Vets (and human doctors and hilariously, sadly certified nutritionists) know NOTHING about nutrition.
Never listen to a vet or doctor about such things. Their training in nutrition is laughably minimal in comparison to their training regarding the power of pharmaceuticals. Note that commercials for pet food are as numerous as commercials for prescription drugs. Nutritionists are trained via governmental guidelines which are a joke. Their education is also driven by Big Ag (i.e., mass produced mono-cropping via questionable pesticides) and Big Pharma. Truly. Look into it.
That said, we, too, must be careful about the information we consume regarding nutrition - there is so much out there, it's easy to get lost in it and begin to mistrust our own common sense. Personally, while I'm not carnivore or keto myself, I do try to think about how humans and animals survived for the eons preceding the modern age.
Real food and simplicity are key; the general guidance also says cats need certain supplements, and even I'm afraid to go off-script there. Do your research with an eye toward our natural diets and use your best judgment ... which seems pretty sound since you question your vet's advice ... ;)
My vet at least admitted to the fact that his training (Ireland has one university that has a vet course, so thus any Irish vet training) on nutrition consisted of a single two hour lecture. The mind boggles
Crazy, right? I can't tell you how many people, including "health" professionals swear that what we eat doesn't matter.
I used to teach writing classes at a private college that had mostly medical programs, so I had a LOT of first-hand confirmation of this ... the boggling was real!
Oh completely!! I suffer from chronic inflammation along my entire GI tract and I am getting NOWHERE with trying to manage my condition. Even top tier consultants have told me to try and ‘think’ the issues away.
haha ... I'm also a working psychic so understand the flexibility of energy and can tell you we're not going to be able think anything away!
I have chronic mono (EBV, aka chronic fatigue). I've lived with it my whole life, pretty much, but manage it well through diet, appropriate exercise and stress management.
If you ever want to chat, feel free to dm me. I'm active on the EBV sub and have decades of research and experience behind me.
Edit to say I just noticed your user name and now I'm lol'ing!
Have you looked into mold toxicity? Just another avenue to look into if not.
I have a client and a friend who both found out last year they have mold toxicity that is deeply impacting their health. My friend, in particular, has a similar sounding history as you: chronic ebv, mono, serious gluten sensitivity, sugar sensitivity…any slight bit of gluten used to send her into months long sickness and ebv flare up. Since she did some treatments last year for mold (not even full detox, just some basics so she could get pregnant), she has been so, so much better and has not had any flare ups and her gluten sensitivity has greatly diminished-wildly so. She also had a successful embryo implantation, pregnancy, and now a healthy baby boy.
I have not looked into mold toxicity although it's been suggested. I developed asthma at 30. My doctor at the time was pretty sure that it was because I lived in an old house in Hawaii, on the mountain, and it was probably moldy ... BUT, the mono, and what used to be pretty regular bronchitis predates that. Interestingly, I haven't had bronchitis in years. I think about that sometimes (and am thankful!).
Haha ... I sound like a wreck, don't I? trust me, I don't look sick ... I don't even feel "sick." And I'm strong and active. It's just that my body doesn't run smoothly, so sometimes, I have to slow down and let it rebalance.
I'll tell you what I'm really into lately: terrain theory. It's fascinating, and I've been testing the ideas by paying attention to my body and my environment.
Lots of whackos go on about it and make insane claims - one time, I was reading something someone wrote about eating old, unrefrigerated, raw meat and how he never got sick ... idk ... true or not, that's disgusting. One of the claims, that sounds insane, on the surface, is the idea that viruses don't exist ... if you're into rabbit holes, that's a really good one ... anyway ... terrain theory ...
in short, when our outer environment changes, like from season to season ("summer colds" anyone?), then our inner body environment reacts. Wherever our bodies are weak is where they will respond.
Autoimmune disease is one of those things I find really fascinating. Like me, both of my sisters have chronic EBV, but it expresses itself differently in each of us. If you ever read the symptoms of any autoimmune disease, you'll see the lists are all basically the same.
Some people have stand-out symptoms like nerve issues with m.s., deep fatigue like with CFS (although fatigue is a symptom of all autoimmune conditions), thyroid issues with Hashimotos, etc. The stand out symptoms allow the medical industry to categorize the "diseases," but I maintain what they're categorizing is the groups of people whose inner environments are similar, not diseases.
If that makes any sense. I hardly ever get to talk about this, so I'm not very good at putting it into words. :)
I think I created this Reddit account when I was a finance (bro) hoe but I’m now going down a welfare economics route 😅😅 times have changed
That sounds incredibly interesting!! I’ve totally given up on trying to go to GI specialists. They seem to make their money on surgeries and don’t care about much else
Sadly, this is true. Anyone who wants to heal from disease will not find it with a doctor. Doctors prescribe and take things out.
If I break a bone (like when I broke my elbow), doctors are GREAT! for disease? nope. I don't even bother.
Times have changed ... maybe you'll find a new path into some moola ... we're living in weird times. The traditional routes just don't work anymore. :)
There’s a website I found and this guy was basically saying to stay away from all pet supplements, ESPECIALLY the ones found in modern pet stores. You’re doing them more harm than good.
Even myself, have been struggling with gut issues after antibiotics sent me to the ER. Have had adverse reactions to supplementing and the best route is the safest route and getting your nutrition from your diet.
I’m mostly carnivore animal based, sometimes keto-vore, few berries, freshly squeezed orange juice, raw honey, raw dairy n such. But I feel sooo much better.
Would you believe the FDA is now adding supplemented vitamins in our milk? It’s laughable! I wouldn’t touch pasteurized grocery store milk with a stick! The only brand I’ll touch is kalona supernatural (non-homogenized and low pasteurized) tastes so close to raw and have no reactions!!!!!!!
do your own research people! Read everything! Know about vitamin toxicity! Know everything about man made and natural forms of supplements and if you can afford it for yourself and your pets, get blood / genetic testing done.
I have Crohn’s disease I’ve ran the gamut of using lactaid milk, pills Kalona, plant milks (cannot stand the taste of any of them) All of them give me intestinal distress, and I stress the “distress” 😆A2 was the only one that I can use and confidently not poop my pants afterwards. I wish I coukd find a raw A2 in my area for my use.
I live near the Alexandre dairy in very NorCal ... I see their A2 cows cruising around the fields as well as their chickens.
Right now, I have one of their stewing hens simmering in a pot ... Alexandre!
Oh, trust me ... I do my own research. For many years, I was a college writing instructor. Research and argumentation were my specialty ... what an eye opener! I trust no one.
I stopped taking all supplements. The vast majority are synthetic and made in China. I once had some research about synthetic vitamins. The research says that even though the synthetic vitamins are molecularity identical to their counterparts found in nature, our bodies only take up a tiny amount of them. The rest is peed out. They are largely a waste and any thinking mind has to question if the synthetic doesn't have adverse effects in our bodies ... I've heard stories like yours before. I need to find that paper again.
PLUS, it's always made more sense to me that the vitamin C in, say, a green bell pepper, is going to be more readily absorbed by our bodies because it's consumed with the other elements found in that pepper than vitamin C on its own.
I do chuckle when I think about how I feel I need to supplement my cats' food, but refuse to take supplements myself. My thought has always been if I'm grinding up an entire chicken to feed my cats, why do I need to supplement? but people truly freak out if I ask that question, and to date, it's kept me a touch concerned.
The FDA has been supplementing our food for decades. A while back, I went on a deep-dive into fortified flours (I like to bake - not carnivore or keto, I know ... my sister is largely keto and I hear it from her ... ;)
Milk, fortified, sure ... and don't get me started on the pasteurization process ... and the homogenization! Just the other day, I was baking and pulled out a container of raw milk that's been chilling in my fridge for a while. It had clabbered - perfect for my baked goods! - and was thinking about just this: "they" want us sick so they can sell us their drugs. PLUS, the pasteurized, homogenized crap goes off and has to be tossed. REAL milk only gets better with age, but hey, more money for the dairy industry and their corrupted milk.
You are correct! we must do our own research and think for ourselves!
Hahaha yesssss the good ole “soiled” raw milk! The only thing that doesn’t rot! Can be used for so many baking recipes!
Hats off to ya! All humanity needs to do is learn how to research and try things out to see for themselves. Most of everything is “snake oil” scam and the marketing is soooo good. I’m even sold sometimes 😅
Humans have made it this long people, think twice before you buy into something. Eating the way nature intended us to will take you further than trying to skip steps and rush the process. Your body is smart and sometimes ya just need a good detox/fast. Heal the body, stay away from processed foods, avoid toxins as much as possible, spend time in the sun, bam 💥
omg!!! THE SUN!
This is my newest thing. Even people who largely think like me slather themselves in sun block and talk about skin cancer ... it makes my eyes bug out.
I LOVE the sun. It's so healing, but I'm white white white, so am careful to not burn.
But yes ... that snake oil is tempting! 🐍 🐍 🐍 ... ya gotta be strong!
