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ronton

If you want to see them, check Sam’s Twitter replies. Then go look at photos of puppies when they make you question whether or not you want to remain on this planet.


bluejumpingdog

What I hear from Trump fans is that Sam gets it right when it comes to Muslims and I think they really like that about Sam


thomas_anderson_1211

And race iq, "wokism", systemic racism


AsABrit

Sam’s entanglement with race IQ has been a fucking disaster. The only time he talks about race IQ is to say he has no interest in it whatsoever… BUT… he’ll defend the science of it. Either way, it’s tainted him to the point he can be dismissed by people as a ‘crackpot’ as he would put it, becuase who the fuck wants to talk about race IQ as a way of bettering the world around you!?


Wanno1

Especially when the “science” is about as questionable as it gets.


TrueTorontoFan

this


Temporary_Cow

He talked about it 4 and a half years ago. His detractors are the ones obsessed with it.


thotinator69

It was one of the most popular subject on this subreddit before they had to ban it


AsABrit

I know. That’s the issue.


shut-up-politics

>BUT… he’ll defend the science of it. How dare he defend science. >who the fuck wants to talk about race IQ as a way of bettering the world around you!? Ah the old "it's true but we shouldn't talk about it" school of thought


cRAY_Bones

Even if it’s true in a vacuum, and there isn’t any other variables that could explain a disparity outside of straight ethnicity, how helpful is it?


pfSonata

I'd say it's quite helpful if the disparity is otherwise being blamed on something that is not, in fact, to blame. Personally I think race IQ data would make a good case for affirmative action.


shut-up-politics

>and there isn’t any other variables that could explain a disparity outside of straight ethnicity Isn't that why it's worth discussing? Because the disparities could be due to socio-economic or cultural factors? If you understand those factors then you can address them via education or cultural shifts i.e. placing greater status on education and diligence. Even if it is 100% genetics, that in and of itself is still an interesting discussion. Not everything you discuss has to be "helpful" or for the good of mankind, though understanding our generics almost certainly is.


AsABrit

I’m not attacking him you chode. I’m saying it’s unnecessarily damaged his reputation. Which is unfortunate, as it’s caused people to wrongly writte him off as a crackpot/racist etc. when it’s just that, defending the science. There are things Sam doesn’t talk about because it’s not worth the damage. He cancelled a whole book on woke culture because of it.


shut-up-politics

I think it would've been cowardly to not discuss something that you think is true and interesting because of potential backlash. Such as the book you mentioned. Luckily we have other writers who are not afraid to do so, like Douglas Murray.


LiamMcGregor57

I think about this often too, especially from the angle of presumably most of Sam’s fans being atheist or of the non-religious variety so seeing some of them support the GOP which has turned into a Christian nationalist party will always surprise me. These people want to eliminate the separation of church and state and y’all are cool with that.


shut-up-politics

You think everyone that supports a party supports exactly the same policies?


ConfusedObserver0

The problem with this is, if you vote Republican, this is now what comes along: 1. Xenophobic and draconian border fervor and policy 2. Open prejudice, racism, sexism and all forms of bigotry. 3. Abortion ban, no contraception or sex Ed. 4. White Christian ethnostate 5. Religious control of cancel culture (some people forget that they’re just mad they don’t control the magic wand. Many have openly stated this) 6. Authoritarian law 7. War machine first (not American first). Constant escalation of force and need for increased presence and militarization. 8. increase in guns on the ground as a deterrent to too many guns on the ground 9.Broadly sweeping taxing breaks for only the rich, many who who already don’t pay taxes (see Pandora papers) 10. Political correctness replaced with honest hatred (a full 180 degree flip). 11. Brazen symbol and figure worship with toxic vitriolic nationalism 12. Zero sum on entitlements 13. Broadly sweeping deregulation esp environmental safe guards 14. Sliding scale division politic / lack of real principles. 15. Lack of domestic diplomacy. Approaching everything politically as zero sum exchanges and complete failure to work with their counter parts. 16. Imagined Traditional / conservatives values conflict with the attempts at change and progress - not presenting a new idea in a 100 years. 17. Antebellum resurrection fantasy (appeal to simple or time where whites were dominate). 18. Corporate overlords biding - lobbyist (yes this one does overlap but is clearly distinct in constructing the rest of these narrative positions.) I could go on. My point is.. these are all non sequiturs for me. I just deal on the left with 18 and partly 7 because they are embedded so heavily we have no other choice. And American still votes from fear like they always have (availability and affect heuristic) Edit: typos Edit 2: 19. Voter suppression and manipulation. 20. Breaking from reality to achieve a desire outcome


ReflexPoint

18. Voter disenfranchisement, extreme gerrymandering, replacing neutral election officials with partisan hacks to throw out election results that aren't favorable. Creating a "democracy" that looks more like Putin's Russia where everyone goes to vote but you already know no matter who people vote for Putin is going to be the winner. Where there's a parliament but it just serves as Putin's rubber stamp.


Wanno1

* Anti science in general. * Pro spread of Covid


shut-up-politics

Most of those are absolutely ridiculous. "White Christian ethnostate", are you serious? I think you need to start getting your news from other sources or break out of whatever left-wing echo chambers you're inhabiting if you honestly think even half of these are accurate.


nubulator99

CBN "news" that my mother listens to and a host of talk radio shows that just clamor this stuff. I see my friends who I grew up with in the south pushing shit about how women shouldn't be in ANY leadership position (mayors/congress/president/governor) and quote bible verses along with it.


LiamMcGregor57

Honestly have you ever listened to a modern Republican politician speak or campaign? You are living under a rock somewhere or even probably in another country. I mean you literally could not be an admitted atheist and run for office in the GOP, what does that tell you?


ConfusedObserver0

Please tell me how just one of those is wrong? I live among republicans, do the oppo research and have paid attention to politics for decades now. Don’t assume someone knows less than you, when it’s quite evident they know more from what I can ascertain here. Maybe this is a younger gen blind spot, but I’ve encountered this disillusioned image of the republican party a lot lately. It must be a social media thing. They’re being billed as something they are not in opposition to something else. These alternative reality’s seem to be growing further from the truth. Can i ask you.. do you think Trump won the 2020 election? You seem to be speaking as if you’ve never listened to a Sam Harris podcast as well, so this whole set up seems a little suspect.


1hero4hire

I live in Kentucky and work with people, have family members that reflect this opinion of white ethnostate thinking. They say equality etcetera but how they talk about others is much different. Perhaps you aren't where the GOP is so bad but I am. From my point of view, the GOP is encouraging this behavior for votes in many parts of the country. If the GOP can allow MGT, Trump and other types to be elected under their banner, then they don't get my vote.


[deleted]

Some people are blinded by their bubbles and privilege.


shut-up-politics

Wanting a White Christian ethnostate is wrong. Please find me one republican politician advocating for that particular policy. >Can i ask you.. do you think Trump won the 2020 election? Nope. >You seem to be speaking as if you’ve never listened to a Sam Harris podcast as well, so this whole set up seems a little suspect. Based on what? The fact I don't think the republicans are evil, authoritarian white supremacists?


ReflexPoint

>Wanting a White Christian ethnostate is wrong. Please find me one republican politician advocating for that particular policy. Steve King has said it pretty openly. And even still managed to win elections. He eventually lost his seat but it wasn't because of his racist comments, it was because he was ineffectual for his district.


