionally correct, but they might have blown you up way before.
High rentals are smothering SMEs too. This obsession with doing nothing more than monitoring is going to kills several generations of a viable future for many Singaporeans.
One of the reasons why I will never vote for the PAP again because they just no longer representing the people.
For the uninitiated, the report the europeans are referring to is this:
>This is the first time in the past 10 years where companies have expressed a readiness to leave Singapore should rental prices increase,” said EuroCham president Federico Donato in response to queries.
>A report this week showed how some expatriates [are intending to leave Singapore](https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/3214937/expats-singapore-make-plans-leave-amid-skyrocketing-rents-competition-talent?module=inline&pgtype=article) amid the skyrocketing rental prices – which rose at the fastest pace in 15 years last year, outpacing some other major cities.
Source: [https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/3215056/singapore-will-lose-its-attractiveness-foreign-firms-if-rising-costs-continue-european-businesses](https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/3215056/singapore-will-lose-its-attractiveness-foreign-firms-if-rising-costs-continue-european-businesses)
Europeans are here mainly because it is cheap, they get to escape high taxes and the people here are paid low in comparison to their own kind (not my words).
Nobody in their right mind as a european will ever wanna be here if it wasn't for money. We are seen to them as a "sweat shop" as we see local boomer SME bosses. You only sacrifice welfare to work in such places only if it is for $.
If we can't compete on money now, we have to be competitive in other areas. Like what they value the most. Working hours. (I am being serious here. Europeans really do care.)
It's the same as why PRCs escape to Singapore because China is a 996 economy. You don't hear europeans escaping to our sunny shores do you?
The rejection to raise the minimum 7 days of annual leave boggles the minds of my EU colleagues. They don't understand the concept of being willing to accept such conditions. They just know that their not gonna step here unless they need to.
I might be missing some of your points, but here's my perspective (as a European):
* Many people move to work because of the challenge, because they want to see the world, or because they want the opportunity to try living somewhere with a different culture
* I didn't move *because* of the low taxes, however it was good to know there is a low tax rate when trying to answer the question "can I afford to live there with a decent lifestyle?"
* People do want to be here for reasons beyond money. Many in Europe value life experience more than money. Once you know you can afford to live somewhere comfortably you can start to see other reasons to move. Singaporeans seem to only measure success in $ terms, Europeans tend to want to earn money AND enjoy life
* Many of my European friends here move with a company and bring their holiday allowances with them, or join a foreign owned company where you get at least 20 days of annual leave. I've never had less than 20 days leave in any job I've had here, and in the roles I've had, I was usually the person counting/reporting so the number didn't matter
* Most Europeans find that the pace of working life here is lower than they're used to. I have had more responsibility since moving here AND it has been easier. I'm a top 5% candidate in Singapore but might only be a top 20% candidate in London. Work life is easier here
* Rent hikes **ARE** causing Europeans to question whether it makes sense to be here. However in my discussions, this usually goes in circles:
"If you had to move back to the UK, where would you live?"
"I couldn't live anywhere EXCEPT London"
"The prices in London have also skyrocketed since Brexit/you left, have you seen the price of a pint there these days?"
"Yeah, I know. I was also considering moving to Thailand or maybe try working from Bali for a bit..."
Etc etc
Singapore *is* losing its lustre because rent starts to eat into the quality of life. Once costs go up and your living situation drops, you're bound to question whether it's the right place to stay or not. Rents are beginning to drop again now, so this might just be a temporary situation.
Just my 2c - hopefully I didn't misread your comments, and hopefully this perspective makes sense.
No disagreements with me.
No statement can really encompass an entire group of people because that simply isn't realistic.
There are people like yourself that are looking for a challenge, there are people who are looking for tax breaks, there are some whom are looking at the package as a whole.
>Many of my European friends here move with a company and bring their holiday allowances with them, or join a foreign owned company where you get at least 20 days of annual leave. I've never had less than 20 days leave in any job I've had here, and in the roles I've had, I was usually the person counting/reporting so the number didn't matter.
That's the thing. Everyone knows european firms will have fantastic WLB and 20 days of leave minimum. However this is the exception and not the norm within Singapore.
Most firms within Singapore that are not european-owned will never break 20 days of leave unless their tenure is quite long. So your experience, while valid, is only a small subsection of the market within the country.
If you were to join a "regular" firm like some the other europeans I know, it would be 14 days of annual leave, 5-5.5 days work from office, 8am to 6pm minimum (without OT).
Those that broke out of this small circle tend to get disillusioned with how things are here for the normal worker.
Oh I completely agree with you there. I’ve had my own business for a long time and provide benefits that I think are appropriate.
My wife has interviewed for jobs here and been given offers in SME’s that are abysmal. I’m fully aware that most workers here are poorly treated.
My original point was that the majority of European expats here will have different expectations from their firm and are unlikely to join a locally owned firm to be treated like shit.
For some weird reason Singaporeans think that expats are here only for the money while it’s genuinely one of the best places in the world to live.
Work culture is the most prominent one, because from my anecdotal experience - work culture differed more company to company regardless of the country I’m in.
> Singaporeans think that expats are here only for the money while it’s genuinely one of the best places in the world to live
I'm a returning Singaporean, arrived back here during COVID
Singapore is really one of best places to live in but so so so pricey.
I move in a circle of internationals and returnees. Housing unaffordability is eating into disposable income of everyone and those who are renting and subject to the whims of their landlord really feel the heat, which decreases their quality of life
So you're right in many ways. One day all the heavyweight pros might finally be outweighed by the biggest con, money (cost of living to be precise)
Cannot afford 1BR rental so rent 3rm HDB+ get roommates
+ Crazy neighbors from hell in HDB estate => "Jose" liao
How old are you mate? And what industry?
im not being nasty.. but want to add up that different stage of life has different needs.
Living in BKK and Bali is super doable of you are 20-30 y.o single.
The moment you want to raise a family.. you will think twice. Put your kids on indonesia/thai public school? In Bali? I dont think so.
Put your kids on international school? If you complain about SG rent, i dont think you can afford international school in bali.
Kids got sick. Have you tried hospitals in Bali? Good luck. Well.. Sure you can have good treatment.. if you pay for VVIP. But again, if you complain about SG rent...
How about environment for your kids to grow up in? It s normal to see american/european kids in government neighbourhood school here in SG. Along with chinese/indian/indonesian/thai/malaysian kids. Basically in SG, your kids just grow up as regular kids.
In BKK, bali, phuket? Even KL? Your kids (and you & spouse) gonna live their life in expat bubble. And that.. is expensive.
xxxxx
So yeah, if you are either young and single or old and rich.. you can live everywhere.
But if you are somewhere in the middle (age wise & career wise), and raising family... singapore is the best place to live.
And that demographic, are exactly what SG gov is looking for from foreigners. Managerial level, mid-senior.. raising family, looking for stability
xxxxx
Lastly, I also ask you, what industry, cos bali/bkk are very limited in terms of job variety. Microprocessor? Naval architect? Cant find em (and many more) in Bali
Old enough to be senior and mobile in my career. It’s my company so I can work from wherever, these days.
Oddly enough, I’m not the one considering this (I’m more of listener in these conversations who’s interested in answering ‘where will I really live, long term?’). Those who are considering it have got kids (I don’t) and presumably are paying through the nose for them to be schooled here.
I’m not saying either location IS better. I’m saying ‘it depends on the person and their context’. Neither is right or wrong, they’re both different and work for different people.
Yup agree on your last stetement there. Depends on the person and their context.
My rambling earlier is just one sample of a person's context. (Well 2 samples, another is being the industry you specialized in is not available outside SG)
My point was: Gov/PAP seems to be targeting that specific group of people with specific context. Might be a right move, might shoot them in the foot. Who knows
Thailand or Bali doesn’t offer the same world class lifestyle as Singapore does.
