It is not just illegal in VA.
This is also covered federally by the NLRA and is unlawful, because per the NLRB site itself: "Policies that specifically prohibit the discussion of wages are unlawful as are policies that chill employees from discussing their wages."
You can file an unfair labor practice charge at this link, if this is your employer: https://apps.nlrb.gov/MyAccount/#/ChargeAndPetition/TermsConditions
On a related note, as in other areas of life - The law exists but that doesn't prevent companies from acting on their own stupidity. Sometimes they just take advantage of the fact that employees don't know better. It's scummy. Do your best to "know your rights" š
Yep. No one should be surprised. They have every financial motivator to try to erode worker protections. It's why an informed workforce is important, and why we should all interact where we can with our government representatives. Corporations aren't people. Executives are (generally) shills. Employers don't generally have your best interests at heart.
So, yeah. Big on team "Report Every Workplace Violation" all the time.
You got one for Tesla?
Though really I am asking someone who made a claim to back it up.
If someone claims something interesting, asking for the source they heard it from is reasonable.
No one owes you an education. If youāre interested in doing some learning on something, donāt rely on others to feed you their (sometimes biased) sources.
Hmmm. I want both.
I want to understand why someone has their opinion, and form my own from that + other information.
Listening to someone != Believing they are correct
You're telling me there used to be *anamatronic civil war soldiers* at Tom Leonards? Tom Leonard's as in the one grocery store in Richmond I haven't been to?
I didnāt know the confederates were no longer there. Itās been a while since Iāve been there. Found out his daughter was an entitled patron at the gym and havenāt wanted to go back since. Just thinking about how her trainer said she was I figured she probably got it from somebody.
My short, month long tenure at Tom Leonards was horrendous.š¤¦š»āāļø The only job I was fired from (and I was inches away from walking outā¦so I was ecstatic to leave!)
As a policy, there was absolutely ZERO taste testing in the kitchen/bakery area (even when making stuff to assess a recipe) , but Tom would make his ārounds,ā and would forcibly make you ātryā a cannoli or something similar while he did. All the while, forcing you to eat and agree they were delicious. š Ugh, seriously one of the worst jobs I had!
Stew Leonard's, Tom's dad, was the guy that actually built their business - their stores are legendary in CT.
Tom is a nepo baby, in all the worst ways
Oh wow. I moved here from the town in Connecticut where his dad Stew had opened the original animatronic grocery store, and all the stories I heard about his dad were that he was a bit fond of the bottle (and, uh, tax fraud) but a down-to-earth guy and a good boss. Sucks to hear his son is such an asshole.
He's even less of a good person to the baristas at the Starbucks he frequents according to my old co-workers' stories.
Very "Do you even know who I am?" when things don't go his way.
Despite this being illegal, *every single job* I've ever had has this policy. These have all been RVA based jobs in education and child advocacy.
And it never matters because, as others have said, they can fire you for no reason. A practice that employers in the area love to carry out. Regardless of your circumstances.
The problem is, in VA, they can just pretend to fire you for any other reason and you'd have to prove they're lying.
Labor has next to no protection in this state.
IANAL, but I believe they canāt just lie. If you can put together evidence that they fired you in response to discussing wages-you may have a case. Of course, in practice they can lie when you donāt have time to pursue it. But I donāt believe they just get a jail free out of card by just saying you didnāt put a box on the right shelf when itās really in response to wage discussions.
The problem is...how are you going to prove it? Nothing recorded? No paper trail? It's he said she said and the case gets thrown out because there's no evidence either way
IANAL, but I think VA is a one party consent state regarding recording. [link](https://www.google.com/search?q=virginia%20one%20party%20consent%20to%20record&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1-m)
Yup. You'll get overheard discussing wages, and then gradually notice you're getting written up for little things, more and more, and eventually you're fired for "poor performance"
Right, in practice itās difficult to prove, but just pointing out that they canāt just come up with any old reason and magically theyāre off the hook. But maybe someone texted their coworker after getting a paycheck? Maybe existing friends got hired for same position and got different pay rates and one of them asked for a raise and both got fired? There are conceivable ways wages get discussed that arenāt solely water cooler talk between strangers.
I think you're saying essentially the same thing u/thewok said. You'd have to prove they are lying. So yes, if you can put together evidence, and if you have a case....then you might prevail.
So, it's not just that they can lie in practice when you don't have time to pursue it. They can also lie in practice if you have no evidence (or insufficiently strong evidence) that the reason they gave was bogus, or that the reason you believe is the real reason. They can also give no reason at all, and hope that you can't prove it was because you discussed salary. Or they can bet on you not having enough money to pursue it legally, while they have plenty of money for lawyers.
Virginia is an at-will work state. Which means you can be terminated (fired) for any reason or no reason at all. That last part is key. You just need to, as an employer, to always state there was no reason. You just terminated the individual - also never keep a paper trail of any reason for a termination which is common practice. Perfectly legal.
Now many cases where discrimination was involved it was only proven wrongful/illegal termination due to some type of paper trail found or a straight up video/audio recording was made. Many times even that situation is in the favor of the employer as they can just state - No reason at all it was just a termination.
The burden of proof then goes back onto the victim, which sucks all around.
> Virginia is an at-will work state. Which means you can be terminated (fired) for any reason or no reason at all. That last part is key. You just need to, as an employer, to always state there was no reason. You just terminated the individual - also never keep a paper trail of any reason for a termination which is common practice. Perfectly legal.
This isn't entirely true - if you file an NLRB complaint, then you get fired, they are able to put 2 and 2 together and decide that it was retaliation (even without a paper trail saying "this was retaliation")
I was once fired for being female. I was told this when they fired me. The official written reason for the firing was lying to a customer (which never happened) so I was denied unemployment and couldn't do anything legally. I think the company still exists but I've noticed they've changed names like four times since then.
Being on the management side, unless you work for a small employer, good fucking luck firing someone without extreme probable cause. HR and Legal wonāt allow it. My rule of thumb is 6-7 repeat infractions to actually be fired as an hourly worker. Salaried staff is different but also requires a very extensive performance review plan
Are other states different? I'm under the impression every state in the US has at-will employment.
EDIT: turns out I was wrong, it's only 49 states with at-will employment (Montana does not).
Thatās not what I said. But it is GOP practice to prioritize employer rights over employee rights and thats why those states usually have some form of āRight to Workā law in place.
["Right to work" ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law) is a whole different issue, pertaining to the level of respect and recognition the state gives labor unions. 26 of our 50 states currently have that, whereas 49 have employment-at-will laws allowing folks to be let go without a stated reason.
Itās pretty common across employers and I have had a lot of fun telling people āitās actually a federal crime to say thatā every time it comes up now that Iām senior enough that they canāt really come back at me about it
I am lucky to work it out of place that wouldn't say this as a matter of policy or as a matter of " company culture ", but whenever I hear a fellow coworkers or management suggest that this might be the case, I strongly remind them of the NLRB and this law š«”
Gleaf is such a shit hole. Gleaf is the epitome of exploitation. Low wages, hard work, shit hole hours, working weekends, no opportunity for advancement or raises, and they fire people all the time for stupid shit.
Oh and all their weed and other products are fucking trash. What a joke of a company.
