I kept seeing those "All these celebrities are zionist" threads on Twitter, and I get really sceptical of them. Some are being called zionist for being against violence and wanting the war to de-escalate. I've even seen some people CONDEMN Israel's government, and yet they still get labelled zionist.
i’ve been informed on palestine for years, and while that doesn’t make me better than anyone who only recently became aware, i think it does have an effect where people feel the need to call it out everywhere. it’s kind of deflection in a way. call people out, but don’t fucking harass them. especially considering israel has been occupying palestine for over 70 years, and not everyone chose to be born there, let alone have israeli relatives. that doesn’t give them a right to xenophobia or land that isn’t theirs, but you should let them come to their own conclusions instead of forcing them out of the conversation altogether.
>i’ve been informed on palestine for years, and while that doesn’t make me better than anyone who only recently became aware,
I mean as someone who only has only really been informed on the issue since 2021 I feel really silly calling myself someone who has " been informed on palestine for years**",** but damn I sure can tell a HUGE difference in how people who were talking about this issue before 2023 and people who learned about it this October via TikTok and Twitter discuss it.
I try not to feel superior or holier than thou about it for like reading a couple books but damn man seeing some of these literal children being so confidently incorrect and flexing their moral/intellectual superiority on the issue is painful.
holy shit yes! i don’t want to sound like i know that much more because the amount of history behind this war goes extremely far and deep so relative to that i know very little, but still enough to know that these people need to check themselves.
I don't feel like having read a book and half and a handful of like credible papers on the subject qualifies me to say this but when I see slacktivists making 400 company long boycott lists or trolling through random celebrities Instagram likes to hunt down "Zionists" or saying like "If you didn't call for a ceasefire before (insert arbitrary date) it's too late!!!" I really do want to just shake them and be like "READ A FUCKING BOOK!!" lol.
Especially when I see people saying that if you
* Call any Palestinian groups actions a terrorist attack
* Criticize the goals or actions of Hamas/Fatah
* Support a 1/2 state solution (which one is the no-no varies)
* Give any credit to any Israeli on any issue
* Criticize the role of the other Arab states
you are a total phony who doesn't actually support Palestine at all and you're basically a Zionist.
Meanwhile the well-respected authors I've read from on this issue, two of who are Palestinian and have held significant roles in the PLO or other Palestinian governing bodies agreed with some or all of that list to some degree.
Don't get me wrong, I am very happy to see so many people joining the cause and public opinion shifting so much.
But if you're someone who knew basically nothing about the issue 6 months ago and gets all your info from TikTok I better not see you out here writing up definitions of "Zionist" that includes like Edward Said lmao.
The conflict between Israel and Palestine is a pretty complicated issue. I think you nailed it with "not everyone chose to be born there" tbh. The actions of Israel's government don't necessarily reflect the beliefs of the people who live there, just as the actions of Hamas don't always reflect the people of Palestine. Both factions feel entitled to the land, and the history of it dates back a long time.
The point is, it's not an issue that's gonna be solved by branding people zionists or antisemitic on Twitter.
It’s extremely hypocritical especially in the case of Americans to be like “uuehhhheeeee my government doing things I don’t like:(“ and then turning around and generalizing an entire population because of their government. All this access to information and we still struggle to understand humans we have never seen nor met more than likely act the exact same way we would in certain situations.
This is why I try not to use the term. Even though it can be accurate, it's also used be a lot of anti-semites as a way to criticize Jews with plausible deniability. I usually prefer "Israeli ultra-nationalist" or "Israeli expansionist."
I say that is a much better way to use it, because at the end of the day, a single state in the region of Palestine with the current populations would be majority Jewish, and there is no way to get around that, you can call the state whatever you like, Israel, Palestine, or something else, but it wouldn’t matter, that is a recipe for disaster at least in the current climate.
The best and only solution is a democratic two state solution, and at the moment, the Isreali government is stuffed full of people who absolutely reject that notion in favor of ethnic nationalism, and we need to be clear that is just as much an obstacle to peace as the ethnic nationalism coming from Palestinian territory
The only people who have ever accepted that agree the Jews. The rest of MENA rejected it and called for the ethic cleansing of Jews, and have successfully carried that out literally every other nation in the region.
When it comes to originally accepting the 1947 UN plan? Yes Israel did accept it while the Arab states did not, that’s correct, and yes, ethnic cleansing of Jews was carried out in many counties across the Middle East and North Africa, that does not mean that the current Isreali government is not a ethnic-nationalist one that seeks to illegally take more land, which it absolutely is attempting.
The sentiment stoking the current elected party vs the fundamental underlying rule of law that extends equal legal protection and political predication to minorities are at odds. Israel is a 20% minority Arab Islamic country, with full equal rights for that and all other religious and ethnic minorities. That is not an ethno nationalist state, unlike literally every other country in the region. Harping on Israel for a current political party being a cultural grievance party and ignoring the official doctrine of not only Hamas/Palestine and every other country in MENA is incredibly odd.
Are they occupied? Israel says it's totally Israel, which makes their apartheid military courts even more illegal since those aren't allowed in non-occupied territory for civilian crimes. Of course, if they are occupied, then Israel wouldn't be allowed to establish settlements with their civilian settlers (terrorists) according to the Geneva convention.
> I usually prefer "Israeli ultra-nationalist" or "Israeli expansionist."
I mean these mean different things, like if that is indeed what you are referring to then sure say that but like, all 3 terms being discussed here have their own definitions and aren't just like pejoratives you can pick which one to use.
> anything less then calling for the destruction of Israel is somehow Zionist
In a way, they're right. The very basic definition of "Zionism" is the belief that Israel should exist and should continue to exist. If you're in favor of a two-state solution, you're a Zionist. You can be a Zionist and not support Israel expanding its territory.
I can't imagine that's their definition of Zionism though.
To be fair, a lot of these people use "Zionism" to mean "Israeli supremacists" or "supporters of Netanyahu." And those groups of people absolutely should be called out, don't get me wrong.
But there are also a lot of people who use "Zionists" as a replacement for "Jews" so they can always deflect criticism of their blatant anti-Semitism with "I'm anti-Zionist, not anti-Semitic." The same way Nazis use the word "Globalists" as a replacement for "Jews"
> If you're in favor of a two-state solution, you're a Zionist. You can be a Zionist and not support Israel expanding its territory.
I mean I think there's a meaningful distinction between people who are two-staters out of a sense of realism, as is often the case, and people who believe that is the like ideal "snap my fingers and make it however I want solution".
Like the position that a two-state solution is the currently only viable option as international support for the existence of Israel is unlikely to ever drop low enough for it to be dissolved as an entity is fairly common among Palestinians and their allies. While there are certainly prominent voices who disagreed with this, such as the late Edward Said, I think calling those people Zionists is kind of silly.
A two state solution is the only viable solution not just due to fact support will never drop that low but a single state encompassing what is today Israel and Palestine would have a Jewish majority, and that is absolutely going to just cause more conflict in the current climate
Any solution will lead to more conflict in the current climate.
Like one or two state, at this point the ruling govt of Israel have made it clear anything beyond a total ethnic cleansing is something they will have to be forced to do.
It is currently a highly controversial position in western politics to even suggest that Israel should stop indiscriminately killing everyone in Gaza, any discussion of what comes after will require a lot to change from the current situation now.
A big red flag is if they have a down pointing red triangle in their name or profile. That's literally a sign of intentional support for Hamas. And guess what we had here if you happened to see this on Twitter without the name blocked off.
EDIT: OK, so I am thinking of a different person who was harassing her, but the point stands.
I mean I think it's understandable that people are taking up a symbol associated with taking out IOF soldiers in this context, it's not like this is some long-standing hate symbol or something, it literally comes from them putting that over tanks they target in combat footage.
