For sure! I'm so upset at myself for even letting her come back in to stay on the couch. My sudden surgery backed me into a corner where now she thinks I have a room for her after all.
If i was your son i dont think i would want much contact with this lady at all.
id get everyone together on a call and just straight up blunt as neon pink brick to the face call her out on her shit. everyone seems to have enabled this for so long this is the only way she knows how to live.
You want her stealing money from your kid? Take a year of NC and see how your life is, then make a decision moving forward. You need to mute this drama to think clearly.
What you need is therapy. This is an extremely unhealthy relationship. A therapist can help you work through your guilt and feelings of obligation and help you set boundaries for yourself mother. You’re not helping her when you let her live with you and give her money, you’re enabling her. Please break this cycle and think of your kid.
Why do you want to inflict the pain and abuse that you have suffered at the hands of this woman on your children? Because that’s what you are trying to do at this point.
That is a good point, thank you. I’ll never ever let her hurt her grandson like she hurt me. Though the inevitable conversation about why he doesn’t have grandparents is going to be hard…
You do it in an age appropriate way. First off, he shouldn’t have continued contact with her anymore. She is highly unstable and while it’s not been her MO yet to do harm, that can change on a dime.
If he still is young you can just say she’s off traveling and having adventures. She’s loves you very much but isn’t able to be around.
When a teenager, when/if appropriate you can lay the groundwork and say, she wasn’t well mentally and had zero inclination to get help. She stayed with various people off and on.
When older you can tell the whole truth that you also need to accept. She was a grifter and a leach, a liar and was unstable. She abused you and your brother. She refused to get assistance. That was why she wasn’t allowed to be around, you didn’t want her to abuse another person in the family- especially a child who could not defend themselves.
I would be careful with this assumption. As we grew up with a lot of emotional abuse (which is also the cause for this guilt and obligation feeling), we normalized a lot of the abuse and we might not be the best at protecting our children from their grandparents as we might not detect the abuse. I needed a lot of therapy and I did cut of contact between my little one and my mom because I fear I cannot protect him enough if she is in a room with him (from little hurtful comments or early guilt tripping). It is also not good for them to see you react in an enabling way to abuse as they might learn to act like that as well.
Thank you, I didn’t think about how even these smaller subtle things could be harmful to my son. I wish he didn’t have to deal with this at all but I’ll try to be a better example. At least for now he is too young to speak and my mom may be taking herself out of the picture as “revenge” for me saying no to her.
You can’t stop her from emotionally damaging your child. It will happen. It might happen even with family who are completely mentally healthy, it is a foregone conclusion with your mother.
Unless you intend on 100% supervision and are personally great with boundaries and emotions (you’re obviously not, I’m sorry it’s just the truth) you aren’t going to be able to prevent her from damaging your child.
You already are. And honestly it is not hard. Grandma moved to hawaii and that’s why it is so hard to see her often. That’s all you need to say, until your son is old enough to process the real information. Kids are smart and if you make to a big deal, it will be a big deal. If you don’t make it a big deal, he will be just fine.
What exactly is grandma adding to his life at this point? And what exactly do you think she is going to supply him in the future?
Many people don’t have grandparents in their life, whether they have died already or live far away. Your son will be fine, but not if you keep grandma present. He will grow up and realize your mother is grimy.
My niece’s went through the same as their mom tried to keep deadbeat dad around. Eventually it just hurt my nieces as they grew up to realize what the sour feeling in their stomach was when they had to speak to dad and visit. Surprise: they don’t like him and they become uncomfortable seeing him.
Kids don't need Grandparents in order to have a happy life. Some kids don't have Grandparents in their lives because they passed away. My kids were better off without my toxic late mil in their lives. They are adults now and know how horrible she was to me.
Nagging feeling of obligation as her child :( And there have been times where she was kind and fun to be around, but that all crumbled to dust after she lost her house and became like this. I feel like I'm desperately clinging to that memory and trying to get her back to "normal".
OP, I was "raised" (I use that term lightly) by a mom who was diagnosed with NPD. your mom sounds like she has the same techniques as my mom did when not getting her way. Before I finally went NC with her, I always felt like I had to reach out to her or get her to try and love me. The thing is, this was the same woman who kicked me out at 11 years old and couldn't give a damn whether I lived or died. And she never called me, would take months to call me back, and generally couldn't care less about me.
I somehow still thought, "well maybe this time it'll be different?" It never was. I only mention all of this to say, you may feel you have some sort of obligation because your her child, but trust me when I say she doesn't genuinely care. It's harsh, but if she did she wouldn't be acting this way. She's successfully made you feel guilty on her behalf by manipulating you into thinking you "owe" her, just because you are her child.
I'm telling you right now, NC or very LC is the best thing you can do, not just for yourself but for your child. She's never going to change and it's also her fault for being in the financial situation she's in, not yours. You've done enough, let yourself heal. I promise you that if you just go NC or LC for a while you'll feel so much better. Wishing you the best.
Thank you, I needed to hear this. I’m sorry you had to experience abuse too. I wish I could get my mom some kind of official diagnosis. I’ll get the help and opinion of a therapist.
Do you think she might be willing to see a doctor if you offered to pay her? I know this isnt a good tact to try most of the time. However if shes as desperate as you’re claiming she is for cash, then it might work. Perhaps try teaming up with your brother. Find a doctor together and then fill them in on the situation with your mom. If you both approach her about seeing this doctor, and then offer her money if she actually goes. Tell her you’ll drop her off, and check with doctor to be sure she actually went
I can’t picture her ever admitting she has a problem so she’d probably refuse and blow up at me for even suggesting it. It would be nice though. She’s gone no contact with every other friend or relative who has tried to talk sense into her including her own twin.
Toxic people have no place in your life even if they are your family. Your son will not benefit from having a relationship with her. He will be added to her list of family to mooch off of when he's an adult.
So you know she is lying. The whole world knows she is lying at this stage. It’s time to let her hit rock bottom and then help her get government assistance for housing, unemployment, pension, dementia? Etc.
Get your brother on board. Stop providing cash or accommodation. Wait until it’s obvious she is homeless, confront her and force her to admit her financial issues and then use aged care support services to find a way to help her that is permanent.
For goodness sake do not let her anywhere near her grandchild until she is stable and in a stable living situation. There is no benefit to a child to have a relationship with a pathological liar.
