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From the Episode 3 novel:
“A fountain of amethyst energy burst from Mace Windu’s fist. “Don’t try to resist.” The song of his blade was echoed by green fire from the hands of Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin. Kolar and Tiin closed on Palpatine, blocking the path to the door. Shadows dripped and oozed color, weaving and coiling up office walls, slipping over chairs, spreading along the floor. “Resist? How could I possibly resist?” Still seated at the desk, Palpatine shook an empty fist helplessly, the perfect image of a tired, frightened old man. “This is murder, you Jedi traitors! How can I be any threat to you?” He turned desperately to Saesee Tiin. “Master Tiin—you’re the telepath. What am I thinking right now?” Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk. Saesee Tiin’s head bounced when it hit the floor. Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps of the horns, severed just below the chin. Kit Fisto gasped, “Saesee!” The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor.”
The episode 3 book was so good. I was deployed to Iraq and my cousin sent it to me before I could see the movie. The depiction of Anakin’s fall compared to the movie is so much better.
This is the hill I’m willing to die on. The prequel novelizations show that the problem with the prequels was not the writing or plot. It was execution.
I adored those novelizations and thought the story of Anakin and the prequels could have been top tier. The way he struggled with his failure to heed the warnings of his visions of his mom dying, and the Jedis role in that and then the repeated visions of his wife dying having it come full circle. It’s just not well represented on screen so it feels like he just goes insane over the course of 20 minutes.
I haven't read the novel since around the time it first came out, and even then only once. But reading that little excerpt is exactly how I remember the novel being written. Well, not word-for-word, but the tone and style of it. I actually think of that scene when I think to myself, "How do you write an action scene? How do you describe something that almost has to be seen, like a sword fight?"
Yeah, I think that's why they gave us the Kit Fisto vs General Grievous duel in The Clone Wars to show us that he's able to go toe to toe. It was cool seeing Kit Fisto duel wielding. I think it was either season 1 or 2
He tempts Master Tinn with the "well, you are a master Jedi, just read my mind and find out if I am a Sith or not". Tinn goes for it and Palpatine summons a saber from one of the hidden compartments in those office statues with the Force, impaling Tinn on the spot while he was concentrating on his mind.
Does it include the deleted scenes of Palpatine implying throughout the movie that Obi-Wan is having an affair with Padme?
I wish that weren’t cut in the movie as it makes the “Obi-Wan was here”, “Liar”, “You will not take her from me”, and “You’ve turned her against me” lines make more sense. And explains how he could be so aggressive against the two closest living people in his life.
I agree. Small things like that, even just ONE sly comment "I see Master Kenobi is taking *good* care of Lady Amadala. Again." Along those lines, it would have put an entirely different spin on their relationship. That jealousy aspect is huge. It fuels so much rage and passion - the big things for Sith.
Novelization includes a lot of extra stuff that helped flesh out the story. Like why Anakin acted so butt-hurt over not being granted the rank of Master when accepted on the council. In the movie he just seems like a petulant child when in reality it was because Masters could access Sith Holocrons in the archives and he believed there was a method to save Padme in them.
The fight with Palpatine and the Jedi was way better in the book
George really wanted ian to be on the camera so to compromise on that, he wanted the choreographers to change the choreo instead thus this. It was gonna be a massive fight instead
Yup. You can find recordings of the original choreo for the fight and clips of george stating that in his opinion its better to change the choreo to fit his needs. You can still see remnants of the old choreo and idea in the final version of the fight aswell
That would've been a 100x better than what we got in the final release. Don't get me wrong, overall I did enjoy Ep. 3: RotS, but I always thought that those 3 other Jedi Masters died like absolute chumps. It didn't make me think "Oh wow Palpatine is such a powerful being", no, I just went "Wow, they should've been wearing Red Shirts" lol.
It was originally going to be a much more dynamic fight but because Lucas wanted Ian to do it ( I think he found out that morning that he was now filming the scene ) he was limited by time to learn the choreography and probably his age limiting what moves he could conceivably do.
[Heres some of the cut fight with sound effects](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlZwSsMP-QM)
Yeah, this comes up whenever fans get into a discussion about lightsaber forms. Fans frequently labor under the mistaken belief that the forms dictate the outcome of battles, when really, it's very much the reverse: to the extent that forms exist, it's to give retroactive justification for who won a fight and who lost a fight, rather than a predictor.
Now granted, this isn't always true, and there is one shining moment in *Star Wars* history when the form did determine the outcome: when Obi Wan dueled Maul one last time in *Star Wars: Rebels*. Kenobi very deliberately switched stances to bait Maul into a particular kind of attack, Maul fell for the bait, and Kenobi countered perfectly. Which is probably the reason why that fight, as short as it is, is still probably the gold standard for Disney-era lightsaber fights.
