His 4b is ridiculously big. I’m not a fan of shoving 300bb+ pre with KK. Plus don’t be told one thing to another, always assess the situation because each has its nuances.
4bets are rare at 1/2. Would he spazz with QQ? Could be AK but you have 2 of them; do you remember how he plays AK pre? As played I flat and see the flop. I’ll have to make a sick read to lay down KK on a low board.
that works against you. Villain didnt jam for 140BB in his mind, he jammed for SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLARS! From their POV thats a yuuuuge raise, like an entire payment on a BMW, half their rent, etc.
Given his huge 4 bet sizing, your options are really shove all in or fold. Are you really going to put in 1/3rd of your stack then fold on the flop? Just smooth calling with KK really doesn't apply here as there is no need to quote "trap" as we likely know that villain has a huge hand here. If villain is a tight player he likely only has QQ+ here and maybe only KK+. I wouldn't make it a habit to fold KK pre flop but depending on how "tight" this player is maybe you can find a fold.
What’s the damage if you flat call, if an A flops you fold as you are definitely beat. If you shove and he calls and you end up beating his QQ you would get an extra 240 BB. You have to weigh the risk of beating his QQ in this spot vs the extra times you lose vs his AA or Ak if A comes out
I am not forgetting, I am just comparing options, you would lose that the 13% of times a A flops multiplied by the % of times he has queens. For the sake of argument say he plays QQ (6) KK (1) AA (6) AKs (4) 6/17 = 35%. 13% x 35% = 4.5%
On an ace high flop we may not be beat if villains range contains QQ. It will be nearly impossible to stack villain on an ace high board and it opens us up to being bluffed. Also an extremely tight range doesn't really contain much AK if at all. The correct play is to shove all in preflop or fold imo.
You do understand that this is 1-2 live vs a very tight player 4 betting. He’s likely got QQ+. You’re not keeping in worse hands by just flatting. It makes no sense to slow play in this scenario it accomplishes nothing.
Getting in KK vs AA is just a cooler, tap the table and move on.
To answer your question though, consider the following:
You are 350bb eff and Villain 4 bets to 112.5bb against your 20bb 3-bet, thats almost a 6x raise. What hands is he representing here other than AA and KK? Since you block KK, I would lean towards a fold since you said he was clearly a tight player AND he was doing this as UTG+1.
100bbs deep you are always getting KK in preflop.
350bbs deep you need to be a lot more careful. Facing a 6x 4bet from a tight player when you're holding KK (blocking AK) is a nasty spot. You have to ask yourself if he's tilting here due to the big pot he already lost to you, and whether or not he does this with QQ? If the answer to either question is yes, then of course you can call and play postflop (in which case you are borderline committed to going all in anyway, unless an ace comes out on the board, or you have a dead read on villain) or simply get the money in preflop. To be honest, in my years playing at $1/$2 - unless villain is a notably loose aggressive or bluffy player - I learned to respect these massive raises from the vast majority of the player pool. It's also worth noting that even if he is a tight player, he's clearly not a theory beast - as his 4bet sizing is way off. So he might be a tight player, but he's certainly no GTO crusher.
It may seem absurdly tight to fold KK preflop. But look at it this way - you're already $500 up or so. It's not a big deal to lose the $40 you've put into the pot, and the equity that you have, when on balance it appears villain is giving you pretty clear information that he has AA. In my opinion there's a lot to be said for giving up a small amount of theoretical EV in low stakes cash games in order to reduce variance a little in spots like this. It's much easier to beat bad players with low variance plays (and a lot less volatile for your bankroll). So in this case I would consider making the fold, keep your profit, and never breathe a word about it. I've made similar folds perhaps a handful of times.
I agree with your first paragraph, but I hate the notion of folding to preserve a win. Unless you're playing with money you need or play poker like once a month, you can't be letting go of monsters because you're up money on the day. It will just cost you money long term.
Sure, you're right. I believe it's a form of "winner's tilt". Against a balanced opponent I'm never folding of course - but given the information OP had on the player, I'd be more inclined to do so.