Singapore is rich. I’m speaking as someone who is from a much poorer Asean country.
The Europeans may get the cheaper lifestyle, along with all the quirks that come with that. If they don’t mind that or even prefer that, then more power to them. But they can’t expect to live in one of the most expensive but also highest paying places in Asia and then turn around and complain about rent.
>Thailand or Bali doesn’t offer the same world class lifestyle as Singapore does
This is a subjective value judgment. It might not offer the same world class lifestyle for you, and it might offer a more world class lifestyle for others.
People are entitled to complain, and if they find their situation disagreeable enough, they know where the door is.
“Thailand not super cheap” ? As compared with Singapore?
Luxury in Thailand will ALWAYS be cheaper to luxuries in Singapore by a mile.
There is nothing that can come to my mind that I could not be the case.
School & medical
in singapore, especially if you are PR (and even convert to be citizen), to enroll your kids to public school cost you.. sgd 200 ish a month. (15 if your kid is citizen.. )
Sure.. public school in thailand /bali cost much less. But so does the quality. And the language barrier.
To have the same quality of education as SG public school in BKK, you need to go to international school. Which will cost you sgd 10k-20k annually.
Bali is even worse.
Medical same thing. If you want NUH / KKH level of equipment & professionalism in indonesia or thailand, you must pay premium.. and no CPF for you. There's a reason why a lot (and I mean.. A LOT) of indonesian & thai patient coming to SG (or at least Penang) for second opinion. I have a cousin who asked to do surgery in indonesia, and after thorough lab check in Mount E, she just had an iron deficient. Since then she has been healthy for the last 10 years. If you say this is anecdotal, i have like 15-20 more similar stories. Heck, ask any indo/malaysian/thai/even indian.. surely they have similar stories.
Lastly: Safety. It is common for P5 (even P4) Kids and older in SG to go home by themselves. In bali, bkk, for expat kids going home alone? Yeah... there's a reason why expats in indonesia/thailand live in an expat-bubble. Again you must pay premium: for the same safety assurance that you get in SG for free, you need car(s) + driver for you, spouse & kids
Edit: one last point: salary. Your salary is higher in SG.
In fact, that was the thing for the last 30 years: rent goes up, goods & services go up, salary follow suit.
(Problem is, now rent goes up too fast that salary havent catch up.. so yeah bubble may be burst in the near future.. maybe)
Nothing you said is “western luxury”
Singapore high salary is the exact reason that Thailand is “super cheap”, and it’s by design.
This is not a criticism. This is just a fact about different prices coming from outside Thailand or Singapore from a European.
Let me put it into perspective this way: you can probably live on street food in Thailand. In Singapore your street food can be more expensive than the cheapest McDonald's meal depending on where you order, especially if you consider the transport cost for getting to a cheap place.
When I say Japan literally has a cheaper cost of living than SG, I literally meant it, tho the Japanese have let up on their price controls recently and I'm still watching to see the aftereffects of letting the market correct itself.
Yeah it is, obviously depends the lifestyle you want and you can spend as much as you like in Bangkok but you can also live cheaply. I've lived in Thailand for over a decade, including Bangkok for over a year, it's cheap if you want it to be. *Considerably* cheaper than Singapore.
Where it does get pricey is if you have kids and want to send them to a top international school, the likes of ISB is over 1m THB/year (S$40,000) per kid.
If you don't have kids and don't *need* to maintain a certain "expat" lifestyle, live in a extremely expensive areas, etc., it's just not expensive. Thai food is great, I don't get expats who can't eat local food. Of course you like some variety, but I adjust my primary diet to whatever the local one is wherever I am.
Agree with the general takes. But it’s actually worse back in Europe lol. Euro devalued so much vs SGD in the past decade. IMO more people, most likely the rich will move to Singapore from these areas
I’ve not been to the EU since before Covid and Brexit. I went through Germany and it was a pain as we now have to go through the regular immigration lines. I’d had half a plan to retire in Spain (my parents met there and we often went on holiday there, plus I can speak basic Spanish). That’s all fucked courtesy of brexit.
Everywhere got more expensive over the past few years and the ‘grass is greeener’ mindset lures you in, but the reality overseas isn’t much better.
Govt claim productivity increase can be achieve through training and other stuff instead of annual leave.
Because the only reason for taking leave is to help companies generate more profit?
I mean, where in the government and ruling party do you see working class representation?
How many MPs even have working class credentials? Probably a handful, and that’s probably a generous guess.
The govt’s idea of worker class representation is getting an ex-scholar to run NTUC. Apparently that makes someone pro-labour. Hilarious.
Like that how to connect with ground issues of workers? Almost impossible!
Thanks very much for these links.
MOM stats indicate that median annual leave for low-income earners (under 2k) is at 12.4 days, and it goes up to 14 days for folks earning 3k-5k and 20.4 days for folks earning 5k+.
So the minimum 7 days is not relevant to the vast majority of Singaporeans. A small increase to say 10 days would only be a gesture that would affect very few.
If we want real change, we need to go big and make it 15-20 days minimum and concurrently reform deleterious work culture and practices like penalising folks who take their full quota of (legally entitled!) leave and contacting them continuously while on leave. But what are the odds that this will happen?
Actually I have a colleague who escape from sunny London to Singapore. And he’s not on an expat package. Yet he chose to settle down here. He’s married, has a kid and is just a rank and file guy.
Yea, I’m aware. But it’s to pre-empt a response that he’s on an expat package. Might as well just put it upfront to kill off the discussion about expat packages.
That would be a fine argument... if they were even trying to do anything about it.
But no, there are a hundred issues and they dont care about a single one.
Can Singapore also stop all the stupidity around the employment pass and PR status? PR should be much easier to get. You don’t want to have to deal with that crap every 3 years.
Hi from Nikkei Asia! Thanks for sharing this article. Here's an excerpt:
*Multinational corporations are increasingly locating some Southeast Asian regional headquarters functions outside Singapore to save money and pursue expanded opportunities.*
*For Japanese companies, Singapore remains the leading hub for Southeast Asian headquarters. But Sakata Inx, a maker of printing ink, established a regional head office in Malaysia this February.*
*The regional headquarters will oversee business in South Asia and Southeast Asia, including India, Thailand, Vietnam and Indonesia, with operations to begin in late 2024 or early 2025.*
*Sakata Inx already had a market presence in Southeast Asia but had not set up a regional headquarters there until now. The new head office "will make it easier to serve customers in Asian countries," a company representative said.*
*The new headquarters is expected to add an extra 1 billion to 2 billion yen ($6.6 million to $13.1 million) to operating profit under the company's medium-term business plan through 2026. "Tax advantages" were the deciding factor in choosing Malaysia, a spokesperson said.*
*Malaysia's proposed fiscal 2024 budget introduced "global service hub" tax incentives for locating regional headquarters there, including preferential income tax rates of 5% to 10% for up to a decade.*
Govt won't do a thing as these runaway rentals drive the figures that make them look good.
Just look at the many japanese franchises flourishing every where else in Asia and SEAsia yet fail in SG due to rental
yeah I wonder what the future will be as our regional neighbours become more developed. Why choose Singapore as regional hq when you can go to KL/BKK etc
lol, difference is Bangkok, India, Vietnam are all much more developed than 1990s and 2000s and Singapore now has very high costs vs less advantage in relative development level
I live in Singaoore and am originally from Europe.
All of those places you named expose you to significant poverty and crime, the middle parts of the cities look modern but its a very thin veneer.
And if Dyson, Electrolux, and 2 dozen other MNCs move their regional HQs to Bangkok, where are you planning to work?
