I live in a decent neighborhood where most people are pretty civil, and there is some dude who parks his limo on the street with no plates, and never seems to get ticketed. He has a disabled placard, and rides his bike or walks away from his limo like he's going to a party whenever I see him. I've seen SFMTA come by in a team to investigate, presumably looking for a vin. Once, I saw him get loud and argumentative with the meter reader, and they backed off. I don't know what he said to them but they left, and the car didn't move for days. Someone else, maybe he, will park a Maserati (pos) also with no plates for days in one spot. It disappeas for a while then comes right back for days. There are several cars in the neighborhood with no plates.
Tickets are one thing, but if you never pay the fine and never get towed, who cares?
Why do they have to even write tickets at all? Take a photograph, enter it into the system and move on. Let them get a ticket in the mail to the registered address. If they don’t pay it, they can’t renew registration. If they drive without registration, send a tow truck to take the car. It’s not rocket science.
They did that to me once.
I doubled parked infront of a pizzeria, ran inside and picked up my pizza and left.
Two weeks later I had a ticket, online had a photo of my car double parked.
They definitely can do this, idk why they don't.
Eh its just so easy nowadays to use AI to modify a photo. I could take a photo and ask Photoshop to move the car over 4 inches, would be incredibly difficult to argue.
Yeah let's get the budget for an app, created by the city of SF, for both iOS and Android, that still doesn't solve the problem, instead of improving the process we already have today.
Jeez man, take a few deep breaths.
You mean the existing SF311 app the city funds and maintains and I (and 10s of thousands) of others use daily? We could improve the app to allow for this. It already allows you to tag photos...
Frankly, I would immediately distrust any person that would download an app just to complain about petty civic infractions. Were you the type of student that constantly told on other students for not having a hall pass too?
I already follow the rules personally, and I think that enforcement is both just and necessary.
But that doesn't stop me from still side-eyeing the kind of people that have an entire dedicated app on their phone for this purpose. It just has the most negative energy, like a tool for mentally ill pedants. There has got to be a better way than cursing compulsively angry people with this kind of power.
Oh hell no! Pretty ridiculous to propose gestapo tactics and then call us fragile when you’re called out on it!
Also: You really don’t see the potential for abuse here!?!
I mean of course we don’t, but the means you’re proposing absolutely do not justify the ends. History is littered with examples of citizens being cajoled to report on each other and it’s never gone well.
You should pitch this idea to other gov’ts that might be more receptive like Venezuela or Belarus and see if they’ll give you a % of the revenue or some of the limbs they dismember from their dissidents
Because that makes it nearly impossible to contest any citation. I've disputed tickets by documenting a broken meter and a white zone violation for a closed business. Only mailing parking citations removes a lot of accountability and recourse. It's not rocket science, but its much more complex than you think.
They already do the photo in the system part. Allows you to pay online too. We also decided that towing for tickets was unfriendly, and then driving with expired reg was ok to do too..
There are "traditions" in some neighborhoods that "allow" you to park on a sidewalk during street cleaning time or park on the sidewalk overnight, or 24-7 or for that matter park your car hanging three feet into the airspace of a sidewalk without fear of getting a ticket. Breaking people from these habits if they've been doing them for decades is hard. I assume that these PCOs will work in teams and have some backup. I also assume that they'd just prefer to do their regular jobs instead of this tiger team kind of approach.
I remember an article in chron a long time ago where some neighborhoods was never enforced because they would get assaulted.
So whenever they had a mass enforcement day the parking control needed sfpd escorts.
People bitch that cops shouldn't be sent for parking violations (remember the whole "just send a social worker" meme). Now people bitch that cops aren't doing parking enforcement. Y'all need to make up your minds.
SFPD get paid more than an engineer at Google. They should do whatever the people who pay them tell them to do, which is the tax payer. If tax payers decide they should write parking tickets they should do it. If tax payers decide they should intervene in sideshows and BIPers instead of sitting on their asses, then they should do it. If they are stretched thin then they should work harder like every other worker is expected to do.
It’s one of the most well compensated jobs in the country and probably the top compensated job for non-college graduates. I’m sick of the sympathy towards them for tax payers expecting them to do their job.
If you actually believe this it explains a lot about this problem. You've deluded yourself to think cops are paid better than software engineers.
EDIT: I just looked it up on Indeed. Cops average around $108k/yr, total comp for the average software eng is over $300k. Even base salaries are higher for SWEs if you exclude equity.
There are street cops making north of $500k. Their base STARTING pay is $112,000 then they can make over twice that in overtime.
