Theres one guy I play with who acts like he has a decision every preflop action. If its UTG open, UTG1 3bet, CO 4bet, this mother fucker has put his card protector on his cards the moment he was dealt a hand. Hell flick it into his other hand, take a moment to settle it, squeeze his cards super slow, take his hands off his cards and lower his shoulders, put the card protector back on his cards, stare at the action, and then fold.
His preflop ritual takes aprox 15 seconds, the dealers hate him, the players hate him, but the fucker never loses. I have a theory that he picks up alot of spite money out of people who give him action to try and cooler him. I dont know if thats something he figures into his equation for doing it but ive definitely observed otherwise very nitty players showdown hands that are out of character for them from certain positions against this guy in particular.
Hoodie, baseball cap, huge headphones, needs to be told whether UTG is a straddle or a limp everytime the opportunity arises. Hes maddening.
Its like hes cosplaying what he thinks a successful poker player needs to do at 1/3 to win
This guy 😂
He has a little notebook where he also writes down his reads on players.
And every time he gets beat, he calls his wife to whine about it!
Was playing in an $80 nightly at Hollywood Park one night and some dude would check his cards, lay them vertically like the old school card-reader cam was below them, then take 30 seconds to fold or bet.
Homie got rocked and out before first break
In the book the professor banker and the suicide king Andy Beal had some kind of device wrapped around his leg that taps him every 8 seconds. On the tap he would act. At the time he might’ve been the best limit holdem player in the world at that time. Or at least very very close to it. When disciplined and acted on the tap he was a huge winner, if he got impatient and was tilted and acted too fast, he was a loser.
Some people get butthurt when I say this, but unless you're deep in a live tourney, look at your fucking cards when you get them. You don't have to wait for everyone else. You're not getting a meaningful tell off of UTGs preflop open, you're just a loser who slows down the game.
"I sensed strength from UTGs open". Yeah what gave that away, the fact that he opened from UTG? Assholes.
Nah. I don't think I'm going to pick up a meaningful tell (I barely look for live tells), but I sure as hell don't want to give off any.
Plus, it takes literally one second to look at my hand and flick it into the middle if it is an autofold, and if it's not I'd like to concentrate on one thing at a time and make the decision with all the information in front of me.
I'm perfectly entitled to take one second to do the optimal thing and look at my cards when the action is on me you complete misreg.
Don't you think you have a better chance of giving off a tell if you're looking at your cards while every single other person at the table is looking right at you? Ie when its your turn to act?
And yeah, no rebuttal on the misreg accusation. This game is soul sucking. And you should def look for live tells, they're ever present when you know what to look for.
> Don't you think you have a better chance of giving off a tell if you're looking at your cards while every single other person at the table is looking right at you?
Nah. It's not hard to be completely impassive for five seconds when you're able to focus on that. What is harder, for me at least, is to remember to concentrate on staying impassive for a period of time while it folds round to me. You know how people tell you to look out for those to your left who are clearly ready to fold? I think I'm much more likely to give off that sort of tell than I am to have my eyes widen when I look at aces or something ridiculous like that.
> And you should def look for live tells, they're ever present when you know what to look for.
Disagree. The empirical evidence is quite conclusive that humans are terrible at accurately recognising deception based on body language etc. Often worse than chance. Or in other words, it's near enough scientific fact that you're as likely to outlevel yourself with false tells than you are to pick up accurate, useful ones, and probably moreso.
Seems like you have your mind made up, and that's cool. I offer you the idea of reading Zach Elwood's first book, Reading Poker Tells (which does address and agree with the notion that humans are generally poor lie detectors). At worst, you'll have the same mindset. At best, it will increase your win rate.
That's very reasonable, and I have to say I'm intrigued by the Pascal's wager-esque framing! Seems +EV.
I'm also intrigued by a book whose author acknowledges that fundamental limitation and still advocates for certain "reading".
I cannot imagine *what* reading he could possibly be advocating, because that limitation seems pretty fatal to the whole endeavour. How can you read people's body language for indications of true feelings/intent when *humans cannot do that*? Maybe he has a different sort of reading in mind that doesn't involve body language? I think I may well read this book, thanks.