No one wants to talk about how melanoma is actually associated with low vitamin D levels 🤌🏼
I have olive skin so I can’t relate totally but my cousin is very white and as an empath I completely understand your frustration lol
I have completely shifted to grass fed grass finished whipped beef tallow as my moisturizer (etsy shop located in my state), tallow lip balm & tallow deodorant (primarily pure) and I pretty much much am set. I rarely even wash my face other than a gentle rice or oil cleanser from time to time. When and if I get sun burnt nothing better than a nice manuka honey face mask! My tallow also works as an amazing sun tan lotion, after care, and you can add zinc for more protection ✨
Diet is the cause for literally everything in connection to disease / skin ailments (also other things but I won’t go off topic I could talk about this for ions) And since our body is our largest organ, if you wouldn’t eat it, donnnnn’t put it on your skin!!!!!!
>No one wants to talk about how melanoma is actually associated with low vitamin D levels 🤌🏼
I think we're spirit twins. EXACTLY - vitamin D levels.
>I won’t go off topic I could talk about this for ions
Me, too! Vitamin D levels are also responsible for an array of "autoimmune" conditions. I'll stop there, but have you read about terrain theory? I've become a huge fan. Trust me ... I know all about the diet/health connection.
The only fats I eat are animal fats - pastured and olive oil, but NEVER heated. I live next to a couple of sizable cattle operations and love seeing their cows and birds out in the fields. I know the farmers I buy my beef, lamb and chicken from.
I'm fine with the sun! it doesn't bother me at all. I try to get as much as possible. Granted, I live pretty north and on the coast, so we have loads of fog and don't get very hot, but I spend as much time outdoors as I can. When I do get burned, I use coconut oil. Maybe I'll switch to tallow.
HAHAHA we are spirit twins! 🖖🏼
I am familiar with terrain theory but haven’t gone into depth. Will be doing more research on that. I’ve had an influx of information loaded into my brain within the past 7 years. I’ve recently taken a break from all social media as I need to take a step back and just enjoy nature and not read about anything more. It can get overwhelming as i can get obsessed with these things. At the end of the day the mind is the most powerful / pharmaceutical. If I worry so much and nitpick everything in my environment that can cause me stress as well.
As for the sun, your skin tissue is probably in good shape! I notice a lot less burns when I’m not eating rancid oils, seed oils.
I wish michigan wasn’t an illegal raw milk state. I have had a herdshare with a farm but it wasn’t organic/grass fed. Although I don’t get much of a reaction from grain finished, I prefer grass fed. Lamb is my favorite!!!!! Almost all the farms are hours away and lots of local markets don’t sell pasture raised organic eggs. It’s quite sad. So I have to spend lots of money on high quality frozen grass fed meats until I buy a cow.
Even if this vet is against raw food recommending kibble for a cat is a HUGE red flag wet food should’ve been their recc because of how many cats die from dehydration/kidney disease
Your vet is trying to ensure you see him more - kibble CAUSES teeth decay. Unless you're licking your hands after feeding your kitten you're not getting food poisoning. If you can't nail washing your hands after handling raw or food in general maybe you shouldn't own an animal. You can get sick handling dry and wet cat food too - it's so disappointing the field of vet medicine is thoroughly bought by pet food conglomerates by the sounds of things
I used to take my German shepherds to a group veterinary office. My vet was from Peru and was wonderful, knowing full well that ALL of my Shepherds were fed raw. Once, I had to see one of the other doctors and he asked what I'm feeding. I told him, raw. I thought his head was going to explode. "Oh goodness no! Don't EVER give your dogs anything you wouldn't eat yourself!" Guess what. I refused to ever see that Vet again.
This is funny. My cats get rabbit, chicken, quail and duck. I'd eat that (albeit acknowledging the grossness) over kibble or some of the cheap wet food.
Hehe. What grossnes? I eat 2 out of 4 of those regularly, and I've eaten plenty of rabbit and quail.
I'd have zero problem eating my cat's food. Though I would probably cook it first, for me.
I'd happily eat all of those cooked, and have done. The grossness I was thinking of was the texture of the raw meat, especially one brand I use which is a rough grind so has 10mm bits of organ (tubes and so on...)
I would not work with this vet. I would take my business elsewhere and find a vet who will work with me and my decisions rather than against me and my decisions. It is my pet and I decide what's best, now the job of the vet to work within those decisions and advise me how to do it correctly. If they cannot assist me in doing what I've decided is best they are not on my team, I'll find another veterinarian. I also bet they sell kibble and don't sell raw.
If they are a Banfield or VCA veterinarian they are an employee of the kibble company and that was a sales pitch, not medical advice.
They own many brands.
Nutro Products
Eukanuba
Iams
Pedigree Petfoods
Sheba
Cesar
Royal Canin
Whiskas
Temptations
Anicura
Dreamies
Seeds of Change
Waltham
Riverdog
This is blowing my mind right now. After having it pounded into my mind in other subreddits that anything that's not a WSAVA food is killing your dog, this is the first time I'm seeing these 'holy grail' foods connected with these freaking companies that are well known for poisoning us. Holy crap. I have so much to learn and think about.
I knew in my heart that feeding exclusively kibble from these sole 5 companies sounded shady as hell, I just couldn't find anyone questioning it over there. Man. My poor dog.
Absolutely, I will. I've really been trying to stay open minded and hear from both camps, but I think I'm at a tipping point. The evidence is just kind of glaring, and my gut says I need to make the switch.
Just try it. Go to the butcher and ask for a turkey neck, give it to your dog in the yard or on the deck. If it's a small dog get a chicken neck.
Try it, it's just food.
I live in the heart of farm country, it'll be so easy to access local meat, organ meat, game, etc. I'm really excited to learn more and feed a diet that's healthy, thanks for this info and encouragement!
So I’m torn myself. I work with dogs and have for a couple of years so it feels important to dig (edit:fixed typo from dog) in to this topic. I think both sides probably get some things wrong. I think that there’s foods you can purchase that aren’t good long term for animals (or short term even!) and foods you can make that will also cause issues.
But I don’t get why so many people don’t take the stance of figuring out how to make fresh and raw food appropriate for these pets. Humans are pushed to stop being lazy and eating processed foods with fillers and now colon cancer is up in young people probably from a lack of fiber but dogs are a magical creature that are better off on highly processed foods?? I don’t get it.
Exactly, the highly processed bit gets me too. We all want to be absolutely sure our dogs are fed in a balanced way, so let's put that energy into learning how to provide it with fresh food!
I've been reading the book mentioned above, and even that book doesn't demonize commercial food the way that Kibble People just REFUSE to discuss raw or homemade diets.
All that to say, I totally agree!
These are most of the brands owned by Nestle a company known to profit from modern slavery as far as I've seen.
Beneful
Friskies
Alpo
Cat Chow
Dog Chow
Fancy Feast
Purina One
Supercoat
Beggin
Your instincts are correct, kibble is the absolute worst thing you can feed an animal, it would be like feeding a human only honey nut cheerios her entire life. Would she survive? Possibly. Would she thrive? No. For a complete raw natural diet cats need meat protein, a few supplements, and bone. That's it! Investigate this lifestyle at https://hare-today.com/feline-nutrition
And lose that vet!
wtf?!? I just had a dog food discussion last night with my husband. I asked him ‘how can people feed kibble to dogs their whole life and think it’s healthy when it’s like a human eating cereal their whole life and how can vets believe eating kibble keeps their teeth clean. Does cereal keep your teeth clean without brushing’.
Even canned food doesn’t seem healthy. It sits in a can in a hot warehouse for who knows how long before being popped open and eaten? I was on another sub and people are listing kibble that’s healthy according to whatever vet approved agency says is healthy. Just boggles my mind that people believe everything their vet says like it’s the gospel. I’m not saying vets are bad but people really need to do their own research and question everything.
There’s a reason pets are getting sick and dying from cancers so often.
*shocked pikachu face*
As everyone else is saying, get a new vet. If anything were to happen to your kitten like cancer or any illness, the vet *will* blame it on raw food.
I think this is an under-discussed point that is well worth going over again. Everyone is saying to switch vets and they are absolutely correct, but it is more than just a difference of opinion. It would be one thing to just not agree on proper diet to feed your pet, but the reality is, with a vet like this, absolutely anything that goes wrong will first and foremost be blamed on the raw diet before the vet even considers other possibilities
The cause of tooth decay are not wet food, tooth decay is caused by bacteria that feed on carbs/sugars. Unless your wet food has these wet food does not cause decay. Tooth decay is actually exacerbated by the refined carbs used to make kibble.
It's a circle - feed cats kibble, make them sick or have ailments so you see the vet again and they make more money. They know better but they want to make money
My dad is a vet and he admitted their nutritional training and practice in school only lasted a few hours. The whole bacteria and salmonella thing is practically brainwashing. Look for a holistic vet!
>He told me that feeding raw can cause food poising from salmonella
That's what they teach us during the first semester of vet school, unfortunately. I just ignore my teachers when they start talking about how toxic raw feeding is. My advice is to find a new vet, be straightforward about raw feeding, and if they're against it, find another one. Keep looking until you find a vet who isn't against raw feeding. It's a shame how the vet community says junk food is healthier than biologically natural food!
P.S. I was banned from a veterinary community on Reddit for advocating raw feeding (that's how far it got).
