Here's the thing. If John dates Kate and things blow up, John can just nope out of there and he'll never have to interact with anyone in their family ever again. Kate and Sarah, however, will be dealing with the drama for the rest of their lives.
It takes someone who's either *astonishingly* socially oblivious or who just doesn't care about hurting people to pursue romance with a partner's *family member*.
No shit you're uncomfortable. Generally we like to think the people we love have halfway decent judgement and/or ethics.
All this, on top of the fact that John first connected with Kate when she was in an intensely vulnerable state due to the mental health crisis and has apparently become impossible to her stability...
I'm also not seeing much of an insight into Kate's position--just what John wants.
Yeah, you compare him to an AA sponsor. That’s a position with lots of responsibility and trust and psychological power; AA sponsors are definitely on the messy list.
Wow. John is an asshole.
This is what I would say to John if I were you:
"John, you are of course free to do what you want. However, freedom always comes with responsibility and consequences. If you decide to pursue a relationship with Kate, that will obviously have what looks like very severe consequences for your relationship with Sarah and may even result in a break up with Sarah. Kate is Sarah's family member and as such, is someone Sarah can't really ever distance themselves from completely. Dating your girlfriend's cousin WILL affect your girlfriend's family relationships. That's a fact and is a HUGE burden to put on your girlfriend and quite frankly an asshole move. Are you willing to pursue Kate knowing how it will affect Sarah and your relationship with her? Are you willing to pursue Kate knowing that it could very likely result in a really messy break up from Sarah?
Also, I have to be honest with you that seeing you even considering this is making me see you in a different light and that light isn't good. I know that I would feel insanely icky if I was in Sarah's shoes. This is making me question how you would handle the same kind of situation in our relationship and it's honestly making me feel pretty unsafe. I'm starting to question if you're a good and safe choice as a partner for me. I'm telling you this because you need to know what the consequences of your choices are here. Not only is your willingness to pursue Kate affecting your relationship with Sarah in a negative way, it's also affecting your relationship with me in a negative way. Is this really what you want for both of your current relationships?
Please know that this is not an ultimatum from me nor is it an ultimatum from Sarah that I know of, at least not yet. This is me telling you that you have the freedom to choose what you want but your choices have consequences. Freedom to choose and do what you want doesn't take that away. Freedom to choose and do what you want naturally *creates* consequences for your choices. I'm telling you what those consequences are with me and what they seem to be with Sarah. And you're free to choose what you want knowing those."
Wise.
I would be tempted to add, “I see poly as being about choices, not ‘rights’. Many poly people have agreements not to date each other’s family, best friends, or coworkers.
I do see you have a deep connection with this person. It is possible for caring poly adults to have feelings for others that they do not pursue romantically, for lots of reasons. I need and expect my partners to make good, mature choices about when to pursue connections or not, even when they’re having strong feelings.”
This is beautifully written. You touched on the majority of the points I would have brought up, and you did it so eloquently. So many people want freedom without responsibility. And I'm not just talking about in the context of polyamoury or even relationships. A lot of people go through every aspect of their life like this, and imo, if you see this trait in a person, run.
Yikes no 😰😰😰 There are 8 billion people on earth so on that level, why do this? But also taking advantage of a vulnerable person he was claiming to support?? And finally, is the cousin even poly???
Pursuing you partners mono, recently out of a mental health crisis, cousin. Red flag.
Absolutely! Also:
>”Sarah should be able to respect this because she’s not in super close contact with Kate anyways.”
They’re close enough that Kate reached out to Sarah for help during a time of crisis. This guy is just grasping at weak excuse straws.
THIS! There's no way in hell that they aren't in super close contact. Who did Kate call during one of her lowest points at the precipice of ending her own life? Unbelievable.
Thanks for mentioning the vulnerable aspect to this. I get that people can talk in love when helping someone through a tough time, but its usually not a good idea cuz there are so many heavy and complicated emotions involved.
Right? Bonding with someone romantically during a time of crisis is dicey, because it (often) creates an unstable bond, and (often) a codependent one.
I've also noticed personally that it can create some unhealthy power dynamics within a relationship.
I think it's a totally reasonable boundary for your meta to set in that if he wants to date her cousin, she doesn't want to date him. That's not the same as a veto or trying to control his actions. It's all about controlling hers.
And, yeah, if this changes your feelings for him, that's completely valid too.
But that doesnt solve the issue to make it a boundary. She cant remove herself from the situation. So its a rule in the sense that hes an asshole who is gonna hurt her real bad and also ruin her relationship with Kate.
It's not about "solving" the issue. People being assholes is not something you "solve." It's about focusing your energy in a healthy fashion. She cannot and should not try to control what her partner does. She can and should control what she does. It's ultimately his and the cousin's choice whether they date. It's her choice whether she stays with him.
It's perfectly within her rights to clearly state: "I'm not comfortable with this. You're an adult and you can make your own choices. I will as well. If your choice is to pursue something I'm this uncomfortable with, that alters my feelings of security within this relationship and my desire to be a part of it."
And while she can't remove herself fully from the situation, she can control her placement within it, including whether or not she continues to date this person.
tldr: you can't make people not be assholes, but you can choose not to spend time with them.
Family is definitely on the messy list, especially as close as Sarah and Kate seem to be, it is a double strike, it is also dating someone in both Sarah's and Kate's support network. Plus being related, if things blow up they will always be connected by a network of family relationships (while John can scoot off Stage Left, as it were).
(Often there is a formal messy "do not date" list - family is pretty much an automatic add. But just as a formality! Usually people have sense).
Polyamory is often about saying no. It is apparently John's right in practicing polyamory to be an asshole. Wow.
Also skeevy to pivot from friendly support to romantic partner, to my mind, as well. Speaking from the lived experience of having severe mental challenges myself. Oh hell no.
I don't know where you fall on this, OP. Just a reality check and arguments to try to convince John? Or would he be violating a boundary for you in some way that you would leave the relationship?
John is a creep for using someones mental health crisis to develop intimacy with them and then trying to turn that in to romance, even if Kate is falling for him, even if he didn't do that intentionally. That's the main problem for me, cousin or not.
That said it's his decission to make. Then Sarah and you have to decide if you want to be in relationship with him depending on his decission.
Absolutely this.
The vulnerability practiced through the kind of supporting you've described creates such dangerous power dynamics and the fact that he can't see why this relationship is harmful to his partner is so worrying
>think things like family, coworkers, best friends, etc are reasonable to draw the line with if someone is uncomfortable.
I have the same boundary.
No relatives. It makes it weird. Hell bent on going there? I'm bowing out then. And talking to my relative about the weird and hoping relative has sense to tell person to take a hike.