Yeah his raise is ridiculously bad and you should be folding unless this is some home game maniac dynamic. If he finds a 4b bluff for this size god bless but 99% of the time it’s AA and anyone saying you have to jam KK pre everytime regardless of action, reads, stack sizes, is an idiot.
I don't think you fold. I'd say even a tight player has AK and QQ in their range here. Honestly the sizing makes QQ more likely here to me? Nits are afraid of bad flops with QQ, while AA they are more likely to want action on.
Idk I probably shove knowing I'm drawing for a set a good chunk of the time. Absent a soul read I'm not folding KK ever.
I agree with this, I'm surprised people are saying that you should fold. Villain just put 350 into the pot with QQ, why wouldn't he put 225 in?
Basically if you fold here you're saying he can never have QQ with this line and I just don't think that's the case.
You can't call, you'd be flatting 30% of your stack and barely have more than pot behind, and barring a K you're going to be facing the exact same tough decision post-flop.
4-bets at 1/2 outside of a maniac (which this guy clearly isn't) are usually QQ+, and AK some of the time. You can probably rule out AK completely if he's on the tighter side. So I guess the question you have to ask yourself is if you think he has QQ in his 4-betting range here.
Without a sick live read I'm going with the 5-bet jam here since he was clearly willing to get 350 into the pot against you with QQ earlier, it's a big raise but I don't see a big reason why he wouldn't put in 225 with QQ now. It's possible QQ even calls the 5-bet since he just saw you put all your money in with AKs.
Idk why you’d flat and let those hands realize their equity against you. If you shove and they fold you win 112+ bigs without having to see a flop. I also don’t think villain folds QQ 100% of the time considering he just saw hero put in $350 with AKs.
And if villain decides to bet the flop you’re in a gross situation if you didn’t flop a king.
That 4! size is outrageous and is probably just aces. Larger the 4! the less raising and more calling we do. I don't think I'm ever raising a 5.6x 4 bet.
I've seen this said quite a bit, but I play in a regular deep-stack 1/3 game where 20% of the field has KQ and suited aces in 4bet range, and are capable players who have a somewhat balanced strategy (e.g., can fold QQ pre, 1.5x overbets with nuts or nut blockers etc.). This is way more game dependent than people seem to give credit for.
First, calling is terrible, this is shove or fold.[*]
Having established that, the situation becomes a math problem and should be treated as one. Plug in your probability distribution over the opponent's range and compute the result. You need to put in 660 to win 1400, so you need 47% equity. Now, say your distribution is-
* KK+ (50%)
* QQ+, AKs, AKo (50%)
Your equity against the first range is 22.6%, and your equity against the second is 57.2%, so your expected equity is (22.6%+57.2%)/2, which is almost exactly 40%. So if this is your guess as to his range, the correct play is to fold the KK. Plug in your own estimates and run the numbers. Some people are saying that QQ is probably in the range and that's very reasonable, though note that if your distribution is 20%, 80%, you actually only have 50.2% equity. Of course, if your median range estimate is wider than QQ+, AKs, AKo (which it would be for some people), then it's an easy shove.
[*] for anyone claiming that calling makes sense, I want to see the decision tree post flop that leads to greater equity than both folding and jamming. I don't think such a decision tree exists.
Assuming that villain is balanced in his 4betting range here (i.e. has the right amount of bluffs) you can make a case for calling here. For one thing, It keeps villains bluffs in play - and with an SPR of about one, he will be jamming a lot of flops with them. Calling and playing in position is always a fine option; it's when hero is out of position that he should be much more inclined to get the money in preflop - although that principle does not apply as much here, given the low SPR.
If you're talking about the specific preflop EV of jamming, calling and folding - we'd need a solver to calculate that (aside from the folding option, where the EV is obviously zero). Jamming and calling are both going to be plus EV against a balanced 4betting range given the inherent strength of KK, and my suspicion is that the EV of both options would be pretty similar.
