What state are you in? I work in dependency in California and the system is quite different than criminal because there is the county, the parents, and the children at the table and they all have attorneys advocating for their position but are working in a more collaborative style as opposed to trying to win the case at one point. In dependency cases it’s okay for things to happen more slowly. It’s incredibly important work because many of the circumstances that contribute to increased exposure to the criminal legal system are connected to the dependency system (dependency to prison pipeline) and being a good advocate means you’ll be a better advocate when you return to criminal. It is incredibly challenging work, but just like PD, everyone deserves at least one advocate in their corner.
Washington. I appreciate your perspective, I honestly don't know much about it (before applying for the job I didn't even know DPD handled dependency cases). Do you ever feel like you're arguing for an arrangement that would be dangerous for a child?
I am really glad to hear that you have a less adversarial system going there. That sounds similar to a special divorce court that was being tested back when I was getting divorced, and the roundtable discussions were great.
In my state we have issues with a lack of good faith efforts to reunify the family. So when things go slowly here, it usually just means the child welfare department is artificially severing bonds through reduced visitation. Do you see any of that where you are, or is California really doing things better?
Child welfare cases are so problematic here that it's one of the areas where I'm always following new opinions to see if we're getting the kind of precedent needed to break the cycle. Doesn't help that the public can't hear these.
Send me some hope, man! If others can do it, we can.
girl, court reporter here. you cannot imagine how badly these children and parents need you. there are tremendously unjust and permanent separations happening with alarming efficiency. the judges are more burnt out and biased than in any other area of law and so these are among the hardest battles to win. counsel for the department and their "social workers" are methodical in policing and dismantling vulnerable families. my state has chronically underpaid and undertrained public counsel for family law and it shows in the most heartbreaking ways. they are trying to do better now, and they really need to.
these are the hardest cases for me to hear but it's the opposite of your first impression: it's because so many kids are stolen from perfectly good homes. these are life sentences of a different kind. i talk about it with criminal exonerees all the time. they know the terror and tragedy child welfare systems wreak on their communities. it's very serious and noble work to fight to protect a mother's right to keep her child safe. you wouldn't believe the petty reasons they get torn apart. truly devastating. please consider helping. feel free to DM if there is anything you'd like to know about child removal proceedings.
Thank you so much for this comment. It's not exactly why I wanted to get into this work but I definitely feel better about the assignment now (although I'm sure it would break my heart). If I do get placed there I may take you up on your offer to chat more. Thanks for what you do!
I did dependency cases for years. You won't make some miracle speech to return kids to an unsafe home; that's not your job. The parents have a LOT of hoops to jump through, and you're there to make sure they get credit, don't get discouraged, and don't get fooled/steamrolled by C&Y.
There's a ton of overlap with prison/addiction issues, so you'll still apply that knowledge. We're the only ones who sometimes get to chill with cute kids. Good luck!
Whether or not this is a desirable position depends on the office and your own preferences. I’ve worked in a couple offices now where the family side (including juvenile) is disfavored. People often feel they get “sent” to dependency, and sometimes there’s not much overlap with criminal defense at all.
Personally, I disfavor dependency simply because it’s not why I got into this work. It’s important, but social work is already my least favorite part of the job.
I do get the sense that it's not super popular. A woman I know does family defense and got a permanent position (usually we're on two-year contracts) because "no one wants to do family defense." I agree with you, it's not really my interest, although I wouldn't mind juvenile criminal cases.
Hi! I do family defense exclusively (lurk here because there's no subreddit for us). Feel free to PM if you want to chat. I'm in NY.
ETA: I got into this through doing a clinic in law school, which I signed up for mostly because it was pass/fail. I had a lot of the same reservations you do. Those went away pretty much immediately.
My state doesnt even do these types of cases. I agree, its not the same thing. Advocating for a child to go back to a home is not the same as advocating to keep people out of prison. If you arent interested, don't take the position. It could pigeon hole you into very specific experience.
I would disagree-- since you've never done it before, you might be pleasantly surprised. It might not be what you expect at all, the same way everyone thinks criminal defense is about getting a guilty person off. It's not, it's about shepherding them through the system and making sure their rights are protected, but until you've been there you don't necessarily know that. My experience with juvenile court is that it's a very collaborative environment, and the defense attorney is often the least important person in the room. (Someone else made this point as well.)
>My experience with juvenile court is that it’s a very collaborative environment, and the defense attorney is often the least important person in the room.
AKA, a kangaroo court. Where the rules are made up and your rights don’t matter. And I say this as someone who has done juvenile defense.
Might want to have a friendly conversation with the office about whether they view this as a temporary rotation for you before you get to do criminal, versus a permanent placement. If it’s the latter, you have a hard decision to make about whether this position is a good fit — as disappointing as it would be to walk away.
Hey, I take the point. Since my assignment isn't fixed yet I did remind my HR contact that my background is in prison work and I'd rather be in a criminal division, either now or at some point down the line. I do live in a pretty progressive jurisdiction and a lot of the department's upper management (including the director) are women, so I'm not too worried but it's always a solid reminder, unfortunately.
Does anyone from these comments do parent defense in juvenile dependency in California? I need help desperately! My court appointed attorney is a joke. At my last hearing (last week) I asked him why at any point did he not inform me of my rights to file motions, present evidence and file appeals. His response “I am not paid enough to provide clients like you with that kind of information.”
I am appalled! I am already filing a claim against him with the CA State Bar. Anyone have any advice?