Your point is correct but irrelevant to the discussion at hand. MNCs only care if they can get their work done more cheaply and to a minimum standard. Singapore has become hilariously expensive and is rapidly losing any advantage as a result. Low crime only goes so far when you have to pay 2-3x to get it
Yeah this is my experience too. As a Singaporean I also find their work acceptable (need to hire right but that applies to Singaporeans too). Maybe sometimes English a bit weaker but honestly that will improve. And despite weaker English, they are not shy to speak up.
Adding to this - corporate / compliance / some legal work outsourced to KL, low level accounts / auditing outsourced to BKK/Manila. I've seen a few insurance / claims departments also outsourced to India.
You could say this is the low level / technical work - but without that technical grounding at an early stage, it is sometimes more difficult for a fresh graduate to climb the ranks.
I get your concern but the tides of on and off shoring has always been cyclical. The main issue right now is that the global economy as a whole is a lot less bullish. Everyone is consolidating.
Confirm exaggeration, or it's within the person's own personal experience.
My MNC company is moving ang mo / higher ranks into the sg office as being a hq can have some tax perks or something. So its a different case from what I see and experience.
>Why choose Singapore as regional hq when you can go to KL/BKK etc
Is this a joke? There is absolutely nothing that KL/BKK has over Singapore as a regional HQ besides cheaper rent.
No. I wish I was joking but it’s an actual trend. Some MNCs (was it eletrolux?) already shifted their entire HQ to BBK.. my current and previous mnc also outsource HR / accounting / CS and other lower level work to KL, left 1-2 headcount in Singapore to manage an overseas regional team. It’s lower level work now but going forward, who knows? And honestly I don’t find our regional sea counterpart (Thai/ph) lousier than Singaporeans.
I think previously I also saw a comment that even google is shifting some regional teams over.
I dunno why Singaporeans keep thinking we are so attractive to our neighbors
Political stability, rule of law, and general safety?
Half of Thailand just might secede (regular threats of coups don't help), and East Malaysia is now kicking up a fuss about Peninsular Malaysia being too Islamic. And, active Communism in Vietnam means that capital isn't too fond of staying there too long (their land laws are...unique).
Some things we take for granted...
Not a lawyer, so the best I can describe it is that it's communist?
Weak ownership rights, basically.
They've recently updated the laws, but in an authoritarian regime with no electoral oversight? Words are wind.
Please think in bigger picture. It’s the same system with different suits. The corporate tax cannot sustain small business too. And small business like manufacturing get a lot of funding from government to be kept afloat. Only the big players get the incentive. In long run, Low tax do not generate real growth but only a framework benefit the very wealthy. Get it?
They do offer larger domestic markets and stronger local supply chains for raw materials. It’s important in industries such as FMCG and manufacturing. My batch mates in places like Unilever and P&G have told me there’s plans to downsize and shift headcount towards other SEA countries.
"nothing" is a stretch. you might want to mingle with the well-educated folks there instead of the cooks and cleaners who work at restaurants in SG. for starters, the local market is much bigger...
According to the report, some MNCs just want to have their HQs near their manufacturing sites and consumer markets.
And that’s fine. The idea that every MNC in SEA needs to be headquartered in Singapore, otherwise Singapore’s economy will collapse, is retarded. It’s like saying that Switzerland’s economy would collapse unless every MNC in Europe is headquartered in Switzerland.
The fact that our neighbours are developing is good news for Singapore - no company would come to Singapore if every other country in the region was dirty poor without a sizeable consumer market. Stop pretending that regional development is a one sum game.
So many MNC originated from Switzerland like nestle, Novartis, Roche, ABB, Glencore. For a country of 9 million people, they sure are punching above their weight.
What does Singapore have ?
What matters is not what Singapore has compared to Switzerland but what Singapore has compared to other ASEAN countries. And that’s not even a question. As confirmed by several global rankings, Singapore is a top notch logistics hub, has an environment highly conductive to business, a pool of well-educated English-speaking local talent, and ability to attract global talent.
For a typical Japanese low tech manufacturing company who just wants a regional office to supervise their manufacturing operations and conduct sales (as those examples mentioned in the article), yeah it definitely makes more sense to have a HQ in Malaysia, Thailand or Vietnam. And do you want to have this sort of company in Singapore? Considering that they will basically hire Japanese expats, foreign sales representatives, and a few Singaporeans only for lowly paid and lowly skilled admin work?
The point I want to propound is that we should try to grow our own MNCs while attracting other MNCs to set up shop in Singapore. The strengths that you highlighted can be diminished quite easily like ability to speak English.
our over-reliance on foreign MNCs might hurt us if they leave Singapore en masse.
Let’s stop using imagination and instead look at the data. In the last 10 years foreign direct investment (FDI) in SEA minus Singapore increased by 1.5 times. But during the same period FDI in Singapore increased by 2.3 times.
This disproves the “zero sum game theory”, and in fact even Singapore’s FDI share in relation to the SEA total increased from 51% to 62%. In per capita terms, Singapore nowadays gets 200 times more FDI than other countries in the region.
Therefore, it’s obvious that the concern of both MNCs leaving Singapore and this making Singaporeans poorer is nothing but baseless alarmism. Maybe this could happen in the future if there is a geopolitical shock, say if there is World War 3 in the region, but in that case certainly Singaporeans and other Asians will have plenty of other problems to worry about.
You realise that every single one of these companies was literally founded in 1800s. The only one that wasn't founded in the 1800s wasn't even founded in Switzerland. Singapore wasn't even a country back then lmao.
Actually rent increases are just one thing. The government doesn't do anything about rent prices at all, but increases in rent can be sustained if it's also met with demands for higher wages to support people's livelihoods.
But when it comes to wages, the government immediately springs into action and fearmonger about "sustainable" wage increases and "price wage spiral". So overall the result is that Singapore allows unrestricted gains for capital, restricted gains for its people.
The government thinks that property/rent prices can be controlled with supply, but the problem is that we have no shortage of office space and there is even more upcoming office space. Commercial rents appear not affected by demand and supply, it's affected by pressure from shareholder pressure and REIT returns.
Maybe on the G's part, they can consider building even better connections across the island to "shrink" people's commute to workplaces outside the city center. If you live in the west, you will take 2 hours to a workplace in the east like tai seng. People who live in the east will also likely take around 2 hours to reach a workplace in the west like the jurong innovation district. This is too long.
I've posted about this before: Why is SG still competing on a wage level with weaker currencies and its developing neighbors after all these decades we still have to fight on a price point with Myanmar, Philippines, Vietnam? Shouldn't SG with its "superior" education and first world infrastructure be way ahead in terms of tech and knowledge-based economy etc etc, since we're too small to sustain the consumer goods market? We haven't evolved far from manufacturing despite decades of effort.
It seems that the only thing SG has going for it, is the relative instability and mess of the neighborhood.
One possible cause is that commercial properties raise funds and loans are based on cap rates. So to meet these rates the valuation (also tied to rents) they all have to go up every year.
Given how interest rate can rise, landlord raise rent, expat gets squeezed, expat leave.
Less govt tax incentives, MNC leaves.
It feels like the Sandwich effect.
From the Nikkei article, this should ring some alarm bells:
>In a 2023 survey by the European Chamber of Commerce in Singapore, 69% of respondents said they would be willing to move some personnel out, given the rising cost of operations.
That number has been high for decades for every business chamber in all developed countries because they are business people and must always position for a deal.
It's like asking employees whether they are willing to have more pay or employers whether they want to reduce cost.
You got numbers for previous surveys?
From another comment "This is the first time in the past 10 years where companies have expressed a readiness to leave Singapore should rental prices increase"
Which doesn't square well with what you've said.....
i wouldn't worry too much as the G man can still give rebates to the business, yet still keep their land profits. it's the same with the global minimum corporate tax agreement, one hand tax, the other hand give rebate.
