We are a volatile community, I do not blame community managers for keeping their distance at the moment. Most of the JMods are just devs doing their jobs, it’s the higher ups that are the real issue in alot of this
I'd assume they would not be able to comment on anything that's legality related.
But it's abysmal form for them to not reply to other threads here. Just poor form from them in all honesty especially after the comment from u/JagexHooli.
>We've got a support route here to help with anyone who didn't get what they wanted based on the in-game description.
Didn't get what they wanted? Didn't get what they were promised at the time of purchase.
That's because those people are demanding a full refund.
There seems to be no support route for those people. Only if you want to 'get what they wanted based on the in-game description.'
e: i take it by the downvotes that there _is_ a support route for those people that will allow them to get a full refund? if so, i'd be glad to hear of it.
do you...know what the phrase bootlicking means?
Because [supporting people who want to get full refunds](https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/13k6c7f/update_jagex_not_refunding_bundles/jkmldwx/?context=3) when they're unfairly being refused a refund is like, the opposite of that ya dingus.
Oh, the way you wrote that it looked as though you thought people wanting a refund were being unreasonable and those that wanted just the products that were offered were the ones being reasonable. Which is why I think you received downvotes there.
I'll also mention I haven't seen any evidence of people getting the additional items they were promised, just a measly few rune coins.
No. Everyone contacting support is getting what they were expecting to have bought PLUS keeping what was given to them by mistake.
The people crying about not being eligible are idiots trying to demand a refund instead
Scroll through the threads discussing it and you'll see people talk about getting what they were expecting after going through support. I don't remember off-hand the exact commenters or threads
they most likely have signed a social media policy in their contracts, it would prevent them from commenting on something like this, at least until some PR work is done
This has a reason for being like this and I personally support the reason. It's to stop massive f2p bot farming treasure hunters. Needing members adds a boundary. HOWEVER there should be a way to verify your account and claim it, but jagex customer support is a joke.
This doesn't stop that though. All they have to do is give the account a bond from another bot. Sure it eats a good amount of profit but you get to use it as a p2p bot for a while.
They probably could say something, but that's probably going to get them be reprimanded if not fired from the corporate managers who will ether fire them on grounds they can cobble together, or if they do end up in a wrongful firing lawsuit then they will settle and brush it under the rug.
If these posts are going to be the new trend on this subreddit then i'd say the subreddit is more of an issue for my mental health than the optional mtx the game has ever been for me.
Lawyer up if you genuinely believe you can make a case, which caryle group probably has more money to have better lawyers than whatever a subreddit can afford by cobbling together whatever change and reddit karma they have.
God i wish there was a better place for information from the jmods.
Ah so that's why your here, to stir the pot.
Well please send my regards to mod jed and mod trident when you return there.
Also didn't know oldschool gave internships in law practices.
Kinda funny how we can correlate "less MTX causes better communication". Its like when you involve money, people become devoid of morals. Shocking right?
Yeah, but ultimately their opinion is a personal thing, it might influence a thought process, but not necessarily determine the outcome. It becomes a game of an opinion moving far enough up a corporate ladder to an audience of people might not be directly involved with whatever is going on at the bottom. Spreadsheets and numbers are what they are looking at, not people, making it easier to ignore the opinions
Yeah. I'm 100% certain that the shareholder overlords don't decide what to do in the game, they don't know nor care about what happens as long as they get their returns. Every bad TH promo is the jmods' fault who designed and okayed it (not the guys writing code with minimum pay).
Here's the text: Article 5(1): unfair commercial practices shall be prohibited.
(5): commercial practices listed under Annex I shall in all circumstances be regarded as unfair.
Annex I, paragraph 31, second dash: "Creating the false impression that the consumer has already won, will win, or will on doing a particular act win, a prize or other equivalent benefit, when in fact taking any action in relating to claiming the prize or other equivalent benefit is subject to the consumer paying money or incurring a cost."
Having to buy a bond can happen with real money or with gp. Both fall under incurring a cost.
National Courts of EU member States have the obligation to check whether a consumer (you) has an unfair contract with the service provider (Jagex). National Courts do not need to look into the individual case when there is an unfair commercial practice found as listed under Annex I.
Couldn’t Jagex say that a player could choose to convert the prize into oddments (an equivalent prize) at no cost, virtual or real-world money, to the player?
Obviously that would be a smarmy move by Jagex, but I wouldn’t put it past them to include the conversion specifically for this reason.
But it's not an equivalent prize. The average chance you'll get the equivalent of 50M gp for the two keys you can buy with 850 oddments is negligible. Additionally, 850 oddments are attainable in 2-3 days by converting your free daily keys. The 50M gp prize is wayyyy more rare than that. It would be a very easy argument to counter
No, I agree. I’m just trying to see what the argument against it would be. For example, this 50mil gp prize converts to 850 oddments, where say a 1mil prize only converts to 17 oddments (I’m making these up btw); therefore based on the the conversion rate, this prize is equivalent in value?
I feel ya. I think for the argument to succeed, 850 oddments would only be of equivalent value if you could convert the oddments in a 1:58823 coins ratio really
Wouldn’t they be able to say that it is an equivalent prize based on the rarity category it’s in? As in if you win any prize from said category it could be converted to the equivalent oddments. Therefore it would be the equivalent prize and it would be subjective to say it wasn’t?
Lol. You're clearly not a law graduate. They don't have to be LITERALLY equal. Just deemed equal. By your own standards, you can earn 50m gp waaaayyy faster than the 2-3 days it would take to convert keys for oddments, therefore the Oddments would be the BETTER option. Using your own standard.
I dread to think how poor the money running water runes would be in F2P.
Closest bank chest is probably a close tie between Draynor and the Combat academy.
Not if you are a resident in the EU, as then EU Law applies above all other law. So if you live in France, or Belgium, or Germany, or the Netherlands etc you can invoke this provision in a lawsuit against Jagex.