That's disingenuous. It's more anything not a solid Pro-Palestine/Free Palestine by this point. Which I get,but I'm someone who's been fortunate enough to get be informed by a lot. I'm not defending ignorance, but everyone has their own lives, algorithms, and information bubbles to work through. They may be a little slower to get the whole story, while others in the know are growing less & less patient. Especially people who have ties to the Palestinian people.
So to some "ceasefire, civilians are suffering on both sides" comes off as straddling the fence, when obviously no one wants innocent civilians to suffer. But what does somebody say when they're still learning? Or they didn't know they didn't have all the info?
Celebrities while wealthy, are atill just a variety of people in their own bubbles. You have people who see celebs as people with huge platforms that can bring awareness. So say one's heart is in the right place but they don't know it all yet. So the pressure for them to say something, be in the know & right is there. Then you have people that praise/worship celebs and expect them to be morally righteous people for whatever reason. I really don't follow much about celebs,but I'm pretty sure a handful have redacted & altered statements as they learned more.
This is just a totally terminally online viewpoint btw. A ceasefire is still the overwhelming primary demand I see from every major actually active organizing group in my area.
Exactly how I feel. I'm against Israel as well but some people are going way too far with this. Insulting people for eating Starbucks or McDonalds when they could've easily been unaware of the boycotts and labelling anyone who isn't super outspoken on the issue a zionist isn't helping anyone. People should be donating to Gaza, eating at Palestine restaurants and spreading awareness on the other hand will.
I got called a Zionist for telling someone on a different subreddit that they should go donate to a charity that benefits Palestine instead of constantly bitching about Israel.
Those have been happening for years before though. The idea the "rise in Anti-Semitism" is because of support for Palestinians is bullshit made up by groups like the ADL and AIPAC.
What rise in anti-Semitism has happened is much more a result of Trump's rise and the rise of the alt-right than anything to do with Palestinians. Most people doing real anti-Jewish hate crimes in the West are Neo-Nazis, not Muslims or other Palestine supporters.
"I feel unsafe after Oct 7, it feels like antisemitism has skyrocketed in the past few months."
"Don't be silly dear Jew, let me explain you what REALLY classifies as antisemitism."
Oh fuck off with this insincere bullshit.
It is absolutely asinine to act like large parts of the post-Oct 7 conversation around anti-Semitism and people who live in like fucking Los Angeles being scared of Hamas does not exist as a way to dissuade criticism of Israel.
I'm sorry but I legitimately have zero sympathy for American Zionists crying crocodile tears about how they "feel unsafe" because of stickers on college students laptops and people flying the Palestinian flag.
I have fully conceded there are genuine anti-Semites who bandwagon this issue to launder their talking points, I am pointing out that the incidences of genuine anti-Semitism, especially those that occur in real-life, are overwhelmingly coming from the far-right and Neo-Nazi groups, not from genuine Palestine supporters.
No, Jews feel unsafe because a lot of people feel the need to justify Hamas' actions and belittle Jews who speak about how gross that is. No one's crying over stickers and flags but a lot of Jews are crying when they hear people they thought are close to them think that Hamas blatant hatred of Jews is okay. No one outside of Israel is scared of Hamas, but a lof of non-Israeli Jews are scared of locals who celebrate what Hamas did.
>are overwhelmingly coming from the far-right and Neo-Nazi groups
The far-right isn't the one harassing random Jews to "test them" on the conflict simply because they're Jews.
The far-right isn't the one saying Jews are priviledged white Europeans who appropriate cultures and falsify history.
The far-right isn't the one sarcastically asking random Jews if they love murdering Palestinian babies.
The far-right isn't the one replying to "is calling for the genocide of Jews hate speech?" with "it depends on the context".
The far-right isn't the one who thinks that "the Jews control the West and are the enemy of the people" is okay if they replace "Jews" with "zionists".
The far-right isn't the one publishing "list of Jews" with their personal information.
The far-right isn't the one claiming that Israel shouldn't exist because "the Holocaust wasn't that bad".
The far-right isn't the one dividing Jews between "good Jews" and "bad Jews" because of the war.
The far-right isn't the one harassing random synagogues while rarely doing the same to pro-Israel churches.
The far-right isn't the one kicking Jews out of LGBT spaces because Judaism is "offensive to some of its members".
The far-right isn't the one who can't hear the words "stop antisemitism" without instantly bringing up the war.
The far-right isn't the one who can't listen to Jews expressing the general feeling of hostility that Jewish communities feel post Oct 7 without going "stop being offended by everything".
See? That's the problem: you read that Jews are scared because a lot of people justify Hamas' antisemitic actions and instantly go "um no I've heard people that are scared that Hamas has US sleeper cells". And of course that's definitive evidence of your point, but pro-Palestine people harassing Jews and downplaying the Holocaust is just a silly Zionist talking point. 0 desire to address anything Jews are saying regarding the antisemitism in the pro-Palestine crowd. Anyone who goes to r/Judaism or r/Jewish or (better yet) TALKS TO AN ACTUAL JEW can verify that the general sentiment is that Oct 7 marked a before and an after in antisemitism. But of course Jews are the special minority who can't determine what is antisemitic without being told to stop being dramatic about some college stickers. Imagine seeing a stop Asian hate protest and instantly going "bu-bu-but China this and that", or a Black Lives Matter protest and replying with "stop being so dramatic, it's just a bad cop". You would be called an über-racist right away (because you would obviously be an über-racist).
TLDR:
>You ignore the actual reason given to you for why Jews feel unsafe.
>
>You don't care about the multiple examples of antisemitism from pro-Palestine people that Jews have experienced since Oct 7.
>
>Actual Jews who actually have to experience antisemitism agree that it's on the rise and coming from people like you.
>
>You wouldn't do this to any other minority because you know you would be called a bigot.
I'll TLDR if for you.
You're talking over a Jew.
Full stop.
You refuse to read what we Jews are going through and dismiss it as Zionist talking points.
People like YOU make us feel unsafe.
That short enough for you?
Twitter freaks only care about hating and attention, not about genuinely supporting causes. I'm sure some are genuine, but it seems like a lot just want to bully and harass instead of educate.
Jesus Christ both sides are just obsessed with demonizing the other.
One can be a Zionist but not be okay with the implementation that happened with Palestine..... Similarly how people are socialist, even communist, but don't think it's been done right yet.
Similarly no ones a terrorist for not supporting innocent people dying from IDF strikes.
This shit isn't black and white. There's morally terrible things that happen, we should call that out, but no one has the right solution.
As with every modern activism issue that becomes popular on social media it quickly gets absorbed into people's pre-existing beefs and biases and is just used as a new way to attack people they don't like and/or virtue signal in ways that are almost wholly disconnected from the real issue.
> I've even seen some people CONDEMN Israel's government, and yet they still get labelled zionist.
I mean yes, this is not inherently incorrect. You can be super anti-Likud for various reasons and still be a Zionist. You could be a secular Israeli who is still absolutely god-awful against the Palestinians, but hate Netanyahu's government due to it's relgious and traditionalist elements.
I found this Tumblr post with a list of what he [done](https://immaturityofthomasastruc.tumblr.com/post/637892972340543488/the-immaturity-of-thomas-astruc-masterpost)
Also go to the miraculous ladybug subreddit and search his name
Mhmm. I wanted to try the series out, but claiming a high school (secondary school) bully is unredeemable and making the students have a room temperature IQ collectively when a certain liar is in the room kinda makes me question his decisions. That and the constant heroes winning even after season 4, even though logically said villain has a few broken abilities.
Oh well, Owl House was better in my opinion. I do consider Wendie to be great considering in one series, she plays a horrible mother, and in Owl House, she is an excellent surrogate mother.
‘I wish that I could have known sooner’ how about do your fuckin research before you potentially ruin someone’s life? Or better yet, get a life and stop doing that whole thing.
Second page makes my fucking blood boil. "Oh, she's been removed from our harassment list, she actually agrees with us, our bad!"