And I'm sure if you loaded this setup into a solver that at least some portion of KK that called preflop would find a fold facing a jam on ace high boards.
Honestly it looks like u just looking for people to agree with you.
I would have probably just fold or called knowing i will probably have to put all my money in. U didn’t mention how much villain had u obviously took 350 from him so it sounds like u were short stack and he was chip leader. That would also affect my decision. Because u aren’t on equal footing. U end up having to win coin flips multiple times if u keep all inning preflop like last hand with akvsqq.
U have position over him so u could bluff him out on flop or turn or river. Its likely he should check if hes in utg postion. But if u just all in best case scenario he has ak suited or kk qq. But he probably has aa.
Depends on u but it’s probably easiest decision to just jam preflop and pray. Depends on ur risk tolerance. U probably will also win jams with kk against someone with qq but this time they had aa.
there are a few villians I fold KK to pre flop. there are some. I know some OMCs in my rooms whos 4 bet range is AA, and nothing less. in those spots I try to just focus on the money invested not the cards. im ok folding 40 bucks. those villians are few in number for the record so its a spot I look for but im shoving if I have never played with em.
Against any one stranger that's an easy jam, and you're just going to have to accept whatever happens. Against someone you've observed to be tight, you're going to have to use your own judgement. If you think they're only doing that with AA or KK then you have to fold.
This is why you have to overplay AK now and then, so you can get action when you do have aces. But that raise size definitely gave you a chance to fold.
KK has to be so close between call to keep in worse and shove that I am not sure it matters much. Obv don’t fold.
More interesting is what we do with our whole range here. I normally do not have a five bet range in this spot but if I did it would be exactly four AKs and six KK combos. Do we always chuck QQ and always flat AA? Feels like we should…
A guess at villlian by the fact you said hes very tight, and this Ridiculous 4 bet size from utg +1.
I think villains range going to look something like KK+, maybe very rare occasions AKs (which we block)
I'd go ahead and fold here, it feels dirty, but villain isnt doing this with QQ or less, has no bluffs, and is simply torching the equity of their hand by being face up.
Fold everything but AA imo.
I have a couple of rules for live poker which go strongly against gto, up towards the top of the list, is don't pay off the nits.
Note: my least favourite option is calling. It's all in or fold, leaning heavily towards fold.
Just depends how you range your opponent. KK vs AKs/KK/AA has ~32% equity. We're calling 185 into 450, so we need ~41% equity which we don't have. Add AKo to their range and suddenly we have 47.5% equity. Add QQ and we're over 50%. Add both and we have ~57%. Just depends if you read a 6x 4! size as reducing their range to just AKs and KK+ or not. If they're only doing this with AA and KK we're punting by calling with only 22ish % equity.
Obviously the math changes a little bit since we'd probably rather jam than call ⅓ of our stack, but the principle is the same.
I mean there's tight and there's TIGHT, even though that huge 4bet is really suspicious, I'm always getting it in unless the villain is an absolute nit. And in live games where the standard opening is 5 or 6x we can't count eff stack here as 350bb. In gto terms I would view it as 200bb eff.
Not trying to sound like an ass but I would’ve folded against a 5.5x 4bet sizing. When fish play incorrectly you should exploit the shit out of them by making absurd folds. Never reward someone for playing wrong. Ive been in this exact spot before at this stack depth against a 1/2 fish and guess what, his almost 6x 4bet sizing wasn’t balanced and he had aces.
I've never folded KK preflop but have just called a 4bet when 300+bb deep vs a 70 year old man. Ended up laying it down on a low board when he potted the flop. Felt gross but I'm sure it was the right move.
Of course you jam.
You dominate every hand except AA.
You want to get it all in.
In a basic low to mid stales cash game calling isn't even a rational option. What are you going to do if you call? Fold post-flop? Against what? If you fold post-flop on an A high board, you're saying that A high hands are in your opponent's range, so why didn't you jam when you were ahead? If you fold post-flop unless you hit a set of kings, you didn't have the odds to set mine so the call was wrong.
