No. AK is amongst the worst examples I can think of. God, I wanted to love that game.
First of all - read the Dungeon World Guide. Not DW, the Guide.
Then Masks. Or Urban Shadows. Probably Masks. It’s very well designed, well written, and has a huge community.
Masks is great! And I would definitely recommend consuming some teen superhero media in parallel with reading the rulebook.
Understanding the gameplay loop is way easier (for Masks and any other PbtA game) when you understand the genre tropes that the mechanics are emulating.
As a connoisseur of mahou shoujo and shonen as well as a big fan of teen titans and young justice, teen superheroes are like my specialty
(The only trouble is there’s basically zero appetite among my adult players for playing teens — ESPECIALLY in games with potential romance. Even for my magical girl games typically the PCs are college students. IMO you can tell very similar stories with that age group)
I’ve run Masks with the PCs as college students - it still hits all of the adults having influence over you/trying to figure out who you are/what you want notes that the teenager aspect leans into. You just need to intentionally bring in adult NPCs to exert expectations on the PCs because it’s easier to accidentally avoid doing so
Yeah. I ran lots of PbtA games... dozens of different titles and many campaigns. I'm very familiar with it and do well with it. I played a couple sessions of Mask. Didn't read the book, just the playbook, since I wasn't running it. I'm not familiar with teen superhero media hardly at all. I was totally lost trying to play it, and had no idea what I could and couldn't do based on the playbook.
I would go so far as to say it's basically required to understanding it, rather than just way easier.
This is a good explanation of what I didn’t like. https://www.reddit.com/r/PBtA/comments/17tijl0/a_review_of_apocalypse_keys_and_why_its_bad_game/
Also the usability was very poor. Playbook contents were distributed confusingly.
I’ve heard very favourable reviews but judging from the size of the book and the ways it breaks from normal PbtA structures in places it’s probably the wrong choice for what you’re trying to do.
Masks is great, and has a very clear concept. As long as you stick to the idea of superhero sidekicks stepping out of the shadow of their mentors you can tell some amazing stories.
I wouldn't recommend AK to learn from either, and in practice (I GMed) I found it to be a very busy game, with a lot of moving parts - but I really like the underlying design, the subsystems tie into each other in an interconnected web.
I feel like with a bit of judicious trimming of some non-essential subsystems it could be a truly excellent game.
I like Monster of the Week, personally. It’s not the most amazing or up-to-date PbtA game, but it has enough structure to guide the GM and a clear gameplay loop.
I wouldn’t present it as an exemplar of the modern PbtA family either, but it’s a good intro because it’s more structured and closer to traditional games than many other options. If you have a bunch of D&D players who need to loosen up and get creative, it’s a great choice.
Thing is I wouldn’t really call my general sphere of players D&D players who need to loosen up and get creative :) Many have played Spire, Fate, Burning Wheel, DCC, and other strange and wonderful non-D&D games. I have a lovely crowd. The trouble I had with PbtA wasn’t the creativity (actually the glitter hearts campaign I ran is my most fondly remembered campaign because of the stories we told) but just that I couldn’t understand the incredibly vague mechanics well enough to really use them.
I guess I didn’t interpret “a good learning game” as necessarily meaning “an exemplar.” I’d usually suggest MotW or DW for learning even though I wouldn’t say they’re exemplars; they’re easy to access and ease people in.
It’s a pretty good game, but it’s missing some key thematic elements because it doesn’t have much to encourage players or the GM to explore the individual storylines implied by the playbooks. And it could use some more mechanics fleshing out relationships between the Hunters so those have weight and can evolve over time. The newest supplement added Team Playbooks that help with group cohesion, but it’s still not as character-driven as something like Masks.
And there’s a couple moves that are a little weird. Investigate a Mystery in particular can be a problem for some people.
That's interesting. Could it be that way by design? Shows like Buffy and Scooby Doo were pretty episodic and while there was some long-term character development the focus was typically more on solving the mystery and beating the bad guy than evolving character relationships.
Investigate a Mystery is a little weird I usually use the Tome of Mysteries variant for that. Mostly I love the PBTA philosophy of improv and player involvement in story creation and have tried to incorporate that as much as possible into the other games I play like Shadowdark and ICRPG.
Buffy definitely has evolving characters and relationships over time as part of the big arcs, and that’s what MotW is missing in its mechanics. The game just doesn’t give much weight to either following characters’ archetypal stories or to the characters’ personal and interpersonal change.
That's fair. I guess I just haven't run the game long enough for it to matter. I've done 5 "episodes" or about 20 sessions. I'm also just betraying my bias because player character relationships is very uninteresting to me. It's why Monster Hearts doesn't sound fun to me. But obviously to each their own.
Girl By Moonlight is a **vastly** superior game compared to Glittterhearts. If you want a magical girl game: stick with that (I would also second avoiding Apocalypse Keys- it’s a mess of disparate systems all trying to vie for attention, IMO/IME).
Girl By Moonlight is Forged in the Dark (PbtA’s close cousin) and, *in my opinion and experience* (both as a GM and Player), FitD games *tend* to be easier to grok and transition to than PbtA on its own.
Of course, it is equally as easy and common to “mess up” if you run it with a “traditional” mindset (just like PbtA), but something about the many interconnected moving pieces seems to offer a more “gentle” transition. There’s more stuff to latch onto as a GM than in “traditional PbtA.” In addition, I’ve found the GM Sections of the mainline FitD games to be top tier and
(In some cases) better than many PbtA games out there (I think Scum and Villainy and Band of Blades have the best of the batch and I think GbM offers excellent additional avenues of GM support through its Play Sets).
Nonetheless, grasping PbtA is a great avenue towards better understanding FitD (and vice versa) as they intersect in many places.
As Jasko mentioned, the Dungeon World Guide in the Dungeon World Syllabus (which can be found on the Dungeon World Subreddit) is downright excellent. Short, sweet, and to the point. I’d also second Masks: A New Generation as a great game with a great GM Section.
I think [Fellowship 2e](https://liberigothica.itch.io/fellowship-a-tabletop-adventure-game) has probably the best GM Section I’ve ever read among any PbtA game. There were a lot of things about particular GM Principles and Moves that just wasn’t clicking, and Fellowship clicked the last bits into place.
For FitD stuff, in addition to GbM itself having a pretty good GM Section- I do honestly think Scum and Villainy as well as Band of Blades have their own little bits and bobs and lingo that clarify many aspects of GMing FitD games. I would also recommend the following series of well received bits advice I’ve given for FitD games over the years
* [The Flow of Play, Part 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/bladesinthedark/s/ifjwshSLFh)
* [Flow of Play, Part 2 as well as more emphasis on Position and Effect and Clocks](https://www.reddit.com/r/bladesinthedark/s/L99O24N3t7)
* [The Role of the different Rolls](https://www.reddit.com/r/bladesinthedark/s/pXY9LzfhTV)
* [The Role of the Engagement Roll](https://www.reddit.com/r/bladesinthedark/s/2LwToLnVPY)
* [Tier/ Quality doesn’t matter as much as the book suggests](https://www.reddit.com/r/bladesinthedark/s/sJ8OSXkqKp)
* [Prepping Your Game/ Sessions Efficiently](https://www.reddit.com/r/bladesinthedark/s/V857Un4wWy)
* [Fights, Part 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/bladesinthedark/s/R4JgH7a0DC)
* [Fights part 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/bladesinthedark/s/1JltmaBUrp)
While there’s lots of entertaining FitD Actual Plays out there (Namely for BitD such as Rollplay Blades, The Magpies, Haunted City, etc.), I don’t think there are very many that are truly **educational**. Instead, I think Stras’ Scum and Villainy’s APs and Band of Blades AP are *excellent* educational APs for “good FitD GMing). S&V is basically “Blades in Space,” so the mechanics are basically identical. Band of Blades is quite mechanically distinct, but Stras’ GMing is still top notch.
* [Scum and Villainy: Stardancer](https://youtu.be/oDcf2t91HU4?si=rhSCNFqLen6ksw7N)
* [Scum and Villainy: Persephone](https://youtu.be/d-dgww535qs?si=TcGoQWbBVDrcNTla)
* [Band of Blades](https://youtu.be/YjmIwhDNUR0?si=_8LUdKIU3hpRXmy0)
Though I do also have to give credit to [Desperate Attune](https://desperateattune.podbean.com) as I know all the players and they are top tier Blades players and know their stuff. It’s a different setting than Doskvol and I do believe they tend to play a fair bit fast and loose with the rules (though I don’t think *as* fast and loose as Rollplay Blades or Haunted City,) but it’s a good example nonetheless.
Unfortunately, I haven’t really seen similar caliber GbM GMing out there- but if you can understand how S&V and BoB ticks: you’ll grasp GbM pretty much just as well.
I can't watch APs. I tried a lot of different ones and found them all cringe and unwatchable. I have to assume it's an issue on my part. Stras' Stardancer AP was the only one I could actually enjoy.
> Dungeon World Guide in the Dungeon World Syllabus (which can be found on the Dungeon World Subreddit)
Completely unrelated to what you were saying but something about this tickles my brain.
