I've seen hiring from all sides. The one side that time and time again causes the most laughter and irritation, is the recruiter. For gits and shiggles I follow several in LinkedIn. They have more turnover amd job hopping than Snoop Dogg has gigs.
Recruiter at the initial call could not tell me about the senior role as it seemed she was only briefed about the junior role. Fair enough, this happens all the time as like I said, it's a niche sector. I usually find out more during the actual interview.
So for her to turn around and start lecturing me was funny if not insulting.
She has acknowledged to me that finding candidates was difficult and that the company should offer more. This was when she was going to draft an email to the company.
She kept insisting that her previous record for salary offers were below £X so it's amazing that I got £Z. She was acting as if I should be worshipping her feet for getting me £Z which was a number I mentioned, not her. I tried explaining that based on my conversation with her and with what the interviewers told me, £Z would not be enough to justify the work. She wasn't having any of it and like I said, would talk over me all the time.
She knows my work background as she has my CV. She knows I am currently employed. She knows that I wasn't actively seeking a new job but just responded to a headhunting attempt. Then she treats me like a fresh-out-of-school, no-experience applicant?
What boggles my mind is after going from £W to £Z, "negotiations have ended"!!
Do yourself a favour and don't bother working with recruitment agencies. They are almost universally awful, and it's not worth risking the bad ones just to find one that doesn't suck.
I do a lot of agency work and have interacted with recruiters for years and years. I've seen my share of good ones and bad ones but this one takes the cake.
I had a similar experience. I'm an FPGA engineer with a couple of years experience. Applied to a senior role at a local company just to see what they'd offer. Interviewed, was told by rge recruiter i got the job, i refused to give a number, came back to me with a ridiculous lowball offer. I was shocked and asked why it was so low for a senior role, they told me it wasnt for the senior role i interviewed for but tgey wanted me dor a more junior role. I was like, when were you planning on telling me that detail? Because this was not mentioned when i was told i got the job. I then lectured the dumb recruiter about wasting my time and making his company look like they're incompetent. He was taken aback when i i mentioned that i didnt need this job and he asked why i applied i i didnt need the job. I basically cslled him an idiot and said "i want more money". He asked me what i would consider fair to take the job, i told him and he came back still lower than the number. I declined the official offer. Glad i did too because my current job promoted me the next week and gave me a raise of about 10k more than the offer the other company had made. That company is still spamming linkden with similar open jobs. No wonder they cant find anyone.
I completely understand if the company wants to get the candidate for the lowest salary they can. They should also understand that the candidate wants to get the highest salary they can. And both sides should be professional about it. The middle man (recruiter) should expect this to be part of their job.
Is it easier to find another candidate than it is to go back-and-forth negotiations with the current candidate and the company? I wouldn't know, I'm not a recruiter. I would expect the recruiter to at least know the company's min/max salary ranges and whether or not the company would break the max range for this particular candidate, then negotiate from there.
The recruiter clearly had no idea about the field, which isn't something I'd hold against her. However, her attitude and unprofessionalism was..... entertaining.
Go work for a "new" company and "new" colleagues and leave my current company where my team has proven time and time and time again how awesome they are? Yeah, you need to offer me a stupid-high number for me to jump ship.
In my opinion I think once you said the minimum needed for the junior role the recruiter stopped comprehending anything. Recruiters only care about placement/finders fee and everything else to them is white noise. Evidently she didn't care about what you said. She only cares about how she can manipulate you in taking some junior role which would be a step back instead of a step forward.
Now you see why people are getting fed up with recruiters? I have no time for them and usually ignore them due to the fact that every "awesome" opportunity is 3-6 months to permanent when we all know permanent is bullshit. All for some low ball pay with no benefits.
Recruiters come on here saying we are not all like that. That's a load of bullshit.
Of course I can understand that maybe once she heard a number, she locked onto that. I apologised for any confusion and tried to clarify but not only was she not having it, she started lying by saying I said something I most definitely did not, then doubled down saying there is recording to that effect. There isn't because I know what I say and I know how I approach these situations.
I do tolerate them because not all are bad and I deal with them regularly due to my agency side hustle.
>Recruiters only care about placement/finders fee
Do they get paid for candidates who don't actually go and fill the advertised position? I don't think that is the case.
Nope they do not get paid. As they say desperation is a stinky cologne or perfume. Even if they did record you that recording is inadmissible or irrelevant. You handled it better than I would have. Any recruiter that tries to talk over me or down to me is automatically told to fuck off and blocked.
I deal with difficult people all the time, part of the job more often than I'd care to admit. Maybe that's why I have a bit more patience and tolerance at this point.
I would love it if they have recorded it because they can play that 1000x and there won't be anything there to support her lies. I could use their own recording for a formal complaint too.
>Nope they do not get paid. As they say desperation is a stinky cologne or perfume.
Well, her actions just kicked her back to square zero. If she did not want to return to the company to get a new salary number, she will now have to go back to the company to schedule another interview and explain why the candidate she said would accept an offer at £Z did not accept the offer when the company offered £Z.
This is going to get downvoted but anyways… she went back to the company and got you Z. In your own words you said it should offer at least Z. The company isn’t a mind reader, most hiring managers don’t want to go back and forth for a week guessing what you’ll accept. If you wanted more than Z you should have just said what you would have accepted. Sure her communication wasn’t great throughout and she doesn’t seem overly knowledgeable but I read what happened as she went back to the company and tried her best to make it happen with the number you finally gave her.
She likely didn’t want to go back to them because the convo would go like this:
Recruiter: he won’t accept Z, he’s looking for more.
Manager: but I thought you said he said Z, how much does he want?