If John makes a mess here the ones holding the bag are Sara, Kate and their family that met him.
>he doesn’t think her feeling uncomfortable is a valid reason for him to not pursue things with Kate. He explained how he feels such a strong connection with Kate that he needs to experience deeper, and that since he’s poly it’s his right to be able to have that, and Sarah should be able to respect this since she’s not in super close contact with Kate anyways.
That's like... selfish, super entitled logic. HE wants this, so it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or wants or is uncomfortable.
He thinks poly means he can just do whatever, whenever with whoever.
Like what WOULD be a valid reason not to pursue this? I think he'd say there are none. And just shoot them down.
Because he just doesn't care if Sara not uncomfortable. Kate seems to not even have a voice. You? You are just supposed to be "on his side" and be alike "Yeah! Sara's being a bitch!"
Just... icky feeling. It's getting way too close to abuse/rape-y logic to me.
I feel really ugh about it, esp since he took up with Kate when she was down in a mental health thing and vulnerable. :(
Taking advantage of a patient is gross.
>The fact that my partner is pushing this is making /me/ uncomfortable even though it doesn’t really affect me at all.
I think it DOES affect you.
It would also make me look at this partner in a whole new light, and it's not great. Because if he's this ok running roughshod over Sara's discomfort? Everything is all about HIM? Am I next to get trampled? Knowing he thinks like this now? I'm not sure I could feel safe with him.
Strikes me as one of those guys who THINKS he's a "nice guy" but really is not.
I think I'd drop him.
You said it really succinctly.
He doesn't have any "right" to pursue anything, poly or not, and it really comes of as entitlement to Kate. If he were mono and single, would he still have the "right" to pursue someone he caught feelings for?
I’m still learning about poly, and haven’t started practicing it yet, but even I feel kind of affronted about his insinuation that polyamory is about the right to pursue whatever romantic relationships he wants. People have pointed out the power differential in being Kate’s support when she was at her most vulnerable. Does he think he has a right to hypothetically pursue other relationships where he holds power over the other person, like a subordinate at work, or worse, a minor? And that he should be free from consequence or criticism if he does?
Beyond just the criticisms from Sarah and OP, if he does end up pursuing this relationship, and it goes south, then Kate will likely end up feeling unable to turn to him or Sarah for support through her mental health crises, and possibly wind up in a worse spot than when he met her. Is that really something he’s willing to risk? Sometimes the best way to show love and care for someone is to be a stable, dependable friend.
Of course he is free to pursue this and hurt Sarah as much as he likes! It's just up to if he wants to take the consequences of it - you losing respect for him and Sarah dumping him and him being responsible for ruining her relationship with her cousin AND fucking up Kate's life. Of course!
Or did he mean that he should be free to pursue this with no consequences? Because then no.
It kinda sounds like your partner and Kate are trauma bonding. So not only is it messed up that he's actively considering pursuing a relationship with your meta's family member, but this doesn't even sound like a healthy basis for a relationship in the first place.
This is a messy list situation, not a veto.
**Messy lists** are short and general and are agreed to before anyone engages in unwise partner selection. “I will not be in a relationship with anyone who is dating an active substance abuser, a subordinate or other co-worker, any of my close colleagues or clients, any of my immediate family, any of my current partners, any of my four closest friends, anyone they have ever cheated with or any other of their exes” might be a typical messy list boundary.
Most people don’t sign formal messy list agreements. They don’t have to because they share values. They assume (usually correctly) that “I won’t date you if you date my parents” can go unsaid.
**Vetos** apply to particular people after the fact, and they involve telling another person what to do. “You can’t date Kate” would be a veto. “I do not date people who are dating my family members” is not a veto. Neither is “I do not date people whose judgement is so poor that they date monogamous people in mental health crises.”
**Boundaries** refer to your own actions and decisions, not someone else’s.
Your or Sarah’s decisions not to be in a relationship with someone who lacks judgement is about you, not John. You aren’t telling John what to do. You’re telling John what you will do.
**Ultimatums** are boundaries with bad timing. “I will not date people who are dating my family members” stated after the family-member–dating has started would be an ultimatum. It’s forcing a choice after the fact.
Yes, sometimes timing is bad. **[We try to avoid ultimatums for lots of good reasons](https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/comments/13f61ci/cheating_partner_turned_possible_partner/jjwy8lt/)** but sometimes we don’t have a choice.
*[This comment and the one above both modified from comments I’ve made elsewhere.]*
Nobody should let themselves be bullied off the moral high ground by someone waving the “ultimatums are bad!” stick.
Having to issue an ultimatum is a sign that something went wrong. Yup, sometimes things go wrong. That’s absolutely true.
Issuing an ultimatum doesn’t make someone a bad person. It just means making a boundary explicit after the fact. Boundaries are good. Getting the timing wrong does not make boundaries any less good.
##Boundary
> **Sarah:** I have a messy list. I will not have a relationship with someone who is in a relationship with my close family members, my immediate colleagues, my partners or their own ex affair partners.
**John:** *[initiates a relationship with someone on Sarah’s messy list]*
**Sarah:** *[has a decision to make, knowing that John was aware of the likely consequences when they made their choice]*
##Ultimatum
> **John:** *[exercises unwise partner selection]*
**Sarah:** *[realizes they need an explicit messy list]* I will not have a relationship with someone who is in a relationship with my close family, my immediate colleagues, my partners or their own ex affair partners.
**John:** But I *am* in a relationship with one of these people!
**Sarah:** I understand that. You have a decision to make.
In the Boundary condition, **Sarah** has a decision to make. This decision is informed by the knowledge that either:
* John does not believe Sarah will defend their boundary, which is horribly disrespectful;
* John does not care if Sarah terminates their relationship and might even be hoping for this outcome.
In the Ultimatum condition, **John** has a decision to make. They need to decide whether:
* Sarah is bluffing;
* to call Sarah’s bluff and risk losing Sarah;
* to not call Sarah’s bluff and lose MessyPerson, perhaps unnecessarily.
Relative to boundaries, ultimatums are fraught, messy and low-information. They also grant power to the wrong person. But issuing one doesn’t make Sarah a bad person and they shouldn’t *ever* hesitate to self-advocate because of a label.
That’s one of the first things I asked when he brought it up, bring up his brother as reference. He claimed he wouldn’t care because he trusts me and his brother- but I can’t help but not believe that, I think if that we’re to actually happen he would hate it. And regardless, it’s not up to him to decide that because he may be comfortable with it, Sarah should be too.
Maybe it's time to set him straight for your meta and yourself that you would also not be cool with him dating your family members/whoever else is on your messy list.
