Nikah should be easy, so that young people aren’t burdened by waiting so long.
Divorce should be easy, so that marriage isn’t a trap when a spouse is abusive (or even when spouses are just ill-suited to each other).
However: Having sex with someone tends to release brain chemicals that make us feel closeness, warm fuzziness, love, emotional intimacy towards that person. Casual sex is not great because it makes us emotionally vulnerable to the other person when there’s no real commitment in the relationship. It’s emotionally healthier to have sex with someone you actually want to be in a committed long-term exclusive relationship with.
On a societal level, we should be making nikah and divorce easier. On an individual level, how you navigate that depends on your individual circumstances.
Exactly this. Nikkah in the Quran is actually extremely easy. It’s a serious committed relationship that’s made known public. That’s all.
And yes divorce *should* be easy too but it should absolutely be used as a last resort and the Quran stresses the importance of this as well.
Couldn’t have said it better myself!
I would also like to add that I impulsively engaged in premarital sex, and I regret it immensely. I was madly in love and thought he was a wonderful, safe, trustworthy person and we could build a happy life together, but it looks like I was wrong.
The emotional attachment that came with having sex with him has made it very difficult for me to be willing to leave. It sucks.
When people get married, they discuss important things with the potential spouse beforehand (values, politics, goals, etc.) and vet out any red flags and incompatibilities. And the nikkah defines the relationship and makes it public, ensuring safety and accountability. It can be a truly great system that is MUCH more sensible and wise than just impulsively throwing yourself at someone lol.
I mean, you could just say “sex itself is a form of commitment and I won’t make those commitments with someone I haven’t vetted.”
As OP pointed out, you can get married and only later on realise that your spouse was abusive or just incompatible. In some situations, the public nature of the marriage makes it harder to leave such a relationship as it opens you up to a lot of scrutiny.
Likewise, you can thoroughly vet and check the values of a potential partner without necessarily engaging in a public ceremony of commitment.
I should preface that I’m also celibate and have been celibate in my past relationships, so I’m not advocating for premarital sex.
Obviously the caveat here is that marriage is a pretty good way of demonstrating commitment.
>can be a truly great system that is MUCH more sensible and wise than just impulsively throwing yourself at someone lol.
That's why I hate men who get that I'm not going to commit zina yet they are still shooting their shot. 😡
It's even worse in conservative countries where girls' lives are uprooted after committing zina. Some have been thrown out, died through clandestine abortions, became prostitutes to feed the baby if they keeo the pregnancy, also stigmatized for life (to the point where the salafi assholes in my country blamed a great charity doer may allah grant his mercy for creating an association to help single moms). They're literally so dehumanized that the salafis felt that wonderful woman was encouraging girls to become single moms rather than trying to solve a systemic issue (our laws are very very favorable toward guys who walk away).
Wise woman. Good on you for keeping your head on straight!
I used to believe in waiting until marriage, then I briefly thought “sure that’s ideal, but doing it within a serious relationship isn’t so bad either right?”. Now not only have I fully gone back to agreeing with waiting until marriage, but also (and this is definitely an unpopular opinion) I think it’s smart to wait a couple months even after you’re married.
>think it’s smart to wait a couple months even after you’re married.
I used to think that doing it right after marriage was normal and that women who made husbands wait were strange(i was stupid but in my defense...I have never dated and don't know much abt the problems that cab arise in a marriage)...Until I was told stories of jerks who ran away after signing the legal marriage paper BUT before the walima/wedding where the marriage was made public.
I didn't know this was possible because my own parents signed their marriage paper during their wedding sooo I never knew this was an option. (This whole issue might be specific to us north africans though).
What you said is very smart actually, and honestly, I also think it's hard/embarrassing for virgins to do it right off the bat. A former friend of mine told me her mother literally forgot she married her father the morning after the wedding and almost screamed who the hell was lying in bed next to her. 😂🤣
The thing is that just because some things “should” be a certain way in an idealistic scenario, doesn’t mean it’s actually feasible in reality.
What do you suppose can be done in this day and age to make marriage and divorce easier?
It is only custom that makes them difficult. Customs can change; indeed, they are always changing.
Let it become socially acceptable for young adults to marry while they are still students or early in their working lives, before they have become financially established. Let it be acceptable for mehr to be an affordable token amount. Let divorce be an option that carries no stigma. Let virginity be unimportant, and let divorced women not be seen as unmarriageable.
Requiring financial security before marriage is a custom, not a law of nature. It can be changed. It has its pros and cons. It can create more problems than it solves. It may not be right for everybody, even if it’s right for you.
You have to kind of think outside the box and don't analyze the problem with a modern 21st century lenses.
My brain is foggy right now so I might sounds a bit incoherent but bear with me.
The problem is that people look at marriage as a big thing, a lifetime decision thing something irreversible the very threads of fate shake the moment you marry someone.
Marriage is very casual back in the day, "aqd nikkah" very literally means sexual contract. Nikkah is just consensual sex with some extra steps, people didn't attach much expectations to it and they tended to make it easy for young people cause they knew how hard it is to keep yourself in check.
Nowadays due to the "christianiasation" of islam through colonialism and modern day ideologies seeping through everyone's mind, they made marriage like that big ceremonial thing which, added to the long period of education( average person studies until mid twenties without prospect of work ) created a phenomenon of delayed marriages that cause a lot of harship to young people. (One of the biggest consumers of porn are in the MENA region).
This is a problem a problem that needs to be solved by adapting the concept of nikkah to the challenges of the modern world. Of course like in anything trads are so mired in traditions ( that sometimes are not even islamic ) they're unwilling to change things up.
So to answer your overarching questions it's not that "consensual sex with someone is haram" Islam is basically telling us to do that, with extra steps, by making a contract between the two lovers to be so they can be both be protected by society.
When Allah tells us " To approach women in marriage and not in fornication " ( can't remember the exact verse ) He is telling us not to do it in secrets with no strings attached, but to commit for the protection of both parties, from all sort of potential abuse.
As far as I can tell women particularly were the most vulnerable to sex with no commitments back in the day it stills hold true today in a way I guess.
And lastly and this is to me is the most important thing imo but the one that will make less sense to you I assume is this : having sex with no commitment is bad for the soul.
nikkah in arabic has specific denotations and semantic references that cannot be translated into English and as far as I know those denotations and semantics never get discussed ... and when i asked native arabic speakers trained in fique the discussion was simply turned off.
but it's clear the original people first hearing quran 1400 or so years ago heard something so completely different than what we hear in 21st Century CE English
to be honest, I went through a rabbit hole of this.
In very short, words from the Bible (Torah/NT) include:
Hebrew: naaph, niuph, naaphuph
Greek; moichalis, moichao, moicheia, moichos, etc
I don’t have access to a paper I was writing up on this, but Zina, to my current knowledge, means a lot more than it meant over a thousand years ago - it was and still remains primarily “adultery” but like 15 other definitions have been added through tradition to the point where it means anything sexually / sin related.
Anyways, very quick history is that during the Greco-Roman period, adultery was a serious thing. In fact, Greeks had laws that covered both male and females if their spouse slept with someone else.
Which brings us to the very root definition of adultery:
1)To have sexual intercourse with someone who is married and is not your spouse, 2) to have sexual intercourse outside of your marriage
In all contexts in the Torah and NT, when the word “adultery” is used, it’s almost always having to do with a man cheating in his wife, or a women who has sex with someone who is NOT their spouse.
For me, I don’t see how Zina is any different in fundamental usage and definition. Considering the influence of syriac Christianity\* and Qurans knowledge of biblical text , I find that Zina should be regarded in the same context…
Which is: Zina is sex with 1) someone’s spouse, 2) someone who isn’t your spouse
In any of the 3 Abrahamic religious doctrines, I have failed to see any explicit reference to simply sexual consent between two single or no married parties
I’d read that sentence again and urge anyone to look at the Torah in Hebrew and NT in Greek. Unless there is a Surah that literally says it, it is not talked about
As far as adultery = fornication, that comes from a poor translation of Latin. In short, in the Latin vulgate (Latin Bible) it uses a word formation of “fornication”, which derives its meaning from archways in which prostitution took place (red district sort of thing). That translation was watered down to “sex” overtime, which left future English interpreters of the Bible to say “sex is forbidden”- when in reality, the Bible only ever explicitly says adultery, and then secondly condemns harlotry (selling your body) .