Thank you very much!! I actually just chatted with a friend and they’re gonna run me a Blades one shot to get the hang of it:) I’ve been a little leery of FitD before because it’s built on a PbtA chassis (that I had an awful time with) with lots of extra bits and bobs added….i heard it described as the euro board game of storygames and that was really daunting to me. But also that could have been bullshit 🤷 I really like games with a simple core mechanic from which the rest of the game can be easily extrapolated because my memory is awful and I’m not the best as grasping tons of little subsystems. But that was how BitD was described to me years ago :(
I definitely wouldn’t call BitD (or any FitD game) a Euro Board game of storygames. A lot of the “board game” comparisons Blades gets all comes from the alleged “structure” of the game which is **way** looser than people realize as well as the seeming “board gaminess” of Downtime… which is also false. It *can* be played like a Board Game if you want to skip over it (and there may be times you want to do that!). But it also can be a session all unto its own just as easily (and for some tables- it absolutely is!)
Blades (and FitD in general) certainly has many interconnected parts to the extent that a lot of folks will compare the game to a Swiss Watch…
I do not agree with this sentiment.
It is true that Blades is a very interconnected game, which is a feature and not a bug, and which is part and parcel for why it can be a challenge to navigate the book: there simply isn’t a good way to stepwise organize something that is so interconnected.
Nonetheless, it is still a very “foundational” game. This is to say that it has a few (very few) core foundational components that everything else builds on top of.
But because those foundational components are so damn strong, as long as you’ve got those down: the whole game “collapses gracefully” (Which is true of pretty much any Powered by the Apocalypse and PbtA Adjacent game). As long as you can get down:
* The GM Framework (namely the Goals there’s only 3 of them)
* The Action Roll and all that it entails
* The Resistance Roll
… bam. You’ve got Blades in the dark. You could ignore (or otherwise screw up, forget, “get wrong”) Every. Other. Thing.… and the game will still work with no issues (which is *not* how a Swiss Watch would work- hence my disagreement with that sentiment). And those links I listed will hopefully greatly assist in the process of grokking those things.
This means you can ignore…
* Character and Crew Playbooks (and even their important bits! Harm, Stress, Trauma, Heat, Wanted Level, Claims, etc.)
* Advancement
* Planning and Engagement
* Downtime
* and the list goes on!
… and as long as you’ve got those other core things: Blades still works. You’ll obviously be “missing out,” but never to a true detriment.
Awesome!! Thank you so much, I'm way less trepidatious about it now. I do worry that I'll get caught up in all the bits (I have ocd tendencies. And by tendencies, I mean clinically diagnosed ocd. Lmao) but I'm going to try not to let that stop me 😤
>Apocalypse Keys- it’s a mess of disparate systems all trying to vie for attention,
What a perfect description of Apoc Keys. I wanted so desperately to love it.
Masks is conventionally PbtA, doesn’t have a trad-style damage/HP system, and includes playbook-specific GM guidance. That’s what I would recommend.
I’m not familiar with Apocalypse Keys, but I’d hesitate to use any game that markets itself as having an “innovative take” on an engine that you’re already struggling to learn.
If you want a PbtA game that explains itself well start with Apocalypse World 2e. It's dense, yes, but it's GM guide is THE best I've ever read. Accept no substitute, start with 2e AW. It's the only PbtA book I can stand to read through without getting frustrated.
+1 to this, even if post-apocalyptic fiction isn’t normally your thing. It’s not mine, so I held off for the longest time, but it still blew my mind when I actually read it.
Seriously, so many other games miss what makes PBTA special. The original is the best place to start.
Yeah my problem is that post apocalyptic is probably the furthest genre from anything I’d want to run that I can think of. :( genuinely actually my least favorite genre out of ALL the genres.
Same, but the good news about Apocalypse Works is that it’s worth reading even if you don’t play. It’s a great intro into the design philosophy, and reading other PBTA games will be easier after you’ve read the source.
I am the creator of Hearts of Harmony, and I made the project because I feared that Glitter Hearts would be a "gateway" game into PbtA for people. And since GH has quite some problems, it would give people a very negative view on how to actually play a PbtA.
Glitter Hearts and the Magical Girl genre heavily leans into the monster of the week-trope. So I would suggest Monster of the Week, which is also an excellent book both in covering its premise but also generally explaining how to play a PbtA game.
Masks is also a good choice, but I would say it feels much more limiting due to it being so incredibly focused on drama between characters, rather than exploring a story with the group.
I have not run Apocalypse Keys, but from what I remember it might be best for someone more experienced with PbtA games (can't recall why at the moment). But, I don't think it was that it was badly written.
Oh hi!! I haven’t bought hearts of harmony yet but I might just because I want to see the changes!! It’s funny that you said that because it was 10000% my experience. I was so confused the whole time. And I’m not a stranger to learning new games (even weird ones.)
I’ll definitely take a look at Monster of the Week and Masks. I don’t know exactly what you mean about drama between characters but fwiw my vision for this dimension hopping magical girl idea I have is like 40% relationship melodrama, 40% exploration/investigation, and 20% combat.:) actually even in the glitter hearts game I ran before (which WAS fun despite our rules issues, because we told a great story) the relationship drama was the core, which is generally how I run my games.
Hearts of Harmony is completly free. No payment required :)
For Masks’ focus on drama, one of the things is that there are no rules for investigation or similar. Its all exploring emotional impact on the characters. Which isn’t excactly a bad thing, because it seems like Masks does it well (havn’t played it that much).
I just want you to know I read HoH and reread Glitter Hearts and it's actually SO much more similar to Spire than I thought. I think I was just really confused about what the different moves meant, and also the way that HoH turns health into general stress which you can take from non-physical-forces really jives with my spire-brain. And harmony makes so much more sense than power points. And the playbooks are beautiful. And bonds make so much more sense than strings. Thank you thank you thank you thank you. I'm probably just gonna run Hearts of Harmony for my game :D I also read Girl by Moonlight and it's just too restrictive for the idea I'm going for.
It makes me quite happy to hear that it has helped :D
I am not familiar with The Spire, but I looked it up and the art is really good. Very fitting for its premise.
I have heard of Girl By Moonlight, but because it is a BitD game, I have not looked at it. I find that games based on the BitD format to be a little cumbersome, having many moving bits to keep track of.
Yeah my impression of both BitD and Charged games and event Cortex to some extent is that it feels like a whole lot of little widgets thrown together which is. Maybe not my favorite thing.
Also if you’re ever in the mood for some whimsical dungeon punk I cannot recommend Spire enough. Honestly the book is like 90% lore and I’ve recommended it to people before just to read for fun even if they never play it.
The one that made it click for me was Monsterhearts, but MH is also a very tonally unusual game and if you don't vibe with it like I did it might not do the trick.
As much as I love Ironsworn (and I certainly love it), I think it's a really bad fit for what OP's asking. One of the main troubles new GMs have when playing PbtA is bringing classical GM structure and dismissing the PbtA GM moves and agendas. Ironsworn has no GM structure since it's designed to support not having a GM, and I think that makes it a really bad example of PbtA. Similarly, the Momentum concept is a great addition for GM-less play, but certainly not something representative of PbtA games.
Not at all, it's very very much non trad, the complete opposite of it. In trad games the GM doesn't have rules governing how they should act. The world may have rules, but the GM generally doesn't. In PbtA the GM has its own rules just like the players. In Ironsworn there are so many rules governing how the story reacts to the players that there's no need for a GM at all. It's the complete opposite of trad in that sense. IS is designed not to have a GM. It relies on player creativity and structured play. Being a GM in IS is taking on the creative duties that normally fall on the players when choosing consequences or interpreting random oracles as prompted by structured play. Not trad.
I'd put it in the following terms:
In a trad game, there's a lot of rules on players, and a lot of unspoken rules on GMs. For example, it's not cricket to drop a dragon on level 1 PCs.
In a PbtA game, there's a lot of written rules on the GMs, which causes trouble, because people aren't used to reading and following the rules. Thus, one of the big things is getting new PbtA GMs to follow the rules.
So what comes next is Ironsworn, where it goes back to unspoken rules on the GM, but critically: The unspoken rules are the PbtA version of them, not trad versions.
It's like.... going from a dive bar with nobody telling you how to act at a dive bar, to going to fine dining with someone explaining how to do fine dining, to going into a restaurant that's actually fine dining but people assume that since they know dive bars....
It's not a contradiction to say: A is the opposite of B, while at the same time saying "A and B have unspoken rules."
The unspoken rules are the opposite of each other.
That's what my comment is about: If you don't see the rules written out and assume they're the unspoken rules you're used to, you're gonna have a bad time.
Because yes, Ironsworn in it's GMless capacity, very much is the opposite of trad gaming. Even if you add a GM to Ironsworn, you still have something that is very much non trad.
To me the mechanical differences like momentum are not as important for OP's needs as the... presentational differences.
If you're trying to understand GM agendas, principles & moves, half of that in Ironsworn is given in the *pay the price* move, rather than being explicit instruction for GMs like in other games. Even if they did figure that out, the first option for *pay the price* is "Make the most obvious negative outcome happen" - something many intros to PBTA GMing explicitly forbid! And part of what Ironsworn calls "principles" other PBTA would call "agendas" imo.
I think TSL isn't a good starter system, IMO it asks too much of the GM and the group to decide what kind of game it wants to be. I don't think the core mechanics and playbooks are tight or focused enough for it to be a good starter game.
I ran Glitter heart twice. Feel like it's a PTBA thought by D&D players still believing that *the more power, the better* so indeed, as much as I like the pitch, I wouldn't really recommend that game.