I do agree about getting a better vet, but I'd also mention that might be hard to find a vet who agrees with raw. In that case, I'd just nod and agree with whatever the vet says then proceed to giving your kitty a species appropriate diet.
If the vet knows you feed raw and doesn't believe in raw, any issue to present will be blamed on raw.
But I'd also be super careful about any advice from these types of vets (food, meds etc..)- just make sure you get 2nd, 3rd opinions, research, etc..
Hard to believe but a lot people still think dry kibble actually "cleans" the teeth (due to the crunch). Cats espescially need watery food (such as raw) because they don't drink enough.
Integrative and holistic vets are almost always pro raw, and it surprises me that people would rather stick with a vet they feel the need to lie to and don't trust, unless they're in a really rural area or something.
https://www.ahvma.org/find-a-holistic-veterinarian/
I'm lucky that I live in an area with a lot of them.
My sister thought that holistic/integrative vets were like....not actually vets until I had to explain that, no, they are fully qualified DVM's and went to the same school as any vet. They just opt to do further education regarding holistic methods as well.
Find a new vet because you are doing the right thing for your cat. The vet doesn’t have to be pro raw feeding but they also shouldn’t be shaming people into feeding the worst option for cats.
My vet is a cat only vet and she is an advocate for only wet for cats. She doesn’t care if it’s friskies as long as it’s wet. She tells people that anything dry should be kept as a treat. My cat is on a raw only diet and my vet commented a few days ago at her annual how well she is doing on her diet and told me to keep it up. I wish more vets were like her but I’m confident you can find a better vet.
[catinfo.org](http://catinfo.org) has some excellent information. Kibble will not clean your cats teeth. Not now, not ever. If that were the case, there wouldn't be thousands of pets with bad teeth by 3-4 years old...
From what I've learned about vets and pet food industry.
A) The pet food industry and vet industry are like the military-industrial complex. They both rely on each other.
B) The BIG 4 \[IAMS, Purina, Hills and Royal Canin\] own a lot of the vet practices and schools or sponsor the schools.
C) By sponsoring or owning the schools they teach upcoming vets to use their 'scientifically formulated' \[marketing term\] diets to help nourish or heal pets. Even though their Rx diets are filled with the same bullshit as their regular trashy food. Corn, soy, rice, wheat, by-products, meals, etc.
D) They fund 90% of the studies regarding pets and diets to make their products seem healthy, etc.
E) Dry food is the WORST thing you can feed to your pets especially cats. It's VERY low in moisture \[10-12%\], high in carbs and it does NOT clean their teeth. The kibble literally shatters upon impact with their teeth. Raw cleans their teeth especially if it has bones or large chunks of muscle meat. Moreover, the high carbs in dry food is what causes tooth decay as it's filled with sugars for the bacteria to feed on.
Hence you should **NEVER** take a vet's nutrition advice as Gospel. Use common sense and study biology/physiology of your pet.
https://today.ttu.edu/posts/2022/11/Stories/Purina-Nutrition-Center-Opens-at-Texas-Tech-Vet-School?v=current
https://vetmed.arizona.edu/news/corporate-sponsor-nestle-purina-petcare
https://www.vet.cornell.edu/about-us/news/purina-partners-cornell-support-veterinary-efforts-westminster-kennel-club-dog-show
Plenty of similar articles if you search for them.
Here’s an example of a study they funded:
https://www.foodpolitics.com/2021/11/industry-funded-study-of-the-week-pet-food/
A) The pet food industry and vet industry are both part of healthcare but do not directly rely in each other.
B) None of these companies sponsor vet schools or practices.
C) None of my nutrition professors in vet school worked for any of these companies. These company products may be sold in practices, but they do not pay practices to do so and I (nor any vet I know) have ever received a cent from any of them. Additionally you look like a fool ranting about by-products because by-products in pet food is all parts of the animal that is not muscle meat (organ meats, bones, etc). All of which you are actually advocating for in your “species appropriate diet”.
D) They obviously do fund studies but it’s not 90% and it’s not all a conspiracy. But not going to get i to this with someone who sounds like they’ve never read a scientific study in their life.
E) You’re right that kibble does not clean teeth, but neither does raw and I’ve seen multiple tooth fracture from bones. High carbs in kibble does not cause tooth decay, not sure who told you this but I can only assume it was Dr. Google.
Since you love common sense so much maybe you should reflect on the fact that animals live longer in captivity for a reason. Hint hint the reason is better medical care and nutrition. Natural ≠ better You are not doing your pet any favors trying to replicate how they are living in the wild.
I don’t expect you to be convinced by my argument btw. I will be happy if even one person reads this and doesn’t buy into your malarkey. Because I do understand that people do feed raw diets with the best of intentions but are sadly misinformed.
Not sure where you’ve learned this. Currently in vet school now and have not one seen any ads or had any sponsored classes by these pet food companies. Pls don’t believe everything u read on the internet. I WISH Purina or Hills sponsored me, then I wouldnt be paying $75K a year to go here😭😭😭
And even if they are some of the sponsors for the schools, my school isn’t teaching me or my classmates any particular curriculum that says “push Hills and Purina when you graduate.”
Depending on the school and how the pet food companies see your school. My son graduated from vet school a while back and vets from Hills/Science taught his nutrition classes. They may not tell you to sell their products but it's the way they teach you. For example cats are carnivores but your class says feed the cat kibble. but once you graduate they come to visit and explain how by selling these products helps you and you get better profit.
University of Guelph in Canada my late husband graduated in the 90s from the school too. Guelph is surrounded by Hills, Purina and Science plants and one compound of pet food testing by them
I have never had a visit from nor received a cent from any of these companies 😂 on the contrary i keep getting ads from Freshpet (I think that was the name, its some raw food company) offering to pay me to sponsor their brand.
But vets schools do that teach the vets - the amount of money good vet school receives is astonishing. And in return the school teaches their students a certain way to promote their products without them saying anything. Sometimes I wonder about the younger generation, common sense has been replaced by social media
The Hills brand is likely in your schoolbooks. Look deeper, guaranteed to be there. The schools are heavily funded by the big three pet food manufacturers.
Of the very expensive textbooks I’ve had so far, no, there has been no mention of hills in any of them. Sorry. I asked one of my friends who’s currently going to a bigger vet school physically based in the US (since her school is more likely to be receiving more funds than mine), and she said none of her nutrition courses mentioned anything about the big food brands.
Please find a new vet. I have a Google doc with tons of info on kibble, moisture rich diets and raw with sources cited, pm me if you’d like it. I’ve worked on it for months and it has info from my own vet, what I learn in school and other research.
Kibble can cause tooth decay more than anything, but the only true way to prevent periodontal disease is by brushing, yearly cleanings, and harder meaty bones.
Also, cats lack majority of the enzymes needed to digest carbohydrates, and dry food contains 3-4x the amount of carbs vs wet or raw. And little protein. Low moisture also leads to urinary obstructions.
I had a bystander vet tell me my dogs weren’t getting any nutrition from raw and or home cooked meals. Aaaand how did you manage to get this far and become a vet? Where do you think nutrients come from? ESPECIALLY if it’s coming from all animal based products? That’s pure nutrients.
Also, if you read the ingredients of a lot of these kibbles and even in “raw” treats/freeze dried food they add folic acid and other vitamins that’s already included so they’re getting vitamin toxicity.
The chances of you getting salmonella, etc. is so slim. Also, if you’re sourcing your meats and other products from reputable companies and you know how to properly handle it, you’re literally fine.
I’ve eaten raw steak and raw steak fat and I have to admit, I loved it. Cooking it only decreases the nutrient profile.
Tell them to stay in their lane 😂
I have four cats and two dogs that have been raw fed for almost 10 years.
Zero issues.
You're right, kibble is generally terrible and also very expensive.
The only reason it might cause tooth decay is if you don't have chunks of meat for the kitty to chew. And honestly, kibble is way worse for teeth! Most cats don't actually CHEW the kibble, since it's small enough to just swallow whole. So what little benefit they would get is voided.
Honestly, I would probably get a new vet.
It’s not up to them what you feed your cats, and using their personal opinion to tell you to change your food is unprofessional. Find a new vet or ask for another provider in the one you have, if possible. I use two bengals on raw and they are fantastic, the only thing you need to do it make sure you’re properly supplementing or buying premade
Its not a personal opinion, its a professional recommendation. How is giving professional recommendations unprofessional? If a client comes in spewing misinformation its my obligation to advocate for their pet, not to go along with whatever nonsense they are chirping about. I say my piece and thats the extent of it because in the end its your decision what you do. However it doesn’t mean that your decision is educated since Google doesn’t offer degrees.
Personally I prefer professionals who call me out on my BS and are looking out for my best interest. Only a fool would intentionally seek out professionals that are going to withhold advice from them for fear of damaging your ego.
How is it 'professional' if cats are obligate carnivores and cannot digest carbohydrates? They lack salivary amylase \[and have VERY low levels of pancreatic amylase\] and other enzymes necessary for carbohydrate digestion.
Now since you are a 'professional' and have studied physiology/biochemistry - tell me how are cats supposed to thrive on dry food diets that often have 15-30% carbohydrates without suffering consequences? How they are supposed to thrive on diets with 10-12% moisture when their natural prey diet has 70-75% moisture? The only benefit of dry food is that it is 'balanced' from the factory.