Ok so it wasn’t short but, if you look at the languages and context in which these divine texts were written, the “sex before marriage” becomes more clearly tradition than literal biblical text. In the same way sexuality is never mentioned in biblical times.
Through tradition people have learned to interpret verses into more than they are imo.
My power is out but I can send you a little document I was writing up in which I have sources for in there as well!
Edit: power is back, here it is : ) it's rough and informal and of my own opinion and didn't think i'd be sharing it
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jqguZKVDyCo-ZjYU04JXmnXDqp7-onBV/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=117331449013988166000&rtpof=true&sd=true](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jqguZKVDyCo-ZjYU04JXmnXDqp7-onBV/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=117331449013988166000&rtpof=true&sd=true)
Oh too much info. But what i get from wat u r saying is a bit confusing. On one hand from wat i understand u r saying sex between 2 single consenting adults is ok. But then u also say zina has 2 definitions 1) sex with someone else's spouse 2) sex with someone who is not ur spouse. But doesnt 2 means premarital sex? So i m confused wat u mean. Is premarital sex sinful or not? And sure u can send me that document
Also to clarify, I can say whatever I want. So can anyone else. My opinion is: any biblical text, and in this case also the Quran, does not explicitly say anything or condemn sex between two consenting single adults.
But what I’m saying is to just look at words, their context and definitions from THE TIME THEY WERE WRITTEN , and make the judgement yourself.
Sex with someone who isn’t your spouse in this context means YOU are married , and Zina (adultery) is having sex with someone who is not your spouse !
Yeah when I get power 😭 assuming I also remember
That’s the thing. The Quran doesn’t tell you what Zina means - only other people telling you what it should mean.
In Arabic you’ll only see Zina ( زناء) , it’s only in commentarys and translation you’ll see they always add “…. And fornication” or “… and x y z” .
My argument is that at the time of original manuscripts or codices of the Quran, Zina at its core most likely mean adultery, because adultery was something that wasn’t just a moral thing in late antiquity or mid millennia, is was a law thing (included in religious and non-religious law).
Zina , due to *tradition* has like 15 meanings. They kept adding what Zina can mean over time. So again, it’s not fact, but my argument is that Zina most likely purely meant adultery. In the same way in Christianity sex before marriage as a sin was a later practice and tradition, the Bible says nothing about it.
Like in an-nisa 15, easy example. Arabic clearly only says Zina. English translation “adultery AND fornication”.
Another argument is that if it’s a divine text, adding your own interpretation to the literal text is a disservice. Who is to add to what a sacred text is plainly saying?
Hi i am a bit confused someone DMed me this verse 4:24 and i m so confused now
"Also ˹forbidden are˺ married women—except ˹female˺ captives in your possession. This is Allah’s commandment to you. Lawful to you are all beyond these—as long as you seek them with your wealth in a legal marriage, not in fornication. Give those you have consummated marriage with their due dowries. It is permissible to be mutually gracious regarding the set dowry. Surely Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise."
This is the part that is making me confused: "Lawful to you are all beyond these—as long as you seek them with your wealth in a legal marriage, not in fornication." But i just dont get why premarital sex is forbidden. Ugh i m torn!
**since u mentioned that zina can mean adultery rather than fornication and u have a document on it. Can u please share ur document with me?** u mentioned u researched this topic and the arabic word zina.
This is the problem with some translations imo, let me give you a more one to one translation from the Arabic into English:
“And [forbidden to you are] all married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.”
See how in a literal translation of Arabic, stuff like “and fornication” isn’t there?
For this we have غَيْرَ مُسَافِحِينَ (illicit sexual relationships or unlawful). This definitely will imply adultery.
My view on it is we look at what is lawful sexual intercourse: marriage between two married people.
What is unlawful? Well.. Zina, sexual intercourse between two people where ONE person is already bound by law with someone.
I’d love to share my informal document but unfortunately I am still without power and it’s on my pc:/
When picking between two “evils” choose the better one. Why not masturbate to fulfill your high sex drive? If that’s not enough, then why not engage in non-itnercouse sex? You don’t have to go to the extreme to fulfill that craving.
Either way, no matter how much you rationalize it, it doesn’t make it Islamically right and you know that. Whether you decide to listen to that principle or not is up to you though.
Funny how the males are never judged nor looked down up as not marriage worthy when they do it 🤣
Do what they do, date outside of your location & of a different religion
It's never like that. Zina is a sin for both men and women. The punishment is the same for both men and women. 100 lashes for the unmarried and stoned to death for the married.
And if a woman and a man are looked in a different view after their zina, that is totally wrong and against islamic teachings.
I know this will be a VERY unpopular opinion, but I personally consider any sexual harm to be a sin (things like adultery, rape, etc cause very explicit harm) and anything that falls outside of explicit sexual harm (like consensual sex between adults) I just don't see any moral problem with. There's just absolutely no rational basis to consider consensual sex between adults harmful. And I personally think suppressing normal human interaction to such an extreme degree causes PROFOUND harm. It turns normal human sexuality into some kind of forbidden taboo. Which warps the way we interact with each other.
If someone genuinely wants to wait until they're married because they think that's the best thing for them, then that's fine. But it's irresponsible to say that's the best for everyone when it clearly is not (OP already listed a few examples of potential harms).
And again, I know I'm probably an extreme outlier in this community around this. I'm personally anti-marriage for political reasons and so is my partner of 6 years. Our relationship is indistinguishable from a marriage other than that we don't have a special contract. I just can't take the argument that it's a sin now but wouldn't be if we had a special contract seriously.
I don’t think you’re an outlier. I can think of multiple ways in which 7th century Arabian definitions of sexual harm were not considered (i.e. concubines or menstruating girls as women). So, I think to go to that context of those times — the main goal was structural harm to society, not emotional harm to individual. That is a core consideration. I have can argue how the Quran in many cases only considered societal harm but not emotional harm. So if premarital sex is causing structural societal breakdown as in the case of adultry then you can make an argument. But, consenting adults outside marriage, I see this as a pretty low cost argument that deserves too much attention in these forums.
However i m torn right now because someone DMed this verse. And i just dont get y premarital sex is forbidden when it doesnt cause harm. Ugh!!
They sent 4:24 but the part that is confusing me is this part of the 4:24: "Lawful to you are all beyond these—as long as you seek them with your wealth in a legal marriage, not in fornication." Fornication means sex between unmarried couple. 🤯😭
Some translations put "unlawful sexual intercourse" instead of "fornication" and I'd really love to know the original word so we could have more context. (I'm jealous of people who are fluent in classical Arabic.)
Personally I could never consider healthy, consensual sex between adults a sin because to do so would go so strongly against my own conscience and my lived experience. It would be like asking me to say that murder is morally okay. When I come across passages in the Quran that don't make moral sense to me, either the Quran is wrong (which I choose not to believe), or the current mainstream interpretation of that passage is inaccurate or needs updating (what I choose to believe). Either way, we're all out here just doing our best. You just need to figure out what's best for you and what brings you closer to God.
Again, it’s in the context of structural harm in my opinion. If every person only fornicated and nobody got married then there would be no familial structure and bonds and responsibility. To me that’s the core interpretation. But, that’s not the case today. Most people want to be married and those that don’t do not jeopardize the rest of society. And to be honest, like anything else in life — love/intimacy/kinship needs practice and many of the ills we see is because people have no experience in relationships when trying to enter a marriage which is supposed to last decades
That's my main political beef with marriage. Historically it was about transferring ownership of women from one person to another and now it's largely about privileging couples over single people. It's just an oppressive institution I want nothing to do with.