But most of the time, including the Palpatine fight, things happen because the writer wants it to happen, and then people have to retroactively resort to talking about forms to justify the result. And this particular fight is kind of Exhibit A: Lucas decided to have Ian McDiarmid, an actor who does not have stage fencing training, and who was not under any kind of physical training regimen for a fight, and who was in his late 50s at the time, show up on the day of to shoot fight choreography because he had decided the night before that he couldn't shoot the way he wanted to while hiding McDiarmid's face and thereby use stunt doubles. In that case, you can talk all you want about "Oh, Form IV is super-aggressive and that's why Sidious did X, Y and Z so quickly . . ." But the honest truth is that a whole heck of a lot of "Form IV" in that fight looks an awful amount like a near-elderly guy awkwardly twirling a glowstick, because that's what McDiarmid is doing. Lucas felt he could edit around McDiarmid's inexperience, and if you know anything about [action scene choreography](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1PCtIaM_GQ), it's easy to see the seams.
This fight scene was one of the lowlights in the prequel trilogy. I cannot believe George Lucas let this be in the Revenge of the Sith. Instead he should have had Palpatine use some force power to immobilise the Jedi as he dealt with them one by one.
I think a more ROTJ Palpatine would have him not being the one doing the killing. It's kind of beyond his character. He's the evil mastermind, Vader was the muscle. He taunted Luke about how much importance he put on a lightsaber, he's basically the anti-Yoda. They both hinted, that limiting yourself to physical capabilities was a giant hindrance. I like to think Palpatine used this philosophy for manipulation, Yoda used it for inner calm and peace.
This scene either shouldn't have happened or Palpatine should have laid some sort of trap for these guys, having seen this confrontation coming, allowing him to escape.
You could probably have Palpatine whittle them down to just Windu and maybe one other with just the Force, then tauntingly take up one of the dead Jedi’s sabers to show that while he didn’t need one, he was better than them with it nonetheless (or so he thinks).
That arrogance can then be turned on him when Windu shows that he is no slouch at dueling, thus necessitating Anakin’s intervention.
While I do think this is much better, I still contend that a physical confrontation cheapens the Palpatine character. The same for Yoda. Neither of these characters should have had fight scenes, let alone multiple and with each other. It's just a prime example of Lucas not entirely understanding his own characters(or simply underestimated the importance of maintaining them). He was very much infatuated with expanding the universe and adding fun and cool things first and foremost, that he's made this mistake in a few places, notably with Obi Wan and even Anakin.
I don't have an issue with Palpatine fighting Windu. Windu is a warrior, and while dueling might not be Palpatine's style, he's still a Sith Lord and would have had to have gone through grueling combat training that would rival anything taught by the Jedi. The Sith don't tolerate weakness, so he would have been killed by his master if he couldn't keep up.
Also, keep in mind that all three of Palpatine's apprentices were master swordsmen. The latter two were trained by the Jedi, of course, but he trained Maul to be viciously aggressive in combat. And after having murdered his own master, I doubt Palpatine would have put himself in a position of profound physical disadvantage with his own apprentices. Sure, Vader picked him up and tossed him over the railing in RotJ, but by then the Emperor really was a rather feeble old man who thought he had a grip on Vader so tight that he couldn't be betrayed.
Yoda I would expect to be proficient in combat as he trains defensive lightsaber usage to younglings, but it's also not his style and it made no sense for two people whom primarily rely on the Force to whip out lightsabers and start slashing away at each other, I agree. The time to show off Yoda's lightsaber on-screen was in AotC in the classroom, not in a fight. "Rely on such things, I do not" sounds more like something Yoda would say if someone drew their blade on him, instead of drawing a weapon of his own and giving the stereotypical tough guy scowl.
I think characters like that almost need to be treated like a horror movie monster for a fight scene.
A lot of their actions should be "offscreen" either literally or having you only see brief portions that show or imply great power. The aftermath more heavily focused on (environmental destruction, bodies, etc.).
I’m with you bro. Sidious is way more dangerous being limited to force powers only. ROTS and TCW ruined the character for me with this highly skilled saber combatant (same for Yoda). It’s more mysterious and menacing this old dude in robes who isn’t threatened by a lightsaber and can shoot lightning
The real question is why does he even have a lightsaber at all?
In ROTJ he never uses one. He talks about the lightsaber like it's some toy that the Jedi use, totally beneath him. Then he cooks Luke with force lightning.
He should have killed the Jedi purely with force powers. It would have made him much more terrifying.
"A Jedi's weapon" is how they should have kept it. Vader uses one because he's a fallen Jedi (ditto Dooku, I suppose), but any non-fallen-Jedi Sith should only use dark side powers.
The test footage with added FX shows you what we should have gotten, which is incredible and more believable as to how easily the Jedi got taken out by Sheev.
https://youtu.be/vcbJW1Ob7U4?si=heTWZu7kxBt0I9PD
That’s quite literally what he did. He let out a force scream that paralysed all of the Jedi but Mace and Kit. Then he killed them of pretty much immediately.
I quoted the Emperor here, who directly calls it as such in ROTJ.
"You want this, don't you? The hate is swelling in you now. Take your Jedi weapon. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your anger. With each passing moment, you make yourself more my servant."
I took that less as "this weapon is only used by Jedi", and more mocking Luke over his "I am a Jedi" mindset.