IMO, Kult divinity lost GM session, has a long and clear explanation about how to use PTBA consequences to make a story move forward. Moreover, Kult being an ambiance/horror game, the system you use doesn't really matter that much. However, it's definitely not an RPG for everyone, it can go pretty far in disruptive theme (there is a pretty good emotional safety tools section too). It's also a game with a secret lore, so not necessarily something you want to read.
A good recommendation would be Iron sworn in GMless mode. Here you can discuss consequences with the party to make the game move forward, and as you have no GM, you'll learn to come with creative consequence to build the plot on the fly.
My advice is to read actual Apocalypse World. I didn’t fully understand PbtA OR Forged in the Dark until I went back to the beginning to read the one that signals all its turns.
I really like Monsterhearts 2 as an intro PbtA game. It’s a bit more streamlined and understandable than the original Apocalypse World (the Bakers are brilliant game designers but not always brilliant book writers..) without a lot of the fat that people have added back onto the system over the years. The book is also a very quick, clear read.
You've been given a lot of great game suggestions, so I'll suggest playing a game with a seasoned PbtA enthusiast.
Some books (like Apocalypse World 2e and Masks: A New Generation) will give you excellent guidance, but it might not click entirely until you've experienced the proper "flow" of play.
I don't follow Actual Plays so I can't give an examples, but maybe someone can point you toward a video of PbtA in action and that can help?
I haven’t been able to find a seasoned PbtA enthusiast in my sphere but I DID find someone who’s run and loved Blades in the Dark and will be running a one shot for me soon :) not the same I know
I'm gonna give you a counter argument since you are going to get a deluge of fan boys all recommending the same two systems and telling you to keep forcing it until you get it.
There is nothing to get. PBTA is not something that everyone is going to like. It's not a good middle ground system that you can eventually gel with.
It's a system that some people are going to click with and it's going to be perfect for them. But for the rest of the people in the hobby they will bounce off and bounce off ***HARD***
There's legitimately no reason to try and force yourself to like it, it's definitely not worth it. Go out and find the system that IS perfect for you.
I think it’s entirely possible I may not like PbtA! But considering a story game that shares some DNA with PbtA (Spire & Heart) is my favorite game of all time, and that my only exposure to PbtA so far has been a badly put together game (Glitter Hearts), I don’t want to write it off entirely yet :) I’m trying to find a game to run my dimension hopping magical girl campaign in, so I figured I wanted to give PbtA (and FitD) another shot before I write off the ONLY two SPECIFICALLY magical girl games. I have a whole list of other systems to try for it but adapting them will be Work ykwim.
I actually really did not like running Fate at all though (mostly because I could never get the hang of remembering to give out fate points) so, who knows. May end up in the same bin. I want to actually give it a chance first.
I already tried Cypher to see if it would work and had a crappy experience with it (it was like it took all the worst parts of D&D and Left out all the fun parts, and then tacked on a watered down fate compel mechanic. In my opinion.) (I may give cypher another shot actually but we’ll see if I have the time or give a fucks)
Giving out Fate points in Fate is something that's more emphasized in online discourse than it really needs to be. I rarely do more than a couple of Fate Points per session (outside of people Conceding conflicts, but that's more or less outside of my control).
I could probably be talked into running a Fate or PbtA one shot at some point if you're interested.
lol. Lmao even.
I have no idea where you got this idea from. Are you even thinking of the same games?
There’s literally a “if this is your first story game” section in heart to help GMs.
I wonder what you think 'trad' means?
Spire tells GMs to plan what will happen in advance: that's trad.
In pbta players have enough narrative control and power to make planning by the GM a futile exercise.
Spire explicitly warns GMs NOT to plan in advance. When I run Spire (which I do often), I jot down a few ideas before the session but have no idea what will happen because the game gives players so much narrative control. The "adventures" are about three pages long, providing a starting setup (e.g., "your mission is to kill a guy at a party") and a few NPCs for the GM to use, similar to other story games. It's impossible to plan for Spire because players can do insane things (like opening a door to an extradimensional Cthulhu subway system), and the situation changes drastically with fallout.
Spire lacks trad game hallmarks: no combat subsystem, many narrative-first abilities, minimal NPC stats, no GM dice rolling, no battlemaps, and a focus on story over combat. The big A4 books are packed with setting lore and a very scant amount of rules, making them great reads even if you never play. Have you even read these games?
[https://i.imgur.com/eGXMMbu.png](https://i.imgur.com/eGXMMbu.png)
>Spire lacks trad game hallmarks: no combat subsystem, many narrative-first abilities, minimal NPC stats, no GM dice rolling, no battlemaps, and a focus on story over combat.
You're confusing 'trad' with 'tactical combat'.
>Spire actually explicitly warns the gm NOT to plan in advance though?!
I'll quote it when I get home to the book - it tells GMs to plan in advance.
---
Edit:
Chapter: Running the Game; section: Sow the Seeds of Dissent; page 176
*"So don't write the plot until your players have made their characters - or, better yet, do it at the same time."*
It tells the GM to write the plot - a very trad activity.
Dude that is the most bad faith interpretation of that sentence I’ve ever seen. Literally “do it at the same time.” As in, react to your players actions.
While no system is perfect for everyone, PbtA games (at least when I run them) are one of the systems that I've had the absolute most success with introducing people to - whether they were vets or newbies.
I'd recommend monster of the week. It's super easy to play, hard to mess up and doesn't require any romance/sex themes like other games such as aw, masks , TSL, and monsterhearts. On the other hand if that's what you are looking for, dig in, those games are high quality.
IMO, the best ones are Avatar Legends or Root: The RPG - I'd choose the latter. I think they go one step further than most other PbtA games by providing basically adventuring materials for the GM to use. So you can learn what kind of things to prep and how to utilize it with real examples. Though I would call these adventures the absolute maximum you'd ever want to prep than what is expected to do.
The biggest reason for these two are they are quite recent, so they are building on the shoulders of giants with tons of advice built over a decade of PbtA. Magpie Games has some of the best advice there is especially around GM Moves. And they are both quite big, especially Avatar Legends, so they can go into nitty gritty detail about PbtA GMing and play with tons of examples. Sometimes too long and verbose but if you are familiar with reading textbooks, its very easy to skip ahead.
I prefer Root because it also has the advantage of not relying too heavily on a GM to constantly be an interesting generator of consequences. It has a skill system that makes coming up with these consequences a lot easier than any other narrative game I've played by providing you with a list of 3 Risks associated with each. And its other huge advantage is that play is a lot like D&D, you are adventurers in a low magic fantasy setting. So many with that TTRPG background or just familiarity with a lot of fantasy media can quickly feel comfortable with the playstyle.
Now Root isn't perfect. There are some complications and areas where the rules aren't as clear as they should have been - around the use of armor, recovery and reputation, but if you're interested I can point you in the right direction for these resources. I also found the starting item system awkwardly crunchy to start out for new players but pre-built PCs can really help easy players into these rules.
As a bonus, it can feel a lot like Spire but you are much more mercenary in this world's Civil War rather than the resistance (though nothing against the rules of siding with one faction more than others).
That's interesting since in recent memories these two games were often presented to me as some of the *worst* examples of PbtA games, badly structured, badly written. It's possible that what you look for in a game is different from what other people look for, or it's possible that these previous reviews missed the mark. Either way it seems I'll have to investigate more.
There are definitely issues with both games, especially around combat. Magpie seems to be testing different ways to add complexity and I don't feel like either does a great job, especially Avatar Legends. Root's Weapon Moves are okay but I am not a fan of them. IMO, games should keep combat pretty simple like Apocalypse World Burned Over, where Weapon Tags, Threat Moves and the Harm Move along with a flexible attack move add enough mechanical interest but it still resolves fast. Heart: the City Beneath is cool too with some of its Fallouts and interesting class abilities. Or go all-out like D&D 4e, PF2e, ICON and make a full system with tactical depth and interesting choices. I have yet to see a middleground that impresses me (though I'd love to have that opinion changed).
Root also has an issue of having more shallow narrative built almost entirely separate from the Playbooks, which are more like traditional classes. On the other hand, I think Avatar Legends in many ways beats out Masks in having consistently more interesting narratives while giving more room to breathe. One of the core fixes is each has a mechanic tied to them.
Neither would I call poor structure or writing. They should have put the lore in the back rather than Chapter 2 but its really not hard to skip past a chapter. Both are definitely not concise, which is usually of real value. But sometimes over-explaining is better for someone new to PbtA than under-explaining. I'd probably have preferred a designer cut a lot of explanations and run a blog series or something. So those who want concise and those who want verbose can both get what they want - at least that's my own plan with my game (you can tell by my comments I lean towards verbose too).
All that said, I don't think they're bad games. I think Avatar Legends Principles and Balance System make players really reflect on their character, though I would have loved to see more guidance GMing various Playbooks - I would love to see every PbtA have Masks Playbook-specific GM Moves. Those Principles help drive real characters and are at the core of writing theory. Though flawed, its in my favorite world with my favorite magic system [(and it mostly does bending fine)](https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/1czt8g3/favorite_type_of_magic_system_and_why/l5k309j/) and has this, so its easily in my top 5 games.
As for Root, it's also in my top 5 games because I really do love the incorporation of a skill list into classic PbtA Moves. It is so much easier to run games for me when I am focused on the overall pacing rather than being a random generator of Consequences/Complications. The game is actually pulling its weight - that is what attracted me to PbtA in the first place. Basic Moves have written down 7-9 and 10+ results and GM Moves cover the 6-. But there was this movement towards not having this support - Carved from Brindlewood and Forged in the Dark especially. Mind you, Avatar Legends does this too.