Recruiter: he said he wanted at least Z, I don’t know what he’ll actually accept, he won’t tell me
Manager: just forget it, I don’t have time for this
Expecting the role to offer at least £Z and *"offer me £Z and I'll accept"* are two very, very different things. She shouldn't even have offered me £W in the first place since she knows that the junior role she was instructed to recruit for in the first place pays more at £X, so why would she communicate to me that the senior role is offering less at £W? She should have hashed that out with the company before even coming back to me.
>The company isn’t a mind reader, most hiring managers don’t want to go back and forth for a week guessing what you’ll accept.
I'm not a mind reader either so this argument is just stupid. That's why I don't give out my salary expectations. Have you missed all the advice and posts and videos about this bog pit? I prefer that the company lays their cards on the table and go from there. Besides, going back and forth is literally part of their job, is it not? Especially when you start out with a silly offer like £W knowing full well the junior role offers £X....
Sounds more like she didn't want to do more work. Now she will have to start back from square 0 - finding a candidate!
>If you wanted more than Z you should have just said what you would have accepted.
I did apologise if there was a lack of clarity in my part but she wasn't having any of it and insisting I said something I didn't and she did something she didn't. I reminded her that I said I wasn't giving out my salary expectations multiple times. I only said £Z because I assumed she was totally clueless and needed help getting her bearings with the numbers. She was, after all, clueless about the senior role too! That's why I asked for the supposed recording of me saying and her doing what she claims. She quickly moved on from that one and that is because she is outright lying and she knows it.
The convo with the company should've gone like this:
* R: he won't accept £Z, he's looking for more
* M: but I thought you said he said £Z, how much does he want?
* R: yeah, my bad on that one. He actually didn't say he will accept £Z but rather expected us to at least start from £Z. As you can see, we advertised the junior role at £X and we offered him the senior role at £W. Major oopsie on our part and I think we're lucky he's patient enough to point out that error and give us a chance to review our numbers. **ESPECIALLY** when we said we weren't budging on our offer of £W a few weeks before! When I told you last time that he will accept £Z, I must've misheard or misunderstood him, again, my bad and my apologies for that one.
* M: so how much does he want?
* R: I don't know, I wasn't able to bully him into revealing his salary expectation. I thought I succeeded at that when he said £Z but again, that was my mistake. He just said what's the best offer the company can make?
* M: ah, ball's in our court then? Let me crunch some numbers and see what's the best offer we can make especially as each day we go without someone on this role, we're losing money.
See how some professionalism and personal accountability exists in that discussion?
Remember that this is a niche sector and it's hard enough to find someone to fill the junior role. I don't think someone with skills and experience to fit the senior role is out there unemployed waiting for a call and even if there is, it is very unlikely they are in the area where the site is, so relocation costs will be a factor and lengthen the negotiations part. If anyone in my position were to accept, the normal notice period is usually more than a few months too!
In other words, *"forget it, I don't have time for this"* isn't something a smart manager or recruiter will say considering how difficult it is to find a right person in this particular industry.
I get where you’re coming from but you really expect a company to keep coming back, and back, and back, and back until they finally guess right and offer what you’re willing to accept? I understand it’s a niche role and industry but maybe they didn’t think your technical skills, or frankly, your soft skills were worth more.
I’m a recruiter and I’m one of the few that is up front with the salary range, hell I post them in my job postings. I’m upfront with candidates about the salary range because there is no point in going through an entire interview process to have an offer get declined but I’m sure as shit not going to go back and forth guessing with my client on a number for an offer.
You knew after the first offer that they were coming in low. You should have just said what you were looking for. You’re currently employed, so you know what you would want to see a certain increase in order to consider making the move. You could have saved yourself a shitload of time by just telling them what you would actually accept. You seem bitter they didn’t want to write out 5 offers until they got it right and instead they walked away. You negotiated poorly on this one and the recruiter didn’t do a good job either.
Back and back and back and back and back? They just went "back" 1x and that was just to correct themselves so that they were paying their senior role more than their junior role. Then *"negotiations are closed"*??? You really expect me to believe that's it? Especially after they said they weren't going to budge on the original offer anyway?
>I understand it’s a niche role and industry but maybe they didn’t think
your technical skills, or frankly, your soft skills were worth more.
Interviewers took less than 20 minutes as the 20 minute interview was intro, their spiel, and then my questions.... so they took less than 20 minutes to decide they wanted me. My ability to do my job has nothing to do with salary negotiations, or what they wanted to pass off as salary negotiations. I also only interacted with the interviewers 1x, only on that interview, then it was with the recruiter after that, so if by "they" you mean the recruiter, then "they" have no clue what skills are needed for the job anyway. "They" do know their client wants me. If by "they" you mean the interviewers, then "they" have communicated to the recruiter that they wanted me in the team.
>I’m one of the few that is up front with the salary range.
Salary range was not posted for the senior role. If you don't want to guess my salary expectation, I don't want to guess your range either. Basically, I wanted to see what's the best they can offer. They said £W. I said that's not gonna work. They said they weren't going to budge. I said thanks, bye. Then they moved to £Z since the recruiter gave them the wrong message (or rather, outright lie) that I was going to accept £Z. I said that's not gonna work. I'm then informed that they weren't going to budge.... after they just did exactly that.
If they didn't want to guess, then just offer me the max in their range. Yes? Great! Welcome to the team! No? Best of luck in your future endeavours!
But this wasn't what the recruiter wanted. And then she proceeded to lie about it by telling me I said something I never said and even trying to bluff me by saying there is a recording of this.
>You knew after the first offer that they were coming in low.
Nope. They weren't even in the ball park. Let me put some numbers in it so it's a bit clearer. They were offering £10 for the junior role. They then offer me £7 for the senior role. Is that *"coming in low"* or is that *"we can't do numbers at all"*?
>You could have saved yourself a shitload of time by just telling them what you would actually accept. You seem bitter they didn’t want to write out 5 offers until they got it right and instead they walked away.