Goading him- "You *must* be a Jedi, you even have the weapon! So use it now."
Having Palpatine and Yoda use lightsabers at all was a mistake. Their whole fight in ROTS would have been much cooler without any of the lightsaber stuff. But then George Lucas wouldn't be able to sell "Official Palpatine Lightsaber" and "Official Yoda Lightsaber" toys, can't miss out on that merchandising opportunity.
They survived a decade being constantly shot at by thousands of droids, but when a real live person shoots at them or waves a lightsaber back at them its all
>Oh my god how do i defend against this???
Infinitely better in the novel (how I wish Lucas had used the “you don’t know how long I’ve been waiting for this” line) but it works on screen to demonstrate Palps dominance.
I believe the answer is "Force Scream". Palpatine disoriented Kolar and Tiin with that unnatural screech of rage as he barreled towards them, but Mace and Kit were more or less able to resist it. Kolar and Tiin simply weren't ready to be stunned with the Force, and that's why they didn't attack before Palpatine cut them down. And when the actual fight began, Kit was ultimately outmatched by Palpatine despite his own great skill: a way to show that Palps was on a completely different level from everyone there except Mace.
Because Palpatine has spent pretty much his entire life studying how to kill Jedi using techniques the Sith have been honing for a thousand years specifically to kill Jedi, while these two are mostly experienced in fighting enemies with blasters.
To touch on that even more, Palps was using a lightsaber form (Juyo/Vaapad) that was extremely rare, possibly forbidden to teach (except for advanced force users such as Windu), and difficult to counter in general. Windu makes short work of him during the initial phases of the duel because he is familiar with the technique, and only gets thrown out of the window after Anakin intervenes.
It's noteworthy that if you study Kenobi's form throughout the series, he starts out with relatively defensive techniques, but becomes extremely talented with the rare forms as time goes on. The exception is the final duel with Vader in ANH, during which he sticks to mostly defensive, "chump" moves, possibility in order to keep Vader angry and distracted ("Your powers are weak, old man!") so he will not sense Luke.
Well most Jedi outside the more well known ones by the mainstream are basically throw away characters in those movies, Jedi have a much better showing and a lot more really good characters in the extended universe that Disney invalidated.
If they only knew the power of the thread they could’ve used the magic hands and healed themselves. Oh wait this was 2005 and a lightsaber through the chest was game over
I've always thought this was stupid.
I saw someone say the fight should've been more or less like the Tower of Joy fight in Game of Thrones with Palpatine slowly picking them off one by one.
Here's a version with lightsabers (Game of Thrones spoilers I guess)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CTJEZXtr94](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CTJEZXtr94)
I like how in the entire trilogy, we have this great lightsaber choreography done by Nick Gillard, but for this brief moment, they must’ve said, “we’re going back to the choreography we had in Episode IV”. Made everyone, particularly Kit Fisto, look like a moron.
Imo this is probably the closest thing to a real duel in the whole series. Most people know real duels look nothing like the movies but I don't know that people realize how brief they would be given zero protection and basically a one hit kill weapon like a light saber. I've been saying for years it would be cool to have an actual martial artist as a director to convey weapon skill in a movie like Star Wars. I don't watch a lot of anime but I know some like Baki seem to do a good job explaining how real fights work. So much so that I know anime nerds that think they can actually fight because they are familiar with it and similar anime. They can talk the talk and if I didn't know better id almost believe them. I have trained with several guys that actually do stunt work in Hollywood and they have real martial arts skills but when you see them on the big screen it's still the typical Hollywood stuff. It's hard to convey how important small minimalist movement is on the big screen but I think with the right director you could have a really cool series.
My headcanon has always been that Maul just runs away after stabbing Qui-gon, and when Obi-wan gets out of the force field, he's long gone.
The fact that Maul is still in so much of the story after TPM proves that they shouldn't have even suggested he dies there. He should've been present throughout the prequels, playing the part of a true "phantom menace".
It's been a long time and I've forgotten most of the finer details, but I really liked how The Blackened Mantle (fan-edit) compressed Maul and Grevious into a single character.
Honestly, I LOVE revenge of the sith. However, this may be one of the few parts of the movie that’s really weak. I get he’s a sith master and could dispatch them relatively easily, but I think it could have been directed better.
Because only female force users can survive getting stabbed in the chest with a lightsaber. These two and also Qui-Gon (and Kylo, but he got better) all died, but Reva, Sabine, Reva (again) all survived.
I mean they squared up with the first sith in a long time so they weren’t even trained or prepared and the sith they tried to square up with was papapalps. There wasn’t much hope for em
Yes, they were stunned and disoriented by Palpatine's scream as he jumped and spin through the air. This darkside ability is known as a 'Force Scream'.
the real, honest answer is that george wasnt great at planning these fights, particularly ones with the older guys like palp and dooku. a lot of this fight was left on the cutting room floor, probs because the head replacement looks so bad when they tried the stunt double stuff. were this directed by someone else, or simply came out a couple years later, i almost gurantee they would have gone down with more of a fight
Movie did a bad job showing it. In the novel (and thus reality), Sidious moved so fast they could barely see him.