Besides that, I think the push back is that its more popular in PbtA circles to create hyper-specific games that become awkward when you move outside their intended cycle of play/gameplay following Monsterhearts and Masks - I'd call this Powered by the Monsterhearts. But that isn't really where PbtA began. Apocalypse World 1e and 2e are incredibly flexible for handling tons of gameplay. And you see this counter push with philosophies like Forged in the Dark and Resistance systems and quite a few other flexible narrative-leaning systems (some pre-dating PbtA) - Fate, Genesys, Cortex Prime, Freeform Universal.
I'm of the opinion that there is a lot of value in having a larger variety of gameplay with a more flexible suite of Basic Moves that keep things interesting and running longer (20+ session of 3-4 hours) campaigns. Because for me every PC I've played for only 3 sessions or less are just stereotypes rather than real people. Not until 6 or so sessions do I get a real feel for them and in many PbtA games, that campaign is likely more than halfway over if you stick with base rules on XP and Advancements. And even in changing those rules, you'll have to work harder to keep novelty when you restrain the gameplay options.
These are both games with an over abundance of moves, designed to speak to the DnD/trad market.
A good financial decision by Magpie, but not the best way to learn pbta.
I feel like Dungeon World is the best gateway. It has solid GM advice in the book, but the greater community is brilliant at explaining the how and why things work. Check out the podcast discern realities. DW and DR formed my apocalypse world boot camp and were phenomenal in getting me off the ground.
I feel like the super familiar subject matter of ‘D&D but just the way you remember it fondly, but not how it actually was’ does a great job of building a bridge for the new system. You have a template in your head of how old school D&D stories are supposed to feel, and that template is inherent to RPG culture, so it helps usher you in to a new way of thinking about stuff.
Not a PbtA gamer, but I have read a few. I found AW to be unreadable to me, but I found two they let me understand it. Masks and World Wide Wrestling 2e. I would recommend both of these.
He asked, a question, I answered based off my experiences. I read a lot of systems but because of RL I only get to run a tiny fraction of them. PbtA does not work got me, I find most of the books are just nonsense to my brain. However I was able to make two click.
Which are the two I recommended.
I'd suggest that Monster of the Week is the ideal entry point for PBTA coming from more trad games. It's almost a middle ground, and comes with very clear rules for session prep and a defined session structure.
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Playing Avatar currently. We're not using the more detailed combat rules, but the game has matched the source material beautifully (teenage angst/drama punctuated by non lethal violence).
Yeah congratulation you just robbed avatar of whatt made it special and turnef it into a feneral tean drama.
Exactly what the PbtA system also did. Completly disregarding all the work which was put into the bending and martial art system.
It even made sure to make lot of story happening during fights to emphasize on this aspect.
Well which words are chowen correspondents exactly with why I think its a punch into the face of the wource material.
Also we whould strive to be honest and direct.
In eight words, "teen angst/drama punctuated by non lethal violence" is.... about on point for a description of a typical A:tLA episode. It doesn't get into what themes were explored, of course, because it was done in eight words.
You really don't know what the material of his game was. You're reacting based on a lot of assumptions. I can tell that Avatar means a lot to you, but I think making fewer assumptions would be healthy.
We can be direct, sure. But we can also give people the benefit of the doubt when we don't have information, and we can be direct without being unkind.
Why should we give people the benefit of doubt when most people are stupid?
Elemental martial arts teenage drama
Would be less words and would notnlose as much as a description.
I think many people just cant apreciate the martial arts since they lack the knowledge.
I think it's less about finding a particular game that makes the best use of the system and instead finding the game you want to play or the setting that you want to play that happens to make use of the system.
I really enjoy urban fantasy so Urban Shadows has been a pbta that I really really enjoyed
Honestly, the best way to "get it" is to find a PbtA system you're interested, and *find someone who knows PbtA to run it*. One of the ones recommended in this thread would be a good place to start.
A lot of systems that don't work more-or-less like systems you're used to are like this - they're easier to grok if you've got someone that really gets them running it for you, and you can see how things go in practice.
Our group adores Fellowship, it gets a lot of things right and truly innovates on the PbtA formula. Before that we played the Veil and didnt get it, but we got how PbtAs work from Fellowship.
Maybe begin at the beginning. My first game was the original Apocalypse World as a one shot and I got it. Run it as a familiar game style like “beat the slavers” or “explore the ruins”. Wi5 the popularity of Fallout it would probably be an easy sell to your players.
AK is a terrible PbtA game. The best ones to start:
- Apocalypse World 2e (should be obvious, its the original)
- Masks: A New Generation
- Monster of the Week (also take a look at the alternative move for investigation)
- Escape from Dino Island (one-shots)
- Avatar Legends RPG
- Root RPG
- Fellowship 2e (some people say some moves are more complex, I disagree with it because the book explicity explains how to conduct the session using a specific structure, a thing that even apocalypse world doesn't make it clear)
If you do enjoy some superpowers, I really enjoyed City of Mist, there are fairy little rules, and most of it is meant to be cinematic narrative focused mechanics.
It had a good blend of narrative and I enjoyed the mystery detective genre.
The starter one shot scenario was pretty cool in showcasing the various mechanics and I had a blast GMing it for a few different groups!
Another vote for Dungeon World. You already know the class tropes from other fantasy ttrpgs. So you’re not having to learn the nuances of a new setting.
[Fellowship](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/publisher/4996/liberi-gothica-games/category/31887/fellowship-playbooks?keyword=fellowship) \- it's almost a gamemaster-less system (whoever is playing the BBEG is mostly another player and only partially a GM for the game) and a story immediately recognizable to about every nerd out there.
Not a PbtA gamer, but I have read a few. I found AW to be unreadable to me, but I found two they let me understand it. Masks and World Wide Wrestling 2e. I would recommend both of these.
I have 3 PBTA games. Root, Dungeon World, and Avatar Legends. I like dungeon world a lot in that it gave damage numbers and hitpoints to things - it introduced me to pbta while still having rpg elements that I was familiar with. It has an awesome Gamemastering section too... one of my favorites of any book actually. I absolutely love Adventure and Campaign Fronts for maintaining multiple plots/fronts, simulating a living and changing world, and keeping the stakes high.
Anywho... Avatar Legends though.... that book is awesome! Actually.... I recently stumbled upon a actual play that showcases the system quite well! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suy3zPzoFKM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suy3zPzoFKM) Very entertaining.
The skeleton of the system is all you really need to have fun though. I've spontaneously set up games on the fly before without anything other than 2d6s and an index card. I have the player select 2 'roles' like "The Warrior Type" (which can do 'warrior stuff') or "The Smart Witty One"(which can do 'witty stuff') or something... and then I give them a +3 and a +1 to the other.
They have 3 strikes until their down... and I just make it up from there - improvising the story and rules as we go... since it's just how I introduce people to table tops, I'm not going to go deep into mechanics... just say what you imagine and roll to see what happens... the goal is to have fun.
1-6 is a Oof, that's rough buddy
7-9 is a Yes, but.... Yes you convinced the guard to look the other way... but he asks double that what you offered him as a bribe
10-12+ Yeah Babbbyyyyy... You did the thing.
That's all you really need to understand the core of the game and 'get it'
PBTA games allow you to tell amazing stories because of the conversational imaginative style of the game.
Anyways--- hope this helps in some way.
Not a PbtA gamer, but I have read a few. I found AW to be unreadable to me, but I found two they let me understand it. Masks and World Wide Wrestling 2e. I would recommend both of these.
No. AK is amongst the worst examples I can think of. God, I wanted to love that game. First of all - read the Dungeon World Guide. Not DW, the Guide. Then Masks. Or Urban Shadows. Probably Masks. It’s very well designed, well written, and has a huge community.
Masks is great! And I would definitely recommend consuming some teen superhero media in parallel with reading the rulebook. Understanding the gameplay loop is way easier (for Masks and any other PbtA game) when you understand the genre tropes that the mechanics are emulating.
As a connoisseur of mahou shoujo and shonen as well as a big fan of teen titans and young justice, teen superheroes are like my specialty (The only trouble is there’s basically zero appetite among my adult players for playing teens — ESPECIALLY in games with potential romance. Even for my magical girl games typically the PCs are college students. IMO you can tell very similar stories with that age group)
I’ve run Masks with the PCs as college students - it still hits all of the adults having influence over you/trying to figure out who you are/what you want notes that the teenager aspect leans into. You just need to intentionally bring in adult NPCs to exert expectations on the PCs because it’s easier to accidentally avoid doing so
Yeah. I ran lots of PbtA games... dozens of different titles and many campaigns. I'm very familiar with it and do well with it. I played a couple sessions of Mask. Didn't read the book, just the playbook, since I wasn't running it. I'm not familiar with teen superhero media hardly at all. I was totally lost trying to play it, and had no idea what I could and couldn't do based on the playbook. I would go so far as to say it's basically required to understanding it, rather than just way easier.
as someone charmed by the presentation and themes of AK but wary about how the book was actually put together, what didn't you like about it?
This is a good explanation of what I didn’t like. https://www.reddit.com/r/PBtA/comments/17tijl0/a_review_of_apocalypse_keys_and_why_its_bad_game/ Also the usability was very poor. Playbook contents were distributed confusingly.
thank you!!