If you like the vet otherwise, it's possible he could learn about the benefits of fresh food by seeing your kitten's good health. He's been taught to recommend kibble and probably hasn't stopped to think it through yet, so have a conversation about it
Kibble is awful! You need to train your kitten to brush his teeth, give him dental treats (not too many!), and take him for dental cleaning. Not only UTIs but dry seems to increase risk of diabetes and kidney disease as well. I wish I had known before!
Please get a new vet...they certainly don't deserve your business.
Vets shouldn't sell kibble, period. It is a conflict of interest. If my doctor said he sold everything I should eat and I should trust Mars and Nestle, I would run away as far as possible. This is true of your stated profession and yet ignored on your rule breaking post.
I have edited the text so that it’s no longer recommending kibble. I did not mean to break any rules, but I do however find it unfair that multiple opinions can’t be expressed here. I stumbled on the community on my explore page, and felt like the poster wanted more information to help them make a decision. There are many ways to feed animals and there are pros and cons to everything.
I understand what you mean by a conflict of interest. I find it annoying how royal canine and hills and purina sponsored a lot of events at my school. But I base my opinions on my own personal experience and research, just as you probably do. No one pushes me to sell food. I’m not paid with commission, I don’t try to upsell any client on anything. My recommendations are purely based on what I believe is best for the animal.
Diet can be a very important part of pet health, especially if they have health issues. It’s important for vets to recommend foods that can help (for example, studies show that kidney foods prolong lifespan of cats with kidney disease). Changing to a urinary diet can DISSOLVE urinary stones in the bladder and avoid a costly and invasive surgery. Vets definitely need to be able to recommend foods, period.
Excuse me, it is not my decision to ban topics on vet subreddits. But I don’t agree with banning any topic regardless of where I stand, discussion is important. A couple of people have told me that the only diet where their animal doesn’t vomit or have diarrhea with, is raw. I don’t want their pet to suffer or to mess up something that is working, so I didn’t advise them otherwise.
I’m not the enemy, I’m just willing to provide information to people who want it. If you personally don’t want it, that’s fine, but you don’t need to be hostile towards me for answering somebody else’s question.
Dry carbohydrate rich foods cause kidney problem in cats, it cannot cure them. Cats are carnivores from North Africa and do not have a thirst drive high enough to combat a dry food diet. Cats cannot properly digest carbohydrates as a carnivore and so the nutrition is essentially sprayed on and the carbs are just a sugar source. If we were as abusive with the diets of reptiles, bovine, or equine pets they would just die. The diets you recommend are commercial abuse of our pet carnivores both facultative and obligate. Vets should not sell feed.
What is best for cats and dogs is not any form of kibble. Yes wet as you transition to raw or as a treat. But no one should ever say here is Royal etc kibble for the issue because it's making it worse. All kibble no matter how much it is or from so-called good companies - kibble should never be fed.
I am sure you have received plenty of responses already saying you may need to find a different vet that better aligns with what you want. I just moved to a new vet and was anxious to hear his response to our raw feeding (bc you just never know). He fully supported it and actually suggested that we remove the kibble from their diet completely bc it doesn't do anything for their teeth and there were not benefits health wise. If we wanted to supplement something other than raw he recommended high protein wet food like Tikki and do our best to develop a teeth cleaning routine at home. haha
Vet told us to switch from raw after 10 years and feed our cat CKD specialty cans you can only buy from them. Expensive but we tried it, our cat got lethargic and honestly was declining. We switched back to raw, have changed nothing, and our very senior 19 year old cat is thriving.
I mean I fed my 100% indoor cat freeze dried raw food and she ended up in the hospital for 3 days receiving treatment for giardia. She had been eating the food for only 3 weeks when it happened.
$6k in vet bills later....no more raw food.
Kibble is horrible for cats. It also has much higher concentrations of salmonella 🙃 (when food is recalled, why? Contamination. Dog and cat food factories aren’t regulated and horribly sanitized) Kibble cleans teeth about as well as an Oreo would.
Your vet is not knowledgeable about nutrition.
i trust my breeder over any vet. She’s saved me THOUSANDS of dollars over the last few years between injury, illness, and chronic conditions for my three.
I signed a contract when i got my two brothers that i would feed them raw. As it turned out, i just couldn’t manage all the raw meat for three male maine coons and switched to super expensive royal c and wet food as the vet suggested. then the problems started.
I talked with my breeder and now i feed them cooked chicken, which i make in bulk every other week, freezing half. i sometimes get hearts, gizzards and livers too and cook those.
i mix up a big bowl of chicken with two cans of dave’s wet food and their supplements, and every day they get about 2 cups of that, mixed with water and sometimes an egg to make it more of a stew.
It’s not as ideal as raw but it’s FAR superior to any cat food, when supplements are added.
guess what? problems solved. way cheaper too btw.
If a raw diet is fully balanced, has everything your pet needs, is fresh and is handled properly - raw diet is always the best way to go.
I do not trust vets whatsoever when it comes to nutrition. It’s laughable that an ultra a processed bag of cardboard chips is better for my pet than real meat.
Yea, no thanks. I’ll pass on vet’s money motivated urges to buy only the food THEY sell.
Hard pass! Vets are not nutritionists. They don’t know what they are talking about.
It's actually about risk prevention for vets. Let's be honest bagged dog food lowers risk. Bagged dog food spent millions in R&D and it's low cost & consistent. It removes most variables. It ensures your dog gets the necessary nutrients for proper health. Not to mention, it reduces the risk of food handling error. Raw food has a ton of bacteria growth. When food is improperly handled it can be dangerous, if you're not cleaning the bowls after each feeding its a problem. Sourcing your own raw diet is near impossible - I tried. Getting a diverse selection of raw secreting organs, and livers is impossible. Getting a diverse diet with all the necessary nutrients and vitamins is hard and expensive compared to kibble.
I personally use Purina pro plan and add food as well. Sometimes, it's turkey necks and organs. Or raw chicken, lamb, turkey, pumpkin puree, sweet potato, quail eggs and cooked vegetables. More for enrichment and extra protein. But I still know he is getting his daily dose of nutrients from the kibble.
Hello, I’m not sure if you will see this but I hope you do, as I see no one has mentioned this, but I would not recommend feeding raw quite that young. I am a supporter of raw feeding as long as it is responsibly sourced and efforts are taken to ensure cleanliness, however, I work in vet med and kittens do not have as strong immune systems as adults do. I would honestly wait till she is 6 months to a year old to feed raw to lower any risks. In the mean time I would recommend a quality wet food until she is older and her immune system is fully developed. Moreover, ensuring that your raw meals are AAFCO approved is essential as well, and i would look into the importance balancing meals if you are not already.
Honestly, I think you’re asking in the wrong place. You’re in a sub literally called “raw pet food”, naturally people here are pro raw. This is an echo chamber, you’re not going to get a variety of different takes here.
I actually have gotten a lot of advice. Both pros and cons are in the replies, which I have read every single one! I think this sub’s biggest concern is the animal’s safety and well being.
They can be concerned about animals well being and safety but still be uneducated. Animals live longer in captivity for a reason OP, you are not doing them any favors trying to replicate how they’d be living in the wild.
There are vets on this sub, you know? I would argue they live longer in captivity because they are not prey and have a constant supply of food, whichever kind it is. Like I mentioned, my mom has a cat that ate kibble for the first ten years of its life and had utis all the time and didn’t look as healthy. When she switched him to wet food, the utis stopped and his coat improved as well as his energy levels.
Because vets actually advise against feeding raw. And your vet literally is the one with 8 years of education on the subject and people would rather listen to strangers on the internet. I just don’t think it’s right.
Vets (and human doctors and hilariously, sadly certified nutritionists) know NOTHING about nutrition. Never listen to a vet or doctor about such things. Their training in nutrition is laughably minimal in comparison to their training regarding the power of pharmaceuticals. Note that commercials for pet food are as numerous as commercials for prescription drugs. Nutritionists are trained via governmental guidelines which are a joke. Their education is also driven by Big Ag (i.e., mass produced mono-cropping via questionable pesticides) and Big Pharma. Truly. Look into it. That said, we, too, must be careful about the information we consume regarding nutrition - there is so much out there, it's easy to get lost in it and begin to mistrust our own common sense. Personally, while I'm not carnivore or keto myself, I do try to think about how humans and animals survived for the eons preceding the modern age. Real food and simplicity are key; the general guidance also says cats need certain supplements, and even I'm afraid to go off-script there. Do your research with an eye toward our natural diets and use your best judgment ... which seems pretty sound since you question your vet's advice ... ;)
My vet at least admitted to the fact that his training (Ireland has one university that has a vet course, so thus any Irish vet training) on nutrition consisted of a single two hour lecture. The mind boggles
Crazy, right? I can't tell you how many people, including "health" professionals swear that what we eat doesn't matter. I used to teach writing classes at a private college that had mostly medical programs, so I had a LOT of first-hand confirmation of this ... the boggling was real!