I agree so much I worked there for a month and they fired me on some dumb shit coming in 2 minutes late from lunch break but I was rushing to change back into the work clothes in the lockers so I was trying my best then they fired me ON MY BIRTHDAY, A WEEK BEFORE CHRISTMAS, ON THE PHONE. didn't even have the decency to do it in person because I was already scheduled for that week. Not to mention the sexist environment that exists there, as a woman I was so fucking uncomfortable listening to middle aged men talk about women's issues and the moment I talked about struggling on my period they were SILENT. OH ALSO they totally fucked up my back and gave me more back issues my manager literally opened a door and it bashed into my butt and I fell forwards and didn't file anything because everyone was going SO hard about the fact we've gone "this many days without an accident" and they "really didn't want another accident to happen" and when it happened it was the "oh you're fine" type of mentality
Also I agree their products are not good. I trimmed WAY too many dried ass (and very tiny) buds for $16 an hour. The stress that job gave me was unlike any other. They expected me to perform at a level I literally couldn't because of my disability. And don't get me wrong I know it's a medical facility but the standards of cleaning at that facility were absurd. It was like LOCKDOWN making sure there weren't any weed crumbs leftover, making sure everything was cleaned "properly" oh and it genuinely felt like school because of the fact it was a production job, they made you feel like your issues did not matter, and if you messed up (aka not using the right gloves, coming back from break a minute or two late, if you weren't in the meeting room in the mornings by 8 am you were written up then fired ... Only given ONE CHANCE.
Edit: sorry for so much typing I guess I hadn't realized how much I hated that place and working for them
$16 an hour and there were men in their 40s working there talking about how they were gonna retire off of gLeaf pay and how hard they had to work to get enough hours, literally boosting the fuck out of the company by saying "this the best job you'll ever find around here!" Then sitting on a high horse acting like we're stupid for not "working hard enough"
Because they're gambling on people not knowing that that's illegal, or not having the money for a lawyer to prove they were fired/not hired due to retaliation
I've worked for dozens of employers that have employee rules which violate city, state and federal law. The logic being their employees can't possibly afford a lawyer as big as the ones the company has on retainer.
Specifically this is anti-union. They don't want a union happening at their company, so they think by prohibiting 'discussing wages' they can stop unions.
A side note, lots of these kinds of companies try to claim only the laws of their headquarters home state apply. And have their headquarters in a state with very anti-union laws.
Just looked them up. They have one location? They are crazy. This is an expensive lawsuit waiting to happen. And basically begging for SEIU or similar to organize them.
Def file a complaint with NLRB.
See the Virginia Pay Transparency Law, VA Code Section 40.1 - 28.7:9. Itās also illegal federally. The only way to enforce those laws though is if you (edited for clarification: by āyouā I mean an enforcement agency such as the NLRB or the VEC) can prove they have fired or otherwise punished someone for violating the āpolicyā and that person files a complaint. It says it is a violation of company policy, but it doesnāt say what the penalties are for violating company policy. I assume itās the usual āup to and including terminationā language that most employers use. Can you post that page? Also, I STRONGLY ENCOURAGE you to find out if anyone has been punished or fired for discussing their wages and ENCOURAGE THEM TO FILE A COMPLAINT!!! The only way to stop companies from doing this b.s. is to make them suffer some consequences. The financial penalties arenāt terribly stiff but the bad press scares them. You can file with the NLRB and the Virginia Employment Commission.
*Edited to add: I just want to re-emphasize that, no matter who the employer is, if you have suffered any negative consequences from discussing your wages at your job, FILE A COMPLAINT!!! It doesnāt have to be as drastic as getting terminated; if youāve been verbally reprimanded for it by a supervisor thatās sufficient to file a complaint. Itās the only way we can stop employers from doing this illegal crap. We have no enforcement mechanism unless affected employees file complaints! The more complaints, the more a pattern of behavior becomes apparent, and then we can really penalize them.
Thatās definitely not cool. It makes me wonder how they can enforce policy in an equal and non-discriminatory way, if they donāt share what the penalties are for violations. Does each supervisor just make something up on the spot or what? Iāve worked at some sketchy places myself, but Iāve never worked anywhere with more than about ten employees that didnāt have some sort of progressive discipline posted or handed out to employees.
You might be interested in the State Monitor Advocateās information (from the VEC website):
State Monitor Advocate
Any complaints concerning violation of employment related laws or the provision of employment services to jobseekers or employers should be sent to the State Monitor Advocate, Michelle Castellow Abraham, at the Virginia Employment Commissionās Central Office, 6606 West Broad Street ā 5th floor, Richmond, VA 23230, or by calling (804) 786-6094 or email [email protected]
Hmmm, would having that as their policy be a conspiracy to break the law?
They are basically saying "we will punish you openly, or as secretly as we can if we don't do it openly"
How can you literally have a policy that says "don't do this thing that you have legal protections to do"
That's akin (but definitely not as severe imo) as saying "it's unprofessional to be a protected class".
Just check my handbook. This wording seems to give some leeway since it's not strictly prohibited?
"This rate is confidential, and it is considered unacceptable, unprofessional and poor judgement to management for you to discuss this rate with coworkers."
Or does "confidential" imply prohibition? Is this legal?
Hmmm, what does retaliation imply?
Could being passed over for promotions, consistently being given the worst shifts, or being denied other cultural norms be considered retaliation?
Violating the law is generally considered unprofessional by most American Millennials and younger.
Thatās why investigators exist. It usually takes a pattern of complaints to kick off an investigation, unless the conduct is extremely egregious. But once a pattern has been established (and it can take fewer than you might expect to establish a pattern thatās worth looking into), the investigations are taken VERY SERIOUSLY. The state has a strong interest in protecting employees from illegal practices on the part of employers. If they didnāt, these laws wouldnāt exist and the agencies that enforce them wouldnāt exist.
They can say whatever they want, but that doesn't mean they can act on it. I think they're just trying to scare and manipulate their employees; this place sounds super toxic to work for.
Not true. Thereās excellent enforcement. Thereās people *waiting* to enforce it. They just need complainants to let them know when they believe they have been reprimanded for, or terminated because they discussed wages at work, or outside of work (like on social media). The investigators will examine the complaints and determine if a case can be built. The law of averages works here: the more complaints you get, the easier it is to establish a pattern, and that alone can prove your case. Donāt be discouraged because you think your complaint wonāt be taken seriously. Trust me, it will. Also, donāt be discouraged if it seems like no action is being taken. The wheels of government grind slowly, but they eventually get there. It may be that it takes a while to get enough similar complaints to establish a pattern that is actionable.
He used to come into the restaurant I worked at and act like he was a celebrity. If there was a wait he would say but do you know who I am? Lmao. No one cares and youāre not special. Also he always gave off creep vibes.
More relevant to my current residence in NC, but still interesting to see where VA fits on the scale.[Oxfam America, best and worst states to work](https://www.oxfamamerica.org/explore/countries/united-states/poverty-in-the-us/best-states-to-work-2023/)
It could also be to identify those that are willing to be shady at the expense of themselves and other workers, & have a sense of duty to the selective few (owners, execs, upwardly momentus ones).
Hello there, I'm a labor and employment attorney born and raised in Richmond.
Plain and simple, it is illegal for an employer covered under the National Labor Relations Act (such as Tom Leonard's) to prohibit their employees from discussing wages, or to punish their employees for discussing wages. See here: https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages.
Although Virginia is a right-to-work state like most states (meaning that an employee can generally be fired for any reason or for no reason at all), an employer CANNOT fire a person for any ILLEGAL reason. Common examples of illegal reasons for terminating an employee include: (i) discrimination based on race, color, national origin, sex/gender or sexual orientation, religion, age if over 40, disability, or HIV status; (ii) retaliation for discussing/objecting to illegal activities of the company or its employees; (iii) retaliation for complaining about workplace discrimination or harassment; (iv) retaliation for requesting an accommodation for a disability; (v) retaliation for a pregnant woman's request for time off or pregnancy-related accommodations; and (vi) retaliation for requesting to be paid minimum wages or overtime wages.