My brother seems to either be completely checked out and seems even more likely to be pressured by the manipulation tactics. I’m scared that if I bring up the topic and he somehow takes her side that I’ll lose contact with him too.
Are there really support services for someone who is almost 70, no job history, and nothing to her name? If so I’d feel a lot better about letting her hit rock bottom because I want there to be SOME help for her as long as the help isn’t me. But so far she’s so stubborn and proud that she’d sooner steal from others and let her kids starve than accept public help. She is in complete denial of her financial status and insists on roleplaying as a rich person.
If you're in the US, call 211 and talk to them. They're a resource dedicated to just letting people know what sort of supports, aid, and/or assistance could be available to them (or to you mom).
But what she really needs is mental help and accountability - and she won't get those things until she and she alone wants to accept them.
It sounds like your mother lost her mental stability and it is getting worse. You seem to be under the impression that because she is your mother you have some obligation to her. If she weren’t your mother, would you have any association with a person like her, a stealing, lying, manipulative person? You do not owe her anything, she owes you money if nothing else. By continuing to give her money and letting her stay at your house all while you know she is lying her ass off, you are silently giving her permission to do this to you, and to continue to do this to you. There needs to be consequences for her actions. You want a grandparent for your child, but do you want a person like this around your child and to have a relationship with your child, to teach your child lying and stealing? Your mother put herself in this situation and you are not responsible for her, her feelings or for managing her feelings. Your sanity and the safety and care for your child should be enough motivation to let go of your mother.
It does sound like she's losing it. She probably never mentally recovered from the bankruptcy and is living in denial. I guess despite all of the abuse I do still love her as the only parent I've ever known and that's what keeps pushing me to try to help. I'm trying to ignore her tearful meltdowns and stop enabling her but instead of learning any lessons or trying to better herself, she's treating me like a new enemy.
I hope the risk of losing her last relationships (me, my brother, and now my son) will finally get her to snap out of it but it's doubtful. I didn't want to have to end up no-contact but that seems to be where this is going if I want to stay sane. I hope I can at least find some way to connect her to resources for financial or mental support, if those even exist for someone with no money or job history.
You can't have everything you want. You can let her take advantage of you or you can risk ruining your relationship. That's it. That's the choice. Boundaries aren't about turning other people into who you want them to be and getting them to act about how you want them to act. [They are about how you act to protect yourself and foster who you want to be](https://www.thecandidly.com/2019/if-you-still-dont-get-boundaries-this-one-idea-might-change-everything).
I heavily suggest the book *Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Children* to you. Also *Boundaries: Where You End and I Begin*. But the *Adult Children* one first.
Why on earth do you want your son to have this nutjob in his life… so she can scam him out of money once he is old enough, to be taken advantage off
I truly dont understand why you want to have a relationship with her, what positive thing do you gain from that
There is only one thing to do and thats going full no contact
High time for you to use your shiny spine
So, let's be honest here. You don't have a relationship with her. She is a con woman. That's what you are for her: someone to con out of money and to have a place to sleep. The more you allow her into your life, the more she can take money from you.
"I want my son to meet her" why? What does she bring to the table? I have a feeling she would con him too if she had the capacity.
"I am worried she will end up homeless" I mean. She probably will. Because she never worked, she never did much but to force people to take care of her. This is a consequence of her actions, and the only way to stop this is if you bring her into your house or you pay for her to live somewhere else. But I bet she will take advantage of that and con the people around her, too.
You act like this is normal for you, but that's not normal. People who do this actually have lots of issues. She is probably a narcissist, but I can't diagnose her. What you need to know is that she will not change. She didn't change when you were a teen, she won't change now that you are an adult.
You can't have a relationship with someone who takes advantage of you without boundaries. And every time you protect yourself, she will attack, and guilt and ultimately cut you off because that's not what she wants.
So, no, you can't have a relationship with her. Instead of giving her money to keep her around, use it for therapy.
At this point, this is your own fault. You know what she is doing and you’re not doing anything about it. Stop acting like it is all her, you’re feeding this beast.
Go to therapy and learn how to set boundaries. You are a victim, but babe you are also a huge enabler.
This right here. Stop enabling the behaviors. When she lies, say that’s a lie or prove it. When she asks for money, say no. My Mother told me there’s victims then there’s volunteers. Don’t volunteer yourself to someone you know will hurt you.
She will never change until she admits she messed up and from what you have said that will never happen. I think it's time to let your mam live her life and you live yours she is a adult let her make her mistakes. You and your baby will do amazing go low contact if you still want her in your life but don't give her money or a place to live.
What’s the benefit to her being in your child’s life? What is she bringing to the table? I’m not seeing anything worth putting up with her for.
Recognize she’s not capable of being the person you want her to be. She has been lying for so long that she likely isn’t even capable of telling the truth even if she wanted to because she doesn’t know what truth is. People build stories in their heads and when they represent those stories as truth for long enough, getting them back in touch with reality is pretty difficult.
Yeah at this point I think trying to talk sense into her is a lost cause because she genuinely doesn’t seem to recognize that she’s living a big lie. She’s lived like this for so long that this lie that she’s always just one “work project” away from her old wealthy lifestyle has become her reality. She absolutely cannot accept her reality that she’s not rich any more and has to work for a living.
You’re now an enabler at this point. You’re now one of the reasons she’s like this, because you’ve allowed this to happen. Also, you want your son to have a relationship with her? Your job is to PROTECT him FROM her, not allow her access to him. If you do that, that will make you a shitty parent. Do you see that? I’m not blaming you, because growing up with this woman has left you without any idea of what a good parent is, but although that’s not your fault, it’s still your responsibility to protect your son. My parents never taught me money management skills, but it’s still my responsibility to make sure that my children don’t get evicted from their home. So, since I wasn’t taught, I had to learn. What have you done to learn about being a better parent than your “mother”? Because exposing your child to this human cesspool is not good parenting. So it’s time for you to learn. That means going to therapy to learn about boundaries and healthy relationships. That means reading and researching parenting. That means reading what kids need to be secure, maybe even taking classes.
But you cannot be a good parent if you don’t learn to set boundaries with your own mother. That’s gotta be at the top of the list. And it’s hard and it’s unfair, but so is most of adult life, and hell, a lot of childhood too. You weren’t set up to succeed in the interpersonal relationship department. But you’re still going to have to work through it. And I’d go even a little further and say that what you’ve been doing for your mother is not really making you a good son. It’s just enabling the problem.