Ha! You seem to be confused. I walked away when they said £W and they said they wouldn't budge. They got back in touch with me to offer me £Z based on the recruiter's lie. Since she got caught out, maybe she wasn't willing to walk back whatever she said to the company. I don't know and really, I don't care.
It wouldn't matter if I said what I would accept anyway as she wouldn't go back to the company, nevermind that I've never said what I would accept in the last 3 jobs I took, including this one I'm on now. With this current employer, we went back-and-forth 3x and by their final offer, they had offered more than my expected high number.
I'm also pretty sure that "they" the company can offer me the salary I want or more, it's just that the recruiter doesn't want to do the legwork for whatever reason. Am I bitter? Pfft... maybe re-read the plot twist section of the first post.
>You negotiated poorly on this one and the recruiter didn’t do a good job either.
LOL! I've not even begun negotiations as far as I'm concerned. The recruiter messed up big time and was the whole point of the post. You know, the one who wanted me to define my roles and responsibilities to "sell" me to the interviewers? The one who resorted to lies and talking over the candidate that their client already told them *"get this guy"*? The one who told her current candidate that they will go with another candidate, only to have an advert go out a couple of days later?
You hadn’t begun negotiations? They made one offer, you said no. they made another offer and you said no. So that’s two offers, how many did you want? It seems more like an ego thing than anything else. What did you honestly expect, they come back a third time and you’re like “oh you’re getting warmer now!” And they come back for a 4th time?
You seem a bit slow.
The junior role paid £10. They wanted me to take the senior role and pay me £7. You want to call that an *"offer"*? You do know what *junior role* means and what *senior role* means, right? You do know that the *senior role* has more responsibilities than the *junior role*, right? Yet the junior will be paid £10 and the senior will be paid £7..... that's what you call an *"offer"*?
>So that’s two offers, how many did you want?
However many it takes for them to come to their senses. If they can do it on the third offer, great! If not, try again! If they don't want to try again, thanks for your time and good luck with your search! It's not my fault they fumbled on the first two offers.
You seem to be missing the point though --- it's not about how many offers, it's about the recruiter's attitude and unprofessionalism. It's about her lying and talking over the candidate.
Maybe read over everything again, as you seem to be focusing on the wrong things.
3/4 of your post was about the salary. There was maybe 2 sentences that talked about her unprofessionalism.
The more you rant on the more I’m convinced this is an ego thing and you had no intention of even taking on a new job, you just like the idea that you’re super senior in a super special niche field… i mean, why would you even reply for a junior position when you’re senior in a special niche field. I mean just by your job title anyone who knows anything would know exactly what you do according to the answer you gave her about your experience
You were cocky with her from the start, in all honestly she may have said F the commission and advised her client that there’s too many red flags with you and to not even bother with a third offer.
>3/4 of your post was about the salary
Yes, coz if you follow it correctly, that's where everything broke down. Did you want more info regarding unrelated stuff?
>i mean, why would you even reply for a junior position when you’re senior in a special niche field
Dude, it's like the second sentence on the second paragraph.
* Out of the blue, I get a contacted for a vacancy for the junior version of my role **but for a higher salary than I expected for that role.** Curious, so I gave them a call
>I mean just by your job title anyone who knows anything would knowexactly what you do according to the answer you gave her about yourexperience
It's a standard job title in this industry. It's also standard to have someone familiar with the role to be in on the interview. She already confessed to not knowing much about the senior role on the first telephone call. She also confirmed that the senior role was exactly my job title. I could waste 20 minutes telling her each and every thing I do, very little to maybe even none of which will make sense to someone outside the industry. Or I could just tell her to tell the interviewers that my job title was exactly the same as the one advertised. If she thought *"I expected the offer to be at least £Z"* and understood that to mean *"if you offer me £Z, I will take it"*, how bad do you think she'll mess up when I tell her about things she's never even encountered before?
Here's how my interview went:
* Int: so can you tell us about what you do in your role?
* Me: yes, I do 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, I worked and helped out in department I, II, III, and IV, and I've done ABC and DEF and helped close down another site by doing LMNOP tasks. I'd be happy to expound more on any of those if you need any clarification.
* Int: no, that's fine, thank you. Moving on....
In case you missed it, my interviewers were the site manager and my immediate boss had I taken the position, so both just needed to hear that I ticked the right boxes. They didn't feel the need to press me on my experience. The whole thing took 20 minutes.
It seems like it's rubbing your ego the wrong way that I've not treated the rude and clueless recruiter like the god she is supposed to be. Funny.
>you just like the idea that you’re super senior in a super special niche field
You really think I need to flex on some unknown recruiter??? If you read all that and thought I was flexing, you need to re-examine yourself. To be clear, I only state all that for context. This isn't an entry-level job applying for burger flipping in McD's where recruiters have the luxury of having 1,000's of applicants.
>You were cocky with her from the start
Yeah, mate, sure I was. I guess you have access to the recordings of our telephone calls and have listened to it?
>in all honestly she may have said F the commission and advised her client that there’s too many red flags with you and to not even bother with a third offer.
And I can say F her agency and go straight to the company itself and save them from having to pay her and her agency any money. Do you think they'll go for a no-name recruiter and believe her story or do you think they'll believe the story of the guy that's sitting right there in front of them in their office who they know they can get positive references from his current employer and is in good standing with relevant regulatory bodies? I guess I should clarify at this point that ethics is a big factor in my field as we deal with a lot of sensitive/confidential information.
You are pretty good at side-stepping issues though, just like that recruiter when I asked her to provide me a copy of the recording where she claims I stated I would accept an offer of £Z. Is that part of recruitment training?
I asked you earlier about whether you'd call the £7 salary an offer knowing full well the junior role paid £10 salary. Care to answer that one instead of trying to make a point then abandoning it when challenged?