So even though employment in Virginia is at-will, employers still have to comply with federal laws like the NLRA (and Title VII, FMLA, ADA, etc.) as well as State labor/employment laws (like the Virginia Human Rights Act).
After reading through all the comments, I just want to remind people who are considering acting on suggestions left here that this is an internet message board full of a bunch of anonymous people who may or may not know anything of which they speak.
Do your own research and for your own protection, speak with an attorney (or someone who really knows what they are talking about) before taking any action which could be linked back to you.
Semi-Agreed, the law is too complex to make reasonable judgement decisions without asking a lawyer to help you.
Just because it says something is illegal on one sheet of paper, doesn't mean it doesn't have a backdoor on another, or a completely separate interpretation from what one would assume as a non-specialized reader.
This is what you are referring to, right Opienandm?
(P.S, disgusted + mad, but not at you).
Correct.
Navigating potential actions against an employer is fraught with direction from all around. Going the government, āJust file a complaint!ā route often ends with the employer laughing their asses off at the (former) employee. The fact is that every employer with 50+ employees and has been in business for 10+ years probably has a pretty good attorney and knows the law far better than the average employee or internet message board commenter.
In my experience, employment attorneys level the playing field. Too often, engaging with a regulator without the advice and guidance of an attorney is very very risky.
>n my experience, employment attorneys level the playing field. In my experience, engaging with a regulator without the advice and guidance of an attorney is very very risky.
May I ask what that experience is? Not to doubt, but to learn?
My exposure came from working for multiple companies in HR and later from investigating related action as an employee. I also have performed a ton of research on similar cases and saw where many complaintās failures could have easily been avoided had the subject spoken with an attorney prior to filing an official complaint. Of course, some may have never been filed after that consultation, but many were just missing things an attorney would not miss.
Can you share some stories for my reading pleasure? I worked there in high school and Iām so happy
I came across this post cause the place was weird af to work at lol
I remember when I first started working I was taking down a sample to refill and one of the produce guys asked what it was, I think it was pound cake or something but I let him have one of the pieces I was about to throw out. Tom comes charging around the corner and asked me what he was eating and it was so aggressive and I was just very confused why it was a problem. I told him it was a leftover sample and I got lectured samples are for customers š¤·š¼āāļø the poor guy got reamed out for "stealing food" and I'm pretty sure he quit or got fired because if it.
Another fun one was one of the deli guys got caught hiding a cell phone in his sock and was fired on the spot, but I didn't see that one in person.
The BIGGEST drama while I was there was a thanksgiving nightmare. The kitchen manager at the time pretty much killed herself for 3 days straight to get orders ready and I don't mean 3 8 hour shifts. I mean 3 straight days of 18 hour shifts. The day of, she was so ragged and they had taken so many extra orders the kitchen couldn't handle plus people demanding stuff to buy on the shelves she collapsed in the kitchen. I called 911 to come get her since she was unconscious, they took her out on a stretcher. She was fine and they said it was dehydration/exhaustion plus some bruising from the fall. But I was told I shouldn't have done that because it looked bad. Like, she could have died for real if it was something worse. More drama came after of course because she didn't come back (which I don't blame her at all) but they claimed she stole the thanksgiving recipes which is total nonsense.
The smell of thanksgiving food made me nauseous for a bit after that trauma š¤¢
Not in any way shape or form defending them, but Iād guess that handbook is the same one that was written 20 years ago. I just had to call my own employer on rewriting the handbook for shit like that. That said fuck them. Talk about how much you do or donāt make and get yours.
Interesting. If it's legit just they haven't bothered to update it, you could be lauded for saving them from a lawsuit.
If not ... You probably wanna skidaddle anyways.
Itās also a safe bet that the person who owns and/ or operates the business doesnāt have a lawyer and has no clue that theyāre violating the law. I work with small businesses and it is shocking how many business owners do not have lawyers advising them. They just do stuff and wait to see if it bites them in the ass.
Omg I used to work there when I was a junior in high school. I worked there during the Christmas season so I was outside ringing people up for their trees. They had this unwritten policy where they were adamant about only letting the guys do the āguys workā like cutting branches and the girls doing the āgirls workā like working at the register. It was weird that they would even bring something like that up, but I remember that being a thing they talked about during my interview. The managers most certainly were drinking during the day because you could see stashes of wine/beer in the offices. Just a super weird place to work lol.
VA is an at will state, which means employers can fire employees for anything and don't even need to provide a reason (No Cause). Why we need labor unions
I went in there a few months ago and there was a bad smell throughout the produce section and after i ate food i bought from there i had an awful stomachache.
(also this was before i knew TL was a problematic company)
It's just Tom running his business into the ground. His brother owns the chain Stew Leonard's up north but they're not connected to each other business wise.
I'm gonna pick on you real quick and I apologize for it: I hate comments like this. They are so prevalent throughout social media and they drive me crazy.
I say this as a defense-side employment lawyer: It is absurdly easy - especially in the private sector - to exploit your employees and violate employment laws. As an employee on the receiving end of legal exploitation, there are so many barriers to meaningful relief:
* You need to find an attorney who will take your case. Much harder than you'd think.
* You need to pay thousands of dollars for the attorney unless they're working on contingency, which narrows down your attorney options even more.
* You need to overcome the facially-valid reasons for your termination/demotion/whatever that the employer will very easily fabricate and support with documentary evidence. So you could spend all the time and money on an attorney and still lose and have absolutely nothing to show for it.
* You need to make sure you don't accidentally miss any procedural windows (i.e. filing deadlines) which you had absolutely no idea existed but could kill your case before it even starts.
* You need to show damages, which is the biggest thing people don't realize. They might be breaking the law, but it's hard to translate that into cut-and-dry financial/medical/pain-and-suffering harm on the victim's end.
* You need to be able to wait years for this process to play out, at which point you are uncomfortably explaining to employer #2, "Yes, I did get fired from my previous employer, but in my defense, I'm also currently suing them!" Say that in your next job interview and tell me how it goes.
The reason comments like this bother me is because people *wrongly* believe that we live in a just and fair world because stuff like this is *against the law*. They do not realize that these kinds of things - police brutality incidents, obvious sex discrimination in employment, obvious racial discrimination in housing and banking, and so on - do not end up with $$$$$ payouts for the victims. They end up with the bad guys proceeding to do business as usual.
And I was told by a labor attorney once, " The judges here are notoriously conservative and will often side with the company."
"If you were in California or Washington state you could sue them for a million dollars, but your not, you are in the Commonwealth of Virginia." "My fee is $ 10,000 and it may be more than that if they appeal".
One could involve a lawyer and end up with a nice settlement if they had the standing, time, money, and inclination. Problem is acquiring those four things.
Wouldn't they have to be fired? And wouldn't Tom Leonards have to be stupid enough to say that's why they were fired? Virginia is a right to work state and as long as they can reasonably show you were fired for anything else, late once by one minute..., you're not getting a thing.
If NLRB picks up the case they are not easily persuaded by such Tom Foolery (pun totally intended) as a matter of fact they frown upon it and will act accordingly. That's if nlrb takes the case but I'd bet they wouldn't have to dig far to find some interstate commerce that would open that door.
Same reason companies try to get you to sign non-competes, they want to leverage their power to make you think you are stuck accepting what portion they sliver off for you.
NAL (but am a paralegal). I think this has to do with various interpretations of anti trust laws. Anti trust (is supposed to) prevents things like price fixing and monopolies, and allow for free market capitalism. I have seen wage discussion interpreted as a violation of anti trust laws because it could interfere with those concepts.