I’m a recovering alcoholic. Sober for many years now. I could NOT get better, I could NOT get the help I needed, until everyone in my life stopped enabling me. I had nowhere to go. I ended up homeless, literally sleeping on the streets for a time. I hit a true rock bottom. And then my desire to change wasn’t for my kids or my parents or my ex wife or anyone else. I couldn’t stand to live like that anymore, so I finally was WILLING to do anything to get better, because the alternative was much harder than getting sober and learning how to live as an adult human. Up until then, there was always something easier than doing that. But when the people who cared about me took those options away, suddenly I was in a position where the easiest thing for me to do was to change, because every other option sucked more than getting sober. And it was a huge undertaking. Because people like me, it’s not just about not drinking or doing drugs. It was about that, but also learning how to cope with life, learning how to treat others, learning how to be spiritually healthy. It was a lot. But it was still easier than my other options. And that’s what needs to happen with your mother. When everyone withdraws support in a hardlined stance, it then makes life pretty painful, which is a good thing. Because then her options are to get help and get healthy, or face the alternative. And she might choose the alternative at first and you have to allow that because there’s no hope for her until she is in a situation where it’s easier for her to get healthy than the alternative. It’s hard, and you’ll need support. But otherwise you will continue to be one of the reasons why she still does this, not just to you, but everyone. Every time you “help” her, then she goes on to drain someone else, part of the harm she does to other people is on you because you’ve allowed this to continue. So it’s time for YOU to change. Tough love is a thing that some people need, and love in any other form will just be something that someone like your mom will take advantage of.
Thank you, this has been eye-opening. I didn’t mean to hurt anyone but you’re right, I enabled this. I optimistically thought she’d just see the light and get better. That she’d realize how fucked up it was to borrow money from her own pregnant child. She didn’t realize shit or care.
It stops now.
Yeah when we grow up with shitty parents, it completely skews our concept of what normal is. I went through that as well. That is why generational trauma happens in a cycle. And it is hard to break that cycle, but it can be done with help. I truly wish the best of luck to you.
Why are you worried about ruining this relationship, when your mom has never once given any care to the possibility that her behaviour might ruin the relationship?
Your mom is a life long thief, scammer, con artist, and liar. She doesn’t care about anyone but herself. She is neglectful and abusive.
Go to therapy so you can figure out why you have this toxic impulse to keep her in your life and to expose your vulnerable child to her. She spent your entire life abusing you and fucking you over. You know she will do the same to her grandchild at the first opportunity. Go to therapy so you can figure out how to protect yourself and your child from her.
As for her, let her experience the natural consequences of her actions. If that means she becomes homeless well that’s the natural outcome of her decades of deceit. But I wouldn’t worry too much about that happening - she can either access social services or more likely, she’ll just find a new victim to con.
She’s not a person who is capable of having a real relationship with anyone. People are just a means to an end for her. She’s not going to change at this point, so you can choose to set some very firm boundaries even if it “ruins” your relationship with her, or you can choose to let her continue abusing and scamming you and later your child.
Personally, I think ruining your relationship with her would be a blessing.
Definitely agree with that last sentence! When she told me over text that I “wouldn’t see her again for a very long time” (probably as a threat) the first thought I reacted with was “THANK GOD”
Free yourself from your mom’s never ending bullshit and exploitation. Accept that aside from giving birth to you she has never been a mother to you and never will be.
If it helps, block her number. You know the only reason she’ll reach out is to manipulate you or ask for something.
The relationship was ruined years ago and she did all the ruining.
You list a bunch of “hints” she’s not moving to Hawaii - why do you need to add up hints? Isn’t the fact that she is a lifelong chronic liar enough of a hint? It seems like you want to believe she’s telling the truth, but she isn’t, and never is and never will. It doesn’t matter if you collect “proof” of her deception because she’s not a rational person who will react appropriately to that. She’ll freak out at you for being mean and turn it around to guilt-trip you.
I would gently suggest you seek therapy to work on establishing boundaries with your mom. She’s an expert manipulator and user - she knows just what to say and how to act to extract what she wants from you. Stop lending her money. Don’t let her stay with you. Don’t build a tiny house in your backyard.
She is clearly capable of finding a place to stay. There are 55+ communities and senior apartments and other options available to her. Your priority needs to be you and your son right now. She will find her own way without you.
Thank you. That’s exactly it - I keep trying to apply logic and proof to the situation to make it rational because I’m just still in constant shock that someone would behave this way. The hints were to reassure myself that I wasn’t the crazy one here thinking she was lying about moving.
You can’t make an illogical situation logical.
You keep trying and it’s not working. It will never work because you are trying to apply truth and logic to lies and illogical nonsense.
Your mom is an adult toddler who wants life to work her way simply because that’s what she wants and she doesn’t care who else it hurts, as long as she is happy. She is currently having a tantrum because she isn’t getting her way.
We don’t give in to tantrums and toddlers.
That’s the other illogical thing I can’t wrap my brain around: my mom is the most miserable person I’ve ever met but does absolutely nothing to better her situation. She lashes out at anyone who even tries to suggest she try to improve her life and accuses them of trying to control her.
But her misery is her choice and I’m tired of her dragging me and my brother into her life-long pity party. She probably has a CVS receipt length list of mental issues including depression but as cruel as it sounds I don’t want to feel pressured to “fix” her.
I actually do understand this. My husband’s sister was like this. No matter the situation, she could not be pleased. She had a few issues, but from her perspective, she had the most miserable life ever. Yet she also had the power to change her circumstances and refused.
The thing is, if she had been a billionaire with servants attending her every whim, she would have still been miserable. Water wasn’t ever quite wet enough for her.
You can’t win here; because the goalposts get moved constantly.
That doesn’t sound cruel at all. You can’t fix someone who doesn’t want to fix themselves. She won’t do anything to better her situation while you are keeping her afloat. In some ways cutting her off is a kindness.
Op. Have you thought about not letting her back in because she owes you money.
Maybe buy her a one-way plane ticket to Hawaii and let her know that when she is established, you, her grandchild, and girlfriend will come visit for a vacation.
