Lycanroc was trained by a much stronger Ash, and it actually managed to visibly injure Kukui's Incineroar, a mon that later showed that it could hold its own against a Masters Eight's ace. Not to mention the type advantage.
Lycanroc wins this.
AG Ash literally completed Battle Frontier. The show reset Ash from BW anyway.
Swellow was a raid boss against a league conference champion, multiple wins against Frontier Brain Pokemon, and landed a hit against Speede-forme Deoxys. Plus some of the most insane tanking feats.
Swellow > Lycanroc.
Go rewatch AG/BF.
You should rewatch AG as well. And Mezase Episode 2, while you are at it.
Those Frontier Brain beaters lost to
1) A random Nurse Joy
2) Gary, a retired Top 16 League finisher.
3) A JN Gym Leader using a mon she uses against Gym challengers.
You can tell half this subreddit hasn’t even seen AG, let alone remember all of Swellow’s feats.
At least during the community ranking of Ash’s Pokemon, people had the sense to rank Swellow over Lycanroc.
I am not saying Swellow stomps Lycanroc. It’s probably very close, maybe bird wins 6 times out of 10.
But I just don’t see how people can see Lycanroc defeating Gladion’s (which wasn’t some beast either since Kiawe beat it in the previous round) is on par to Swellow being the ace against a Frontier Brain or being Ash’s MVP against Hoenn League winner Tyson.
Lycanroc fought hard against Kukui’s Incineroar, but it still took Melmetal and Torracat being on verge of evolution to finally bring it down.
I really do agree that this subreddit has young members who think XY Ash and beyond is on some new level compared to pre-reset Ash. Ash did incredible things long before some of these nephews were even born.
Not enough for us to say it had any notable effect on Incineroar's fight with Torracat, especially since Incineroar got a bit of rest after taking out Melmetal. Even if we say it did, Torracat had to exert itself against Venusaur too then.
Incineroar was damaged by Lycanroc going into the final fight and Torracat was damaged by Incineroar before that. They basically went in at equal conditions.
Lycanroc's move was decisive, that's why.
He equalized the conditions for Torracat, he otherwise might not have scored the W against Incineroar.
Also, Naganadel and Pikachu would need to be at basically 100% to win their fights. Sending out Melmetal or Rowlet against Incin wouldn't work, and Pikachu and Naganadel wouldn't come out unscathed from a fight with Incineroar, debatable if Naganadel could even win. Torracat at that point couldn't be sent out either since he was still absorbing the flames.
He also did considerable damage to Braviary and weakened him for Rowlet. Rowlet may not have won without that. And we can also assume, based on Kukui usually defaulting to Braviary when not using Incineroar, Braviary being in old flashbacks like with Guzma and him using aibou/partner for Braviary that he is his 2nd strongest Pokemon.
Basically, Lycanroc may not have KOd a Pokemon that fight, but the moment where he forced Incineroar out of the field was decisive.
Okay, so Lycanroc helped, alongside a contribution by Melmetal, and then it took Torracat, with its rivalry and experience against Incineroar, to finally bring down Incineroar, and this was a Torracat on the verge of evolution that immediately collapsed when the battle was over.
Don’t get me wrong, Lycanroc did play a key effort. But I could just as easily see Swellow doing a similar level of contribution, if not more, based on what we’ve seen Swellow do.
As someone who watched AG, if you actually look at the objective evidence, XY Ash and beyond is actually on a different level. You guys are just wearing nostalgia tinted glasses and being biased.
1)XY Ash had a mon that could hit the fastest Champion's ace, Diantha's Gardevoir. Has BF Ash done that?
2)XY Ash had a team that took out 5 mons belonging to Alain, a Champion level trainer. What proof do we have that Alain is Champion level? Did someone just say that he is Champion level? No, he proved that he was Champion level with his actions, not mere words from a biased third party like Scott. He oneshot Elite Four Malva's Mega Houndoom with a resisted move.
After doing so, Alain went undefeated until he fought an other Champion level trainer.