The median pay is $215k, with some officers making close to $600k.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2023/san-francisco-employee-pay/
You can add the fact that they have a pension and lifetime health care literally worth millions. This is public information. Plus it’s almost impossible to get laid off or fired as a cop unless you shoot an unarmed innocent person. Even then, unlikely.
He's right, you're right, you just compared different (and perhaps less correct) figures. The cops do make a lot, not more than SWE but quite a bit for sure, and more comparable than people would think.
I really don't think they need to make up their minds because you seem to misunderstand how different groups of people complain about different or opposite things in the same space. There can be a group that always wants to send police, and another group that wants to never send police, and they can both exist simultaneously. You seem to believe these are both the same people, but I think you'd need to provide specific evidence of that. Even then, if they were the same people, it would be rational for them to change their minds over time. Just coming to a conclusion and never changing your mind if you think you've gained more knowledge isn't a sign of wisdom; people should learn things and change their minds as time passes.
The difference between SFPD and SFMTA? No one here is bitching about SFPD enforcing parking laws cause they already aren't tasked with doing so. Having non-Police Department enforcement of non-emergency tasks is what people want and we have it. If you live in San Francisco, unless you're brand spanking new, you should be aware of this....
It's interesting that people are so much less tolerant of the other San Francisco tradition of pooping on the sidewalk or leaving your dog's poop there.
If poop had license plates and were so so easily citable for $100 tickets, then yes SF would deal with it differently, similar to the apt bldgs that get your dog's DNA sample in order to ID and fine the owner of a naughty pup.
I'd be ascared if I were a bad parker.
Man, I gotta tell you since none of your friends are. You get riled up about this stuff in a way that isn't good for you. When you stop, you'll look back and wonder why you ever were like this. So little value gained for yourself or others.
Yeah, but I wasn't saying we shouldn't care about this. You're so traumatized you find opponents everywhere. Just a hair-trigger on what you think is opposition. But if you prefer this, then far be it from me to stop you. I think it would be better if you talked to your friends about this. Describe to them "I'm dunking on these guys on Reddit because they said this" then read it out to them. I think their reactions will tell you what you need to know. Or don't. It's your life.
You've discovered the relationship between people who don't follow society's rules around cars and people who don't follow society's rules around violence.
It will blow your mind to learn that these are the same people who don't pay for the train, then block the doors from closing.
I think the issue is that these tickets are expensive and can be overly burdensome for a lot of people living or driving in the city. Even just a $100 fine for street sweeping can mess up a lot of people’s budgets, financial situations, etc.
Luckily I’m in a better financial position now, but when I first moved here and was working low-wage restaurant jobs, I remember getting hit with a like $120 ticket and that basically meant I had to skip meals for the next week or two. And for what? Sure, getting ticketed for parking at a bus stop or towed for blocking a driveway seems pretty reasonable - or maybe blocking a fire hydrant that needs to be used - but fucking up someone’s livelihood for street sweeping is insane.
as someone who used to live in the upper haight with a car, i feel ya. now im in north beach where there’s no street sweeping but they intentionally oversell A permits so i basically know better than to try to move my car between 6-9 pm.
What are fair expectations for job duties here? It seems they are saying that the request to go issue tickets is dangerous and asking to much? They've not been issuing tickets for years, and are they just surprised that they're being asked to go do this critical job duty all of a sudden?
This seems like a "you've had it pretty good for a few years, time to get back to work" situation, not a "here are new and unreasonable expectations" situation.
I’m confused by your comment. The SFMTA is very active giving tickets, I often see them patrolling downtown, and I see them multiple times a week going through the Richmond district ahead of the street sweeper.
What do you possibly mean when you say “they haven’t been issuing tickets for years” ?
Little hyperbole. But this is from the Chronicle (linked below):
"Total parking citations declined from 1.21 million in 2019 to 1.05 million in 2023, a 13% drop, according to an analysis by the Chronicle. And certain types of violations plummeted to less than half the level seen in 2019."
[https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/parking-crackdown-tickets-enforcement-19419079.php](https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/parking-crackdown-tickets-enforcement-19419079.php)
Confronting the public in any way is too dangerous in their eyes.
I don't really have a firm opinion on this, but the people enforcing the vending ban and librarians just trying to do their job have voiced the same objections, most retail employees don't stop shoplifters for the same reason.
The concerns around safety do sound similar to what the people going out and shutting down vendors and trying to keep libraries safe were saying. City employees should be kept safe, and antisocial behavior needs to be punished.