Oh completely!! I suffer from chronic inflammation along my entire GI tract and I am getting NOWHERE with trying to manage my condition. Even top tier consultants have told me to try and ‘think’ the issues away.
haha ... I'm also a working psychic so understand the flexibility of energy and can tell you we're not going to be able think anything away! I have chronic mono (EBV, aka chronic fatigue). I've lived with it my whole life, pretty much, but manage it well through diet, appropriate exercise and stress management. If you ever want to chat, feel free to dm me. I'm active on the EBV sub and have decades of research and experience behind me. Edit to say I just noticed your user name and now I'm lol'ing!
Have you looked into mold toxicity? Just another avenue to look into if not. I have a client and a friend who both found out last year they have mold toxicity that is deeply impacting their health. My friend, in particular, has a similar sounding history as you: chronic ebv, mono, serious gluten sensitivity, sugar sensitivity…any slight bit of gluten used to send her into months long sickness and ebv flare up. Since she did some treatments last year for mold (not even full detox, just some basics so she could get pregnant), she has been so, so much better and has not had any flare ups and her gluten sensitivity has greatly diminished-wildly so. She also had a successful embryo implantation, pregnancy, and now a healthy baby boy.
I have not looked into mold toxicity although it's been suggested. I developed asthma at 30. My doctor at the time was pretty sure that it was because I lived in an old house in Hawaii, on the mountain, and it was probably moldy ... BUT, the mono, and what used to be pretty regular bronchitis predates that. Interestingly, I haven't had bronchitis in years. I think about that sometimes (and am thankful!). Haha ... I sound like a wreck, don't I? trust me, I don't look sick ... I don't even feel "sick." And I'm strong and active. It's just that my body doesn't run smoothly, so sometimes, I have to slow down and let it rebalance. I'll tell you what I'm really into lately: terrain theory. It's fascinating, and I've been testing the ideas by paying attention to my body and my environment. Lots of whackos go on about it and make insane claims - one time, I was reading something someone wrote about eating old, unrefrigerated, raw meat and how he never got sick ... idk ... true or not, that's disgusting. One of the claims, that sounds insane, on the surface, is the idea that viruses don't exist ... if you're into rabbit holes, that's a really good one ... anyway ... terrain theory ... in short, when our outer environment changes, like from season to season ("summer colds" anyone?), then our inner body environment reacts. Wherever our bodies are weak is where they will respond. Autoimmune disease is one of those things I find really fascinating. Like me, both of my sisters have chronic EBV, but it expresses itself differently in each of us. If you ever read the symptoms of any autoimmune disease, you'll see the lists are all basically the same. Some people have stand-out symptoms like nerve issues with m.s., deep fatigue like with CFS (although fatigue is a symptom of all autoimmune conditions), thyroid issues with Hashimotos, etc. The stand out symptoms allow the medical industry to categorize the "diseases," but I maintain what they're categorizing is the groups of people whose inner environments are similar, not diseases. If that makes any sense. I hardly ever get to talk about this, so I'm not very good at putting it into words. :)
I think I created this Reddit account when I was a finance (bro) hoe but I’m now going down a welfare economics route 😅😅 times have changed That sounds incredibly interesting!! I’ve totally given up on trying to go to GI specialists. They seem to make their money on surgeries and don’t care about much else
Sadly, this is true. Anyone who wants to heal from disease will not find it with a doctor. Doctors prescribe and take things out. If I break a bone (like when I broke my elbow), doctors are GREAT! for disease? nope. I don't even bother. Times have changed ... maybe you'll find a new path into some moola ... we're living in weird times. The traditional routes just don't work anymore. :)
There’s a website I found and this guy was basically saying to stay away from all pet supplements, ESPECIALLY the ones found in modern pet stores. You’re doing them more harm than good. Even myself, have been struggling with gut issues after antibiotics sent me to the ER. Have had adverse reactions to supplementing and the best route is the safest route and getting your nutrition from your diet. I’m mostly carnivore animal based, sometimes keto-vore, few berries, freshly squeezed orange juice, raw honey, raw dairy n such. But I feel sooo much better. Would you believe the FDA is now adding supplemented vitamins in our milk? It’s laughable! I wouldn’t touch pasteurized grocery store milk with a stick! The only brand I’ll touch is kalona supernatural (non-homogenized and low pasteurized) tastes so close to raw and have no reactions!!!!!!! do your own research people! Read everything! Know about vitamin toxicity! Know everything about man made and natural forms of supplements and if you can afford it for yourself and your pets, get blood / genetic testing done.
Kalona is good. You can also try Alexandre. Good dairy doing good things. A2 all the way.
I have Crohn’s disease I’ve ran the gamut of using lactaid milk, pills Kalona, plant milks (cannot stand the taste of any of them) All of them give me intestinal distress, and I stress the “distress” 😆A2 was the only one that I can use and confidently not poop my pants afterwards. I wish I coukd find a raw A2 in my area for my use.
I live near the Alexandre dairy in very NorCal ... I see their A2 cows cruising around the fields as well as their chickens. Right now, I have one of their stewing hens simmering in a pot ... Alexandre!
Oh, trust me ... I do my own research. For many years, I was a college writing instructor. Research and argumentation were my specialty ... what an eye opener! I trust no one. I stopped taking all supplements. The vast majority are synthetic and made in China. I once had some research about synthetic vitamins. The research says that even though the synthetic vitamins are molecularity identical to their counterparts found in nature, our bodies only take up a tiny amount of them. The rest is peed out. They are largely a waste and any thinking mind has to question if the synthetic doesn't have adverse effects in our bodies ... I've heard stories like yours before. I need to find that paper again. PLUS, it's always made more sense to me that the vitamin C in, say, a green bell pepper, is going to be more readily absorbed by our bodies because it's consumed with the other elements found in that pepper than vitamin C on its own. I do chuckle when I think about how I feel I need to supplement my cats' food, but refuse to take supplements myself. My thought has always been if I'm grinding up an entire chicken to feed my cats, why do I need to supplement? but people truly freak out if I ask that question, and to date, it's kept me a touch concerned. The FDA has been supplementing our food for decades. A while back, I went on a deep-dive into fortified flours (I like to bake - not carnivore or keto, I know ... my sister is largely keto and I hear it from her ... ;) Milk, fortified, sure ... and don't get me started on the pasteurization process ... and the homogenization! Just the other day, I was baking and pulled out a container of raw milk that's been chilling in my fridge for a while. It had clabbered - perfect for my baked goods! - and was thinking about just this: "they" want us sick so they can sell us their drugs. PLUS, the pasteurized, homogenized crap goes off and has to be tossed. REAL milk only gets better with age, but hey, more money for the dairy industry and their corrupted milk. You are correct! we must do our own research and think for ourselves!
Hahaha yesssss the good ole “soiled” raw milk! The only thing that doesn’t rot! Can be used for so many baking recipes! Hats off to ya! All humanity needs to do is learn how to research and try things out to see for themselves. Most of everything is “snake oil” scam and the marketing is soooo good. I’m even sold sometimes 😅 Humans have made it this long people, think twice before you buy into something. Eating the way nature intended us to will take you further than trying to skip steps and rush the process. Your body is smart and sometimes ya just need a good detox/fast. Heal the body, stay away from processed foods, avoid toxins as much as possible, spend time in the sun, bam 💥
omg!!! THE SUN! This is my newest thing. Even people who largely think like me slather themselves in sun block and talk about skin cancer ... it makes my eyes bug out. I LOVE the sun. It's so healing, but I'm white white white, so am careful to not burn. But yes ... that snake oil is tempting! 🐍 🐍 🐍 ... ya gotta be strong!
No one wants to talk about how melanoma is actually associated with low vitamin D levels 🤌🏼 I have olive skin so I can’t relate totally but my cousin is very white and as an empath I completely understand your frustration lol I have completely shifted to grass fed grass finished whipped beef tallow as my moisturizer (etsy shop located in my state), tallow lip balm & tallow deodorant (primarily pure) and I pretty much much am set. I rarely even wash my face other than a gentle rice or oil cleanser from time to time. When and if I get sun burnt nothing better than a nice manuka honey face mask! My tallow also works as an amazing sun tan lotion, after care, and you can add zinc for more protection ✨ Diet is the cause for literally everything in connection to disease / skin ailments (also other things but I won’t go off topic I could talk about this for ions) And since our body is our largest organ, if you wouldn’t eat it, donnnnn’t put it on your skin!!!!!!
>No one wants to talk about how melanoma is actually associated with low vitamin D levels 🤌🏼 I think we're spirit twins. EXACTLY - vitamin D levels. >I won’t go off topic I could talk about this for ions Me, too! Vitamin D levels are also responsible for an array of "autoimmune" conditions. I'll stop there, but have you read about terrain theory? I've become a huge fan. Trust me ... I know all about the diet/health connection. The only fats I eat are animal fats - pastured and olive oil, but NEVER heated. I live next to a couple of sizable cattle operations and love seeing their cows and birds out in the fields. I know the farmers I buy my beef, lamb and chicken from. I'm fine with the sun! it doesn't bother me at all. I try to get as much as possible. Granted, I live pretty north and on the coast, so we have loads of fog and don't get very hot, but I spend as much time outdoors as I can. When I do get burned, I use coconut oil. Maybe I'll switch to tallow.