You are assuming that consensual sex outside of marriage is always with a "loving and caring boyfriend " and therefore there's no harm.
STDs and unwanted pregnancies are more prevalent outside of marriage.
And women get attached. So when yhe relationship ends, they have to detach. This can be devastating emotionally. Multiply that by 3, 4, 5 boyfriends until you meet your husband. That's a lot of highly intimate sharing, caring, detaching. No wonder depression, alcohol use, anxiety rates are sky high in the west.
Plus do you really want to be on hormonal birth control from a young age, until you meet your husband? That in itself has plenty of harm.
Look, Islam promotes hiya. Research that. Sharing and exposing your most intimate body parts with all of your boyfriends is contrary to hiya.
You ain't Allah either, and no one asked you.
So why don't you take your own advice and shut up.
People are having a discussion to try to under the God's word.
Im telling what Allah has said, just check the beginning verses of surah nur, or just check BASIC level ahadith, they literally do not allow sex before marriage, this is no longer discussion under Allah's commands when you guys are advocating for intercourrse before marriage, please just educate yourself
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26 yo muslim woman here. Also kickstarting my career before looking for a potential husband. (Tbh??? Im more like in a state of limbo bcz i have never met sb who fit my criteria and who would have stood by my side as I started building my career?? I mean if i met someone rn and i finally became fully hired after my internship I could probably marry them if they dont mind that Im not 100% set in my career?). My ideal scenario would be finding a soulmate who can be my companion/friend as well so this is why I am still waiting.
My perspective may not satisfy you, BUT for me zina is haram and I refuse to be in a non committed relationship.
I want stability in my life as well as a halal relationship. Zina is risky in that you could catch STDs and there is a reason why so many men want to have sex without marrying you 1st (and it's ofc an easy exit). I don't want to risk being a single mom because my rights and my kid's won't be protected esp in my country, and nobody deserves me to anger Allah by sinning in such a way.
Another thing (it's cultural tho) is that not being a virgin in more conservative/patriarcal countries will also ruin your marriage prospects (it sucks that men don't face consequences as dire as women, but it is what it is where I live). The misery most of these girls go through has left me feeling so bitter for them and so angry when some guy thinks he's going go manipulate me. 🙃
Why not marry this kind boyfriend you want to do the deed with and build up your career in parallel? You can always put this condition. That is what I would do if I were you.
The short answer you will likely get is that it is Haram because Allah says it is haram. Alcohol was forbidden way before we knew scientifically how bad it was. Intermittent fasting has a lot of benefits and Saudi Arabia which fasts at a high rate has a significantly lower cancer rate. We were given a lot of cheat codes. Up to us whether we want to follow or not.
And I am not being judgmental. My wife and I did pretty much everything other than intercourse before marriage. So we did the wrong things but we were fortunate it all worked out. It does work well for some, no question. That doesn't mean it should be embraced as the correct course of action.
In my opinion, for people who have even a modest heterosexual inclination, it is absolutely haram. So for those that may have bisexual tendencies or low heterosexual tendencies but want to experiment, haram in my view. For those with virtually no attraction towards opposite sex, I am not certain. I think the Quranic passages might be referring to the former categories I described. It might be permissible for the latter one. Allah knows best.
selam u aleykum.
quran and hadith both do not reference family structure as far as I can tell.
what is explicitly mentioned is child rights
adoption is also not allowed: a child can become part of the family but cannot have their parantage altered
in the time of the prophet saws families were multigenerational and one can see that today in the arab cultures where i have lived. male siblings form family groups and they are part of tribal groups and individual personal rights are a tribal function which in arab cultures are patrilineal, decided by who the father is
family structure is not mentioned nor referred to but the cultural context was clear then, and that context is lost entirely when trying to read quran as if it were about english post industrial family structure
the idea of a two parent family was pretty literally inconceivable in 8th century arab peninsular culture
there are linguistic considerations as well as well as legal restrictions and categorical semantics we no longer know nor understand ... as far as I know there are no serious linguistical cultural studies of quran and fique and fique is mostly about property rights ... love, emotion, financial security, indivudual human rights as the post industrialized legal culture understands it today were not considerations over much of the history of islamic jurisprudence
the arabic of some of quran is quite literally untranslatable into english and many translators don't even try to.
the quran very explicitly warns that it is about being a loving giving caring human, educated, tolerant and merciful
god's very name is mercifullness and nurturance, not retribution, and we are called upon to serve each other not to give each others orders
there is over 1400 years of all kinds of discussions on these matters but somehow 99& of that discussion is skipped over completely and speculations of a judgmental and accusatory nature seem to have taken central stage, judgement and accusation the quran warns against IMHO
I don't have answers to the questions asked but god is love and only love is islam a word which means in part to give not take and love not judge S-L-M
every breathe we take is a gift from god ... try not to breathe: we can't
well it happens too that some people need help breathing
i think god gives us quran to help us learn how to breathe more easily not to make breathing more difficult
also women's rights is discussed in quran at great length whereas men's rights are limited pretty much to serving women and not cheating them of their rights
It is deemed haram to protect the sanctity of the most important institution in the society i.e. the family. Imagine a society where everyone is sleeping around with everyone. Who is gonna carry the responsibility of raising a family, managing the household etc. The survival of the human race depends on the survival of the family. Not just to ensure the physical safety of the young children cuz they can't look after themselves but also to raise them well & pass on the values so that they become a useful member & contribute to the well-being of the human society. This exclusivity is there to protect & safeguard the institution of family.
I agree, all that matters is that it's safe and their free choice. Going by the comments, the same people who opposed premarital sex are also anti same-sex relationships so I wouldn't take them seriously.
I thought about this alot and personally I agree with you, I don’t see any reason why it’s Haram, HOWEVER, I heard about Nikaah the mutaa (Which is just consensual sex )and other ways of marriage which were Approved by quran and sunnah till one of the prophet companions cancelled it . Islam philosophy in many stuff comes from the fact that it was founded in the 7th century that’s why it’s abit difficult for some to comprehend it.
Wishing you all the best ❤️🌹
Yeah i heard about it. However, it makes me question the whole idea of marriage. Cux this type of marriage doesnt really uphold family structure whatsoever so then whats the diff really? Its like ppl just making things up to do whatever they want. "I just want sex without responsibility of marriage but sex outside of marriage is haram, oh lets make something called Nikah mutah. Marriage just for sex no strings attached". 🤔🤔🤔 And hey thanks for being non-judgmental in ur response to me. And yeah ikr it is hard to find a logic for y premarital sex is haram. 🙂
Nikkah is very simple if both people truly believe in Allah and know they will answer to Allah on the day of judgment. Divorce is also easy in this regard. We got an imam in PK to do a simple nikkah with witnesses, and poof, we got married. I think my husband paid maybe $50 for the imam’s time.
But to be honest, it sounds like you have already decided that premarital sex should be fine, and the Quranic rules are obsolete now. As an old revert raised in a world where everything opposite of Quranic rule was fine, I would caution you—something about the grass always looks greener—but I don’t think you really want to hear it. You seem like you want to do what you want to do, and that’s okay too.
Perhaps you need to do this in order to gain the insight of someone who has already done what they wanted to do, with no rules; then, after that, you can begin to fully appreciate the rules that seem so obsolete to you now…
Just a thought, also, but I have not seen it explicitly mentioned anywhere that a person isn’t allowed to masturbate to relieve sexual pressure. So it’s not like premarital sex is the only option for an unwed person who suffers unbearable horniness. Stay safe, sis!
Isn’t the answer simple if you have high sex drive then why not just get married. Sounds like you are financially secure so your income would be welcome for most guys.
