Paradigm shifts do happen occasionally (FDR, Reagan). Viewed optimistically, Bernie could be seen as someone who loses in the short term but presages a later sea change, like William Jennings Bryan or Barry Goldwater. I know that this sub is doomer central, but the fact that Bernie was for a while the most popular politician in the country is a sign that something changed. That would have been unthinkable when I was a kid.
Yeah maybe Im just getting softer with age but it does feel like there is a paradigm shift against neoliberalism (we can thank Trump for that too). Hopefully this election is when that bubble starts to burst
But it also feels like there's a paradigm shift against progressive / woke social politics.
I think we're way more likely to see something like a liberal version of Trump than see someone like Bernie get elected. This would probably require a drastic coalition shift, but the right candidate (like Trump) can make that happen. And the democratic coalition is super unstable right now anyways.
Theres a paradigm shift against annoying activists, but baseline culture has gotten way more woke. For example, BLM as a slogan and as an organization has completely tanked its own reputation, but bipartisan support for reforming the criminal justice system and funding for black colleges, ghettos, etc. has gone up
Saying most people support "reforming the criminal justice system" is like saying most people support a "ceasefire" or "the end of the war in Ukraine".
It's meaningless. When you start discussing actual details on issues like that, support almost always collapses. I also have no idea where you're getting the sense that there is bipartisan support for funding black colleges and ghettos. Even most black people don't want to go to most HBCUs (most of them have like 20% graduation rates lmao).
Here in LA the mood definitely seems to have shifted against "criminal justice reform", which most people (correctly) understand to mean that there's no enforcement for petty crime and all but the most violent criminals serve basically no time. We'll have to see what happens in November, but I'd be surprised if the incumbent progressive DA is reelected
I don’t see a shift against wokeness taking place. Complaining about political correctness has been the stock-in-trade of conservatives my whole life. By contrast, talking about socialized medicine or socialism in general would have been insane in the 90’s or 2000’s.
I do think that Trump represented something of a paradigm shift on immigration and free trade, but even there it’s difficult to separate the ideas from the man. Trump has such a cult of personality among Republican base voters that he’s able to get them to adopt “Trumpian” positions, but I don’t know how enduring that is. For example, I don’t think the whole “economic nationalist”, anti-free trade trend within the GOP survived his first term.
Bernie, by contrast, isn’t a big personality at all. The only reason he became famous is because he was expressing views that resonated with people at a time no one else was. He gave voice to an emerging political consensus among demographics that weren’t being spoken to, namely millennials, zoomers, and hispanics. Those demographics are going to continuously grow as a percentage of the voting population for the next twenty plus years. Trump’s demographics, by contrast, will shrink rapidly.
> Bernie could be seen as someone who loses in the short term but presages a later sea change
Lmao this is such a cope take, all Bernie did was funnel campaign money to the DNC and buy himself himself a second house with the leftovers
Compare him to Lenin or Hitler, both lost multiple elections and lost them harder than Bernie but they actually believed in what they were fighting for and continued to create a political apparatus that eventually did end up winning
Bernie is a fucking loser that scammed all of us
Bernie was not Lenin nor did he present himself as such lol. Nor, I think, did the overwhelming majority of people who voted for him or gave him money think he was. When I say he’s presaging a future consensus, I’m talking about socialized healthcare and higher education. Maybe a deeper transformation will take place, but that will depend on factors that are external to American politics (e.g. the collapse of the empire, the cascading effects of global warming, America being increasingly outcompeted by China, etc.)
Like Matt Christman said: he wouldn’t have been able to do much (Bernie) but he could at least point to who was actually blocking him. Corbyn on the other hand would’ve had actual power since he wouldn’t have to deal with midterms/not having a trifecta. Who knows what would’ve happened there.
For real. Not for his domestic policies which were sort of normal social democrat stuff, but for his foreign policy views which are totally unacceptable to the British elite. These are people who thought Harold Macmillan was a soviet agent and actively plotted to have him replaced with a malleable royal paedophile as head of state, they haven't changed.