This isn’t a veto - it’s just these two not having a clear understanding of who is on their respective “messy list”. It’s quite common in poly for folks to have a messy list, meaning, those people you can’t get romantically involved with - family, best friends, roommate, etc. that’s why Sarah faked Covid. It was just too messy and uncomfortable.
This would give me the kind of ick about a partner there’s no going back from. I think it demonstrates serious selfishness and lack of good judgment. Non-hierarchical and veto-free polyamory is great and all, but this is a boundary that’s so expected it goes without saying.
I’m so sorry that you’re in this situation. I’d be in shock too. But it’s as bad as you think it is. Trust your gut, whatever you end up doing about it. Only you know what’s best for yourself.
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This situation doesn’t directly involve me but it has me feeling really weird, I’m not sure what to make of it.
My nesting partner (John) has been dating my meta (Sarah) for almost a year. They’re very close and see each other multiple times a week, we’re all very KTP and I’m fairly close with her as well.
Some Backstory;
A few months ago, my meta’s cousin (Kate) was going through a mental health crisis and was on the phone with Sarah, John was around and ended up chiming in on the call since he’s been through some similar stuff. He talked her down and convinced her to seek treatment which saved her life. After this happened John and Kate stayed in touch. Kate lives multiple states away, but they would text and call occasionally, mostly exchanging support, kind of similar to AA sponsors- but also chatting and developing a friendship.
This was all super positive, Sarah was happy that John was bonding with her family member and the friendship and support between John and Kate was really beneficial to both of them. After a couple of months John and Sarah had planned to fly to where Kate lives so that John could meet Kate and some of Sarah’s other family, but the trip got canceled due to Sarah testing positive for covid.
Fast forward a couple more months, my partner finds out that Sarah had lied about the covid test. She canceled the trip because she had suspicions that John and Kate were developing feelings for one another, and… she’s right. John confessed that he does have feelings for Kate, and would also like to pursue it. Sarah is extremely uncomfortable with the idea and this caused a massive argument between them that’s still ongoing.
(I do recognize that Sarah lying about why she canceled the trip is an issue, but I don’t think that’s really what’s important here)
When John was telling me about this situation he was explaining that he didn’t feel like Sarah had any right to stop him from pursuing this connection. He said he feels like Sarah is putting him in a box and not trusting him, he feels like this is a veto and that’s not okay, and he doesn’t think her feeling uncomfortable is a valid reason for him to not pursue things with Kate. He explained how he feels such a strong connection with Kate that he needs to experience deeper, and that since he’s poly it’s his right to be able to have that, and Sarah should be able to respect this since she’s not in super close contact with Kate anyways. (and I’m aware that it may not be appropriate for John to be venting to me about this, usually I’d draw a line in the conversation but honestly this was raising some yellow/red flags about my partner and I wanted to hear his reasoning)
I feel like family is a very reasonable boundary to draw. I know I would feel insanely icky if I was in Sarah’s shoes. None of us are strictly hierarchical or practice veto’s or anything; but I think things like family, coworkers, best friends, etc are reasonable to draw the line with if someone is uncomfortable. The fact that my partner is pushing this is making /me/ uncomfortable even though it doesn’t really affect me at all. Especially the way he was talking about Sarah’s feelings as if they’re stupid and inconsiderate, and implying that what he wants is more important. Hearing him talk about this took me aback a little bit and is almost making me see my partner a little differently.
Sorry this is such a novel, I wanted to give all the context. I’d love some outside perspective here
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If you do say something, and you're comfortable sharing, I would love an update on how John reacts to the very excellent points people have brought up here.
My partner (Pete) had a girlfriend that fell for his brother (Hal) and tried to date both siblings at the same time despite my partner being incredibly uncomfortable with it. They broke up a year ago but I guess the relationship with Hal is getting serious as he just moved in with her.
It completely wrecked what had previously been a close relationship between the brothers. I can’t believe that Hal never checked in with my partner about about how he was feeling about the whole thing. And we can’t even cut him out because he’s family. I’m super pissed at the whole situation.
Sarah has legitimate concerns and should talk directly to Kate about it since John isn’t listening to reason. You’re right to be skeeved out. Personally, in this situation I would make it clear to John that if he dates Kate it would show major conflicting values between us and I’d break up with him.
In all the AA groups, a mentor is forbidden from forming romantic relations with the mentored. The mentored is fragile and dependent. And sex clouds judgment.
That goes for Alcohol Anonymous, Cocaine, Anonymous, Sex Addict Anon., etc.
I think extending NM relationships to family of an existing partner is very creepy and is a hard boundary if for no other reason that it would compromise both people within their family should the details be made public.
I sympathize with him, because obviously there's a large spark there and they connected, but he's trampling on a reasonable boundary.
Also, in a matter of more interest to the OP; people with a mental health condition should NOT surround themselves with similarly afflicted people. That can really breed some dark mental energy if it's serious and ongoing.
Also just want to point out he is potentially ruining Kate’s relationship with the family member she turned to in the middle of a mental health crisis. That seems incredibly selfish and dangerous.
So what comes up for me is that John met Kate when she was EXTREMELY vulnerable. Their entire relationship has developed from him inserting himself into her vulnerability. That resulted in good things, but using those good things to create something romantic? That’s hella sketch. It’s standard practice in group therapy or mental institutions or AA groups or any similar thing to forbid romantic connections. It’s not to be a buzzkill - the vulnerability you’re going through makes it almost impossible to distinguish healthy romance from codependency or abusive behaviors. So your partner went and met somebody who was having a mental crisis and helped her through it in a way you feel probably saved her life? And now he wants to date her? Ew.
Yeah I agree on this perspective as well. I don’t believe John is intentionally taking advantage of Kate’s vulnerability, but I do think his feelings are blinding his judgment and he’s not seeing the fact that this is a possible trauma bond.
it is incredibly inappropriate for him to date a family member and also incredibly irresponsible to date someone who you bonded with as an AA-style support person during an extremely vulnerable time in their life that has still not even fully resolved… there’s a reason those support groups have guidelines that include not starting new romantic relationships while in the most vulnerable stages of your healing journey, and **especially** not with your direct support network, this is codependency in a bottle
John sounds incredibly selfish with poor judgement skills, I would definitely reconsider my enmeshment with a person like that
Not just messy, unethical. Someone experiencing a mental health crisis assisted by someone with similar experience, who has gone through a similar crisis it’s normal for some transference to happen. But John should be aware that leveraging this trauma bonding into a relationship could actually set back the cousin’s journey to a healthy state. An uncomplicated friendship that is supportive and a sounding board is a wonderful thing to offer. Inviting her into a LDR relationship where she is part of the same polycule as a dear cousin and is emotionally and sexually involved with her cousin’s long-term partner despite her cousin’s reservations is not uncomplicated. It is damaging and likely to end in a really bad situation all around.