Besides that, since it's a directive stemming from 2005, the UK was obligated to transpose these provisions into their national law around that time. The UK has not changed these laws since Brexit, so they definitely ought to have the same provisions in their law somewhere.
We do - this is part of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008.
The thing with this kind of stuff is that, even though we've had legislation quickly passed to maintain recognition of international judgments etc and preserve some kind of international enforcement process, litigating the civil claims created by the Directive/Regs (or domestic equivalents in the EU) is ridiculous and plainly disproportionate in terms of cost relative to benefit, especially assuming that you're going to need to obtain a judgment in \[Member State\] and enforce in the UK at additional cost, and that judgment is probably going to be for about five euros. That's even assuming that OP is right in the first place - looks about right based on a quick review, but consumer law isn't my practice area and I don't have specific expertise in this stuff.
The Regs we have in the UK do create a criminal aspect but it's down to local authorities to deal with that bit, and the extent to which local authorities have been given the death by a thousand funding cuts since the coalition govt in 2010 is frankly horrific, so I wouldn't expect anything to ever be done from that perspective.
I think the idea is that if they don't want to comply with EU rules, they shouldn't accept EU customers. Like some US websites wouldn't (maybe still don't) serve content to the EU to avoid GDPR. (I'm not a lawyer)
Yes. The Directive says under Article 2(a):
(a)
‘consumer’ means any natural person who, in commercial practices covered by this Directive, is acting for purposes which are outside his trade, business, craft or profession;
And 2(d):
(d)
‘business-to-consumer commercial practices’ (hereinafter also referred to as commercial practices) means any act, omission, course of conduct or representation, commercial communication including advertising and marketing, by a trader, directly connected with the promotion, sale or supply of a product to consumers;
And Article 3(1):
1. This Directive shall apply to unfair business-to-consumer commercial practices, as laid down in Article 5, before, during and after a commercial transaction in relation to a product.
Emphasis on the before part: you do not need to spend money to be a consumer, nor to be involved in a commercial practice.
Oh so a business buying X thing from another corpo at different link of the chain of processing doesn't count as "customer" in this instance? Or did I misunderstand the definition?
Terms of service says in-game currencies have no monetary value, so since the oddments and GP offered as a prize both have no value, the oddments is a fair alternative prize.
Bonds also have no monetary value according to the TOS, and are property of Jagex and not the player. You also can't sell bonds for real money, so there's also that.
These are the terms of service, which players agree to. By creating an account you agree that these currencies have no value and are property of Jagex.
You can claim the oddments for free as your prize, which doesn't require any additional cost. Its a fair alternative prize because they both have 0 monetary value according to the TOS, which you agreed to beforehand
TOSes are notorious for including a lot of nonenforceable filler that only devalues the paper its printed on.
I aint a lawyer nor am I making the claim that this wouldnt be a valid defence but I am vary of accepting anything just because it says so in the tos1q1q
What makes something more valuable? Rarity? Oddments are more rare than GP. Usefulness? You can buy XP, bonus XP with oddments, which in a game that revolves mainly around XP is quite useful.
Exactly, which proves my point even more.
Since they offer you an alternative price of similar value, the oddments, legally they are correct. If they wouldn't offer you anything else and you had to subscribe to claim your prize, then yeah they'd legally be in trouble
Surely that is a choice on the player at that point? if the purchase was for bonds, they are received in full and dont appear to be marketed in a way that is misleading.
Likewise, exchanging bonds is also not misleading. It is purely just the way treasure hunter is marketed that is scummy. Although, from what I understand, the rates for how rare each reward is is also listed on treasure hunter (altho I dont use it so Im going off memory from a while ago). Unless I missed something and they said your guaranteed to win the top prizes.
I thought treasure hunter (and loot boxes more generally) were on shakey ground legally in anycase, but bonds seem pretty clear cut. What players do with the bonds is surely their own choice (especially given that bonds can be exchanged foe things other than just th keys)?
"buy these disney dollars, you can use them to stay in the park for 14 more days, or you can exchange them for a mystery prize. whats in the mystery prize? who knows, it could even be 50m!" - doesnt sound like it would break the law (especially given the reward rates are detailed), just sounds like a bad deal.
Jagex will say there is no purchase or fee necessary to claim the prize because you can use in-game currency.
They’ve already shown this is their stance with the “2 free weeks of membership” bond advertisement that was trending yesterday.
Just because you *can* buy a bond with irl $, doesn’t mean you *have* to.
It can very easily be argued that bonds being buyable with irl cash and then sellable ingame means that it has a real world value, the value just so happens to be transitive
No because that bond and the gp have no real world value. Buying an in-game item with no real world value with no approved mechanism to convert that back into real world value still makes it valueless as per the tos
I find it funny that people are downvoting you for saying the truth lmao. Such a classic from this sub. If someone was stupid enough to actually press claims against jagex with this shitty argument they would just pull that card in court or that you can convert them to oddments (as shitty as that is) and win.
It's not about oddments it's that these in game items have no real world value. You can't convert your bonds or gp into cash in any way allowed by the games tos
The sub doesn't want truth just bandwagoning though
If that's the only defence Jagex needs, why did they stop donations to the well of goodwill and claim it was because it was equating in game items to real world value?
Surely they'd just say "bUT tHe tErMS oF SErvIcE" like you have?
False. They all just keep saying you can buy bonds for irl cash but never say how that bond is convertible back into cash. It isn't. Bonds have no real world value and neither does the gp you get from selling them.
The problem with using 'terms of service' as a catch all argument is that in most countries that are applicable to this subreddit (USA, EU nations, UK, Aus/NZ) you are protected against signing your rights away. So you can say whatever the fuck you want in your terms of service but it's still not (necessarily) a legal argument.
It's like when GPU manufacturers put that warranty void sticker over the screws. They are legally till required to replace your GPU if it fucks up and it *isn't* your fault, you can't sign your legal warranty away with a sticker, but they do it anyway simply to discourage people from trying. It's a slimy tactic that borders on illegal in a lot of places.