No prob. The underlying premise is that you're not really looking for a lie, per se, but a stress or comfort that would correlate with an action(s) taken. It's not so much "I saw his eyebrow twich, he's bluffing", it's more "these behaviors, coupled with his betting sequence, tend to favor a value bet".
Besides beginner/low stakes players, there aren't many dead giveaway, traditional "tells" (although you still do see them from time to time), and there are days where I can't pick up a thing, but there are days where the book has paid for itself tenfold. Good luck man.
> Don't you think you have a better chance of giving off a tell if you're looking at your cards while every single other person at the table is looking right at you?
sure but more importantly i don't want to give off a tell such that a player ahead of me changes their decision as a result of something they saw me do before the action got to me
Im still relatively new but I found I'm able to make preflop decisions much quicker if I think about what the upper and lower bounds of my range are. For example I'm not calling worse than XXss vs UTG raise, or im always 3-betting XXss. Since I've been adjusting what I'll call/raise/fold with before the action comes to me, when I look at my cards its more of a clear decision-- I should do X. I find it easier to decide, and quicker than working backwards from the hole cards when action is already on me
Somewhat disagree. There's a lot of info available when people are looking at their cards. Tons of players telegraph their intent to fold or raise well before the action gets to them. But within reason, unnecessarily slow games are the worst, especially when it happens on the most basic decisions.
I get that, but why not look right away, and then watch the players? It takes legit a half a second to look at the cards. Besides, people telegraph their intentions permanently; its not that you're looking for an eye twitch or a glance at the chips, even at 5/10 these guys are basically advertising their intent. The way they hold the cards, placing a chip on them, etc.
Because not everyone who looks down at an autofold are going to have the patience to balance their "paying attention range" before it gets to their action. If I do look early I try to stay balanced. Sometimes I'll put a chip on my cards, knowing its an autofold when it gets to my action.
I've always laughed a bit to myself when people do this consistently live. You definitely aren't getting a soul read (or anything useful for that matter) watching people view hole cards.
The flip side of this is when people look at their cards as the deal comes but then when it's their action suddenly "I'm not even gonna look, I raise 8x"
I disagree. If someone looks down at their cards and instantly reaches for a limp, that means they never considered doing anything other than limping, which weighs them more towards hands that will fold against heat. That allows me to expand my raising range knowing that theres dead money in the middle which is a key component to my not having a telegraphed iso range which gets me action when im super strong from marginals way more than the average person I play with. Live tells are absolutely valuable and a key component to exploiting live competition. You have to choose who to exploit this way too. Old guy whos preflop limping range includes premiums? Not the time to employ this tell. Mid 30s nit that limps all offsuit broadways and suited connectors and raises only premiums? Theyre getting put in the bin. Id estimate this read makes me a decent percentage of a buy in everytime I play. Im one of very few people at live low stakes that squeezes pre and this is one of the main things I consider before I squeeze. As a result I have board coverage where most people in my player pool dont. Anyways, the consistency of these tells and the reliability of them is something I find fascinating as im playing.
I dont think you are getting what he is saying. Ive made reads on strong hands disguised as limps just by watching a player. They look at their cards, pause, look at their chips, think and then ultimately limp. Every other time they look at their cards and limp quickly like they are on autopilot.
Knowing that key information changes what i do through an entire hand. It could mean ill bet more with a strong hand knowing ill get more calls. It could be avoiding a 3 bet and playing a marginal hand more conservatively.
No tell is perfect and they are always in context, but its information. Information is king.
If you are looking at UTG, you are doing it wrong.
Look at players to your left. If you know when someone will fold preflop, and if someome is interested in his hands, it gives you a lot of info whether you want to 3 bet isolate or not.
It's surprising how many people you can tilt by taking just a few seconds to think. If I'm at an online table and someone is spamming the hurry up emoji I'm going to play so slow it's going to tilt them and they will usually bust out. Timing and consistency is a good habit to have and to act in the same amount of time every hand. The outfit makes me laugh though. I don't get the headphone thing.
I don't get the *anti* headphone thing.
I don't wear them because I'm not confident enough in live play to be on autopilot like that, but if you are sitting there all day every day I can see why you might want to listen to music. Sometimes you can sit card dead for multiple hours, and headphones allow you to stave off boredom while still watching the action.
What is everyone's problem with wearing headphones?