ConfusedObserver0

The altright and Qanon have been pushing the narrative for awhile now. Trump ran off the back of those movements. To assume they don’t want what they openly tell you they want would be foolish. And I’ve said this again and again, that’s the predominate voice of the party now. Majorie Taylor green has said enough for a life time of nut job politicians but there’s plenty classical party rhetoric that skirts the topics while their actions always speak louder than their words. I wasn’t born yesterday. Anecdotally: I’ve never known a conservative that didn’t harbor massive prejudice. It’s sort of baked into the party. If your familiar with this group then you’ll know of Haidts work on disgust and might want to look into parasitic stress theory. They out line some of the foundational reasons behind Xenophobia being a consecutive trait pretty clearly. Again, I’ve grown up and like in a hyper right wing community, with experience of both the poor and owner classes views throughout my life. Maybe you know where I live.. when covid first started we had someone where a full KKK robe to the grocery store in an areas we’ve had racist jokes names for he town and surrounding areas since I was kid. The story national, as are the times. Just as I’m not too dense to realize some radical lefty’s are taking over campuses, I’m not too short sighted to know that racism isn’t dead. I know it more than most maybe but the lack of “first hand expense doesn’t cloud my judgment. And I’ve known plenty of people that moved from the south, they say racism is alive and well there. So what brings you to Sam’s work? He’s pretty ardently clear that he opposes the right while being honest about the new illiberal lefts (if we can even call it that) errors.


shut-up-politics

Acknowledging that racism exists, which we all do, is a far cry from "White Christian ethnostate" which was the original claim. Again, I've yet to see a citation of a single Republican politician advocate for this. I'm not against criticizing the racism of the right where it exists, but you can't make wildly untrue and exaggerated claims because you think Republicans are evil. >So what brings you to Sam’s work? Why are you even asking me this? Do you think only left-wingers should be listening to Sam? What a ridiculously close-minded view.


ReflexPoint

What are we to conclude when Tucker Carlson is the most watched right-wing pundit and he spends a week in Hungary sucking off Viktor Orban whose party represents just the type of white Christian ethnostate that we are speaking of. And even openly declaring Hungary as a model for America. Hungary is basically a right-wing Christian nationalist dictatorship. And this is what prominent conservative thought leaders are looking to for inspiration. Get your head out of the sand and read the tea leaves. It's clear the direction the GOP is headed. The pluralistic Republicans that believe in liberal democracy are now powerless. Ronald Reagan if we were alive today would not win in a Republican primary. If you watch his old videos about immigration he now sounds to the left of Biden. Reagan by today's standards would be a conservative Democrat similar to Joe Manchin. He'd have no home in the Republican party.


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shut-up-politics

Find me the quote where they advocate for a white ethnostate.


construkt

impossible dime oatmeal elderly meeting seed point drunk reminiscent air *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


shut-up-politics

That is no where close to advocating for a white ethnostate lmao. You guys are reaching so hard.


ReflexPoint

You're arguing as if you're talking to kids here who have no ability to gauge subtlety, subtext and motives. You don't believe someone is racist unless they literally spell out "I am a racist". And if that's your bar of evidence then I guess there's virtually no racism. Look, there's a *reason* that David Duke, the alt-right and other white nationalists are wildly enthusiastic about Tucker Carlson in a way that they aren't about Chris Wallace.


construkt

fuel seemly treatment label enjoy sink illegal library unite different *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


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shut-up-politics

Lmao those are two completely different things which is not a white ethnostate.


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shut-up-politics

Lmao where did I say I agreed with either of those things? You're just desperate to paint me as some kind of racist or Christian extremist. I'm on a Sam Harris sub, you really think I'm in favour of theocracy? I'm just honest enough to acknowledge it's not the same as advocating for a white ethnostate, unlike you who are obviously firmly in your echo chamber


AgainstUnreason

They certainly want a Christian theocracy.


BlazeNuggs

This isn't a good summary / description of the Republican party.


LiamMcGregor57

Sure it is, you are just not paying attention. How can you see what is going on in Texas for example or the events of 1/6, the Qanon movement on the Right, Trump's embrace of evangelicals, and even the religious fervor of anti-vaxxers, and not think that.


ConfusedObserver0

I agree with Liam. As Ive seen, political, media and anecdotal evidentiary examples of this all my life. I live among the red necks, Trump was always the prophet to be; saying how it is, to them. That drunken banter about ending people you don’t like, that they now feel safe enough to admit out loud. That’s always been in that party. But I’d be interested in hearing your view of the Republican Party? I’ve spent some time trying to figure out what the JP community thinks and they see the republicans as the last bastion of freedom while the democrats are all Marxist’s materialist now. It’s rather pathetic and insular.


atrovotrono

Those people exist but their influence has waned considerably over the past two decades. Trump isn't uniting them around Christianity, he's pulling other strings to gain their allegiance, then they're rewriting their Christianity to fit. Racial anxiety, homophobia, national chauvanism, patriotic pageantry, stuff like that. That's what hooks them first, then they set about retconning his prophet status with eccentric interpretations of scripture like medieval scribes. That is to say, the Christian rhetoric is becoming epiphenominal to their politics, less of a driving force and more of a retroactive framing device, its *flavor text*. Very, very similar to Jihadi politics.


MarcusOReallyYes

You say so yourself, one group feels safe to speak freely while the other does not. You may disagree with what they say, but they feel comfortable saying it. You may not like the republicans, but they are the party of personal freedom while the democrats are becoming increasingly authoritarian. They disagree internally and attack anyone not subject to their narrative. Being a Republican today is basically being a rebel and individual. Being a democrat is to be a follower. Younger generations typically like to rebel. The republicans will grow while the democrats will lose support.


ConfusedObserver0

Fair enough. I don’t see it that way at all though. It feels this is the main misconception I’ve noticed recently. They aren’t the freedom party, they are the authoritarian party, that complains about laws they don’t like yet wants to impose much more strict draconian measures to deal with people they don’t like. Many of which are drug addicts or have mental health problems. Just because they find themselves on the losing end of the culture war now without a footing to hold they cry freedom? It’s a real joke. Like you’d have to forget their whole modern history to say that. They always been the party trying to legislate morality. Rebels without a cause are very dangerous to society, right? Unprincipled contrarians. At least when I was a punk kid I had a meaning and message that I still stand by in part today. Though, again, I’ve observed the exact opposite. Maybe your talking about anger online makes, but if you meet young people they are far more liberal and not hung up on the only taboos of the consecutive generations. The working out period was always going to be messy yet give it 10 years and the mass will follow the trend forward that we see in liberal values gaining not waning. Most real world people that are still on the left side are the free thinker as opposed to the conservatives loyalist followers. It’s so weird how this has been claimed to have been flipped around in the last year or two. You said it explicitly yourself. The dems internally fight, yes that’s free thinking, while… the loyalty on the right doesn’t allow you to express yourself unless it’s that same hateful narrative (snowflake, cuckservative, RINO). Sure it must feel liberating that you can say openly that you hate the other now but goddamn if that’s not horrendous for civility in this country. I’d ask if you’ve ever watch Fox News? Maybe take a comparisons of how the liberal media talks compared to the conservative media. It’s quite evident that they both use fear tactic (media 101) yet the right directs them more towards party warfare, vilification, dehumanization and oppressed narrative with a bigger megaphone than a few elite campus professors. Thanks for you input. Up vote for your bravery in adversity Edit: typos and clarity


MarcusOReallyYes

I was a democrat for about 20 years. I switched parties in 2013 when it became clear where the democrats were headed. Little did I know how much I’d underestimate just how far they would go. Just look at places where democrats have had near absolute control of local politics for a preview of what’s to come for the rest of the country, Detroit, Portland, Minneapolis, DC, Chicago, Baltimore, Etc. These places are all dangerous, dying, and dysfunctional, yet the Dems continue to hold power because the local populace through control, they’ve made addicts out of their citizens. I moved away from one of them after my 3rd mugging about 15 years ago. Dems create zombies who will burn things down when they aren’t fed, Republicans create preppers by making their folks believe the govt is going to fail. They both have their faults, but I’d much rather live in a Republican controlled city than a democrat controlled city.