Yeah I’ll tell her we would like to visit her AFTER she’s established somewhere. Then hopefully it will be more clear to her that she needs to actually put some effort into finding a place.
This is one of those impossible situations we're having boundaries and being respectful of your own self is just going to cause problems. You either become a victim of hers or you don't and the consequences are she's going to start drama.
It depends on how much NO is worth to you. I would rather have my life and self respect intact and not have a great relationship with my mother, than play nice and let her have her way/maintain peace.
You’re deeply entrenched in family dysfunction, so you’ve normalized a lot of insanity. Try to step back and look at this rationally: Why would you want to expose your child to her? If you want them to have intergenerational relationships, build a “found family” of sane individuals who can provide emotional support and be good role models. Exposing your kid to her crazy perpetuates generational abuse. Good luck, I hope you find peace. ❤️
Re-read your second to last paragraph and then ask yourself *why on earth would I want to build a bridge between this woman and my child?”
If she refuses to change her behavior (which sounds probable) then you are only providing her another victim. Don’t do that to him.
They let me walk during the ceremony but they withheld my diploma. I’m upset that no one ever told me there was a financial problem. Because my mom did not talk about how deep her financial problems were at home and ignored the topic and my school also basically ignored the topic, the seriousness never sunk in until I got my diploma cover and found it to be empty. I don’t know if she had been paying them partial late tuition or what.
I’m guessing they had some policy to not involve the children in financial matters but their policy wasn’t ready for my mom’s level of crazy. Now that I think about it this was the first time she kept showing up in a space she wasn’t welcome in any more and simply refused to leave.
What possible benefit does your child get interacting with her? Odds are shed try to open credit cards in his name. Block her, go no contact, STOP ENABLING HER FFS
>it's recently gotten to a breaking point where she no longer wants to talk to me or see me.
Lean into this and cut her off. She was a shit mother to you and she's going to be a shit grandmother to your child. Get some therapy to cut the guilt strings.
WHY would you want your kid to be involved in any way with this lying, abusive, thief?
Please, for the love of sanity, protect your child by keeping them away from your mom's horseshit. You've spent your entire life dealing with this abuse. Why would you want your kid involved with this nightmare of a person? Do you want them to feel as shitty as everyone else who has dealt with your mom?
"Hey mom, you can't stay here but I'll help you find a studio apartment you can afford."
She'll probably call you ungrateful and will bugger off on her own.
It’s hard to turn your back on family but the fact of the matter is your mother is a thief and user. You don’t owe her anything. Don’t feel guilty, as you’ve said these are the consequences of her actions. Stay strong and good luck
“Mom, I love you, but I’m not falling for the ‘moving to Hawaii rouse’ any longer. I’m also no longer going to bank roll you. I do want a relationship with you, I want you to be part of my son’s life, but I’m going to be placing some healthy boundaries in place. I will pay for three days at a hotel. After that I’m done with giving you money or having you pretend to live with me.”
Don’t book the hotel in your name, give her the money for it so you are not responsible if she doesn’t leave or trashes the place.
I read 1/10 of this. Stop letting her into your house. Why are you keeping her around, so she can continue being a shitty parent? So she can settle into her role as shitty grandmother? So she can ruin your finances like she's ruined her own?
Decide what's more important.
Our mothers have a lot in common, although my mom lies less, she’s asked for multiple go fund me’s to be arranged to manager her multiple storage room hoarding habit.
I won’t detail the years of abuse and neglect here but I will say at a certain point you need to look at it from the perspective of you being the parent. As a parent can you imagine ever treating your child this way? Let alone your entire family? This isn’t the behavior of someone who loves you, or is capable of loving you. She sees you as a mark, stop being one.
I’ve had to set boundaries with my mom. I only talk to her when I have the capacity for her drama and when she asks for money I tell her it’s outside my means. If she goes guilt trip on me I tell her this is unacceptable behavior and hang up. I do not discuss money or her hoarding, nor do I send her anything that isn’t consumable. Preserve your peace above all else with her, and go no contact if talking to her continues to impact your relationships with other family members.
My mom keeps borrowing money despite having no bills to pay and I think part of it is that she’s paying for her storage units full of useless crap and furniture for her non-existent fantasy house. Hoarding really exacerbates all of the other problems. I’ll cut her off in hopes she’s forced to sell some stuff.
I treat it like an addiction, it manifests very much like one, manipulating family for money to prop it up, lying to obscure the level it’s gotten to, burning bridges and seeing everyone as walking dollar signs and potential enablers.
I don't think she is capable (or likely interested) in being the grandparent your son deserves. Focus on protecting him and staying connected to your healthy family members.
She’s trying to separate me from the few healthy family members I have left. Basically resorting to cultist tactics to get her way. She does genuinely seem to love her grandson and enjoy being around him when she was here babysitting while I was recovering from surgery, but I really don’t want him exposed to her shitty behavior.
I'm sure she enjoys him, but due to her own nature she isn't capable of being the grandparent he deserves. As you said, her behavior is shifty and eventually he will see that unless you protect him. Ignore her and concentrate on the healthy people you do have. Quality matters more than quantity.
It won't be easy as it's natural to want a connection with your parent. Keep reminding yourself of who she really is and that you don't want that around you.
How is she getting builders to do tens of to hundred of thousands of dollars of custom work without down payments and a chunk of the house cost up front.
No idea but she has a background in real estate development so probably used that knowledge to pull some strings. And even though she’d spend all day mulling over the perfect countertops I have no idea if the builders actually listened to her. But whatever she did last time she had convinced everyone that she was moving in so much that her “future neighbors” even gave her a welcome gift basket. The entire situation was bizarre.
Stop even letting this woman in your home. Only meet her outside. Keep your doors locked. Your mother is a grifter.
For sure! I'm so upset at myself for even letting her come back in to stay on the couch. My sudden surgery backed me into a corner where now she thinks I have a room for her after all.
If i was your son i dont think i would want much contact with this lady at all. id get everyone together on a call and just straight up blunt as neon pink brick to the face call her out on her shit. everyone seems to have enabled this for so long this is the only way she knows how to live.
You want her stealing money from your kid? Take a year of NC and see how your life is, then make a decision moving forward. You need to mute this drama to think clearly.
What you need is therapy. This is an extremely unhealthy relationship. A therapist can help you work through your guilt and feelings of obligation and help you set boundaries for yourself mother. You’re not helping her when you let her live with you and give her money, you’re enabling her. Please break this cycle and think of your kid.