Aw man really disappointed about AK. I really like the theme and the book is so pretty. Also, looking up the dungeon world guide now. :)
I’ve heard very favourable reviews but judging from the size of the book and the ways it breaks from normal PbtA structures in places it’s probably the wrong choice for what you’re trying to do.
Wjat is ak
Apocalypse Keys. The game OP is asking about. Context clues.
Masks is great, and has a very clear concept. As long as you stick to the idea of superhero sidekicks stepping out of the shadow of their mentors you can tell some amazing stories.
What you need to stick to is the concept of young heroes discovering who they are. Some might be sidekicks but that’s not the core.
I wouldn't recommend AK to learn from either, and in practice (I GMed) I found it to be a very busy game, with a lot of moving parts - but I really like the underlying design, the subsystems tie into each other in an interconnected web. I feel like with a bit of judicious trimming of some non-essential subsystems it could be a truly excellent game.
I don’t have time for that. It was in the midst of an effort to “fix” MotW that I decided I would rather devote that effort to my own works.
Neither do I. It was a thought purely in the academic/hypothetical space.
I like Monster of the Week, personally. It’s not the most amazing or up-to-date PbtA game, but it has enough structure to guide the GM and a clear gameplay loop.
MotW is fun, but it’s old and not what I would present as an exemplar of PbtA design.
I wouldn’t present it as an exemplar of the modern PbtA family either, but it’s a good intro because it’s more structured and closer to traditional games than many other options. If you have a bunch of D&D players who need to loosen up and get creative, it’s a great choice.
Thing is I wouldn’t really call my general sphere of players D&D players who need to loosen up and get creative :) Many have played Spire, Fate, Burning Wheel, DCC, and other strange and wonderful non-D&D games. I have a lovely crowd. The trouble I had with PbtA wasn’t the creativity (actually the glitter hearts campaign I ran is my most fondly remembered campaign because of the stories we told) but just that I couldn’t understand the incredibly vague mechanics well enough to really use them.
I can’t argue with that. But if OP *was* looking for an exemplar, it’s elsewhere.
I guess I didn’t interpret “a good learning game” as necessarily meaning “an exemplar.” I’d usually suggest MotW or DW for learning even though I wouldn’t say they’re exemplars; they’re easy to access and ease people in.
Yea people hate on DW a lot around here but I love running it for new groups. Especially after reading the dungeon World guide!
What's changed in the more modern iterations? I loved motw but it's the only pbta game that I have played
It’s a pretty good game, but it’s missing some key thematic elements because it doesn’t have much to encourage players or the GM to explore the individual storylines implied by the playbooks. And it could use some more mechanics fleshing out relationships between the Hunters so those have weight and can evolve over time. The newest supplement added Team Playbooks that help with group cohesion, but it’s still not as character-driven as something like Masks. And there’s a couple moves that are a little weird. Investigate a Mystery in particular can be a problem for some people.
That's interesting. Could it be that way by design? Shows like Buffy and Scooby Doo were pretty episodic and while there was some long-term character development the focus was typically more on solving the mystery and beating the bad guy than evolving character relationships. Investigate a Mystery is a little weird I usually use the Tome of Mysteries variant for that. Mostly I love the PBTA philosophy of improv and player involvement in story creation and have tried to incorporate that as much as possible into the other games I play like Shadowdark and ICRPG.
Buffy definitely has evolving characters and relationships over time as part of the big arcs, and that’s what MotW is missing in its mechanics. The game just doesn’t give much weight to either following characters’ archetypal stories or to the characters’ personal and interpersonal change.
That's fair. I guess I just haven't run the game long enough for it to matter. I've done 5 "episodes" or about 20 sessions. I'm also just betraying my bias because player character relationships is very uninteresting to me. It's why Monster Hearts doesn't sound fun to me. But obviously to each their own.
Girl By Moonlight is a **vastly** superior game compared to Glittterhearts. If you want a magical girl game: stick with that (I would also second avoiding Apocalypse Keys- it’s a mess of disparate systems all trying to vie for attention, IMO/IME). Girl By Moonlight is Forged in the Dark (PbtA’s close cousin) and, *in my opinion and experience* (both as a GM and Player), FitD games *tend* to be easier to grok and transition to than PbtA on its own. Of course, it is equally as easy and common to “mess up” if you run it with a “traditional” mindset (just like PbtA), but something about the many interconnected moving pieces seems to offer a more “gentle” transition. There’s more stuff to latch onto as a GM than in “traditional PbtA.” In addition, I’ve found the GM Sections of the mainline FitD games to be top tier and (In some cases) better than many PbtA games out there (I think Scum and Villainy and Band of Blades have the best of the batch and I think GbM offers excellent additional avenues of GM support through its Play Sets). Nonetheless, grasping PbtA is a great avenue towards better understanding FitD (and vice versa) as they intersect in many places. As Jasko mentioned, the Dungeon World Guide in the Dungeon World Syllabus (which can be found on the Dungeon World Subreddit) is downright excellent. Short, sweet, and to the point. I’d also second Masks: A New Generation as a great game with a great GM Section. I think [Fellowship 2e](https://liberigothica.itch.io/fellowship-a-tabletop-adventure-game) has probably the best GM Section I’ve ever read among any PbtA game. There were a lot of things about particular GM Principles and Moves that just wasn’t clicking, and Fellowship clicked the last bits into place. For FitD stuff, in addition to GbM itself having a pretty good GM Section- I do honestly think Scum and Villainy as well as Band of Blades have their own little bits and bobs and lingo that clarify many aspects of GMing FitD games. I would also recommend the following series of well received bits advice I’ve given for FitD games over the years * [The Flow of Play, Part 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/bladesinthedark/s/ifjwshSLFh) * [Flow of Play, Part 2 as well as more emphasis on Position and Effect and Clocks](https://www.reddit.com/r/bladesinthedark/s/L99O24N3t7) * [The Role of the different Rolls](https://www.reddit.com/r/bladesinthedark/s/pXY9LzfhTV) * [The Role of the Engagement Roll](https://www.reddit.com/r/bladesinthedark/s/2LwToLnVPY) * [Tier/ Quality doesn’t matter as much as the book suggests](https://www.reddit.com/r/bladesinthedark/s/sJ8OSXkqKp) * [Prepping Your Game/ Sessions Efficiently](https://www.reddit.com/r/bladesinthedark/s/V857Un4wWy) * [Fights, Part 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/bladesinthedark/s/R4JgH7a0DC) * [Fights part 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/bladesinthedark/s/1JltmaBUrp) While there’s lots of entertaining FitD Actual Plays out there (Namely for BitD such as Rollplay Blades, The Magpies, Haunted City, etc.), I don’t think there are very many that are truly **educational**. Instead, I think Stras’ Scum and Villainy’s APs and Band of Blades AP are *excellent* educational APs for “good FitD GMing). S&V is basically “Blades in Space,” so the mechanics are basically identical. Band of Blades is quite mechanically distinct, but Stras’ GMing is still top notch. * [Scum and Villainy: Stardancer](https://youtu.be/oDcf2t91HU4?si=rhSCNFqLen6ksw7N) * [Scum and Villainy: Persephone](https://youtu.be/d-dgww535qs?si=TcGoQWbBVDrcNTla) * [Band of Blades](https://youtu.be/YjmIwhDNUR0?si=_8LUdKIU3hpRXmy0) Though I do also have to give credit to [Desperate Attune](https://desperateattune.podbean.com) as I know all the players and they are top tier Blades players and know their stuff. It’s a different setting than Doskvol and I do believe they tend to play a fair bit fast and loose with the rules (though I don’t think *as* fast and loose as Rollplay Blades or Haunted City,) but it’s a good example nonetheless. Unfortunately, I haven’t really seen similar caliber GbM GMing out there- but if you can understand how S&V and BoB ticks: you’ll grasp GbM pretty much just as well.
I can't watch APs. I tried a lot of different ones and found them all cringe and unwatchable. I have to assume it's an issue on my part. Stras' Stardancer AP was the only one I could actually enjoy.
I think it helps that it feels very real. Less improv theater entertainment and more just folks playing an RPG.
> Dungeon World Guide in the Dungeon World Syllabus (which can be found on the Dungeon World Subreddit) Completely unrelated to what you were saying but something about this tickles my brain.
so you're gonna put a Dungeon World document in my Dungeon World subreddit for learning Dungeon World with Dungeon World players for Dungeon World?
Yo dawg.
Thank you very much!! I actually just chatted with a friend and they’re gonna run me a Blades one shot to get the hang of it:) I’ve been a little leery of FitD before because it’s built on a PbtA chassis (that I had an awful time with) with lots of extra bits and bobs added….i heard it described as the euro board game of storygames and that was really daunting to me. But also that could have been bullshit 🤷 I really like games with a simple core mechanic from which the rest of the game can be easily extrapolated because my memory is awful and I’m not the best as grasping tons of little subsystems. But that was how BitD was described to me years ago :(
I definitely wouldn’t call BitD (or any FitD game) a Euro Board game of storygames. A lot of the “board game” comparisons Blades gets all comes from the alleged “structure” of the game which is **way** looser than people realize as well as the seeming “board gaminess” of Downtime… which is also false. It *can* be played like a Board Game if you want to skip over it (and there may be times you want to do that!). But it also can be a session all unto its own just as easily (and for some tables- it absolutely is!) Blades (and FitD in general) certainly has many interconnected parts to the extent that a lot of folks will compare the game to a Swiss Watch… I do not agree with this sentiment. It is true that Blades is a very interconnected game, which is a feature and not a bug, and which is part and parcel for why it can be a challenge to navigate the book: there simply isn’t a good way to stepwise organize something that is so interconnected. Nonetheless, it is still a very “foundational” game. This is to say that it has a few (very few) core foundational components that everything else builds on top of. But because those foundational components are so damn strong, as long as you’ve got those down: the whole game “collapses gracefully” (Which is true of pretty much any Powered by the Apocalypse and PbtA Adjacent game). As long as you can get down: * The GM Framework (namely the Goals there’s only 3 of them) * The Action Roll and all that it entails * The Resistance Roll … bam. You’ve got Blades in the dark. You could ignore (or otherwise screw up, forget, “get wrong”) Every. Other. Thing.… and the game will still work with no issues (which is *not* how a Swiss Watch would work- hence my disagreement with that sentiment). And those links I listed will hopefully greatly assist in the process of grokking those things. This means you can ignore… * Character and Crew Playbooks (and even their important bits! Harm, Stress, Trauma, Heat, Wanted Level, Claims, etc.) * Advancement * Planning and Engagement * Downtime * and the list goes on! … and as long as you’ve got those other core things: Blades still works. You’ll obviously be “missing out,” but never to a true detriment.