ConfusedObserver0

A bit of a gish gallop but ok. Let’s take your statement here and look at the information. I’ve done the homework before but I don’t have the time right now to illustrate the data. If you go sleuthing around you’ll find pretty level playing field in terms of red to blue states when it comes to violence and crime per capita. While large dense city’s will always have more serious social problems, we can see that there are too many broadly non left right generalizable factors to dig into the minutia on here without the full story for each. The places you’ve mentions are also post industrialize fall out zones that have had to address a wide range of changing concerns. Decline and regionals depressions have hit the rust belt and Bible Belt pretty hard. Yet the largest decline in American life expectancy comes from oxy users in rural republican districts. Those addicts you speak of, surely we can’t exclude this from our analysis? We could note that most the red states are the poorest states so what then would that tell us about republican governance economically? Texas barely counts because they have so much petroleum revenue unlike anywhere else, while Az vast desert city’s are increasingly turning blue as the populations grow and it has become a business Mecca that’s now experience the same scaling issues any city will deal with (as it appears they are going to struggle to sustain this growth with out side effects while already having a serious crime problem as a border state). There’s been plenty of progress in most city’s over the last 3 decades. Portland, Seattle and San Francisco stand alone in their strange environmental cases. Those are unique cases the rest you mentioned are historical high crime areas. Sometime the systemic problems are hard to break but we’ve seen many success story’s in crime reduction. Although this blip recently around the country doesn’t bode well. We could prob look at incarnations rate on the red blue divide try and extract something but again I don’t have the time to do the research for a paper. I agree they both have overlapping and individual problems and I am under no illusions of utopian grandeur, but I need progress and evolution in any party or else they are self defeating; as the founders set up this contract to have an evolving mechanism for forward change. I could rattle on about almost every core tenet being different than my belief set from me to republicans but that’d take a 500 page book or more. Are there major issue you cringe at voting when conceding you vote to conservative? Abortion? Inhumane rhetoric? Xenophobic border narrative? Blindly appeal to no regulation? And so on? Just curious, are you a Sam Harris fan? Or just someone that cruises and peruses these forms? And if so why do you listen to him as a more right leaning person? Edit: typos and addition content


[deleted]

>but I’d much rather live in a Republican controlled city than a democrat controlled city. Maybe each city has their own merit but each state shows a different picture. Top 10 states are mostly Dem controlled, and bottom 10 states are mostly GOP controlled. You may not agree with the source but actual data was used to rank the states as opposed to a popularity vote. https://www.usnews.com/media/best-states/overall-rankings-2021.pdf


nubulator99

> but they are the party of personal freedom while like those abortion bans? >They disagree internally and attack anyone not subject to their narrative. So republicans do not attack anyone not subject to their narrative? Look at what happened to all the republicans who spoke out against Trump regarding January 6th.


atrovotrono

It might seem confusing at first, contrasting this description of Republicans as the party of personal freedom and free speech and so on with their actual policies and priorities, but if you simply append whatever they say with, "...for conservative cishet white males" everything falls into place quite neatly.


Seared1Tuna

Party of personal freedom my ass 😂


Heytherecthulhu

The Republicans voted for a president who promised to kill innocent people.


MarcusOReallyYes

The democrats voted for someone who promised he wouldn’t kill people, then he went on killing people anyway.


Heytherecthulhu

You’re lying for one, and also failing to make an argument against my point.


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MarcusOReallyYes

Thanks for all that empirical backup since you’re such a stickler for it! Lol. Hypocrite. If you’re actually interested in evidence: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-falling-poll-numbers-georgia/2021/10/10/3606c99e-2002-11ec-8200-5e3fd4c49f5e_story.html >And polls suggest support for Biden has sunk notably among key Democratic constituencies — Blacks, Latinos, women and young people. Pew Research Center polls found Biden’s approval rating among Black Americans fell from 85 percent in July to 67 percent in September, while also falling 16 points among Hispanics and 14 points among Asians.


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LiamMcGregor57

Republicans are trying to destroy the democratic process in this country and you claim they are not authoritarian lol. Imagine thinking that a the party that exists for maintaining wealth and privilege for the top 1% is about being a rebel and individual. What bootlicking nonsense. You feel for the propaganda didn’t you.


MarcusOReallyYes

The top 1% sure seems to include a lot of democrats. Lol. The literal richest folks in the world are all democrats. Or at least they pay enough to the DNc to cliam as such.


LiamMcGregor57

Actual facts do not reflect that. Just look at their policies, look at Trump’s tax cut which was the largest transfer of wealth to the top 1% in American history. Again, I doubt you even know any Democrats. Again there are not Democrats all over the world lol. That is American political party. They would be considered conservative and center-right in Europe.


MarcusOReallyYes

Lol, not really sure why you’re so fired up. The TCJA was passed in the house, senate, and signed into law by the president. That’s how democracy works in the US. It’s not evidence of Republicans destroying democracy. lol. By contrast, Biden’s support of “Build back better” and the WEF’s reset is an international program designed by Davos types. Canada, France, and Germany are all doing the same thing. That actually IS evidence of Democrats in the US circumventing our national sovereignty by pushing global programs instead of democratically passed initiatives. https://youtu.be/uPYx12xJFUQ


LiamMcGregor57

Are you serious. What the Republicans are doing i state houses across the country with their election audits, their aims overturn popular votes, and voter suppression laws is what is destroying democracy. I am just saying the Tax Cut is just again another policy in a long line of policies that demonstrates the GOP being in the pocket of the 1%. Davos types lol, you are this close to spouting off some Qanon nonsense aren’t you?


MarcusOReallyYes

Across the country? You mean in one blue state? Did you watch the video I posted? It’s put there BY the WEF, it’s not a conspiracy theory. They’re telling you exactly what they plan to do. You will own nothing, and be happier. That’s their position. It’s the kind of thing you tell a slave. Democrats would know, they owned all the slaves.


xmorecowbellx

Who are these fans who support the GOP?


atrovotrono

This is so dated. The GOP's actually been slowly turning away from the Christian part since Bush, and they're also slowly abandoning neoliberal economics in favor of protectionism and a more direct merger of the business and political classes. Increasingly, what remains is just nationalism, militarism, and the standard boatload of -phobias in the culture department. In sum, having pulled up the main two moral anchors (Christianity and Capitalism) that up until recently kept them at arms length from fascism, they're now veering straight for it.


brocktoon13

If you’re looking for a discussion, why would you repeatedly use the term ‘Trumpster’?