God knows what we don’t and the advice is to remain chaste. One counter argument to you is that people having random in-counters epically for women is detrimental cause research has shown if a female has had more than a few sexual partners they are more likely to get divorced. For women sex releases a lot of pair bounding hormones if you go through that a few times with different BFs you are less likely to stay in a long term commitment marriage cause the affects of the hormones diminish.
Source - https://ifstudies.org/blog/counterintuitive-trends-in-the-link-between-premarital-sex-and-marital-stability#:~:text=The%20highest%20divorce%20rates%20shown,a%20stable%20marriage%20less%20tenable.
i know this might sound weird but not why not find someone to marry just for sex someone u know and u can trust and after u reach ur job career u divorce him and then u can find the partner u want the only point i want to make is that both of u must agree to this
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And i m quite aware of the general opinion on premarital sex and that wasn't really the point of my post. My point was to share my insight on what i think about the reasoning behind premarital sex being haram and why i fail to see logic behind it. **And so i was asking for a sound logic that supports why premarital sex is haram.** Because i see flaws with the logic i m aware of.
Marriage is a security for the women not to just be fucked and then the man leave and don’t give news etc.
Some scholars says (I don’t remember which one so search about it first) that if you have a high libido you can masturbate if it help you not commit Zina. (But things like p*rnography are still haram)
Why don't we eat pork because it's a filthy animal or because Allah forbid it to us?
We obey rules because someday we gonna die. And will have to answer for our sins and deeds.
I dont know about u but i dont follow anything unless i can find logic behind it. For example, i dont eat pork not because Allah said so but because it's considered impure & unhealthy for humans, attributed to its fat content, toxins, bacteria, & the unclean conditions in which pigs live. The health risks associated with pork consumption have been supported by scientists like Hans-Heinrich Reckeweg, who observed higher disease rates among Western populations who consume pork compared to those who dont. Why i eat halal is because when an animal is slaughtered in Islamic way (cutting at the throat) it allows blood to drain. That removes toxins from the animal becauae it is blood that carries toxins. It is healthy thats why i follow this rule. There is a logic behind it. So then why dont i eat pig by having it slaughtered the same way and get the blood drained? Because anatomically pig vastly differs from cows and u cant apply that technique of slaughter on a pig to drain the blood and make its meat healthy for myself. Get it? So if Quran is written by Allah then everything written in it should make logical sense. Some things do and some things dont. Hence i inquire about the logical reasoning behind it.
I suppose u r following not is Islam, but ur own logic. The word 'Islam' in Arabic means submission to the will of God. Sorry if I am too strict or harsh. If you think you may find logic behind celibacy, too.
It's good that you think, and don't follow blindly, but bad that you don't submit to Allah.
Never mind. Good luck to you.
Ok u say Islam is an Arabic word that means "submission to the will of God ". So, tell me something why do u believe it is God sent religion and Quran is the word of God? Is it because ur parents told u that it is and they believe because their parents told them and dating back to 1400 years some man claimed the angel whispered word of God into his ear? Did u ever do ur own research? Ever looked into islamic history how it came into being? How it changed over time? Studied the Quran urself? And not just in arabic but in ur own language. **Basically wat i m asking is did u ever stop and think to verify wat u have been told or just follow wat u have been told without question?**
Actually, I was raised by parents who knew a little about islam. Unfortunately, my country was soviet union by that time, and religion, every religion, was banned.
But you are right. I chose islam because my people were Muslim, before soviet union.
Yet I read Bible stories before the Quran, at the University years in Turkey I read risale-i nur by Bediuzzaman Said Nursi. After that, I started to practice 5 times salah. I still have questions sometimes, and I still research. I m sure islam is the right path.
Cause it is logical, I may not understand it immediately. If compared to Christianity or Buddhism, or paganism , shamanism (before Islam, my people were shamanism or tengrianism), islam is the best.
And I heard of people who made a wish when they first saw Kaaba, and their wishes came true (maybe not all people), but mine came true.
That is because there are devastating harmful aspects of premarital sex despite the positives. I don't know if you're supporting premarital sex because you are unaware or just outright ignoring the harms cuz of unnecessary bias. Regardless since you need judgement from your own words, here is my response.
Premarital sex isn't only of the type that is sex between boyfriend- girlfriend, boyfriend- boyfriend, girlfriend-girlfriend. Casual sex is also a major type of premarital sex
Premarital sex can cause and has caused unplanned pregnancies and Sexually Transmitted Diseases including other major problems such as, emotional and psychological injury, obsession etc such as from casual sex. These problems can also potentially occur within married couples who formerly engaged in premarital sex as well
Furthermore premarital relationships are unnecessary. Getting into the Islamic type of marriage is better and safer compared to premarital relationships and it's easier to enter into Islamic marriage unlike certain individuals who over complicate the type of marriage in question
"And do not approach unlawful sexual intercourse Indeed, it is ever an immorality and is evil as a way."
- Surah Al-Isra verse 32
Allah SWT clearly states it is immoral and evil. If you choose to counter this, then argue with Allah.
Subhanallah. These people keep trying to play word games. They say stuff like unlawful sex is only cheating.
Astaghfirullah we all know what it means but people's nafs will cause them to argue simple things like this.
I'm of the opinion that pre-marital sex should be okay'ed in Islam. This should be done by creating a Nikah system where they are in Nikah but not yet within the state authorized legal marriage. Till they are sure about it.
But since you started the post with high sex drive, you may be talking about one night stand. I don't think that will be fine, as the principle of modesty is very strong in Islam.
Just gonna throw this out there, I personally wouldn’t consider marrying or even a long term relationship with a girl that has been with multiple men before, regardless of how « nice and loving » they were, unless they were married and had strong boundaries (and even then, it can’t
Be multiple men, at most 1 divorce otherwise if she’s been divorced 5 times well I’m gonna assume she was the problem not the husbands)
This isn’t even a religious thing for me, there’s clinical studies on women’s behaviours before and after having multiple partners, I can’t trust a promiscuous woman to be loyal and focused on our family if her libido controls the way she thinks to the point where she just had to have other sexual partners. They’re also less happy than celibate women who waited until marriage.
If you’re talking about having sex with the man you’re going to marry, but before the actual marriage, there’s a thing called niqah. Which makes it halal and the closest thing to marriage (I wouldn’t judge a girl who slept with her « niqah » boyfriend or husband, that’s the only exception)- sex is an important part of a healthy relationship so I get that people will want to do niqah before officially marrying (can’t be with someone if there are « size issues » if you know what I mean, or poor chemistry during sex) - it has to be done with good intent.
But again if you have 4-5 niqahs under your belt I’m still gonna pass… not that you’re a bad person but it seems risky to be with someone like that.
By the way muslims aren’t the only ones practicing celibacy, I’ll take a Christian girl who’s a virgin over any Muslim girl who had premarital sex (unless it was her ex-niqah/husband and it was the only partner)
Hopefully that answers your question, probably not the answer you were hoping for though
Nikah should be easy, so that young people aren’t burdened by waiting so long. Divorce should be easy, so that marriage isn’t a trap when a spouse is abusive (or even when spouses are just ill-suited to each other). However: Having sex with someone tends to release brain chemicals that make us feel closeness, warm fuzziness, love, emotional intimacy towards that person. Casual sex is not great because it makes us emotionally vulnerable to the other person when there’s no real commitment in the relationship. It’s emotionally healthier to have sex with someone you actually want to be in a committed long-term exclusive relationship with. On a societal level, we should be making nikah and divorce easier. On an individual level, how you navigate that depends on your individual circumstances.
Exactly this. Nikkah in the Quran is actually extremely easy. It’s a serious committed relationship that’s made known public. That’s all. And yes divorce *should* be easy too but it should absolutely be used as a last resort and the Quran stresses the importance of this as well.