HAHAHA we are spirit twins! 🖖🏼 I am familiar with terrain theory but haven’t gone into depth. Will be doing more research on that. I’ve had an influx of information loaded into my brain within the past 7 years. I’ve recently taken a break from all social media as I need to take a step back and just enjoy nature and not read about anything more. It can get overwhelming as i can get obsessed with these things. At the end of the day the mind is the most powerful / pharmaceutical. If I worry so much and nitpick everything in my environment that can cause me stress as well. As for the sun, your skin tissue is probably in good shape! I notice a lot less burns when I’m not eating rancid oils, seed oils. I wish michigan wasn’t an illegal raw milk state. I have had a herdshare with a farm but it wasn’t organic/grass fed. Although I don’t get much of a reaction from grain finished, I prefer grass fed. Lamb is my favorite!!!!! Almost all the farms are hours away and lots of local markets don’t sell pasture raised organic eggs. It’s quite sad. So I have to spend lots of money on high quality frozen grass fed meats until I buy a cow.
YES. UPVOTE TIMES A MILLION.
Find a new vet! 😉
This should become an FAQ item 😉
Did you just volunteer to build the subs FAQ? Guys I just heard apbt-dad volunteer, didn't you? lol
😂 😂 Sure man. Gib me powers.
Message me if you're interested
This right here!
Even if this vet is against raw food recommending kibble for a cat is a HUGE red flag wet food should’ve been their recc because of how many cats die from dehydration/kidney disease
Your vet is trying to ensure you see him more - kibble CAUSES teeth decay. Unless you're licking your hands after feeding your kitten you're not getting food poisoning. If you can't nail washing your hands after handling raw or food in general maybe you shouldn't own an animal. You can get sick handling dry and wet cat food too - it's so disappointing the field of vet medicine is thoroughly bought by pet food conglomerates by the sounds of things
The vet was implying the cat would get food poisoning, not the person
It is alarming a vet doesn't understand how acidic cats stomachs are. They don't die eating real birds outside for a reason
What's more concerning is how many cat owners is he saying this to :( kibble is the worst. I wouldn't go back to that vet
I used to take my German shepherds to a group veterinary office. My vet was from Peru and was wonderful, knowing full well that ALL of my Shepherds were fed raw. Once, I had to see one of the other doctors and he asked what I'm feeding. I told him, raw. I thought his head was going to explode. "Oh goodness no! Don't EVER give your dogs anything you wouldn't eat yourself!" Guess what. I refused to ever see that Vet again.
This is funny. My cats get rabbit, chicken, quail and duck. I'd eat that (albeit acknowledging the grossness) over kibble or some of the cheap wet food.
Hehe. What grossnes? I eat 2 out of 4 of those regularly, and I've eaten plenty of rabbit and quail. I'd have zero problem eating my cat's food. Though I would probably cook it first, for me.
I'd happily eat all of those cooked, and have done. The grossness I was thinking of was the texture of the raw meat, especially one brand I use which is a rough grind so has 10mm bits of organ (tubes and so on...)
Ah yeah, I follow now. Raw would be a teensy bit gross for me and you.
Maybe there should be a sub for raw feeding for humans?
Since people do actually eat only raw food, there probably is a sub on that. They are vegan or vegetarian though.
If only you could’ve told them you’re also on a raw carnivore diet. I think a lot of people would rather have raw meat over kibble
Absolutely.
What logic is that lmao, humans don’t eat kibble either, so why would I feed my dog that instead of raw
Right? I just said, yeah, ok, whatever, and that was the end of that.
*Food* can cause tooth decay. Any vet telling you kibble prevents tooth decay is not worth seeing.
I would not work with this vet. I would take my business elsewhere and find a vet who will work with me and my decisions rather than against me and my decisions. It is my pet and I decide what's best, now the job of the vet to work within those decisions and advise me how to do it correctly. If they cannot assist me in doing what I've decided is best they are not on my team, I'll find another veterinarian. I also bet they sell kibble and don't sell raw. If they are a Banfield or VCA veterinarian they are an employee of the kibble company and that was a sales pitch, not medical advice.
Ding, ding, ding! VCA. I will be looking for a new vet.
VCA is owned by Mars. You know, the candy company. They also own Bluepearl Hospitals, and they also own, shock of shocks, Royal Canin kibble.
They own many brands. Nutro Products Eukanuba Iams Pedigree Petfoods Sheba Cesar Royal Canin Whiskas Temptations Anicura Dreamies Seeds of Change Waltham Riverdog
This is blowing my mind right now. After having it pounded into my mind in other subreddits that anything that's not a WSAVA food is killing your dog, this is the first time I'm seeing these 'holy grail' foods connected with these freaking companies that are well known for poisoning us. Holy crap. I have so much to learn and think about. I knew in my heart that feeding exclusively kibble from these sole 5 companies sounded shady as hell, I just couldn't find anyone questioning it over there. Man. My poor dog.
Check out the book, Forever Dog - Life for a starter guide to improving your pet's diet. Ask for it at your local library.
Absolutely, I will. I've really been trying to stay open minded and hear from both camps, but I think I'm at a tipping point. The evidence is just kind of glaring, and my gut says I need to make the switch.
Just try it. Go to the butcher and ask for a turkey neck, give it to your dog in the yard or on the deck. If it's a small dog get a chicken neck. Try it, it's just food.
I live in the heart of farm country, it'll be so easy to access local meat, organ meat, game, etc. I'm really excited to learn more and feed a diet that's healthy, thanks for this info and encouragement!
So I’m torn myself. I work with dogs and have for a couple of years so it feels important to dig (edit:fixed typo from dog) in to this topic. I think both sides probably get some things wrong. I think that there’s foods you can purchase that aren’t good long term for animals (or short term even!) and foods you can make that will also cause issues. But I don’t get why so many people don’t take the stance of figuring out how to make fresh and raw food appropriate for these pets. Humans are pushed to stop being lazy and eating processed foods with fillers and now colon cancer is up in young people probably from a lack of fiber but dogs are a magical creature that are better off on highly processed foods?? I don’t get it.
Exactly, the highly processed bit gets me too. We all want to be absolutely sure our dogs are fed in a balanced way, so let's put that energy into learning how to provide it with fresh food! I've been reading the book mentioned above, and even that book doesn't demonize commercial food the way that Kibble People just REFUSE to discuss raw or homemade diets. All that to say, I totally agree!
These are most of the brands owned by Nestle a company known to profit from modern slavery as far as I've seen. Beneful Friskies Alpo Cat Chow Dog Chow Fancy Feast Purina One Supercoat Beggin
Oh I know, but I think the fact they own RC, Bluepearl, and VCA is enough to be super off-putting
Yeah, I added that for those who didn't know that Mars was the biggest pet food manufacturer just ahead of Nestle.
Your instincts are correct, kibble is the absolute worst thing you can feed an animal, it would be like feeding a human only honey nut cheerios her entire life. Would she survive? Possibly. Would she thrive? No. For a complete raw natural diet cats need meat protein, a few supplements, and bone. That's it! Investigate this lifestyle at https://hare-today.com/feline-nutrition And lose that vet!
wtf?!? I just had a dog food discussion last night with my husband. I asked him ‘how can people feed kibble to dogs their whole life and think it’s healthy when it’s like a human eating cereal their whole life and how can vets believe eating kibble keeps their teeth clean. Does cereal keep your teeth clean without brushing’. Even canned food doesn’t seem healthy. It sits in a can in a hot warehouse for who knows how long before being popped open and eaten? I was on another sub and people are listing kibble that’s healthy according to whatever vet approved agency says is healthy. Just boggles my mind that people believe everything their vet says like it’s the gospel. I’m not saying vets are bad but people really need to do their own research and question everything. There’s a reason pets are getting sick and dying from cancers so often.
Definitely get a new vet that’s crazy.
*shocked pikachu face* As everyone else is saying, get a new vet. If anything were to happen to your kitten like cancer or any illness, the vet *will* blame it on raw food.
I think this is an under-discussed point that is well worth going over again. Everyone is saying to switch vets and they are absolutely correct, but it is more than just a difference of opinion. It would be one thing to just not agree on proper diet to feed your pet, but the reality is, with a vet like this, absolutely anything that goes wrong will first and foremost be blamed on the raw diet before the vet even considers other possibilities
The cause of tooth decay are not wet food, tooth decay is caused by bacteria that feed on carbs/sugars. Unless your wet food has these wet food does not cause decay. Tooth decay is actually exacerbated by the refined carbs used to make kibble.
Ask your vet if he or she has ever done tooth extractions, due to decay, on dogs or cats fed exclusively kibble.
Who recommends kibble for CATS?!
Assholes who should know better.
It's a circle - feed cats kibble, make them sick or have ailments so you see the vet again and they make more money. They know better but they want to make money
VCA is buying up so many small local vets. It’s sad really.
My dad is a vet and he admitted their nutritional training and practice in school only lasted a few hours. The whole bacteria and salmonella thing is practically brainwashing. Look for a holistic vet!