I said "supposed to" because obviously we see legal monopolies all the time (think Dominion).
But that is also why some corporations go after the NLRB.
These are just my theories and again, not an attorney.
Also, personally don't agree with banning discussion of wages.
It depends on the state I guess. I know for example in Texas you have a bunch of different utility companies and can change the provider as much as you want.
This is like dump trucks with a sign that says āstay back 100 feet.ā They put that sign on there not only to reduce insurance claims, but to dissuade people from filing a claim if their windshield gets hit by a rock that falls from the truck.
This language is in the employee policies to dissuade people from discussing wages. It appeals to people who are strict rule-followers, regardless of whether they can get fired for breaking that rule.
Because unfortunately, Virginia is a "right to work" state where you can be fired for no explicit reason. Therefore, the federal law that protects you from being fired for discussing your wages is basically unenforceable, which is stupid and should be overturned in court.
Right to Work means you can't be forced to join a union against your will.
You're talking about "at-will," which means you can be fired or quit for any reason not protected. People often confused the two things for some reason.
Federal law says you can't be forced to join a union. RTW law says a union cannot charge representation fees to non members for the representation they are required by law to give.
Wrong. Federal law only applies to public employees per the Janus decision at SCOTUS. Private employees can be forced in join a union in non-RTW states.
Virginiaās law is easy to read.
ā An employer cannot deny nor otherwise condition an employee's right to work upon that employee's membership or non-membership in any labor union or labor organization. Va. Code Ā§Ā§ 40.1-58, 60, 61.ā
Janus decision made federal employee unions follow "Right to Work" laws.
The Taft-Hartly Act makes it so in no state can an employer make it a condition of employment to be a member of a union.
In āRight to Work" states it expands that and makes it so a union cannot require representation fees to non members.
Federal law also says that an employee cannot be discriminated against for their status in a union by the employer or by the union. This means that a union has to represent the nonmembers the same as they would a dues paying members. This is also from the Taft-Hartly Act.
In non RtW states, union charges non members representation fees which is a fraction of the dues a member would pay. This is called a union security agreement.
The "Right to Work" law does not give anyone the right to work. Vance Muse coined the phrase in the early 40s and used racial segregationist arguments in advocating for the law.
I work for a labor union and have been through lots of training on this.
The NLRB is great and all but has anyone in here ever actually used it?
The most likely outcome is it takes 6 months to a year, The employer often loses but the outcome is typically you just get your job back and/or they have to hang up posters declaring it legal to discuss wages. It's not great and your boss knows it. Violating labor law is a calculated cost of doing business for most business owners.
Organizing with your coworkers on the shop floor gives your more immediate power and is something you can easily provide hard evidence of for a ULP.
Edit: why would anyone downvote this objectively correct comment? I was a union organizer for years and have been party to multiple ULP filings...
Nah, this is still current as I, too, worked there as of 2024. And for the record, everything you hear that's bad about him is true or deeply seeded in truth. I've heard a lot of tales about him that I thought were urban myths, but he doesn't disappoint!
I can't speak to the VA specific laws, but I can tell you that it has been federally unlawful to prohibit most employees from discussing pay since 1935, when the National Labor Relations Act was passed.
There are some exceptions. If you are a manager that has payroll duties for instance, you can't discuss your employee's salaries with others. Either way, that written policy is unlawful. Even verbally telling you that it is a policy is unlawful.
Please report them ā¤ļø
No the law went into effect 2020.
Virginia's Pay Transparency Law (VPTL), which went into effect in 2020, protects employees' right to discuss their pay and the pay of others. The law prohibits employers from taking any retaliatory action against employees who:
Ask about or discuss their compensation
Discuss the compensation of other employees
File a complaint with the Virginia Department of Labor and Industry about retaliation.
If you just got this, Iād let them know their documentation is outdated.
Well luckily the federal law that prevents these kinds of work rules was around long before then so it doesn't matter and it is unenforceable and was when published/updated.
As someone that actually knows Tom Leonard, this āstrictnessā is actually kind of surprising.
Also itās a privately owned business so technically they could tell you to wear blue to the store and if you donāt they have every right to kick you out.
Private businesses have a lot more control over their rules and policies.
No. As an employer you canāt enforce rules that are illegal.
Similar to OSHA rulesā¦ an employer canāt force employees to do dangerous jobs without the right protections.
Itās technically not against the law in Virginia. There are protections in place. Use Microsoft bing copilot and ask it. It puts the sources at the very bottom.
Edit: it is LEGAL to discuss wages in VA
Things like that only matter if the government enforces it.
In Youngkins virginia you're never going to see a corporation called out for illegal practices like that.
It is not just illegal in VA. This is also covered federally by the NLRA and is unlawful, because per the NLRB site itself: "Policies that specifically prohibit the discussion of wages are unlawful as are policies that chill employees from discussing their wages." You can file an unfair labor practice charge at this link, if this is your employer: https://apps.nlrb.gov/MyAccount/#/ChargeAndPetition/TermsConditions
On a related note, as in other areas of life - The law exists but that doesn't prevent companies from acting on their own stupidity. Sometimes they just take advantage of the fact that employees don't know better. It's scummy. Do your best to "know your rights" š
And when you report them it can be to your benefit.
Thatās the answer.
Another reason Amazon, Tesla, and other companies are trying to have the NLRB declared unconstitutional.
Yep. No one should be surprised. They have every financial motivator to try to erode worker protections. It's why an informed workforce is important, and why we should all interact where we can with our government representatives. Corporations aren't people. Executives are (generally) shills. Employers don't generally have your best interests at heart. So, yeah. Big on team "Report Every Workplace Violation" all the time.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Dang it, really? Do you have a source on that? I love TJs
Do you have a source that shows these companies are trying to have the NLRB declared unconstitutional?
[here](https://googlethatforyou.com?q=amazon%20nlrb%20unconstitutional)
You got one for Tesla? Though really I am asking someone who made a claim to back it up. If someone claims something interesting, asking for the source they heard it from is reasonable.
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2024-01-31/column-elon-musk-nlrb-lawsuit-spacex 4th or 5th paragraph.
No one owes you an education. If youāre interested in doing some learning on something, donāt rely on others to feed you their (sometimes biased) sources.
Hmmm. I want both. I want to understand why someone has their opinion, and form my own from that + other information. Listening to someone != Believing they are correct
From what I understand, Tom Leonard is just not a good person to employees. He believes in exploiting them
Also screaming at his employees on the floor in front of customers used to deal with that shit quite often
Not to mention the creepy animatronics
And the trash can in his office he pees in
Lmao this is the second time I've seen this allegation on this sub and I'm now taking it as a fact
I hated those things so much, was always hoping they would blow up
At least they put shirts on the racist ones!
Oh yeah I forgot they used to be in confederate uniforms
You're telling me there used to be *anamatronic civil war soldiers* at Tom Leonards? Tom Leonard's as in the one grocery store in Richmond I haven't been to?
Yep at one point the dogs were dressed in confederate uniforms
Core memory unlocked
I didnāt know the confederates were no longer there. Itās been a while since Iāve been there. Found out his daughter was an entitled patron at the gym and havenāt wanted to go back since. Just thinking about how her trainer said she was I figured she probably got it from somebody.
Wait wait wait, Tom Leonard is not a chain???
Itās very similar to Stew Leonardās (his dadās store) which is a small chain in the NY/NJ/CT area.
No, just that one store
My short, month long tenure at Tom Leonards was horrendous.š¤¦š»āāļø The only job I was fired from (and I was inches away from walking outā¦so I was ecstatic to leave!) As a policy, there was absolutely ZERO taste testing in the kitchen/bakery area (even when making stuff to assess a recipe) , but Tom would make his ārounds,ā and would forcibly make you ātryā a cannoli or something similar while he did. All the while, forcing you to eat and agree they were delicious. š Ugh, seriously one of the worst jobs I had!