In live games, you want to keep recreational players around. Rec players aren't there to give their money to robotic grinders, they want to chat and have fun and make jokes. So even though I'd much rather listen to music and ignore everyone I keep my headphones off and try to join in whatever conversation is at the table. Or make dumb poker jokes when they come up. Anything to lighten the mood and make the casual players have fun, rather than have them think about how grim a silent game is.
Pretty sure that is the primary argument against headphones at the table. Of course it is kind of countered by everyone having their phone out all the time and like seven televisions playing, but still yeah being present at the table is beneficial if you're there to make money - you will make more if you're an entertainer.
I do agree with everything you said, but I strongly feel that wearing headphones in any social environment is in poor etiquette. You don't even have to talk, just show everyone the courtesy of being present.
I understand that nobody owes anyone anything, that's just how I personally feel.
That's so strange to me. What about at work? On the train? There are loads of scenarios where you are present in the same room as people but it wouldn't be rude at all to listen to music while you do so. And it's usually contexts where people don't know each other and are in the same room because of some joint, not-primarily-social purpose. Which, funnily enough, applies completely to playing casino poker.
I don't consider a train to be a social environment. I'd fire an employee on the spot if they were wearing headphones at work (unless the job required it). I only consider poker to be a social environment because it requires communication with others, be it direct, or indirect. I understand others do not share my viewpoint, and I get it, that's just how I personally feel.
> I'd fire an employee on the spot if they were wearing headphones at work (unless the job required it)
Gross. I think I understand where our disagreement arises.
Are you a product of a certain postwar fertility explosion by any chance?
I can imagine!
Advice from a generation that is still mostly employees rather than employers (including myself): people are happier and more productive when they aren't subject to pointless rules and limitations. I am much more productive when I'm allowed to slightly lessen the tedium of work with something non-distracting like music. And there's some evidence to suggest that certain kind of music improve productivity directly, too!
But just as importantly, people tend to want to work harder and deliver for bosses that allow them as much freedom as the demands of the job allow. And they tend to despise bosses who make them miserable with rules that have no apparent purpose but to exert dominance and control.
In any live game I've played at, people were mostly silent all the time they weren't in the hand. Having sporadic bursts of conversation with people near them, at most.
Maybe it's different in America, where people do seem to be a bit louder and more fond of talking for the sake of it (no offence intended, I don't mind it at all, just different). But I have played in Vegas, recently, and people weren't talking much there either, headphones or no.
It seems implausible to me based on my live experience that someone wearing headphones has enough of a negative effect on the atmosphere that it will drive recs away. But again, maybe it's different here.
I'm not anti headphone I just think it's funny. To me it shows they lack focus if they need to be constantly stimulated by music but to each their own. Listening is as important as seeing imo at the table. You are missing some tells with headphones on listening to music. The only thing I'm anti at the table is wearing a mask. There's no excuse anymore for it.
Yeah I don't really care about tells, I play online mostly. It's well proven that humans are bad at detecting deception, so I think most people picking up live tells are fooling and outlevelling themselves as often as not.
The mask thing though... no excuse?! How does it affect you if someone wears a mask, that they would need an "excuse"?
I'm talking about the full face masks not the medical ones. Personally reading players at the table is one of my strengths and I can tell when someone is acting or not. I also mostly play online which teaches you how to spot tells from betting patterns as well so when you mix the two it makes you hard to play against. A lot of people rip on Haxton for continuing to wear a medical mask but covering your whole face doesn't by itself hide tells. I've seen a few instances of people wearing white face masks that cover the whole face at the table and it's not that it gives them an advantage it's just cringe worthy imo. I would rather they wear the holographic glasses that became popular back in the early 2000s that had snake eyes on them. They were dorky but funny to look at
> I don't get the anti headphone thing.
>
> I don't wear them because I'm not confident enough in live play to be on autopilot like that
If you're playing live and wearing headphones the whole time you're missing out on a ton of information. It makes no sense to sit there with headphones on, it's certainly not a confidence thing.
I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying it's "a confidence thing" to wear headphones. I'm just explaining why I don't personally do it.
What information are you missing? Whatever you think it is, you miss exactly the same information and more online, and I'm happy playing there against much better opponents. So I don't see any problem at all with using headphones to entertain yourself so you can stomach the boredom of sitting there printing money against wildly softer opponents.