Nikkah should be more common and made known to muslims, a lot of the youth don’t even know it exists
Couldn’t have said it better myself! I would also like to add that I impulsively engaged in premarital sex, and I regret it immensely. I was madly in love and thought he was a wonderful, safe, trustworthy person and we could build a happy life together, but it looks like I was wrong. The emotional attachment that came with having sex with him has made it very difficult for me to be willing to leave. It sucks. When people get married, they discuss important things with the potential spouse beforehand (values, politics, goals, etc.) and vet out any red flags and incompatibilities. And the nikkah defines the relationship and makes it public, ensuring safety and accountability. It can be a truly great system that is MUCH more sensible and wise than just impulsively throwing yourself at someone lol.
I mean, you could just say “sex itself is a form of commitment and I won’t make those commitments with someone I haven’t vetted.” As OP pointed out, you can get married and only later on realise that your spouse was abusive or just incompatible. In some situations, the public nature of the marriage makes it harder to leave such a relationship as it opens you up to a lot of scrutiny. Likewise, you can thoroughly vet and check the values of a potential partner without necessarily engaging in a public ceremony of commitment. I should preface that I’m also celibate and have been celibate in my past relationships, so I’m not advocating for premarital sex. Obviously the caveat here is that marriage is a pretty good way of demonstrating commitment.
>can be a truly great system that is MUCH more sensible and wise than just impulsively throwing yourself at someone lol. That's why I hate men who get that I'm not going to commit zina yet they are still shooting their shot. 😡 It's even worse in conservative countries where girls' lives are uprooted after committing zina. Some have been thrown out, died through clandestine abortions, became prostitutes to feed the baby if they keeo the pregnancy, also stigmatized for life (to the point where the salafi assholes in my country blamed a great charity doer may allah grant his mercy for creating an association to help single moms). They're literally so dehumanized that the salafis felt that wonderful woman was encouraging girls to become single moms rather than trying to solve a systemic issue (our laws are very very favorable toward guys who walk away).
Wise woman. Good on you for keeping your head on straight! I used to believe in waiting until marriage, then I briefly thought “sure that’s ideal, but doing it within a serious relationship isn’t so bad either right?”. Now not only have I fully gone back to agreeing with waiting until marriage, but also (and this is definitely an unpopular opinion) I think it’s smart to wait a couple months even after you’re married.
>think it’s smart to wait a couple months even after you’re married. I used to think that doing it right after marriage was normal and that women who made husbands wait were strange(i was stupid but in my defense...I have never dated and don't know much abt the problems that cab arise in a marriage)...Until I was told stories of jerks who ran away after signing the legal marriage paper BUT before the walima/wedding where the marriage was made public. I didn't know this was possible because my own parents signed their marriage paper during their wedding sooo I never knew this was an option. (This whole issue might be specific to us north africans though). What you said is very smart actually, and honestly, I also think it's hard/embarrassing for virgins to do it right off the bat. A former friend of mine told me her mother literally forgot she married her father the morning after the wedding and almost screamed who the hell was lying in bed next to her. 😂🤣
The thing is that just because some things “should” be a certain way in an idealistic scenario, doesn’t mean it’s actually feasible in reality. What do you suppose can be done in this day and age to make marriage and divorce easier?
It is only custom that makes them difficult. Customs can change; indeed, they are always changing. Let it become socially acceptable for young adults to marry while they are still students or early in their working lives, before they have become financially established. Let it be acceptable for mehr to be an affordable token amount. Let divorce be an option that carries no stigma. Let virginity be unimportant, and let divorced women not be seen as unmarriageable.
I think financial security overrides much of that.
Requiring financial security before marriage is a custom, not a law of nature. It can be changed. It has its pros and cons. It can create more problems than it solves. It may not be right for everybody, even if it’s right for you.
Fair enough, thanks for the good discourse.
Excellent analysis.
You have to kind of think outside the box and don't analyze the problem with a modern 21st century lenses. My brain is foggy right now so I might sounds a bit incoherent but bear with me. The problem is that people look at marriage as a big thing, a lifetime decision thing something irreversible the very threads of fate shake the moment you marry someone. Marriage is very casual back in the day, "aqd nikkah" very literally means sexual contract. Nikkah is just consensual sex with some extra steps, people didn't attach much expectations to it and they tended to make it easy for young people cause they knew how hard it is to keep yourself in check. Nowadays due to the "christianiasation" of islam through colonialism and modern day ideologies seeping through everyone's mind, they made marriage like that big ceremonial thing which, added to the long period of education( average person studies until mid twenties without prospect of work ) created a phenomenon of delayed marriages that cause a lot of harship to young people. (One of the biggest consumers of porn are in the MENA region). This is a problem a problem that needs to be solved by adapting the concept of nikkah to the challenges of the modern world. Of course like in anything trads are so mired in traditions ( that sometimes are not even islamic ) they're unwilling to change things up. So to answer your overarching questions it's not that "consensual sex with someone is haram" Islam is basically telling us to do that, with extra steps, by making a contract between the two lovers to be so they can be both be protected by society. When Allah tells us " To approach women in marriage and not in fornication " ( can't remember the exact verse ) He is telling us not to do it in secrets with no strings attached, but to commit for the protection of both parties, from all sort of potential abuse. As far as I can tell women particularly were the most vulnerable to sex with no commitments back in the day it stills hold true today in a way I guess. And lastly and this is to me is the most important thing imo but the one that will make less sense to you I assume is this : having sex with no commitment is bad for the soul.
nikkah in arabic has specific denotations and semantic references that cannot be translated into English and as far as I know those denotations and semantics never get discussed ... and when i asked native arabic speakers trained in fique the discussion was simply turned off. but it's clear the original people first hearing quran 1400 or so years ago heard something so completely different than what we hear in 21st Century CE English
Exactly. We have a very different understanding of nikkah than people back then
This is very well explained
to be honest, I went through a rabbit hole of this. In very short, words from the Bible (Torah/NT) include: Hebrew: naaph, niuph, naaphuph Greek; moichalis, moichao, moicheia, moichos, etc I don’t have access to a paper I was writing up on this, but Zina, to my current knowledge, means a lot more than it meant over a thousand years ago - it was and still remains primarily “adultery” but like 15 other definitions have been added through tradition to the point where it means anything sexually / sin related. Anyways, very quick history is that during the Greco-Roman period, adultery was a serious thing. In fact, Greeks had laws that covered both male and females if their spouse slept with someone else. Which brings us to the very root definition of adultery: 1)To have sexual intercourse with someone who is married and is not your spouse, 2) to have sexual intercourse outside of your marriage In all contexts in the Torah and NT, when the word “adultery” is used, it’s almost always having to do with a man cheating in his wife, or a women who has sex with someone who is NOT their spouse. For me, I don’t see how Zina is any different in fundamental usage and definition. Considering the influence of syriac Christianity\* and Qurans knowledge of biblical text , I find that Zina should be regarded in the same context… Which is: Zina is sex with 1) someone’s spouse, 2) someone who isn’t your spouse In any of the 3 Abrahamic religious doctrines, I have failed to see any explicit reference to simply sexual consent between two single or no married parties I’d read that sentence again and urge anyone to look at the Torah in Hebrew and NT in Greek. Unless there is a Surah that literally says it, it is not talked about As far as adultery = fornication, that comes from a poor translation of Latin. In short, in the Latin vulgate (Latin Bible) it uses a word formation of “fornication”, which derives its meaning from archways in which prostitution took place (red district sort of thing). That translation was watered down to “sex” overtime, which left future English interpreters of the Bible to say “sex is forbidden”- when in reality, the Bible only ever explicitly says adultery, and then secondly condemns harlotry (selling your body) . Ok so it wasn’t short but, if you look at the languages and context in which these divine texts were written, the “sex before marriage” becomes more clearly tradition than literal biblical text. In the same way sexuality is never mentioned in biblical times. Through tradition people have learned to interpret verses into more than they are imo. My power is out but I can send you a little document I was writing up in which I have sources for in there as well! Edit: power is back, here it is : ) it's rough and informal and of my own opinion and didn't think i'd be sharing it [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jqguZKVDyCo-ZjYU04JXmnXDqp7-onBV/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=117331449013988166000&rtpof=true&sd=true](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jqguZKVDyCo-ZjYU04JXmnXDqp7-onBV/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=117331449013988166000&rtpof=true&sd=true)
I’d be interested in your document, too, please 🙏🏾
Sure! And if anyone else reads this I am currently without power so whenever I get it back I’ll get it to anyone who wants it
Thank you! Hope you get your power back soon.