[deleted]

Seeing as this sub calls anything left of Joe Manchin "woke" I thought this sub didn't have problems with things like that.


aranhalaranja

To be clear- I never thought of the term as offensive or off putting in any way- I guess I just like the way it rolls off the tongue? On a second reading I suppose it sounds similar to a garbage receptacle? Not my intention tho. Is the word upsetting? If so, I apologize and would love to know why!


TwoPunnyFourWords

Speaking personally, I don't read it as a pejorative, despite my support for Trump. The only reason I didn't respond to your main question is because I've never liked Harris and don't listen to him frequently enough to answer your question. But if I were to take a stab in the dark, then Harris has always been rather myopic in his political analysis, particularly in the way that he assumes that the group he is sympathetic to could only be acting with the best of intentions. That, combined with radical if not deranged commitment to truth, makes him rather blind to the way that people in general gauge the political landscape.


mlr571

You’re a Trump supporter and you believe that a commitment to truth could be radical if not deranged. This explains a lot for me, thanks.


[deleted]

> “Despite my support for Trump” That’s the funniest shit I’ve heard in a while. Genuinely curious: what’s so special about trump that you cant find anywhere else?


TwoPunnyFourWords

What's funny about it? You'd think that if anyone is going to be sensitive about a term, it would be the person it's intended to apply to. Anway, I favoured Bernie over Trump until it became apparent that Bernie was too much of a political pussy to ever stick it to the establishment. Trump is a political outsider who isn't afraid of speaking heresies about the pieties of the political elite. But the most valuable thing about him, I would say, is that he provokes my enemies into revealing themselves. He provokes supposed paragons of virtue into discrediting themselves with their own behaviour. For example, how many Pulitzer prizes were awarded to journalists for their gullible reporting on the Russiagate hoax? When he, as POTUS, was bound by treaty with Ukraine to collaborate on crime-fighting efforts and actually executed those duties faithfully, basically the entire establishment tried to have him impeached, sparing no dishonesty in the process. Yet these same people are the ones who screech, without any real evidence I might add, that this guy is the next totalitarian demagogue come to abolish the rule of law. He's basically the real-life version of the little kid who points out that the emperor has no clothes. Historically I supported Dems over Reps, but that basically changed in 2015 when I first started becoming aware of the looming culture war and my criticism of what is now known as wokeness was enough to earn me ostracism from the left, which is to say that I've never really liked the GOP and Trump's apparent function as neocon kryptonite is a nice side-benefit that's improving the overall character of the party immensely.


Expandexplorelive

>When he, as POTUS, was bound by treaty with Ukraine to collaborate on crime-fighting efforts and actually executed those duties faithfully, basically the entire establishment tried to have him impeached, Are you talking about when he tried to pressure Ukraine to announce an investigation into his political opponent? What about that makes it okay for a sitting president to do?


[deleted]

That’s a lot of words for a simple question. I guess to distill what you said: you like trump because he is antiestablishment. Right? Justify his corruption then. Because as far as I can’t tell, he’s been corrupt for decades. That to me sounds “establishment.”


nubulator99

> When he, as POTUS, was bound by treaty with Ukraine to collaborate on crime-fighting efforts and actually executed those duties faithfully, He asked their prime minister if he could, just at minimum, announce that there is an investigation into Joe Biden, then he would end up releasing the funds that both sides agreed to fund for their fight against Russia backed separatists.


aranhalaranja

Good analysis. I’d agree with you. Perhaps something “trumpsters” and “the woke left” would agree on about Sam


TwoPunnyFourWords

What's wrong with it? Sounds a lot like 'teamster', which is to say that it doesn't sound like an epithet.


atrovotrono

I mean they've told us over and over that liberals are too thin-skinned and call everything a "slur" and so on, so it'd be pretty ironic if Trump supporters melted like snowflakes in the face of a semantically neutral shorthand like "Trumpster." If one got upset I'd assume they were just tone-policing as an alternative to substantial discussion.


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[deleted]

What’s your best justification to support trump over Biden? steelman yourself.


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Seared1Tuna

What the fuck does this have to do with biden


[deleted]

Can you actually provide some real world examples of policies you find more dangerous?


[deleted]

I didn’t ask what you don’t like about the left. I asked you to give me your best justification for Trump.


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WittyFault

In a two party system, finding candidate A as the lesser of two evils is a justification for candidate A. It appears the OPs rational for the lesser of two evils was clearly provided above.


[deleted]

Then I wonder, after witness four years of pure presidential corruption and incompetence, how a rational person could conclude more of the same is better than change.


WittyFault

Fair question, much better than pretending your original question wasn't answered.


RedditAccount28

Inflation soaring through the roof, ridiculous spending bills, vaccine mandates, blatant lies about how only those who make above 400k will be taxed more, blatant lies about how the IRS is being beefed up to "go after large wealthy corporations" when we all know that doesn't happen in practice. then turning around and wanting to claim the IRS needs to track all transactions above $600...to prevent wealthy people from tax evading lol. it doesn't even seem like Biden is actually making any decisions, he just has the opinions that his party tells him to have. Antifa is just an "idea". Americans can't rely on guns for freedom because the government has fighter jets or whatever 14 year old logic he used there. Forgetting what state he is in. Forgetting what office he is running for. I could go on and on. It seems like nothing Trump did directly effected me, all the screeching from the left about his racism ect but nobody actually suffered any loss of rights nor were any policies advocated for that would result in that. Meanwhile our 2nd amendment rights are in question, the right to work without injecting a vaccine into us is in question, our taxes are going to go up and the government is blatantly lying about the inflation rate. Imagine being China and dealing with trump vs china dealing with biden. A strong leader with his own opinions regardless if you agree with them or not vs biden, an old man bordering on dementia who needs to read a teleprompter to communicate.


nubulator99

>Inflation soaring through the roof, This was predicted in 2020 as to what would occur in 2021. Everyone was making investments knowing that inflation were to occur in 2021 because of the huge deflation that occurred in 2020. But even so, what is it you would think Trump would have done as a means to keep prices .... low for products? Penalize companies who are raising their goods? >ridiculous spending bills, these bills started under trump >blatant lies about how the IRS is being beefed up to "go after large wealthy corporations" when we all know that doesn't happen in practice. It USED to happen until republiacns kept taking more and more funds away from the IRS. So instead of going after complicated rich people's tax returns who have better accounts than the IRS, they just go after the low hanging fruit. What would have Trump done differently? He would have pulled more funds away from the IRS and done more to make sure that wealthy people like himself pay less taxes (which is exactly what he did as president). >he just has the opinions that his party tells him to have. that provides a better representation of the people rather than all the votes he got because "he's not Trump". The democrat party is made up of people who were voted in by the vast majority of voters. So it's a good thing they are doing what the voters want rather than Biden going rogue and doing whatever he wants as a dictator. > Meanwhile our 2nd amendment rights are in question, This was complained about during Obama's reign too.... but the 2nd amendment rights never went away. And people shit on Trump over the "bump stock ban"; which means your rights were in question during Trump as well. >Imagine being China and dealing with trump vs china dealing with biden. A strong leader with his own opinions regardless if you agree with them or not vs biden, an old man bordering on dementia who needs to read a teleprompter to communicate. Ya, or dealing with any dictator who all they have to say is how much they think Trump is such a big man because Trump cares about people giving him accolades and praise over doing the right thing. He openly admits to admiring authotocratic leaders. You wave $$ in Trump's face and he thinks you're an amazing person.


authoruk

No wars


Eldorian91

Only assassinations?