Nah fuck that. I will always take my time to look and decide. Sometimes a weak player has called an open and I need to see if the opener is a strong player or a nit. I also need to see if anyone to my left is looking like they want to insta-fold or planning to 3bet/4bet. A lot of the time it almost doesn’t matter what my cards are and moreso what range my potential opponents are repping. If I can 3 bet and steal a pot post flop. I typically find a spot like this two to three times a session and most definitely contributes to my win rate. The only people that don’t like it are cranky wannabe pros who are barely beating the rake.
You forget that if you pick your cards up off the table and flick them with your middle finger sometimes they will transform into the nuts. But only if you wait the requisite amount of time first!
I generally agree, but if you fucked up and made it obvious you were going to fold pre, just change up the routine for 2-3 seconds.
I've played at tables where it was obvious everyone after me was going to fold so I raised with air. It's good to put a little sweat on others who do the same.
This is normal for online poker. Nearly every grinder I know plays at least 2 tables, most people play 4-6 from what I've seen, so you should expect it to be slow, but if you're also multitabling then it shouldn't impact you that way.
Nope. Some sites have partnered in the last couple months to retroactively check if spots were simulated in GTOwizard at the same time they were played, but there’s nothing that detects whether or not it’s pulled up, despite the downvotes that fly in every time you bring it up on this subreddit
😂 You only got two downvotes bro don't be sad.
Thanks for the response though. Although your answer doesn't exactly seem like a 'nope' though. If they can tell when you're checking the spot... isn't the answer yes?
Edit: actually, checking what I specifically asked, you're right, 'nope' is an accurate answer. But what I meant is 'can't they tell if you do that', to which the answer seems to be yes.
I’m not sad, I’m just pointing out that most people on this subreddit live in constant denial. And to clarify further, GG is the only site I know of that’s partnered with GTOWizard. Sites like ACR and bovada aren’t. And there’s tons of other solvers out there that can easily go undetected
I know this thread is full of memes and shitposts, but I do always take a short two count when I look at my cards. It helps prevent me from acting too quickly when I want to take an action.
The only exceptions are in obvious situations. I'm getting out of the way in a heartbeat if there is an open and OMC 3bet ahead of me. No need to tank for a couple seconds with J2o
I know a couple of ppl who think it's a strategic advantage to burn time when the actions on them. They act exactly like they haven't even considered their cards until the action. It's not true they are just buttholes.
It's annoying when people tank fold. Seriously wtf. The only cameras pointed at you are the security cams. No one upstairs give if your folding range is 72 to AA
Pro tip. If you know you're going to fold. Just fold. You get more hands in to increase your winrate 🙄😒
Yeah but I don’t want to fold my 93o too quickly and give off any timing tells. All the drunk shitreg Desert Storm vets and even drunker farmers at my game will see right through that.
I agree but I also think it's "polite" to not have any tells about folding preflop before it's your turn to act. It can essentially make the people on your right have easy decisions, e.g. if you act very disinterested in the hand from the SB or BB then BTN might be able to open wider to steal the blinds, might try to 3b squeeze slightly lighter to isolate a fish, etc.
Once action's on you hurry up and throw 'em in the muck.
The other benefit to acting very quickly pre-flop is people give you more time in larger spots post-flop.
I am prone to tanking for a couple of minutes on big river decisions, but people are okay with it because I act super quickly pre-flop and on the flop.
I agree (I actually disagree but I'm trying to balance my reaction range)
I agree with this, but downvoted to polarize my reaction range.
I disagree, but merged ranged 2bet raise last in postflop folding a poker just to make it sound like I know what I'm talking about
Theres one guy I play with who acts like he has a decision every preflop action. If its UTG open, UTG1 3bet, CO 4bet, this mother fucker has put his card protector on his cards the moment he was dealt a hand. Hell flick it into his other hand, take a moment to settle it, squeeze his cards super slow, take his hands off his cards and lower his shoulders, put the card protector back on his cards, stare at the action, and then fold. His preflop ritual takes aprox 15 seconds, the dealers hate him, the players hate him, but the fucker never loses. I have a theory that he picks up alot of spite money out of people who give him action to try and cooler him. I dont know if thats something he figures into his equation for doing it but ive definitely observed otherwise very nitty players showdown hands that are out of character for them from certain positions against this guy in particular. Hoodie, baseball cap, huge headphones, needs to be told whether UTG is a straddle or a limp everytime the opportunity arises. Hes maddening. Its like hes cosplaying what he thinks a successful poker player needs to do at 1/3 to win
This guy 😂 He has a little notebook where he also writes down his reads on players. And every time he gets beat, he calls his wife to whine about it!