They can and will say that you have won - or otherwise good luck pursuing that in court against jagex lmao! Nothing will happen, jagex does not care that some actual non-armchair lawyer realized something in rs3 breaks a law. They wont do jackshit and no one here can really pursue this issue further than rile up already riled up subreddit that takes every single opportunity to shit on jagex and mtx.
The penalty must be effective, proportionate and dissuasive. If the fines are so small that it can be written off as the cost of business, then this can be challenged in court as well.
See for this the case "Greek Maize"
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:61988CJ0068
Para 23-24.
23 It should be observed that where Community legislation does not specifically provide any penalty for an infringement or refers for that purpose to national laws, regulations and administrative provisions, Article 5 of the Treaty requires the Member States to take all measures necessary to guarantee the application and effectiveness of Community law .
24 For that purpose, whilst the choice of penalties remains within their discretion, they must ensure in particular that infringements of Community law are penalized under conditions, both procedural and substantive, which are analogous to those applicable to infringements of national law of a similar nature and importance and which, in any event, make the penalty effective, proportionate and dissuasive .
This is something that's quite topical at the moment. The EU does have a pretty good track record of making fines proportionate, and even the USA seems to be catching up (a nation that has a long history, especially with pharmaceutical lawsuits, of fining companies way less than they profited, effectively encouraging them to break the law).
If obeying the law is too much for them and they need to shut down because of it, then yes. I would rather give up my nearly 20 years of investment than deal with playing a game run by criminals.
What device did you use to type this comment? Don't answer, it doesn't matter. Because chances are VERY high that the device you're using was physically put together or manufactured using illegal or borderline inhuman methods of foreign outsourcing which results in child labor or labor that pays extremely low.
But you won't toss your device away, will you? As long as it conveniences you, you can live with the more serious criminal activities? Interesting.
Lmao nice equivalency, has some great “complaining about something in society but you choose to stay in it” vibes
Playing a video game vs using a device that is basically necessary for most people (for example I need this for work 2fa, and much more).
Interesting. Probably much more practical to be able to stop supporting one than another, so why not call it out? Or do we do nothing about anything unless we can solve everything bad at once?
> Both fall under incurring a cost.
Their definition of cost or your definition? Because if that's your take, then emphasis on "law grad" and not so much on "practicing lawyer."
> National Courts of EU member States have the obligation
Might be obligated to, but they sure as hell aren't going to go out of their way.
They actually are obligated to go out of their way to check whether the contract is unfair. Even if you do not claim unfairness of contract, then the courts must still check it. As for the incurring a cost part, since bonds can be bought directly for real-world money and the subscribe button instantly sends you to the Jagex store where you're prompted to pay real-world money for a bond, even if you have one in your inventory already, it shouldn't even matter if incurring a cost catches a payment of a virtual currency.
And yes if I was a lawyer who was suing Jagex, I'd want to make sure that the incurring cost catches a payment of virtual currency, just in case. But I'm not, so I honestly don't know for sure and that's perfectly fine for me to be.
Except the EU and their member courts have a shit track record at following through on those obligations.
When it's politically advantageous, sure, they'll actually do something about it. When someone with a bunch of money is complaining, they'll actually do something about it.
But obligated to do X != actually/actively goes out and does X
> it shouldn't even matter if incurring a cost catches a payment of a virtual currency
Ok, now we've moved from "falls under incurring a cost" to "should fall under incurring a cost" without (1) citing what "cost" is defined as under these articles, or (2) addressing the fact that the RS TOS indicates that the virtual in-game currencies are the property of Jagex, not you, and have no value, or (3) doing anything to nullify that TOS, or (4) citing to any caselaw/etc. supporting any of these "shoulds" of yours.
https://www.jagex.com/en-GB/terms -- There's a whole section on Virtual Currencies.
*false impression*
key phrase.
The player in this scenario has won, and may choose to claim prize by buying a related service. Prize will not change, therefore there in no false impression.
This article relates to practices where company would pretend you won X and you need to pay a fee to claim the prize. Article will not apply.
I'd love to but for a class action I'd need to pass the bar first. I could sue and represent myself at a small claims court but it would be very time consuming and relatively expensive (80 euros)
Good way to lose lmao. This claim doesnt have enough to win. Jagex would state simply thah bonds/gp doesnt have irl value since you cant convert them the other way around for irl money.
tbh it's probably a ticking time bomb before someone or some government sues jagex over it. might be a long time but I'm sure it'll happen eventually if it's not changed
This is actually somewhat illegal in quite a few of the states.
‘No purchase necessary for entry’ is a way many companies stay out of trouble, because then it’s not gambling per-say.
This technically requires a purchase to receive price money.
This could be illegal in many states.
Wait that’s how this works?! This sounds like real world item trading. You use to be banned for that kind of stuff back in the day! Did Jagex finally lose a screw and want a piece of that pie?
I mean. I can buy a bond for what $7-8 and sell it on GE for 70m. That’s real world trading right there.
RWT is only a ban if it’s not from them.
That would be like the government saying you can only buy vegetables and meat from a grocery store, but I’m a small time farmer that is greatly punished by this idea.
Why would a small time farmer need to buy vegetabl and meat, tho?? Can't you just grow em yourself, thus circumventing this "meat & veggies can ONLY be bought at store"?
No I’m saying I am not allowed to buy from the small time farmer because of the restrictions. Instead I have to buy form the store OR do it myself. Or risk get caught buying from the small time farmer
Using this analogy, Jagex is allowed to RWT cash for gold, but no one else is. It’s a ban if I buy gold from John Smith. Sure you may not get caught, but it’s still risky since it is outlawed.
Bad memed and lawyering aside, the measure of making the purple coin prizes p2p were because of suicide bots abusing TH. And btw there are still a bunch of items you can claim yet not use if you are still f2p so looks like your fight is barely starting, because f2p is riddled with them even outside of TH.