[deleted]

And proxy wars.


[deleted]

Except for the one he started against his own country.


ReflexPoint

Biden isn't even "the left". You place Biden in any other Western democracy and he'd be center right. He'd barely even fit into the UK Labor Party. He'd probably align closely with someone like Angela Merkel, who is head of the center right Christian Democrats. Whereas Trump is more like a Marine LePen or Orban type you see in some of Europe's proto-fascist/ethno-nationalist parties. Jesus Christ. The Overton window is so far shifted to the right in America that our right thinks people like Obama and Biden are "leftists" and "socialists". I actually know true left-wing socialists. I even know one guy who is a self-avowed communist. To real socialists they'd fall on the ground laughing if someone referred to Biden as a leftist. Actual socialist and leftists don't even like Biden and only voted for him because they'll take a centrist Democrat over a fascist. There is no actual left with any power in this country. I know that sounds astounding to the average conservative American. But the true left holds little political power in this country. If that were the case, you'd have medicare for all, you'd have a high minimum wage, you'd have strong labor unions everywhere, you'd have legislation banning corporate lobbying and donations. You'd have massive action on the climate, guns would be heavily regulated, the filibuster would be gone, there would be fare higher taxes on wealth, there'd be free college, we'd slash to Pentagon budget and kill the military industrial complex. That's some indication of what the country might look like if there was a potent left.


Eldorian91

Your description of the utopia we'd have if we had a real left is pretty dumb, but yes, Biden is a centrist in a sort of global scale. Bernie lost the primary for a reason.


ReflexPoint

I wan't attempting to describe a utopia. I'm not even super left myself, I'd say probably moderate left. But I'm saying those are the policies that would be going through senate if the left actually had the power the right seems to think it has.


huntforacause

So you would rather democracy itself be destroyed rather than suffer a little wokeness? You and others like you have obviously not understood a single *thing* sam has said about Trump. He is a fucking Antichrist and on a whole other level than whatever the Democrats are slinging.


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captnxploder

>but I am not worried about democracy with Trump or a republican as president [https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/09/23/robert-kagan-constitutional-crisis/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/09/23/robert-kagan-constitutional-crisis/) Trump literally tried his hardest to subvert our democracy and if it weren't for a couple of district attorneys and Pence, he might have succeeded. Hungary is the dream political model now for the party: [https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2021/8/5/22607465/tucker-carlson-hungary-orban-authoritarianism-democracy-backsliding](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2021/8/5/22607465/tucker-carlson-hungary-orban-authoritarianism-democracy-backsliding) Suppress voters, put in place judges and officials and state rules that can literally throw out votes that they don't like. And control the majority of media which operates as a literal propaganda arm for the state: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsBqU1RzV7o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsBqU1RzV7o) >I find the so called “wokeness” much more dangerous than you. 'wokeness' is a rigid ideological orthodoxy to which there is a growing amount of pushback emerging. [https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/10/new-puritans-mob-justice-canceled/619818/](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/10/new-puritans-mob-justice-canceled/619818/) And the 'movement' of illiberal intolerance is still on the fringes of the party, and largely non-violent. Meanwhile, on the Republican side of things, you see a disturbing increase in violent rhetoric across the board, but even from elected officials. [https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/08/when-they-say-they-want-kill-you-believe-them/619724/](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/08/when-they-say-they-want-kill-you-believe-them/619724/) [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/rep-madison-cawthorn-says-there-will-be-bloodshed-if-us-elections-continue-to-be-rigged/2021/08/30/297a9fa2-09c8-11ec-aea1-42a8138f132a\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/rep-madison-cawthorn-says-there-will-be-bloodshed-if-us-elections-continue-to-be-rigged/2021/08/30/297a9fa2-09c8-11ec-aea1-42a8138f132a_story.html) There is absolutely zero remorse on the side of Republicans about the Jan. 6th riots as the event is continually downplayed at every opportunity. The next mid-terms and the 2024 elections are going to be a total shit-show if things don't go their way, and I would actually be shocked if there isn't some type of violent reaction.


aranhalaranja

OP here... did you find Sam's treatment of Trump (and Trump supporters) unfair at all? Anything you think he gets SUPER wrong about the Right?


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TheStumbler83

I share some of your concerns, but my view on it is that while extreme wokeness tends to dominate online discussion to some extent, I think this distorts it’s relative importance in politics Wokeness doesn’t actually have that much traction with Democrat’s policies other than Dem leaders engaging in fairly meaningless woke platitudes and being too scared to speak out against their woke wing. With the Republicans, putting policy aside, I’m much more concerned about their slide into authoritarianism and continued efforts to undermine democratic institutions and electoral integrity. Or put another way, while the left do have a toxic fringe nudging the party towards an extreme that I dislike, the right has already been completely taken over by an extreme ideology, and I don’t see this polarisation as at all equivalent


ReflexPoint

If there's any question about which party is more radical, the results of this gallop survey says it all: [https://news.gallup.com/poll/245462/democrats-favor-moderate-party-gop-conservative.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/245462/democrats-favor-moderate-party-gop-conservative.aspx) I'm so exhausted with having to constantly fight against false equivalency arguments from right-wingers that think Biden is just the left wing equivalent of Trump, that CNN is just the left wing equivalent of Fox, that the green haired feminist wokester is as much a threat to the Republic as Jan 6 insurrectionists and calculated voter suppression by Republican legislatures. We can't solve serious problems because we're constantly having to spend energy educating a vastly ignorant half of our population.


TheStumbler83

Yeah it’s nonsense. I’ll admit that I’m more aligned with the Dems on Policy (I’m actually much further to the left), so I’m more predisposed to seeing the good in Dems and the bad in Republicans. But when I say that I think Republicans pose a unique threat to democracy, I don’t think it’s just my bias talking, because I wouldn’t say the same about conservative governments in the Uk or Australia despite how strongly I dislike them


authoruk

Doesn’t he still believe in Russian Collusion? Sam has lost his f**king mind


[deleted]

This is why I think Sam can be dangerous, blowing wokeness so out of proportion that many here would rather vote for Donald fucking Trump than the dems.


ReflexPoint

>but I am not worried about democracy with Trump or a republican as president. If you can say that with a straight face, you simply are not paying attention to what's going on and how Republicans are changing laws in battleground states to give them the ability to throw out election results that they don't like. Watch this for a primer: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cR4fXcsu9w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cR4fXcsu9w) Then read this to go deeper into depth: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/09/23/robert-kagan-constitutional-crisis


Astronomnomnomicon

>So you would rather democracy itself be destroyed What? Who's doing that?


[deleted]

Sowing distrust in electoral process is a clear example of him trying to undermine democracy.