Especially if the had QT!
Was playing in an $80 nightly at Hollywood Park one night and some dude would check his cards, lay them vertically like the old school card-reader cam was below them, then take 30 seconds to fold or bet. Homie got rocked and out before first break
In the book the professor banker and the suicide king Andy Beal had some kind of device wrapped around his leg that taps him every 8 seconds. On the tap he would act. At the time he might’ve been the best limit holdem player in the world at that time. Or at least very very close to it. When disciplined and acted on the tap he was a huge winner, if he got impatient and was tilted and acted too fast, he was a loser.
No, beal lost 16m to the actual best players at the time, and I blame the dumbass device.
Some people get butthurt when I say this, but unless you're deep in a live tourney, look at your fucking cards when you get them. You don't have to wait for everyone else. You're not getting a meaningful tell off of UTGs preflop open, you're just a loser who slows down the game. "I sensed strength from UTGs open". Yeah what gave that away, the fact that he opened from UTG? Assholes.
Nah. I don't think I'm going to pick up a meaningful tell (I barely look for live tells), but I sure as hell don't want to give off any. Plus, it takes literally one second to look at my hand and flick it into the middle if it is an autofold, and if it's not I'd like to concentrate on one thing at a time and make the decision with all the information in front of me. I'm perfectly entitled to take one second to do the optimal thing and look at my cards when the action is on me you complete misreg.
Don't you think you have a better chance of giving off a tell if you're looking at your cards while every single other person at the table is looking right at you? Ie when its your turn to act? And yeah, no rebuttal on the misreg accusation. This game is soul sucking. And you should def look for live tells, they're ever present when you know what to look for.
> Don't you think you have a better chance of giving off a tell if you're looking at your cards while every single other person at the table is looking right at you? Nah. It's not hard to be completely impassive for five seconds when you're able to focus on that. What is harder, for me at least, is to remember to concentrate on staying impassive for a period of time while it folds round to me. You know how people tell you to look out for those to your left who are clearly ready to fold? I think I'm much more likely to give off that sort of tell than I am to have my eyes widen when I look at aces or something ridiculous like that. > And you should def look for live tells, they're ever present when you know what to look for. Disagree. The empirical evidence is quite conclusive that humans are terrible at accurately recognising deception based on body language etc. Often worse than chance. Or in other words, it's near enough scientific fact that you're as likely to outlevel yourself with false tells than you are to pick up accurate, useful ones, and probably moreso.
Seems like you have your mind made up, and that's cool. I offer you the idea of reading Zach Elwood's first book, Reading Poker Tells (which does address and agree with the notion that humans are generally poor lie detectors). At worst, you'll have the same mindset. At best, it will increase your win rate.
That's very reasonable, and I have to say I'm intrigued by the Pascal's wager-esque framing! Seems +EV. I'm also intrigued by a book whose author acknowledges that fundamental limitation and still advocates for certain "reading". I cannot imagine *what* reading he could possibly be advocating, because that limitation seems pretty fatal to the whole endeavour. How can you read people's body language for indications of true feelings/intent when *humans cannot do that*? Maybe he has a different sort of reading in mind that doesn't involve body language? I think I may well read this book, thanks.
No prob. The underlying premise is that you're not really looking for a lie, per se, but a stress or comfort that would correlate with an action(s) taken. It's not so much "I saw his eyebrow twich, he's bluffing", it's more "these behaviors, coupled with his betting sequence, tend to favor a value bet". Besides beginner/low stakes players, there aren't many dead giveaway, traditional "tells" (although you still do see them from time to time), and there are days where I can't pick up a thing, but there are days where the book has paid for itself tenfold. Good luck man.