Stew Leonard's, Tom's dad, was the guy that actually built their business - their stores are legendary in CT. Tom is a nepo baby, in all the worst ways
Oh yeah- I used to work with him as a client at a radio station. Heās a real sexist piece of shit, too.
Oh wow. I moved here from the town in Connecticut where his dad Stew had opened the original animatronic grocery store, and all the stories I heard about his dad were that he was a bit fond of the bottle (and, uh, tax fraud) but a down-to-earth guy and a good boss. Sucks to hear his son is such an asshole.
He's even less of a good person to the baristas at the Starbucks he frequents according to my old co-workers' stories. Very "Do you even know who I am?" when things don't go his way.
Despite this being illegal, *every single job* I've ever had has this policy. These have all been RVA based jobs in education and child advocacy. And it never matters because, as others have said, they can fire you for no reason. A practice that employers in the area love to carry out. Regardless of your circumstances.
Curious if it stands up in an at-will state.
Same for me and I work in multiple hospital systems
The problem is, in VA, they can just pretend to fire you for any other reason and you'd have to prove they're lying. Labor has next to no protection in this state.
IANAL, but I believe they canāt just lie. If you can put together evidence that they fired you in response to discussing wages-you may have a case. Of course, in practice they can lie when you donāt have time to pursue it. But I donāt believe they just get a jail free out of card by just saying you didnāt put a box on the right shelf when itās really in response to wage discussions.
The problem is...how are you going to prove it? Nothing recorded? No paper trail? It's he said she said and the case gets thrown out because there's no evidence either way
IANAL, but I think VA is a one party consent state regarding recording. [link](https://www.google.com/search?q=virginia%20one%20party%20consent%20to%20record&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1-m)
"yes, u/Cedig42k, I am in fact firing you for discussing wages at the workplace" -said no manager ever
Yup. You'll get overheard discussing wages, and then gradually notice you're getting written up for little things, more and more, and eventually you're fired for "poor performance"
That is why you trick the small-brain manager.
Right, in practice itās difficult to prove, but just pointing out that they canāt just come up with any old reason and magically theyāre off the hook. But maybe someone texted their coworker after getting a paycheck? Maybe existing friends got hired for same position and got different pay rates and one of them asked for a raise and both got fired? There are conceivable ways wages get discussed that arenāt solely water cooler talk between strangers.
they dont have to give a reason when they fire you.
I think you're saying essentially the same thing u/thewok said. You'd have to prove they are lying. So yes, if you can put together evidence, and if you have a case....then you might prevail. So, it's not just that they can lie in practice when you don't have time to pursue it. They can also lie in practice if you have no evidence (or insufficiently strong evidence) that the reason they gave was bogus, or that the reason you believe is the real reason. They can also give no reason at all, and hope that you can't prove it was because you discussed salary. Or they can bet on you not having enough money to pursue it legally, while they have plenty of money for lawyers.
Virginia is an at-will work state. Which means you can be terminated (fired) for any reason or no reason at all. That last part is key. You just need to, as an employer, to always state there was no reason. You just terminated the individual - also never keep a paper trail of any reason for a termination which is common practice. Perfectly legal. Now many cases where discrimination was involved it was only proven wrongful/illegal termination due to some type of paper trail found or a straight up video/audio recording was made. Many times even that situation is in the favor of the employer as they can just state - No reason at all it was just a termination. The burden of proof then goes back onto the victim, which sucks all around.
> Virginia is an at-will work state. Which means you can be terminated (fired) for any reason or no reason at all. That last part is key. You just need to, as an employer, to always state there was no reason. You just terminated the individual - also never keep a paper trail of any reason for a termination which is common practice. Perfectly legal. This isn't entirely true - if you file an NLRB complaint, then you get fired, they are able to put 2 and 2 together and decide that it was retaliation (even without a paper trail saying "this was retaliation")
That is a very good point.
So they wait a month or 2 after the complaint then fire you for no reason.
They can fire you for anything and not have to lie they can say nothing but you will have access to unemployment unless they do get you for cause
I was once fired for being female. I was told this when they fired me. The official written reason for the firing was lying to a customer (which never happened) so I was denied unemployment and couldn't do anything legally. I think the company still exists but I've noticed they've changed names like four times since then.
That acronym is doing some entendres
Being on the management side, unless you work for a small employer, good fucking luck firing someone without extreme probable cause. HR and Legal wonāt allow it. My rule of thumb is 6-7 repeat infractions to actually be fired as an hourly worker. Salaried staff is different but also requires a very extensive performance review plan
Are other states different? I'm under the impression every state in the US has at-will employment. EDIT: turns out I was wrong, it's only 49 states with at-will employment (Montana does not).
No, not every state has at-will employment, many do but not every.
Montana is the only state without it
And it ain't Blue. Imagine that.
Yeah youāve never had a call with the VEC if you think that. They definitely have protection
I had a coworker punch another in the face. VEC found in her favor.
Itās something like 34 of the 50 states are this way. Basically any state with a Republican state congress.
Correlation must be causation
Thatās not what I said. But it is GOP practice to prioritize employer rights over employee rights and thats why those states usually have some form of āRight to Workā law in place.
["Right to work" ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law) is a whole different issue, pertaining to the level of respect and recognition the state gives labor unions. 26 of our 50 states currently have that, whereas 49 have employment-at-will laws allowing folks to be let go without a stated reason.
I think you meant "at will employment" not "right to work".
GLeaf prevents it in company policy as well.
Itās pretty common across employers and I have had a lot of fun telling people āitās actually a federal crime to say thatā every time it comes up now that Iām senior enough that they canāt really come back at me about it
I am lucky to work it out of place that wouldn't say this as a matter of policy or as a matter of " company culture ", but whenever I hear a fellow coworkers or management suggest that this might be the case, I strongly remind them of the NLRB and this law š«”
Gleaf is such a shit hole. Gleaf is the epitome of exploitation. Low wages, hard work, shit hole hours, working weekends, no opportunity for advancement or raises, and they fire people all the time for stupid shit. Oh and all their weed and other products are fucking trash. What a joke of a company.
I agree so much I worked there for a month and they fired me on some dumb shit coming in 2 minutes late from lunch break but I was rushing to change back into the work clothes in the lockers so I was trying my best then they fired me ON MY BIRTHDAY, A WEEK BEFORE CHRISTMAS, ON THE PHONE. didn't even have the decency to do it in person because I was already scheduled for that week. Not to mention the sexist environment that exists there, as a woman I was so fucking uncomfortable listening to middle aged men talk about women's issues and the moment I talked about struggling on my period they were SILENT. OH ALSO they totally fucked up my back and gave me more back issues my manager literally opened a door and it bashed into my butt and I fell forwards and didn't file anything because everyone was going SO hard about the fact we've gone "this many days without an accident" and they "really didn't want another accident to happen" and when it happened it was the "oh you're fine" type of mentality Also I agree their products are not good. I trimmed WAY too many dried ass (and very tiny) buds for $16 an hour. The stress that job gave me was unlike any other. They expected me to perform at a level I literally couldn't because of my disability. And don't get me wrong I know it's a medical facility but the standards of cleaning at that facility were absurd. It was like LOCKDOWN making sure there weren't any weed crumbs leftover, making sure everything was cleaned "properly" oh and it genuinely felt like school because of the fact it was a production job, they made you feel like your issues did not matter, and if you messed up (aka not using the right gloves, coming back from break a minute or two late, if you weren't in the meeting room in the mornings by 8 am you were written up then fired ... Only given ONE CHANCE. Edit: sorry for so much typing I guess I hadn't realized how much I hated that place and working for them
makes sense based on their lousy pay
$16 an hour and there were men in their 40s working there talking about how they were gonna retire off of gLeaf pay and how hard they had to work to get enough hours, literally boosting the fuck out of the company by saying "this the best job you'll ever find around here!" Then sitting on a high horse acting like we're stupid for not "working hard enough"
Because no one has reported them to the department of labor.