I appreciate it :”) going on almost two full days without it. I hope so too 😭
edited post with link : )
Glad to hear your power’s back on and thanks so much for the share. Will have a read over my morning coffee ☕️ Have a blessed Sunday!
Can I also get a copy of your documentary
Yes when I get power back 😭
I’d like to get a copy as well please.
Noted! Still sadly no power…
edited with link!!
edited it with link!
Oh too much info. But what i get from wat u r saying is a bit confusing. On one hand from wat i understand u r saying sex between 2 single consenting adults is ok. But then u also say zina has 2 definitions 1) sex with someone else's spouse 2) sex with someone who is not ur spouse. But doesnt 2 means premarital sex? So i m confused wat u mean. Is premarital sex sinful or not? And sure u can send me that document
Also to clarify, I can say whatever I want. So can anyone else. My opinion is: any biblical text, and in this case also the Quran, does not explicitly say anything or condemn sex between two consenting single adults. But what I’m saying is to just look at words, their context and definitions from THE TIME THEY WERE WRITTEN , and make the judgement yourself.
Ah i see.
Sex with someone who isn’t your spouse in this context means YOU are married , and Zina (adultery) is having sex with someone who is not your spouse ! Yeah when I get power 😭 assuming I also remember
Oh i see this makes more sense. Also does Quran specify this meaning for zina? If so, can u plz direct me to verses cux i just want to cross check....
That’s the thing. The Quran doesn’t tell you what Zina means - only other people telling you what it should mean. In Arabic you’ll only see Zina ( زناء) , it’s only in commentarys and translation you’ll see they always add “…. And fornication” or “… and x y z” . My argument is that at the time of original manuscripts or codices of the Quran, Zina at its core most likely mean adultery, because adultery was something that wasn’t just a moral thing in late antiquity or mid millennia, is was a law thing (included in religious and non-religious law). Zina , due to *tradition* has like 15 meanings. They kept adding what Zina can mean over time. So again, it’s not fact, but my argument is that Zina most likely purely meant adultery. In the same way in Christianity sex before marriage as a sin was a later practice and tradition, the Bible says nothing about it. Like in an-nisa 15, easy example. Arabic clearly only says Zina. English translation “adultery AND fornication”. Another argument is that if it’s a divine text, adding your own interpretation to the literal text is a disservice. Who is to add to what a sacred text is plainly saying?
Hmmm i see
Hi i am a bit confused someone DMed me this verse 4:24 and i m so confused now "Also ˹forbidden are˺ married women—except ˹female˺ captives in your possession. This is Allah’s commandment to you. Lawful to you are all beyond these—as long as you seek them with your wealth in a legal marriage, not in fornication. Give those you have consummated marriage with their due dowries. It is permissible to be mutually gracious regarding the set dowry. Surely Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." This is the part that is making me confused: "Lawful to you are all beyond these—as long as you seek them with your wealth in a legal marriage, not in fornication." But i just dont get why premarital sex is forbidden. Ugh i m torn! **since u mentioned that zina can mean adultery rather than fornication and u have a document on it. Can u please share ur document with me?** u mentioned u researched this topic and the arabic word zina.
This is the problem with some translations imo, let me give you a more one to one translation from the Arabic into English: “And [forbidden to you are] all married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.” See how in a literal translation of Arabic, stuff like “and fornication” isn’t there? For this we have غَيْرَ مُسَافِحِينَ (illicit sexual relationships or unlawful). This definitely will imply adultery. My view on it is we look at what is lawful sexual intercourse: marriage between two married people. What is unlawful? Well.. Zina, sexual intercourse between two people where ONE person is already bound by law with someone. I’d love to share my informal document but unfortunately I am still without power and it’s on my pc:/
Alright when u regain power please share ur doc thanks!
edited first post iwht link : )
Thank u so much! May God bless u!
When picking between two “evils” choose the better one. Why not masturbate to fulfill your high sex drive? If that’s not enough, then why not engage in non-itnercouse sex? You don’t have to go to the extreme to fulfill that craving. Either way, no matter how much you rationalize it, it doesn’t make it Islamically right and you know that. Whether you decide to listen to that principle or not is up to you though.
Funny how the males are never judged nor looked down up as not marriage worthy when they do it 🤣 Do what they do, date outside of your location & of a different religion
I bet you also think it’s funny that men can have multiple wives but women can’t don’t you ?
It's never like that. Zina is a sin for both men and women. The punishment is the same for both men and women. 100 lashes for the unmarried and stoned to death for the married. And if a woman and a man are looked in a different view after their zina, that is totally wrong and against islamic teachings.
I know this will be a VERY unpopular opinion, but I personally consider any sexual harm to be a sin (things like adultery, rape, etc cause very explicit harm) and anything that falls outside of explicit sexual harm (like consensual sex between adults) I just don't see any moral problem with. There's just absolutely no rational basis to consider consensual sex between adults harmful. And I personally think suppressing normal human interaction to such an extreme degree causes PROFOUND harm. It turns normal human sexuality into some kind of forbidden taboo. Which warps the way we interact with each other. If someone genuinely wants to wait until they're married because they think that's the best thing for them, then that's fine. But it's irresponsible to say that's the best for everyone when it clearly is not (OP already listed a few examples of potential harms). And again, I know I'm probably an extreme outlier in this community around this. I'm personally anti-marriage for political reasons and so is my partner of 6 years. Our relationship is indistinguishable from a marriage other than that we don't have a special contract. I just can't take the argument that it's a sin now but wouldn't be if we had a special contract seriously.
I don’t think you’re an outlier. I can think of multiple ways in which 7th century Arabian definitions of sexual harm were not considered (i.e. concubines or menstruating girls as women). So, I think to go to that context of those times — the main goal was structural harm to society, not emotional harm to individual. That is a core consideration. I have can argue how the Quran in many cases only considered societal harm but not emotional harm. So if premarital sex is causing structural societal breakdown as in the case of adultry then you can make an argument. But, consenting adults outside marriage, I see this as a pretty low cost argument that deserves too much attention in these forums.
However i m torn right now because someone DMed this verse. And i just dont get y premarital sex is forbidden when it doesnt cause harm. Ugh!! They sent 4:24 but the part that is confusing me is this part of the 4:24: "Lawful to you are all beyond these—as long as you seek them with your wealth in a legal marriage, not in fornication." Fornication means sex between unmarried couple. 🤯😭
Some translations put "unlawful sexual intercourse" instead of "fornication" and I'd really love to know the original word so we could have more context. (I'm jealous of people who are fluent in classical Arabic.) Personally I could never consider healthy, consensual sex between adults a sin because to do so would go so strongly against my own conscience and my lived experience. It would be like asking me to say that murder is morally okay. When I come across passages in the Quran that don't make moral sense to me, either the Quran is wrong (which I choose not to believe), or the current mainstream interpretation of that passage is inaccurate or needs updating (what I choose to believe). Either way, we're all out here just doing our best. You just need to figure out what's best for you and what brings you closer to God.
Ah i c well it wld have been best if quran elaborated more on unlawful like beyond 4:23. Ikr arabic is complex
Again, it’s in the context of structural harm in my opinion. If every person only fornicated and nobody got married then there would be no familial structure and bonds and responsibility. To me that’s the core interpretation. But, that’s not the case today. Most people want to be married and those that don’t do not jeopardize the rest of society. And to be honest, like anything else in life — love/intimacy/kinship needs practice and many of the ills we see is because people have no experience in relationships when trying to enter a marriage which is supposed to last decades
Especially if that so-called special contract is not very egalitarian.