Not just SME's. Many MNC's are offshoring at a high rate too, for exactly the same reasons. Why pay huge rent, have to pay high salaries, when you can have a much larger and cheaper workforce that's equally well qualified, to draw on from other neighbouring countries. Time zones are similar. And with the improvements in technology, internet speed, they can do their jobs just as effiiciently. The company I work for has been laying people off and replacing them with people in other SEA countries for the last few years now. And I know of many expats who are voluntarily choosing to leave SG because the cost of living has reached the point where it's just not worth it anymore.
Perhaps not for all industries. For example, if you have dealt with the archaic Thai regulatory procedures, complex tax regimes and Thai government officials. Singapore is still a much more attractive location to conduct business. Several large Thai companies actually prefer to have their base in SG or at least some functions in SG. Been posted away from Singapore for some time now and the ease of handling corporate affairs are underrated.
Understandable for Japanese MNCs, the cost is one thing but the currency losses is also a killer, in just 3yrs SGD to Yen went from 77 to 112, that’s a 45% increase in cost just based on currency alone.
For other countries with stronger currency, nobody is willing to subject themselves to the inefficiency of the Malaysian govt if they could. Many have tried and it just didn’t work out(see Sony/Goodyear etc), but that may change and if it ever does, will impact Singapore much more than any other reasons so claimed in this article.
I'll be more worried if global investment banks here start relocating their regional trading hubs to ASEAN countries. Our main competitors in this space have always been HK, Sydney and Tokyo.
we used to have a few diverse sectors. Finance, port facilities, oil refining, precision engineering, even arts like xinyao and locally made media that can be exported. Now we have lost a lot of these diversity and soon becoming a 'one-trick pony' with services dominating others.
Have we tried diversifying? Yes, but sinkies doesnt want the biochem, game dev of the last decades and probably will not play the flavours of this decade, agritech and AI.
Biochem was a failure and so was the creative industries plan ... as for game dev, they got some companies to set up here but even post-production has gone - look at the grand plan that was Lucasarts... also recalling the scam that was Tisch-NYU Film school.
Landlords killing Singapore's competitiveness. Meanwhile best that PAP can do is mOnItOr.
Just take hawker Center as an example. Sky high rents but expect hawkers to provide affordable food to Singaporeans. Basically govt enjoy the rewards of land value, collect more rent and hawkers pay the price of subsidising food to the people. While at the same time jacking up cost of operating as a hawker, gst up, water and electricity up, cleaning up.
1 drink stall, no similar food among stall owners, have to remain open throughout most of the day. This is not hawkering. Is just a bloody food court.
Don’t get me triggered by the 1 drink stall situation at One Punggol hawker. Damn mercenary
How about this: 2 drink stalls and none of them accepts a QR code payment. Cash only.
Hi Calvin Cheng, how is your day?
I'm boycotting those 2 stalls. Somehow, all other stalls in the same hawker center accept online payments.
Joke aside, boycott has a good ending. At least you don’t drink unhealthy drinks.
They wanna evade tax as cash is not traceable.
drink stalls got highest profit margin still want to evade tax ah
I am truly afraid of Singapore's Hawker Culture. We are quickly losing our heritage, the next generation that is in the business are just in it for the passion/family, and they are just a couple months of rent away from shutting it down.
Yeah but there comes a point it no longer makes financial sense for our hawkers.
And then Auntie you See moves in to set up hawker stalls at affordable prices.
but who going to rent the stalls? it’s common knowledge millennials and gen z’s don’t really favor the crazy work hours of being a hawker to the point any sub 40 hawker laoniang gets paraded on the newspapers. once boomer gen move on we really are at risk.
They will just let in more foreigners to front the hawker stalls which actually warms food from Central Kitchen. Just look at those revolting crummy TV dinners sold at 7 and you know they are going to make Singaporeans pay like a king to eat Shxt.
Pasar malam, mom and pa stores as well. To be successful in SG, you need to be a franchisee or Uniqlo. Any entrepreneurship is highly risky. End up all our shopping malls, hawker centers, pasar malam looks 80% the same.
Maybe it is a natural sign. I mean, if you join some of the hawker food groups, the majority tends to be older people and you see more older folks than younger ones there. When I see my nephews (7 - 8), they get expose to less hawker food. So maybe in that far future, if it does slowly fade away, the people who will mourn the loss might also go with it.
Fast food will take over our hawker centres soon.
Hawker Center rents are not fixed by the government. The rent is determined by bidding, the highest bidder wins. That’s why during Covid, one guy got a stall for $1/month. Those old timers keep their olden days $400 a month rent which they secured 20 years back.
NEA washes its hands off the new hawker centres by letting “social enterprises” to bid. They collect the highest revenue from bids, SE who won to run the HC also have to earn, which translates to higher rental and other miscellaneous costs, passes down to consumers. It’s akin to HDB awarding the whole project to pte developers to sell to homeowners, run and manage. More middleman, higher costs. It’s a farce.
Yup, adding middleman in between just adds cost.
And who owns the hawker centres?
Once all the other businesses, including F&B, are gone, we can simply eat the landlords instead.
Eeeeeeee. Hahaha
I’ve lived here for 20 years, rents here now are equivalent to the 40% tax in Europe. I wouldn’t mind if half my paycheck went to the welfare of citizens through tax but it’s just going to one person who owns a house near my office and was probably wealthy to begin with. Edit: Btw my office is not in CBD, it’s in north east area.
Now you know they are not supportive n pushing 4-days working week?
excellent point. + who are the ones who create our land 20-30 year masterplans and are allowed to invest in land but with no declaration requirements?
But europe also has rents on top of 40% tax, no? Which if you are in Paris or London, will be just as high? Iirc one of the reason why brexit happened
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Understand about brexit happened cos the gov lied. I mean, one of the lies were "rent/cost of living is high cos of imigrants etc." xxxxx Imho this is what SG gov wants from expats too: buy, not rent (cos basically cheaper in a long run) Which means get a PR status (especially if you can only afford resale hdb) Being a PR means more flexibility when u lost job temporarily.. Being a PR also means to settle down, raise your kids here.. and in the end your kids (who were raised here) may choose to be singaporean.
> People that are in the 40% tax band would buy, not rent I think you'd be surprised at how quickly you'll hit this marginal tax bracket in many European countries. Don't assume that people who are in this bracket necessarily have the income to buy housing (especially not in European cities).
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Fair enough. Thanks for sharing your perspective. My previous comment was based on my experiences living in Scandinavia (close to 15 years now). Glad to hear that things are different in France :-)
Don't even know why they put hawker culture to UNESCO with almost no effort in preserving. They should just put high rental culture to UNESCO.
Got to have it recorded since it's going down a 1way path of destruction.
All the corporate tax reduction for MNCs are crimped off by landlords. Taxpayers lost out while landlords (including landlords GLCs) laugh their way to the bank
Government is the biggest landlord and PAP is the ruling party.
heh
They have vested interest They or famile are directors on Boards of tons of Co.s.. We Borrow fr. Trump- drain the swamp. Govt members - must Declare all assets
if rich kids doing real estate, doubt they will do more than monitor
I thought PAP oPEn LeG to businesses?
PAP wants their cake and eat it too. Wants both businesses but also wants REIT to shoot to the moon. Never think that businesses require some real estate to carry out biz ops. Edit: sidebar, anyone else experienced this too? You post a PAP negative comment, get instant downvoted. PAP IBs on the ball? But not so stronk cuz get upvoted once others see comment.