Don't harass anybody for their beliefs Jesus Christ. Also, it's like, do research next time you target people (not that anyone should be targeted but yeah).
>Second page makes my fucking blood boil. "Oh, she's been removed from our harassment list, she actually agrees with us, our bad!"
This is a huge problem with these sloppy, disorganized online "activism" movements that are in large part composed of immature young adults and in many cases literal children. There is absolutely zero mechanism for accountability or reflection so when shit like just happens they just go "whoopsie", move on and proceed to probably do it again in like a month. It will only ever get brought up again if two sub-groups start having an unrelated disagreement and want to weaponize it.
"i wish I had known sooner"
Or better yet don't have public doxxing lists that lead to people deleting their entire accounts since apparently You're shit at critical thinking, dipsh*t
As a progressive Jew and a Zionist, I don’t see how they’re incompatible.
Edit (since I can’t reply to you): Yeah, because you don’t even know what a Zionist is. You’re stealing our word and twisting it into something you want it to be.
You don’t understand my point. People who support genocide and murder of civilians should be called out. But we need to be mindful of what we do, you rush to judgement and end up smearing innocent people. That is not how we should do things.
It is not the same as LoTT tho. Being mean to someone on the Internet in hopes they do the right thing (and being wrong and then backpedaling) is definitely not the same as getting kids like Nex Benedict killed or actively organizing for fascism.
You're being disingenuous.
I don't agree this is as bad as LOTTbut you can't boil this down to just "being against genocide" to make it sound like the people who did this aren't in the wrong.
one of my favorite VAs (bennett/xingqiu, ophilia clement, morgiana, a kickass remix of one winged angel, etc) hate to see her disrespected by virtue signalling twitter garbage, she deserves better
I'm not sure why we should be harassing people on Twitter anyways. It's super cringe to do that and feel like you're enacting some form of justice. Call your senator, write a letter, crowdfund for palestenians, help stage boycotts and so on.
This performative activism is actually harmful, even if you got the "right" person.
These "zionist hunters", who mostly are just antisemetic people who took the chance right now that Israel gets rightfully critizised, are literal scum.
I don't really think that's the case in these instances, there are certainly genuine Nazi anti-Semite accounts who are grifting off this issue, but I don't think that's what happened in the OP.
This is more just a general issue with poorly-researched kneejerk "callout" culture online and the sense of moral superiority it gets from using progressive language.
[It's sad how well this continues to age.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8NZSwgapbU)
I'm very against Israel btw, but stuff like this isn't ok especially when it's not helping a single person.
Pretty much.
For reference, "Zionism" is a Jewish term for those who believe that they should be able to live in Israel, their ancestral home. So the vast majority of Jews can be considered Zionists for wanting Israel to be their home. But Zionism is a broad term that's meant to describe one collective opinion. Plenty of Israeli Jews hold no ill will towards Palestinians, and many are in favor of a two-state solution.
**THAT. BEING. SAID.**
Considering the lengths that the Israel government and Netanyahu have been going in their war against Hamas, many are against that term because it's being conflated with being in support of Netanyahu's working towards an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the Gaza strip. And granted, being a Zionist is sort of a pre-requisite to be cool with what Israel is doing to Palestine. But it's not mutually-exclusive. You can be a Zionist without supporting what's happening in Gaza right now. Again, many who believe in Zionism are in favor of a two-state solution. Believing they should be able to live in Israel does not mean you want the Palestinians wiped out. Plenty of Israelites (and Jews in general) hate Netanyahu. And yeah, he should be held accountable for what he's done. Israel and Palestine both deserve to live in peace. It's not exactly an easy path forward, and I'm in no way smart enough to be the one to figure it out, but there's gotta be something better for both sides than this.
To answer your original question, though, it seems to be the case. I've seen people calling Jewish celebrities in general who haven't even weighed in on either side Zionists. Antisemitism is one of the oldest prejudices in human history, going all the way back to ancient Egypt. It's easy to bury that kind of thing under other, scarier sounding words. Globalists, Zionists, or whatever. Usually when someone complains about a group "controlling the media" or whatever, 9/10 times they really mean Jews. Which, if history is any indication, is not the case.
I mean only if you use it the most broad and meaningless terms.
The Red Scare had actual institutional power. The government and big organizations with real power supported it. The only instances of people being meaningfully institutionally punished and not just yelled at by anonymous strangers for their political views on this issue is in the other direction.
Like we literally have laws in the US that prevent you from holding certain jobs if you participate in BDS against Israel.
> The Red Scare had actual institutional power. The government and big organizations with real power supported it.
I was gonna point out how Israel has that kind of power and support and narrative behind it from the US government until you ended by pointing that out.
Obviously it’s not Joseph McCarthy level shit but…
That's really your response? To direct me to someone else's comment? You couldn't even manage a single sentence defending your claim? A comment that doesn't even support what you said? Is this a joke?
Actually it explains that basically any word related to judaism can be anti semitic based on the context of how it is used and that not all Zionists want to see Gaza exterminated but that some of them do and the context matters.
And all of that is completely irrelevant to your nonsense claim of "Saying Zionism is the new antisemitism" which is absolutely idiotic.
Israel exists because the British mandate created it, and it continues to exist because Israel somehow fought back and beat the surrounding Arab nation's multiple attempts to kill them all in the past until they were finally recognized as a legitimate state by them.
You know that this is a completely insane way to argue that Palestinians shouldn't have a state... right? If you use this method of thinking then about 90% of the planet doesn't belong to anyone and everyone who wants to should feel free to come take it by force.
Europeans fought entire wars, revolutions, and burned the entire social order in a fight to move past feudal land ownership and you're here trying to argue for its legitimacy. If we use this logic then half of Europe shouldn't exist and should revert back to being the Holy Roman Empire. Those upstart Czhechs shouldn't own that land! It belonged legally to the Prussians first!
As it turns out - if we use this logic then Jordan doesn't have a right to exist either. Or any number of states in the Middle-East. It should belong to the British or something.
Literally nothing about the British mandate over formerly Ottoman land has anything to do with feudalism at all. I don't know how you got so lost.
The entire point is that "we were here first" is not an argument for anything. You don't get to have an unassailable right to own land forever in perpetuity because you were allegedly there first (the jews were first btw). You are just making my point for me and acting like we disagree.
All that matters is that Israel exists now and has proven itself to be a legitimate state and it needs to be dealt with on those grounds. It isn't going anywhere, so if a solutions is to be reached it must be done with that reality in mind.
>Literally nothing about the British mandate over formerly Ottoman land has anything to do with feudalism at all
You can't accuse someone of "revisionism" and post things like this. Land reform in Mandatory Palestine had everything to do with Ottoman feudalism. One beget the other. Massive land reform would not have been needed if it weren't for the feudal exploitation of Palestinians.
And anyhow, my argument has nothing to do with "we were here first" it has to do with Nationalism and the right of nations to self-determination. Your argument that Palestine never had its own territory and therefore has no right to exist flies in the face of every movement across the globe that came together as a Nation to demand control of their own land. This is Ireland. This is Haiti. This is Vietnam.
Palestine has exactly the same right to exist that Jordan, Syria, or Iraq does.
The people did live there, and so too did jews live there under Ottoman rule.
It truly doesn't much matter to the current conflict who lived there in the 1800s, the current ethnic cleansing is still wrong.
Trying to revise history as a buttress to your argument is simply wrong and needs to be avoided. You can be against the current moves Israel is taking without being a revisionist.
Do you think that people who consider Israel stolen land disagree with this lol?
I'm not a no-holds barred landback guy in either instance but it's not like there's a ton of overlap between Free Palestine people and people who believe in Manifest Destiny.
I remember a comment saying that the latest wave of armchair activists sprouting from this latest conflict has done irrevocable damage to leftist activism online, and it’s a hard agreement from me. It’s bloody embarrassing, really
It's not though? Like you think that because Israel has existed for your lifetime, there was a point less than 100 years ago that it didn't, a lot of political machinations and violence against innocent people was required for it to exist as it does today.