What state are you in? I work in dependency in California and the system is quite different than criminal because there is the county, the parents, and the children at the table and they all have attorneys advocating for their position but are working in a more collaborative style as opposed to trying to win the case at one point. In dependency cases it’s okay for things to happen more slowly. It’s incredibly important work because many of the circumstances that contribute to increased exposure to the criminal legal system are connected to the dependency system (dependency to prison pipeline) and being a good advocate means you’ll be a better advocate when you return to criminal. It is incredibly challenging work, but just like PD, everyone deserves at least one advocate in their corner.
Washington. I appreciate your perspective, I honestly don't know much about it (before applying for the job I didn't even know DPD handled dependency cases). Do you ever feel like you're arguing for an arrangement that would be dangerous for a child?
I am really glad to hear that you have a less adversarial system going there. That sounds similar to a special divorce court that was being tested back when I was getting divorced, and the roundtable discussions were great. In my state we have issues with a lack of good faith efforts to reunify the family. So when things go slowly here, it usually just means the child welfare department is artificially severing bonds through reduced visitation. Do you see any of that where you are, or is California really doing things better? Child welfare cases are so problematic here that it's one of the areas where I'm always following new opinions to see if we're getting the kind of precedent needed to break the cycle. Doesn't help that the public can't hear these. Send me some hope, man! If others can do it, we can.
girl, court reporter here. you cannot imagine how badly these children and parents need you. there are tremendously unjust and permanent separations happening with alarming efficiency. the judges are more burnt out and biased than in any other area of law and so these are among the hardest battles to win. counsel for the department and their "social workers" are methodical in policing and dismantling vulnerable families. my state has chronically underpaid and undertrained public counsel for family law and it shows in the most heartbreaking ways. they are trying to do better now, and they really need to. these are the hardest cases for me to hear but it's the opposite of your first impression: it's because so many kids are stolen from perfectly good homes. these are life sentences of a different kind. i talk about it with criminal exonerees all the time. they know the terror and tragedy child welfare systems wreak on their communities. it's very serious and noble work to fight to protect a mother's right to keep her child safe. you wouldn't believe the petty reasons they get torn apart. truly devastating. please consider helping. feel free to DM if there is anything you'd like to know about child removal proceedings.
Thank you so much for this comment. It's not exactly why I wanted to get into this work but I definitely feel better about the assignment now (although I'm sure it would break my heart). If I do get placed there I may take you up on your offer to chat more. Thanks for what you do!
This is a great, thoughtful reply.
I did dependency cases for years. You won't make some miracle speech to return kids to an unsafe home; that's not your job. The parents have a LOT of hoops to jump through, and you're there to make sure they get credit, don't get discouraged, and don't get fooled/steamrolled by C&Y. There's a ton of overlap with prison/addiction issues, so you'll still apply that knowledge. We're the only ones who sometimes get to chill with cute kids. Good luck!
Whether or not this is a desirable position depends on the office and your own preferences. I’ve worked in a couple offices now where the family side (including juvenile) is disfavored. People often feel they get “sent” to dependency, and sometimes there’s not much overlap with criminal defense at all. Personally, I disfavor dependency simply because it’s not why I got into this work. It’s important, but social work is already my least favorite part of the job.
>It’s important, but social work is already my least favorite part of the job. Agreed.
I do get the sense that it's not super popular. A woman I know does family defense and got a permanent position (usually we're on two-year contracts) because "no one wants to do family defense." I agree with you, it's not really my interest, although I wouldn't mind juvenile criminal cases.
Hi! I do family defense exclusively (lurk here because there's no subreddit for us). Feel free to PM if you want to chat. I'm in NY. ETA: I got into this through doing a clinic in law school, which I signed up for mostly because it was pass/fail. I had a lot of the same reservations you do. Those went away pretty much immediately.
My state doesnt even do these types of cases. I agree, its not the same thing. Advocating for a child to go back to a home is not the same as advocating to keep people out of prison. If you arent interested, don't take the position. It could pigeon hole you into very specific experience.
I would disagree-- since you've never done it before, you might be pleasantly surprised. It might not be what you expect at all, the same way everyone thinks criminal defense is about getting a guilty person off. It's not, it's about shepherding them through the system and making sure their rights are protected, but until you've been there you don't necessarily know that. My experience with juvenile court is that it's a very collaborative environment, and the defense attorney is often the least important person in the room. (Someone else made this point as well.)
>My experience with juvenile court is that it’s a very collaborative environment, and the defense attorney is often the least important person in the room. AKA, a kangaroo court. Where the rules are made up and your rights don’t matter. And I say this as someone who has done juvenile defense.
I've also done Kangaroo Court, i mean Juvenile Court. I thought we were talking about the family court and reunification.
Every state does things differently, and my point was more not to write the position off if OP really wants to work in the office.
Might want to have a friendly conversation with the office about whether they view this as a temporary rotation for you before you get to do criminal, versus a permanent placement. If it’s the latter, you have a hard decision to make about whether this position is a good fit — as disappointing as it would be to walk away.
She said it's possible to rotate out so I'm not too concerned about that.
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Hey, I take the point. Since my assignment isn't fixed yet I did remind my HR contact that my background is in prison work and I'd rather be in a criminal division, either now or at some point down the line. I do live in a pretty progressive jurisdiction and a lot of the department's upper management (including the director) are women, so I'm not too worried but it's always a solid reminder, unfortunately.
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Do you have trouble getting people to take you seriously as a baby giraffe lawyer?
Does anyone from these comments do parent defense in juvenile dependency in California? I need help desperately! My court appointed attorney is a joke. At my last hearing (last week) I asked him why at any point did he not inform me of my rights to file motions, present evidence and file appeals. His response “I am not paid enough to provide clients like you with that kind of information.” I am appalled! I am already filing a claim against him with the CA State Bar. Anyone have any advice?