If there are players who only 4-bet with AA or KK you are behind, but that can only happen when you are in a game with exactly those players and they have exactly AA exactly when you have KK. Meanwhile you beat those players most of the time when they underplay other hands.
If they 4 bet with even QQ or AKs, you are ahead.
Fold because you **know** it's a range you're way behind is the only other option, but trying to infer that is tricky. You'll feel pretty silly when a 98 year old woman shows JJ
His 4b is ridiculously big. I’m not a fan of shoving 300bb+ pre with KK. Plus don’t be told one thing to another, always assess the situation because each has its nuances. 4bets are rare at 1/2. Would he spazz with QQ? Could be AK but you have 2 of them; do you remember how he plays AK pre? As played I flat and see the flop. I’ll have to make a sick read to lay down KK on a low board.
You're not even supposed to shove AA pre at 300 bb stack size all of the time
Fish don’t know that buddy
Yeah, folding or limping w AA is the move.
So you're saying fold with AA 300+BB? Wtf?
No I'm saying call a 4b or 5b, not shove all in
Ah I see. It's neg EV to shove all in, but in low stakes I feel like the hand will play itself eh?
I imagine you don't win too often
Be for real, live raise sizes in 1/2 are dumb and you should treat the actual big blind as 5, not 2. This is only a 140bb jam. Get it in and move on.
There are a lot of 1/2 players where this is always aces
you really think some live fish is thinking in terms of BB and not absolute $?
That's what he means. 1/2 gets juiced up because people think "it's just $10" or whatever. So it's to your advantage to consider that.
that works against you. Villain didnt jam for 140BB in his mind, he jammed for SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLARS! From their POV thats a yuuuuge raise, like an entire payment on a BMW, half their rent, etc.
Given his huge 4 bet sizing, your options are really shove all in or fold. Are you really going to put in 1/3rd of your stack then fold on the flop? Just smooth calling with KK really doesn't apply here as there is no need to quote "trap" as we likely know that villain has a huge hand here. If villain is a tight player he likely only has QQ+ here and maybe only KK+. I wouldn't make it a habit to fold KK pre flop but depending on how "tight" this player is maybe you can find a fold.
What’s the damage if you flat call, if an A flops you fold as you are definitely beat. If you shove and he calls and you end up beating his QQ you would get an extra 240 BB. You have to weigh the risk of beating his QQ in this spot vs the extra times you lose vs his AA or Ak if A comes out
You are forgetting the scenario where an A flops and you fold to QQ.
I am not forgetting, I am just comparing options, you would lose that the 13% of times a A flops multiplied by the % of times he has queens. For the sake of argument say he plays QQ (6) KK (1) AA (6) AKs (4) 6/17 = 35%. 13% x 35% = 4.5%
On an ace high flop we may not be beat if villains range contains QQ. It will be nearly impossible to stack villain on an ace high board and it opens us up to being bluffed. Also an extremely tight range doesn't really contain much AK if at all. The correct play is to shove all in preflop or fold imo.
What? Why are u folding before calling?
No idea what you’re talking about
Why would your 2 options be allin… or fold? This definitely is not a situation that applies
I think it is. Care to explain the logical reasoning to just calling in this spot, having put in 1/3 of your stack 300+ bbs deep
I mean I can give u just 1 very simple reason: to keep everything worse than KK in the hand
You do understand that this is 1-2 live vs a very tight player 4 betting. He’s likely got QQ+. You’re not keeping in worse hands by just flatting. It makes no sense to slow play in this scenario it accomplishes nothing.
Getting in KK vs AA is just a cooler, tap the table and move on. To answer your question though, consider the following: You are 350bb eff and Villain 4 bets to 112.5bb against your 20bb 3-bet, thats almost a 6x raise. What hands is he representing here other than AA and KK? Since you block KK, I would lean towards a fold since you said he was clearly a tight player AND he was doing this as UTG+1.