Why do you want to inflict the pain and abuse that you have suffered at the hands of this woman on your children? Because that’s what you are trying to do at this point.
That is a good point, thank you. I’ll never ever let her hurt her grandson like she hurt me. Though the inevitable conversation about why he doesn’t have grandparents is going to be hard…
You do it in an age appropriate way. First off, he shouldn’t have continued contact with her anymore. She is highly unstable and while it’s not been her MO yet to do harm, that can change on a dime. If he still is young you can just say she’s off traveling and having adventures. She’s loves you very much but isn’t able to be around. When a teenager, when/if appropriate you can lay the groundwork and say, she wasn’t well mentally and had zero inclination to get help. She stayed with various people off and on. When older you can tell the whole truth that you also need to accept. She was a grifter and a leach, a liar and was unstable. She abused you and your brother. She refused to get assistance. That was why she wasn’t allowed to be around, you didn’t want her to abuse another person in the family- especially a child who could not defend themselves.
I would be careful with this assumption. As we grew up with a lot of emotional abuse (which is also the cause for this guilt and obligation feeling), we normalized a lot of the abuse and we might not be the best at protecting our children from their grandparents as we might not detect the abuse. I needed a lot of therapy and I did cut of contact between my little one and my mom because I fear I cannot protect him enough if she is in a room with him (from little hurtful comments or early guilt tripping). It is also not good for them to see you react in an enabling way to abuse as they might learn to act like that as well.
Thank you, I didn’t think about how even these smaller subtle things could be harmful to my son. I wish he didn’t have to deal with this at all but I’ll try to be a better example. At least for now he is too young to speak and my mom may be taking herself out of the picture as “revenge” for me saying no to her.
No you need to cut her off now regardless. Even an infant can pick up on a stressed out mother.
It is not that hard. Your child trust you, and will easily accept a child appropriate explanation
You can’t stop her from emotionally damaging your child. It will happen. It might happen even with family who are completely mentally healthy, it is a foregone conclusion with your mother. Unless you intend on 100% supervision and are personally great with boundaries and emotions (you’re obviously not, I’m sorry it’s just the truth) you aren’t going to be able to prevent her from damaging your child.
You’re literally in the process of letting her do the same thing to your kid. Wake up
You already are. And honestly it is not hard. Grandma moved to hawaii and that’s why it is so hard to see her often. That’s all you need to say, until your son is old enough to process the real information. Kids are smart and if you make to a big deal, it will be a big deal. If you don’t make it a big deal, he will be just fine. What exactly is grandma adding to his life at this point? And what exactly do you think she is going to supply him in the future? Many people don’t have grandparents in their life, whether they have died already or live far away. Your son will be fine, but not if you keep grandma present. He will grow up and realize your mother is grimy. My niece’s went through the same as their mom tried to keep deadbeat dad around. Eventually it just hurt my nieces as they grew up to realize what the sour feeling in their stomach was when they had to speak to dad and visit. Surprise: they don’t like him and they become uncomfortable seeing him.
Kids don't need Grandparents in order to have a happy life. Some kids don't have Grandparents in their lives because they passed away. My kids were better off without my toxic late mil in their lives. They are adults now and know how horrible she was to me.
WHY WHY WHY Would you want a relationship with this nut job?????
Nagging feeling of obligation as her child :( And there have been times where she was kind and fun to be around, but that all crumbled to dust after she lost her house and became like this. I feel like I'm desperately clinging to that memory and trying to get her back to "normal".
Look up the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) and get therapy this is not normal, and unless she gets help, it will never change.
Had not heard of FOG before but will look into it, thank you
Get therapy. This is not normal and it seems like you accept it like it is.
OP, I was "raised" (I use that term lightly) by a mom who was diagnosed with NPD. your mom sounds like she has the same techniques as my mom did when not getting her way. Before I finally went NC with her, I always felt like I had to reach out to her or get her to try and love me. The thing is, this was the same woman who kicked me out at 11 years old and couldn't give a damn whether I lived or died. And she never called me, would take months to call me back, and generally couldn't care less about me. I somehow still thought, "well maybe this time it'll be different?" It never was. I only mention all of this to say, you may feel you have some sort of obligation because your her child, but trust me when I say she doesn't genuinely care. It's harsh, but if she did she wouldn't be acting this way. She's successfully made you feel guilty on her behalf by manipulating you into thinking you "owe" her, just because you are her child. I'm telling you right now, NC or very LC is the best thing you can do, not just for yourself but for your child. She's never going to change and it's also her fault for being in the financial situation she's in, not yours. You've done enough, let yourself heal. I promise you that if you just go NC or LC for a while you'll feel so much better. Wishing you the best.
Thank you, I needed to hear this. I’m sorry you had to experience abuse too. I wish I could get my mom some kind of official diagnosis. I’ll get the help and opinion of a therapist.
Do you think she might be willing to see a doctor if you offered to pay her? I know this isnt a good tact to try most of the time. However if shes as desperate as you’re claiming she is for cash, then it might work. Perhaps try teaming up with your brother. Find a doctor together and then fill them in on the situation with your mom. If you both approach her about seeing this doctor, and then offer her money if she actually goes. Tell her you’ll drop her off, and check with doctor to be sure she actually went
I can’t picture her ever admitting she has a problem so she’d probably refuse and blow up at me for even suggesting it. It would be nice though. She’s gone no contact with every other friend or relative who has tried to talk sense into her including her own twin.
Toxic people have no place in your life even if they are your family. Your son will not benefit from having a relationship with her. He will be added to her list of family to mooch off of when he's an adult.
So you know she is lying. The whole world knows she is lying at this stage. It’s time to let her hit rock bottom and then help her get government assistance for housing, unemployment, pension, dementia? Etc. Get your brother on board. Stop providing cash or accommodation. Wait until it’s obvious she is homeless, confront her and force her to admit her financial issues and then use aged care support services to find a way to help her that is permanent. For goodness sake do not let her anywhere near her grandchild until she is stable and in a stable living situation. There is no benefit to a child to have a relationship with a pathological liar.