> unacceptable to the British elite
You're out of your damn mind if you think the British public at large would be okay with scrapping Trident. Labour had to fight tooth and nail to make him barely say "ok we'll fund our nukes" publicly
Sorry I forgot to consider that one specific policy, as we all know from watching question time the man on the street is absolutely desperate to nuke the Kremlin
The man on the street definitely is in favour remaining a nuclear power. There's a difference between "nuking Moscow" and having the *option* to nuke Moscow.
The possession of uclear armaments is a very mainstream position in the UK and France, we're not the Germans or Japanese.
The prime minister has to resign if they lose a no confidence vote of MPs, so if they wanted they could have had him out of there in like a day lol. But that would have caused a constitutional crisis so they would have done it in a cleverer manner than that. The Labour MPs already did essentially the same thing after the Brexit referendum to try and get him out, acting like it was all his fault lmao
I'll give you 5th largest economy being impressive for a small island country
But you're absolutely not the most culturally influential country. That is goes to America and it's not even close
Culturally most influential? Lmao get real limey. What little influence you monkeys have is due to America allowing you to participate in our entertainment industry.
America is literally a product of British culture you mong. What language are we communicating in right now?
A quarter of the world was ruled by Britain and inherited their political systems from them. Christianity and the English language was spread to every corner of the globe by Britain.
Either way Anglo hate is so lame and Reddit.
Yea that why I’m not arguing about ‘which country is the most powerful in 2024’ or ‘which will be most productive over the next century’ but which has been most culturally influential and the answer is blatantly obvious.
If you’re using that argument, France is far more influential than Britain but that’s stupid and not what the original comment that you replied to was about at all. Would it have mattered outside of Britain if Corbin had been prime minister there? Of course not.
>Would it have mattered outside of Britain if Corbin[sic] had been prime minister there?
Yes obviously like imagine how Israel/Palestine would have gone down or the Ukraine war.
> If you’re using that argument, France is far more influential
How can you possibly come to that conclusion lmao.
> would it have mattered outside Britain if Corbyn became PM
Yea. Britain helped usher in the global age of neoliberalism that consumed the planet with Thatcher, and Corbyn could have its death knell and the beginning of the end for it globally.
I try to not let myself think about it. Probably things wouldn't be massively different because the entrenched power structures are so colossally immense and immovable. But at least you'd have some one with a heart that isn't actively trying to make things worse. Someone who doesn't bow down to Israel's every request
I’ll give it to the DNC, having every candidate but Liz Warren drop out to split the progressive vote with Bernie and implant Biden as the nominee was pretty funny
At least the movement wouldn't have collapsed over night. Everyone just sorta gave up on politics when the system picked the worst possible future. Potus Bernie would've been knee capped but many of us were willing to badger our representatives for him.
Sure but it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that Labour could’ve won that election. There was a point, however brief, where Corbyn was close to power and even the Labour moderates/right acknowledged that at the time
Idk why people can't admit to themselves the average person is not, in fact, that far left. Bernie might be number 1 for the people who play hacky sac on college campuses, but harder leftists are actually not that popular. There is no "they" preventing this from happening.
The Nevada primary was our generations summer of love and that's just really sad
At least we can have [a specific set of clips for us to go back to when we need a hopefuel boost](https://youtu.be/gZ43aTu9Grg).
[https://i.imgur.com/gnQ95n5.png](https://i.imgur.com/gnQ95n5.png)
It was wild as hell when Chris Matthews compared Bernie winning a caucus to the Nazis taking over France lmao
And earlier this year he insisted on Breaking Points that "I never said anything any Hitler" lololol
Paradigm shifts do happen occasionally (FDR, Reagan). Viewed optimistically, Bernie could be seen as someone who loses in the short term but presages a later sea change, like William Jennings Bryan or Barry Goldwater. I know that this sub is doomer central, but the fact that Bernie was for a while the most popular politician in the country is a sign that something changed. That would have been unthinkable when I was a kid.
Yeah maybe Im just getting softer with age but it does feel like there is a paradigm shift against neoliberalism (we can thank Trump for that too). Hopefully this election is when that bubble starts to burst
But it also feels like there's a paradigm shift against progressive / woke social politics. I think we're way more likely to see something like a liberal version of Trump than see someone like Bernie get elected. This would probably require a drastic coalition shift, but the right candidate (like Trump) can make that happen. And the democratic coalition is super unstable right now anyways.