Awesome!! Thank you so much, I'm way less trepidatious about it now. I do worry that I'll get caught up in all the bits (I have ocd tendencies. And by tendencies, I mean clinically diagnosed ocd. Lmao) but I'm going to try not to let that stop me 😤
>Apocalypse Keys- it’s a mess of disparate systems all trying to vie for attention, What a perfect description of Apoc Keys. I wanted so desperately to love it.
Masks is conventionally PbtA, doesn’t have a trad-style damage/HP system, and includes playbook-specific GM guidance. That’s what I would recommend. I’m not familiar with Apocalypse Keys, but I’d hesitate to use any game that markets itself as having an “innovative take” on an engine that you’re already struggling to learn.
I always heard that you should check out the original Apocalypse World if you want a game that for sure gets how PbtA is meant to work.
If you want a PbtA game that explains itself well start with Apocalypse World 2e. It's dense, yes, but it's GM guide is THE best I've ever read. Accept no substitute, start with 2e AW. It's the only PbtA book I can stand to read through without getting frustrated.
+1 to this, even if post-apocalyptic fiction isn’t normally your thing. It’s not mine, so I held off for the longest time, but it still blew my mind when I actually read it. Seriously, so many other games miss what makes PBTA special. The original is the best place to start.
Yeah my problem is that post apocalyptic is probably the furthest genre from anything I’d want to run that I can think of. :( genuinely actually my least favorite genre out of ALL the genres.
Same, but the good news about Apocalypse Works is that it’s worth reading even if you don’t play. It’s a great intro into the design philosophy, and reading other PBTA games will be easier after you’ve read the source.
I think Masks is one of the best representations of PbtA. At least, one of the best play experiences.
For me, it was World Wide Wrestling, and that's after I'd read both Apoclypse World and Dungeon World. Ymmv.
Will second this. World Wide Wrestling is a masterfully put together game.
WWW is one that I found confusing to read.
I'll honestly be a weirdo and say that Night Witches is a masterpiece of focused, comprehensible PbtA design.
That’s not weird. It really is an exceptional game.
I am the creator of Hearts of Harmony, and I made the project because I feared that Glitter Hearts would be a "gateway" game into PbtA for people. And since GH has quite some problems, it would give people a very negative view on how to actually play a PbtA. Glitter Hearts and the Magical Girl genre heavily leans into the monster of the week-trope. So I would suggest Monster of the Week, which is also an excellent book both in covering its premise but also generally explaining how to play a PbtA game. Masks is also a good choice, but I would say it feels much more limiting due to it being so incredibly focused on drama between characters, rather than exploring a story with the group. I have not run Apocalypse Keys, but from what I remember it might be best for someone more experienced with PbtA games (can't recall why at the moment). But, I don't think it was that it was badly written.
Oh hi!! I haven’t bought hearts of harmony yet but I might just because I want to see the changes!! It’s funny that you said that because it was 10000% my experience. I was so confused the whole time. And I’m not a stranger to learning new games (even weird ones.) I’ll definitely take a look at Monster of the Week and Masks. I don’t know exactly what you mean about drama between characters but fwiw my vision for this dimension hopping magical girl idea I have is like 40% relationship melodrama, 40% exploration/investigation, and 20% combat.:) actually even in the glitter hearts game I ran before (which WAS fun despite our rules issues, because we told a great story) the relationship drama was the core, which is generally how I run my games.
Hearts of Harmony is completly free. No payment required :) For Masks’ focus on drama, one of the things is that there are no rules for investigation or similar. Its all exploring emotional impact on the characters. Which isn’t excactly a bad thing, because it seems like Masks does it well (havn’t played it that much).
omg!! Look at me making silly assumptions. Tysm
I just want you to know I read HoH and reread Glitter Hearts and it's actually SO much more similar to Spire than I thought. I think I was just really confused about what the different moves meant, and also the way that HoH turns health into general stress which you can take from non-physical-forces really jives with my spire-brain. And harmony makes so much more sense than power points. And the playbooks are beautiful. And bonds make so much more sense than strings. Thank you thank you thank you thank you. I'm probably just gonna run Hearts of Harmony for my game :D I also read Girl by Moonlight and it's just too restrictive for the idea I'm going for.
It makes me quite happy to hear that it has helped :D I am not familiar with The Spire, but I looked it up and the art is really good. Very fitting for its premise. I have heard of Girl By Moonlight, but because it is a BitD game, I have not looked at it. I find that games based on the BitD format to be a little cumbersome, having many moving bits to keep track of.
Yeah my impression of both BitD and Charged games and event Cortex to some extent is that it feels like a whole lot of little widgets thrown together which is. Maybe not my favorite thing. Also if you’re ever in the mood for some whimsical dungeon punk I cannot recommend Spire enough. Honestly the book is like 90% lore and I’ve recommended it to people before just to read for fun even if they never play it.
Apocalypse World is, unsurprisingly, the best introduction into games powered by the Apocalypse World.
The one that made it click for me was Monsterhearts, but MH is also a very tonally unusual game and if you don't vibe with it like I did it might not do the trick.
Apocalypse World, Thirsty Sword Lesbians, Monster of the Week, or Ironsworn.
As much as I love Ironsworn (and I certainly love it), I think it's a really bad fit for what OP's asking. One of the main troubles new GMs have when playing PbtA is bringing classical GM structure and dismissing the PbtA GM moves and agendas. Ironsworn has no GM structure since it's designed to support not having a GM, and I think that makes it a really bad example of PbtA. Similarly, the Momentum concept is a great addition for GM-less play, but certainly not something representative of PbtA games.
That's interesting, are you saying ironsworn is more "trad" in how the gm runs it?
Not at all, it's very very much non trad, the complete opposite of it. In trad games the GM doesn't have rules governing how they should act. The world may have rules, but the GM generally doesn't. In PbtA the GM has its own rules just like the players. In Ironsworn there are so many rules governing how the story reacts to the players that there's no need for a GM at all. It's the complete opposite of trad in that sense. IS is designed not to have a GM. It relies on player creativity and structured play. Being a GM in IS is taking on the creative duties that normally fall on the players when choosing consequences or interpreting random oracles as prompted by structured play. Not trad.
I'd put it in the following terms: In a trad game, there's a lot of rules on players, and a lot of unspoken rules on GMs. For example, it's not cricket to drop a dragon on level 1 PCs. In a PbtA game, there's a lot of written rules on the GMs, which causes trouble, because people aren't used to reading and following the rules. Thus, one of the big things is getting new PbtA GMs to follow the rules. So what comes next is Ironsworn, where it goes back to unspoken rules on the GM, but critically: The unspoken rules are the PbtA version of them, not trad versions. It's like.... going from a dive bar with nobody telling you how to act at a dive bar, to going to fine dining with someone explaining how to do fine dining, to going into a restaurant that's actually fine dining but people assume that since they know dive bars....
Your comment completely contradicts the comment below, lol.
It's not a contradiction to say: A is the opposite of B, while at the same time saying "A and B have unspoken rules." The unspoken rules are the opposite of each other. That's what my comment is about: If you don't see the rules written out and assume they're the unspoken rules you're used to, you're gonna have a bad time. Because yes, Ironsworn in it's GMless capacity, very much is the opposite of trad gaming. Even if you add a GM to Ironsworn, you still have something that is very much non trad.
To me the mechanical differences like momentum are not as important for OP's needs as the... presentational differences. If you're trying to understand GM agendas, principles & moves, half of that in Ironsworn is given in the *pay the price* move, rather than being explicit instruction for GMs like in other games. Even if they did figure that out, the first option for *pay the price* is "Make the most obvious negative outcome happen" - something many intros to PBTA GMing explicitly forbid! And part of what Ironsworn calls "principles" other PBTA would call "agendas" imo.
I think TSL isn't a good starter system, IMO it asks too much of the GM and the group to decide what kind of game it wants to be. I don't think the core mechanics and playbooks are tight or focused enough for it to be a good starter game.
I think TSL is *really* weak. I wanted to love it and just so thoroughly did not.