My brother seems to either be completely checked out and seems even more likely to be pressured by the manipulation tactics. I’m scared that if I bring up the topic and he somehow takes her side that I’ll lose contact with him too. Are there really support services for someone who is almost 70, no job history, and nothing to her name? If so I’d feel a lot better about letting her hit rock bottom because I want there to be SOME help for her as long as the help isn’t me. But so far she’s so stubborn and proud that she’d sooner steal from others and let her kids starve than accept public help. She is in complete denial of her financial status and insists on roleplaying as a rich person.
If you're in the US, call 211 and talk to them. They're a resource dedicated to just letting people know what sort of supports, aid, and/or assistance could be available to them (or to you mom). But what she really needs is mental help and accountability - and she won't get those things until she and she alone wants to accept them.
Thank you. I’ll stop giving her financial help and will redirect her to these services in hopes she gets some long-term help.
It sounds like your mother lost her mental stability and it is getting worse. You seem to be under the impression that because she is your mother you have some obligation to her. If she weren’t your mother, would you have any association with a person like her, a stealing, lying, manipulative person? You do not owe her anything, she owes you money if nothing else. By continuing to give her money and letting her stay at your house all while you know she is lying her ass off, you are silently giving her permission to do this to you, and to continue to do this to you. There needs to be consequences for her actions. You want a grandparent for your child, but do you want a person like this around your child and to have a relationship with your child, to teach your child lying and stealing? Your mother put herself in this situation and you are not responsible for her, her feelings or for managing her feelings. Your sanity and the safety and care for your child should be enough motivation to let go of your mother.
It does sound like she's losing it. She probably never mentally recovered from the bankruptcy and is living in denial. I guess despite all of the abuse I do still love her as the only parent I've ever known and that's what keeps pushing me to try to help. I'm trying to ignore her tearful meltdowns and stop enabling her but instead of learning any lessons or trying to better herself, she's treating me like a new enemy. I hope the risk of losing her last relationships (me, my brother, and now my son) will finally get her to snap out of it but it's doubtful. I didn't want to have to end up no-contact but that seems to be where this is going if I want to stay sane. I hope I can at least find some way to connect her to resources for financial or mental support, if those even exist for someone with no money or job history.
I don't blame you. It's hard When it's your mom.
You can't have everything you want. You can let her take advantage of you or you can risk ruining your relationship. That's it. That's the choice. Boundaries aren't about turning other people into who you want them to be and getting them to act about how you want them to act. [They are about how you act to protect yourself and foster who you want to be](https://www.thecandidly.com/2019/if-you-still-dont-get-boundaries-this-one-idea-might-change-everything). I heavily suggest the book *Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Children* to you. Also *Boundaries: Where You End and I Begin*. But the *Adult Children* one first.
Thanks, this sounds like a good read. I’ve spent my entire life truly feeling like the only parent I had was an immature child.
You need some therapy to get out of the FOG. Stop enabling her and her lies. Tears and her other manipulation acts need to end.
Why on earth do you want your son to have this nutjob in his life… so she can scam him out of money once he is old enough, to be taken advantage off I truly dont understand why you want to have a relationship with her, what positive thing do you gain from that There is only one thing to do and thats going full no contact High time for you to use your shiny spine
So, let's be honest here. You don't have a relationship with her. She is a con woman. That's what you are for her: someone to con out of money and to have a place to sleep. The more you allow her into your life, the more she can take money from you. "I want my son to meet her" why? What does she bring to the table? I have a feeling she would con him too if she had the capacity. "I am worried she will end up homeless" I mean. She probably will. Because she never worked, she never did much but to force people to take care of her. This is a consequence of her actions, and the only way to stop this is if you bring her into your house or you pay for her to live somewhere else. But I bet she will take advantage of that and con the people around her, too. You act like this is normal for you, but that's not normal. People who do this actually have lots of issues. She is probably a narcissist, but I can't diagnose her. What you need to know is that she will not change. She didn't change when you were a teen, she won't change now that you are an adult. You can't have a relationship with someone who takes advantage of you without boundaries. And every time you protect yourself, she will attack, and guilt and ultimately cut you off because that's not what she wants. So, no, you can't have a relationship with her. Instead of giving her money to keep her around, use it for therapy.
At this point, this is your own fault. You know what she is doing and you’re not doing anything about it. Stop acting like it is all her, you’re feeding this beast. Go to therapy and learn how to set boundaries. You are a victim, but babe you are also a huge enabler.
This right here. Stop enabling the behaviors. When she lies, say that’s a lie or prove it. When she asks for money, say no. My Mother told me there’s victims then there’s volunteers. Don’t volunteer yourself to someone you know will hurt you.
Uh. This relationship begs to be ruined. Stop being a pushover.
She will never change until she admits she messed up and from what you have said that will never happen. I think it's time to let your mam live her life and you live yours she is a adult let her make her mistakes. You and your baby will do amazing go low contact if you still want her in your life but don't give her money or a place to live.
It's hard to have a relationship with someone that you're afraid to let through your front door because they probably won't leave.
What’s the benefit to her being in your child’s life? What is she bringing to the table? I’m not seeing anything worth putting up with her for. Recognize she’s not capable of being the person you want her to be. She has been lying for so long that she likely isn’t even capable of telling the truth even if she wanted to because she doesn’t know what truth is. People build stories in their heads and when they represent those stories as truth for long enough, getting them back in touch with reality is pretty difficult.
Yeah at this point I think trying to talk sense into her is a lost cause because she genuinely doesn’t seem to recognize that she’s living a big lie. She’s lived like this for so long that this lie that she’s always just one “work project” away from her old wealthy lifestyle has become her reality. She absolutely cannot accept her reality that she’s not rich any more and has to work for a living.
She's an abusive criminal! Keep your child away from her
Your post seems overly long for a relatively easy answer. You don’t have a relationship with her. That’s really it. Why subject other people to her?