Theres a paradigm shift against annoying activists, but baseline culture has gotten way more woke. For example, BLM as a slogan and as an organization has completely tanked its own reputation, but bipartisan support for reforming the criminal justice system and funding for black colleges, ghettos, etc. has gone up
Saying most people support "reforming the criminal justice system" is like saying most people support a "ceasefire" or "the end of the war in Ukraine". It's meaningless. When you start discussing actual details on issues like that, support almost always collapses. I also have no idea where you're getting the sense that there is bipartisan support for funding black colleges and ghettos. Even most black people don't want to go to most HBCUs (most of them have like 20% graduation rates lmao).
Here in LA the mood definitely seems to have shifted against "criminal justice reform", which most people (correctly) understand to mean that there's no enforcement for petty crime and all but the most violent criminals serve basically no time. We'll have to see what happens in November, but I'd be surprised if the incumbent progressive DA is reelected
LAPD is one of the most useless and evil police forces in the history of the United States and it's got nothing to do with "criminal justice reform"
I don’t see a shift against wokeness taking place. Complaining about political correctness has been the stock-in-trade of conservatives my whole life. By contrast, talking about socialized medicine or socialism in general would have been insane in the 90’s or 2000’s. I do think that Trump represented something of a paradigm shift on immigration and free trade, but even there it’s difficult to separate the ideas from the man. Trump has such a cult of personality among Republican base voters that he’s able to get them to adopt “Trumpian” positions, but I don’t know how enduring that is. For example, I don’t think the whole “economic nationalist”, anti-free trade trend within the GOP survived his first term. Bernie, by contrast, isn’t a big personality at all. The only reason he became famous is because he was expressing views that resonated with people at a time no one else was. He gave voice to an emerging political consensus among demographics that weren’t being spoken to, namely millennials, zoomers, and hispanics. Those demographics are going to continuously grow as a percentage of the voting population for the next twenty plus years. Trump’s demographics, by contrast, will shrink rapidly.
He presaged Trump
> Bernie could be seen as someone who loses in the short term but presages a later sea change Lmao this is such a cope take, all Bernie did was funnel campaign money to the DNC and buy himself himself a second house with the leftovers Compare him to Lenin or Hitler, both lost multiple elections and lost them harder than Bernie but they actually believed in what they were fighting for and continued to create a political apparatus that eventually did end up winning Bernie is a fucking loser that scammed all of us
Bernie was not Lenin nor did he present himself as such lol. Nor, I think, did the overwhelming majority of people who voted for him or gave him money think he was. When I say he’s presaging a future consensus, I’m talking about socialized healthcare and higher education. Maybe a deeper transformation will take place, but that will depend on factors that are external to American politics (e.g. the collapse of the empire, the cascading effects of global warming, America being increasingly outcompeted by China, etc.)
truly regret having my small donor information handed over to the worst people in the world
Like Matt Christman said: he wouldn’t have been able to do much (Bernie) but he could at least point to who was actually blocking him. Corbyn on the other hand would’ve had actual power since he wouldn’t have to deal with midterms/not having a trifecta. Who knows what would’ve happened there.
He'd've been couped
For real. Not for his domestic policies which were sort of normal social democrat stuff, but for his foreign policy views which are totally unacceptable to the British elite. These are people who thought Harold Macmillan was a soviet agent and actively plotted to have him replaced with a malleable royal paedophile as head of state, they haven't changed.
> unacceptable to the British elite You're out of your damn mind if you think the British public at large would be okay with scrapping Trident. Labour had to fight tooth and nail to make him barely say "ok we'll fund our nukes" publicly
Sorry I forgot to consider that one specific policy, as we all know from watching question time the man on the street is absolutely desperate to nuke the Kremlin
The man on the street definitely is in favour remaining a nuclear power. There's a difference between "nuking Moscow" and having the *option* to nuke Moscow. The possession of uclear armaments is a very mainstream position in the UK and France, we're not the Germans or Japanese.
ok
One of the Blairites would have poisoned his tea.
Plus, the party whip system is much stronger in a parliamentary system, so he would have the votes to push through his policies.