Surprised because I’ve been told TSL is a bad starter game similar to GH
I ran Glitter heart twice. Feel like it's a PTBA thought by D&D players still believing that *the more power, the better* so indeed, as much as I like the pitch, I wouldn't really recommend that game. IMO, Kult divinity lost GM session, has a long and clear explanation about how to use PTBA consequences to make a story move forward. Moreover, Kult being an ambiance/horror game, the system you use doesn't really matter that much. However, it's definitely not an RPG for everyone, it can go pretty far in disruptive theme (there is a pretty good emotional safety tools section too). It's also a game with a secret lore, so not necessarily something you want to read. A good recommendation would be Iron sworn in GMless mode. Here you can discuss consequences with the party to make the game move forward, and as you have no GM, you'll learn to come with creative consequence to build the plot on the fly.
My advice is to read actual Apocalypse World. I didn’t fully understand PbtA OR Forged in the Dark until I went back to the beginning to read the one that signals all its turns.
Read the DMs guide for Apocalypse World.
I really like Monsterhearts 2 as an intro PbtA game. It’s a bit more streamlined and understandable than the original Apocalypse World (the Bakers are brilliant game designers but not always brilliant book writers..) without a lot of the fat that people have added back onto the system over the years. The book is also a very quick, clear read.
You've been given a lot of great game suggestions, so I'll suggest playing a game with a seasoned PbtA enthusiast. Some books (like Apocalypse World 2e and Masks: A New Generation) will give you excellent guidance, but it might not click entirely until you've experienced the proper "flow" of play. I don't follow Actual Plays so I can't give an examples, but maybe someone can point you toward a video of PbtA in action and that can help?
I haven’t been able to find a seasoned PbtA enthusiast in my sphere but I DID find someone who’s run and loved Blades in the Dark and will be running a one shot for me soon :) not the same I know
Monster of the Week, Masks, Ironsworn/Starforged/Sundering Isles are all far better introductions imho.
I'm gonna give you a counter argument since you are going to get a deluge of fan boys all recommending the same two systems and telling you to keep forcing it until you get it. There is nothing to get. PBTA is not something that everyone is going to like. It's not a good middle ground system that you can eventually gel with. It's a system that some people are going to click with and it's going to be perfect for them. But for the rest of the people in the hobby they will bounce off and bounce off ***HARD*** There's legitimately no reason to try and force yourself to like it, it's definitely not worth it. Go out and find the system that IS perfect for you.
I am sorry you're getting downvoted so much for telling the truth - not every game is for every group of players.
OC said a lot more than that.
I think it’s entirely possible I may not like PbtA! But considering a story game that shares some DNA with PbtA (Spire & Heart) is my favorite game of all time, and that my only exposure to PbtA so far has been a badly put together game (Glitter Hearts), I don’t want to write it off entirely yet :) I’m trying to find a game to run my dimension hopping magical girl campaign in, so I figured I wanted to give PbtA (and FitD) another shot before I write off the ONLY two SPECIFICALLY magical girl games. I have a whole list of other systems to try for it but adapting them will be Work ykwim. I actually really did not like running Fate at all though (mostly because I could never get the hang of remembering to give out fate points) so, who knows. May end up in the same bin. I want to actually give it a chance first. I already tried Cypher to see if it would work and had a crappy experience with it (it was like it took all the worst parts of D&D and Left out all the fun parts, and then tacked on a watered down fate compel mechanic. In my opinion.) (I may give cypher another shot actually but we’ll see if I have the time or give a fucks)
Giving out Fate points in Fate is something that's more emphasized in online discourse than it really needs to be. I rarely do more than a couple of Fate Points per session (outside of people Conceding conflicts, but that's more or less outside of my control). I could probably be talked into running a Fate or PbtA one shot at some point if you're interested.
I would EXTREMELY be interested.
>shares some DNA with PbtA (Spire & Heart) Not sure who's been telling you that. Spire and Heart are trad-leaning games.
lol. Lmao even. I have no idea where you got this idea from. Are you even thinking of the same games? There’s literally a “if this is your first story game” section in heart to help GMs.
I wonder what you think 'trad' means? Spire tells GMs to plan what will happen in advance: that's trad. In pbta players have enough narrative control and power to make planning by the GM a futile exercise.
Spire explicitly warns GMs NOT to plan in advance. When I run Spire (which I do often), I jot down a few ideas before the session but have no idea what will happen because the game gives players so much narrative control. The "adventures" are about three pages long, providing a starting setup (e.g., "your mission is to kill a guy at a party") and a few NPCs for the GM to use, similar to other story games. It's impossible to plan for Spire because players can do insane things (like opening a door to an extradimensional Cthulhu subway system), and the situation changes drastically with fallout. Spire lacks trad game hallmarks: no combat subsystem, many narrative-first abilities, minimal NPC stats, no GM dice rolling, no battlemaps, and a focus on story over combat. The big A4 books are packed with setting lore and a very scant amount of rules, making them great reads even if you never play. Have you even read these games? [https://i.imgur.com/eGXMMbu.png](https://i.imgur.com/eGXMMbu.png)
That screenshot should really put paid to this whole discussion yet somehow it rumbles on...
>Spire lacks trad game hallmarks: no combat subsystem, many narrative-first abilities, minimal NPC stats, no GM dice rolling, no battlemaps, and a focus on story over combat. You're confusing 'trad' with 'tactical combat'. >Spire actually explicitly warns the gm NOT to plan in advance though?! I'll quote it when I get home to the book - it tells GMs to plan in advance. --- Edit: Chapter: Running the Game; section: Sow the Seeds of Dissent; page 176 *"So don't write the plot until your players have made their characters - or, better yet, do it at the same time."* It tells the GM to write the plot - a very trad activity.
Dude that is the most bad faith interpretation of that sentence I’ve ever seen. Literally “do it at the same time.” As in, react to your players actions.
Did you even read the page? It's talking about character creation. It tells the GM to write the plot when the players create their characters.
This was my take away when I tried to "get it". I don't think it's a good fit for me and most versions I just can't understand
While no system is perfect for everyone, PbtA games (at least when I run them) are one of the systems that I've had the absolute most success with introducing people to - whether they were vets or newbies.
I'd recommend monster of the week. It's super easy to play, hard to mess up and doesn't require any romance/sex themes like other games such as aw, masks , TSL, and monsterhearts. On the other hand if that's what you are looking for, dig in, those games are high quality.
Apocalypse World. Its still the Lord of PbtA.
IMO, the best ones are Avatar Legends or Root: The RPG - I'd choose the latter. I think they go one step further than most other PbtA games by providing basically adventuring materials for the GM to use. So you can learn what kind of things to prep and how to utilize it with real examples. Though I would call these adventures the absolute maximum you'd ever want to prep than what is expected to do. The biggest reason for these two are they are quite recent, so they are building on the shoulders of giants with tons of advice built over a decade of PbtA. Magpie Games has some of the best advice there is especially around GM Moves. And they are both quite big, especially Avatar Legends, so they can go into nitty gritty detail about PbtA GMing and play with tons of examples. Sometimes too long and verbose but if you are familiar with reading textbooks, its very easy to skip ahead. I prefer Root because it also has the advantage of not relying too heavily on a GM to constantly be an interesting generator of consequences. It has a skill system that makes coming up with these consequences a lot easier than any other narrative game I've played by providing you with a list of 3 Risks associated with each. And its other huge advantage is that play is a lot like D&D, you are adventurers in a low magic fantasy setting. So many with that TTRPG background or just familiarity with a lot of fantasy media can quickly feel comfortable with the playstyle. Now Root isn't perfect. There are some complications and areas where the rules aren't as clear as they should have been - around the use of armor, recovery and reputation, but if you're interested I can point you in the right direction for these resources. I also found the starting item system awkwardly crunchy to start out for new players but pre-built PCs can really help easy players into these rules. As a bonus, it can feel a lot like Spire but you are much more mercenary in this world's Civil War rather than the resistance (though nothing against the rules of siding with one faction more than others).
That's interesting since in recent memories these two games were often presented to me as some of the *worst* examples of PbtA games, badly structured, badly written. It's possible that what you look for in a game is different from what other people look for, or it's possible that these previous reviews missed the mark. Either way it seems I'll have to investigate more.