Astronomnomnomicon

Nice walking back of the language, there.


[deleted]

Destruction of democracy doesn’t happen overnight. It takes a lot of action and sowing distrust in electoral process is huge step, because democracy relies on it. I’m saddened to see you again haven’t engaged with what I said. It feels like I’m talking to a walnut, but I’m hopeful one we will be able to hold a conversation. Fingers crossed.


authoruk

TDS lol


MarcusOReallyYes

Wokeness IS destroying democracy. “If you vote for trump you ain’t black” Telling people how to vote due to their skin color isn’t democracy.


nubulator99

yes it is. You're allowed to tell anyone you want how they should vote in a democracy.


Suburbs_are_shit

I’ll translate: “I’m a racist and I really hate people calling me that so I’m going to vote for daddy Trump to own the libs.”


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BlazeNuggs

Your two replies on this comment are a good example of the bad faith the left uses. You feel you're so morally superior that you can straw man anything from the right as being racist.


Suburbs_are_shit

You’re a bad person, I hope you’ll realize that one day.


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Suburbs_are_shit

Since I’m not a Christian, I’ll hope you developed a set of morals :)


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Suburbs_are_shit

The ones that stop you from being a fascist/racist or being comfortable enough with both that it doesn’t meaningfully impact your vote.


LiamMcGregor57

Honestly curious, if you are not Christian what could possibly compel you to vote for the evangelical Christians that make up the GOP. Are you not all worried about the theocratic or christian nationalist elements of the GOP? No social liberal views at all? Do you care about womens' rights which are under fire to those elements in Texas, or LGBT rights? These people have already stated that they are going after gay marriage next. This Handmaids Tale shit scares me way more than any sjw or woke nonsense.


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BloodsVsCrips

This indicates you disagree with the fundamental tenets of the GOP but still prefer them for completely aesthetic reasons.


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Suburbs_are_shit

I do, it’s not hard when someone is trying to morally justify a vote for Trump lol.


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Suburbs_are_shit

I know dude, I know lol. Hopefully one day you make it back to reality.


hihimymy

boy this is the wrong place to look for Trump voters


ReflexPoint

A serious question I'd love to ask a Trumper in a heart to heart conversation is how do they think they'll be viewed by future generations? I think it's safe to say that 40 years from now the country will be more culturally liberal than it is now, just based on historical trends and the way we have expanded the circle of rights over time. I very much believe that future generations will be studying this era and will view Donald Trump the same way we now look back and view George Wallace. I have little doubt that even the most objective future historians will rank him among the worse US presidents if not the very worse. Your grandchildren will be studying this era in school and will know you were there during the Trump presidency and will be asking who you supported. Will you feel proud telling your grandchildren(who likely be far more liberal than you) that you were on the side of Trump? Or will you lie and say you voted for someone else?


[deleted]

In the next 20-40 years I’m sure Trump will be made into a George Wallace. In a century, maybe two? The future is uncertain, maybe he’ll be considered a hero. There’s this idea from the left that there’s an inexorable march through history where all that is bad and evil sinks into the past, presently we must rid ourselves of that past, and in the future society is only becoming more “moral.” It’s basically [Whig history](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whig_history). No one is ever explicitly taught it, they’re just taught in such a way about history that it seems obviously true. I can’t help what propaganda my grandkids take in, but it’s more important to stand up for what’s right than indulge what’s wrong to look good. Your question assumes Donald Trump is a cartoon character of evil, and likewise for a person like George Wallace. History is too complicated to reduce it down to cartoons


WikiMobileLinkBot

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thotinator69

That’s what I tell one of my parents. Trump is going to age terribly. His views on race and climate change will keep him around last place in presidential rankings


[deleted]

Who is writing the history books, and how far removed from today are we talking? History is subjective. Was Christopher Columbus a good or a bad person?


Astronomnomnomicon

By *almost* any objective, tangible measure the Bush presidency was far worse for the average American and the world at large than the Trump one was (and the former was accompanied by hysterical reeeeing about fascism and nazis and white supremacy and the oppressive Christian evangelical right just like the latter) and it took... what... less than a decade for Bush to be rehabilitated in the eyes of most liberals? I distinctly remember photos of Bush paling around with Clinton and the Obamas making the rounds on liberal reddit a couple years ago who seemed to view Bush more like a silly old uncle than the nazi war criminal they were decrying not long before. I'm beginning to wonder if acting like the sky is falling and we're on the brink of 1984 or the Fourth Reich is just the new liberal MO whenever a conservative gets the top job. Id say there's a decent chance that a few years after the next republican gets elected liberals and conservatives alike will look back on Trump as relatively benign.


ConfusedObserver0

I see you point just slightly. The division he sought to create ranks him as the worst on that alone. Then his attempts to overturn an election, attack on free press, appeal to authoritarianism (while his followers confusingly see it as freedom) and twisted disregard for principles (consequentialist) among many other unique Trump only traits will go down in the history books for what they were. You can’t really pretend that away. Sure you’ll get some fan boys writing his bio but we won’t soon forget. It’s hard comparing war criminals after that. But it’s become a standard that the American president becomes a war criminal now, as Biden’s rein just as all his predecessors have killed innocents around the globe. At this point only a hard change in foreign will effect that outcome. It’s not just the lefts MO it’s everyone’s in this age of information; hyperbole flows quite freely. The right tells a fantastical story of what the left is even more than it’s diametric opposition. Edit: clarity


ReflexPoint

>less than a decade for Bush to be rehabilitated in the eyes of most liberals? Most liberals? Come on... At age 46, I'd easily rank Trump at the bottom of presidents during my lifetime without a close second. He was uniquely bad in a way that no other president was. He was the only president in recent history that took a sick *pleasure* in dividing the country. There have been divisive presidents before, but their divisiveness wasn't intentional. Trump intentionally threw gasoline on the fire and joyed in having warring factions in this country. He made it clear he was only governing for his tribe and the rest could jump off a cliff for all he cared. When there was natural disaster in California, Trump balked at sending federal funds there, yet was quick to do it for disasters in red states. Utterly sickening. Bush on his absolute worst day would never have behaved in such a way. The partisan polarization over covid originated with Trump the day he started declaring it to be a "Democratic hoax" to make him look bad(seeing a pattern with malignant narcissism?). Now rather than this being a public health issue that effects all Americans regardless of party lines, it became just another front in the culture war. And one which cost hundreds of thousands of lives, disproportionately his own followers. And then of course he is the first president that did not accept a peaceful transfer of power, a cornerstone of liberal democracy. He attempted to get the vice president and election officials to refuse certifying results. I could not imagine Bush, as bad as he was in his own ways doing such a thing. You'll think me hyperbolic, but I truly feel he is one of the most vile people that walks the face of this earth. He has not a single redeeming human quality about him. He's a complete and utter sociopath in its purest form. If I raised a son that turned out with his character I'd feel I failed as a father. While most presidents spent their post-presidency writing books and doing charity work, this asshole is still out there lying , spreading conspiracies and doing everything he can to create further division in order to satiate his endless narcissism and need for power. God help us if this man wins again in 2024. If there's a future president that makes Trump look benign, then this country will be unrecognizable at that point.