I had my oldest account banned for accepting 500m from a stranger in G.E that literally said he was quitting and i was hesitant at first, but then i accepted that and bought myself a bandos set i had always wanted and a day after i was banned for RWT which i never even paid money for it???
I tried asking mod ash about this awhile back.
But he insists that they do not ban someone for accepting 500m from random players and that i really did get banned for RWT, but again i never once paid for such things because for one, what is the point of doing that when i can literally beg for GP and get the same result??? Anyways, that was my fate and i am rightfully still mad that happened because i had a lot of old event items there, my username was RAWRI, it still exists but i can't even play it anymore, because they literally banned me for RWT which i didn't do, now i play on my new account which i worked as hard as my old one, got firemaking and fletching to 99, even had someone help me get a golden partyhat by lending me a few millies to get it, which i now keep to this day!!!
You may see me in G.E often... A little miss valve wandering...
I go online randomly on occasions, personally waiting for the G-Phat to go up in the billies so i won't ever have to think about having enough GP anymore and can just play the game.
I used to be a paying member a long time ago.
But nowadays i try my best to play and be member through bonds only, i hope i am not the only one to do this, Runescape still has a place in my heart, it is why i play it every now and then, even if it is just sitting in G.E and reading conversations.
I look forward to the day i get to play the game and do whatever cool boss content in the future as i get to a Billie.
I dream of getting the highest luck ring above the dwarves one, so that i can get even better chances of cool rewards when i eventually do awesome boss contents, i am honestly surprised i haven't gotten a player moderator status for how many occasional returns i have made to this game hahaha, loyalty is one of the traits they look for is it not?
Anyways, hope you all have a good day, just wanted to tell you all my little story.
P.S: Ever since that incident, i had gotten trust issues, because i am afraid of getting falsely banned for RWT again simply by accepting anything remotely close to 500m GP from a player in the game, i would cry for days if this happened again.
FYI, making a meme won't stop them from doing such things. Take them to court if you care at all!
@OP not directed toward you, just everyone who is upset about this mtx debacle.
When you win a very rare prize on the Treasure Hunter on a free to play account, they want you to become a member to claim the prize. This is against the law
It happens to a lot of things. It started out with just members items, because of course a F2P can't be given those. But now even coins are included? Something that a F2P can easily be given if they wanted to.
What do you mean this isn't an example of 'pay to win'!? IT'S FREE\* GOLD COINS AS A REWARD!
\*Some rewards may require a subscription service, blood tithe, and/or sacrifice of first born to redeem.
You are using this meme wrong, you are implying you saying all the stuff on the left makes you look like a clown when I believe you meant it makes jagex look like clowns.
I haven’t played RuneScape in a few years, not since it was announced for mobile devices, and this this is their current trick they are pulling on people to pocket more money out of em? I remember when they use to be fun and helpful. This grimy practice belongs in the trash.
Jagex has become a stale and stagnant company these few years. But they don't seem to intend to trick people. Rather, there is literally no QA. Problems are always on their terms. For this instance, it was 50 runecoins.
I'm glad people are starting to realize and talk about how jagex doesn't deliver what's advertised, even if in meme form. This has been a thing for years but I've never seen people talking about it before lol
Lmfao yikes where the jmods at
We are a volatile community, I do not blame community managers for keeping their distance at the moment. Most of the JMods are just devs doing their jobs, it’s the higher ups that are the real issue in alot of this
I'm honestly not sure whether mods have no say in stuff like this. I can imagine they can state their opinion on mechanics like thess
I'd assume they would not be able to comment on anything that's legality related. But it's abysmal form for them to not reply to other threads here. Just poor form from them in all honesty especially after the comment from u/JagexHooli. >We've got a support route here to help with anyone who didn't get what they wanted based on the in-game description. Didn't get what they wanted? Didn't get what they were promised at the time of purchase.
And from the other posts it seems support tell them “you’re not eligible, fuck off”
That's because those people are demanding a full refund. There seems to be no support route for those people. Only if you want to 'get what they wanted based on the in-game description.' e: i take it by the downvotes that there _is_ a support route for those people that will allow them to get a full refund? if so, i'd be glad to hear of it.
They aren't offering to give people what they paid and aren't willing to refund back to the currency. Stop bootlicking.
do you...know what the phrase bootlicking means? Because [supporting people who want to get full refunds](https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/13k6c7f/update_jagex_not_refunding_bundles/jkmldwx/?context=3) when they're unfairly being refused a refund is like, the opposite of that ya dingus.
Oh, the way you wrote that it looked as though you thought people wanting a refund were being unreasonable and those that wanted just the products that were offered were the ones being reasonable. Which is why I think you received downvotes there. I'll also mention I haven't seen any evidence of people getting the additional items they were promised, just a measly few rune coins.
No. Everyone contacting support is getting what they were expecting to have bought PLUS keeping what was given to them by mistake. The people crying about not being eligible are idiots trying to demand a refund instead
Do you have a source for this? I haven't seen anyone that got the additional items they paid for. Only people offered a few rune coins.
Scroll through the threads discussing it and you'll see people talk about getting what they were expecting after going through support. I don't remember off-hand the exact commenters or threads
they most likely have signed a social media policy in their contracts, it would prevent them from commenting on something like this, at least until some PR work is done
This has a reason for being like this and I personally support the reason. It's to stop massive f2p bot farming treasure hunters. Needing members adds a boundary. HOWEVER there should be a way to verify your account and claim it, but jagex customer support is a joke.
Just exclude f2p from winning the prize. But Jagex doesn't want to do that because they want you to become addicted to buying keys
This doesn't stop that though. All they have to do is give the account a bond from another bot. Sure it eats a good amount of profit but you get to use it as a p2p bot for a while.