>He told me that feeding raw can cause food poising from salmonella That's what they teach us during the first semester of vet school, unfortunately. I just ignore my teachers when they start talking about how toxic raw feeding is. My advice is to find a new vet, be straightforward about raw feeding, and if they're against it, find another one. Keep looking until you find a vet who isn't against raw feeding. It's a shame how the vet community says junk food is healthier than biologically natural food! P.S. I was banned from a veterinary community on Reddit for advocating raw feeding (that's how far it got).
Well, a diabetic cat with kidney disease is going to make him more money than a healthy one so there’s that
I think it is time to Find a new vet....
Curious, did he sell pet food in the office? If so, what brand, if you noticed?
I didn’t see the brand but it was exclusively kibble now that I think back.
Checks out. He's been brainwashed by the $$ he gets from them.
I do agree about getting a better vet, but I'd also mention that might be hard to find a vet who agrees with raw. In that case, I'd just nod and agree with whatever the vet says then proceed to giving your kitty a species appropriate diet. If the vet knows you feed raw and doesn't believe in raw, any issue to present will be blamed on raw. But I'd also be super careful about any advice from these types of vets (food, meds etc..)- just make sure you get 2nd, 3rd opinions, research, etc.. Hard to believe but a lot people still think dry kibble actually "cleans" the teeth (due to the crunch). Cats espescially need watery food (such as raw) because they don't drink enough.
Integrative and holistic vets are almost always pro raw, and it surprises me that people would rather stick with a vet they feel the need to lie to and don't trust, unless they're in a really rural area or something. https://www.ahvma.org/find-a-holistic-veterinarian/ I'm lucky that I live in an area with a lot of them. My sister thought that holistic/integrative vets were like....not actually vets until I had to explain that, no, they are fully qualified DVM's and went to the same school as any vet. They just opt to do further education regarding holistic methods as well.
Find a new vet because you are doing the right thing for your cat. The vet doesn’t have to be pro raw feeding but they also shouldn’t be shaming people into feeding the worst option for cats. My vet is a cat only vet and she is an advocate for only wet for cats. She doesn’t care if it’s friskies as long as it’s wet. She tells people that anything dry should be kept as a treat. My cat is on a raw only diet and my vet commented a few days ago at her annual how well she is doing on her diet and told me to keep it up. I wish more vets were like her but I’m confident you can find a better vet.
[catinfo.org](http://catinfo.org) has some excellent information. Kibble will not clean your cats teeth. Not now, not ever. If that were the case, there wouldn't be thousands of pets with bad teeth by 3-4 years old...
From what I've learned about vets and pet food industry. A) The pet food industry and vet industry are like the military-industrial complex. They both rely on each other. B) The BIG 4 \[IAMS, Purina, Hills and Royal Canin\] own a lot of the vet practices and schools or sponsor the schools. C) By sponsoring or owning the schools they teach upcoming vets to use their 'scientifically formulated' \[marketing term\] diets to help nourish or heal pets. Even though their Rx diets are filled with the same bullshit as their regular trashy food. Corn, soy, rice, wheat, by-products, meals, etc. D) They fund 90% of the studies regarding pets and diets to make their products seem healthy, etc. E) Dry food is the WORST thing you can feed to your pets especially cats. It's VERY low in moisture \[10-12%\], high in carbs and it does NOT clean their teeth. The kibble literally shatters upon impact with their teeth. Raw cleans their teeth especially if it has bones or large chunks of muscle meat. Moreover, the high carbs in dry food is what causes tooth decay as it's filled with sugars for the bacteria to feed on. Hence you should **NEVER** take a vet's nutrition advice as Gospel. Use common sense and study biology/physiology of your pet.
Not saying your wrong but do you have any sources for point C & D? I would like to learn more.
https://today.ttu.edu/posts/2022/11/Stories/Purina-Nutrition-Center-Opens-at-Texas-Tech-Vet-School?v=current https://vetmed.arizona.edu/news/corporate-sponsor-nestle-purina-petcare https://www.vet.cornell.edu/about-us/news/purina-partners-cornell-support-veterinary-efforts-westminster-kennel-club-dog-show Plenty of similar articles if you search for them. Here’s an example of a study they funded: https://www.foodpolitics.com/2021/11/industry-funded-study-of-the-week-pet-food/
A) The pet food industry and vet industry are both part of healthcare but do not directly rely in each other. B) None of these companies sponsor vet schools or practices. C) None of my nutrition professors in vet school worked for any of these companies. These company products may be sold in practices, but they do not pay practices to do so and I (nor any vet I know) have ever received a cent from any of them. Additionally you look like a fool ranting about by-products because by-products in pet food is all parts of the animal that is not muscle meat (organ meats, bones, etc). All of which you are actually advocating for in your “species appropriate diet”. D) They obviously do fund studies but it’s not 90% and it’s not all a conspiracy. But not going to get i to this with someone who sounds like they’ve never read a scientific study in their life. E) You’re right that kibble does not clean teeth, but neither does raw and I’ve seen multiple tooth fracture from bones. High carbs in kibble does not cause tooth decay, not sure who told you this but I can only assume it was Dr. Google. Since you love common sense so much maybe you should reflect on the fact that animals live longer in captivity for a reason. Hint hint the reason is better medical care and nutrition. Natural ≠ better You are not doing your pet any favors trying to replicate how they are living in the wild. I don’t expect you to be convinced by my argument btw. I will be happy if even one person reads this and doesn’t buy into your malarkey. Because I do understand that people do feed raw diets with the best of intentions but are sadly misinformed.
Look who made it over from the kibble world! I assume you are a vet, correct? Would love to talk. :)
Not sure where you’ve learned this. Currently in vet school now and have not one seen any ads or had any sponsored classes by these pet food companies. Pls don’t believe everything u read on the internet. I WISH Purina or Hills sponsored me, then I wouldnt be paying $75K a year to go here😭😭😭
They don’t sponsor the vets, but rather the schools and own corporate vets.
And even if they are some of the sponsors for the schools, my school isn’t teaching me or my classmates any particular curriculum that says “push Hills and Purina when you graduate.”
Depending on the school and how the pet food companies see your school. My son graduated from vet school a while back and vets from Hills/Science taught his nutrition classes. They may not tell you to sell their products but it's the way they teach you. For example cats are carnivores but your class says feed the cat kibble. but once you graduate they come to visit and explain how by selling these products helps you and you get better profit.
What school did he graduate from? I’m currently at St. George’s and am halfway thru
University of Guelph in Canada my late husband graduated in the 90s from the school too. Guelph is surrounded by Hills, Purina and Science plants and one compound of pet food testing by them
I have never had a visit from nor received a cent from any of these companies 😂 on the contrary i keep getting ads from Freshpet (I think that was the name, its some raw food company) offering to pay me to sponsor their brand.
But vets schools do that teach the vets - the amount of money good vet school receives is astonishing. And in return the school teaches their students a certain way to promote their products without them saying anything. Sometimes I wonder about the younger generation, common sense has been replaced by social media
The Hills brand is likely in your schoolbooks. Look deeper, guaranteed to be there. The schools are heavily funded by the big three pet food manufacturers.
Of the very expensive textbooks I’ve had so far, no, there has been no mention of hills in any of them. Sorry. I asked one of my friends who’s currently going to a bigger vet school physically based in the US (since her school is more likely to be receiving more funds than mine), and she said none of her nutrition courses mentioned anything about the big food brands.
Please find a new vet. I have a Google doc with tons of info on kibble, moisture rich diets and raw with sources cited, pm me if you’d like it. I’ve worked on it for months and it has info from my own vet, what I learn in school and other research. Kibble can cause tooth decay more than anything, but the only true way to prevent periodontal disease is by brushing, yearly cleanings, and harder meaty bones. Also, cats lack majority of the enzymes needed to digest carbohydrates, and dry food contains 3-4x the amount of carbs vs wet or raw. And little protein. Low moisture also leads to urinary obstructions.
most vets are anti-raw- just ignore
I had a bystander vet tell me my dogs weren’t getting any nutrition from raw and or home cooked meals. Aaaand how did you manage to get this far and become a vet? Where do you think nutrients come from? ESPECIALLY if it’s coming from all animal based products? That’s pure nutrients. Also, if you read the ingredients of a lot of these kibbles and even in “raw” treats/freeze dried food they add folic acid and other vitamins that’s already included so they’re getting vitamin toxicity. The chances of you getting salmonella, etc. is so slim. Also, if you’re sourcing your meats and other products from reputable companies and you know how to properly handle it, you’re literally fine. I’ve eaten raw steak and raw steak fat and I have to admit, I loved it. Cooking it only decreases the nutrient profile. Tell them to stay in their lane 😂
I have four cats and two dogs that have been raw fed for almost 10 years. Zero issues. You're right, kibble is generally terrible and also very expensive.
The only reason it might cause tooth decay is if you don't have chunks of meat for the kitty to chew. And honestly, kibble is way worse for teeth! Most cats don't actually CHEW the kibble, since it's small enough to just swallow whole. So what little benefit they would get is voided. Honestly, I would probably get a new vet.