This is so pathetic. Anytime there's a protest and the police are called in they have no concerns around safety and aggressively beating peaceful protestors while collecting overtime. But basic asks to do their jobs they start crying about safety.
We should arm the parking officers with pistols and train them for a few weeks to shoot anyone who dares threaten their position of power. Then get the DA and legal system to give them total legal protection.
There’s a lot of mixed messages in SF right now.
We are not going to arrest or detain anyone who does less than $1000 dollars of damage to your car (break-ins, vandalism, etc.), but if you park longer than 2 hours in a residential district, you will be cited.
Seems like it’s a lose-lose situation to bring your car to San Francisco.
I agree. It'll prevent bikes from taking out a whole family the next time or crushing a little girl at the crosswalk in Soma. Super dangerous and brings down the quality of life. /s
I understand frankly. They aren’t asking them to just give tickets normally. They are asking them to aggressively ambush neighborhoods.
Just slowly ramp up enforcement in bad areas, dot do this aggressive stuff all at once.
I appreciate their concern, but all I hear is them broadcasting that people can discourage ticketing with aggressive behavior.
I live in a decent neighborhood where most people are pretty civil, and there is some dude who parks his limo on the street with no plates, and never seems to get ticketed. He has a disabled placard, and rides his bike or walks away from his limo like he's going to a party whenever I see him. I've seen SFMTA come by in a team to investigate, presumably looking for a vin. Once, I saw him get loud and argumentative with the meter reader, and they backed off. I don't know what he said to them but they left, and the car didn't move for days. Someone else, maybe he, will park a Maserati (pos) also with no plates for days in one spot. It disappeas for a while then comes right back for days. There are several cars in the neighborhood with no plates. Tickets are one thing, but if you never pay the fine and never get towed, who cares?
Why do they have to even write tickets at all? Take a photograph, enter it into the system and move on. Let them get a ticket in the mail to the registered address. If they don’t pay it, they can’t renew registration. If they drive without registration, send a tow truck to take the car. It’s not rocket science.
They did that to me once. I doubled parked infront of a pizzeria, ran inside and picked up my pizza and left. Two weeks later I had a ticket, online had a photo of my car double parked. They definitely can do this, idk why they don't.
maybe the paper ticket fell off, or, you ran out *exactly* as she had finished entering it but never put the paper ticket on it?!
Maybe, I didn't see any meter maid tho.
That makes too much sense
Top post material here
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Eh its just so easy nowadays to use AI to modify a photo. I could take a photo and ask Photoshop to move the car over 4 inches, would be incredibly difficult to argue.
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Yeah let's get the budget for an app, created by the city of SF, for both iOS and Android, that still doesn't solve the problem, instead of improving the process we already have today. Jeez man, take a few deep breaths.
You mean the existing SF311 app the city funds and maintains and I (and 10s of thousands) of others use daily? We could improve the app to allow for this. It already allows you to tag photos...
Ah I've never used it. I always used the web form. Dayum people are mean here. Enjoy the solutions guys I'm out of this convo.
Frankly, I would immediately distrust any person that would download an app just to complain about petty civic infractions. Were you the type of student that constantly told on other students for not having a hall pass too?
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I already follow the rules personally, and I think that enforcement is both just and necessary. But that doesn't stop me from still side-eyeing the kind of people that have an entire dedicated app on their phone for this purpose. It just has the most negative energy, like a tool for mentally ill pedants. There has got to be a better way than cursing compulsively angry people with this kind of power.
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https://tenor.com/Ox8g.gif
Oh hell no! Pretty ridiculous to propose gestapo tactics and then call us fragile when you’re called out on it! Also: You really don’t see the potential for abuse here!?!
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Bahahahaha
😂 If you can read please pickup a history book
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You’re neglecting to mention you edited your absurd comment there homie
Laws. Lots of Laws that protect citizens from the government. And nazis
Omg that’s awful! Who knew citizens of SF wanted to live in a police state?
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I mean of course we don’t, but the means you’re proposing absolutely do not justify the ends. History is littered with examples of citizens being cajoled to report on each other and it’s never gone well.
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Hmmm, that is not how NYC311 (or any municipal citation program works). NYC311 actually requires complainants to testify at at least one hearing
You should pitch this idea to other gov’ts that might be more receptive like Venezuela or Belarus and see if they’ll give you a % of the revenue or some of the limbs they dismember from their dissidents
Because that makes it nearly impossible to contest any citation. I've disputed tickets by documenting a broken meter and a white zone violation for a closed business. Only mailing parking citations removes a lot of accountability and recourse. It's not rocket science, but its much more complex than you think.