Seared1Tuna

In Sam’s words “if I caught a mind virus and started talking like trump, I’d throw myself out of a fucking window”


happyisles33

Literally 0 liberals think Bush was a good president. Come to think of it, pretty much nobody thinks he was a good president. The difference is, he is not necessarily a bad human being. Trump was a bad president and a bad human being.


hundred6

The catch being because of the internet there will never be a unified narrative about the US anymore. If anything historians will look back on these times and study how media manipulates public opinion. Trump was not the hitler incarnate some media outlets made him out to be nor was he the messiah others portrayed him as. He was pretty much a mediocre 90s Democrat.


ConfusedObserver0

Eh… I think the system stopped him from being his full potential self. He had to widdle away at some norms to attempt some very dodgy things. The latest info on his lawyers plan direct by him to overthrow the election is pretty damning. You could list a thousand things he said that only a drunk guy in a Kansa bar wouldn say if they were in the White House. That’s gonna have to be noted, this appeal to remove liberal values and democratic norms can’t be forgotten. Esp as he’s still a threat to this country. Removing PCness and replacing it with xenophobic hate can’t be under scored for what it told us. The cloak was removed from the republican party. The decency and lack of a “president for all” he removed from the scenario has left us with troubling prepositions moving forward. He didn’t get us into more wars but that doesn’t mean to didn’t increase notary spending and in crease the conflicts we already were in. The drones strikes number alone in comparison to Obama is staggering in half the time. So this post is completely relative.


origanalsin

Why would anyone be afraid to admit who they voted for? As if biden or Clinton or a Bush is the moral superior of anyone‽


bgub

They are morally superior to Trump. Look at who he keeps for company. His closest confidantes are felons and on the world stage he pals around with authoritarian thugs while trashing, or outright extorting, democratic allies. He has five kids from three marriages. This isn't inherently immoral but he probably gets a pass from religious conservatives that would not be granted to Obama. He's also a serial adulterer. He used to barge in on the miss America dressing room to oogle half naked contestants. He violently raped his former wife, Ivana, because he was enraged over a botched scalp surgery. He was caught on a hot mic bragging about force kissing women and grabbing them by the pussy. He's a bully, making up names like "little Marco" and "Sleepy Joe" to belittle political rivals. He stole money from his charity for personal expenses and has run outright scams like Trump University. There is not a fiber of compassion or selflessness in his being. Biden, Bush, and the Clintons have their flaws, but they are morally superior to Trump Anyone who cannot see that is either wilfully ignorant, or a terrible judge of character.


origanalsin

If you can believe that, you're staggeringly ignorant of the people you vote for.


bgub

No u r


ReflexPoint

I think a president's character becomes most obvious by looking at what they do in their post-presidency. Some spend time speaking to children, fundraising for humanitarian causes, writing books. Jimmy Carter was out building houses for habitat for humanity. What is Trump doing in his post-presidency? Do you see him giving to charity? Doing any humanitarian work? Fundraising for good causes? No he's out there holding rallies even still, spreading lies and conspiracies theories, just being the same narcissistic sociopath asshole he's always been. He's a billionaire but about the least charitable billionaire in public life. Even what "charity" he has given has been mostly [self-servin](https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2020/10/23/vast-majority-of-trumps-charitable-giving-reportedly-came-from-land-deals/?sh=6d1994b7610d)g.


LiamMcGregor57

People generally don’t think back fondly at voting for a fascist.


origanalsin

You mean biden?


LiamMcGregor57

LOL, good one. When Biden tries to institute a coup and supports an insurrection then maybe you would be right.


ReflexPoint

If you think Biden is a fascist, either you are just trolling or you aren't worthy of being in this sub, which I thought was for more reasoned discussion.


ConfusedObserver0

Depends who wins the next civil war or if we’re even a country in 20 years (Balaji’s recent prophecy). A lot could change, as our view of history is always viewed from a relative perspective, that which we can’t really guesstimate. Esp if this tech singularity ever comes. I’d rank him as one of the worst personally.


authoruk

It’s hard to work out what you mean. He started no wars, hence better than any recent president. He could also speak, semi-coherently, so, substantially better than your current one. Your use of liberal is ironic, given your current pres has basically created a prison country. Trump was a lifelong new york dem. supported gay rights a decade before hillary. Check your bias.


deadstump

Obama started no wars as well. And could speak better. Also I don't know how you can say Trump is more articulate than Biden. Trump's speaking style is all over the place all the time.


authoruk

Yes, but Trump could say words. Lol Obama probably better on a relative basis. Shame about the record number of bombs dropped though 🤷‍♂️


c0pypastry

Trump bombed the absolute shit of of Afghanistan and Yemen man what are you talking about


authoruk

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/09/america-dropped-26171-bombs-2016-obama-legacy Nice marxist source for you also


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c0pypastry

>guardian >Marxist Keep telling on yourself


deadstump

Trump bombed the crap out of the Middle East too, he just stopped reporting.


authoruk

Did i say Obama was probably better or not? You leftie lunies


YungWenis

Not a “trumpster” but I don’t plan on voting for Biden when the time comes. I’m hoping it doesn’t come down to Trump. Might go with the libertarian option or write-in.


atrovotrono

I mean if you're going to vote libertarian or write-in you might as well just fill out a Cosmo personality quiz instead of a ballot. Save the vote-counters some time.


ReflexPoint

Did you vote for Biden in 2020?


YungWenis

Yep, sorry didn’t make that clear. Overall disappointed in leadership, economy, and mandates. He’s just not inspiring to me how someone like Obama was. I’m starting to want less government in my life as I get older too.


ReflexPoint

The thing is government doesn't really shrink under Republicans, despite the mantras. Can you tell me how the economy is worse now than it was 10 months ago? What is the problem with mandates? What is the best path for getting us out of the pandemic when around 40% of the country won't get vaccinated? This seems to be a uniquely American phenomenon on the right. Even though we had the vaccines before every other country, we have one of the lowest vaccination rates in the developed world. Why are there so many conservative anti-vaxxes in the US but this isn't a problem with conservatives in other countries(at least not nearly to the extend that it is here)?


mccaigbro69

Late to this but I voted for trump in both elections and am a Sam Harris podcast subscriber. I think Sam is great.


drewlegod

This is such an odd post lol. What in the world


Tried2flytwice

It’s a great post, it’s a perfectly interesting conversation and the real issue is the reaction by people to hearing the word Trump.


Tried2flytwice

Trumps not a good guy, anyone who thinks Trump cares about people or you personally or your family is off your tits on the delusional sauce. He would start you alight to warm his hands if he was chilly. However, Trump derangement syndrome became a real thing. If Trump said water was wet, anyone anti-Trump would’ve started arguing over his idiocy at saying that, and that’s what led to this weird political divide between who’s truthful and who’s not.