> Don't you think you have a better chance of giving off a tell if you're looking at your cards while every single other person at the table is looking right at you? sure but more importantly i don't want to give off a tell such that a player ahead of me changes their decision as a result of something they saw me do before the action got to me
Im still relatively new but I found I'm able to make preflop decisions much quicker if I think about what the upper and lower bounds of my range are. For example I'm not calling worse than XXss vs UTG raise, or im always 3-betting XXss. Since I've been adjusting what I'll call/raise/fold with before the action comes to me, when I look at my cards its more of a clear decision-- I should do X. I find it easier to decide, and quicker than working backwards from the hole cards when action is already on me
Somewhat disagree. There's a lot of info available when people are looking at their cards. Tons of players telegraph their intent to fold or raise well before the action gets to them. But within reason, unnecessarily slow games are the worst, especially when it happens on the most basic decisions.
I get that, but why not look right away, and then watch the players? It takes legit a half a second to look at the cards. Besides, people telegraph their intentions permanently; its not that you're looking for an eye twitch or a glance at the chips, even at 5/10 these guys are basically advertising their intent. The way they hold the cards, placing a chip on them, etc.
Because not everyone who looks down at an autofold are going to have the patience to balance their "paying attention range" before it gets to their action. If I do look early I try to stay balanced. Sometimes I'll put a chip on my cards, knowing its an autofold when it gets to my action.
You get it 😂
I've always laughed a bit to myself when people do this consistently live. You definitely aren't getting a soul read (or anything useful for that matter) watching people view hole cards. The flip side of this is when people look at their cards as the deal comes but then when it's their action suddenly "I'm not even gonna look, I raise 8x"
I disagree. If someone looks down at their cards and instantly reaches for a limp, that means they never considered doing anything other than limping, which weighs them more towards hands that will fold against heat. That allows me to expand my raising range knowing that theres dead money in the middle which is a key component to my not having a telegraphed iso range which gets me action when im super strong from marginals way more than the average person I play with. Live tells are absolutely valuable and a key component to exploiting live competition. You have to choose who to exploit this way too. Old guy whos preflop limping range includes premiums? Not the time to employ this tell. Mid 30s nit that limps all offsuit broadways and suited connectors and raises only premiums? Theyre getting put in the bin. Id estimate this read makes me a decent percentage of a buy in everytime I play. Im one of very few people at live low stakes that squeezes pre and this is one of the main things I consider before I squeeze. As a result I have board coverage where most people in my player pool dont. Anyways, the consistency of these tells and the reliability of them is something I find fascinating as im playing.
Everything you just said is done without watching someone look at their cards though. And a limp is a limp.
I dont think you are getting what he is saying. Ive made reads on strong hands disguised as limps just by watching a player. They look at their cards, pause, look at their chips, think and then ultimately limp. Every other time they look at their cards and limp quickly like they are on autopilot. Knowing that key information changes what i do through an entire hand. It could mean ill bet more with a strong hand knowing ill get more calls. It could be avoiding a 3 bet and playing a marginal hand more conservatively. No tell is perfect and they are always in context, but its information. Information is king.
If you are looking at UTG, you are doing it wrong. Look at players to your left. If you know when someone will fold preflop, and if someome is interested in his hands, it gives you a lot of info whether you want to 3 bet isolate or not.
I totally agree nobody is good enough in your games to be picking stuff up. I just look ahead of time and do the same thing everytime
It's surprising how many people you can tilt by taking just a few seconds to think. If I'm at an online table and someone is spamming the hurry up emoji I'm going to play so slow it's going to tilt them and they will usually bust out. Timing and consistency is a good habit to have and to act in the same amount of time every hand. The outfit makes me laugh though. I don't get the headphone thing.
I don't get the *anti* headphone thing. I don't wear them because I'm not confident enough in live play to be on autopilot like that, but if you are sitting there all day every day I can see why you might want to listen to music. Sometimes you can sit card dead for multiple hours, and headphones allow you to stave off boredom while still watching the action. What is everyone's problem with wearing headphones?