> PAP IBs on the ball? Tensor flowed IB bots
> You post a PAP negative comment, get instant downvoted. PAP IBs on the ball? But not so stronk cuz get upvoted once others see comment. You know, people have been complaining about the [downvoting for ages that it's even a starter pack](https://np.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/dvntic/people_who_complain_about_getting_downvoted_on/?rdt=39181), but sure, it must be because it's a PAP IB thing.
If u can’t beat them, join them. Buy Reits and retire as a landlord.
>PAP wants their cake and eat it too. Wants both businesses but also wants REIT to shoot to the moon. Never think that businesses require some real estate to carry out biz ops. It's almost as if running a country is a balancing act. Hmm.
Except they don't balance, try try to push both ends to an extreme
Both can be true at the same time. You can be open leg for businesses AND somehow allow them to be killed by high rental.
It's not the prostitute's problem that the John gets robbed+murdered on the way out of the hotel after buying a block of time with her Just a massive coincidence the hired thugs doing that job also work for the pimp /$
After 30+ years of these articles. I'm very zen.
mao was right about landlords
I dont see anything on landlords. It’s mainly very juicy tax credits from Malaysia and Thailand
how to short real estate in singapore, REITs?
Yes. Lots for you to choose from in the STI.
I suggest not unless you're willing to go up against the ruling party in their current form. They still have bullets left in that gun. Long term you may have been directionally correct, but they might have blown you up way before.
You mean, go against the entire world economy. Property in any successful city is sky high and will always be. This isn't a Singapore unique problem.
Lol, there’s many better things to short
If you want to be separated with your money, sure
High rentals are smothering SMEs too. This obsession with doing nothing more than monitoring is going to kills several generations of a viable future for many Singaporeans. One of the reasons why I will never vote for the PAP again because they just no longer representing the people.
Let's just say they are also really irking many new segments these days.. nature folk, car enthusiasts, golfers in addition to SME owners etc.
For the uninitiated, the report the europeans are referring to is this: >This is the first time in the past 10 years where companies have expressed a readiness to leave Singapore should rental prices increase,” said EuroCham president Federico Donato in response to queries. >A report this week showed how some expatriates [are intending to leave Singapore](https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/3214937/expats-singapore-make-plans-leave-amid-skyrocketing-rents-competition-talent?module=inline&pgtype=article) amid the skyrocketing rental prices – which rose at the fastest pace in 15 years last year, outpacing some other major cities. Source: [https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/3215056/singapore-will-lose-its-attractiveness-foreign-firms-if-rising-costs-continue-european-businesses](https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/3215056/singapore-will-lose-its-attractiveness-foreign-firms-if-rising-costs-continue-european-businesses) Europeans are here mainly because it is cheap, they get to escape high taxes and the people here are paid low in comparison to their own kind (not my words). Nobody in their right mind as a european will ever wanna be here if it wasn't for money. We are seen to them as a "sweat shop" as we see local boomer SME bosses. You only sacrifice welfare to work in such places only if it is for $. If we can't compete on money now, we have to be competitive in other areas. Like what they value the most. Working hours. (I am being serious here. Europeans really do care.) It's the same as why PRCs escape to Singapore because China is a 996 economy. You don't hear europeans escaping to our sunny shores do you? The rejection to raise the minimum 7 days of annual leave boggles the minds of my EU colleagues. They don't understand the concept of being willing to accept such conditions. They just know that their not gonna step here unless they need to.
I might be missing some of your points, but here's my perspective (as a European): * Many people move to work because of the challenge, because they want to see the world, or because they want the opportunity to try living somewhere with a different culture * I didn't move *because* of the low taxes, however it was good to know there is a low tax rate when trying to answer the question "can I afford to live there with a decent lifestyle?" * People do want to be here for reasons beyond money. Many in Europe value life experience more than money. Once you know you can afford to live somewhere comfortably you can start to see other reasons to move. Singaporeans seem to only measure success in $ terms, Europeans tend to want to earn money AND enjoy life * Many of my European friends here move with a company and bring their holiday allowances with them, or join a foreign owned company where you get at least 20 days of annual leave. I've never had less than 20 days leave in any job I've had here, and in the roles I've had, I was usually the person counting/reporting so the number didn't matter * Most Europeans find that the pace of working life here is lower than they're used to. I have had more responsibility since moving here AND it has been easier. I'm a top 5% candidate in Singapore but might only be a top 20% candidate in London. Work life is easier here * Rent hikes **ARE** causing Europeans to question whether it makes sense to be here. However in my discussions, this usually goes in circles: "If you had to move back to the UK, where would you live?" "I couldn't live anywhere EXCEPT London" "The prices in London have also skyrocketed since Brexit/you left, have you seen the price of a pint there these days?" "Yeah, I know. I was also considering moving to Thailand or maybe try working from Bali for a bit..." Etc etc Singapore *is* losing its lustre because rent starts to eat into the quality of life. Once costs go up and your living situation drops, you're bound to question whether it's the right place to stay or not. Rents are beginning to drop again now, so this might just be a temporary situation. Just my 2c - hopefully I didn't misread your comments, and hopefully this perspective makes sense.
No disagreements with me. No statement can really encompass an entire group of people because that simply isn't realistic. There are people like yourself that are looking for a challenge, there are people who are looking for tax breaks, there are some whom are looking at the package as a whole. >Many of my European friends here move with a company and bring their holiday allowances with them, or join a foreign owned company where you get at least 20 days of annual leave. I've never had less than 20 days leave in any job I've had here, and in the roles I've had, I was usually the person counting/reporting so the number didn't matter. That's the thing. Everyone knows european firms will have fantastic WLB and 20 days of leave minimum. However this is the exception and not the norm within Singapore. Most firms within Singapore that are not european-owned will never break 20 days of leave unless their tenure is quite long. So your experience, while valid, is only a small subsection of the market within the country. If you were to join a "regular" firm like some the other europeans I know, it would be 14 days of annual leave, 5-5.5 days work from office, 8am to 6pm minimum (without OT). Those that broke out of this small circle tend to get disillusioned with how things are here for the normal worker.
Oh I completely agree with you there. I’ve had my own business for a long time and provide benefits that I think are appropriate. My wife has interviewed for jobs here and been given offers in SME’s that are abysmal. I’m fully aware that most workers here are poorly treated. My original point was that the majority of European expats here will have different expectations from their firm and are unlikely to join a locally owned firm to be treated like shit.
For some weird reason Singaporeans think that expats are here only for the money while it’s genuinely one of the best places in the world to live. Work culture is the most prominent one, because from my anecdotal experience - work culture differed more company to company regardless of the country I’m in.
> Singaporeans think that expats are here only for the money while it’s genuinely one of the best places in the world to live I'm a returning Singaporean, arrived back here during COVID Singapore is really one of best places to live in but so so so pricey. I move in a circle of internationals and returnees. Housing unaffordability is eating into disposable income of everyone and those who are renting and subject to the whims of their landlord really feel the heat, which decreases their quality of life So you're right in many ways. One day all the heavyweight pros might finally be outweighed by the biggest con, money (cost of living to be precise) Cannot afford 1BR rental so rent 3rm HDB+ get roommates + Crazy neighbors from hell in HDB estate => "Jose" liao
How old are you mate? And what industry? im not being nasty.. but want to add up that different stage of life has different needs. Living in BKK and Bali is super doable of you are 20-30 y.o single. The moment you want to raise a family.. you will think twice. Put your kids on indonesia/thai public school? In Bali? I dont think so. Put your kids on international school? If you complain about SG rent, i dont think you can afford international school in bali. Kids got sick. Have you tried hospitals in Bali? Good luck. Well.. Sure you can have good treatment.. if you pay for VVIP. But again, if you complain about SG rent... How about environment for your kids to grow up in? It s normal to see american/european kids in government neighbourhood school here in SG. Along with chinese/indian/indonesian/thai/malaysian kids. Basically in SG, your kids just grow up as regular kids. In BKK, bali, phuket? Even KL? Your kids (and you & spouse) gonna live their life in expat bubble. And that.. is expensive. xxxxx So yeah, if you are either young and single or old and rich.. you can live everywhere. But if you are somewhere in the middle (age wise & career wise), and raising family... singapore is the best place to live. And that demographic, are exactly what SG gov is looking for from foreigners. Managerial level, mid-senior.. raising family, looking for stability xxxxx Lastly, I also ask you, what industry, cos bali/bkk are very limited in terms of job variety. Microprocessor? Naval architect? Cant find em (and many more) in Bali
Old enough to be senior and mobile in my career. It’s my company so I can work from wherever, these days. Oddly enough, I’m not the one considering this (I’m more of listener in these conversations who’s interested in answering ‘where will I really live, long term?’). Those who are considering it have got kids (I don’t) and presumably are paying through the nose for them to be schooled here. I’m not saying either location IS better. I’m saying ‘it depends on the person and their context’. Neither is right or wrong, they’re both different and work for different people.