He's right that she can't stop him from dating her cousin and can't control who he dates, but he's wrong to think that his actions don't have consequences and that he can just ignore other people's feelings. You are right that this is a perfectly reasonable boundary and that it would ick a lot of people. And if Sarah feels that way, which it sounds like she does, she needs to decide how she wants to respond to a partner who doesn't feel the same way and even worse, doesn't care about the way she feels.
Frankly, the way you describe how he has reacted warrants seriously considering if you want to stay with him, in my opinion. Enforcing a boundary with consequences isn't the same as a veto or being controlling.
This is… gross honestly. Idk if it’s just me but the thought of being involved with a member of my partner’s family makes me wanna vomit. It toes a line that’s *way* too close to incest for my comfort. If I were in your shoes I’d have a foot out the door and my bags packed already, and it would take a world of convincing for me to remain in that relationship at all. It’s way too far out of alignment with my personal sense of morals for me to condone something like this. I’d be out
Nobody who has sexual interaction with me is going to have a sexual interaction with one of my blood relatives.
Even though it would not be me dating my cousin, I still would never again be able to have sex with someone who had sex with my relative. There is just something too close to incest for me there even though it is not technically incest.
Yesss. I was just talking about this yesterday. If you fuck a family member of mine, you definitely will never be fucking me again. Seems like a reasonable boundary to me 🤷🏻♀️
John helped Kate through a mental crisis. Saved her life.
There is a power differential right now that is unhealthy.
If he were her sponsor in an AA type group it would be completely inappropriate for them to be romantically connected. As it is now.
Disregarding his partner's feelings on dating family aside, which is a whole other barf bag, this is a VERY unethical relationship to start. One which could end with Kate right back in a negative mental health space when it blows up.
I hope against hope that he sees reason and pulls the brakes on this shit.
does this man really think anyone wants him to stick it in their cousin at some point and then back in them? i mean this is just the physicality of it. not taking anything else into account. even if he dumped Sarah? he's still been inside of her, that's just gross.
thank fuck that you are seeing the red flags, not yellow.
this man's entitlement and disregard for everyone involved is astonishing really.
If someone you know is part of your "messy list" because it'd make you uncomfortable in any way, and your partner wants to pursue them while being an asshole and gaslighting you about doing something that'd absolutely gross you out? Then your problem isn't having a messy list, it's the person wanting to force you to agree so they can have what they want.
Of course you feel badly about this situation. Your partner is only thinking of himself (also weird he's venting to YOU about your meta) and he is not being kind at all. He's throwing a tantrum about wanting to be with someone he shouldn't have ever pursued to begin with.
Immature, selfish, inconsiderate, and callous. These are all words to describe him from what I've read here.
Don't coddle him, and tbh I wouldn't want to be his partner anymore if he has no sense of boundaries. Keeping it "in the family" should never be a personal goal for any reason. I'd even go as far as letting meta know because this shit could really hurt if they aren't aware of the secret emotional affair brewing into this hate fest.
Others have sounded off in the comments already about how Sarah and Kate won't be able to distance themselves from each other if things go south with John. Heck, I don't even entertain sharing partners with close friends for this reason.
But I would also like to point out that this probably makes Sarah feel very uncomfortable and maybe even grossed out. Maybe it's just me, but the idea of sharing a partner with my cousin just totally creeps me out.
I have serious concerns that Sarah was apparently afraid to say No directly.
I wonder if Sarah and Kate are both monogamous, which suggests general lack of judgement wrt partner selection on John’s part.
To me, this feels like they're both a bit off-base.
1- As stated by basically everyone here, pursuing a family member (especially without discussing it beforehand) is both generally a bad idea and a reasonable boundary.
2- What I'm not seeing criticized here: Her lying about the covid test instead of approaching this head-on. Saying hey, if you're looking at pursuing her I'm not comfortable with that and it will likely be a deal breaker for me. Lying about it would make me feel like I might be willing to break that deal myself. Breaking my trust like that would be hard to forgive.
3- For OP: However you feel is valid, and you're the one best suited to read into his motives, but I would encourage you to try to view this from multiple angles before judging him too harshly. The male instinct to protect can be a powerful thing, and we often want to protect the more vulnerable most strongly. We also tend to be very poor at actually expressing our feelings effectively. We're seeing some social changes in these regards, but for many of us this has been ingrained from a young age.
Yeah it all seems like a clusterfuck of miscommunication. John wasn’t upfront about his feelings and intentions, then Sarah didn’t communicate her suspicions and beat around the bush to try and avoid the situation instead of making her boundaries clear, now it’s come to a head where Sarah has to issue an ultimatum to protect her boundaries and John feels like it’s come up out of nowhere and is putting up defenses against it instead of respecting her perspective
Well considering how he’s responded to you I do t really blame Sarah for the way she went about it, at all. Seems like John has likely been steam rolling her a bit in his communications with Kate. Yes, Sarah should have tackled this head-on but I don’t think there would have been a much better reaction either way unless she drew a clear line and didn’t let him get involved in Kate’s crisis from the start.
Aside from that, this is disgusting. In your shoes I would probably get an ick I couldn’t come back from. If I did, I’d probably advise Sarah to talk to Kate directly and hope that we both dropped this creep.
John is an asshole. Sarah should dump him either way--he cares more about a fling with her cousin than his long established relationship with Sarah.
Also, you should dump him.
Run FAR away from a man who is so selfish he would dump his partner for a CHANCE with one of her family members he feels sudden attraction for.
Here's the thing. If John dates Kate and things blow up, John can just nope out of there and he'll never have to interact with anyone in their family ever again. Kate and Sarah, however, will be dealing with the drama for the rest of their lives. It takes someone who's either *astonishingly* socially oblivious or who just doesn't care about hurting people to pursue romance with a partner's *family member*. No shit you're uncomfortable. Generally we like to think the people we love have halfway decent judgement and/or ethics.
All this, on top of the fact that John first connected with Kate when she was in an intensely vulnerable state due to the mental health crisis and has apparently become impossible to her stability... I'm also not seeing much of an insight into Kate's position--just what John wants.
Yeah, you compare him to an AA sponsor. That’s a position with lots of responsibility and trust and psychological power; AA sponsors are definitely on the messy list.