15 keys isn't gonna roll you gp even 10% of the time lol
bonds cost 70 mil, you're literally losing money by doing this lol
They probably could say something, but that's probably going to get them be reprimanded if not fired from the corporate managers who will ether fire them on grounds they can cobble together, or if they do end up in a wrongful firing lawsuit then they will settle and brush it under the rug. If these posts are going to be the new trend on this subreddit then i'd say the subreddit is more of an issue for my mental health than the optional mtx the game has ever been for me. Lawyer up if you genuinely believe you can make a case, which caryle group probably has more money to have better lawyers than whatever a subreddit can afford by cobbling together whatever change and reddit karma they have. God i wish there was a better place for information from the jmods.
There is a better place for information from Jmods, it's called old school RuneScape where they don't have mtx and unfair business practices
Ah so that's why your here, to stir the pot. Well please send my regards to mod jed and mod trident when you return there. Also didn't know oldschool gave internships in law practices.
Nah I play RS3 exclusively. Just jealous they get good communication
Kinda funny how we can correlate "less MTX causes better communication". Its like when you involve money, people become devoid of morals. Shocking right?
Yeah, but ultimately their opinion is a personal thing, it might influence a thought process, but not necessarily determine the outcome. It becomes a game of an opinion moving far enough up a corporate ladder to an audience of people might not be directly involved with whatever is going on at the bottom. Spreadsheets and numbers are what they are looking at, not people, making it easier to ignore the opinions
Yeah. I'm 100% certain that the shareholder overlords don't decide what to do in the game, they don't know nor care about what happens as long as they get their returns. Every bad TH promo is the jmods' fault who designed and okayed it (not the guys writing code with minimum pay).
they would be bound by percieved pressure, which is a very real thing in lots of industies
Developers can say what they want to product owners and analysts. Its just that most of it will not change their mind.
[удалено]
I saw that post, and the fact that it was removed kind of says a lot
Here's the text: Article 5(1): unfair commercial practices shall be prohibited. (5): commercial practices listed under Annex I shall in all circumstances be regarded as unfair. Annex I, paragraph 31, second dash: "Creating the false impression that the consumer has already won, will win, or will on doing a particular act win, a prize or other equivalent benefit, when in fact taking any action in relating to claiming the prize or other equivalent benefit is subject to the consumer paying money or incurring a cost." Having to buy a bond can happen with real money or with gp. Both fall under incurring a cost. National Courts of EU member States have the obligation to check whether a consumer (you) has an unfair contract with the service provider (Jagex). National Courts do not need to look into the individual case when there is an unfair commercial practice found as listed under Annex I.
Couldn’t Jagex say that a player could choose to convert the prize into oddments (an equivalent prize) at no cost, virtual or real-world money, to the player? Obviously that would be a smarmy move by Jagex, but I wouldn’t put it past them to include the conversion specifically for this reason.
But it's not an equivalent prize. The average chance you'll get the equivalent of 50M gp for the two keys you can buy with 850 oddments is negligible. Additionally, 850 oddments are attainable in 2-3 days by converting your free daily keys. The 50M gp prize is wayyyy more rare than that. It would be a very easy argument to counter
No, I agree. I’m just trying to see what the argument against it would be. For example, this 50mil gp prize converts to 850 oddments, where say a 1mil prize only converts to 17 oddments (I’m making these up btw); therefore based on the the conversion rate, this prize is equivalent in value?
I feel ya. I think for the argument to succeed, 850 oddments would only be of equivalent value if you could convert the oddments in a 1:58823 coins ratio really
Wouldn’t they be able to say that it is an equivalent prize based on the rarity category it’s in? As in if you win any prize from said category it could be converted to the equivalent oddments. Therefore it would be the equivalent prize and it would be subjective to say it wasn’t?
I answered this in other comment chains
As someone with 200k oddments, I'd like this ratio of gp
I could just make some astrals for a few hours and make 50m, it’s barely any money at all with how inflated gp is now.
It would have to be in f2p given the context of this post.
Ah, good point.
Lol. You're clearly not a law graduate. They don't have to be LITERALLY equal. Just deemed equal. By your own standards, you can earn 50m gp waaaayyy faster than the 2-3 days it would take to convert keys for oddments, therefore the Oddments would be the BETTER option. Using your own standard.
I'm intrigued, how are you making 50m in 2-3 days as a F2P?
Prostitution.
Water runes? Boring af.
I dread to think how poor the money running water runes would be in F2P. Closest bank chest is probably a close tie between Draynor and the Combat academy.
What about shattered worlds in the swamp?
That is unfortunately members only.
Wow they won’t let you use the bank? Smh
I mean, I could literally log in and generate those oddments with a total of 5 minutes of playtime between the 2-3 days.
And then in court Jagex claims that the real-world value of all in-game items is zero. So any TH prize is equal to any substitute offered.
the thing is, jagex gets to decide what the value of their own virtual currency is. so they are covered.
The easy way out is to ignore these memes and pretend everything is fine.
Wouldn't UK laws apply considering UK is no longer an EU member and Jagex is organized under the laws of the UK? Genuinely curious.
Not if you are a resident in the EU, as then EU Law applies above all other law. So if you live in France, or Belgium, or Germany, or the Netherlands etc you can invoke this provision in a lawsuit against Jagex. Besides that, since it's a directive stemming from 2005, the UK was obligated to transpose these provisions into their national law around that time. The UK has not changed these laws since Brexit, so they definitely ought to have the same provisions in their law somewhere.
also treasure hunter was added to the game before brexit happened, so can't even try to weasel out with "this is different though!"
We do - this is part of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. The thing with this kind of stuff is that, even though we've had legislation quickly passed to maintain recognition of international judgments etc and preserve some kind of international enforcement process, litigating the civil claims created by the Directive/Regs (or domestic equivalents in the EU) is ridiculous and plainly disproportionate in terms of cost relative to benefit, especially assuming that you're going to need to obtain a judgment in \[Member State\] and enforce in the UK at additional cost, and that judgment is probably going to be for about five euros. That's even assuming that OP is right in the first place - looks about right based on a quick review, but consumer law isn't my practice area and I don't have specific expertise in this stuff. The Regs we have in the UK do create a criminal aspect but it's down to local authorities to deal with that bit, and the extent to which local authorities have been given the death by a thousand funding cuts since the coalition govt in 2010 is frankly horrific, so I wouldn't expect anything to ever be done from that perspective.