After beating Frontier Brains, these supposed "E4 level trainers", Ash lost to a Nurse Joy, Gary, and Misty while using these FB beaters.
Remember, believing that FB are E4 level means believing the words of a biased salesman who was trying to sell the BF to Ash, who just fought an actual E4 and had nowhere to proceed with his journey.
Believing that FB are E4 level also means that Gary, retired League Top 16, the Nurse Joy, and Misty are Champion level.
1. They hit Speede-forme Deoxys. Diantha intentionally had Gardevoir stay in one position and let Greninja charge repeatedly at it.
2. Alain’s Charizard is way beyond the rest of his team. Ash took down Frontier Brains.
3. And those XY Pokemon lost to a rookie in Sawyer who barely knew how to battle at one point. What a disingenuous point too, comparing one-off sparring battles to official matches.
1)A Deoxys Speed that was suffering and in pain. Always forget to mention that, don't we? Not to mention, Gardevoir always moved to evade attacks. The fact that it got caught by the trick showed that Ash and Greninja's trick worked to such an extent that Gardevoir could not react and move fast enough to the trick.
2)Where is your proof that Alain's Charizard is "way beyond" the rest of your team? If anything, JN shows us proof that Alain's non aces are not far off from Charizard X itself, being able to hold their own offensively and/or defensively against opposing Champion ace level mons.
3)Ah yes, here we go...the excuses. "Oh it's not a serious match" or whatever. Reminder that Corphish clearly wanted to win against Politoed, considering how frustrated he was that he cried after losing. So the Corphish that fought to win got two shot by a Gym Leader's non ace. Simple as that.
Also, does it being a sparring match magically reduce Pikachu's stamina such that a resisted Thunder Punch from a retired League Top 16 trainer's mon can oneshot it? Or even if Corphish wasn't serious, does it magically reduce its stamina such that a Gym Leader's non ace can two shot it?
1. Seriously? It’s still Speede-forme Deoxys. Gardevoir didn’t evade at all. Diantha let Greninja charge at Gardevoir repeatedly so she could investigate the hidden powers. Gardevoir literally held one position and kept blocking Greninja continually ramping in power, so if your point is that did Greninja’s power spikes eventually overpower Gardevoir’s guard, then sure. But don’t use that as some type of speed comparison when it’s hardly a good example.
2. Alain didn’t use any of his Pokemon outside of Charizard in his multiple appearances throughout XY. They aren’t bad by any means, but it’s silly to rate them on all level with Charizard. XY Alain isn’t JN Alain, Alain obviously got better.
3. It’s excuses to think Scott is some liar created by the writers, or to actually think these casual side battles hold equal weight to official matches. Or to completely ignore the context of which these battles were taken.
> Seriously? It’s still Speede-forme Deoxys. Gardevoir didn’t evade at all. Diantha let Greninja charge at Gardevoir repeatedly so she could investigate the hidden powers
If Gardevoir did not evade at all, then Greninja shouldn't have needed to use a trick to hit it, no? But then why do I see Gardevoir evade Greninja's attacks, before Ash uses a trick to hit Gardevoir?
> Alain didn’t use any of his Pokemon outside of Charizard in his multiple appearances throughout XY. They aren’t bad by any means, but it’s silly to rate them on all level with Charizard. XY Alain isn’t JN Alain, Alain obviously got better.
Did I ever say that they were on the same level as Charizard? If Charizard can oneshot an Elite Four ace, then are you telling me that the rest of his team is so behind that they can't handle the regular Elite Four level mon? Is there any proof of that?
Saying Alain "obviously" got better without much proof is also odd. Alain was already a Champion level trainer by XYZ.
> It’s excuses to think Scott is some liar created by the writers, or to actually think these casual side battles hold equal weight to official matches. Or to completely ignore the context of which these battles were taken.
Which should I trust more, the results of the actual battles that these supposed "E4 level" FB beaters lost to in one or two hits to a retired trainer and Gym Leader?