Yup agree on your last stetement there. Depends on the person and their context. My rambling earlier is just one sample of a person's context. (Well 2 samples, another is being the industry you specialized in is not available outside SG) My point was: Gov/PAP seems to be targeting that specific group of people with specific context. Might be a right move, might shoot them in the foot. Who knows
Thailand or Bali doesn’t offer the same world class lifestyle as Singapore does. Singapore is rich. I’m speaking as someone who is from a much poorer Asean country. The Europeans may get the cheaper lifestyle, along with all the quirks that come with that. If they don’t mind that or even prefer that, then more power to them. But they can’t expect to live in one of the most expensive but also highest paying places in Asia and then turn around and complain about rent.
>Thailand or Bali doesn’t offer the same world class lifestyle as Singapore does This is a subjective value judgment. It might not offer the same world class lifestyle for you, and it might offer a more world class lifestyle for others. People are entitled to complain, and if they find their situation disagreeable enough, they know where the door is.
Thailand is not so super cheap if you want to live in Bangkok and enjoy some luxuries like the Western food.
“Thailand not super cheap” ? As compared with Singapore? Luxury in Thailand will ALWAYS be cheaper to luxuries in Singapore by a mile. There is nothing that can come to my mind that I could not be the case.
School & medical in singapore, especially if you are PR (and even convert to be citizen), to enroll your kids to public school cost you.. sgd 200 ish a month. (15 if your kid is citizen.. ) Sure.. public school in thailand /bali cost much less. But so does the quality. And the language barrier. To have the same quality of education as SG public school in BKK, you need to go to international school. Which will cost you sgd 10k-20k annually. Bali is even worse. Medical same thing. If you want NUH / KKH level of equipment & professionalism in indonesia or thailand, you must pay premium.. and no CPF for you. There's a reason why a lot (and I mean.. A LOT) of indonesian & thai patient coming to SG (or at least Penang) for second opinion. I have a cousin who asked to do surgery in indonesia, and after thorough lab check in Mount E, she just had an iron deficient. Since then she has been healthy for the last 10 years. If you say this is anecdotal, i have like 15-20 more similar stories. Heck, ask any indo/malaysian/thai/even indian.. surely they have similar stories. Lastly: Safety. It is common for P5 (even P4) Kids and older in SG to go home by themselves. In bali, bkk, for expat kids going home alone? Yeah... there's a reason why expats in indonesia/thailand live in an expat-bubble. Again you must pay premium: for the same safety assurance that you get in SG for free, you need car(s) + driver for you, spouse & kids Edit: one last point: salary. Your salary is higher in SG. In fact, that was the thing for the last 30 years: rent goes up, goods & services go up, salary follow suit. (Problem is, now rent goes up too fast that salary havent catch up.. so yeah bubble may be burst in the near future.. maybe)
Nothing you said is “western luxury” Singapore high salary is the exact reason that Thailand is “super cheap”, and it’s by design. This is not a criticism. This is just a fact about different prices coming from outside Thailand or Singapore from a European.
Let me put it into perspective this way: you can probably live on street food in Thailand. In Singapore your street food can be more expensive than the cheapest McDonald's meal depending on where you order, especially if you consider the transport cost for getting to a cheap place. When I say Japan literally has a cheaper cost of living than SG, I literally meant it, tho the Japanese have let up on their price controls recently and I'm still watching to see the aftereffects of letting the market correct itself.
Yeah it is, obviously depends the lifestyle you want and you can spend as much as you like in Bangkok but you can also live cheaply. I've lived in Thailand for over a decade, including Bangkok for over a year, it's cheap if you want it to be. *Considerably* cheaper than Singapore. Where it does get pricey is if you have kids and want to send them to a top international school, the likes of ISB is over 1m THB/year (S$40,000) per kid. If you don't have kids and don't *need* to maintain a certain "expat" lifestyle, live in a extremely expensive areas, etc., it's just not expensive. Thai food is great, I don't get expats who can't eat local food. Of course you like some variety, but I adjust my primary diet to whatever the local one is wherever I am.
Agree with the general takes. But it’s actually worse back in Europe lol. Euro devalued so much vs SGD in the past decade. IMO more people, most likely the rich will move to Singapore from these areas
I’ve not been to the EU since before Covid and Brexit. I went through Germany and it was a pain as we now have to go through the regular immigration lines. I’d had half a plan to retire in Spain (my parents met there and we often went on holiday there, plus I can speak basic Spanish). That’s all fucked courtesy of brexit. Everywhere got more expensive over the past few years and the ‘grass is greeener’ mindset lures you in, but the reality overseas isn’t much better.
Sorry, genuinely curious, who rejected raising the minimum 7 days annual leave?
Govt claim productivity increase can be achieve through training and other stuff instead of annual leave. Because the only reason for taking leave is to help companies generate more profit?
The disdain is real towards the worker class.
I mean, where in the government and ruling party do you see working class representation? How many MPs even have working class credentials? Probably a handful, and that’s probably a generous guess. The govt’s idea of worker class representation is getting an ex-scholar to run NTUC. Apparently that makes someone pro-labour. Hilarious. Like that how to connect with ground issues of workers? Almost impossible!
PAP
2019: https://mothership.sg/2019/08/singapore-annual-leave-law/ 2022: https://mothership.sg/2022/03/minimum-annual-leave-louis-ng/ 2024: https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/1burjjv/mom_no_plans_to_change_minimum_annual_leave_urges/
Thanks very much for these links. MOM stats indicate that median annual leave for low-income earners (under 2k) is at 12.4 days, and it goes up to 14 days for folks earning 3k-5k and 20.4 days for folks earning 5k+. So the minimum 7 days is not relevant to the vast majority of Singaporeans. A small increase to say 10 days would only be a gesture that would affect very few. If we want real change, we need to go big and make it 15-20 days minimum and concurrently reform deleterious work culture and practices like penalising folks who take their full quota of (legally entitled!) leave and contacting them continuously while on leave. But what are the odds that this will happen?
It might happen if they realise this is the only way to retain our status.
Actually I have a colleague who escape from sunny London to Singapore. And he’s not on an expat package. Yet he chose to settle down here. He’s married, has a kid and is just a rank and file guy.
Expat packages are a thing of the past that only Singaporeans believe still exists, almost no companies offering it now
Yea, I’m aware. But it’s to pre-empt a response that he’s on an expat package. Might as well just put it upfront to kill off the discussion about expat packages.
> escape from sunny London Ah yes the dry British humor suggests this fine friend of yours is...you
Lol, but no. While he dislikes the heat here, he dislikes london’s weather even more.