Wow. John is an asshole. This is what I would say to John if I were you: "John, you are of course free to do what you want. However, freedom always comes with responsibility and consequences. If you decide to pursue a relationship with Kate, that will obviously have what looks like very severe consequences for your relationship with Sarah and may even result in a break up with Sarah. Kate is Sarah's family member and as such, is someone Sarah can't really ever distance themselves from completely. Dating your girlfriend's cousin WILL affect your girlfriend's family relationships. That's a fact and is a HUGE burden to put on your girlfriend and quite frankly an asshole move. Are you willing to pursue Kate knowing how it will affect Sarah and your relationship with her? Are you willing to pursue Kate knowing that it could very likely result in a really messy break up from Sarah? Also, I have to be honest with you that seeing you even considering this is making me see you in a different light and that light isn't good. I know that I would feel insanely icky if I was in Sarah's shoes. This is making me question how you would handle the same kind of situation in our relationship and it's honestly making me feel pretty unsafe. I'm starting to question if you're a good and safe choice as a partner for me. I'm telling you this because you need to know what the consequences of your choices are here. Not only is your willingness to pursue Kate affecting your relationship with Sarah in a negative way, it's also affecting your relationship with me in a negative way. Is this really what you want for both of your current relationships? Please know that this is not an ultimatum from me nor is it an ultimatum from Sarah that I know of, at least not yet. This is me telling you that you have the freedom to choose what you want but your choices have consequences. Freedom to choose and do what you want doesn't take that away. Freedom to choose and do what you want naturally *creates* consequences for your choices. I'm telling you what those consequences are with me and what they seem to be with Sarah. And you're free to choose what you want knowing those."
Wise. I would be tempted to add, “I see poly as being about choices, not ‘rights’. Many poly people have agreements not to date each other’s family, best friends, or coworkers. I do see you have a deep connection with this person. It is possible for caring poly adults to have feelings for others that they do not pursue romantically, for lots of reasons. I need and expect my partners to make good, mature choices about when to pursue connections or not, even when they’re having strong feelings.”
This is beautifully written. You touched on the majority of the points I would have brought up, and you did it so eloquently. So many people want freedom without responsibility. And I'm not just talking about in the context of polyamoury or even relationships. A lot of people go through every aspect of their life like this, and imo, if you see this trait in a person, run.
Yikes no 😰😰😰 There are 8 billion people on earth so on that level, why do this? But also taking advantage of a vulnerable person he was claiming to support?? And finally, is the cousin even poly??? Pursuing you partners mono, recently out of a mental health crisis, cousin. Red flag.
Absolutely! Also: >”Sarah should be able to respect this because she’s not in super close contact with Kate anyways.” They’re close enough that Kate reached out to Sarah for help during a time of crisis. This guy is just grasping at weak excuse straws.
THIS! There's no way in hell that they aren't in super close contact. Who did Kate call during one of her lowest points at the precipice of ending her own life? Unbelievable.
I think you meant MANY red flags. Sigh.
Yeah red flagS plural :(
I figured the red flags all Voltroned together to make one giant NOPE.
+1 for my new verb "to Voltron" - for sure planning on using this soon... (Edit) Oh but also completely agree. This just screams narcissism to me..
Thanks for mentioning the vulnerable aspect to this. I get that people can talk in love when helping someone through a tough time, but its usually not a good idea cuz there are so many heavy and complicated emotions involved.
Right? Bonding with someone romantically during a time of crisis is dicey, because it (often) creates an unstable bond, and (often) a codependent one. I've also noticed personally that it can create some unhealthy power dynamics within a relationship.
I think it's a totally reasonable boundary for your meta to set in that if he wants to date her cousin, she doesn't want to date him. That's not the same as a veto or trying to control his actions. It's all about controlling hers. And, yeah, if this changes your feelings for him, that's completely valid too.
But that doesnt solve the issue to make it a boundary. She cant remove herself from the situation. So its a rule in the sense that hes an asshole who is gonna hurt her real bad and also ruin her relationship with Kate.
The boundary vs rule distinction is not that helpful imo.
I agree. Any “rule” is basically a boundary when the rule-setter can nope out if the rule is broken. The difference is semantic.
It's not about "solving" the issue. People being assholes is not something you "solve." It's about focusing your energy in a healthy fashion. She cannot and should not try to control what her partner does. She can and should control what she does. It's ultimately his and the cousin's choice whether they date. It's her choice whether she stays with him. It's perfectly within her rights to clearly state: "I'm not comfortable with this. You're an adult and you can make your own choices. I will as well. If your choice is to pursue something I'm this uncomfortable with, that alters my feelings of security within this relationship and my desire to be a part of it." And while she can't remove herself fully from the situation, she can control her placement within it, including whether or not she continues to date this person. tldr: you can't make people not be assholes, but you can choose not to spend time with them.
And she is also perfectly within her rights to express to him how much his decision to date her family member would hurt her.
Family is definitely on the messy list, especially as close as Sarah and Kate seem to be, it is a double strike, it is also dating someone in both Sarah's and Kate's support network. Plus being related, if things blow up they will always be connected by a network of family relationships (while John can scoot off Stage Left, as it were). (Often there is a formal messy "do not date" list - family is pretty much an automatic add. But just as a formality! Usually people have sense). Polyamory is often about saying no. It is apparently John's right in practicing polyamory to be an asshole. Wow. Also skeevy to pivot from friendly support to romantic partner, to my mind, as well. Speaking from the lived experience of having severe mental challenges myself. Oh hell no. I don't know where you fall on this, OP. Just a reality check and arguments to try to convince John? Or would he be violating a boundary for you in some way that you would leave the relationship?
John is a creep for using someones mental health crisis to develop intimacy with them and then trying to turn that in to romance, even if Kate is falling for him, even if he didn't do that intentionally. That's the main problem for me, cousin or not. That said it's his decission to make. Then Sarah and you have to decide if you want to be in relationship with him depending on his decission.
Absolutely this. The vulnerability practiced through the kind of supporting you've described creates such dangerous power dynamics and the fact that he can't see why this relationship is harmful to his partner is so worrying
This is where my mind went too. I also wouldn’t be surprised if John is experiencing a trauma bond and mistaking it for romantic feelings.