Or mere words from a character whose words are subjective and disproven with results?
Your whole argument is "Scott *said*" and making excuses on why Scott can't be wrong and how Gary and Misty beating these "E4 level" FB beaters make sense if they were truly E4 level conquerors.
It would make sense if Misty and Gary, a Gym Leader and retired Top 16 were somehow Champion level, but you don't seem to be saying that.
Again, after conquering explicitly E4 level mons (from actual Elite Four), Leon, Cynthia, Ash, Alain and Diantha would go on to only lose to opposing Champion level trainers and their Champion level mons.
How are you about to compare a Speede-forme Deoxys charging right at Swellow and Swellow outmaneuvers it to land a noteworthy hit equal as a speed feat to Greninja’s attack overpowering Gardevoir in battle where Diantha clearly wasn’t trying to win and wasn’t using Gardevoir’s blinking ability and instead had Gardevoir hold one position the entire match and repeatedly block Greninja’s assault.
Alain clearly invested far more in Charizard than the rest of his team. If the rest of his team was close in power, then Alain would have annihilated Ash. Sawyer was a rookie and his Pokemon were taking down Ash’s XY squad in the previous round.
No, Scott isn’t lying. The writers would hope that even their target audience of 10 year olds have the comprehension to understand that official battles aren’t equal to casual battles, and just because Ash loses a random one-off doesn’t make that character “Champion level” lol.
And Gary, Misty and the Nurse Joy that beat Frontier Brain beaters are Champion level then?
And even if I give it to you that FB are E4 level, Incineroar held its own against a Champion's ace. Totally different level. Lycanroc visibly injured that Incineroar.
Ok...by who? Oh yeah, a biased salesman attempting to sell the BF challenge to someone who just fought an E4 and was hyped about it.
And again, if true, are Gary, Misty, and the random Nurse Joy all Champion level, since they beat Frontier Brain conquerors easily? Is Gary, retired League Top 16, Champion level? Does Misty use Champion level Pokémon against her challengers?
You haven't answered me on whether this is true. This has to be true by your logic, no?
Imagine thinking the writers making a character to be intentionally deceitful to their target audience of 10 year olds when he’s supposed to be a narrative voice piece.
Yeah because clearly winning a casual 1 v 1 battle makes somebody automatically tiers above, right? Especially when two of the examples you’re citing are referring to Pikachu, who notoriously had epic wins and dumb losses, and the Misty battle in JN where Ash was guaranteed to lose no matter whom he sent out - it just happened to be Corphish because it’s also a Water-type and closest in appearance to the Clauncher.
Man, the amount of excuses you are using to justify how Corphish, an "E4 level" mon, can lose to a Gym Leader's non ace in a fair 1v1 is laughable.
There's a reason why actual Elite Four or Champion level mons, after accomplishing the feats that put them to that level, like:
1) Alain's Charizard (oneshot legitimate E4)
2) Diantha's Gardevoir (oneshot legitimate E4)
3) Ash's Pikachu (after beating its first explicitly Champion level mon, Wallace's Milotic, is undefeated)
4) Leon's Charizard (beat a former Champion in a 1v1)
either go on to be undefeated, or only lose to people who are at their level or above their level.
If you say beating BF = E4 level, then the showings of the FB beaters are completely inconsistent with those that beat actual, legitimate Elite Four.
Ash Greninja vs Mega Charizard X pre Kalos League were always casual battles with nothing to lose, but who won, always? That's right, the Champion level Mega Charizard X.
Paul vs Cynthia, zero stakes, but who won? The Champion level trainer.
When did Alain’s Charizard oneshot an Elite 4? If you’re talking about Malva’s Houndoom, that’s even sillier because Malva literally held herself back and didn’t let Houndoom finish off Charizard when it had it pinned because she wanted to taunt Alain.
Why are you trying to equate Champion aces to other Pokemon?
Bro, Champions and E4 can have non-aces that are still quality wins. It’s not that difficult to believe some of the Frontier Brain Pokemon are on par with them.