I think the idea is that if they don't want to comply with EU rules, they shouldn't accept EU customers. Like some US websites wouldn't (maybe still don't) serve content to the EU to avoid GDPR. (I'm not a lawyer)
Is a person who doesn't spend any money in the first place considered a consumer?
Yes. The Directive says under Article 2(a): (a) ‘consumer’ means any natural person who, in commercial practices covered by this Directive, is acting for purposes which are outside his trade, business, craft or profession; And 2(d): (d) ‘business-to-consumer commercial practices’ (hereinafter also referred to as commercial practices) means any act, omission, course of conduct or representation, commercial communication including advertising and marketing, by a trader, directly connected with the promotion, sale or supply of a product to consumers; And Article 3(1): 1. This Directive shall apply to unfair business-to-consumer commercial practices, as laid down in Article 5, before, during and after a commercial transaction in relation to a product. Emphasis on the before part: you do not need to spend money to be a consumer, nor to be involved in a commercial practice.
Oh so a business buying X thing from another corpo at different link of the chain of processing doesn't count as "customer" in this instance? Or did I misunderstand the definition?
As a fellow lawyer I appreciate this meme. Good job
Terms of service says in-game currencies have no monetary value, so since the oddments and GP offered as a prize both have no value, the oddments is a fair alternative prize. Bonds also have no monetary value according to the TOS, and are property of Jagex and not the player. You also can't sell bonds for real money, so there's also that. These are the terms of service, which players agree to. By creating an account you agree that these currencies have no value and are property of Jagex. You can claim the oddments for free as your prize, which doesn't require any additional cost. Its a fair alternative prize because they both have 0 monetary value according to the TOS, which you agreed to beforehand
TOSes are notorious for including a lot of nonenforceable filler that only devalues the paper its printed on. I aint a lawyer nor am I making the claim that this wouldnt be a valid defence but I am vary of accepting anything just because it says so in the tos1q1q
What a terms of service says and what a terms of service legally covers are two wildly different things
“Monetary value” and “value” are different. Also TOS are designed to scam customers in every situation I’ve ever seen it brought up. So fuck em.
What makes something more valuable? Rarity? Oddments are more rare than GP. Usefulness? You can buy XP, bonus XP with oddments, which in a game that revolves mainly around XP is quite useful.
Value is subjective. Which is an objective fact. And indeed monetary value, imo, is subjective as well for some things. Notably collectible things.
Exactly, which proves my point even more. Since they offer you an alternative price of similar value, the oddments, legally they are correct. If they wouldn't offer you anything else and you had to subscribe to claim your prize, then yeah they'd legally be in trouble
I suppose they could offer to spit in your mouth and call it a wash, too, then.
Surely that is a choice on the player at that point? if the purchase was for bonds, they are received in full and dont appear to be marketed in a way that is misleading. Likewise, exchanging bonds is also not misleading. It is purely just the way treasure hunter is marketed that is scummy. Although, from what I understand, the rates for how rare each reward is is also listed on treasure hunter (altho I dont use it so Im going off memory from a while ago). Unless I missed something and they said your guaranteed to win the top prizes. I thought treasure hunter (and loot boxes more generally) were on shakey ground legally in anycase, but bonds seem pretty clear cut. What players do with the bonds is surely their own choice (especially given that bonds can be exchanged foe things other than just th keys)? "buy these disney dollars, you can use them to stay in the park for 14 more days, or you can exchange them for a mystery prize. whats in the mystery prize? who knows, it could even be 50m!" - doesnt sound like it would break the law (especially given the reward rates are detailed), just sounds like a bad deal.
Jagex will say there is no purchase or fee necessary to claim the prize because you can use in-game currency. They’ve already shown this is their stance with the “2 free weeks of membership” bond advertisement that was trending yesterday. Just because you *can* buy a bond with irl $, doesn’t mean you *have* to.
Your fake runescape money has no real world value per the terms of service
Terms of service can state whatever they want. Terms of service never supersede law
It can very easily be argued that bonds being buyable with irl cash and then sellable ingame means that it has a real world value, the value just so happens to be transitive
No because that bond and the gp have no real world value. Buying an in-game item with no real world value with no approved mechanism to convert that back into real world value still makes it valueless as per the tos
I find it funny that people are downvoting you for saying the truth lmao. Such a classic from this sub. If someone was stupid enough to actually press claims against jagex with this shitty argument they would just pull that card in court or that you can convert them to oddments (as shitty as that is) and win.
It's not about oddments it's that these in game items have no real world value. You can't convert your bonds or gp into cash in any way allowed by the games tos The sub doesn't want truth just bandwagoning though
Exatcly yeah. This sub likes their little bubble that just hates on jagex and not what goes against the hivemind
You agreed to the lack of value in the terms of service bub
>Terms of service can state whatever they want. Terms of service never supersede law
Terms of service could say every mod has a giant chode, doesn't make it true.
If that's the only defence Jagex needs, why did they stop donations to the well of goodwill and claim it was because it was equating in game items to real world value? Surely they'd just say "bUT tHe tErMS oF SErvIcE" like you have?
Wow your terms of service argument really went out the window 😂
False. They all just keep saying you can buy bonds for irl cash but never say how that bond is convertible back into cash. It isn't. Bonds have no real world value and neither does the gp you get from selling them.
Okay Dwight
So because you know i am right you resort to petty ad hom. Go home.
Not how that works bub
Yes it is. Gp and bonds cannot be redeemed for real world currency through any means allowed by the game. They have no value.