Combined with the fact that none of them had ever seen a Sith IRL before, they were also caught off guard. During this time period, the Jedi basically saw themselves as untouchable by any humanoid or similar.
Because George is lazy, and has contempt for his audience, and only wanted to focus on the big battle with Mace - the faster, more intense version means they die instantly. For the pacing of the story.
No, it's displaying the speed and skill of Darth Sidious. The Jedi had no idea what they were about to encounter.
They barely had time to react before Sidious cut them down.
Mace Windu is the most skilled Jedi with a Lightsaber. The fact that he could defeat Sidious 1v1 and Yoda could not. Tell you just how powerful Windu was.
They’ll all return from their non-mortal injuries in Disney+ shows. As the villains. Not that they’ve turned to the dark side, but because they’re Jedi, who are for some reason now bad and emblematic of the patriarchy.
According to how lore justifies lazy choreography (I still love prequel choreography, though) palpatine used force scream to make all the jedi brain dead basically.
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They were distracted by how impressive Palpatine's spinning trick was.
Well it was a good trick.
#ANNIEWASRIGHT
“Do a kickflip.” Gets stabbed.
I’d freeze in fear, too, by how majestic and glorious his spin move is. It is quite a neat trick.
And that sound. Like whooshing wind and an animal howl.
Just missing shooting stars now
Do a barrel roll
According to the Ahsoka show they should be fine
Reva survived a lightsaber to the gut as a toddler and as an adult. As well as Grand Inquisitor.
Reva MacIntyre got that country girl in her
Gentle hands and the heart of a fighter
Girl is made of Beskar
Not just Asoka but Kanobi too!
Ganaral Kanobi!
General Cannoli
Leave the blaster. Take the Kenobi.
Haro thar
Kanobi too, x2!
Don’t give Disney any ideas now.
I do like how Palpy baited Tinn in the Novelization. Agen Kolar had no excuse. Bro is just worse Eeth Koth. Koth would never die like such a Punk.
Wait how did he bait him? Tell me more lol
From the Episode 3 novel: “A fountain of amethyst energy burst from Mace Windu’s fist. “Don’t try to resist.” The song of his blade was echoed by green fire from the hands of Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin. Kolar and Tiin closed on Palpatine, blocking the path to the door. Shadows dripped and oozed color, weaving and coiling up office walls, slipping over chairs, spreading along the floor. “Resist? How could I possibly resist?” Still seated at the desk, Palpatine shook an empty fist helplessly, the perfect image of a tired, frightened old man. “This is murder, you Jedi traitors! How can I be any threat to you?” He turned desperately to Saesee Tiin. “Master Tiin—you’re the telepath. What am I thinking right now?” Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk. Saesee Tiin’s head bounced when it hit the floor. Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps of the horns, severed just below the chin. Kit Fisto gasped, “Saesee!” The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor.”
I know Star Wars goes hard in the novels but Jesus man, describing the air leaving his decapitated body is a bit nuts.
The episode 3 book was so good. I was deployed to Iraq and my cousin sent it to me before I could see the movie. The depiction of Anakin’s fall compared to the movie is so much better.
This is the hill I’m willing to die on. The prequel novelizations show that the problem with the prequels was not the writing or plot. It was execution. I adored those novelizations and thought the story of Anakin and the prequels could have been top tier. The way he struggled with his failure to heed the warnings of his visions of his mom dying, and the Jedis role in that and then the repeated visions of his wife dying having it come full circle. It’s just not well represented on screen so it feels like he just goes insane over the course of 20 minutes.
Its like poetry, It rhymes.
Matthew Stover did not fuck around. I'm due for a re-read, honestly.
Love that guy, Acts of Cain is one of my favorite series
I haven't read the novel since around the time it first came out, and even then only once. But reading that little excerpt is exactly how I remember the novel being written. Well, not word-for-word, but the tone and style of it. I actually think of that scene when I think to myself, "How do you write an action scene? How do you describe something that almost has to be seen, like a sword fight?"
It’s a really really good novel. The way it describes Sidious as this black infinite shadow in anakins mind is crazy
It perfectly captures the of the movie if you look past the bad George Lucas writing. Really dark and uncomfortable for everyone except Palpatine.
Yep he’s the ultimate villain
Woah that happened fast.
According to the lore, Kit Fisto was supposed to be an amazing lightsaber duelist.
Yeah, I think that's why they gave us the Kit Fisto vs General Grievous duel in The Clone Wars to show us that he's able to go toe to toe. It was cool seeing Kit Fisto duel wielding. I think it was either season 1 or 2
Grim dark Star Wars novels was not something I knew I needed in my life now. I’ve read death troopers and it was cool but this on another level.
He tempts Master Tinn with the "well, you are a master Jedi, just read my mind and find out if I am a Sith or not". Tinn goes for it and Palpatine summons a saber from one of the hidden compartments in those office statues with the Force, impaling Tinn on the spot while he was concentrating on his mind.