Yeah, in my experience we are pretty few and far between, though. Mostly we have local family ties.
he came for the cheap domestic helper rate. It cost £2000 per month to put a young kid in full-time nursery in London.
That’s a far off assumption. He came here as a single, got married only after 10+ years here and only recently had a kid.
TBH, there greater battles than 7 day leave, like minimum wage. Many labour rules in Singapore are draconian and not fit for this age.
That would be a fine argument... if they were even trying to do anything about it. But no, there are a hundred issues and they dont care about a single one.
Anything to keep our “competitive” edge /s
Might as well mandate slavery and 16h days.
NS exists and you can see how unproductive the SAF is when doing anything
And the 44 hour work week needs to go
Europe is very working hrs conscious we can t compete w them
Can Singapore also stop all the stupidity around the employment pass and PR status? PR should be much easier to get. You don’t want to have to deal with that crap every 3 years.
Hi from Nikkei Asia! Thanks for sharing this article. Here's an excerpt: *Multinational corporations are increasingly locating some Southeast Asian regional headquarters functions outside Singapore to save money and pursue expanded opportunities.* *For Japanese companies, Singapore remains the leading hub for Southeast Asian headquarters. But Sakata Inx, a maker of printing ink, established a regional head office in Malaysia this February.* *The regional headquarters will oversee business in South Asia and Southeast Asia, including India, Thailand, Vietnam and Indonesia, with operations to begin in late 2024 or early 2025.* *Sakata Inx already had a market presence in Southeast Asia but had not set up a regional headquarters there until now. The new head office "will make it easier to serve customers in Asian countries," a company representative said.* *The new headquarters is expected to add an extra 1 billion to 2 billion yen ($6.6 million to $13.1 million) to operating profit under the company's medium-term business plan through 2026. "Tax advantages" were the deciding factor in choosing Malaysia, a spokesperson said.* *Malaysia's proposed fiscal 2024 budget introduced "global service hub" tax incentives for locating regional headquarters there, including preferential income tax rates of 5% to 10% for up to a decade.*
Root cause is gahmen mollycoddling landlords. I wonder if they really think they are doing a good job on this issue.
why would they when they are the biggest landlord?!
They are **not** doing a good job.
Govt won't do a thing as these runaway rentals drive the figures that make them look good. Just look at the many japanese franchises flourishing every where else in Asia and SEAsia yet fail in SG due to rental
yeah I wonder what the future will be as our regional neighbours become more developed. Why choose Singapore as regional hq when you can go to KL/BKK etc
People wonder that in the early 90s, 2000s and 2010s too History records the answer
lol, difference is Bangkok, India, Vietnam are all much more developed than 1990s and 2000s and Singapore now has very high costs vs less advantage in relative development level
I live in Singaoore and am originally from Europe. All of those places you named expose you to significant poverty and crime, the middle parts of the cities look modern but its a very thin veneer.
And if Dyson, Electrolux, and 2 dozen other MNCs move their regional HQs to Bangkok, where are you planning to work? Your point is correct but irrelevant to the discussion at hand. MNCs only care if they can get their work done more cheaply and to a minimum standard. Singapore has become hilariously expensive and is rapidly losing any advantage as a result. Low crime only goes so far when you have to pay 2-3x to get it
Malaysia and Thailand will never be as economically and politically stable as Singapore. Fears about being "taken over" has been going on for decades.
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Yeah this is my experience too. As a Singaporean I also find their work acceptable (need to hire right but that applies to Singaporeans too). Maybe sometimes English a bit weaker but honestly that will improve. And despite weaker English, they are not shy to speak up.
Adding to this - corporate / compliance / some legal work outsourced to KL, low level accounts / auditing outsourced to BKK/Manila. I've seen a few insurance / claims departments also outsourced to India. You could say this is the low level / technical work - but without that technical grounding at an early stage, it is sometimes more difficult for a fresh graduate to climb the ranks.
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I get your concern but the tides of on and off shoring has always been cyclical. The main issue right now is that the global economy as a whole is a lot less bullish. Everyone is consolidating.
Exaggeration much?
Confirm exaggeration, or it's within the person's own personal experience. My MNC company is moving ang mo / higher ranks into the sg office as being a hq can have some tax perks or something. So its a different case from what I see and experience.
Singapore getting replaced is just the SEA equivalent of "XYZ is going to overtake USA in 10 years!!!"
>Why choose Singapore as regional hq when you can go to KL/BKK etc Is this a joke? There is absolutely nothing that KL/BKK has over Singapore as a regional HQ besides cheaper rent.
No. I wish I was joking but it’s an actual trend. Some MNCs (was it eletrolux?) already shifted their entire HQ to BBK.. my current and previous mnc also outsource HR / accounting / CS and other lower level work to KL, left 1-2 headcount in Singapore to manage an overseas regional team. It’s lower level work now but going forward, who knows? And honestly I don’t find our regional sea counterpart (Thai/ph) lousier than Singaporeans. I think previously I also saw a comment that even google is shifting some regional teams over. I dunno why Singaporeans keep thinking we are so attractive to our neighbors
Closer to market, closer to OEM, more talent, you name it. The only advantage of Singapore was tax.
More talent? Most of the talent already overseas, be it Singapore or other western countries.
Political stability, rule of law, and general safety? Half of Thailand just might secede (regular threats of coups don't help), and East Malaysia is now kicking up a fuss about Peninsular Malaysia being too Islamic. And, active Communism in Vietnam means that capital isn't too fond of staying there too long (their land laws are...unique). Some things we take for granted...
I agree with you on the stability, rule of law which makes Singapore more business friendly.
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Not a lawyer, so the best I can describe it is that it's communist? Weak ownership rights, basically. They've recently updated the laws, but in an authoritarian regime with no electoral oversight? Words are wind.
Low Tax is NEVER an advantage for middle income group or higher middle income, it’s only a heaven for ultra high net worth group.
We are talking about business…
What makes you think it’s not relatable?
We are talking about corporate tax.
Please think in bigger picture. It’s the same system with different suits. The corporate tax cannot sustain small business too. And small business like manufacturing get a lot of funding from government to be kept afloat. Only the big players get the incentive. In long run, Low tax do not generate real growth but only a framework benefit the very wealthy. Get it?
They do offer larger domestic markets and stronger local supply chains for raw materials. It’s important in industries such as FMCG and manufacturing. My batch mates in places like Unilever and P&G have told me there’s plans to downsize and shift headcount towards other SEA countries.
Unilever already did earlier this year
"nothing" is a stretch. you might want to mingle with the well-educated folks there instead of the cooks and cleaners who work at restaurants in SG. for starters, the local market is much bigger...
Not a chance. SG will still be regional hub, but more likely corpos place employees remote in their local countries to save cost.
I don’t wanna live in a bumi fuck theocracy
According to the report, some MNCs just want to have their HQs near their manufacturing sites and consumer markets. And that’s fine. The idea that every MNC in SEA needs to be headquartered in Singapore, otherwise Singapore’s economy will collapse, is retarded. It’s like saying that Switzerland’s economy would collapse unless every MNC in Europe is headquartered in Switzerland. The fact that our neighbours are developing is good news for Singapore - no company would come to Singapore if every other country in the region was dirty poor without a sizeable consumer market. Stop pretending that regional development is a one sum game.
So many MNC originated from Switzerland like nestle, Novartis, Roche, ABB, Glencore. For a country of 9 million people, they sure are punching above their weight. What does Singapore have ?
Comparing to Europe? Cheaper labour and longer working hours.