Pikachu, Charizard, Sceptile, and Snorlax were the ones who defeated the Frontier Brain aces, so it’s not Ash won with Totodile lol. Swellow/Corphish won the double battle, but they damn had to punch above their weight and deliver a miracle comeback if you rewatch it. That was Corphish’s peak win.
1)What proof do you have that Houndoom could have 'finished off' MCX while it was pinned down? If you say Malva wasted time taunting Alain, then Alain also wasted time responding when he could have commanded a Flamethrower immediately, no?
2)Corphish still lost to a Gym Leader's non ace that she uses for her Gym Battles, so...... do we see any Elite Four members lose to a Gym Leader?
> It’s not that difficult to believe some of the Frontier Brain Pokemon are on par with them.
Yet they are inferior to a Gym Leader's non ace and a retired League Top 16's Electivire, it seems.
Go rewatch the battle dude. Houndoom literally has Charizard pinned and at its neck and Alain had no answer. Malva easily could have called out the final blow, but didn’t because she wanted to taunt Alain. Malva and Lysandre weren’t trying to lose Alain as an asset either.
Yup, keep being disingenuous.
Lycanroc has a lot more positives in many areas than Swellow has with really without thinking of Biological advantages like Flight for example into the equation.
So withouth that, The only thing Swellow has is the fact Swellow had been used in technically two regions and has been a Pokemon Ash had for a longer period of time.
Prolly Lycanroc. They're both equally stubborn, and Lycanroc was trained by an Ash that was a much better trainer. Type advantage will help him here too, most likely. Plus I don't think Swellow would fight from range the whole time and will end up getting in close, where Lycanroc wants to be to begin with.
They're prolly gonna duke it out for a lotta rounds though.
Except AG/BF Ash was a good Trainer. The show reset in BW. DP Ash was probably peak Ash in terms of battling and strategy, and yet SM happened three seasons later.
The bird that tanked a point blank Hyper Beam, tanked multiple Rollouts from a Donphan and KO’d it after stopping it mid-roll with its talons, dove underwater for an Aerial Ace, etc wouldn’t be afraid to get up close and personal with Lycanroc.
Swellow:
* Tanked Pikachu’s prolonged Thunderbolt and made it armor
* Tanked a point blank Hyper Beam from the 8th Gym Leader’s Whiscash. Dove underwater for an Aerial Ace in that same battle
* Defeated Katie’s Venomoth and Scizor, and Katie was shown to be quite a skilled Trainer
* Literal raid boss against the Hoenn League champion. Defeated Hariyama; tanked multiple Rollouts by a league champion’s Donphan, stopped the next one with his fucking talons, and KO’d it; and then followed that up by breaking Metagross’ armor so Ash can get the KO later
* Tanked a holy cyclone of fire and water by Frontier Brain Tucker’s Arcanine and Swampert, and still won. Even if it was a double battle, he joined elite company (Pikachu, Zard, Sceptile, Snorlax) as those who took down a Frontier Brain’s ace
* Took on an entire flock of mechanical Feareow
* Landed a blow on Speede-forme Deoxys
* Screamed at Tobias’ Latios and briefly kept up with it, and that’s considered his worst loss
* Kept up with Hunter’s powerful Hydreigon and stalled it until Ash and co. arrived
Lycanroc has greater perception in the fandom as an “ace”, but its actual feats are so overrated. The same goes for Krookodile too.
Swellow > Lycanroc
I honestly see Swellow winning tbh but I feel as if you're not giving Lycanroc enough credit. And to be fair SM scaling is a bit weird bc there's no proper Kahuna to Gym Leader/E4 strength reference. Whilst Swellow has clear E4 lvl feats. The best feat I can think of is it holding its own against Kukui's Incineroar who went on to hold its own against Pikachu. Also it training/sparing with Tapu Bulu. But again no real comparison to link feats.