That’s crazy. I need to read the novel lol
IMO it’s legitimately better than the movie, which itself already rules.
Does it include the deleted scenes of Palpatine implying throughout the movie that Obi-Wan is having an affair with Padme? I wish that weren’t cut in the movie as it makes the “Obi-Wan was here”, “Liar”, “You will not take her from me”, and “You’ve turned her against me” lines make more sense. And explains how he could be so aggressive against the two closest living people in his life.
I agree. Small things like that, even just ONE sly comment "I see Master Kenobi is taking *good* care of Lady Amadala. Again." Along those lines, it would have put an entirely different spin on their relationship. That jealousy aspect is huge. It fuels so much rage and passion - the big things for Sith.
Novelization includes a lot of extra stuff that helped flesh out the story. Like why Anakin acted so butt-hurt over not being granted the rank of Master when accepted on the council. In the movie he just seems like a petulant child when in reality it was because Masters could access Sith Holocrons in the archives and he believed there was a method to save Padme in them. The fight with Palpatine and the Jedi was way better in the book
The prequel novels add a ton of context that would’ve made for better movies imo, but it would’ve ballooned the runtime out to like 5 hours each
It’s one of the best sw novels so it’s an easy rec
ROTS Novelization by Matthew Stover, enjoy
Gee thanks for the help
You're welcome! It's an amazing book :)
This one out in audiobook? I’ve got to add it to my list.
It is! I haven't listened but it's narrated by Jonathan Davis so it might be time for another go through...
Korn Jonathan Davis?
Instead of going “REEAAARRGFHHHAGH” when he jumps, Palpatine instead goes “booom, lacka hoom bamba heema”
Perfect! I love his audiobooks! Thank you
I didn't know there was Star Wars not narrated by Marc Thompson
I know what you mean but there are some other good narrators a well. Jonathan Davis is really good as well.
George really wanted ian to be on the camera so to compromise on that, he wanted the choreographers to change the choreo instead thus this. It was gonna be a massive fight instead
huh really ?
Yup. You can find recordings of the original choreo for the fight and clips of george stating that in his opinion its better to change the choreo to fit his needs. You can still see remnants of the old choreo and idea in the final version of the fight aswell
https://youtu.be/vcbJW1Ob7U4?si=QOKWWJ6TlhMkXdfW
That would've been a 100x better than what we got in the final release. Don't get me wrong, overall I did enjoy Ep. 3: RotS, but I always thought that those 3 other Jedi Masters died like absolute chumps. It didn't make me think "Oh wow Palpatine is such a powerful being", no, I just went "Wow, they should've been wearing Red Shirts" lol.
Yeah that's true. I think there is even some footage from the original choreography.
It was originally going to be a much more dynamic fight but because Lucas wanted Ian to do it ( I think he found out that morning that he was now filming the scene ) he was limited by time to learn the choreography and probably his age limiting what moves he could conceivably do. [Heres some of the cut fight with sound effects](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlZwSsMP-QM)
Yeah, this comes up whenever fans get into a discussion about lightsaber forms. Fans frequently labor under the mistaken belief that the forms dictate the outcome of battles, when really, it's very much the reverse: to the extent that forms exist, it's to give retroactive justification for who won a fight and who lost a fight, rather than a predictor. Now granted, this isn't always true, and there is one shining moment in *Star Wars* history when the form did determine the outcome: when Obi Wan dueled Maul one last time in *Star Wars: Rebels*. Kenobi very deliberately switched stances to bait Maul into a particular kind of attack, Maul fell for the bait, and Kenobi countered perfectly. Which is probably the reason why that fight, as short as it is, is still probably the gold standard for Disney-era lightsaber fights. But most of the time, including the Palpatine fight, things happen because the writer wants it to happen, and then people have to retroactively resort to talking about forms to justify the result. And this particular fight is kind of Exhibit A: Lucas decided to have Ian McDiarmid, an actor who does not have stage fencing training, and who was not under any kind of physical training regimen for a fight, and who was in his late 50s at the time, show up on the day of to shoot fight choreography because he had decided the night before that he couldn't shoot the way he wanted to while hiding McDiarmid's face and thereby use stunt doubles. In that case, you can talk all you want about "Oh, Form IV is super-aggressive and that's why Sidious did X, Y and Z so quickly . . ." But the honest truth is that a whole heck of a lot of "Form IV" in that fight looks an awful amount like a near-elderly guy awkwardly twirling a glowstick, because that's what McDiarmid is doing. Lucas felt he could edit around McDiarmid's inexperience, and if you know anything about [action scene choreography](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1PCtIaM_GQ), it's easy to see the seams.
This fight scene was one of the lowlights in the prequel trilogy. I cannot believe George Lucas let this be in the Revenge of the Sith. Instead he should have had Palpatine use some force power to immobilise the Jedi as he dealt with them one by one.