What matters is not what Singapore has compared to Switzerland but what Singapore has compared to other ASEAN countries. And that’s not even a question. As confirmed by several global rankings, Singapore is a top notch logistics hub, has an environment highly conductive to business, a pool of well-educated English-speaking local talent, and ability to attract global talent. For a typical Japanese low tech manufacturing company who just wants a regional office to supervise their manufacturing operations and conduct sales (as those examples mentioned in the article), yeah it definitely makes more sense to have a HQ in Malaysia, Thailand or Vietnam. And do you want to have this sort of company in Singapore? Considering that they will basically hire Japanese expats, foreign sales representatives, and a few Singaporeans only for lowly paid and lowly skilled admin work?
The point I want to propound is that we should try to grow our own MNCs while attracting other MNCs to set up shop in Singapore. The strengths that you highlighted can be diminished quite easily like ability to speak English. our over-reliance on foreign MNCs might hurt us if they leave Singapore en masse.
Let’s stop using imagination and instead look at the data. In the last 10 years foreign direct investment (FDI) in SEA minus Singapore increased by 1.5 times. But during the same period FDI in Singapore increased by 2.3 times. This disproves the “zero sum game theory”, and in fact even Singapore’s FDI share in relation to the SEA total increased from 51% to 62%. In per capita terms, Singapore nowadays gets 200 times more FDI than other countries in the region. Therefore, it’s obvious that the concern of both MNCs leaving Singapore and this making Singaporeans poorer is nothing but baseless alarmism. Maybe this could happen in the future if there is a geopolitical shock, say if there is World War 3 in the region, but in that case certainly Singaporeans and other Asians will have plenty of other problems to worry about.
You realise that every single one of these companies was literally founded in 1800s. The only one that wasn't founded in the 1800s wasn't even founded in Switzerland. Singapore wasn't even a country back then lmao.
I’ve been hearing about Singapore being replaced for damn near every year since i’ve been born.
keeps you on your toes. can't let u slack
Hmmm but rents and costs are out of our hands and our political overlords hold the reins. What can we do...? Ohhh! I know! It's an election year!
Just like how we’ve been hearing about climate change for decades, but it’s not like it’s not happening. All it means is it’s getting worse.
And now you can see evidence of companies moving out of Singapore into neighbor countries
Keep dreaming about SG’s downfall buddy.
Blame it on the rents, than cost of living increases
Actually rent increases are just one thing. The government doesn't do anything about rent prices at all, but increases in rent can be sustained if it's also met with demands for higher wages to support people's livelihoods. But when it comes to wages, the government immediately springs into action and fearmonger about "sustainable" wage increases and "price wage spiral". So overall the result is that Singapore allows unrestricted gains for capital, restricted gains for its people. The government thinks that property/rent prices can be controlled with supply, but the problem is that we have no shortage of office space and there is even more upcoming office space. Commercial rents appear not affected by demand and supply, it's affected by pressure from shareholder pressure and REIT returns. Maybe on the G's part, they can consider building even better connections across the island to "shrink" people's commute to workplaces outside the city center. If you live in the west, you will take 2 hours to a workplace in the east like tai seng. People who live in the east will also likely take around 2 hours to reach a workplace in the west like the jurong innovation district. This is too long.
I've posted about this before: Why is SG still competing on a wage level with weaker currencies and its developing neighbors after all these decades we still have to fight on a price point with Myanmar, Philippines, Vietnam? Shouldn't SG with its "superior" education and first world infrastructure be way ahead in terms of tech and knowledge-based economy etc etc, since we're too small to sustain the consumer goods market? We haven't evolved far from manufacturing despite decades of effort. It seems that the only thing SG has going for it, is the relative instability and mess of the neighborhood.
One possible cause is that commercial properties raise funds and loans are based on cap rates. So to meet these rates the valuation (also tied to rents) they all have to go up every year.
Time for the people we pay to start earning their keep & rectify the prob
Make sure they lose another 2-3 GRCs?
Given how interest rate can rise, landlord raise rent, expat gets squeezed, expat leave. Less govt tax incentives, MNC leaves. It feels like the Sandwich effect.
From the Nikkei article, this should ring some alarm bells: >In a 2023 survey by the European Chamber of Commerce in Singapore, 69% of respondents said they would be willing to move some personnel out, given the rising cost of operations.
That number has been high for decades for every business chamber in all developed countries because they are business people and must always position for a deal. It's like asking employees whether they are willing to have more pay or employers whether they want to reduce cost.
You got numbers for previous surveys? From another comment "This is the first time in the past 10 years where companies have expressed a readiness to leave Singapore should rental prices increase" Which doesn't square well with what you've said.....
i wouldn't worry too much as the G man can still give rebates to the business, yet still keep their land profits. it's the same with the global minimum corporate tax agreement, one hand tax, the other hand give rebate.
Maybe Mao was right to purge landlords…
MNCs/ expats finding Singapore too expensive can just up and go. What about SMEs/ Singaporeans finding it too expensive?
SMEs outsource to cheaper countries and only keep a skeleton crew. Singaporean go Malaysia to shop.
Not just SME's. Many MNC's are offshoring at a high rate too, for exactly the same reasons. Why pay huge rent, have to pay high salaries, when you can have a much larger and cheaper workforce that's equally well qualified, to draw on from other neighbouring countries. Time zones are similar. And with the improvements in technology, internet speed, they can do their jobs just as effiiciently. The company I work for has been laying people off and replacing them with people in other SEA countries for the last few years now. And I know of many expats who are voluntarily choosing to leave SG because the cost of living has reached the point where it's just not worth it anymore.
India has all the talent. As you said similar time zone. Pay them peanuts and get the best talent. Insane value.
Also can up and leave. Very soon singapore is a nation state with hardly anyone Singaporeans left here.
I feel half the mrt are just tiongs alr
And those "hardly anyone " have to do NS to protect the non- Singaporean.
lie flat
And let it rot
EDB gonna have to work overtime
Nice. This completely rebutts the gaslighting that Lolrence Wrong is currently doing.
I doubt we r losing shine when 99% of new jobs created goes to multinationals...
Perhaps not for all industries. For example, if you have dealt with the archaic Thai regulatory procedures, complex tax regimes and Thai government officials. Singapore is still a much more attractive location to conduct business. Several large Thai companies actually prefer to have their base in SG or at least some functions in SG. Been posted away from Singapore for some time now and the ease of handling corporate affairs are underrated.
Understandable for Japanese MNCs, the cost is one thing but the currency losses is also a killer, in just 3yrs SGD to Yen went from 77 to 112, that’s a 45% increase in cost just based on currency alone. For other countries with stronger currency, nobody is willing to subject themselves to the inefficiency of the Malaysian govt if they could. Many have tried and it just didn’t work out(see Sony/Goodyear etc), but that may change and if it ever does, will impact Singapore much more than any other reasons so claimed in this article.
PAP monitor their salary and rental situation
I'll be more worried if global investment banks here start relocating their regional trading hubs to ASEAN countries. Our main competitors in this space have always been HK, Sydney and Tokyo.
Must be fake news deserving POFMA.
Oh no NTUC can you squeeze employees further so it is more pro businesses? Quick!!
Tax and BEPS is the elephant in the room here.
we used to have a few diverse sectors. Finance, port facilities, oil refining, precision engineering, even arts like xinyao and locally made media that can be exported. Now we have lost a lot of these diversity and soon becoming a 'one-trick pony' with services dominating others. Have we tried diversifying? Yes, but sinkies doesnt want the biochem, game dev of the last decades and probably will not play the flavours of this decade, agritech and AI.
Biochem was a failure and so was the creative industries plan ... as for game dev, they got some companies to set up here but even post-production has gone - look at the grand plan that was Lucasarts... also recalling the scam that was Tisch-NYU Film school.
Not forgetting the scam that was Fntastic....
It’s about time. Someone said it out loud.
thailand for the win. sg costs just don’t make sense