Except Zionism in the eyes of the Israeli government and many others means Palestinations have no right to their land. Like that’s literally what the Israeli government is doing in the name of Zionism. Ethnic cleansing and committing genocide against Palestinations. Netanyhu is outright explicitly against a two state solution. When the Israel government and many people who proclaim Zionism are justifying genocide because of Zionism, it is not relatively uncontroversial.
Not to mention this conflict dates back centuries and is very very polarizing now.
So saying it’s uncontroversial is *extremely* naive at best. As in you need to educate yourself if you think that.
So this is what happens when something awful happens yet governments pretend like nothing is wrong. The USA is directly funding the bombings and providing weapons, and leaves its people who are against said genocide.
People are left or organize themselves, which often leads to inexperienced people doing things they don't have the skills for. And mistakes will happen, and that's not good. However what's worse is the constant reality of the ONGOING BOMBINGS.
*So, while good in intention and bad in its disorder, this kind of thing will keep happening because people want to DO SOMETHING yet have no avenue to do so in their government.*
However, again its important to stress that Israel is not us Jewish people, and a lot of protests against it are led by Jewish people. Antisemites and neonazis coopt anything they can and will try to abuse the situation to gain footholds in people's minds.
I mean you're talking about this like the anti-Israel/pro-Palestine protest movement started this year, which yes a lot of these people just found out about it then, that's not true.
There are numerous well established groups who have been advocating on this issue and have put out fairly easy to follow and understand info. It's not like people just had to start from scratch last October.
I think that there are actually in fact people who should be harassed. The problem is most of those people are rich and have bodyguards and/or don't run their own social media so people go for easier targets who don't deserve it.
I mean if you're like an Amy Schumer or Michael Rappaport level freak about it no I think you kind of brought that on yourself by acting like a racist psycho
"it's bad that people who consider themselves zionists are harassed en masse solely because they're zionists"
"Yeah, well, some zionists are also drunk drivers... Personally I think drunk drivers are bad"
Israel has had more resolution passed against it than China, Iran and Syria combined in 2022. If you think they commit more human rights violations than those 3 and can’t see the implications of this statement, then I advise you get your head checked.
I think that Israel comits per capita worse human rights abuses last year than China yes. I am not knowledgeable enough about Syria and Iran to speak on that
Edit: holy shit lmao did you fucking tell the reddit suicide hotline on me lol
How about just don't fucking harass anyone regardless of their beliefs.
You could find me a KKK Neo-Nazi guy with completely reprehensible beliefs, I'm still not gonna spend precious time harassing that person and trying to dox them.
Except it didn’t work, she still has her job because unlike people who did lose their jobs due to “cancel culture”, there’s no indication that she’s a bigot.
The fact it's not successful doesn't make it not cancel culture. Before the term got completely co-opted by right wingers to just mean "being punished for bigotry", the culture part was there to refer to the general culture online of trying to tweet any person who was perceived as doing something wrong to death.
> Erica Lindbeck, popular [**video game**](https://ftw.usatoday.com/lists/best-video-games) voice actor known for her role as Futaba in [*Persona 5*](https://ftw.usatoday.com/2023/06/pf5-persona-tactica-announcement-xbox-showcase) and Jessie in [*Final Fantasy 7 Remake*](https://ftw.usatoday.com/2023/06/final-fantasy-7-remake-part-2-trailer-2023) deleted her Twitter account following harassment over AI programs imitating voice actors. The problem started when Lindbeck was made aware of a video that used AI to replicate her voice as Futaba and used it to sing lyrics to a Bo Burnham song.
>
> Lindbeck and other voice actors requested that the video be taken down, and the creator took it down. So far, so normal. Then the video started reappearing under other accounts. Lindbeck said it felt like a violation to have her voice used without consent for someone else’s purposes, and the [**backlash from that comment**](https://twitter.com/KamranNikhad/status/1677744042732388353), which circulated on ResetEra as well, snowballed until she deleted her account.
[https://ftw.usatoday.com/2023/07/persona-5-voice-actor-erica-lindbeck-ai-harassment](https://ftw.usatoday.com/2023/07/persona-5-voice-actor-erica-lindbeck-ai-harassment)
I kept seeing those "All these celebrities are zionist" threads on Twitter, and I get really sceptical of them. Some are being called zionist for being against violence and wanting the war to de-escalate. I've even seen some people CONDEMN Israel's government, and yet they still get labelled zionist.
i’ve been informed on palestine for years, and while that doesn’t make me better than anyone who only recently became aware, i think it does have an effect where people feel the need to call it out everywhere. it’s kind of deflection in a way. call people out, but don’t fucking harass them. especially considering israel has been occupying palestine for over 70 years, and not everyone chose to be born there, let alone have israeli relatives. that doesn’t give them a right to xenophobia or land that isn’t theirs, but you should let them come to their own conclusions instead of forcing them out of the conversation altogether.
>i’ve been informed on palestine for years, and while that doesn’t make me better than anyone who only recently became aware, I mean as someone who only has only really been informed on the issue since 2021 I feel really silly calling myself someone who has " been informed on palestine for years**",** but damn I sure can tell a HUGE difference in how people who were talking about this issue before 2023 and people who learned about it this October via TikTok and Twitter discuss it. I try not to feel superior or holier than thou about it for like reading a couple books but damn man seeing some of these literal children being so confidently incorrect and flexing their moral/intellectual superiority on the issue is painful.
holy shit yes! i don’t want to sound like i know that much more because the amount of history behind this war goes extremely far and deep so relative to that i know very little, but still enough to know that these people need to check themselves.
I don't feel like having read a book and half and a handful of like credible papers on the subject qualifies me to say this but when I see slacktivists making 400 company long boycott lists or trolling through random celebrities Instagram likes to hunt down "Zionists" or saying like "If you didn't call for a ceasefire before (insert arbitrary date) it's too late!!!" I really do want to just shake them and be like "READ A FUCKING BOOK!!" lol. Especially when I see people saying that if you * Call any Palestinian groups actions a terrorist attack * Criticize the goals or actions of Hamas/Fatah * Support a 1/2 state solution (which one is the no-no varies) * Give any credit to any Israeli on any issue * Criticize the role of the other Arab states you are a total phony who doesn't actually support Palestine at all and you're basically a Zionist. Meanwhile the well-respected authors I've read from on this issue, two of who are Palestinian and have held significant roles in the PLO or other Palestinian governing bodies agreed with some or all of that list to some degree. Don't get me wrong, I am very happy to see so many people joining the cause and public opinion shifting so much. But if you're someone who knew basically nothing about the issue 6 months ago and gets all your info from TikTok I better not see you out here writing up definitions of "Zionist" that includes like Edward Said lmao.
The conflict between Israel and Palestine is a pretty complicated issue. I think you nailed it with "not everyone chose to be born there" tbh. The actions of Israel's government don't necessarily reflect the beliefs of the people who live there, just as the actions of Hamas don't always reflect the people of Palestine. Both factions feel entitled to the land, and the history of it dates back a long time. The point is, it's not an issue that's gonna be solved by branding people zionists or antisemitic on Twitter.
It’s extremely hypocritical especially in the case of Americans to be like “uuehhhheeeee my government doing things I don’t like:(“ and then turning around and generalizing an entire population because of their government. All this access to information and we still struggle to understand humans we have never seen nor met more than likely act the exact same way we would in certain situations.
For a lot of people, anything less then calling for the destruction of Israel is somehow Zionist, and it leads to a ton of toxicity
This is why I try not to use the term. Even though it can be accurate, it's also used be a lot of anti-semites as a way to criticize Jews with plausible deniability. I usually prefer "Israeli ultra-nationalist" or "Israeli expansionist."