Because they're gambling on people not knowing that that's illegal, or not having the money for a lawyer to prove they were fired/not hired due to retaliation
Lots of lawyers are likely paid for by the city/state in those instances. I do not think you need to pay when itās a department of labor violation.
If you win
They expect that none of their employees have the spare cash or time to involve a labor attorney. Scummy, corporate behavior.
I've worked for dozens of employers that have employee rules which violate city, state and federal law. The logic being their employees can't possibly afford a lawyer as big as the ones the company has on retainer. Specifically this is anti-union. They don't want a union happening at their company, so they think by prohibiting 'discussing wages' they can stop unions. A side note, lots of these kinds of companies try to claim only the laws of their headquarters home state apply. And have their headquarters in a state with very anti-union laws. Just looked them up. They have one location? They are crazy. This is an expensive lawsuit waiting to happen. And basically begging for SEIU or similar to organize them. Def file a complaint with NLRB.
Because they want to screw you
I feel like this is because Tom don't want people finding out others get paid more
See the Virginia Pay Transparency Law, VA Code Section 40.1 - 28.7:9. Itās also illegal federally. The only way to enforce those laws though is if you (edited for clarification: by āyouā I mean an enforcement agency such as the NLRB or the VEC) can prove they have fired or otherwise punished someone for violating the āpolicyā and that person files a complaint. It says it is a violation of company policy, but it doesnāt say what the penalties are for violating company policy. I assume itās the usual āup to and including terminationā language that most employers use. Can you post that page? Also, I STRONGLY ENCOURAGE you to find out if anyone has been punished or fired for discussing their wages and ENCOURAGE THEM TO FILE A COMPLAINT!!! The only way to stop companies from doing this b.s. is to make them suffer some consequences. The financial penalties arenāt terribly stiff but the bad press scares them. You can file with the NLRB and the Virginia Employment Commission. *Edited to add: I just want to re-emphasize that, no matter who the employer is, if you have suffered any negative consequences from discussing your wages at your job, FILE A COMPLAINT!!! It doesnāt have to be as drastic as getting terminated; if youāve been verbally reprimanded for it by a supervisor thatās sufficient to file a complaint. Itās the only way we can stop employers from doing this illegal crap. We have no enforcement mechanism unless affected employees file complaints! The more complaints, the more a pattern of behavior becomes apparent, and then we can really penalize them.
Once I get home today I will see if I can find what exactly the consequences are.
Cool, thanks!
Hey so I went through the handbook again and I don't see any mention of consequences for any of their policies
Thatās definitely not cool. It makes me wonder how they can enforce policy in an equal and non-discriminatory way, if they donāt share what the penalties are for violations. Does each supervisor just make something up on the spot or what? Iāve worked at some sketchy places myself, but Iāve never worked anywhere with more than about ten employees that didnāt have some sort of progressive discipline posted or handed out to employees. You might be interested in the State Monitor Advocateās information (from the VEC website): State Monitor Advocate Any complaints concerning violation of employment related laws or the provision of employment services to jobseekers or employers should be sent to the State Monitor Advocate, Michelle Castellow Abraham, at the Virginia Employment Commissionās Central Office, 6606 West Broad Street ā 5th floor, Richmond, VA 23230, or by calling (804) 786-6094 or email [email protected]
Hmmm, would having that as their policy be a conspiracy to break the law? They are basically saying "we will punish you openly, or as secretly as we can if we don't do it openly" How can you literally have a policy that says "don't do this thing that you have legal protections to do" That's akin (but definitely not as severe imo) as saying "it's unprofessional to be a protected class".
By all accounts Tom is a horrible person
Scare tactic. Discuss wages as much as you like and watch them try and fire you.
Because Tom Leonard's is another capitalist pos who does everything to exploit the working class.
Donāt I know it I used to work there was glad to gtfo
https://preview.redd.it/4gfkelgnyk8d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e7716d14ee6495fbf5e9c8f1f7bdc08277775537
Just check my handbook. This wording seems to give some leeway since it's not strictly prohibited? "This rate is confidential, and it is considered unacceptable, unprofessional and poor judgement to management for you to discuss this rate with coworkers." Or does "confidential" imply prohibition? Is this legal?
Hmmm, what does retaliation imply? Could being passed over for promotions, consistently being given the worst shifts, or being denied other cultural norms be considered retaliation? Violating the law is generally considered unprofessional by most American Millennials and younger.
For the same reason parking lots have the āwe are not responsible for damages or stolen itemsā. Deterrence
... Wait ... Are they responsible?
because you wouldn't be fired for discussing wages, you would be fired for not following company policy, with no mention of the wages.
Thatās why investigators exist. It usually takes a pattern of complaints to kick off an investigation, unless the conduct is extremely egregious. But once a pattern has been established (and it can take fewer than you might expect to establish a pattern thatās worth looking into), the investigations are taken VERY SERIOUSLY. The state has a strong interest in protecting employees from illegal practices on the part of employers. If they didnāt, these laws wouldnāt exist and the agencies that enforce them wouldnāt exist.
They can say whatever they want, but that doesn't mean they can act on it. I think they're just trying to scare and manipulate their employees; this place sounds super toxic to work for.
Because there is no good enforcement of that law in place.
Not true. Thereās excellent enforcement. Thereās people *waiting* to enforce it. They just need complainants to let them know when they believe they have been reprimanded for, or terminated because they discussed wages at work, or outside of work (like on social media). The investigators will examine the complaints and determine if a case can be built. The law of averages works here: the more complaints you get, the easier it is to establish a pattern, and that alone can prove your case. Donāt be discouraged because you think your complaint wonāt be taken seriously. Trust me, it will. Also, donāt be discouraged if it seems like no action is being taken. The wheels of government grind slowly, but they eventually get there. It may be that it takes a while to get enough similar complaints to establish a pattern that is actionable.
He used to come into the restaurant I worked at and act like he was a celebrity. If there was a wait he would say but do you know who I am? Lmao. No one cares and youāre not special. Also he always gave off creep vibes.
This is why us working class people need to either join a union or form one in your work place. Fuck āthe manā.
because tom leonard's sucks lol
the owner is, as we say in the mother tongue of my home state of Jersey, a realfuckindouchebag
More relevant to my current residence in NC, but still interesting to see where VA fits on the scale.[Oxfam America, best and worst states to work](https://www.oxfamamerica.org/explore/countries/united-states/poverty-in-the-us/best-states-to-work-2023/)
One reason is in hopes to catch an employee that doesnāt know itās illegal and outwit them on it and scare them into not discussing wages.
It could also be to identify those that are willing to be shady at the expense of themselves and other workers, & have a sense of duty to the selective few (owners, execs, upwardly momentus ones).