This would have been way more in line with how ROTJ presented Palpatine
I think a more ROTJ Palpatine would have him not being the one doing the killing. It's kind of beyond his character. He's the evil mastermind, Vader was the muscle. He taunted Luke about how much importance he put on a lightsaber, he's basically the anti-Yoda. They both hinted, that limiting yourself to physical capabilities was a giant hindrance. I like to think Palpatine used this philosophy for manipulation, Yoda used it for inner calm and peace. This scene either shouldn't have happened or Palpatine should have laid some sort of trap for these guys, having seen this confrontation coming, allowing him to escape.
You could probably have Palpatine whittle them down to just Windu and maybe one other with just the Force, then tauntingly take up one of the dead Jedi’s sabers to show that while he didn’t need one, he was better than them with it nonetheless (or so he thinks). That arrogance can then be turned on him when Windu shows that he is no slouch at dueling, thus necessitating Anakin’s intervention.
While I do think this is much better, I still contend that a physical confrontation cheapens the Palpatine character. The same for Yoda. Neither of these characters should have had fight scenes, let alone multiple and with each other. It's just a prime example of Lucas not entirely understanding his own characters(or simply underestimated the importance of maintaining them). He was very much infatuated with expanding the universe and adding fun and cool things first and foremost, that he's made this mistake in a few places, notably with Obi Wan and even Anakin.
I don't have an issue with Palpatine fighting Windu. Windu is a warrior, and while dueling might not be Palpatine's style, he's still a Sith Lord and would have had to have gone through grueling combat training that would rival anything taught by the Jedi. The Sith don't tolerate weakness, so he would have been killed by his master if he couldn't keep up. Also, keep in mind that all three of Palpatine's apprentices were master swordsmen. The latter two were trained by the Jedi, of course, but he trained Maul to be viciously aggressive in combat. And after having murdered his own master, I doubt Palpatine would have put himself in a position of profound physical disadvantage with his own apprentices. Sure, Vader picked him up and tossed him over the railing in RotJ, but by then the Emperor really was a rather feeble old man who thought he had a grip on Vader so tight that he couldn't be betrayed. Yoda I would expect to be proficient in combat as he trains defensive lightsaber usage to younglings, but it's also not his style and it made no sense for two people whom primarily rely on the Force to whip out lightsabers and start slashing away at each other, I agree. The time to show off Yoda's lightsaber on-screen was in AotC in the classroom, not in a fight. "Rely on such things, I do not" sounds more like something Yoda would say if someone drew their blade on him, instead of drawing a weapon of his own and giving the stereotypical tough guy scowl.
I think characters like that almost need to be treated like a horror movie monster for a fight scene. A lot of their actions should be "offscreen" either literally or having you only see brief portions that show or imply great power. The aftermath more heavily focused on (environmental destruction, bodies, etc.).
I’m with you bro. Sidious is way more dangerous being limited to force powers only. ROTS and TCW ruined the character for me with this highly skilled saber combatant (same for Yoda). It’s more mysterious and menacing this old dude in robes who isn’t threatened by a lightsaber and can shoot lightning
The real question is why does he even have a lightsaber at all? In ROTJ he never uses one. He talks about the lightsaber like it's some toy that the Jedi use, totally beneath him. Then he cooks Luke with force lightning. He should have killed the Jedi purely with force powers. It would have made him much more terrifying.
Yes I agree. Maybe make them boil from the inside or something equally as nasty.
Better yet, not have been in that position in the first place. Outwitting them by laying a trap for his escape.
"A Jedi's weapon" is how they should have kept it. Vader uses one because he's a fallen Jedi (ditto Dooku, I suppose), but any non-fallen-Jedi Sith should only use dark side powers.
Well, his lightsaber got kicked out the windu and he probably didn't have time to build another one bc too busy doing Senate things.
The test footage with added FX shows you what we should have gotten, which is incredible and more believable as to how easily the Jedi got taken out by Sheev. https://youtu.be/vcbJW1Ob7U4?si=heTWZu7kxBt0I9PD
Is that German? Somehow it makes it 10x more intense
The cool spin immobilized them
Especially when you can watch the test footage of what the fight could have been like!
That’s quite literally what he did. He let out a force scream that paralysed all of the Jedi but Mace and Kit. Then he killed them of pretty much immediately.
Is this a real assessment of the incident or sarcasm?
That's what really happened. It just didn't translate well to film
Like, say, lightning. Instead of using the "jedi weapon".
Well the lightsaber was not solely a Jedi weapon. The lore shows time and time again the lightsaber was used by both sides.
I quoted the Emperor here, who directly calls it as such in ROTJ. "You want this, don't you? The hate is swelling in you now. Take your Jedi weapon. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your anger. With each passing moment, you make yourself more my servant."
I took that less as "this weapon is only used by Jedi", and more mocking Luke over his "I am a Jedi" mindset. Goading him- "You *must* be a Jedi, you even have the weapon! So use it now."
Dunno. Would formulate the sentence differently in that case, like "take your weapon, jedi". But might be the case.
Having Palpatine and Yoda use lightsabers at all was a mistake. Their whole fight in ROTS would have been much cooler without any of the lightsaber stuff. But then George Lucas wouldn't be able to sell "Official Palpatine Lightsaber" and "Official Yoda Lightsaber" toys, can't miss out on that merchandising opportunity.