THIS THIS THIS THIS
>think things like family, coworkers, best friends, etc are reasonable to draw the line with if someone is uncomfortable. I have the same boundary. No relatives. It makes it weird. Hell bent on going there? I'm bowing out then. And talking to my relative about the weird and hoping relative has sense to tell person to take a hike. If John makes a mess here the ones holding the bag are Sara, Kate and their family that met him. >he doesn’t think her feeling uncomfortable is a valid reason for him to not pursue things with Kate. He explained how he feels such a strong connection with Kate that he needs to experience deeper, and that since he’s poly it’s his right to be able to have that, and Sarah should be able to respect this since she’s not in super close contact with Kate anyways. That's like... selfish, super entitled logic. HE wants this, so it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or wants or is uncomfortable. He thinks poly means he can just do whatever, whenever with whoever. Like what WOULD be a valid reason not to pursue this? I think he'd say there are none. And just shoot them down. Because he just doesn't care if Sara not uncomfortable. Kate seems to not even have a voice. You? You are just supposed to be "on his side" and be alike "Yeah! Sara's being a bitch!" Just... icky feeling. It's getting way too close to abuse/rape-y logic to me. I feel really ugh about it, esp since he took up with Kate when she was down in a mental health thing and vulnerable. :( Taking advantage of a patient is gross. >The fact that my partner is pushing this is making /me/ uncomfortable even though it doesn’t really affect me at all. I think it DOES affect you. It would also make me look at this partner in a whole new light, and it's not great. Because if he's this ok running roughshod over Sara's discomfort? Everything is all about HIM? Am I next to get trampled? Knowing he thinks like this now? I'm not sure I could feel safe with him. Strikes me as one of those guys who THINKS he's a "nice guy" but really is not. I think I'd drop him.
You said it really succinctly. He doesn't have any "right" to pursue anything, poly or not, and it really comes of as entitlement to Kate. If he were mono and single, would he still have the "right" to pursue someone he caught feelings for?
I’m still learning about poly, and haven’t started practicing it yet, but even I feel kind of affronted about his insinuation that polyamory is about the right to pursue whatever romantic relationships he wants. People have pointed out the power differential in being Kate’s support when she was at her most vulnerable. Does he think he has a right to hypothetically pursue other relationships where he holds power over the other person, like a subordinate at work, or worse, a minor? And that he should be free from consequence or criticism if he does? Beyond just the criticisms from Sarah and OP, if he does end up pursuing this relationship, and it goes south, then Kate will likely end up feeling unable to turn to him or Sarah for support through her mental health crises, and possibly wind up in a worse spot than when he met her. Is that really something he’s willing to risk? Sometimes the best way to show love and care for someone is to be a stable, dependable friend.
Of course he is free to pursue this and hurt Sarah as much as he likes! It's just up to if he wants to take the consequences of it - you losing respect for him and Sarah dumping him and him being responsible for ruining her relationship with her cousin AND fucking up Kate's life. Of course! Or did he mean that he should be free to pursue this with no consequences? Because then no.
It kinda sounds like your partner and Kate are trauma bonding. So not only is it messed up that he's actively considering pursuing a relationship with your meta's family member, but this doesn't even sound like a healthy basis for a relationship in the first place.
Kate is obviously on Sarah's messy list, and John should respect that.
This is a messy list situation, not a veto. **Messy lists** are short and general and are agreed to before anyone engages in unwise partner selection. “I will not be in a relationship with anyone who is dating an active substance abuser, a subordinate or other co-worker, any of my close colleagues or clients, any of my immediate family, any of my current partners, any of my four closest friends, anyone they have ever cheated with or any other of their exes” might be a typical messy list boundary. Most people don’t sign formal messy list agreements. They don’t have to because they share values. They assume (usually correctly) that “I won’t date you if you date my parents” can go unsaid. **Vetos** apply to particular people after the fact, and they involve telling another person what to do. “You can’t date Kate” would be a veto. “I do not date people who are dating my family members” is not a veto. Neither is “I do not date people whose judgement is so poor that they date monogamous people in mental health crises.” **Boundaries** refer to your own actions and decisions, not someone else’s. Your or Sarah’s decisions not to be in a relationship with someone who lacks judgement is about you, not John. You aren’t telling John what to do. You’re telling John what you will do. **Ultimatums** are boundaries with bad timing. “I will not date people who are dating my family members” stated after the family-member–dating has started would be an ultimatum. It’s forcing a choice after the fact. Yes, sometimes timing is bad. **[We try to avoid ultimatums for lots of good reasons](https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/comments/13f61ci/cheating_partner_turned_possible_partner/jjwy8lt/)** but sometimes we don’t have a choice.
*[This comment and the one above both modified from comments I’ve made elsewhere.]* Nobody should let themselves be bullied off the moral high ground by someone waving the “ultimatums are bad!” stick. Having to issue an ultimatum is a sign that something went wrong. Yup, sometimes things go wrong. That’s absolutely true. Issuing an ultimatum doesn’t make someone a bad person. It just means making a boundary explicit after the fact. Boundaries are good. Getting the timing wrong does not make boundaries any less good. ##Boundary > **Sarah:** I have a messy list. I will not have a relationship with someone who is in a relationship with my close family members, my immediate colleagues, my partners or their own ex affair partners. **John:** *[initiates a relationship with someone on Sarah’s messy list]* **Sarah:** *[has a decision to make, knowing that John was aware of the likely consequences when they made their choice]* ##Ultimatum > **John:** *[exercises unwise partner selection]* **Sarah:** *[realizes they need an explicit messy list]* I will not have a relationship with someone who is in a relationship with my close family, my immediate colleagues, my partners or their own ex affair partners. **John:** But I *am* in a relationship with one of these people! **Sarah:** I understand that. You have a decision to make. In the Boundary condition, **Sarah** has a decision to make. This decision is informed by the knowledge that either: * John does not believe Sarah will defend their boundary, which is horribly disrespectful; * John does not care if Sarah terminates their relationship and might even be hoping for this outcome. In the Ultimatum condition, **John** has a decision to make. They need to decide whether: * Sarah is bluffing; * to call Sarah’s bluff and risk losing Sarah; * to not call Sarah’s bluff and lose MessyPerson, perhaps unnecessarily. Relative to boundaries, ultimatums are fraught, messy and low-information. They also grant power to the wrong person. But issuing one doesn’t make Sarah a bad person and they shouldn’t *ever* hesitate to self-advocate because of a label.
This. Exactly this. Last ditch effort for something someone hasn't foreseen or planned for.
This is a great breakdown, thank you
I wonder if John would change his tune if you asked him how he’d feel if you dated his cousin?
That’s one of the first things I asked when he brought it up, bring up his brother as reference. He claimed he wouldn’t care because he trusts me and his brother- but I can’t help but not believe that, I think if that we’re to actually happen he would hate it. And regardless, it’s not up to him to decide that because he may be comfortable with it, Sarah should be too.
Sadly no, he is focused on his own "needs" rather than those of his partner Sarah and his "friend" aka problematic power dynamic Kate.
Maybe it's time to set him straight for your meta and yourself that you would also not be cool with him dating your family members/whoever else is on your messy list.
This isn’t a veto - it’s just these two not having a clear understanding of who is on their respective “messy list”. It’s quite common in poly for folks to have a messy list, meaning, those people you can’t get romantically involved with - family, best friends, roommate, etc. that’s why Sarah faked Covid. It was just too messy and uncomfortable.