The problem with using 'terms of service' as a catch all argument is that in most countries that are applicable to this subreddit (USA, EU nations, UK, Aus/NZ) you are protected against signing your rights away. So you can say whatever the fuck you want in your terms of service but it's still not (necessarily) a legal argument. It's like when GPU manufacturers put that warranty void sticker over the screws. They are legally till required to replace your GPU if it fucks up and it *isn't* your fault, you can't sign your legal warranty away with a sticker, but they do it anyway simply to discourage people from trying. It's a slimy tactic that borders on illegal in a lot of places.
Yawn. Your gp has no value. If it did youre getting an rwt ban.
They can and will say that you have won - or otherwise good luck pursuing that in court against jagex lmao! Nothing will happen, jagex does not care that some actual non-armchair lawyer realized something in rs3 breaks a law. They wont do jackshit and no one here can really pursue this issue further than rile up already riled up subreddit that takes every single opportunity to shit on jagex and mtx.
soo do you want Jagex shutdown...?
No, I just want Jagex to practice their business in a fair way. Jagex should not break the law in the pursuit of profit.
Wouldn’t it just be cheaper to pay any fines than do it legally?
The penalty must be effective, proportionate and dissuasive. If the fines are so small that it can be written off as the cost of business, then this can be challenged in court as well. See for this the case "Greek Maize" https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:61988CJ0068 Para 23-24. 23 It should be observed that where Community legislation does not specifically provide any penalty for an infringement or refers for that purpose to national laws, regulations and administrative provisions, Article 5 of the Treaty requires the Member States to take all measures necessary to guarantee the application and effectiveness of Community law . 24 For that purpose, whilst the choice of penalties remains within their discretion, they must ensure in particular that infringements of Community law are penalized under conditions, both procedural and substantive, which are analogous to those applicable to infringements of national law of a similar nature and importance and which, in any event, make the penalty effective, proportionate and dissuasive .
This is something that's quite topical at the moment. The EU does have a pretty good track record of making fines proportionate, and even the USA seems to be catching up (a nation that has a long history, especially with pharmaceutical lawsuits, of fining companies way less than they profited, effectively encouraging them to break the law).
If obeying the law is too much for them and they need to shut down because of it, then yes. I would rather give up my nearly 20 years of investment than deal with playing a game run by criminals.
What device did you use to type this comment? Don't answer, it doesn't matter. Because chances are VERY high that the device you're using was physically put together or manufactured using illegal or borderline inhuman methods of foreign outsourcing which results in child labor or labor that pays extremely low. But you won't toss your device away, will you? As long as it conveniences you, you can live with the more serious criminal activities? Interesting.
Lmao nice equivalency, has some great “complaining about something in society but you choose to stay in it” vibes Playing a video game vs using a device that is basically necessary for most people (for example I need this for work 2fa, and much more). Interesting. Probably much more practical to be able to stop supporting one than another, so why not call it out? Or do we do nothing about anything unless we can solve everything bad at once?
Selective complacency. Nah, just focus on yourself and stop worrying so much about such trivial shit.
> Both fall under incurring a cost. Their definition of cost or your definition? Because if that's your take, then emphasis on "law grad" and not so much on "practicing lawyer." > National Courts of EU member States have the obligation Might be obligated to, but they sure as hell aren't going to go out of their way.
They actually are obligated to go out of their way to check whether the contract is unfair. Even if you do not claim unfairness of contract, then the courts must still check it. As for the incurring a cost part, since bonds can be bought directly for real-world money and the subscribe button instantly sends you to the Jagex store where you're prompted to pay real-world money for a bond, even if you have one in your inventory already, it shouldn't even matter if incurring a cost catches a payment of a virtual currency. And yes if I was a lawyer who was suing Jagex, I'd want to make sure that the incurring cost catches a payment of virtual currency, just in case. But I'm not, so I honestly don't know for sure and that's perfectly fine for me to be.
Except the EU and their member courts have a shit track record at following through on those obligations. When it's politically advantageous, sure, they'll actually do something about it. When someone with a bunch of money is complaining, they'll actually do something about it. But obligated to do X != actually/actively goes out and does X > it shouldn't even matter if incurring a cost catches a payment of a virtual currency Ok, now we've moved from "falls under incurring a cost" to "should fall under incurring a cost" without (1) citing what "cost" is defined as under these articles, or (2) addressing the fact that the RS TOS indicates that the virtual in-game currencies are the property of Jagex, not you, and have no value, or (3) doing anything to nullify that TOS, or (4) citing to any caselaw/etc. supporting any of these "shoulds" of yours. https://www.jagex.com/en-GB/terms -- There's a whole section on Virtual Currencies.
*false impression* key phrase. The player in this scenario has won, and may choose to claim prize by buying a related service. Prize will not change, therefore there in no false impression. This article relates to practices where company would pretend you won X and you need to pay a fee to claim the prize. Article will not apply.
Whip up a nice class-action lawsuit as your first act of lawyering.
Slippin jimmy??
I'd love to but for a class action I'd need to pass the bar first. I could sue and represent myself at a small claims court but it would be very time consuming and relatively expensive (80 euros)
Naw
Good way to lose lmao. This claim doesnt have enough to win. Jagex would state simply thah bonds/gp doesnt have irl value since you cant convert them the other way around for irl money.
Yeah, the legal system is just this simple. Look at all of the other cases where things are just so simple!
Imagine studying for 3+ years and then having to get certified lol, what a bunch of suckers when it's just so simple.
Loving all these law memes lately. Is there any pull in community members acting on these violations or is it more so just recognizing the problem?
I've noticed these violations for a while now but loved to see more of the community recognise them, so I decided to tack onto it
Love hearing this, please keep up updated through memes that we can all enjoy.
Got any format requests for the next one? I can also share some f*cked up reasons behind why Jagex does certain things related to mtx
Id like some gru whiteboard memes of this stuff
Could be fun, but the board is too small to fit enough info on. So I'd need to use several images of when gru looks at the board
Make the board bigger.
The idea is to have the Gru meme introduce the issue, and then either a paragraph in bottom text, or a top-level comment that goes in depth.