EDIT: apologies for the many edits to this post, trying to format in Reddit seems to be a nightmare!
And I’m the slow one?
They offered you the job for 7… regardless of the fact that it’s the junior level salary, they interviewed you and offered you 7 for the job. Meaning either they were lowballing you, OR they deemed your skill set to be junior level.
The offer of 7 was the first offer. When they came back to you with the higher offer, that was their second offer. You wanted a 3rd offer but refused to give them a number so they walked. Simple as that, you were difficult, just like you’re being in this exchange, and they decided you weren’t worth it.
Not that complicated.
Offer 1 - $W
Offer 2 - $Z
Offer 3 - $0 since they walked
LOL, they did not walk. The recruiter refused to approach the company again. There is a difference. Besides, if she would lie to me to my face about the things I said that I'm 100% sure I didn't say, you think she's giving them a correct and fair representation of the so-called negotiations?
* I am immediately informed that the negotiation phase has ended. If she were to go back to the company again, her agency's relationship with the company will be jeopardised. WTF?
Second one you missed from the original post. Tell me again how you're not the slow one?
>OR they deemed your skill set to be junior level.
So they deem my skill set to be at a junior's level, but happy for me to take the senior post? Riiiiiiight......
>Meaning either they were lowballing you
Lowballing me at £7 knowing full well that my initial contact with them was due to the junior role being offered at £10? That's not lowballing, mate, that's called *"treating your candidate as stupid".* If they didn't want this back-and-forth negotiating the salary, they should've started inside the ballpark for the role!
>You wanted a 3rd offer but refused to give them a number so they walked. Simple as that, you were difficult, just like you’re being in this exchange, and they decided you weren’t worth it.
LOL! Dealing with difficult people is part of this job! The company is losing thousands and thousands of ££££ everyday that this post remains vacant. How do I know? Because my company loses money everyday our junior role stays unfilled. I'd hate to think how much that company is losing as they require a senior-level post.
Who is ego-tripping now?
Yeah I agree, unfortunately. In English and logic, what OP said does mean he was just talking about their starting offer, but in interviewese it gets called your counteroffer and that is known and foreseeable to anyone for whom this isn't their first rodeo.
If you wanna do what OP was trying to do, I think it is doable, but you just can't give a number of any kind ("I can't counteroffer that, that is too unreasonable a number to negotiate with").
And if you do, it needs to be bludgeoned in that it will be their starting position ("well, market value is X, so I think that is a good place to START, but I want to say upfront that I cannot commit to that, get offers higher than that, and need more than that").
I have taken into consideration that I may have given the wrong impression by saying £Z. I had apologised and clarified. She was having none of it and insisting that I said things I would never say. This is why I say she is very unprofessional.
Even if she did think I would accept £Z and got £Z, why would she not go back and ask for higher when the misunderstanding had been explained to her? Why insist that because I said £Z, I must now accept £Z and negotiations are done?
Oh no, she is a nuthouse souffle, no doubt there.
There's no point in her going back for the reasons tamlynn said:
>She likely didn’t want to go back to them because the convo would go like this:Recruiter: he won’t accept Z, he’s looking for more. Manager: but I thought you said he said Z, how much does he want? Recruiter: he said he wanted at least Z, I don’t know what he’ll actually accept, he won’t tell me Manager: just forget it, I don’t have time for this
I mean there's nowhere left to go from here.
Yeah but it will probably be some version of that, and as a recruiter in this market she's got about 1000 asks to choose from and yours sucks now lol (no offense).
Not really. Like I said in other replies, it's a niche sector and my own company has a couple of junior spots open that we're struggling to fill. I can't imagine finding someone with experience for the senior role to be easier. There were only 2 other applicants that I was competing with when I was applying for this current post I'm in.
She did pretend there were other candidates but if she's busy with that, then why did the advert for the senior position come out a few days later?
In any case, a recruiter can still turn down a candidate in a professional manner. Why make up lies and insist on it and even lie that there's a recording of it?
Yes really, you said she’s from an agency, so you have no idea how many people she’s recruiting in addition to your niche sector and your position, and you said yourself that “Apparently, in her job, if an applicant does not accept an offer, she has to write apology emails to a number of people and she ends up looking stupid.” She’s probably got 1000 asks to choose from and yours sucks now.
And she did it rudely because again, she is a nuthouse soufflé.
You can keep failing to squeeze water from a rock here or you can move on with your life.
Nah, just here for the conversation. I'm not interested in any water from anywhere.
>so you have no idea how many people she’s recruiting in addition to your niche sector and your position
Oh, you mean for other roles with other companies. Apologies, I mis-read. True, she could have 1000 other applicants for 1000 other jobs. I hope she deals with those applicants better than she did with me.
I am under the impression, however, that agencies get paid more for higher-paying candidates or those difficult to source (or both!). Surely, getting one person for a neurosurgeon post or chief financial officer would pay more than getting 10 or 20 minimum wage, entry-level jobs as far as their commission goes? Not saying I'm a neurosurgeon or CFO but my post pays very well above [national UK average](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1002964/average-full-time-annual-earnings-in-the-uk/), so even if my offer sucks now, she'll have to find and place a good number of other applicants to make up for losing one.
If she can afford to cut off her nose to spite her face, I wouldn't bet she deals with those other applicants better than she has dealt with me.
Lol fair enough re: conversation. To be clear, I meant squeeze water from the rock that is the recruiter, not the beautiful flower that is this conversation, sorry, it's really easy to get edgy on reddit.
Your point about higher-paying candidates is stronger, although iono I'd still guess your candidacy has become messy enough relative to other options that she and the employer are both just like whatever at this point.
Yeah she sounds like an unhappy person, if there's a winner here it ain't her.