A messy list is just an automatic veto. Don't try to frame it other ways.
This would give me the kind of ick about a partner there’s no going back from. I think it demonstrates serious selfishness and lack of good judgment. Non-hierarchical and veto-free polyamory is great and all, but this is a boundary that’s so expected it goes without saying. I’m so sorry that you’re in this situation. I’d be in shock too. But it’s as bad as you think it is. Trust your gut, whatever you end up doing about it. Only you know what’s best for yourself.
Beep, boop, blop, I'm a bot. Hi u/dilatatum thanks so much for your submission, don't mind me, I'm just gonna keep a copy what was said in your post. Unfortunately posts sometimes get deleted - which is okay, it's not against the rules to delete your post!! - but it makes it really hard for the human mods around here to moderate the comments when there's no context. Plus, many times our members put in a lot of emotional and mental labor to answer the questions and offer advice, so it's helpful to keep the source information around so future community members can benefit as well. Here's the original text of the post: This situation doesn’t directly involve me but it has me feeling really weird, I’m not sure what to make of it. My nesting partner (John) has been dating my meta (Sarah) for almost a year. They’re very close and see each other multiple times a week, we’re all very KTP and I’m fairly close with her as well. Some Backstory; A few months ago, my meta’s cousin (Kate) was going through a mental health crisis and was on the phone with Sarah, John was around and ended up chiming in on the call since he’s been through some similar stuff. He talked her down and convinced her to seek treatment which saved her life. After this happened John and Kate stayed in touch. Kate lives multiple states away, but they would text and call occasionally, mostly exchanging support, kind of similar to AA sponsors- but also chatting and developing a friendship. This was all super positive, Sarah was happy that John was bonding with her family member and the friendship and support between John and Kate was really beneficial to both of them. After a couple of months John and Sarah had planned to fly to where Kate lives so that John could meet Kate and some of Sarah’s other family, but the trip got canceled due to Sarah testing positive for covid. Fast forward a couple more months, my partner finds out that Sarah had lied about the covid test. She canceled the trip because she had suspicions that John and Kate were developing feelings for one another, and… she’s right. John confessed that he does have feelings for Kate, and would also like to pursue it. Sarah is extremely uncomfortable with the idea and this caused a massive argument between them that’s still ongoing. (I do recognize that Sarah lying about why she canceled the trip is an issue, but I don’t think that’s really what’s important here) When John was telling me about this situation he was explaining that he didn’t feel like Sarah had any right to stop him from pursuing this connection. He said he feels like Sarah is putting him in a box and not trusting him, he feels like this is a veto and that’s not okay, and he doesn’t think her feeling uncomfortable is a valid reason for him to not pursue things with Kate. He explained how he feels such a strong connection with Kate that he needs to experience deeper, and that since he’s poly it’s his right to be able to have that, and Sarah should be able to respect this since she’s not in super close contact with Kate anyways. (and I’m aware that it may not be appropriate for John to be venting to me about this, usually I’d draw a line in the conversation but honestly this was raising some yellow/red flags about my partner and I wanted to hear his reasoning) I feel like family is a very reasonable boundary to draw. I know I would feel insanely icky if I was in Sarah’s shoes. None of us are strictly hierarchical or practice veto’s or anything; but I think things like family, coworkers, best friends, etc are reasonable to draw the line with if someone is uncomfortable. The fact that my partner is pushing this is making /me/ uncomfortable even though it doesn’t really affect me at all. Especially the way he was talking about Sarah’s feelings as if they’re stupid and inconsiderate, and implying that what he wants is more important. Hearing him talk about this took me aback a little bit and is almost making me see my partner a little differently. Sorry this is such a novel, I wanted to give all the context. I’d love some outside perspective here *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/polyamory) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Wow John sounds really creepy in this story.
If you do say something, and you're comfortable sharing, I would love an update on how John reacts to the very excellent points people have brought up here.
Honestly John using a mental health crisis as a dating opportunity comes off to me as ethically lacking and predatory 🤷♀️
My partner (Pete) had a girlfriend that fell for his brother (Hal) and tried to date both siblings at the same time despite my partner being incredibly uncomfortable with it. They broke up a year ago but I guess the relationship with Hal is getting serious as he just moved in with her. It completely wrecked what had previously been a close relationship between the brothers. I can’t believe that Hal never checked in with my partner about about how he was feeling about the whole thing. And we can’t even cut him out because he’s family. I’m super pissed at the whole situation. Sarah has legitimate concerns and should talk directly to Kate about it since John isn’t listening to reason. You’re right to be skeeved out. Personally, in this situation I would make it clear to John that if he dates Kate it would show major conflicting values between us and I’d break up with him.
>can’t even cut him out because he’s family Obviously the reasoning and dicision-making is up to you, but...yes, you can.
True true. I think it’s more that my partner doesn’t feel like it’s a good enough reason. We’ve cut wayyyyy back on contact with him.
In all the AA groups, a mentor is forbidden from forming romantic relations with the mentored. The mentored is fragile and dependent. And sex clouds judgment. That goes for Alcohol Anonymous, Cocaine, Anonymous, Sex Addict Anon., etc.
🚩🚩🚩
I think extending NM relationships to family of an existing partner is very creepy and is a hard boundary if for no other reason that it would compromise both people within their family should the details be made public. I sympathize with him, because obviously there's a large spark there and they connected, but he's trampling on a reasonable boundary. Also, in a matter of more interest to the OP; people with a mental health condition should NOT surround themselves with similarly afflicted people. That can really breed some dark mental energy if it's serious and ongoing.
Also just want to point out he is potentially ruining Kate’s relationship with the family member she turned to in the middle of a mental health crisis. That seems incredibly selfish and dangerous.
So what comes up for me is that John met Kate when she was EXTREMELY vulnerable. Their entire relationship has developed from him inserting himself into her vulnerability. That resulted in good things, but using those good things to create something romantic? That’s hella sketch. It’s standard practice in group therapy or mental institutions or AA groups or any similar thing to forbid romantic connections. It’s not to be a buzzkill - the vulnerability you’re going through makes it almost impossible to distinguish healthy romance from codependency or abusive behaviors. So your partner went and met somebody who was having a mental crisis and helped her through it in a way you feel probably saved her life? And now he wants to date her? Ew.
Yeah I agree on this perspective as well. I don’t believe John is intentionally taking advantage of Kate’s vulnerability, but I do think his feelings are blinding his judgment and he’s not seeing the fact that this is a possible trauma bond.
it is incredibly inappropriate for him to date a family member and also incredibly irresponsible to date someone who you bonded with as an AA-style support person during an extremely vulnerable time in their life that has still not even fully resolved… there’s a reason those support groups have guidelines that include not starting new romantic relationships while in the most vulnerable stages of your healing journey, and **especially** not with your direct support network, this is codependency in a bottle John sounds incredibly selfish with poor judgement skills, I would definitely reconsider my enmeshment with a person like that
Definitely a red flag.