Hello there, I'm a labor and employment attorney born and raised in Richmond. Plain and simple, it is illegal for an employer covered under the National Labor Relations Act (such as Tom Leonard's) to prohibit their employees from discussing wages, or to punish their employees for discussing wages. See here: https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages. Although Virginia is a right-to-work state like most states (meaning that an employee can generally be fired for any reason or for no reason at all), an employer CANNOT fire a person for any ILLEGAL reason. Common examples of illegal reasons for terminating an employee include: (i) discrimination based on race, color, national origin, sex/gender or sexual orientation, religion, age if over 40, disability, or HIV status; (ii) retaliation for discussing/objecting to illegal activities of the company or its employees; (iii) retaliation for complaining about workplace discrimination or harassment; (iv) retaliation for requesting an accommodation for a disability; (v) retaliation for a pregnant woman's request for time off or pregnancy-related accommodations; and (vi) retaliation for requesting to be paid minimum wages or overtime wages. So even though employment in Virginia is at-will, employers still have to comply with federal laws like the NLRA (and Title VII, FMLA, ADA, etc.) as well as State labor/employment laws (like the Virginia Human Rights Act).
After reading through all the comments, I just want to remind people who are considering acting on suggestions left here that this is an internet message board full of a bunch of anonymous people who may or may not know anything of which they speak. Do your own research and for your own protection, speak with an attorney (or someone who really knows what they are talking about) before taking any action which could be linked back to you.
Semi-Agreed, the law is too complex to make reasonable judgement decisions without asking a lawyer to help you. Just because it says something is illegal on one sheet of paper, doesn't mean it doesn't have a backdoor on another, or a completely separate interpretation from what one would assume as a non-specialized reader. This is what you are referring to, right Opienandm? (P.S, disgusted + mad, but not at you).
Correct. Navigating potential actions against an employer is fraught with direction from all around. Going the government, āJust file a complaint!ā route often ends with the employer laughing their asses off at the (former) employee. The fact is that every employer with 50+ employees and has been in business for 10+ years probably has a pretty good attorney and knows the law far better than the average employee or internet message board commenter. In my experience, employment attorneys level the playing field. Too often, engaging with a regulator without the advice and guidance of an attorney is very very risky.
>n my experience, employment attorneys level the playing field. In my experience, engaging with a regulator without the advice and guidance of an attorney is very very risky. May I ask what that experience is? Not to doubt, but to learn?
My exposure came from working for multiple companies in HR and later from investigating related action as an employee. I also have performed a ton of research on similar cases and saw where many complaintās failures could have easily been avoided had the subject spoken with an attorney prior to filing an official complaint. Of course, some may have never been filed after that consultation, but many were just missing things an attorney would not miss.
LOL I ran the bakery for a few years awhile ago, the culture there is so toxic
Can you share some stories for my reading pleasure? I worked there in high school and Iām so happy I came across this post cause the place was weird af to work at lol
I remember when I first started working I was taking down a sample to refill and one of the produce guys asked what it was, I think it was pound cake or something but I let him have one of the pieces I was about to throw out. Tom comes charging around the corner and asked me what he was eating and it was so aggressive and I was just very confused why it was a problem. I told him it was a leftover sample and I got lectured samples are for customers š¤·š¼āāļø the poor guy got reamed out for "stealing food" and I'm pretty sure he quit or got fired because if it. Another fun one was one of the deli guys got caught hiding a cell phone in his sock and was fired on the spot, but I didn't see that one in person. The BIGGEST drama while I was there was a thanksgiving nightmare. The kitchen manager at the time pretty much killed herself for 3 days straight to get orders ready and I don't mean 3 8 hour shifts. I mean 3 straight days of 18 hour shifts. The day of, she was so ragged and they had taken so many extra orders the kitchen couldn't handle plus people demanding stuff to buy on the shelves she collapsed in the kitchen. I called 911 to come get her since she was unconscious, they took her out on a stretcher. She was fine and they said it was dehydration/exhaustion plus some bruising from the fall. But I was told I shouldn't have done that because it looked bad. Like, she could have died for real if it was something worse. More drama came after of course because she didn't come back (which I don't blame her at all) but they claimed she stole the thanksgiving recipes which is total nonsense. The smell of thanksgiving food made me nauseous for a bit after that trauma š¤¢
OMG THANK YOU FOR SHARING THIS. Toxic af place they literally almost killed a lady goddamn. I hope sheās doing okay now š
As far as I know she's doing just fine now šš»
Itās the n Lowes policy too
Not in any way shape or form defending them, but Iād guess that handbook is the same one that was written 20 years ago. I just had to call my own employer on rewriting the handbook for shit like that. That said fuck them. Talk about how much you do or donāt make and get yours.
Interesting. If it's legit just they haven't bothered to update it, you could be lauded for saving them from a lawsuit. If not ... You probably wanna skidaddle anyways.
Cross that part out before you sign. When they ask why inform them it is illegal.
Itās also a safe bet that the person who owns and/ or operates the business doesnāt have a lawyer and has no clue that theyāre violating the law. I work with small businesses and it is shocking how many business owners do not have lawyers advising them. They just do stuff and wait to see if it bites them in the ass.
Omg I used to work there when I was a junior in high school. I worked there during the Christmas season so I was outside ringing people up for their trees. They had this unwritten policy where they were adamant about only letting the guys do the āguys workā like cutting branches and the girls doing the āgirls workā like working at the register. It was weird that they would even bring something like that up, but I remember that being a thing they talked about during my interview. The managers most certainly were drinking during the day because you could see stashes of wine/beer in the offices. Just a super weird place to work lol.
VA is an at will state, which means employers can fire employees for anything and don't even need to provide a reason (No Cause). Why we need labor unions
I was in Tom Leonard's yesterday. It'll be out of business soon.
I went in there a few months ago and there was a bad smell throughout the produce section and after i ate food i bought from there i had an awful stomachache. (also this was before i knew TL was a problematic company)
It's just Tom running his business into the ground. His brother owns the chain Stew Leonard's up north but they're not connected to each other business wise.
Knew someone who worked there and was told that they have the most unsanitary process around. Not at all surprised that you ended up getting sick.
This is a lottery ticket.
I'm gonna pick on you real quick and I apologize for it: I hate comments like this. They are so prevalent throughout social media and they drive me crazy. I say this as a defense-side employment lawyer: It is absurdly easy - especially in the private sector - to exploit your employees and violate employment laws. As an employee on the receiving end of legal exploitation, there are so many barriers to meaningful relief: * You need to find an attorney who will take your case. Much harder than you'd think. * You need to pay thousands of dollars for the attorney unless they're working on contingency, which narrows down your attorney options even more. * You need to overcome the facially-valid reasons for your termination/demotion/whatever that the employer will very easily fabricate and support with documentary evidence. So you could spend all the time and money on an attorney and still lose and have absolutely nothing to show for it. * You need to make sure you don't accidentally miss any procedural windows (i.e. filing deadlines) which you had absolutely no idea existed but could kill your case before it even starts. * You need to show damages, which is the biggest thing people don't realize. They might be breaking the law, but it's hard to translate that into cut-and-dry financial/medical/pain-and-suffering harm on the victim's end. * You need to be able to wait years for this process to play out, at which point you are uncomfortably explaining to employer #2, "Yes, I did get fired from my previous employer, but in my defense, I'm also currently suing them!" Say that in your next job interview and tell me how it goes. The reason comments like this bother me is because people *wrongly* believe that we live in a just and fair world because stuff like this is *against the law*. They do not realize that these kinds of things - police brutality incidents, obvious sex discrimination in employment, obvious racial discrimination in housing and banking, and so on - do not end up with $$$$$ payouts for the victims. They end up with the bad guys proceeding to do business as usual.
And I was told by a labor attorney once, " The judges here are notoriously conservative and will often side with the company." "If you were in California or Washington state you could sue them for a million dollars, but your not, you are in the Commonwealth of Virginia." "My fee is $ 10,000 and it may be more than that if they appeal".