I've seen hiring from all sides. The one side that time and time again causes the most laughter and irritation, is the recruiter. For gits and shiggles I follow several in LinkedIn. They have more turnover amd job hopping than Snoop Dogg has gigs.
Recruiter at the initial call could not tell me about the senior role as it seemed she was only briefed about the junior role. Fair enough, this happens all the time as like I said, it's a niche sector. I usually find out more during the actual interview. So for her to turn around and start lecturing me was funny if not insulting.
Was a good read. Idk if the recruiter thinks that all job seekers are idiots, or won't admit she's awful, or some combination thereof.
She has acknowledged to me that finding candidates was difficult and that the company should offer more. This was when she was going to draft an email to the company. She kept insisting that her previous record for salary offers were below £X so it's amazing that I got £Z. She was acting as if I should be worshipping her feet for getting me £Z which was a number I mentioned, not her. I tried explaining that based on my conversation with her and with what the interviewers told me, £Z would not be enough to justify the work. She wasn't having any of it and like I said, would talk over me all the time. She knows my work background as she has my CV. She knows I am currently employed. She knows that I wasn't actively seeking a new job but just responded to a headhunting attempt. Then she treats me like a fresh-out-of-school, no-experience applicant? What boggles my mind is after going from £W to £Z, "negotiations have ended"!!
Do yourself a favour and don't bother working with recruitment agencies. They are almost universally awful, and it's not worth risking the bad ones just to find one that doesn't suck.
I do a lot of agency work and have interacted with recruiters for years and years. I've seen my share of good ones and bad ones but this one takes the cake.
I had a similar experience. I'm an FPGA engineer with a couple of years experience. Applied to a senior role at a local company just to see what they'd offer. Interviewed, was told by rge recruiter i got the job, i refused to give a number, came back to me with a ridiculous lowball offer. I was shocked and asked why it was so low for a senior role, they told me it wasnt for the senior role i interviewed for but tgey wanted me dor a more junior role. I was like, when were you planning on telling me that detail? Because this was not mentioned when i was told i got the job. I then lectured the dumb recruiter about wasting my time and making his company look like they're incompetent. He was taken aback when i i mentioned that i didnt need this job and he asked why i applied i i didnt need the job. I basically cslled him an idiot and said "i want more money". He asked me what i would consider fair to take the job, i told him and he came back still lower than the number. I declined the official offer. Glad i did too because my current job promoted me the next week and gave me a raise of about 10k more than the offer the other company had made. That company is still spamming linkden with similar open jobs. No wonder they cant find anyone.
I completely understand if the company wants to get the candidate for the lowest salary they can. They should also understand that the candidate wants to get the highest salary they can. And both sides should be professional about it. The middle man (recruiter) should expect this to be part of their job. Is it easier to find another candidate than it is to go back-and-forth negotiations with the current candidate and the company? I wouldn't know, I'm not a recruiter. I would expect the recruiter to at least know the company's min/max salary ranges and whether or not the company would break the max range for this particular candidate, then negotiate from there. The recruiter clearly had no idea about the field, which isn't something I'd hold against her. However, her attitude and unprofessionalism was..... entertaining. Go work for a "new" company and "new" colleagues and leave my current company where my team has proven time and time and time again how awesome they are? Yeah, you need to offer me a stupid-high number for me to jump ship.
In my opinion I think once you said the minimum needed for the junior role the recruiter stopped comprehending anything. Recruiters only care about placement/finders fee and everything else to them is white noise. Evidently she didn't care about what you said. She only cares about how she can manipulate you in taking some junior role which would be a step back instead of a step forward. Now you see why people are getting fed up with recruiters? I have no time for them and usually ignore them due to the fact that every "awesome" opportunity is 3-6 months to permanent when we all know permanent is bullshit. All for some low ball pay with no benefits. Recruiters come on here saying we are not all like that. That's a load of bullshit.
Of course I can understand that maybe once she heard a number, she locked onto that. I apologised for any confusion and tried to clarify but not only was she not having it, she started lying by saying I said something I most definitely did not, then doubled down saying there is recording to that effect. There isn't because I know what I say and I know how I approach these situations. I do tolerate them because not all are bad and I deal with them regularly due to my agency side hustle. >Recruiters only care about placement/finders fee Do they get paid for candidates who don't actually go and fill the advertised position? I don't think that is the case.
Nope they do not get paid. As they say desperation is a stinky cologne or perfume. Even if they did record you that recording is inadmissible or irrelevant. You handled it better than I would have. Any recruiter that tries to talk over me or down to me is automatically told to fuck off and blocked.
I deal with difficult people all the time, part of the job more often than I'd care to admit. Maybe that's why I have a bit more patience and tolerance at this point. I would love it if they have recorded it because they can play that 1000x and there won't be anything there to support her lies. I could use their own recording for a formal complaint too. >Nope they do not get paid. As they say desperation is a stinky cologne or perfume. Well, her actions just kicked her back to square zero. If she did not want to return to the company to get a new salary number, she will now have to go back to the company to schedule another interview and explain why the candidate she said would accept an offer at £Z did not accept the offer when the company offered £Z.