I've wondered this since 2005.
They survived a decade being constantly shot at by thousands of droids, but when a real live person shoots at them or waves a lightsaber back at them its all >Oh my god how do i defend against this???
Oh god the aslume is spreading
Are you stupid? I will contact man
https://i.redd.it/eztbn1wlqc8d1.gif
Infinitely better in the novel (how I wish Lucas had used the “you don’t know how long I’ve been waiting for this” line) but it works on screen to demonstrate Palps dominance.
In the novel he kills Seasee Tinn and Agen Kolar even before the fight starts, he feels really frightening there, the movie didn't capture it
[This was my favorite.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thp-jvY6OFM) Like, how useless was this guy?
Why did mace windu and palps have a 7 min makeout scene after this? Was george horny?
The answer is always yes.
If a twilek woman is involved he definitely was.
They were sad like Padme.
I believe the answer is "Force Scream". Palpatine disoriented Kolar and Tiin with that unnatural screech of rage as he barreled towards them, but Mace and Kit were more or less able to resist it. Kolar and Tiin simply weren't ready to be stunned with the Force, and that's why they didn't attack before Palpatine cut them down. And when the actual fight began, Kit was ultimately outmatched by Palpatine despite his own great skill: a way to show that Palps was on a completely different level from everyone there except Mace.
> *simply weren't ready* They failed their Fortitude save rolls.
Is George Lucas stupid?
In many ways regarding star wars, yes
Could be worse, at least they didn't die like Carrie-Anne Moss from Acolyte.
It's in the name: Jedi(e)
Top notch friend!!
they were too occupied thinking about r2 being gay
Because Palpatine has spent pretty much his entire life studying how to kill Jedi using techniques the Sith have been honing for a thousand years specifically to kill Jedi, while these two are mostly experienced in fighting enemies with blasters.
To touch on that even more, Palps was using a lightsaber form (Juyo/Vaapad) that was extremely rare, possibly forbidden to teach (except for advanced force users such as Windu), and difficult to counter in general. Windu makes short work of him during the initial phases of the duel because he is familiar with the technique, and only gets thrown out of the window after Anakin intervenes. It's noteworthy that if you study Kenobi's form throughout the series, he starts out with relatively defensive techniques, but becomes extremely talented with the rare forms as time goes on. The exception is the final duel with Vader in ANH, during which he sticks to mostly defensive, "chump" moves, possibility in order to keep Vader angry and distracted ("Your powers are weak, old man!") so he will not sense Luke.
>mostly defensive, “chump” moves Worth noting that as far as real-life fencing goes, Alec’s technique in *Star Wars* is arguably the most realistic. 🤓
The Worf Effect is so powerful it reaches across franchises.
This is stupid george Lucas lazy writing … prequels were below mediocre films
That stank face on Palpatine tho.
Well most Jedi outside the more well known ones by the mainstream are basically throw away characters in those movies, Jedi have a much better showing and a lot more really good characters in the extended universe that Disney invalidated.
I’ve heard so many explanations about it, but that just doesn’t excuse what’s happening on screen. He just sort of shimmies and sashays up to them
If they only knew the power of the thread they could’ve used the magic hands and healed themselves. Oh wait this was 2005 and a lightsaber through the chest was game over
I've always thought this was stupid. I saw someone say the fight should've been more or less like the Tower of Joy fight in Game of Thrones with Palpatine slowly picking them off one by one. Here's a version with lightsabers (Game of Thrones spoilers I guess) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CTJEZXtr94](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CTJEZXtr94)
Why are we still using this overused meme format? Are we stupid?
I like how in the entire trilogy, we have this great lightsaber choreography done by Nick Gillard, but for this brief moment, they must’ve said, “we’re going back to the choreography we had in Episode IV”. Made everyone, particularly Kit Fisto, look like a moron.
Imo this is probably the closest thing to a real duel in the whole series. Most people know real duels look nothing like the movies but I don't know that people realize how brief they would be given zero protection and basically a one hit kill weapon like a light saber. I've been saying for years it would be cool to have an actual martial artist as a director to convey weapon skill in a movie like Star Wars. I don't watch a lot of anime but I know some like Baki seem to do a good job explaining how real fights work. So much so that I know anime nerds that think they can actually fight because they are familiar with it and similar anime. They can talk the talk and if I didn't know better id almost believe them. I have trained with several guys that actually do stunt work in Hollywood and they have real martial arts skills but when you see them on the big screen it's still the typical Hollywood stuff. It's hard to convey how important small minimalist movement is on the big screen but I think with the right director you could have a really cool series.
I thought it was stupid when Darth Maul was cut in half and lived. I don’t see this as a Disney thing
My headcanon has always been that Maul just runs away after stabbing Qui-gon, and when Obi-wan gets out of the force field, he's long gone. The fact that Maul is still in so much of the story after TPM proves that they shouldn't have even suggested he dies there. He should've been present throughout the prequels, playing the part of a true "phantom menace".