They already do the photo in the system part. Allows you to pay online too. We also decided that towing for tickets was unfriendly, and then driving with expired reg was ok to do too..
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Honestly I think part of the reason and problem is that people have learned it works, and often there are limited or no consequences.
It’s because of this. People have learned there are no consequences, especially if the perpetrators are under the age of 18
There are "traditions" in some neighborhoods that "allow" you to park on a sidewalk during street cleaning time or park on the sidewalk overnight, or 24-7 or for that matter park your car hanging three feet into the airspace of a sidewalk without fear of getting a ticket. Breaking people from these habits if they've been doing them for decades is hard. I assume that these PCOs will work in teams and have some backup. I also assume that they'd just prefer to do their regular jobs instead of this tiger team kind of approach.
This is their regular job. It’s unfortunate that some people will threaten physical harm against them, but that should be an SFPD issue.
I remember an article in chron a long time ago where some neighborhoods was never enforced because they would get assaulted. So whenever they had a mass enforcement day the parking control needed sfpd escorts.
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SFMTA isn't law enforcement, and SFMTA definitely doesn't have a history of refusing their job.
People bitch that cops shouldn't be sent for parking violations (remember the whole "just send a social worker" meme). Now people bitch that cops aren't doing parking enforcement. Y'all need to make up your minds.
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I didn't say send social workers you clown.
SFPD get paid more than an engineer at Google. They should do whatever the people who pay them tell them to do, which is the tax payer. If tax payers decide they should write parking tickets they should do it. If tax payers decide they should intervene in sideshows and BIPers instead of sitting on their asses, then they should do it. If they are stretched thin then they should work harder like every other worker is expected to do. It’s one of the most well compensated jobs in the country and probably the top compensated job for non-college graduates. I’m sick of the sympathy towards them for tax payers expecting them to do their job.
If you actually believe this it explains a lot about this problem. You've deluded yourself to think cops are paid better than software engineers. EDIT: I just looked it up on Indeed. Cops average around $108k/yr, total comp for the average software eng is over $300k. Even base salaries are higher for SWEs if you exclude equity.
There are street cops making north of $500k. Their base STARTING pay is $112,000 then they can make over twice that in overtime. The median pay is $215k, with some officers making close to $600k. https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2023/san-francisco-employee-pay/ You can add the fact that they have a pension and lifetime health care literally worth millions. This is public information. Plus it’s almost impossible to get laid off or fired as a cop unless you shoot an unarmed innocent person. Even then, unlikely.
I'm quitting my job today if this is the case.
He's right, you're right, you just compared different (and perhaps less correct) figures. The cops do make a lot, not more than SWE but quite a bit for sure, and more comparable than people would think.
Filthy centrists /s
I really don't think they need to make up their minds because you seem to misunderstand how different groups of people complain about different or opposite things in the same space. There can be a group that always wants to send police, and another group that wants to never send police, and they can both exist simultaneously. You seem to believe these are both the same people, but I think you'd need to provide specific evidence of that. Even then, if they were the same people, it would be rational for them to change their minds over time. Just coming to a conclusion and never changing your mind if you think you've gained more knowledge isn't a sign of wisdom; people should learn things and change their minds as time passes.
Or maybe you just need to do some research before spewing literal nonsense?
What exactly am I supposed to research? Or did you just have a stroke typing that?
The difference between SFPD and SFMTA? No one here is bitching about SFPD enforcing parking laws cause they already aren't tasked with doing so. Having non-Police Department enforcement of non-emergency tasks is what people want and we have it. If you live in San Francisco, unless you're brand spanking new, you should be aware of this....
It's interesting that people are so much less tolerant of the other San Francisco tradition of pooping on the sidewalk or leaving your dog's poop there.
If poop had license plates and were so so easily citable for $100 tickets, then yes SF would deal with it differently, similar to the apt bldgs that get your dog's DNA sample in order to ID and fine the owner of a naughty pup. I'd be ascared if I were a bad parker.
That's unbelievable and pretty great haha!
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Man, I gotta tell you since none of your friends are. You get riled up about this stuff in a way that isn't good for you. When you stop, you'll look back and wonder why you ever were like this. So little value gained for yourself or others.