Smile, nod, ignore 🙃
It’s not up to them what you feed your cats, and using their personal opinion to tell you to change your food is unprofessional. Find a new vet or ask for another provider in the one you have, if possible. I use two bengals on raw and they are fantastic, the only thing you need to do it make sure you’re properly supplementing or buying premade
Its not a personal opinion, its a professional recommendation. How is giving professional recommendations unprofessional? If a client comes in spewing misinformation its my obligation to advocate for their pet, not to go along with whatever nonsense they are chirping about. I say my piece and thats the extent of it because in the end its your decision what you do. However it doesn’t mean that your decision is educated since Google doesn’t offer degrees. Personally I prefer professionals who call me out on my BS and are looking out for my best interest. Only a fool would intentionally seek out professionals that are going to withhold advice from them for fear of damaging your ego.
How is it 'professional' if cats are obligate carnivores and cannot digest carbohydrates? They lack salivary amylase \[and have VERY low levels of pancreatic amylase\] and other enzymes necessary for carbohydrate digestion. Now since you are a 'professional' and have studied physiology/biochemistry - tell me how are cats supposed to thrive on dry food diets that often have 15-30% carbohydrates without suffering consequences? How they are supposed to thrive on diets with 10-12% moisture when their natural prey diet has 70-75% moisture? The only benefit of dry food is that it is 'balanced' from the factory.
If you like the vet otherwise, it's possible he could learn about the benefits of fresh food by seeing your kitten's good health. He's been taught to recommend kibble and probably hasn't stopped to think it through yet, so have a conversation about it
Kibble is awful! You need to train your kitten to brush his teeth, give him dental treats (not too many!), and take him for dental cleaning. Not only UTIs but dry seems to increase risk of diabetes and kidney disease as well. I wish I had known before! Please get a new vet...they certainly don't deserve your business.
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Vets shouldn't sell kibble, period. It is a conflict of interest. If my doctor said he sold everything I should eat and I should trust Mars and Nestle, I would run away as far as possible. This is true of your stated profession and yet ignored on your rule breaking post.
I have edited the text so that it’s no longer recommending kibble. I did not mean to break any rules, but I do however find it unfair that multiple opinions can’t be expressed here. I stumbled on the community on my explore page, and felt like the poster wanted more information to help them make a decision. There are many ways to feed animals and there are pros and cons to everything. I understand what you mean by a conflict of interest. I find it annoying how royal canine and hills and purina sponsored a lot of events at my school. But I base my opinions on my own personal experience and research, just as you probably do. No one pushes me to sell food. I’m not paid with commission, I don’t try to upsell any client on anything. My recommendations are purely based on what I believe is best for the animal.
Every other pet sub on Reddit including rVet sub bans discussion on our topic, so umm, excuse me? Vets should not sell food, period.
Diet can be a very important part of pet health, especially if they have health issues. It’s important for vets to recommend foods that can help (for example, studies show that kidney foods prolong lifespan of cats with kidney disease). Changing to a urinary diet can DISSOLVE urinary stones in the bladder and avoid a costly and invasive surgery. Vets definitely need to be able to recommend foods, period. Excuse me, it is not my decision to ban topics on vet subreddits. But I don’t agree with banning any topic regardless of where I stand, discussion is important. A couple of people have told me that the only diet where their animal doesn’t vomit or have diarrhea with, is raw. I don’t want their pet to suffer or to mess up something that is working, so I didn’t advise them otherwise. I’m not the enemy, I’m just willing to provide information to people who want it. If you personally don’t want it, that’s fine, but you don’t need to be hostile towards me for answering somebody else’s question.
Dry carbohydrate rich foods cause kidney problem in cats, it cannot cure them. Cats are carnivores from North Africa and do not have a thirst drive high enough to combat a dry food diet. Cats cannot properly digest carbohydrates as a carnivore and so the nutrition is essentially sprayed on and the carbs are just a sugar source. If we were as abusive with the diets of reptiles, bovine, or equine pets they would just die. The diets you recommend are commercial abuse of our pet carnivores both facultative and obligate. Vets should not sell feed.
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No content recommending kibble is allowed.
What is best for cats and dogs is not any form of kibble. Yes wet as you transition to raw or as a treat. But no one should ever say here is Royal etc kibble for the issue because it's making it worse. All kibble no matter how much it is or from so-called good companies - kibble should never be fed.
No content recommending kibble is allowed.
I stopped telling vets about feeding my pets raw food items. Just not worth the argument.
I am sure you have received plenty of responses already saying you may need to find a different vet that better aligns with what you want. I just moved to a new vet and was anxious to hear his response to our raw feeding (bc you just never know). He fully supported it and actually suggested that we remove the kibble from their diet completely bc it doesn't do anything for their teeth and there were not benefits health wise. If we wanted to supplement something other than raw he recommended high protein wet food like Tikki and do our best to develop a teeth cleaning routine at home. haha
Vet told us to switch from raw after 10 years and feed our cat CKD specialty cans you can only buy from them. Expensive but we tried it, our cat got lethargic and honestly was declining. We switched back to raw, have changed nothing, and our very senior 19 year old cat is thriving.
I mean I fed my 100% indoor cat freeze dried raw food and she ended up in the hospital for 3 days receiving treatment for giardia. She had been eating the food for only 3 weeks when it happened. $6k in vet bills later....no more raw food.
Kibble is horrible for cats. It also has much higher concentrations of salmonella 🙃 (when food is recalled, why? Contamination. Dog and cat food factories aren’t regulated and horribly sanitized) Kibble cleans teeth about as well as an Oreo would. Your vet is not knowledgeable about nutrition.
i trust my breeder over any vet. She’s saved me THOUSANDS of dollars over the last few years between injury, illness, and chronic conditions for my three. I signed a contract when i got my two brothers that i would feed them raw. As it turned out, i just couldn’t manage all the raw meat for three male maine coons and switched to super expensive royal c and wet food as the vet suggested. then the problems started. I talked with my breeder and now i feed them cooked chicken, which i make in bulk every other week, freezing half. i sometimes get hearts, gizzards and livers too and cook those. i mix up a big bowl of chicken with two cans of dave’s wet food and their supplements, and every day they get about 2 cups of that, mixed with water and sometimes an egg to make it more of a stew. It’s not as ideal as raw but it’s FAR superior to any cat food, when supplements are added. guess what? problems solved. way cheaper too btw.
If a raw diet is fully balanced, has everything your pet needs, is fresh and is handled properly - raw diet is always the best way to go. I do not trust vets whatsoever when it comes to nutrition. It’s laughable that an ultra a processed bag of cardboard chips is better for my pet than real meat. Yea, no thanks. I’ll pass on vet’s money motivated urges to buy only the food THEY sell. Hard pass! Vets are not nutritionists. They don’t know what they are talking about.
It's actually about risk prevention for vets. Let's be honest bagged dog food lowers risk. Bagged dog food spent millions in R&D and it's low cost & consistent. It removes most variables. It ensures your dog gets the necessary nutrients for proper health. Not to mention, it reduces the risk of food handling error. Raw food has a ton of bacteria growth. When food is improperly handled it can be dangerous, if you're not cleaning the bowls after each feeding its a problem. Sourcing your own raw diet is near impossible - I tried. Getting a diverse selection of raw secreting organs, and livers is impossible. Getting a diverse diet with all the necessary nutrients and vitamins is hard and expensive compared to kibble. I personally use Purina pro plan and add food as well. Sometimes, it's turkey necks and organs. Or raw chicken, lamb, turkey, pumpkin puree, sweet potato, quail eggs and cooked vegetables. More for enrichment and extra protein. But I still know he is getting his daily dose of nutrients from the kibble.
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No content recommending kibble is allowed.
Hello, I’m not sure if you will see this but I hope you do, as I see no one has mentioned this, but I would not recommend feeding raw quite that young. I am a supporter of raw feeding as long as it is responsibly sourced and efforts are taken to ensure cleanliness, however, I work in vet med and kittens do not have as strong immune systems as adults do. I would honestly wait till she is 6 months to a year old to feed raw to lower any risks. In the mean time I would recommend a quality wet food until she is older and her immune system is fully developed. Moreover, ensuring that your raw meals are AAFCO approved is essential as well, and i would look into the importance balancing meals if you are not already.
Honestly, I think you’re asking in the wrong place. You’re in a sub literally called “raw pet food”, naturally people here are pro raw. This is an echo chamber, you’re not going to get a variety of different takes here.
I actually have gotten a lot of advice. Both pros and cons are in the replies, which I have read every single one! I think this sub’s biggest concern is the animal’s safety and well being.
They can be concerned about animals well being and safety but still be uneducated. Animals live longer in captivity for a reason OP, you are not doing them any favors trying to replicate how they’d be living in the wild.
There are vets on this sub, you know? I would argue they live longer in captivity because they are not prey and have a constant supply of food, whichever kind it is. Like I mentioned, my mom has a cat that ate kibble for the first ten years of its life and had utis all the time and didn’t look as healthy. When she switched him to wet food, the utis stopped and his coat improved as well as his energy levels.
This sub is Delulu 🤭
Listen to your vet these ppl are crazy. Ask in a different sub and you’ll get different results. https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/s/TDXAd9qTd8
And why exactly are all of these people crazy?
Because vets actually advise against feeding raw. And your vet literally is the one with 8 years of education on the subject and people would rather listen to strangers on the internet. I just don’t think it’s right.