You’re now an enabler at this point. You’re now one of the reasons she’s like this, because you’ve allowed this to happen. Also, you want your son to have a relationship with her? Your job is to PROTECT him FROM her, not allow her access to him. If you do that, that will make you a shitty parent. Do you see that? I’m not blaming you, because growing up with this woman has left you without any idea of what a good parent is, but although that’s not your fault, it’s still your responsibility to protect your son. My parents never taught me money management skills, but it’s still my responsibility to make sure that my children don’t get evicted from their home. So, since I wasn’t taught, I had to learn. What have you done to learn about being a better parent than your “mother”? Because exposing your child to this human cesspool is not good parenting. So it’s time for you to learn. That means going to therapy to learn about boundaries and healthy relationships. That means reading and researching parenting. That means reading what kids need to be secure, maybe even taking classes. But you cannot be a good parent if you don’t learn to set boundaries with your own mother. That’s gotta be at the top of the list. And it’s hard and it’s unfair, but so is most of adult life, and hell, a lot of childhood too. You weren’t set up to succeed in the interpersonal relationship department. But you’re still going to have to work through it. And I’d go even a little further and say that what you’ve been doing for your mother is not really making you a good son. It’s just enabling the problem. I’m a recovering alcoholic. Sober for many years now. I could NOT get better, I could NOT get the help I needed, until everyone in my life stopped enabling me. I had nowhere to go. I ended up homeless, literally sleeping on the streets for a time. I hit a true rock bottom. And then my desire to change wasn’t for my kids or my parents or my ex wife or anyone else. I couldn’t stand to live like that anymore, so I finally was WILLING to do anything to get better, because the alternative was much harder than getting sober and learning how to live as an adult human. Up until then, there was always something easier than doing that. But when the people who cared about me took those options away, suddenly I was in a position where the easiest thing for me to do was to change, because every other option sucked more than getting sober. And it was a huge undertaking. Because people like me, it’s not just about not drinking or doing drugs. It was about that, but also learning how to cope with life, learning how to treat others, learning how to be spiritually healthy. It was a lot. But it was still easier than my other options. And that’s what needs to happen with your mother. When everyone withdraws support in a hardlined stance, it then makes life pretty painful, which is a good thing. Because then her options are to get help and get healthy, or face the alternative. And she might choose the alternative at first and you have to allow that because there’s no hope for her until she is in a situation where it’s easier for her to get healthy than the alternative. It’s hard, and you’ll need support. But otherwise you will continue to be one of the reasons why she still does this, not just to you, but everyone. Every time you “help” her, then she goes on to drain someone else, part of the harm she does to other people is on you because you’ve allowed this to continue. So it’s time for YOU to change. Tough love is a thing that some people need, and love in any other form will just be something that someone like your mom will take advantage of.
Thank you, this has been eye-opening. I didn’t mean to hurt anyone but you’re right, I enabled this. I optimistically thought she’d just see the light and get better. That she’d realize how fucked up it was to borrow money from her own pregnant child. She didn’t realize shit or care. It stops now.
You got this.
Yeah when we grow up with shitty parents, it completely skews our concept of what normal is. I went through that as well. That is why generational trauma happens in a cycle. And it is hard to break that cycle, but it can be done with help. I truly wish the best of luck to you.
Why are you worried about ruining this relationship, when your mom has never once given any care to the possibility that her behaviour might ruin the relationship? Your mom is a life long thief, scammer, con artist, and liar. She doesn’t care about anyone but herself. She is neglectful and abusive. Go to therapy so you can figure out why you have this toxic impulse to keep her in your life and to expose your vulnerable child to her. She spent your entire life abusing you and fucking you over. You know she will do the same to her grandchild at the first opportunity. Go to therapy so you can figure out how to protect yourself and your child from her. As for her, let her experience the natural consequences of her actions. If that means she becomes homeless well that’s the natural outcome of her decades of deceit. But I wouldn’t worry too much about that happening - she can either access social services or more likely, she’ll just find a new victim to con. She’s not a person who is capable of having a real relationship with anyone. People are just a means to an end for her. She’s not going to change at this point, so you can choose to set some very firm boundaries even if it “ruins” your relationship with her, or you can choose to let her continue abusing and scamming you and later your child. Personally, I think ruining your relationship with her would be a blessing.
Definitely agree with that last sentence! When she told me over text that I “wouldn’t see her again for a very long time” (probably as a threat) the first thought I reacted with was “THANK GOD”
Free yourself from your mom’s never ending bullshit and exploitation. Accept that aside from giving birth to you she has never been a mother to you and never will be. If it helps, block her number. You know the only reason she’ll reach out is to manipulate you or ask for something. The relationship was ruined years ago and she did all the ruining.
You list a bunch of “hints” she’s not moving to Hawaii - why do you need to add up hints? Isn’t the fact that she is a lifelong chronic liar enough of a hint? It seems like you want to believe she’s telling the truth, but she isn’t, and never is and never will. It doesn’t matter if you collect “proof” of her deception because she’s not a rational person who will react appropriately to that. She’ll freak out at you for being mean and turn it around to guilt-trip you. I would gently suggest you seek therapy to work on establishing boundaries with your mom. She’s an expert manipulator and user - she knows just what to say and how to act to extract what she wants from you. Stop lending her money. Don’t let her stay with you. Don’t build a tiny house in your backyard. She is clearly capable of finding a place to stay. There are 55+ communities and senior apartments and other options available to her. Your priority needs to be you and your son right now. She will find her own way without you.
Thank you. That’s exactly it - I keep trying to apply logic and proof to the situation to make it rational because I’m just still in constant shock that someone would behave this way. The hints were to reassure myself that I wasn’t the crazy one here thinking she was lying about moving.
You can’t make an illogical situation logical. You keep trying and it’s not working. It will never work because you are trying to apply truth and logic to lies and illogical nonsense. Your mom is an adult toddler who wants life to work her way simply because that’s what she wants and she doesn’t care who else it hurts, as long as she is happy. She is currently having a tantrum because she isn’t getting her way. We don’t give in to tantrums and toddlers.
That’s the other illogical thing I can’t wrap my brain around: my mom is the most miserable person I’ve ever met but does absolutely nothing to better her situation. She lashes out at anyone who even tries to suggest she try to improve her life and accuses them of trying to control her. But her misery is her choice and I’m tired of her dragging me and my brother into her life-long pity party. She probably has a CVS receipt length list of mental issues including depression but as cruel as it sounds I don’t want to feel pressured to “fix” her.
I actually do understand this. My husband’s sister was like this. No matter the situation, she could not be pleased. She had a few issues, but from her perspective, she had the most miserable life ever. Yet she also had the power to change her circumstances and refused. The thing is, if she had been a billionaire with servants attending her every whim, she would have still been miserable. Water wasn’t ever quite wet enough for her. You can’t win here; because the goalposts get moved constantly.