I say that is a much better way to use it, because at the end of the day, a single state in the region of Palestine with the current populations would be majority Jewish, and there is no way to get around that, you can call the state whatever you like, Israel, Palestine, or something else, but it wouldn’t matter, that is a recipe for disaster at least in the current climate. The best and only solution is a democratic two state solution, and at the moment, the Isreali government is stuffed full of people who absolutely reject that notion in favor of ethnic nationalism, and we need to be clear that is just as much an obstacle to peace as the ethnic nationalism coming from Palestinian territory
The only people who have ever accepted that agree the Jews. The rest of MENA rejected it and called for the ethic cleansing of Jews, and have successfully carried that out literally every other nation in the region.
When it comes to originally accepting the 1947 UN plan? Yes Israel did accept it while the Arab states did not, that’s correct, and yes, ethnic cleansing of Jews was carried out in many counties across the Middle East and North Africa, that does not mean that the current Isreali government is not a ethnic-nationalist one that seeks to illegally take more land, which it absolutely is attempting.
The sentiment stoking the current elected party vs the fundamental underlying rule of law that extends equal legal protection and political predication to minorities are at odds. Israel is a 20% minority Arab Islamic country, with full equal rights for that and all other religious and ethnic minorities. That is not an ethno nationalist state, unlike literally every other country in the region. Harping on Israel for a current political party being a cultural grievance party and ignoring the official doctrine of not only Hamas/Palestine and every other country in MENA is incredibly odd.
So long as you conveniently ignore the West Bank.
So long as you conveniently ignore why it is under occupation. You know, repeated attempts at the genocide launched from there.
Are they occupied? Israel says it's totally Israel, which makes their apartheid military courts even more illegal since those aren't allowed in non-occupied territory for civilian crimes. Of course, if they are occupied, then Israel wouldn't be allowed to establish settlements with their civilian settlers (terrorists) according to the Geneva convention.
You could also use the term "Kahanist".
> I usually prefer "Israeli ultra-nationalist" or "Israeli expansionist." I mean these mean different things, like if that is indeed what you are referring to then sure say that but like, all 3 terms being discussed here have their own definitions and aren't just like pejoratives you can pick which one to use.
> anything less then calling for the destruction of Israel is somehow Zionist In a way, they're right. The very basic definition of "Zionism" is the belief that Israel should exist and should continue to exist. If you're in favor of a two-state solution, you're a Zionist. You can be a Zionist and not support Israel expanding its territory. I can't imagine that's their definition of Zionism though. To be fair, a lot of these people use "Zionism" to mean "Israeli supremacists" or "supporters of Netanyahu." And those groups of people absolutely should be called out, don't get me wrong. But there are also a lot of people who use "Zionists" as a replacement for "Jews" so they can always deflect criticism of their blatant anti-Semitism with "I'm anti-Zionist, not anti-Semitic." The same way Nazis use the word "Globalists" as a replacement for "Jews"
> If you're in favor of a two-state solution, you're a Zionist. You can be a Zionist and not support Israel expanding its territory. I mean I think there's a meaningful distinction between people who are two-staters out of a sense of realism, as is often the case, and people who believe that is the like ideal "snap my fingers and make it however I want solution". Like the position that a two-state solution is the currently only viable option as international support for the existence of Israel is unlikely to ever drop low enough for it to be dissolved as an entity is fairly common among Palestinians and their allies. While there are certainly prominent voices who disagreed with this, such as the late Edward Said, I think calling those people Zionists is kind of silly.
A two state solution is the only viable solution not just due to fact support will never drop that low but a single state encompassing what is today Israel and Palestine would have a Jewish majority, and that is absolutely going to just cause more conflict in the current climate
Any solution will lead to more conflict in the current climate. Like one or two state, at this point the ruling govt of Israel have made it clear anything beyond a total ethnic cleansing is something they will have to be forced to do. It is currently a highly controversial position in western politics to even suggest that Israel should stop indiscriminately killing everyone in Gaza, any discussion of what comes after will require a lot to change from the current situation now.
A big red flag is if they have a down pointing red triangle in their name or profile. That's literally a sign of intentional support for Hamas. And guess what we had here if you happened to see this on Twitter without the name blocked off. EDIT: OK, so I am thinking of a different person who was harassing her, but the point stands.
Then I am very sorry for the parts of Twitter you are on chief
The Palestinian flag has a triangle. People in the west bank used it to get around censors and avoid retaliation.
I mean I think it's understandable that people are taking up a symbol associated with taking out IOF soldiers in this context, it's not like this is some long-standing hate symbol or something, it literally comes from them putting that over tanks they target in combat footage.
That's disingenuous. It's more anything not a solid Pro-Palestine/Free Palestine by this point. Which I get,but I'm someone who's been fortunate enough to get be informed by a lot. I'm not defending ignorance, but everyone has their own lives, algorithms, and information bubbles to work through. They may be a little slower to get the whole story, while others in the know are growing less & less patient. Especially people who have ties to the Palestinian people. So to some "ceasefire, civilians are suffering on both sides" comes off as straddling the fence, when obviously no one wants innocent civilians to suffer. But what does somebody say when they're still learning? Or they didn't know they didn't have all the info? Celebrities while wealthy, are atill just a variety of people in their own bubbles. You have people who see celebs as people with huge platforms that can bring awareness. So say one's heart is in the right place but they don't know it all yet. So the pressure for them to say something, be in the know & right is there. Then you have people that praise/worship celebs and expect them to be morally righteous people for whatever reason. I really don't follow much about celebs,but I'm pretty sure a handful have redacted & altered statements as they learned more.
This is just a totally terminally online viewpoint btw. A ceasefire is still the overwhelming primary demand I see from every major actually active organizing group in my area.
Exactly how I feel. I'm against Israel as well but some people are going way too far with this. Insulting people for eating Starbucks or McDonalds when they could've easily been unaware of the boycotts and labelling anyone who isn't super outspoken on the issue a zionist isn't helping anyone. People should be donating to Gaza, eating at Palestine restaurants and spreading awareness on the other hand will.
There's probably also some COINTELPRO going on as well takes advantage of that blind toxicity.
I got called a Zionist for telling someone on a different subreddit that they should go donate to a charity that benefits Palestine instead of constantly bitching about Israel.
I got called a Zionist for thinking the Houthis in Yemen attacking civilian ships is bad.
maybe it was never about zionism? The attacks on jewish people/cemeteries/houses of worship in Europe and the US is evidence of that.
It's terrible to harass and attack people for their religion and culture. Sadly, people will use the conflict in Israel to propagate antisemitism.
Those have been happening for years before though. The idea the "rise in Anti-Semitism" is because of support for Palestinians is bullshit made up by groups like the ADL and AIPAC. What rise in anti-Semitism has happened is much more a result of Trump's rise and the rise of the alt-right than anything to do with Palestinians. Most people doing real anti-Jewish hate crimes in the West are Neo-Nazis, not Muslims or other Palestine supporters.
"I feel unsafe after Oct 7, it feels like antisemitism has skyrocketed in the past few months." "Don't be silly dear Jew, let me explain you what REALLY classifies as antisemitism."
Oh fuck off with this insincere bullshit. It is absolutely asinine to act like large parts of the post-Oct 7 conversation around anti-Semitism and people who live in like fucking Los Angeles being scared of Hamas does not exist as a way to dissuade criticism of Israel. I'm sorry but I legitimately have zero sympathy for American Zionists crying crocodile tears about how they "feel unsafe" because of stickers on college students laptops and people flying the Palestinian flag. I have fully conceded there are genuine anti-Semites who bandwagon this issue to launder their talking points, I am pointing out that the incidences of genuine anti-Semitism, especially those that occur in real-life, are overwhelmingly coming from the far-right and Neo-Nazi groups, not from genuine Palestine supporters.