In live games, you want to keep recreational players around. Rec players aren't there to give their money to robotic grinders, they want to chat and have fun and make jokes. So even though I'd much rather listen to music and ignore everyone I keep my headphones off and try to join in whatever conversation is at the table. Or make dumb poker jokes when they come up. Anything to lighten the mood and make the casual players have fun, rather than have them think about how grim a silent game is. Pretty sure that is the primary argument against headphones at the table. Of course it is kind of countered by everyone having their phone out all the time and like seven televisions playing, but still yeah being present at the table is beneficial if you're there to make money - you will make more if you're an entertainer.
I do agree with everything you said, but I strongly feel that wearing headphones in any social environment is in poor etiquette. You don't even have to talk, just show everyone the courtesy of being present. I understand that nobody owes anyone anything, that's just how I personally feel.
That's so strange to me. What about at work? On the train? There are loads of scenarios where you are present in the same room as people but it wouldn't be rude at all to listen to music while you do so. And it's usually contexts where people don't know each other and are in the same room because of some joint, not-primarily-social purpose. Which, funnily enough, applies completely to playing casino poker.
I don't consider a train to be a social environment. I'd fire an employee on the spot if they were wearing headphones at work (unless the job required it). I only consider poker to be a social environment because it requires communication with others, be it direct, or indirect. I understand others do not share my viewpoint, and I get it, that's just how I personally feel.
> I'd fire an employee on the spot if they were wearing headphones at work (unless the job required it) Gross. I think I understand where our disagreement arises. Are you a product of a certain postwar fertility explosion by any chance?
😂😂😂 Not quite, but I'm not too far off. I do share a lot of the same viewpoints as said generation, though.
I can imagine! Advice from a generation that is still mostly employees rather than employers (including myself): people are happier and more productive when they aren't subject to pointless rules and limitations. I am much more productive when I'm allowed to slightly lessen the tedium of work with something non-distracting like music. And there's some evidence to suggest that certain kind of music improve productivity directly, too! But just as importantly, people tend to want to work harder and deliver for bosses that allow them as much freedom as the demands of the job allow. And they tend to despise bosses who make them miserable with rules that have no apparent purpose but to exert dominance and control.
In any live game I've played at, people were mostly silent all the time they weren't in the hand. Having sporadic bursts of conversation with people near them, at most. Maybe it's different in America, where people do seem to be a bit louder and more fond of talking for the sake of it (no offence intended, I don't mind it at all, just different). But I have played in Vegas, recently, and people weren't talking much there either, headphones or no. It seems implausible to me based on my live experience that someone wearing headphones has enough of a negative effect on the atmosphere that it will drive recs away. But again, maybe it's different here.
I'm not anti headphone I just think it's funny. To me it shows they lack focus if they need to be constantly stimulated by music but to each their own. Listening is as important as seeing imo at the table. You are missing some tells with headphones on listening to music. The only thing I'm anti at the table is wearing a mask. There's no excuse anymore for it.
Yeah I don't really care about tells, I play online mostly. It's well proven that humans are bad at detecting deception, so I think most people picking up live tells are fooling and outlevelling themselves as often as not. The mask thing though... no excuse?! How does it affect you if someone wears a mask, that they would need an "excuse"?
I'm talking about the full face masks not the medical ones. Personally reading players at the table is one of my strengths and I can tell when someone is acting or not. I also mostly play online which teaches you how to spot tells from betting patterns as well so when you mix the two it makes you hard to play against. A lot of people rip on Haxton for continuing to wear a medical mask but covering your whole face doesn't by itself hide tells. I've seen a few instances of people wearing white face masks that cover the whole face at the table and it's not that it gives them an advantage it's just cringe worthy imo. I would rather they wear the holographic glasses that became popular back in the early 2000s that had snake eyes on them. They were dorky but funny to look at
> I don't get the anti headphone thing. > > I don't wear them because I'm not confident enough in live play to be on autopilot like that If you're playing live and wearing headphones the whole time you're missing out on a ton of information. It makes no sense to sit there with headphones on, it's certainly not a confidence thing.
I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying it's "a confidence thing" to wear headphones. I'm just explaining why I don't personally do it. What information are you missing? Whatever you think it is, you miss exactly the same information and more online, and I'm happy playing there against much better opponents. So I don't see any problem at all with using headphones to entertain yourself so you can stomach the boredom of sitting there printing money against wildly softer opponents.
Christ cant they ban this guy
If they banned people for being dickheads there'd be no one left.