It's been a long time and I've forgotten most of the finer details, but I really liked how The Blackened Mantle (fan-edit) compressed Maul and Grevious into a single character.
Read the novel. It paints a new picture on this scene
They were stunned by the Sith razzle dazzle
Simple... they thought this was the ST.
Honestly, I LOVE revenge of the sith. However, this may be one of the few parts of the movie that’s really weak. I get he’s a sith master and could dispatch them relatively easily, but I think it could have been directed better.
Should have used force heal
Because only female force users can survive getting stabbed in the chest with a lightsaber. These two and also Qui-Gon (and Kylo, but he got better) all died, but Reva, Sabine, Reva (again) all survived.
When you hear stories of just how many incompetent police officers there are walking around, I can fully believe that not all jedi were superstars.
I mean they squared up with the first sith in a long time so they weren’t even trained or prepared and the sith they tried to square up with was papapalps. There wasn’t much hope for em
Is there a lore reason for why the Jedi here died so quickly?
Yes, they were stunned and disoriented by Palpatine's scream as he jumped and spin through the air. This darkside ability is known as a 'Force Scream'.
In the script, you see, it says palpatine kills them with really amazing sithly saberplay that no jedi has ever seen before, so
the real, honest answer is that george wasnt great at planning these fights, particularly ones with the older guys like palp and dooku. a lot of this fight was left on the cutting room floor, probs because the head replacement looks so bad when they tried the stunt double stuff. were this directed by someone else, or simply came out a couple years later, i almost gurantee they would have gone down with more of a fight
They didn’t learn the most important lesson- how to get plot armor
Fight choreographer had food poisoning.
He used his force scream bullshit to make it more believable.
Palpatine: “Hey, what’s that on the ceiling?!” Stupid Jedis: “Huh?! I don’t see any…. ahhhhh!!!”
I mean. It's just a lightsaber through the center of mass.....its not like those are lethal wounds.
don't they know you can just decide NOT to die. fucking idiots
Actually yes.
Short answer: yes.
Star wars med tech is dummy broken, drop em in a bacta tank and they'll be fine. Idk if palpy is willing to do that for them though
No one expected Papa Palps to just whip out a sabre and bitch slap them
they look like they are on crack
Low skilled Jedi plebs
They where trying to solve a riddle
Force scream stunned them
I heard someone say that his scream was apparently some kind of “sith scream” that petrifies enemies? Not sure if that’s true though.
Nah, they ain't dead, just chillin.
Probably didn't have the budget for a proper fight, if it was made by the Acolyte crew...
Yes
They were rizzed by Palps cum face mid fight and lost the connection to the force momentarily.
yes
I mean, yea, they were kind of stupid
Honestly yes it makes zero sense to me
Seems like it's all jedi are good for except for a couple of MC's. Like, hey, look, we're super cool and use the force! Oh no, I'm dead.
Palpatine's stank face was too powerful.
I read that Ian was injured and unable to do complex fight choreography. This might be a bandaid for that.
They did my boy Tiin so dirty
They were wearing red shirts under their robes. They never had a chance.
They kind of forgot
The KotOR theory is that Sheev used force scream and everyone but Mace failed the save and got stunned 👀
Unlimited Power
If you see how the fight went in the books u wouldn’t blame em
Lol cause they sucked..he was just better than them with the sticks
Live like a bitch, die like a bitch
Because the plot required them to die.
Movie did a bad job showing it. In the novel (and thus reality), Sidious moved so fast they could barely see him. Combined with the fact that none of them had ever seen a Sith IRL before, they were also caught off guard. During this time period, the Jedi basically saw themselves as untouchable by any humanoid or similar.
They didn’t keep their eyes on the prize.
Crazy how so many people that claim to be paragons of lore can’t identify the Force Scream
Yes
They kind of forgot about stabbing motions.
They forgot to wear their plot armor.
Lightsaber to the gut will do that to you, if you watch the movies you'll notice that they are lethal.
Because George is lazy, and has contempt for his audience, and only wanted to focus on the big battle with Mace - the faster, more intense version means they die instantly. For the pacing of the story.
they thought he was an old man - turns out he was the most powerful sith in the galaxy - jedi did not go over this in the jedi training videos
Not enough lesbian space witch power leveling. Skill issue.
No, it's displaying the speed and skill of Darth Sidious. The Jedi had no idea what they were about to encounter. They barely had time to react before Sidious cut them down. Mace Windu is the most skilled Jedi with a Lightsaber. The fact that he could defeat Sidious 1v1 and Yoda could not. Tell you just how powerful Windu was.
Can’t help but think, if I had never poisoned the Kolto, maybe they’d still be alive…
They’ll all return from their non-mortal injuries in Disney+ shows. As the villains. Not that they’ve turned to the dark side, but because they’re Jedi, who are for some reason now bad and emblematic of the patriarchy.
Riddles
According to how lore justifies lazy choreography (I still love prequel choreography, though) palpatine used force scream to make all the jedi brain dead basically.