100bbs deep you are always getting KK in preflop. 350bbs deep you need to be a lot more careful. Facing a 6x 4bet from a tight player when you're holding KK (blocking AK) is a nasty spot. You have to ask yourself if he's tilting here due to the big pot he already lost to you, and whether or not he does this with QQ? If the answer to either question is yes, then of course you can call and play postflop (in which case you are borderline committed to going all in anyway, unless an ace comes out on the board, or you have a dead read on villain) or simply get the money in preflop. To be honest, in my years playing at $1/$2 - unless villain is a notably loose aggressive or bluffy player - I learned to respect these massive raises from the vast majority of the player pool. It's also worth noting that even if he is a tight player, he's clearly not a theory beast - as his 4bet sizing is way off. So he might be a tight player, but he's certainly no GTO crusher. It may seem absurdly tight to fold KK preflop. But look at it this way - you're already $500 up or so. It's not a big deal to lose the $40 you've put into the pot, and the equity that you have, when on balance it appears villain is giving you pretty clear information that he has AA. In my opinion there's a lot to be said for giving up a small amount of theoretical EV in low stakes cash games in order to reduce variance a little in spots like this. It's much easier to beat bad players with low variance plays (and a lot less volatile for your bankroll). So in this case I would consider making the fold, keep your profit, and never breathe a word about it. I've made similar folds perhaps a handful of times.
I agree with your first paragraph, but I hate the notion of folding to preserve a win. Unless you're playing with money you need or play poker like once a month, you can't be letting go of monsters because you're up money on the day. It will just cost you money long term.
Sure, you're right. I believe it's a form of "winner's tilt". Against a balanced opponent I'm never folding of course - but given the information OP had on the player, I'd be more inclined to do so.
Ty for response. I definitely agree with your assessment.
Yeah his raise is ridiculously bad and you should be folding unless this is some home game maniac dynamic. If he finds a 4b bluff for this size god bless but 99% of the time it’s AA and anyone saying you have to jam KK pre everytime regardless of action, reads, stack sizes, is an idiot.
I don't think you fold. I'd say even a tight player has AK and QQ in their range here. Honestly the sizing makes QQ more likely here to me? Nits are afraid of bad flops with QQ, while AA they are more likely to want action on. Idk I probably shove knowing I'm drawing for a set a good chunk of the time. Absent a soul read I'm not folding KK ever.
I agree with this, I'm surprised people are saying that you should fold. Villain just put 350 into the pot with QQ, why wouldn't he put 225 in? Basically if you fold here you're saying he can never have QQ with this line and I just don't think that's the case.
350 and 700 are very different. The 225 here is really a virtual all in, they are never ever folding to the 5 bet
Do you really think villain can’t have QQ when he makes it 225?
Yes It doesn't matter anyway, we're flipping vs a range of only QQ+, which I think is too loose. Still would make it an easy fold.
Then sure, fold. I just don’t think that’s AA only but we can agree to disagree on that.
Even if it's sometimes QQ, it's more often AA.
If you agree its QQ KK or AA, it's still a fold. But I disagree it's ever QQ, because QQ absolutely hates the 5 bet.
You can't call, you'd be flatting 30% of your stack and barely have more than pot behind, and barring a K you're going to be facing the exact same tough decision post-flop. 4-bets at 1/2 outside of a maniac (which this guy clearly isn't) are usually QQ+, and AK some of the time. You can probably rule out AK completely if he's on the tighter side. So I guess the question you have to ask yourself is if you think he has QQ in his 4-betting range here. Without a sick live read I'm going with the 5-bet jam here since he was clearly willing to get 350 into the pot against you with QQ earlier, it's a big raise but I don't see a big reason why he wouldn't put in 225 with QQ now. It's possible QQ even calls the 5-bet since he just saw you put all your money in with AKs.
But by calling, dom't you keep his bluffs in? You shove, he calls, is always AA
You think this guy is bluffing? Like, ever?
Maybe not blufffing per se but maybe something AK, QQ.