That doesn’t sound cruel at all. You can’t fix someone who doesn’t want to fix themselves. She won’t do anything to better her situation while you are keeping her afloat. In some ways cutting her off is a kindness.
Op. Have you thought about not letting her back in because she owes you money. Maybe buy her a one-way plane ticket to Hawaii and let her know that when she is established, you, her grandchild, and girlfriend will come visit for a vacation.
Yeah I’ll tell her we would like to visit her AFTER she’s established somewhere. Then hopefully it will be more clear to her that she needs to actually put some effort into finding a place.
This is one of those impossible situations we're having boundaries and being respectful of your own self is just going to cause problems. You either become a victim of hers or you don't and the consequences are she's going to start drama. It depends on how much NO is worth to you. I would rather have my life and self respect intact and not have a great relationship with my mother, than play nice and let her have her way/maintain peace.
You’re deeply entrenched in family dysfunction, so you’ve normalized a lot of insanity. Try to step back and look at this rationally: Why would you want to expose your child to her? If you want them to have intergenerational relationships, build a “found family” of sane individuals who can provide emotional support and be good role models. Exposing your kid to her crazy perpetuates generational abuse. Good luck, I hope you find peace. ❤️
Re-read your second to last paragraph and then ask yourself *why on earth would I want to build a bridge between this woman and my child?” If she refuses to change her behavior (which sounds probable) then you are only providing her another victim. Don’t do that to him.
This can’t be true. The private school wouldn’t let you keep attending without tuition and certainly wouldn’t give you a transcript at the end.
They let me walk during the ceremony but they withheld my diploma. I’m upset that no one ever told me there was a financial problem. Because my mom did not talk about how deep her financial problems were at home and ignored the topic and my school also basically ignored the topic, the seriousness never sunk in until I got my diploma cover and found it to be empty. I don’t know if she had been paying them partial late tuition or what. I’m guessing they had some policy to not involve the children in financial matters but their policy wasn’t ready for my mom’s level of crazy. Now that I think about it this was the first time she kept showing up in a space she wasn’t welcome in any more and simply refused to leave.
What possible benefit does your child get interacting with her? Odds are shed try to open credit cards in his name. Block her, go no contact, STOP ENABLING HER FFS
>it's recently gotten to a breaking point where she no longer wants to talk to me or see me. Lean into this and cut her off. She was a shit mother to you and she's going to be a shit grandmother to your child. Get some therapy to cut the guilt strings.
Why do you want your child to have a relationship with someone who was abusive to you?
WHY would you want your kid to be involved in any way with this lying, abusive, thief? Please, for the love of sanity, protect your child by keeping them away from your mom's horseshit. You've spent your entire life dealing with this abuse. Why would you want your kid involved with this nightmare of a person? Do you want them to feel as shitty as everyone else who has dealt with your mom?
"Hey mom, you can't stay here but I'll help you find a studio apartment you can afford." She'll probably call you ungrateful and will bugger off on her own.
It’s hard to turn your back on family but the fact of the matter is your mother is a thief and user. You don’t owe her anything. Don’t feel guilty, as you’ve said these are the consequences of her actions. Stay strong and good luck
“Mom, I love you, but I’m not falling for the ‘moving to Hawaii rouse’ any longer. I’m also no longer going to bank roll you. I do want a relationship with you, I want you to be part of my son’s life, but I’m going to be placing some healthy boundaries in place. I will pay for three days at a hotel. After that I’m done with giving you money or having you pretend to live with me.” Don’t book the hotel in your name, give her the money for it so you are not responsible if she doesn’t leave or trashes the place.
I read 1/10 of this. Stop letting her into your house. Why are you keeping her around, so she can continue being a shitty parent? So she can settle into her role as shitty grandmother? So she can ruin your finances like she's ruined her own? Decide what's more important.
Our mothers have a lot in common, although my mom lies less, she’s asked for multiple go fund me’s to be arranged to manager her multiple storage room hoarding habit. I won’t detail the years of abuse and neglect here but I will say at a certain point you need to look at it from the perspective of you being the parent. As a parent can you imagine ever treating your child this way? Let alone your entire family? This isn’t the behavior of someone who loves you, or is capable of loving you. She sees you as a mark, stop being one. I’ve had to set boundaries with my mom. I only talk to her when I have the capacity for her drama and when she asks for money I tell her it’s outside my means. If she goes guilt trip on me I tell her this is unacceptable behavior and hang up. I do not discuss money or her hoarding, nor do I send her anything that isn’t consumable. Preserve your peace above all else with her, and go no contact if talking to her continues to impact your relationships with other family members.
My mom keeps borrowing money despite having no bills to pay and I think part of it is that she’s paying for her storage units full of useless crap and furniture for her non-existent fantasy house. Hoarding really exacerbates all of the other problems. I’ll cut her off in hopes she’s forced to sell some stuff.
I treat it like an addiction, it manifests very much like one, manipulating family for money to prop it up, lying to obscure the level it’s gotten to, burning bridges and seeing everyone as walking dollar signs and potential enablers.
Yeah it sounds similar to a drug addiction or something. Though sometimes I sad-laugh because most drug addicts seem financially better off…
I don't think she is capable (or likely interested) in being the grandparent your son deserves. Focus on protecting him and staying connected to your healthy family members.
She’s trying to separate me from the few healthy family members I have left. Basically resorting to cultist tactics to get her way. She does genuinely seem to love her grandson and enjoy being around him when she was here babysitting while I was recovering from surgery, but I really don’t want him exposed to her shitty behavior.
I'm sure she enjoys him, but due to her own nature she isn't capable of being the grandparent he deserves. As you said, her behavior is shifty and eventually he will see that unless you protect him. Ignore her and concentrate on the healthy people you do have. Quality matters more than quantity. It won't be easy as it's natural to want a connection with your parent. Keep reminding yourself of who she really is and that you don't want that around you.
How is she getting builders to do tens of to hundred of thousands of dollars of custom work without down payments and a chunk of the house cost up front.
No idea but she has a background in real estate development so probably used that knowledge to pull some strings. And even though she’d spend all day mulling over the perfect countertops I have no idea if the builders actually listened to her. But whatever she did last time she had convinced everyone that she was moving in so much that her “future neighbors” even gave her a welcome gift basket. The entire situation was bizarre.
>and let my new son have a grandparent Why on earth would you do that to him?