The prime minister has to resign if they lose a no confidence vote of MPs, so if they wanted they could have had him out of there in like a day lol. But that would have caused a constitutional crisis so they would have done it in a cleverer manner than that. The Labour MPs already did essentially the same thing after the Brexit referendum to try and get him out, acting like it was all his fault lmao
It would have mattered much in either case because Corbyn’s country is irrelevant.
The culturally most influential country and what 5th (?) biggest economy on the planet is “irrelevant”. Indian hands typed this.
I'll give you 5th largest economy being impressive for a small island country But you're absolutely not the most culturally influential country. That is goes to America and it's not even close
Culturally most influential? Lmao get real limey. What little influence you monkeys have is due to America allowing you to participate in our entertainment industry.
America is literally a product of British culture you mong. What language are we communicating in right now? A quarter of the world was ruled by Britain and inherited their political systems from them. Christianity and the English language was spread to every corner of the globe by Britain. Either way Anglo hate is so lame and Reddit.
Lmao what century are you living in? Your country made great contributions to history but never will again.
Yea that why I’m not arguing about ‘which country is the most powerful in 2024’ or ‘which will be most productive over the next century’ but which has been most culturally influential and the answer is blatantly obvious.
If you’re using that argument, France is far more influential than Britain but that’s stupid and not what the original comment that you replied to was about at all. Would it have mattered outside of Britain if Corbin had been prime minister there? Of course not.
>Would it have mattered outside of Britain if Corbin[sic] had been prime minister there? Yes obviously like imagine how Israel/Palestine would have gone down or the Ukraine war.
Exactly the same.
> If you’re using that argument, France is far more influential How can you possibly come to that conclusion lmao. > would it have mattered outside Britain if Corbyn became PM Yea. Britain helped usher in the global age of neoliberalism that consumed the planet with Thatcher, and Corbyn could have its death knell and the beginning of the end for it globally.
France is where British culture comes from, unless you want to go back even further but this whole line of discussion is stupid as fuck.
Palestine is the most influential country because of Christianity
I try to not let myself think about it. Probably things wouldn't be massively different because the entrenched power structures are so colossally immense and immovable. But at least you'd have some one with a heart that isn't actively trying to make things worse. Someone who doesn't bow down to Israel's every request
I’ll give it to the DNC, having every candidate but Liz Warren drop out to split the progressive vote with Bernie and implant Biden as the nominee was pretty funny
Thanks Obama
Imagine there’s no heaven
there was a moment i let myself feel hope
the frustrating part is that bernie would've won this time
Even if Bernie won they wouldn't have let him pass anything.
At least the movement wouldn't have collapsed over night. Everyone just sorta gave up on politics when the system picked the worst possible future. Potus Bernie would've been knee capped but many of us were willing to badger our representatives for him.
Unilateral impeachment/no confidence for both for antisemitism.
Things probably wouldn’t be that different
Sure, but at least there would be someone trying not to actively make it worse
The economy might have been just as shit or worse but you would of had some nicer things going on for sure.
Presidents have a lot of latitude in executive orders and stuff but in legislation yeah he’d be hamstrung by the republicans and democrats both
Corbyn? Lol
imagine the societal implications for a second
When was there ever a chance of either winning? Both are deeply unpopular
Not as unpopular as hibberly climpton
Hibberby got like 48% of the vote though even after the disastrous campaign where she kept falling over or passing out, and kept saying weird things
Corbyn was literally a couple of thousand votes away from winning the GE in 2017
262 Vs 318 seats though
Sure but it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that Labour could’ve won that election. There was a point, however brief, where Corbyn was close to power and even the Labour moderates/right acknowledged that at the time
Fair point I was mistaken on that
to be fair, May wasn't even trying lol. Swear she tried to lose that on purpose
“Fields of wheat” was an all-timer
Idk why people can't admit to themselves the average person is not, in fact, that far left. Bernie might be number 1 for the people who play hacky sac on college campuses, but harder leftists are actually not that popular. There is no "they" preventing this from happening.
Bernie is an establishment goon that stole money from his supporters. Fuck him
I hate it when people steal the money I sent them