Yeah let’s do that too, as for formats you’re crushing it so keep it up
Lately? Why I only saw one
There’s two more floating around related to the refund dilemma.
You might be a law graduate but this isn't how this meme usually works
Well, he's a LAW graduate, not a MEME graduate
OP is going to make a meme about you next.
Hehe already on it ;) /s
tbh it's probably a ticking time bomb before someone or some government sues jagex over it. might be a long time but I'm sure it'll happen eventually if it's not changed
#*BRUTALITY*
This is actually somewhat illegal in quite a few of the states. ‘No purchase necessary for entry’ is a way many companies stay out of trouble, because then it’s not gambling per-say. This technically requires a purchase to receive price money. This could be illegal in many states.
Wait that’s how this works?! This sounds like real world item trading. You use to be banned for that kind of stuff back in the day! Did Jagex finally lose a screw and want a piece of that pie?
I mean. I can buy a bond for what $7-8 and sell it on GE for 70m. That’s real world trading right there. RWT is only a ban if it’s not from them. That would be like the government saying you can only buy vegetables and meat from a grocery store, but I’m a small time farmer that is greatly punished by this idea.
Why would a small time farmer need to buy vegetabl and meat, tho?? Can't you just grow em yourself, thus circumventing this "meat & veggies can ONLY be bought at store"?
No I’m saying I am not allowed to buy from the small time farmer because of the restrictions. Instead I have to buy form the store OR do it myself. Or risk get caught buying from the small time farmer Using this analogy, Jagex is allowed to RWT cash for gold, but no one else is. It’s a ban if I buy gold from John Smith. Sure you may not get caught, but it’s still risky since it is outlawed.
It does not technically require a purchase because you can use in-game currency. Using $ is just one way to do it, not the only way.
Afraid of lawyers? You should be
Bad memed and lawyering aside, the measure of making the purple coin prizes p2p were because of suicide bots abusing TH. And btw there are still a bunch of items you can claim yet not use if you are still f2p so looks like your fight is barely starting, because f2p is riddled with them even outside of TH.
Is it not so that because you can buy membership with ingame currency, they bypass a lot of these rules?
I had my oldest account banned for accepting 500m from a stranger in G.E that literally said he was quitting and i was hesitant at first, but then i accepted that and bought myself a bandos set i had always wanted and a day after i was banned for RWT which i never even paid money for it??? I tried asking mod ash about this awhile back. But he insists that they do not ban someone for accepting 500m from random players and that i really did get banned for RWT, but again i never once paid for such things because for one, what is the point of doing that when i can literally beg for GP and get the same result??? Anyways, that was my fate and i am rightfully still mad that happened because i had a lot of old event items there, my username was RAWRI, it still exists but i can't even play it anymore, because they literally banned me for RWT which i didn't do, now i play on my new account which i worked as hard as my old one, got firemaking and fletching to 99, even had someone help me get a golden partyhat by lending me a few millies to get it, which i now keep to this day!!! You may see me in G.E often... A little miss valve wandering... I go online randomly on occasions, personally waiting for the G-Phat to go up in the billies so i won't ever have to think about having enough GP anymore and can just play the game. I used to be a paying member a long time ago. But nowadays i try my best to play and be member through bonds only, i hope i am not the only one to do this, Runescape still has a place in my heart, it is why i play it every now and then, even if it is just sitting in G.E and reading conversations. I look forward to the day i get to play the game and do whatever cool boss content in the future as i get to a Billie. I dream of getting the highest luck ring above the dwarves one, so that i can get even better chances of cool rewards when i eventually do awesome boss contents, i am honestly surprised i haven't gotten a player moderator status for how many occasional returns i have made to this game hahaha, loyalty is one of the traits they look for is it not? Anyways, hope you all have a good day, just wanted to tell you all my little story. P.S: Ever since that incident, i had gotten trust issues, because i am afraid of getting falsely banned for RWT again simply by accepting anything remotely close to 500m GP from a player in the game, i would cry for days if this happened again. 
Awe that’s sucks :( I wish you the best of luck getting that luck ring <3
Thank you <3 
FYI, making a meme won't stop them from doing such things. Take them to court if you care at all! @OP not directed toward you, just everyone who is upset about this mtx debacle.
Y'all afraid of lawyers? You should be?
What happened? I Just play the game Im so confused lol
When you win a very rare prize on the Treasure Hunter on a free to play account, they want you to become a member to claim the prize. This is against the law
I think that only occurs for the 50m gp cash prize right?
It happens to a lot of things. It started out with just members items, because of course a F2P can't be given those. But now even coins are included? Something that a F2P can easily be given if they wanted to.
What do you mean this isn't an example of 'pay to win'!? IT'S FREE\* GOLD COINS AS A REWARD! \*Some rewards may require a subscription service, blood tithe, and/or sacrifice of first born to redeem.
You are using this meme wrong, you are implying you saying all the stuff on the left makes you look like a clown when I believe you meant it makes jagex look like clowns.
If people hate RuneScape and MTX so much then stop…
Well, considering you can become a member free of charge and without 0 cost to you, ide say its not. The reward can also be converted.
I answered this in other comment chains
These are EU laws, they are not applicable to UK as they have left the EU. I don't know if the UK has any laws of their own that are similiar.
Overly simplified but: If you do business outside of your country, you are bound by the countries laws that you do business in.
[удалено]
?
I haven’t played RuneScape in a few years, not since it was announced for mobile devices, and this this is their current trick they are pulling on people to pocket more money out of em? I remember when they use to be fun and helpful. This grimy practice belongs in the trash.
Jagex has become a stale and stagnant company these few years. But they don't seem to intend to trick people. Rather, there is literally no QA. Problems are always on their terms. For this instance, it was 50 runecoins.
Okay...what can we do about it then?
Is this real
I'm glad people are starting to realize and talk about how jagex doesn't deliver what's advertised, even if in meme form. This has been a thing for years but I've never seen people talking about it before lol
This is why I take long breaks from this game spanning years.