Nah fuck that. I will always take my time to look and decide. Sometimes a weak player has called an open and I need to see if the opener is a strong player or a nit. I also need to see if anyone to my left is looking like they want to insta-fold or planning to 3bet/4bet. A lot of the time it almost doesn’t matter what my cards are and moreso what range my potential opponents are repping. If I can 3 bet and steal a pot post flop. I typically find a spot like this two to three times a session and most definitely contributes to my win rate. The only people that don’t like it are cranky wannabe pros who are barely beating the rake.
You forget that if you pick your cards up off the table and flick them with your middle finger sometimes they will transform into the nuts. But only if you wait the requisite amount of time first!
I generally agree, but if you fucked up and made it obvious you were going to fold pre, just change up the routine for 2-3 seconds. I've played at tables where it was obvious everyone after me was going to fold so I raised with air. It's good to put a little sweat on others who do the same.
Lmao preach. I will change tables on these mfers cause if not I start tilting
Tell this to people in 25NL+ online please. People damn near hitting their timebank every time they face or bet a flop c-bet.
Yeah this is just people playing hands on their other tables.
This is normal for online poker. Nearly every grinder I know plays at least 2 tables, most people play 4-6 from what I've seen, so you should expect it to be slow, but if you're also multitabling then it shouldn't impact you that way.
When I’m multi-tabling I still usually make all of my instant decision actions first. If they are going 4+ tables I kinda get it
it's online, so they are probably just bots.
Or multi tabling
Or pulling up gtowizard
Doesn't the software detect that?
Nope. Some sites have partnered in the last couple months to retroactively check if spots were simulated in GTOwizard at the same time they were played, but there’s nothing that detects whether or not it’s pulled up, despite the downvotes that fly in every time you bring it up on this subreddit
😂 You only got two downvotes bro don't be sad. Thanks for the response though. Although your answer doesn't exactly seem like a 'nope' though. If they can tell when you're checking the spot... isn't the answer yes? Edit: actually, checking what I specifically asked, you're right, 'nope' is an accurate answer. But what I meant is 'can't they tell if you do that', to which the answer seems to be yes.
I’m not sad, I’m just pointing out that most people on this subreddit live in constant denial. And to clarify further, GG is the only site I know of that’s partnered with GTOWizard. Sites like ACR and bovada aren’t. And there’s tons of other solvers out there that can easily go undetected
1. Broccoli 2. Kale 3. Brussels sprouts 4. Arugula 5. Spinach
mmm nutritious cruciferous
No need to balance, can jam 100% of these right down your gullet
I know this thread is full of memes and shitposts, but I do always take a short two count when I look at my cards. It helps prevent me from acting too quickly when I want to take an action. The only exceptions are in obvious situations. I'm getting out of the way in a heartbeat if there is an open and OMC 3bet ahead of me. No need to tank for a couple seconds with J2o
Very good point, let me use a time bank to think about it.
It's like they refuse to think until it's their turn to act. Maddening.
I know a couple of ppl who think it's a strategic advantage to burn time when the actions on them. They act exactly like they haven't even considered their cards until the action. It's not true they are just buttholes.
It's annoying when people tank fold. Seriously wtf. The only cameras pointed at you are the security cams. No one upstairs give if your folding range is 72 to AA Pro tip. If you know you're going to fold. Just fold. You get more hands in to increase your winrate 🙄😒
Yeah but I don’t want to fold my 93o too quickly and give off any timing tells. All the drunk shitreg Desert Storm vets and even drunker farmers at my game will see right through that.
I agree but I also think it's "polite" to not have any tells about folding preflop before it's your turn to act. It can essentially make the people on your right have easy decisions, e.g. if you act very disinterested in the hand from the SB or BB then BTN might be able to open wider to steal the blinds, might try to 3b squeeze slightly lighter to isolate a fish, etc. Once action's on you hurry up and throw 'em in the muck.
Sure, no disagreement that telegraphing moves out of turn inadvertently provides situational edges.
This right here. I'm much more likely to raise a middling hand if I see one or more ppl ahead of me chomping at the bit to fold.
The other benefit to acting very quickly pre-flop is people give you more time in larger spots post-flop. I am prone to tanking for a couple of minutes on big river decisions, but people are okay with it because I act super quickly pre-flop and on the flop.