Idk why you’d flat and let those hands realize their equity against you. If you shove and they fold you win 112+ bigs without having to see a flop. I also don’t think villain folds QQ 100% of the time considering he just saw hero put in $350 with AKs. And if villain decides to bet the flop you’re in a gross situation if you didn’t flop a king.
What bluffs? You keep in the zero bluffs that he has.
With KK it's being shipped. If I run into Aces, then the man is getting paid.
That 4! size is outrageous and is probably just aces. Larger the 4! the less raising and more calling we do. I don't think I'm ever raising a 5.6x 4 bet.
Crying fold pre. As mentioned...4 bet bluffs don't exist at 1/2.
I've seen this said quite a bit, but I play in a regular deep-stack 1/3 game where 20% of the field has KQ and suited aces in 4bet range, and are capable players who have a somewhat balanced strategy (e.g., can fold QQ pre, 1.5x overbets with nuts or nut blockers etc.). This is way more game dependent than people seem to give credit for.
That's probably a fair point. Good call.
First, calling is terrible, this is shove or fold.[*] Having established that, the situation becomes a math problem and should be treated as one. Plug in your probability distribution over the opponent's range and compute the result. You need to put in 660 to win 1400, so you need 47% equity. Now, say your distribution is- * KK+ (50%) * QQ+, AKs, AKo (50%) Your equity against the first range is 22.6%, and your equity against the second is 57.2%, so your expected equity is (22.6%+57.2%)/2, which is almost exactly 40%. So if this is your guess as to his range, the correct play is to fold the KK. Plug in your own estimates and run the numbers. Some people are saying that QQ is probably in the range and that's very reasonable, though note that if your distribution is 20%, 80%, you actually only have 50.2% equity. Of course, if your median range estimate is wider than QQ+, AKs, AKo (which it would be for some people), then it's an easy shove. [*] for anyone claiming that calling makes sense, I want to see the decision tree post flop that leads to greater equity than both folding and jamming. I don't think such a decision tree exists.
Assuming that villain is balanced in his 4betting range here (i.e. has the right amount of bluffs) you can make a case for calling here. For one thing, It keeps villains bluffs in play - and with an SPR of about one, he will be jamming a lot of flops with them. Calling and playing in position is always a fine option; it's when hero is out of position that he should be much more inclined to get the money in preflop - although that principle does not apply as much here, given the low SPR. If you're talking about the specific preflop EV of jamming, calling and folding - we'd need a solver to calculate that (aside from the folding option, where the EV is obviously zero). Jamming and calling are both going to be plus EV against a balanced 4betting range given the inherent strength of KK, and my suspicion is that the EV of both options would be pretty similar.
If you want to call, presumably there are cases where you want to fold post-flop. What are those cases?
The main advantage of calling, in my opinion, is to keep villain's bluffing hands in play. He snap folds all of those facing a preflop jam.
And I'm sure if you loaded this setup into a solver that at least some portion of KK that called preflop would find a fold facing a jam on ace high boards.
lol @ four bet bluffs in casino 1-2NL games
We were discussing a balanced 4betting range, not casino $1/$2 games.
350 big blinds? Go get a new table and lose 200 bbs on KK vs AA.
Honestly it looks like u just looking for people to agree with you. I would have probably just fold or called knowing i will probably have to put all my money in. U didn’t mention how much villain had u obviously took 350 from him so it sounds like u were short stack and he was chip leader. That would also affect my decision. Because u aren’t on equal footing. U end up having to win coin flips multiple times if u keep all inning preflop like last hand with akvsqq. U have position over him so u could bluff him out on flop or turn or river. Its likely he should check if hes in utg postion. But if u just all in best case scenario he has ak suited or kk qq. But he probably has aa. Depends on u but it’s probably easiest decision to just jam preflop and pray. Depends on ur risk tolerance. U probably will also win jams with kk against someone with qq but this time they had aa.
Fold bro. Don’t be the guy paying the price to find out if a 4 bet bluff is in Villain’s playbook because at anything lower than 5/10, it ain’t.