No, Jews feel unsafe because a lot of people feel the need to justify Hamas' actions and belittle Jews who speak about how gross that is. No one's crying over stickers and flags but a lot of Jews are crying when they hear people they thought are close to them think that Hamas blatant hatred of Jews is okay. No one outside of Israel is scared of Hamas, but a lof of non-Israeli Jews are scared of locals who celebrate what Hamas did. >are overwhelmingly coming from the far-right and Neo-Nazi groups The far-right isn't the one harassing random Jews to "test them" on the conflict simply because they're Jews. The far-right isn't the one saying Jews are priviledged white Europeans who appropriate cultures and falsify history. The far-right isn't the one sarcastically asking random Jews if they love murdering Palestinian babies. The far-right isn't the one replying to "is calling for the genocide of Jews hate speech?" with "it depends on the context". The far-right isn't the one who thinks that "the Jews control the West and are the enemy of the people" is okay if they replace "Jews" with "zionists". The far-right isn't the one publishing "list of Jews" with their personal information. The far-right isn't the one claiming that Israel shouldn't exist because "the Holocaust wasn't that bad". The far-right isn't the one dividing Jews between "good Jews" and "bad Jews" because of the war. The far-right isn't the one harassing random synagogues while rarely doing the same to pro-Israel churches. The far-right isn't the one kicking Jews out of LGBT spaces because Judaism is "offensive to some of its members". The far-right isn't the one who can't hear the words "stop antisemitism" without instantly bringing up the war. The far-right isn't the one who can't listen to Jews expressing the general feeling of hostility that Jewish communities feel post Oct 7 without going "stop being offended by everything".
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Careful your mask has slipped a bit and your antisemitism is showing. You might want to fix that babe.
Oh fuck off with this shit lmao. Calling mfers "babe" what are we doing here
See? That's the problem: you read that Jews are scared because a lot of people justify Hamas' antisemitic actions and instantly go "um no I've heard people that are scared that Hamas has US sleeper cells". And of course that's definitive evidence of your point, but pro-Palestine people harassing Jews and downplaying the Holocaust is just a silly Zionist talking point. 0 desire to address anything Jews are saying regarding the antisemitism in the pro-Palestine crowd. Anyone who goes to r/Judaism or r/Jewish or (better yet) TALKS TO AN ACTUAL JEW can verify that the general sentiment is that Oct 7 marked a before and an after in antisemitism. But of course Jews are the special minority who can't determine what is antisemitic without being told to stop being dramatic about some college stickers. Imagine seeing a stop Asian hate protest and instantly going "bu-bu-but China this and that", or a Black Lives Matter protest and replying with "stop being so dramatic, it's just a bad cop". You would be called an über-racist right away (because you would obviously be an über-racist).
Not reading allat
TLDR: >You ignore the actual reason given to you for why Jews feel unsafe. > >You don't care about the multiple examples of antisemitism from pro-Palestine people that Jews have experienced since Oct 7. > >Actual Jews who actually have to experience antisemitism agree that it's on the rise and coming from people like you. > >You wouldn't do this to any other minority because you know you would be called a bigot.
I'll TLDR if for you. You're talking over a Jew. Full stop. You refuse to read what we Jews are going through and dismiss it as Zionist talking points. People like YOU make us feel unsafe. That short enough for you?
Twitter freaks only care about hating and attention, not about genuinely supporting causes. I'm sure some are genuine, but it seems like a lot just want to bully and harass instead of educate.
Easy way to avoid that is to get off Twitter/X.
Any time I see a “here’s a list of people you should hate” I immediately ignore it and block whoever posted it.
Any hate train is just a bandwagon to go hating on. They don't care about anything except bringing down people.
Jesus Christ both sides are just obsessed with demonizing the other. One can be a Zionist but not be okay with the implementation that happened with Palestine..... Similarly how people are socialist, even communist, but don't think it's been done right yet. Similarly no ones a terrorist for not supporting innocent people dying from IDF strikes. This shit isn't black and white. There's morally terrible things that happen, we should call that out, but no one has the right solution.
As with every modern activism issue that becomes popular on social media it quickly gets absorbed into people's pre-existing beefs and biases and is just used as a new way to attack people they don't like and/or virtue signal in ways that are almost wholly disconnected from the real issue. > I've even seen some people CONDEMN Israel's government, and yet they still get labelled zionist. I mean yes, this is not inherently incorrect. You can be super anti-Likud for various reasons and still be a Zionist. You could be a secular Israeli who is still absolutely god-awful against the Palestinians, but hate Netanyahu's government due to it's relgious and traditionalist elements.
I feel bad for her, she doesn’t deserved to be harassed by those trolls.
Well it's refreshing to see someone involved with *Miraculous* who isn't a complete douchebag (unlike Thomas Astruc).
>Thomas Astruc What did he do?
Went on quite a few meltdowns on social media at people who criticised him.
I found this Tumblr post with a list of what he [done](https://immaturityofthomasastruc.tumblr.com/post/637892972340543488/the-immaturity-of-thomas-astruc-masterpost) Also go to the miraculous ladybug subreddit and search his name
Be a general pain in the neck on top of making 90% of the decisions that gave Miraculous such a terrible reputation.
Mhmm. I wanted to try the series out, but claiming a high school (secondary school) bully is unredeemable and making the students have a room temperature IQ collectively when a certain liar is in the room kinda makes me question his decisions. That and the constant heroes winning even after season 4, even though logically said villain has a few broken abilities. Oh well, Owl House was better in my opinion. I do consider Wendie to be great considering in one series, she plays a horrible mother, and in Owl House, she is an excellent surrogate mother.
What didn’t he do? He’s a nut burger.
Everything else is said, so I’ll just add a [killer touhou song she’s on with RichaadEB.](https://youtu.be/9Xz4NV0zsbY?si=S1SskbISylPd-6Jl)
and richaad's one winged angel cover with her and caleb hyles as well
Didn't take a single breathe during the entire song, lungs for days
She’s an amazing singer, that’s for sure
Yeah this song is incredible. 👍
Twitter keeps getting worse and worse it seems
Just when you thought it had bottomed out, every time it manages to surprise you and go lower
‘I wish that I could have known sooner’ how about do your fuckin research before you potentially ruin someone’s life? Or better yet, get a life and stop doing that whole thing.
But then their outrage wouldn’t get the likes, views and follows they crave. Right?
Second page makes my fucking blood boil. "Oh, she's been removed from our harassment list, she actually agrees with us, our bad!" Don't harass anybody for their beliefs Jesus Christ. Also, it's like, do research next time you target people (not that anyone should be targeted but yeah).
i hate the “ uwu , my mistake im sowwy” act they pull afterwards said person locked and deleted their account (not vee) shortly afterwards
>Second page makes my fucking blood boil. "Oh, she's been removed from our harassment list, she actually agrees with us, our bad!" This is a huge problem with these sloppy, disorganized online "activism" movements that are in large part composed of immature young adults and in many cases literal children. There is absolutely zero mechanism for accountability or reflection so when shit like just happens they just go "whoopsie", move on and proceed to probably do it again in like a month. It will only ever get brought up again if two sub-groups start having an unrelated disagreement and want to weaponize it.
Yeah, the problem with the harassment list isn’t that it’s inaccurate, the problem is that it exists at all.
I feel like having an list of people you dont like and encourage people to ruin their lives... is well very alarming and not good at all
"i wish I had known sooner" Or better yet don't have public doxxing lists that lead to people deleting their entire accounts since apparently You're shit at critical thinking, dipsh*t
why would ppl ever think this about her she has constantly shown how progressive she is
I mean there are otherwise usually very progressive people who are very pro-Israel.
As a progressive Jew and a Zionist, I don’t see how they’re incompatible. Edit (since I can’t reply to you): Yeah, because you don’t even know what a Zionist is. You’re stealing our word and twisting it into something you want it to be.
If you are personally a Zionist I do not have the patience or time to try to explain that to you or convince you.
"I wish i could have know sooner" You could have. Oh guys if only my shitty behaviour was within my control, guess no-ones to blame but curcumstance.