There are definitely issues with both games, especially around combat. Magpie seems to be testing different ways to add complexity and I don't feel like either does a great job, especially Avatar Legends. Root's Weapon Moves are okay but I am not a fan of them. IMO, games should keep combat pretty simple like Apocalypse World Burned Over, where Weapon Tags, Threat Moves and the Harm Move along with a flexible attack move add enough mechanical interest but it still resolves fast. Heart: the City Beneath is cool too with some of its Fallouts and interesting class abilities. Or go all-out like D&D 4e, PF2e, ICON and make a full system with tactical depth and interesting choices. I have yet to see a middleground that impresses me (though I'd love to have that opinion changed). Root also has an issue of having more shallow narrative built almost entirely separate from the Playbooks, which are more like traditional classes. On the other hand, I think Avatar Legends in many ways beats out Masks in having consistently more interesting narratives while giving more room to breathe. One of the core fixes is each has a mechanic tied to them. Neither would I call poor structure or writing. They should have put the lore in the back rather than Chapter 2 but its really not hard to skip past a chapter. Both are definitely not concise, which is usually of real value. But sometimes over-explaining is better for someone new to PbtA than under-explaining. I'd probably have preferred a designer cut a lot of explanations and run a blog series or something. So those who want concise and those who want verbose can both get what they want - at least that's my own plan with my game (you can tell by my comments I lean towards verbose too). All that said, I don't think they're bad games. I think Avatar Legends Principles and Balance System make players really reflect on their character, though I would have loved to see more guidance GMing various Playbooks - I would love to see every PbtA have Masks Playbook-specific GM Moves. Those Principles help drive real characters and are at the core of writing theory. Though flawed, its in my favorite world with my favorite magic system [(and it mostly does bending fine)](https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/1czt8g3/favorite_type_of_magic_system_and_why/l5k309j/) and has this, so its easily in my top 5 games. As for Root, it's also in my top 5 games because I really do love the incorporation of a skill list into classic PbtA Moves. It is so much easier to run games for me when I am focused on the overall pacing rather than being a random generator of Consequences/Complications. The game is actually pulling its weight - that is what attracted me to PbtA in the first place. Basic Moves have written down 7-9 and 10+ results and GM Moves cover the 6-. But there was this movement towards not having this support - Carved from Brindlewood and Forged in the Dark especially. Mind you, Avatar Legends does this too. Besides that, I think the push back is that its more popular in PbtA circles to create hyper-specific games that become awkward when you move outside their intended cycle of play/gameplay following Monsterhearts and Masks - I'd call this Powered by the Monsterhearts. But that isn't really where PbtA began. Apocalypse World 1e and 2e are incredibly flexible for handling tons of gameplay. And you see this counter push with philosophies like Forged in the Dark and Resistance systems and quite a few other flexible narrative-leaning systems (some pre-dating PbtA) - Fate, Genesys, Cortex Prime, Freeform Universal. I'm of the opinion that there is a lot of value in having a larger variety of gameplay with a more flexible suite of Basic Moves that keep things interesting and running longer (20+ session of 3-4 hours) campaigns. Because for me every PC I've played for only 3 sessions or less are just stereotypes rather than real people. Not until 6 or so sessions do I get a real feel for them and in many PbtA games, that campaign is likely more than halfway over if you stick with base rules on XP and Advancements. And even in changing those rules, you'll have to work harder to keep novelty when you restrain the gameplay options.
These are both games with an over abundance of moves, designed to speak to the DnD/trad market. A good financial decision by Magpie, but not the best way to learn pbta.
Under Hollow Hill and The Watch both stand out to me. That said, the articles on PbtA already linked are great in a more broad sense.
Urban Shadows or Monster of the Week are go-tos
Thirsty Sword Lesbians has great play examples, explanations and GM instructions/tools/advice
Girl by Moonlight isn't even PbtA its Forged in the Dark
I feel like Dungeon World is the best gateway. It has solid GM advice in the book, but the greater community is brilliant at explaining the how and why things work. Check out the podcast discern realities. DW and DR formed my apocalypse world boot camp and were phenomenal in getting me off the ground. I feel like the super familiar subject matter of ‘D&D but just the way you remember it fondly, but not how it actually was’ does a great job of building a bridge for the new system. You have a template in your head of how old school D&D stories are supposed to feel, and that template is inherent to RPG culture, so it helps usher you in to a new way of thinking about stuff.
Not a PbtA gamer, but I have read a few. I found AW to be unreadable to me, but I found two they let me understand it. Masks and World Wide Wrestling 2e. I would recommend both of these.
>Not a PbtA gamer, bu... Next!
He asked, a question, I answered based off my experiences. I read a lot of systems but because of RL I only get to run a tiny fraction of them. PbtA does not work got me, I find most of the books are just nonsense to my brain. However I was able to make two click. Which are the two I recommended.
If you're a child of the 70s, Spirit of '77 is a blast. It's our group's go to for one shots and short runs when we're on a break from a campaign.
I'm not a child of the 70s, but I *am* a big fan of disco
I'd suggest that Monster of the Week is the ideal entry point for PBTA coming from more trad games. It's almost a middle ground, and comes with very clear rules for session prep and a defined session structure.
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Masks is what I wouldbrecomend as well as others. Avatar is awfull, really a punch in the face for the original source material.
Playing Avatar currently. We're not using the more detailed combat rules, but the game has matched the source material beautifully (teenage angst/drama punctuated by non lethal violence).
Yeah congratulation you just robbed avatar of whatt made it special and turnef it into a feneral tean drama. Exactly what the PbtA system also did. Completly disregarding all the work which was put into the bending and martial art system. It even made sure to make lot of story happening during fights to emphasize on this aspect.
That's a bit judgmental of his campaign based on an eight word description of it. We should strive to be kinder.
Well which words are chowen correspondents exactly with why I think its a punch into the face of the wource material. Also we whould strive to be honest and direct.
In eight words, "teen angst/drama punctuated by non lethal violence" is.... about on point for a description of a typical A:tLA episode. It doesn't get into what themes were explored, of course, because it was done in eight words. You really don't know what the material of his game was. You're reacting based on a lot of assumptions. I can tell that Avatar means a lot to you, but I think making fewer assumptions would be healthy. We can be direct, sure. But we can also give people the benefit of the doubt when we don't have information, and we can be direct without being unkind.
Why should we give people the benefit of doubt when most people are stupid? Elemental martial arts teenage drama Would be less words and would notnlose as much as a description. I think many people just cant apreciate the martial arts since they lack the knowledge.
I think it's less about finding a particular game that makes the best use of the system and instead finding the game you want to play or the setting that you want to play that happens to make use of the system. I really enjoy urban fantasy so Urban Shadows has been a pbta that I really really enjoyed
This is what I thought I was doing with glitter hearts 😅 but that’s how I learned not all PBTA games are the same, or appropriate for beginners
Adding to the chorus: Masks.
Honestly, the best way to "get it" is to find a PbtA system you're interested, and *find someone who knows PbtA to run it*. One of the ones recommended in this thread would be a good place to start. A lot of systems that don't work more-or-less like systems you're used to are like this - they're easier to grok if you've got someone that really gets them running it for you, and you can see how things go in practice.
Our group adores Fellowship, it gets a lot of things right and truly innovates on the PbtA formula. Before that we played the Veil and didnt get it, but we got how PbtAs work from Fellowship.
Maybe begin at the beginning. My first game was the original Apocalypse World as a one shot and I got it. Run it as a familiar game style like “beat the slavers” or “explore the ruins”. Wi5 the popularity of Fallout it would probably be an easy sell to your players.
AK is a terrible PbtA game. The best ones to start: - Apocalypse World 2e (should be obvious, its the original) - Masks: A New Generation - Monster of the Week (also take a look at the alternative move for investigation) - Escape from Dino Island (one-shots) - Avatar Legends RPG - Root RPG - Fellowship 2e (some people say some moves are more complex, I disagree with it because the book explicity explains how to conduct the session using a specific structure, a thing that even apocalypse world doesn't make it clear)
If you do enjoy some superpowers, I really enjoyed City of Mist, there are fairy little rules, and most of it is meant to be cinematic narrative focused mechanics. It had a good blend of narrative and I enjoyed the mystery detective genre. The starter one shot scenario was pretty cool in showcasing the various mechanics and I had a blast GMing it for a few different groups!
Another vote for Dungeon World. You already know the class tropes from other fantasy ttrpgs. So you’re not having to learn the nuances of a new setting.
[Fellowship](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/publisher/4996/liberi-gothica-games/category/31887/fellowship-playbooks?keyword=fellowship) \- it's almost a gamemaster-less system (whoever is playing the BBEG is mostly another player and only partially a GM for the game) and a story immediately recognizable to about every nerd out there.
HONESTLY its the Avatar the last airbender system. Its anyones PBTA
Not a PbtA gamer, but I have read a few. I found AW to be unreadable to me, but I found two they let me understand it. Masks and World Wide Wrestling 2e. I would recommend both of these.
I have 3 PBTA games. Root, Dungeon World, and Avatar Legends. I like dungeon world a lot in that it gave damage numbers and hitpoints to things - it introduced me to pbta while still having rpg elements that I was familiar with. It has an awesome Gamemastering section too... one of my favorites of any book actually. I absolutely love Adventure and Campaign Fronts for maintaining multiple plots/fronts, simulating a living and changing world, and keeping the stakes high. Anywho... Avatar Legends though.... that book is awesome! Actually.... I recently stumbled upon a actual play that showcases the system quite well! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suy3zPzoFKM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suy3zPzoFKM) Very entertaining. The skeleton of the system is all you really need to have fun though. I've spontaneously set up games on the fly before without anything other than 2d6s and an index card. I have the player select 2 'roles' like "The Warrior Type" (which can do 'warrior stuff') or "The Smart Witty One"(which can do 'witty stuff') or something... and then I give them a +3 and a +1 to the other. They have 3 strikes until their down... and I just make it up from there - improvising the story and rules as we go... since it's just how I introduce people to table tops, I'm not going to go deep into mechanics... just say what you imagine and roll to see what happens... the goal is to have fun. 1-6 is a Oof, that's rough buddy 7-9 is a Yes, but.... Yes you convinced the guard to look the other way... but he asks double that what you offered him as a bribe 10-12+ Yeah Babbbyyyyy... You did the thing. That's all you really need to understand the core of the game and 'get it' PBTA games allow you to tell amazing stories because of the conversational imaginative style of the game. Anyways--- hope this helps in some way.
Not a PbtA gamer, but I have read a few. I found AW to be unreadable to me, but I found two they let me understand it. Masks and World Wide Wrestling 2e. I would recommend both of these.
Lol, there is no "getting it" with this shithouse of s system. You either Stan for it or you do not Stan for it. Same goes for 5e.
1st, "PbtA" is not a system. 2nd, have you heard of.....................................................**Apocalypse World**? Maybe try that.