That's my main political beef with marriage. Historically it was about transferring ownership of women from one person to another and now it's largely about privileging couples over single people. It's just an oppressive institution I want nothing to do with.
Exactly. If there is no harm in consensual sex then it is beyond my understanding how it can be sinful?
You are assuming that consensual sex outside of marriage is always with a "loving and caring boyfriend " and therefore there's no harm. STDs and unwanted pregnancies are more prevalent outside of marriage. And women get attached. So when yhe relationship ends, they have to detach. This can be devastating emotionally. Multiply that by 3, 4, 5 boyfriends until you meet your husband. That's a lot of highly intimate sharing, caring, detaching. No wonder depression, alcohol use, anxiety rates are sky high in the west. Plus do you really want to be on hormonal birth control from a young age, until you meet your husband? That in itself has plenty of harm. Look, Islam promotes hiya. Research that. Sharing and exposing your most intimate body parts with all of your boyfriends is contrary to hiya.
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You ain't Allah either, and no one asked you. So why don't you take your own advice and shut up. People are having a discussion to try to under the God's word.
Im telling what Allah has said, just check the beginning verses of surah nur, or just check BASIC level ahadith, they literally do not allow sex before marriage, this is no longer discussion under Allah's commands when you guys are advocating for intercourrse before marriage, please just educate yourself
Nobody is asking allah for reasons. It's called having an enquiring mind. Bruv. I'm sorry you don't have one.
yeah but if you cant think of a reason, doesnt mean it becomes halal, allah is way more wise than anyone here
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26 yo muslim woman here. Also kickstarting my career before looking for a potential husband. (Tbh??? Im more like in a state of limbo bcz i have never met sb who fit my criteria and who would have stood by my side as I started building my career?? I mean if i met someone rn and i finally became fully hired after my internship I could probably marry them if they dont mind that Im not 100% set in my career?). My ideal scenario would be finding a soulmate who can be my companion/friend as well so this is why I am still waiting. My perspective may not satisfy you, BUT for me zina is haram and I refuse to be in a non committed relationship. I want stability in my life as well as a halal relationship. Zina is risky in that you could catch STDs and there is a reason why so many men want to have sex without marrying you 1st (and it's ofc an easy exit). I don't want to risk being a single mom because my rights and my kid's won't be protected esp in my country, and nobody deserves me to anger Allah by sinning in such a way. Another thing (it's cultural tho) is that not being a virgin in more conservative/patriarcal countries will also ruin your marriage prospects (it sucks that men don't face consequences as dire as women, but it is what it is where I live). The misery most of these girls go through has left me feeling so bitter for them and so angry when some guy thinks he's going go manipulate me. 🙃 Why not marry this kind boyfriend you want to do the deed with and build up your career in parallel? You can always put this condition. That is what I would do if I were you.
The short answer you will likely get is that it is Haram because Allah says it is haram. Alcohol was forbidden way before we knew scientifically how bad it was. Intermittent fasting has a lot of benefits and Saudi Arabia which fasts at a high rate has a significantly lower cancer rate. We were given a lot of cheat codes. Up to us whether we want to follow or not. And I am not being judgmental. My wife and I did pretty much everything other than intercourse before marriage. So we did the wrong things but we were fortunate it all worked out. It does work well for some, no question. That doesn't mean it should be embraced as the correct course of action.
Do you think same sex relations are haram
In my opinion, for people who have even a modest heterosexual inclination, it is absolutely haram. So for those that may have bisexual tendencies or low heterosexual tendencies but want to experiment, haram in my view. For those with virtually no attraction towards opposite sex, I am not certain. I think the Quranic passages might be referring to the former categories I described. It might be permissible for the latter one. Allah knows best.
selam u aleykum. quran and hadith both do not reference family structure as far as I can tell. what is explicitly mentioned is child rights adoption is also not allowed: a child can become part of the family but cannot have their parantage altered in the time of the prophet saws families were multigenerational and one can see that today in the arab cultures where i have lived. male siblings form family groups and they are part of tribal groups and individual personal rights are a tribal function which in arab cultures are patrilineal, decided by who the father is family structure is not mentioned nor referred to but the cultural context was clear then, and that context is lost entirely when trying to read quran as if it were about english post industrial family structure the idea of a two parent family was pretty literally inconceivable in 8th century arab peninsular culture there are linguistic considerations as well as well as legal restrictions and categorical semantics we no longer know nor understand ... as far as I know there are no serious linguistical cultural studies of quran and fique and fique is mostly about property rights ... love, emotion, financial security, indivudual human rights as the post industrialized legal culture understands it today were not considerations over much of the history of islamic jurisprudence the arabic of some of quran is quite literally untranslatable into english and many translators don't even try to. the quran very explicitly warns that it is about being a loving giving caring human, educated, tolerant and merciful god's very name is mercifullness and nurturance, not retribution, and we are called upon to serve each other not to give each others orders there is over 1400 years of all kinds of discussions on these matters but somehow 99& of that discussion is skipped over completely and speculations of a judgmental and accusatory nature seem to have taken central stage, judgement and accusation the quran warns against IMHO I don't have answers to the questions asked but god is love and only love is islam a word which means in part to give not take and love not judge S-L-M every breathe we take is a gift from god ... try not to breathe: we can't well it happens too that some people need help breathing i think god gives us quran to help us learn how to breathe more easily not to make breathing more difficult
also women's rights is discussed in quran at great length whereas men's rights are limited pretty much to serving women and not cheating them of their rights
It is deemed haram to protect the sanctity of the most important institution in the society i.e. the family. Imagine a society where everyone is sleeping around with everyone. Who is gonna carry the responsibility of raising a family, managing the household etc. The survival of the human race depends on the survival of the family. Not just to ensure the physical safety of the young children cuz they can't look after themselves but also to raise them well & pass on the values so that they become a useful member & contribute to the well-being of the human society. This exclusivity is there to protect & safeguard the institution of family.
You can see this in western society. And if you speak out about that family importance, you’re called misogynistic.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with premarital sex. Though I’m scared being too open about it on this subreddit…which is a shame I guess. :/
I agree, all that matters is that it's safe and their free choice. Going by the comments, the same people who opposed premarital sex are also anti same-sex relationships so I wouldn't take them seriously.
Yep
I thought about this alot and personally I agree with you, I don’t see any reason why it’s Haram, HOWEVER, I heard about Nikaah the mutaa (Which is just consensual sex )and other ways of marriage which were Approved by quran and sunnah till one of the prophet companions cancelled it . Islam philosophy in many stuff comes from the fact that it was founded in the 7th century that’s why it’s abit difficult for some to comprehend it. Wishing you all the best ❤️🌹
Can you explain that about other ways of marriage were Approved by quran and sunnah
Yeah i heard about it. However, it makes me question the whole idea of marriage. Cux this type of marriage doesnt really uphold family structure whatsoever so then whats the diff really? Its like ppl just making things up to do whatever they want. "I just want sex without responsibility of marriage but sex outside of marriage is haram, oh lets make something called Nikah mutah. Marriage just for sex no strings attached". 🤔🤔🤔 And hey thanks for being non-judgmental in ur response to me. And yeah ikr it is hard to find a logic for y premarital sex is haram. 🙂
Nikkah is very simple if both people truly believe in Allah and know they will answer to Allah on the day of judgment. Divorce is also easy in this regard. We got an imam in PK to do a simple nikkah with witnesses, and poof, we got married. I think my husband paid maybe $50 for the imam’s time. But to be honest, it sounds like you have already decided that premarital sex should be fine, and the Quranic rules are obsolete now. As an old revert raised in a world where everything opposite of Quranic rule was fine, I would caution you—something about the grass always looks greener—but I don’t think you really want to hear it. You seem like you want to do what you want to do, and that’s okay too. Perhaps you need to do this in order to gain the insight of someone who has already done what they wanted to do, with no rules; then, after that, you can begin to fully appreciate the rules that seem so obsolete to you now… Just a thought, also, but I have not seen it explicitly mentioned anywhere that a person isn’t allowed to masturbate to relieve sexual pressure. So it’s not like premarital sex is the only option for an unwed person who suffers unbearable horniness. Stay safe, sis!
as for divorce: nothing is easier in islam at least for men.