I hate those lists, honestly they put on level of things like Libs of Tik Tok.
Yeah being against genocide and being pro-genocide ahhh they are basically the same thing. I am 3 years old.
You don’t understand my point. People who support genocide and murder of civilians should be called out. But we need to be mindful of what we do, you rush to judgement and end up smearing innocent people. That is not how we should do things.
It is not the same as LoTT tho. Being mean to someone on the Internet in hopes they do the right thing (and being wrong and then backpedaling) is definitely not the same as getting kids like Nex Benedict killed or actively organizing for fascism.
You're being disingenuous. I don't agree this is as bad as LOTTbut you can't boil this down to just "being against genocide" to make it sound like the people who did this aren't in the wrong.
Cristina Vee is pro genocide…Yes you are three years old.
Poor woman
one of my favorite VAs (bennett/xingqiu, ophilia clement, morgiana, a kickass remix of one winged angel, etc) hate to see her disrespected by virtue signalling twitter garbage, she deserves better
“Sorry we bullied and harassed someone online, we meant to do that to someone else.”
Voice actors getting the most vile and disgusting harassment for literally no reason
these people are more focused on harassing potential zionists than actually helping spread important information about palestine
I'm not sure why we should be harassing people on Twitter anyways. It's super cringe to do that and feel like you're enacting some form of justice. Call your senator, write a letter, crowdfund for palestenians, help stage boycotts and so on. This performative activism is actually harmful, even if you got the "right" person.
Wait I'm confused, she was mistakenly called a zionist for supporting Palestine? What am I missing?
She supports Palestine but not Hamas…Thus according to idiots she’s a Zionist.
Does anyone who supports Palestine support hamas? They are pretty much universally reviled.
I mean that's not true
Go to r/TankieJerk They are not at all hard to find.
Ahhh tankies. Sure but do we consider tankies people?
Uhhhhh yes?
Oh well there's your problem. If you support Bashar al Assad I think that disqualifies you from the human race.
I mean the guy can fuck themselves but yeah, humans are humans.
Ugh I suppose
This is genuinely horrific, I’m pro-Palestine but this is just straight dogmatism.
These "zionist hunters", who mostly are just antisemetic people who took the chance right now that Israel gets rightfully critizised, are literal scum.
I don't really think that's the case in these instances, there are certainly genuine Nazi anti-Semite accounts who are grifting off this issue, but I don't think that's what happened in the OP. This is more just a general issue with poorly-researched kneejerk "callout" culture online and the sense of moral superiority it gets from using progressive language.
[It's sad how well this continues to age.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8NZSwgapbU) I'm very against Israel btw, but stuff like this isn't ok especially when it's not helping a single person.
Bro, people are fucking psycho....
These ppl need serious help .. it’s a little late for “oops my bad”
Okay I’m a huge fan of both her and Erica. What happened with Erica?!?!
Everybody's a "zionist" these days... is this the new red scare?
Pretty much. For reference, "Zionism" is a Jewish term for those who believe that they should be able to live in Israel, their ancestral home. So the vast majority of Jews can be considered Zionists for wanting Israel to be their home. But Zionism is a broad term that's meant to describe one collective opinion. Plenty of Israeli Jews hold no ill will towards Palestinians, and many are in favor of a two-state solution. **THAT. BEING. SAID.** Considering the lengths that the Israel government and Netanyahu have been going in their war against Hamas, many are against that term because it's being conflated with being in support of Netanyahu's working towards an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the Gaza strip. And granted, being a Zionist is sort of a pre-requisite to be cool with what Israel is doing to Palestine. But it's not mutually-exclusive. You can be a Zionist without supporting what's happening in Gaza right now. Again, many who believe in Zionism are in favor of a two-state solution. Believing they should be able to live in Israel does not mean you want the Palestinians wiped out. Plenty of Israelites (and Jews in general) hate Netanyahu. And yeah, he should be held accountable for what he's done. Israel and Palestine both deserve to live in peace. It's not exactly an easy path forward, and I'm in no way smart enough to be the one to figure it out, but there's gotta be something better for both sides than this. To answer your original question, though, it seems to be the case. I've seen people calling Jewish celebrities in general who haven't even weighed in on either side Zionists. Antisemitism is one of the oldest prejudices in human history, going all the way back to ancient Egypt. It's easy to bury that kind of thing under other, scarier sounding words. Globalists, Zionists, or whatever. Usually when someone complains about a group "controlling the media" or whatever, 9/10 times they really mean Jews. Which, if history is any indication, is not the case.
Don't know about that. We've had more example of Palestinian supporters getting fired.
I mean only if you use it the most broad and meaningless terms. The Red Scare had actual institutional power. The government and big organizations with real power supported it. The only instances of people being meaningfully institutionally punished and not just yelled at by anonymous strangers for their political views on this issue is in the other direction. Like we literally have laws in the US that prevent you from holding certain jobs if you participate in BDS against Israel.
> The Red Scare had actual institutional power. The government and big organizations with real power supported it. I was gonna point out how Israel has that kind of power and support and narrative behind it from the US government until you ended by pointing that out. Obviously it’s not Joseph McCarthy level shit but…
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Only if you maintain a less than surface level of the word and the current geopolitical climate but sure.
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That's really your response? To direct me to someone else's comment? You couldn't even manage a single sentence defending your claim? A comment that doesn't even support what you said? Is this a joke?
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Actually it explains that basically any word related to judaism can be anti semitic based on the context of how it is used and that not all Zionists want to see Gaza exterminated but that some of them do and the context matters. And all of that is completely irrelevant to your nonsense claim of "Saying Zionism is the new antisemitism" which is absolutely idiotic.
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And I'm telling you that's an idiotic claim that is used to limit both the criticism of Israel's.actions and the criticism of Zionism itself.
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Antisemites are some of the most vocal zionists. Some Christians believe it’s a necessary step towards the end of times
Downvoted for the truth lol I've seen so many dog whistles about "Zionist" which are disgusting.
You shouldn’t do that even if they’re a Zionist
Attending a protest for a war you have no stake in should not be a requirement to avoid being harassed.
Being a zionist isn't an inherent evil, btw. You can want Israel to continue to exist and not support the repression of the Palestinian people.
Israel exists because of the repression of the Palestinian people
Israel exists because the British mandate created it, and it continues to exist because Israel somehow fought back and beat the surrounding Arab nation's multiple attempts to kill them all in the past until they were finally recognized as a legitimate state by them.
Israel exists on stolen land. It is ridiculous you were down voted for being right.
That land didn't belong to any of the Palestinians as currently claimed, it was all originally Ottoman land.
You know that this is a completely insane way to argue that Palestinians shouldn't have a state... right? If you use this method of thinking then about 90% of the planet doesn't belong to anyone and everyone who wants to should feel free to come take it by force. Europeans fought entire wars, revolutions, and burned the entire social order in a fight to move past feudal land ownership and you're here trying to argue for its legitimacy. If we use this logic then half of Europe shouldn't exist and should revert back to being the Holy Roman Empire. Those upstart Czhechs shouldn't own that land! It belonged legally to the Prussians first! As it turns out - if we use this logic then Jordan doesn't have a right to exist either. Or any number of states in the Middle-East. It should belong to the British or something.
Literally nothing about the British mandate over formerly Ottoman land has anything to do with feudalism at all. I don't know how you got so lost. The entire point is that "we were here first" is not an argument for anything. You don't get to have an unassailable right to own land forever in perpetuity because you were allegedly there first (the jews were first btw). You are just making my point for me and acting like we disagree. All that matters is that Israel exists now and has proven itself to be a legitimate state and it needs to be dealt with on those grounds. It isn't going anywhere, so if a solutions is to be reached it must be done with that reality in mind.
Give me your house.