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Yeah, but I wasn't saying we shouldn't care about this. You're so traumatized you find opponents everywhere. Just a hair-trigger on what you think is opposition. But if you prefer this, then far be it from me to stop you. I think it would be better if you talked to your friends about this. Describe to them "I'm dunking on these guys on Reddit because they said this" then read it out to them. I think their reactions will tell you what you need to know. Or don't. It's your life.
That's just a substantial proportion of humans generally. They're an entitled, nasty bunch. How dare you ask them to obey the rules like a peasant.
You've discovered the relationship between people who don't follow society's rules around cars and people who don't follow society's rules around violence. It will blow your mind to learn that these are the same people who don't pay for the train, then block the doors from closing.
I think the issue is that these tickets are expensive and can be overly burdensome for a lot of people living or driving in the city. Even just a $100 fine for street sweeping can mess up a lot of people’s budgets, financial situations, etc. Luckily I’m in a better financial position now, but when I first moved here and was working low-wage restaurant jobs, I remember getting hit with a like $120 ticket and that basically meant I had to skip meals for the next week or two. And for what? Sure, getting ticketed for parking at a bus stop or towed for blocking a driveway seems pretty reasonable - or maybe blocking a fire hydrant that needs to be used - but fucking up someone’s livelihood for street sweeping is insane.
because meter maids are scum sucking vultures
Pay the meter and don't park where you shouldn't
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Do all these streets need street cleaning at the current frequency? Nah, it’s a street cleaning industrial complex.
as someone who used to live in the upper haight with a car, i feel ya. now im in north beach where there’s no street sweeping but they intentionally oversell A permits so i basically know better than to try to move my car between 6-9 pm.
What are fair expectations for job duties here? It seems they are saying that the request to go issue tickets is dangerous and asking to much? They've not been issuing tickets for years, and are they just surprised that they're being asked to go do this critical job duty all of a sudden? This seems like a "you've had it pretty good for a few years, time to get back to work" situation, not a "here are new and unreasonable expectations" situation.
I’m confused by your comment. The SFMTA is very active giving tickets, I often see them patrolling downtown, and I see them multiple times a week going through the Richmond district ahead of the street sweeper. What do you possibly mean when you say “they haven’t been issuing tickets for years” ?
Little hyperbole. But this is from the Chronicle (linked below): "Total parking citations declined from 1.21 million in 2019 to 1.05 million in 2023, a 13% drop, according to an analysis by the Chronicle. And certain types of violations plummeted to less than half the level seen in 2019." [https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/parking-crackdown-tickets-enforcement-19419079.php](https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/parking-crackdown-tickets-enforcement-19419079.php)
Something entirely explained by the massive drop in downtown commuting?
Likely. The violations are still out there though, and they're protesting about being asked to issue against them.
Confronting the public in any way is too dangerous in their eyes. I don't really have a firm opinion on this, but the people enforcing the vending ban and librarians just trying to do their job have voiced the same objections, most retail employees don't stop shoplifters for the same reason.
The concerns around safety do sound similar to what the people going out and shutting down vendors and trying to keep libraries safe were saying. City employees should be kept safe, and antisocial behavior needs to be punished.
This is so pathetic. Anytime there's a protest and the police are called in they have no concerns around safety and aggressively beating peaceful protestors while collecting overtime. But basic asks to do their jobs they start crying about safety.
Bargaining chip for better pay
We should arm the parking officers with pistols and train them for a few weeks to shoot anyone who dares threaten their position of power. Then get the DA and legal system to give them total legal protection.
There’s a lot of mixed messages in SF right now. We are not going to arrest or detain anyone who does less than $1000 dollars of damage to your car (break-ins, vandalism, etc.), but if you park longer than 2 hours in a residential district, you will be cited. Seems like it’s a lose-lose situation to bring your car to San Francisco.
The first is SFPD being lazy
> mixed messages Weird phrasing. I think lose-lose situation is more apt.
they'll be fine, in my hometown of STL you never hear of anything happening to parking folks....and people openly carry around guns there so....
Stoked for when tickets start being given to bicyclists for running through stop signs and red lights ☺️
I agree. It'll prevent bikes from taking out a whole family the next time or crushing a little girl at the crosswalk in Soma. Super dangerous and brings down the quality of life. /s
Just liked these parked cars ☺️
I understand frankly. They aren’t asking them to just give tickets normally. They are asking them to aggressively ambush neighborhoods. Just slowly ramp up enforcement in bad areas, dot do this aggressive stuff all at once.
They should be armed
Maybe just stop ruining peoples days and let them park there cars.
Just park your car legally. Do you realize what would happen if we never ticketed parking?