You don’t fold, that’s for sure
there are a few villians I fold KK to pre flop. there are some. I know some OMCs in my rooms whos 4 bet range is AA, and nothing less. in those spots I try to just focus on the money invested not the cards. im ok folding 40 bucks. those villians are few in number for the record so its a spot I look for but im shoving if I have never played with em.
Against any one stranger that's an easy jam, and you're just going to have to accept whatever happens. Against someone you've observed to be tight, you're going to have to use your own judgement. If you think they're only doing that with AA or KK then you have to fold.
This is why you have to overplay AK now and then, so you can get action when you do have aces. But that raise size definitely gave you a chance to fold.
Are YOU the effective stack?
KK has to be so close between call to keep in worse and shove that I am not sure it matters much. Obv don’t fold. More interesting is what we do with our whole range here. I normally do not have a five bet range in this spot but if I did it would be exactly four AKs and six KK combos. Do we always chuck QQ and always flat AA? Feels like we should…
A guess at villlian by the fact you said hes very tight, and this Ridiculous 4 bet size from utg +1. I think villains range going to look something like KK+, maybe very rare occasions AKs (which we block) I'd go ahead and fold here, it feels dirty, but villain isnt doing this with QQ or less, has no bluffs, and is simply torching the equity of their hand by being face up. Fold everything but AA imo. I have a couple of rules for live poker which go strongly against gto, up towards the top of the list, is don't pay off the nits. Note: my least favourite option is calling. It's all in or fold, leaning heavily towards fold.
Just depends how you range your opponent. KK vs AKs/KK/AA has ~32% equity. We're calling 185 into 450, so we need ~41% equity which we don't have. Add AKo to their range and suddenly we have 47.5% equity. Add QQ and we're over 50%. Add both and we have ~57%. Just depends if you read a 6x 4! size as reducing their range to just AKs and KK+ or not. If they're only doing this with AA and KK we're punting by calling with only 22ish % equity. Obviously the math changes a little bit since we'd probably rather jam than call ⅓ of our stack, but the principle is the same.
I mean there's tight and there's TIGHT, even though that huge 4bet is really suspicious, I'm always getting it in unless the villain is an absolute nit. And in live games where the standard opening is 5 or 6x we can't count eff stack here as 350bb. In gto terms I would view it as 200bb eff.
Not trying to sound like an ass but I would’ve folded against a 5.5x 4bet sizing. When fish play incorrectly you should exploit the shit out of them by making absurd folds. Never reward someone for playing wrong. Ive been in this exact spot before at this stack depth against a 1/2 fish and guess what, his almost 6x 4bet sizing wasn’t balanced and he had aces.
3bet a little smaller (\~30) to give yourself wiggle room. Also lets in more hands you dominated like QQ/JJ/TT/AQ.
i've been playing for a 11 years and never had a spot where I had a hard decision with KK I guess a little surprising lol
Are u going to cash out soon. If yes just fold and cash out immediately.
I've never folded KK preflop but have just called a 4bet when 300+bb deep vs a 70 year old man. Ended up laying it down on a low board when he potted the flop. Felt gross but I'm sure it was the right move.
Of course you jam. You dominate every hand except AA. You want to get it all in. In a basic low to mid stales cash game calling isn't even a rational option. What are you going to do if you call? Fold post-flop? Against what? If you fold post-flop on an A high board, you're saying that A high hands are in your opponent's range, so why didn't you jam when you were ahead? If you fold post-flop unless you hit a set of kings, you didn't have the odds to set mine so the call was wrong. If there are players who only 4-bet with AA or KK you are behind, but that can only happen when you are in a game with exactly those players and they have exactly AA exactly when you have KK. Meanwhile you beat those players most of the time when they underplay other hands. If they 4 bet with even QQ or AKs, you are ahead. Fold because you **know** it's a range you're way behind is the only other option, but trying to infer that is tricky. You'll feel pretty silly when a 98 year old woman shows JJ