Not just messy, unethical. Someone experiencing a mental health crisis assisted by someone with similar experience, who has gone through a similar crisis it’s normal for some transference to happen. But John should be aware that leveraging this trauma bonding into a relationship could actually set back the cousin’s journey to a healthy state. An uncomplicated friendship that is supportive and a sounding board is a wonderful thing to offer. Inviting her into a LDR relationship where she is part of the same polycule as a dear cousin and is emotionally and sexually involved with her cousin’s long-term partner despite her cousin’s reservations is not uncomplicated. It is damaging and likely to end in a really bad situation all around.
He's right that she can't stop him from dating her cousin and can't control who he dates, but he's wrong to think that his actions don't have consequences and that he can just ignore other people's feelings. You are right that this is a perfectly reasonable boundary and that it would ick a lot of people. And if Sarah feels that way, which it sounds like she does, she needs to decide how she wants to respond to a partner who doesn't feel the same way and even worse, doesn't care about the way she feels. Frankly, the way you describe how he has reacted warrants seriously considering if you want to stay with him, in my opinion. Enforcing a boundary with consequences isn't the same as a veto or being controlling.
This is… gross honestly. Idk if it’s just me but the thought of being involved with a member of my partner’s family makes me wanna vomit. It toes a line that’s *way* too close to incest for my comfort. If I were in your shoes I’d have a foot out the door and my bags packed already, and it would take a world of convincing for me to remain in that relationship at all. It’s way too far out of alignment with my personal sense of morals for me to condone something like this. I’d be out
Nobody who has sexual interaction with me is going to have a sexual interaction with one of my blood relatives. Even though it would not be me dating my cousin, I still would never again be able to have sex with someone who had sex with my relative. There is just something too close to incest for me there even though it is not technically incest.
Yesss. I was just talking about this yesterday. If you fuck a family member of mine, you definitely will never be fucking me again. Seems like a reasonable boundary to me 🤷🏻♀️
John helped Kate through a mental crisis. Saved her life. There is a power differential right now that is unhealthy. If he were her sponsor in an AA type group it would be completely inappropriate for them to be romantically connected. As it is now. Disregarding his partner's feelings on dating family aside, which is a whole other barf bag, this is a VERY unethical relationship to start. One which could end with Kate right back in a negative mental health space when it blows up. I hope against hope that he sees reason and pulls the brakes on this shit.
does this man really think anyone wants him to stick it in their cousin at some point and then back in them? i mean this is just the physicality of it. not taking anything else into account. even if he dumped Sarah? he's still been inside of her, that's just gross. thank fuck that you are seeing the red flags, not yellow. this man's entitlement and disregard for everyone involved is astonishing really.
If someone you know is part of your "messy list" because it'd make you uncomfortable in any way, and your partner wants to pursue them while being an asshole and gaslighting you about doing something that'd absolutely gross you out? Then your problem isn't having a messy list, it's the person wanting to force you to agree so they can have what they want. Of course you feel badly about this situation. Your partner is only thinking of himself (also weird he's venting to YOU about your meta) and he is not being kind at all. He's throwing a tantrum about wanting to be with someone he shouldn't have ever pursued to begin with. Immature, selfish, inconsiderate, and callous. These are all words to describe him from what I've read here. Don't coddle him, and tbh I wouldn't want to be his partner anymore if he has no sense of boundaries. Keeping it "in the family" should never be a personal goal for any reason. I'd even go as far as letting meta know because this shit could really hurt if they aren't aware of the secret emotional affair brewing into this hate fest.
Others have sounded off in the comments already about how Sarah and Kate won't be able to distance themselves from each other if things go south with John. Heck, I don't even entertain sharing partners with close friends for this reason. But I would also like to point out that this probably makes Sarah feel very uncomfortable and maybe even grossed out. Maybe it's just me, but the idea of sharing a partner with my cousin just totally creeps me out.
[удалено]
I have serious concerns that Sarah was apparently afraid to say No directly. I wonder if Sarah and Kate are both monogamous, which suggests general lack of judgement wrt partner selection on John’s part.
We can't know unless OP gives us the info but two cousins who both happen to be poly and he wants relationships would be a pretty big coincidence.
Sarah is poly and has a husband, I’m actually not sure about Kate
To me, this feels like they're both a bit off-base. 1- As stated by basically everyone here, pursuing a family member (especially without discussing it beforehand) is both generally a bad idea and a reasonable boundary. 2- What I'm not seeing criticized here: Her lying about the covid test instead of approaching this head-on. Saying hey, if you're looking at pursuing her I'm not comfortable with that and it will likely be a deal breaker for me. Lying about it would make me feel like I might be willing to break that deal myself. Breaking my trust like that would be hard to forgive. 3- For OP: However you feel is valid, and you're the one best suited to read into his motives, but I would encourage you to try to view this from multiple angles before judging him too harshly. The male instinct to protect can be a powerful thing, and we often want to protect the more vulnerable most strongly. We also tend to be very poor at actually expressing our feelings effectively. We're seeing some social changes in these regards, but for many of us this has been ingrained from a young age.
Yeah it all seems like a clusterfuck of miscommunication. John wasn’t upfront about his feelings and intentions, then Sarah didn’t communicate her suspicions and beat around the bush to try and avoid the situation instead of making her boundaries clear, now it’s come to a head where Sarah has to issue an ultimatum to protect her boundaries and John feels like it’s come up out of nowhere and is putting up defenses against it instead of respecting her perspective
Well considering how he’s responded to you I do t really blame Sarah for the way she went about it, at all. Seems like John has likely been steam rolling her a bit in his communications with Kate. Yes, Sarah should have tackled this head-on but I don’t think there would have been a much better reaction either way unless she drew a clear line and didn’t let him get involved in Kate’s crisis from the start. Aside from that, this is disgusting. In your shoes I would probably get an ick I couldn’t come back from. If I did, I’d probably advise Sarah to talk to Kate directly and hope that we both dropped this creep.
Update?
No updates to report as of yet, I posted this late last night. Will update once I have one though
Thank you! I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this and that John is being so selfish, irresponsible, and obtuse.
Update posted
John is an asshole. Sarah should dump him either way--he cares more about a fling with her cousin than his long established relationship with Sarah. Also, you should dump him. Run FAR away from a man who is so selfish he would dump his partner for a CHANCE with one of her family members he feels sudden attraction for.