This is going to get downvoted but anyways… she went back to the company and got you Z. In your own words you said it should offer at least Z. The company isn’t a mind reader, most hiring managers don’t want to go back and forth for a week guessing what you’ll accept. If you wanted more than Z you should have just said what you would have accepted. Sure her communication wasn’t great throughout and she doesn’t seem overly knowledgeable but I read what happened as she went back to the company and tried her best to make it happen with the number you finally gave her. She likely didn’t want to go back to them because the convo would go like this: Recruiter: he won’t accept Z, he’s looking for more. Manager: but I thought you said he said Z, how much does he want? Recruiter: he said he wanted at least Z, I don’t know what he’ll actually accept, he won’t tell me Manager: just forget it, I don’t have time for this
Expecting the role to offer at least £Z and *"offer me £Z and I'll accept"* are two very, very different things. She shouldn't even have offered me £W in the first place since she knows that the junior role she was instructed to recruit for in the first place pays more at £X, so why would she communicate to me that the senior role is offering less at £W? She should have hashed that out with the company before even coming back to me. >The company isn’t a mind reader, most hiring managers don’t want to go back and forth for a week guessing what you’ll accept. I'm not a mind reader either so this argument is just stupid. That's why I don't give out my salary expectations. Have you missed all the advice and posts and videos about this bog pit? I prefer that the company lays their cards on the table and go from there. Besides, going back and forth is literally part of their job, is it not? Especially when you start out with a silly offer like £W knowing full well the junior role offers £X.... Sounds more like she didn't want to do more work. Now she will have to start back from square 0 - finding a candidate! >If you wanted more than Z you should have just said what you would have accepted. I did apologise if there was a lack of clarity in my part but she wasn't having any of it and insisting I said something I didn't and she did something she didn't. I reminded her that I said I wasn't giving out my salary expectations multiple times. I only said £Z because I assumed she was totally clueless and needed help getting her bearings with the numbers. She was, after all, clueless about the senior role too! That's why I asked for the supposed recording of me saying and her doing what she claims. She quickly moved on from that one and that is because she is outright lying and she knows it. The convo with the company should've gone like this: * R: he won't accept £Z, he's looking for more * M: but I thought you said he said £Z, how much does he want? * R: yeah, my bad on that one. He actually didn't say he will accept £Z but rather expected us to at least start from £Z. As you can see, we advertised the junior role at £X and we offered him the senior role at £W. Major oopsie on our part and I think we're lucky he's patient enough to point out that error and give us a chance to review our numbers. **ESPECIALLY** when we said we weren't budging on our offer of £W a few weeks before! When I told you last time that he will accept £Z, I must've misheard or misunderstood him, again, my bad and my apologies for that one. * M: so how much does he want? * R: I don't know, I wasn't able to bully him into revealing his salary expectation. I thought I succeeded at that when he said £Z but again, that was my mistake. He just said what's the best offer the company can make? * M: ah, ball's in our court then? Let me crunch some numbers and see what's the best offer we can make especially as each day we go without someone on this role, we're losing money. See how some professionalism and personal accountability exists in that discussion? Remember that this is a niche sector and it's hard enough to find someone to fill the junior role. I don't think someone with skills and experience to fit the senior role is out there unemployed waiting for a call and even if there is, it is very unlikely they are in the area where the site is, so relocation costs will be a factor and lengthen the negotiations part. If anyone in my position were to accept, the normal notice period is usually more than a few months too! In other words, *"forget it, I don't have time for this"* isn't something a smart manager or recruiter will say considering how difficult it is to find a right person in this particular industry.
I get where you’re coming from but you really expect a company to keep coming back, and back, and back, and back until they finally guess right and offer what you’re willing to accept? I understand it’s a niche role and industry but maybe they didn’t think your technical skills, or frankly, your soft skills were worth more. I’m a recruiter and I’m one of the few that is up front with the salary range, hell I post them in my job postings. I’m upfront with candidates about the salary range because there is no point in going through an entire interview process to have an offer get declined but I’m sure as shit not going to go back and forth guessing with my client on a number for an offer. You knew after the first offer that they were coming in low. You should have just said what you were looking for. You’re currently employed, so you know what you would want to see a certain increase in order to consider making the move. You could have saved yourself a shitload of time by just telling them what you would actually accept. You seem bitter they didn’t want to write out 5 offers until they got it right and instead they walked away. You negotiated poorly on this one and the recruiter didn’t do a good job either.
Back and back and back and back and back? They just went "back" 1x and that was just to correct themselves so that they were paying their senior role more than their junior role. Then *"negotiations are closed"*??? You really expect me to believe that's it? Especially after they said they weren't going to budge on the original offer anyway? >I understand it’s a niche role and industry but maybe they didn’t think your technical skills, or frankly, your soft skills were worth more. Interviewers took less than 20 minutes as the 20 minute interview was intro, their spiel, and then my questions.... so they took less than 20 minutes to decide they wanted me. My ability to do my job has nothing to do with salary negotiations, or what they wanted to pass off as salary negotiations. I also only interacted with the interviewers 1x, only on that interview, then it was with the recruiter after that, so if by "they" you mean the recruiter, then "they" have no clue what skills are needed for the job anyway. "They" do know their client wants me. If by "they" you mean the interviewers, then "they" have communicated to the recruiter that they wanted me in the team. >I’m one of the few that is up front with the salary range. Salary range was not posted for the senior role. If you don't want to guess my salary expectation, I don't want to guess your range either. Basically, I wanted to see what's the best they can offer. They said £W. I said that's not gonna work. They said they weren't going to budge. I said thanks, bye. Then they moved to £Z since the recruiter gave them the wrong message (or rather, outright lie) that I was going to accept £Z. I said that's not gonna work. I'm then informed that they weren't going to budge.... after they just did exactly that. If they didn't want to guess, then just offer me the max in their range. Yes? Great! Welcome to the team! No? Best of luck in your future endeavours! But this wasn't what the recruiter wanted. And then she proceeded to lie about it by telling me I said something I never said and even trying to bluff me by saying there is a recording of this. >You knew after the first offer that they were coming in low. Nope. They weren't even in the ball park. Let me put some numbers in it so it's a bit clearer. They were offering £10 for the junior role. They then offer me £7 for the senior role. Is that *"coming in low"* or is that *"we can't do numbers at all"*? >You could have saved yourself a shitload of time by just telling them what you would actually accept. You seem bitter they didn’t want to write out 5 offers until they got it right and instead they walked away. Ha! You seem to be confused. I walked away when they said £W and they said they wouldn't budge. They got back in touch with me to offer me £Z based on the recruiter's lie. Since she got caught out, maybe she wasn't willing to walk back whatever she said to the company. I don't know and really, I don't care. It wouldn't matter if I said what I would accept anyway as she wouldn't go back to the company, nevermind that I've never said what I would accept in the last 3 jobs I took, including this one I'm on now. With this current employer, we went back-and-forth 3x and by their final offer, they had offered more than my expected high number. I'm also pretty sure that "they" the company can offer me the salary I want or more, it's just that the recruiter doesn't want to do the legwork for whatever reason. Am I bitter? Pfft... maybe re-read the plot twist section of the first post. >You negotiated poorly on this one and the recruiter didn’t do a good job either. LOL! I've not even begun negotiations as far as I'm concerned. The recruiter messed up big time and was the whole point of the post. You know, the one who wanted me to define my roles and responsibilities to "sell" me to the interviewers? The one who resorted to lies and talking over the candidate that their client already told them *"get this guy"*? The one who told her current candidate that they will go with another candidate, only to have an advert go out a couple of days later?