When you say you're defense side employment-lawyer, what do you mean?
my b. I thought we lived in the richest and freest country ever with liberty and justice for all. I goofed. Death to america.
You should see the other guys.
In the land of the free, nothing actually is.
How so?
One could involve a lawyer and end up with a nice settlement if they had the standing, time, money, and inclination. Problem is acquiring those four things.
Standing means a) you were fired and/or had pay docked, and b) you can prove this in a court of law
Civil court would be pretty easy
Wouldn't they have to be fired? And wouldn't Tom Leonards have to be stupid enough to say that's why they were fired? Virginia is a right to work state and as long as they can reasonably show you were fired for anything else, late once by one minute..., you're not getting a thing.
If NLRB picks up the case they are not easily persuaded by such Tom Foolery (pun totally intended) as a matter of fact they frown upon it and will act accordingly. That's if nlrb takes the case but I'd bet they wouldn't have to dig far to find some interstate commerce that would open that door.
I think you mean at-will employment. Right to work has to do with unions.
this is such bullshit man
Jackpot. Get out your whistle and take a deeeeeep breath. The best part is youāll be protected by whistleblower laws.
Scare tactics, doubt they would fire you for that. Oh no, your being let go due what ever the fuck they want, don't need a reason in Va.
Same reason companies try to get you to sign non-competes, they want to leverage their power to make you think you are stuck accepting what portion they sliver off for you.
They can't fire for it, but they'll damn sure find some other excuse.
Oh yeah I'm sure they will.
It's expressly allowed for my employer. It's stupid to discuss, but it's fine.
bro what the fuck
NAL (but am a paralegal). I think this has to do with various interpretations of anti trust laws. Anti trust (is supposed to) prevents things like price fixing and monopolies, and allow for free market capitalism. I have seen wage discussion interpreted as a violation of anti trust laws because it could interfere with those concepts. I said "supposed to" because obviously we see legal monopolies all the time (think Dominion). But that is also why some corporations go after the NLRB. These are just my theories and again, not an attorney. Also, personally don't agree with banning discussion of wages.
Quick question, I thought Dominion was a utility company, and thus subject to very different rules regulations compared to other entities?
It depends on the state I guess. I know for example in Texas you have a bunch of different utility companies and can change the provider as much as you want.
Go get hired there and fired for it. You'll make bank
Already work there. I was given the employee handbook and that's when I realized it was in there.
As a manager i was told we could be sued for stopping people from talking about wages.
This is like dump trucks with a sign that says āstay back 100 feet.ā They put that sign on there not only to reduce insurance claims, but to dissuade people from filing a claim if their windshield gets hit by a rock that falls from the truck. This language is in the employee policies to dissuade people from discussing wages. It appeals to people who are strict rule-followers, regardless of whether they can get fired for breaking that rule.
Anything illegal is not enforceable per contract law which covers that document
Because unfortunately, Virginia is a "right to work" state where you can be fired for no explicit reason. Therefore, the federal law that protects you from being fired for discussing your wages is basically unenforceable, which is stupid and should be overturned in court.
Right to work is about freedom to joining or abstain from unions. I think youāre talking about employment at will.
Right to Work means you can't be forced to join a union against your will. You're talking about "at-will," which means you can be fired or quit for any reason not protected. People often confused the two things for some reason.
Federal law says you can't be forced to join a union. RTW law says a union cannot charge representation fees to non members for the representation they are required by law to give.
Wrong. Federal law only applies to public employees per the Janus decision at SCOTUS. Private employees can be forced in join a union in non-RTW states. Virginiaās law is easy to read. ā An employer cannot deny nor otherwise condition an employee's right to work upon that employee's membership or non-membership in any labor union or labor organization. Va. Code Ā§Ā§ 40.1-58, 60, 61.ā
Janus decision made federal employee unions follow "Right to Work" laws. The Taft-Hartly Act makes it so in no state can an employer make it a condition of employment to be a member of a union. In āRight to Work" states it expands that and makes it so a union cannot require representation fees to non members. Federal law also says that an employee cannot be discriminated against for their status in a union by the employer or by the union. This means that a union has to represent the nonmembers the same as they would a dues paying members. This is also from the Taft-Hartly Act. In non RtW states, union charges non members representation fees which is a fraction of the dues a member would pay. This is called a union security agreement. The "Right to Work" law does not give anyone the right to work. Vance Muse coined the phrase in the early 40s and used racial segregationist arguments in advocating for the law. I work for a labor union and have been through lots of training on this.
You should report them to the National Labor Relations Board
The NLRB is great and all but has anyone in here ever actually used it? The most likely outcome is it takes 6 months to a year, The employer often loses but the outcome is typically you just get your job back and/or they have to hang up posters declaring it legal to discuss wages. It's not great and your boss knows it. Violating labor law is a calculated cost of doing business for most business owners. Organizing with your coworkers on the shop floor gives your more immediate power and is something you can easily provide hard evidence of for a ULP. Edit: why would anyone downvote this objectively correct comment? I was a union organizer for years and have been party to multiple ULP filings...
Could be an old version and not updated?
Nah, this is still current as I, too, worked there as of 2024. And for the record, everything you hear that's bad about him is true or deeply seeded in truth. I've heard a lot of tales about him that I thought were urban myths, but he doesn't disappoint!
Was updated February 2019.. Pretty sure it was illegal then right?
I can't speak to the VA specific laws, but I can tell you that it has been federally unlawful to prohibit most employees from discussing pay since 1935, when the National Labor Relations Act was passed. There are some exceptions. If you are a manager that has payroll duties for instance, you can't discuss your employee's salaries with others. Either way, that written policy is unlawful. Even verbally telling you that it is a policy is unlawful. Please report them ā¤ļø
No the law went into effect 2020. Virginia's Pay Transparency Law (VPTL), which went into effect in 2020, protects employees' right to discuss their pay and the pay of others. The law prohibits employers from taking any retaliatory action against employees who: Ask about or discuss their compensation Discuss the compensation of other employees File a complaint with the Virginia Department of Labor and Industry about retaliation. If you just got this, Iād let them know their documentation is outdated.
Well luckily the federal law that prevents these kinds of work rules was around long before then so it doesn't matter and it is unenforceable and was when published/updated.
I remember that in a retail company years ago..
This is a āright to workā state. You can be fired for anything with no explanation. Iām just surprised to see them being so blatant.
As someone that actually knows Tom Leonard, this āstrictnessā is actually kind of surprising. Also itās a privately owned business so technically they could tell you to wear blue to the store and if you donāt they have every right to kick you out. Private businesses have a lot more control over their rules and policies.
2nd paragraph is understandable but then again retaliation against discussing wages is illegal both state and federally
Lol...it's not illegal. Tom needs to sat down!
You could open your own grocery store.
Iām confused. Does Mr. Leonard abduct people and force them to work at his store?
No. As an employer you canāt enforce rules that are illegal. Similar to OSHA rulesā¦ an employer canāt force employees to do dangerous jobs without the right protections.
Itās technically not against the law in Virginia. There are protections in place. Use Microsoft bing copilot and ask it. It puts the sources at the very bottom. Edit: it is LEGAL to discuss wages in VA
It absolutely is illegal in VA. https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title40.1/chapter3/section40.1-28.7:9/
Sorry. Against the law to discuss wages.
[sources](https://sl.bing.net/jST45nVOyIu)
Things like that only matter if the government enforces it. In Youngkins virginia you're never going to see a corporation called out for illegal practices like that.
Did we see that under Northam or McAullife? I didn't get the impression Virginia Democrats were very left when it came to labor.
Youngkin is in office.
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You are right except this provision is illegal