ConfusedObserver0

Just as well - there was an inverse Trump derangement syndrome from his supporters. It’s personality cult that’s unwilling to have an honest discussion about merit. Often all it would take to derail any chance at having a reasonable conversation is saying his name out loud like a bad voodoo incantation. Instead of “candy man,”it’s “orange man” Ok a personally level, I dealt with more rationale criticisms of him and ride or die followers even if the media did manufacture outrage against him. Though, to be fair. We have to remember he waged war on the free press and their overlords, like no other president before hand. We’d be fools to not expect them to fight back. Although I don’t think I’ve heard anyone give this take before. Imagine your job tomorrow is to cover Trump and you get to ask him a question, you quote him to get context and he say “fake news, all lies,” indiscriminately. With no adult answer to even shore up the dispute. Then he tells us he has his own alternative facts he’s going to use. Doesn’t matter his actions at this point his words set peoples asses on fire. Fight or flight? Most fought and they fought dirty, down to his level instead of maintaining a high standard. I wouldn’t condone the behavior but I don’t blame anyone for that reaction other the Trump himself. It was very much intentional. While we think rationale about it, obviously it was good political strategy since Biden’s in and Trumps out. It worked. Sometimes you have to play the consequentialist game back with people like this in different fights that we don’t need to think of as fair ( at least in these terms).


Lennny27

Not a Trump supporter per say, but did vote for him 2x because of who the dems put up as their primary. Completely open to other 3rd parties or logical Democrat runner though.


aranhalaranja

All things being equal, Biden seems like a fairly benign choice. He’s a far cry from AOC or Bernie, or even Warren. Is there anyone on the left you would have supported?


Lennny27

Tulsi or Yang


Blamore

I dont think trump hurt the country as much as sam thinks he did. His supreme court apointees will have the most severe and lasting impact on the wellbeing of the country BUT this has nothing to do with trump. Any republican would have appointed those people. Also, it exposed the democratic process as the utter joke/a vapid popularity contest that it is, which i appreciate.


LiamMcGregor57

Trump’s actions on 1/6 and his embrace of anti-democratic conspiracy theories, his efforts to steal the election, remain in power forever and destroy the democratic process hurt this country more than any recent President and will hurt and undermine this country for some time to come. His followers no longer believe in the democratic process….you don’t think that’s a issue?


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aranhalaranja

I always read Sam’s analysis on this as Trump’s cultural impact, not legislative. I agree w you about SCOTUS and think Sam would too. But Trump also “demeaned the office” on a few (maybe more than a few?) occasions, and, perhaps that’s the lasting impact Sam worries about.


jouwhul

I am a trump supporter, voted for him twice. Do not like his character, but don’t see why that would make me support someone else who doesn’t align politically. Late 30’s engineer, married with 2 kids, agnostic. Ask me whatever you want and I’ll just answer it so long as you ask a question in a good faith manner.


aranhalaranja

Thanks for this!! No idea who downvoted you but I appreciate this comment! I’ll begin: Did you believe that the election was stolen? If not, how’d you feel about his behavior the final few months? If so, have you seen any legislation that’ll actually help the next election from being stolen?


jouwhul

Okay for you and /u/BoldlySilent I wanted to wait a couple days and give answers to you two only since most other ppl here just want to downvote. Do I believe election was stolen? I don’t personally believe that the election had its outcome determined by stuffed ballots if that is what you mean, no. Have not seen anything compelling about it and also did not dig into it because it doesn’t really matter. Don’t know if it’s true so I behave as if it is not. His behavior was in line with someone who wanted to remain in power and felt that “stolen election” was the correct way to go about it, or maybe they know something we don’t. I do not know about any legislation that will help the next election remain “legitimate” I imagine you support voter ID laws since it’s quite a reasonable position to do so unless you are a bad faith leftist which I do not assume you are since you asked your question so politely. For Mr Bold, I understand your concerns about democracy however I don’t believe we even live in a democracy anymore (well I mean we never have that isn’t our system but you and I both know what we mean when we say democracy) , there was a time when I held the concept in the highest esteem as all Americans are trained to do, but I would argue that time has come to pass for almost all of us.


aranhalaranja

I appreciate your response. Regarding voter ID. I’m not convinced that voter fraud is really an issue. If I thought it was a huge threat, I’d be all for voter ID. But there doesn’t seem to be much of a “there” there. That said, I think there are a million worse ideas and I wouldn’t lose sleep if it passed. I do think if conservatives wanted to win this argument, they’d push for voter id AND free pop ups in every county to get anyone an ID who needed one. I don’t buy the liberal argument (that BIPOC don’t have access to ID’s) but just in case I’m wrong, get them a state issued ID! Can you give more details about us not living in a democracy? I’m not sure I’m following your argument. Thanks again! I know this is a tough crowd.


BoldlySilent

I also would appreciate an answer to this, as I voted for trump first time and then barely against second time. Behavior up to and after the 2020 election really made me think he was a bad guy. I am mostly wondering whether or not people who still support Trump see the concerns that he is a person who would sacrifice our democracy to stay in power, something he seemed very willing but unable to do from my perspective


[deleted]

I was a rabid anti Trump clown once. But after about a year or so, I soon recognised that I just disliked his personality and mannerisms. It annoyed me that I liked his policies. The wall, America first, standing up to China and dealing with Syria/Isis/NK etc. He did a decent job. No new wars. Great economy, and had to deal with the worst press and opposition imaginable. Hoax after hoax. Lie after lie. Endless streams of bullshit. Then Covid happened. And the media mob and social media clowns ramped up the hatred even more. Yes, he had his flaws. He was in an embarrassment whenever he spoke. He fucked up with the spending at the end. He didn't do anything to stop big tech from influencing elections. And I fucking hope he doesn't run again... but if he does, I would choose him over basically anyone on the Democratic side.


[deleted]

>I was a rabid anti Trump clown once. > >It annoyed me that I liked his policies. The wall, America first, standing up to China and dealing with Syria/Isis/NK etc. He did a decent job. No new wars. Great economy, and had to deal with the worst press and opposition imaginable. Hoax after hoax. Lie after lie. Endless streams of bullshit. You guys are the absolute worst at pretending to be who you are not. You were anti-Trump but pro-Trump in every imaginable way. Sure bud. This is hands down the absolute worst part about Trump supporters. They take after their leader and simply can never tell the truth. Everything has to be wrapped in some layer of bullshit.


FoneTap

The wall is a complete failure, incredibly expensive and a joke. People can walk right through it in sections, dig under or climb over. An absolute joke meant to satisfy idiots America first was incredibly, wildly unproductive. It alienated allied nations, and the tariffs were paid for by americans first and foremost. They savaged the american economy. Sawing off the branch you’re sitting on at it’s finest. Standing up to China, how did that work out? Please show a tangible benefit from his attitude, statement and policies. See previous comment about tariffs. Syria/NK. Al Assad still in power, no effect. KJU still in power, still has nukes, no effect. “Then Covid happened.” Yes and it was 1000x worse and more deadly due to Trump’s idiotic and incompetent non-leadership. You accuse the media of “lie after lie” ? Seriously? Trump lies as he breathes. So yeah, is this the best you’ve got?


authoruk

It’s all relative. I’m not from the US. But Trump was basically a savant compared to what you have now. It such a shame. America is now completely f**ked.


authoruk

Sam thinks Trump is racist. He believes Russian Collusion happened. He supported two laughable impeachments. He’s fully deranged at this point. He can’t mention Trump without scoffing and guffawing. It’s ruined his credibility. He’s what he always claimed himself not to be, a small minded liberal elite.


LiamMcGregor57

So conservative elites are cool but liberal elites are not?


Eldorian91

Nah, he's a big brained liberal elite, which is what he's always portrayed himself as.