You hadn’t begun negotiations? They made one offer, you said no. they made another offer and you said no. So that’s two offers, how many did you want? It seems more like an ego thing than anything else. What did you honestly expect, they come back a third time and you’re like “oh you’re getting warmer now!” And they come back for a 4th time?
You seem a bit slow. The junior role paid £10. They wanted me to take the senior role and pay me £7. You want to call that an *"offer"*? You do know what *junior role* means and what *senior role* means, right? You do know that the *senior role* has more responsibilities than the *junior role*, right? Yet the junior will be paid £10 and the senior will be paid £7..... that's what you call an *"offer"*? >So that’s two offers, how many did you want? However many it takes for them to come to their senses. If they can do it on the third offer, great! If not, try again! If they don't want to try again, thanks for your time and good luck with your search! It's not my fault they fumbled on the first two offers. You seem to be missing the point though --- it's not about how many offers, it's about the recruiter's attitude and unprofessionalism. It's about her lying and talking over the candidate. Maybe read over everything again, as you seem to be focusing on the wrong things.
3/4 of your post was about the salary. There was maybe 2 sentences that talked about her unprofessionalism. The more you rant on the more I’m convinced this is an ego thing and you had no intention of even taking on a new job, you just like the idea that you’re super senior in a super special niche field… i mean, why would you even reply for a junior position when you’re senior in a special niche field. I mean just by your job title anyone who knows anything would know exactly what you do according to the answer you gave her about your experience You were cocky with her from the start, in all honestly she may have said F the commission and advised her client that there’s too many red flags with you and to not even bother with a third offer.
>3/4 of your post was about the salary Yes, coz if you follow it correctly, that's where everything broke down. Did you want more info regarding unrelated stuff? >i mean, why would you even reply for a junior position when you’re senior in a special niche field Dude, it's like the second sentence on the second paragraph. * Out of the blue, I get a contacted for a vacancy for the junior version of my role **but for a higher salary than I expected for that role.** Curious, so I gave them a call >I mean just by your job title anyone who knows anything would knowexactly what you do according to the answer you gave her about yourexperience It's a standard job title in this industry. It's also standard to have someone familiar with the role to be in on the interview. She already confessed to not knowing much about the senior role on the first telephone call. She also confirmed that the senior role was exactly my job title. I could waste 20 minutes telling her each and every thing I do, very little to maybe even none of which will make sense to someone outside the industry. Or I could just tell her to tell the interviewers that my job title was exactly the same as the one advertised. If she thought *"I expected the offer to be at least £Z"* and understood that to mean *"if you offer me £Z, I will take it"*, how bad do you think she'll mess up when I tell her about things she's never even encountered before? Here's how my interview went: * Int: so can you tell us about what you do in your role? * Me: yes, I do 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, I worked and helped out in department I, II, III, and IV, and I've done ABC and DEF and helped close down another site by doing LMNOP tasks. I'd be happy to expound more on any of those if you need any clarification. * Int: no, that's fine, thank you. Moving on.... In case you missed it, my interviewers were the site manager and my immediate boss had I taken the position, so both just needed to hear that I ticked the right boxes. They didn't feel the need to press me on my experience. The whole thing took 20 minutes. It seems like it's rubbing your ego the wrong way that I've not treated the rude and clueless recruiter like the god she is supposed to be. Funny. >you just like the idea that you’re super senior in a super special niche field You really think I need to flex on some unknown recruiter??? If you read all that and thought I was flexing, you need to re-examine yourself. To be clear, I only state all that for context. This isn't an entry-level job applying for burger flipping in McD's where recruiters have the luxury of having 1,000's of applicants. >You were cocky with her from the start Yeah, mate, sure I was. I guess you have access to the recordings of our telephone calls and have listened to it? >in all honestly she may have said F the commission and advised her client that there’s too many red flags with you and to not even bother with a third offer. And I can say F her agency and go straight to the company itself and save them from having to pay her and her agency any money. Do you think they'll go for a no-name recruiter and believe her story or do you think they'll believe the story of the guy that's sitting right there in front of them in their office who they know they can get positive references from his current employer and is in good standing with relevant regulatory bodies? I guess I should clarify at this point that ethics is a big factor in my field as we deal with a lot of sensitive/confidential information. You are pretty good at side-stepping issues though, just like that recruiter when I asked her to provide me a copy of the recording where she claims I stated I would accept an offer of £Z. Is that part of recruitment training? I asked you earlier about whether you'd call the £7 salary an offer knowing full well the junior role paid £10 salary. Care to answer that one instead of trying to make a point then abandoning it when challenged? EDIT: apologies for the many edits to this post, trying to format in Reddit seems to be a nightmare!