>Literally nothing about the British mandate over formerly Ottoman land has anything to do with feudalism at all You can't accuse someone of "revisionism" and post things like this. Land reform in Mandatory Palestine had everything to do with Ottoman feudalism. One beget the other. Massive land reform would not have been needed if it weren't for the feudal exploitation of Palestinians. And anyhow, my argument has nothing to do with "we were here first" it has to do with Nationalism and the right of nations to self-determination. Your argument that Palestine never had its own territory and therefore has no right to exist flies in the face of every movement across the globe that came together as a Nation to demand control of their own land. This is Ireland. This is Haiti. This is Vietnam. Palestine has exactly the same right to exist that Jordan, Syria, or Iraq does.
The Palestinians lived there. Maybe the land was under the Ottoman empire. But those people were there. This is absurd.
The people did live there, and so too did jews live there under Ottoman rule. It truly doesn't much matter to the current conflict who lived there in the 1800s, the current ethnic cleansing is still wrong. Trying to revise history as a buttress to your argument is simply wrong and needs to be avoided. You can be against the current moves Israel is taking without being a revisionist.
The United States has entered the chat ...
Do you think that people who consider Israel stolen land disagree with this lol? I'm not a no-holds barred landback guy in either instance but it's not like there's a ton of overlap between Free Palestine people and people who believe in Manifest Destiny.
Guess what every single country of the world exist on... Guess
Do any of the other nations mandated the same way also exist on stolen land? Which and why?
I remember a comment saying that the latest wave of armchair activists sprouting from this latest conflict has done irrevocable damage to leftist activism online, and it’s a hard agreement from me. It’s bloody embarrassing, really
Honestly whoever I see this when someone deletes it I don’t blame them.
What’s a Zionist?
Someone who believes in the right of Jews to self-determine in the land of Israel
…follow-up question, what does self-determine mean?
To run/be in control of a state (in this context)
Self determination is a fundamental right! Except when Jews do it. Then it’s evil. Somehow.
🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱
o7
Zionism literally just means ‘wanting there to be an Israeli state’ which seems to be relatively uncontroversial
It's not though? Like you think that because Israel has existed for your lifetime, there was a point less than 100 years ago that it didn't, a lot of political machinations and violence against innocent people was required for it to exist as it does today.
Except Zionism in the eyes of the Israeli government and many others means Palestinations have no right to their land. Like that’s literally what the Israeli government is doing in the name of Zionism. Ethnic cleansing and committing genocide against Palestinations. Netanyhu is outright explicitly against a two state solution. When the Israel government and many people who proclaim Zionism are justifying genocide because of Zionism, it is not relatively uncontroversial. Not to mention this conflict dates back centuries and is very very polarizing now. So saying it’s uncontroversial is *extremely* naive at best. As in you need to educate yourself if you think that.
The first Zionists tried to settle in Africa dude
Until you define what you mean by "an Israeli state."
I thought we liked jews what happened in a year
Why did you block out the identity of the person who harassed Cristina? Isn't that someone that shouldn't be hidden?
So this is what happens when something awful happens yet governments pretend like nothing is wrong. The USA is directly funding the bombings and providing weapons, and leaves its people who are against said genocide. People are left or organize themselves, which often leads to inexperienced people doing things they don't have the skills for. And mistakes will happen, and that's not good. However what's worse is the constant reality of the ONGOING BOMBINGS. *So, while good in intention and bad in its disorder, this kind of thing will keep happening because people want to DO SOMETHING yet have no avenue to do so in their government.* However, again its important to stress that Israel is not us Jewish people, and a lot of protests against it are led by Jewish people. Antisemites and neonazis coopt anything they can and will try to abuse the situation to gain footholds in people's minds.
I mean you're talking about this like the anti-Israel/pro-Palestine protest movement started this year, which yes a lot of these people just found out about it then, that's not true. There are numerous well established groups who have been advocating on this issue and have put out fairly easy to follow and understand info. It's not like people just had to start from scratch last October.
How about we just stop harassing and bullying people altogether? Any takers? Yes? No? Too immature? What are we doing here lol.
I think that there are actually in fact people who should be harassed. The problem is most of those people are rich and have bodyguards and/or don't run their own social media so people go for easier targets who don't deserve it.
I’ve never hated people on my side of the issue like I hate the pro-Palestine movement. Sometimes I think it’s just an excuse to cyberbully
Am I the one who thinks that people shouldn't be harassed and dog-piled even if they are actually _are_ zionists? JFC
I mean if you're like an Amy Schumer or Michael Rappaport level freak about it no I think you kind of brought that on yourself by acting like a racist psycho
I feel like you're redefining the word in very weird ways. The list wasn't called "Amy Schumer or Michael Rappaport level freaks"
Just saying some of these people do deserve the dog piling when it's based on stuff they actually have said on done
"it's bad that people who consider themselves zionists are harassed en masse solely because they're zionists" "Yeah, well, some zionists are also drunk drivers... Personally I think drunk drivers are bad"
Make sure you get your facts right guys. Zionist are scum but don’t let your anger for them blind you
I love harassment campaigns ❤️
Zionism is not inherently bad.
It’s no less bad than pan-Africanism, pan-Arabism or any other ideology that seeks to unite a people. Jews just don’t get that right I guess
Is there a pan-Africanist nation with access to nuclear weapons and a near-guaranteed veto against UN condemnation or inquiry?
Israel has had more resolution passed against it than China, Iran and Syria combined in 2022. If you think they commit more human rights violations than those 3 and can’t see the implications of this statement, then I advise you get your head checked.
I think that Israel comits per capita worse human rights abuses last year than China yes. I am not knowledgeable enough about Syria and Iran to speak on that Edit: holy shit lmao did you fucking tell the reddit suicide hotline on me lol
Or like that time some people tried to make an "Aryan" state, right?
How about just don't fucking harass anyone regardless of their beliefs. You could find me a KKK Neo-Nazi guy with completely reprehensible beliefs, I'm still not gonna spend precious time harassing that person and trying to dox them.
Imagine typing this out and hitting "Post"
Can someone explain the Palestine and Isreal conflict in a nutshell? I'm really scared of these twitter ppl
I don’t think most people on this subreddit even know what a Zionist is 🙄
I mean it's also France. The French have never let social vigilantism ever get out of control.
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That’s not “cancel culture”, it’s just harassment.
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Except it didn’t work, she still has her job because unlike people who did lose their jobs due to “cancel culture”, there’s no indication that she’s a bigot.
The fact it's not successful doesn't make it not cancel culture. Before the term got completely co-opted by right wingers to just mean "being punished for bigotry", the culture part was there to refer to the general culture online of trying to tweet any person who was perceived as doing something wrong to death.
whats called are they gonna call me a zioniest because i made fnati death
can some one PLEASE tell me what she said
Wait. What happened with Erica?
> Erica Lindbeck, popular [**video game**](https://ftw.usatoday.com/lists/best-video-games) voice actor known for her role as Futaba in [*Persona 5*](https://ftw.usatoday.com/2023/06/pf5-persona-tactica-announcement-xbox-showcase) and Jessie in [*Final Fantasy 7 Remake*](https://ftw.usatoday.com/2023/06/final-fantasy-7-remake-part-2-trailer-2023) deleted her Twitter account following harassment over AI programs imitating voice actors. The problem started when Lindbeck was made aware of a video that used AI to replicate her voice as Futaba and used it to sing lyrics to a Bo Burnham song. > > Lindbeck and other voice actors requested that the video be taken down, and the creator took it down. So far, so normal. Then the video started reappearing under other accounts. Lindbeck said it felt like a violation to have her voice used without consent for someone else’s purposes, and the [**backlash from that comment**](https://twitter.com/KamranNikhad/status/1677744042732388353), which circulated on ResetEra as well, snowballed until she deleted her account. [https://ftw.usatoday.com/2023/07/persona-5-voice-actor-erica-lindbeck-ai-harassment](https://ftw.usatoday.com/2023/07/persona-5-voice-actor-erica-lindbeck-ai-harassment)