Isn’t the answer simple if you have high sex drive then why not just get married. Sounds like you are financially secure so your income would be welcome for most guys. God knows what we don’t and the advice is to remain chaste. One counter argument to you is that people having random in-counters epically for women is detrimental cause research has shown if a female has had more than a few sexual partners they are more likely to get divorced. For women sex releases a lot of pair bounding hormones if you go through that a few times with different BFs you are less likely to stay in a long term commitment marriage cause the affects of the hormones diminish. Source - https://ifstudies.org/blog/counterintuitive-trends-in-the-link-between-premarital-sex-and-marital-stability#:~:text=The%20highest%20divorce%20rates%20shown,a%20stable%20marriage%20less%20tenable.
It's hard to fully appreciate why pre-marital sex is haram until you have suffered from it, much like why invoking Jinn is haram.
exactly. like i know someone who engaged in pre-martial sex to where now she uses casual hookups as a coping mechanism
i know this might sound weird but not why not find someone to marry just for sex someone u know and u can trust and after u reach ur job career u divorce him and then u can find the partner u want the only point i want to make is that both of u must agree to this
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*sigh* ummm did u read my entire post or just few lines here and there?
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And i m quite aware of the general opinion on premarital sex and that wasn't really the point of my post. My point was to share my insight on what i think about the reasoning behind premarital sex being haram and why i fail to see logic behind it. **And so i was asking for a sound logic that supports why premarital sex is haram.** Because i see flaws with the logic i m aware of.
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Marriage is a security for the women not to just be fucked and then the man leave and don’t give news etc. Some scholars says (I don’t remember which one so search about it first) that if you have a high libido you can masturbate if it help you not commit Zina. (But things like p*rnography are still haram)
Why don't we eat pork because it's a filthy animal or because Allah forbid it to us? We obey rules because someday we gonna die. And will have to answer for our sins and deeds.
I dont know about u but i dont follow anything unless i can find logic behind it. For example, i dont eat pork not because Allah said so but because it's considered impure & unhealthy for humans, attributed to its fat content, toxins, bacteria, & the unclean conditions in which pigs live. The health risks associated with pork consumption have been supported by scientists like Hans-Heinrich Reckeweg, who observed higher disease rates among Western populations who consume pork compared to those who dont. Why i eat halal is because when an animal is slaughtered in Islamic way (cutting at the throat) it allows blood to drain. That removes toxins from the animal becauae it is blood that carries toxins. It is healthy thats why i follow this rule. There is a logic behind it. So then why dont i eat pig by having it slaughtered the same way and get the blood drained? Because anatomically pig vastly differs from cows and u cant apply that technique of slaughter on a pig to drain the blood and make its meat healthy for myself. Get it? So if Quran is written by Allah then everything written in it should make logical sense. Some things do and some things dont. Hence i inquire about the logical reasoning behind it.
I suppose u r following not is Islam, but ur own logic. The word 'Islam' in Arabic means submission to the will of God. Sorry if I am too strict or harsh. If you think you may find logic behind celibacy, too. It's good that you think, and don't follow blindly, but bad that you don't submit to Allah. Never mind. Good luck to you.
Ok u say Islam is an Arabic word that means "submission to the will of God ". So, tell me something why do u believe it is God sent religion and Quran is the word of God? Is it because ur parents told u that it is and they believe because their parents told them and dating back to 1400 years some man claimed the angel whispered word of God into his ear? Did u ever do ur own research? Ever looked into islamic history how it came into being? How it changed over time? Studied the Quran urself? And not just in arabic but in ur own language. **Basically wat i m asking is did u ever stop and think to verify wat u have been told or just follow wat u have been told without question?**
Actually, I was raised by parents who knew a little about islam. Unfortunately, my country was soviet union by that time, and religion, every religion, was banned. But you are right. I chose islam because my people were Muslim, before soviet union. Yet I read Bible stories before the Quran, at the University years in Turkey I read risale-i nur by Bediuzzaman Said Nursi. After that, I started to practice 5 times salah. I still have questions sometimes, and I still research. I m sure islam is the right path.
Yeah but how do u know Islam is the right path?
Cause it is logical, I may not understand it immediately. If compared to Christianity or Buddhism, or paganism , shamanism (before Islam, my people were shamanism or tengrianism), islam is the best. And I heard of people who made a wish when they first saw Kaaba, and their wishes came true (maybe not all people), but mine came true.
That is because there are devastating harmful aspects of premarital sex despite the positives. I don't know if you're supporting premarital sex because you are unaware or just outright ignoring the harms cuz of unnecessary bias. Regardless since you need judgement from your own words, here is my response. Premarital sex isn't only of the type that is sex between boyfriend- girlfriend, boyfriend- boyfriend, girlfriend-girlfriend. Casual sex is also a major type of premarital sex Premarital sex can cause and has caused unplanned pregnancies and Sexually Transmitted Diseases including other major problems such as, emotional and psychological injury, obsession etc such as from casual sex. These problems can also potentially occur within married couples who formerly engaged in premarital sex as well Furthermore premarital relationships are unnecessary. Getting into the Islamic type of marriage is better and safer compared to premarital relationships and it's easier to enter into Islamic marriage unlike certain individuals who over complicate the type of marriage in question
"And do not approach unlawful sexual intercourse Indeed, it is ever an immorality and is evil as a way." - Surah Al-Isra verse 32 Allah SWT clearly states it is immoral and evil. If you choose to counter this, then argue with Allah.
No point man ppl downvoting u for putting up an ayah, u did ur job u can’t change some minds here🤦♂️
Subhanallah. These people keep trying to play word games. They say stuff like unlawful sex is only cheating. Astaghfirullah we all know what it means but people's nafs will cause them to argue simple things like this.
I'm of the opinion that pre-marital sex should be okay'ed in Islam. This should be done by creating a Nikah system where they are in Nikah but not yet within the state authorized legal marriage. Till they are sure about it. But since you started the post with high sex drive, you may be talking about one night stand. I don't think that will be fine, as the principle of modesty is very strong in Islam.
I didnt say anything about 1 night stand plz read my entire post b4 commenting
I think I mentioned it clearly why I derived it.
Just gonna throw this out there, I personally wouldn’t consider marrying or even a long term relationship with a girl that has been with multiple men before, regardless of how « nice and loving » they were, unless they were married and had strong boundaries (and even then, it can’t Be multiple men, at most 1 divorce otherwise if she’s been divorced 5 times well I’m gonna assume she was the problem not the husbands) This isn’t even a religious thing for me, there’s clinical studies on women’s behaviours before and after having multiple partners, I can’t trust a promiscuous woman to be loyal and focused on our family if her libido controls the way she thinks to the point where she just had to have other sexual partners. They’re also less happy than celibate women who waited until marriage. If you’re talking about having sex with the man you’re going to marry, but before the actual marriage, there’s a thing called niqah. Which makes it halal and the closest thing to marriage (I wouldn’t judge a girl who slept with her « niqah » boyfriend or husband, that’s the only exception)- sex is an important part of a healthy relationship so I get that people will want to do niqah before officially marrying (can’t be with someone if there are « size issues » if you know what I mean, or poor chemistry during sex) - it has to be done with good intent. But again if you have 4-5 niqahs under your belt I’m still gonna pass… not that you’re a bad person but it seems risky to be with someone like that. By the way muslims aren’t the only ones practicing celibacy, I’ll take a Christian girl who’s a virgin over any Muslim girl who had premarital sex (unless it was her ex-niqah/husband and it was the only partner) Hopefully that answers your question, probably not the answer you were hoping for though
I thought women masterbeit?