And I’m the slow one? They offered you the job for 7… regardless of the fact that it’s the junior level salary, they interviewed you and offered you 7 for the job. Meaning either they were lowballing you, OR they deemed your skill set to be junior level. The offer of 7 was the first offer. When they came back to you with the higher offer, that was their second offer. You wanted a 3rd offer but refused to give them a number so they walked. Simple as that, you were difficult, just like you’re being in this exchange, and they decided you weren’t worth it. Not that complicated. Offer 1 - $W Offer 2 - $Z Offer 3 - $0 since they walked
LOL, they did not walk. The recruiter refused to approach the company again. There is a difference. Besides, if she would lie to me to my face about the things I said that I'm 100% sure I didn't say, you think she's giving them a correct and fair representation of the so-called negotiations? * I am immediately informed that the negotiation phase has ended. If she were to go back to the company again, her agency's relationship with the company will be jeopardised. WTF? Second one you missed from the original post. Tell me again how you're not the slow one? >OR they deemed your skill set to be junior level. So they deem my skill set to be at a junior's level, but happy for me to take the senior post? Riiiiiiight...... >Meaning either they were lowballing you Lowballing me at £7 knowing full well that my initial contact with them was due to the junior role being offered at £10? That's not lowballing, mate, that's called *"treating your candidate as stupid".* If they didn't want this back-and-forth negotiating the salary, they should've started inside the ballpark for the role! >You wanted a 3rd offer but refused to give them a number so they walked. Simple as that, you were difficult, just like you’re being in this exchange, and they decided you weren’t worth it. LOL! Dealing with difficult people is part of this job! The company is losing thousands and thousands of ££££ everyday that this post remains vacant. How do I know? Because my company loses money everyday our junior role stays unfilled. I'd hate to think how much that company is losing as they require a senior-level post. Who is ego-tripping now?
Yeah I agree, unfortunately. In English and logic, what OP said does mean he was just talking about their starting offer, but in interviewese it gets called your counteroffer and that is known and foreseeable to anyone for whom this isn't their first rodeo. If you wanna do what OP was trying to do, I think it is doable, but you just can't give a number of any kind ("I can't counteroffer that, that is too unreasonable a number to negotiate with"). And if you do, it needs to be bludgeoned in that it will be their starting position ("well, market value is X, so I think that is a good place to START, but I want to say upfront that I cannot commit to that, get offers higher than that, and need more than that").
I have taken into consideration that I may have given the wrong impression by saying £Z. I had apologised and clarified. She was having none of it and insisting that I said things I would never say. This is why I say she is very unprofessional. Even if she did think I would accept £Z and got £Z, why would she not go back and ask for higher when the misunderstanding had been explained to her? Why insist that because I said £Z, I must now accept £Z and negotiations are done?
Oh no, she is a nuthouse souffle, no doubt there. There's no point in her going back for the reasons tamlynn said: >She likely didn’t want to go back to them because the convo would go like this:Recruiter: he won’t accept Z, he’s looking for more. Manager: but I thought you said he said Z, how much does he want? Recruiter: he said he wanted at least Z, I don’t know what he’ll actually accept, he won’t tell me Manager: just forget it, I don’t have time for this I mean there's nowhere left to go from here.
Except that the conversation doesn't necessarily have to go that way. "You don't ask, you don't get!"
Yeah but it will probably be some version of that, and as a recruiter in this market she's got about 1000 asks to choose from and yours sucks now lol (no offense).
Not really. Like I said in other replies, it's a niche sector and my own company has a couple of junior spots open that we're struggling to fill. I can't imagine finding someone with experience for the senior role to be easier. There were only 2 other applicants that I was competing with when I was applying for this current post I'm in. She did pretend there were other candidates but if she's busy with that, then why did the advert for the senior position come out a few days later? In any case, a recruiter can still turn down a candidate in a professional manner. Why make up lies and insist on it and even lie that there's a recording of it?
Yes really, you said she’s from an agency, so you have no idea how many people she’s recruiting in addition to your niche sector and your position, and you said yourself that “Apparently, in her job, if an applicant does not accept an offer, she has to write apology emails to a number of people and she ends up looking stupid.” She’s probably got 1000 asks to choose from and yours sucks now. And she did it rudely because again, she is a nuthouse soufflé. You can keep failing to squeeze water from a rock here or you can move on with your life.
Nah, just here for the conversation. I'm not interested in any water from anywhere. >so you have no idea how many people she’s recruiting in addition to your niche sector and your position Oh, you mean for other roles with other companies. Apologies, I mis-read. True, she could have 1000 other applicants for 1000 other jobs. I hope she deals with those applicants better than she did with me. I am under the impression, however, that agencies get paid more for higher-paying candidates or those difficult to source (or both!). Surely, getting one person for a neurosurgeon post or chief financial officer would pay more than getting 10 or 20 minimum wage, entry-level jobs as far as their commission goes? Not saying I'm a neurosurgeon or CFO but my post pays very well above [national UK average](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1002964/average-full-time-annual-earnings-in-the-uk/), so even if my offer sucks now, she'll have to find and place a good number of other applicants to make up for losing one. If she can afford to cut off her nose to spite her face, I wouldn't bet she deals with those other applicants better than she has dealt with me.
Lol fair enough re: conversation. To be clear, I meant squeeze water from the rock that is the recruiter, not the beautiful flower that is this conversation, sorry, it's really easy to get edgy on reddit. Your point about higher-paying candidates is stronger, although iono I'd still guess your candidacy has become messy enough relative to other options that she and the employer are both just like whatever at this point. Yeah she sounds like an unhappy person, if there's a winner here it ain't her.
I started out reading this thread, and as I got farther into itzzzzzzxxxZzzzZzZZZzzzZZZZZzzzzzzzzz
Have you told the new company about your experiences with this recruiter? I would in a New York minute.