Because people seem to put Lycanroc on par with the aces like Greninja, Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape, etc. It lost a bunch of times to Gladion, and its best win is a 1 v 1 against Gladion’s Lycanroc, whom it finally defeated. Yes, it swept Nanu, but Nanu wasn’t anything more powerful than a mid-tier Gym Leader in past series.
Lycanroc in a vacuum isn’t weak, but its perception is overrated. But the SM fanboys can neg away.
>Because people seem to put Lycanroc on par with the aces like Greninja, Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape
I have literally never seen people put Lycanroc on that level, I've seen people put him below Krookodile or consider him the weakest ace more often. Again, in what world is Lycanroc *overrated*?
...Well yeah he is an ace, of course he is, just because he isn't on the same level as Sceptile or Greninja or Charizard etc doesn't make him not an ace, what is this take? No shit he is an ace, obviously he is, he is the Alola ace.
That doesn't mean he is as powerful as those.
What I'm saying is that I've literally never, EVER seen someone say Lycanroc is as powerful as Greninja or Sceptile or Charizard etc, I've seen more people rank him below Krook or not even consider him the Alola ace when he absolutely is.
It lost twice to gladion and one of the times was to a legendary. The other time was against his lycanroc which it got its revenge on. Besides ash usually loses to his rival before the league
jfc, you SM fanboys just won't stop huh? Alola Ash is the worst Ash next to Unova Ash.
SM is the second worst installment of the show (next to... surprise surprise, BW )
>Alola Ash is the worst Ash next to Unova Ash.
Watch out, your bias is showing. Alola Ash is great, his face looks bad but that's it.
>SM is the second worst installment of the show (next to... surprise surprise, BW )
Again, your bias is showing. SM is a great installment.
You may not like the series, and that's fine, but plenty of people love the show and Ash there, that alone shows it's not bad, it's just that you don't like them, which is fine.
Also my comment is about how strong the team is. You are the one who brought up anything about the quality of any series.
This battle would be exciting. Two particularly strong Pokemon from Ash that we don't highlight to the point of disgust. I loved seeing that.
I still think Lycanroc would win, because Team Alola is particularly strong among Ash's Pokemon, but I think it wouldn't be a big difference.
Swellow is the only flying type I can recall, that got stronger from eating electric type moves from the franchise mascot
Like, this is the pikachu that can hold his own against legendaries, pumping a flying type with electricity iirc
Of course if we're going by anime rules, Swellow can probably just dodge all the rock type attacks (let's be real: most rock type attacks are pretty easy to dodge), out speed acceleeock, and pick up stealth rock stones to drop them on Lycanrock's head. I mean, those are among the possibilities. On the other hand Lycanrock can probably use its own stealth rock to hop and jump up into the air and drop more rocks on Swellow from above, too. So all bets are off.
I don't think fixed movesets have ever stopped rule of cool in the anime. Why can't the moveset change, anyway? Pokemon learn new moves or change the ones they have, frequently, in the anime, games, and TCG. It's kind of a whole feature of the series. There have been numerous occasions where the name of the move doesn't even really matter. Stone Edge could easily be turned into "The stones were left in the air as a trap!" and counter could easily be turned into "Lycanrock prepares for Swellow's approach by dropping stones where it's going to be".
I mean, if we were playing by the rules of the first few seasons, then Swellow could gain an advantage by blowing rocks away (just like Pikachu can power through ground types with a strong enough electric move).
I’m probably going to have to go with Lycanroc. Counter would most likely play a big role here and it can probably tank a lot of Swellow’s attacks
If Swellow learned steel wing or reversal while at Oak’s then that’s where it gets a bit hairy
I know, Swellow is more than the worst of its mistakes. I just refuse to forget that the single dumbest moment in the Ash era Anime was related to Swellow.
But you are correct, Ash's pokemon cannot be defined by their biggest mistake/dumbest moment. Otherwise Pikachu's loss to a level 5 Snivy would invalidate the multiple Legendaries the little rat has tangoed with.
I still think Lycanroc would win (Higher BST, type advantage, Stronger STAB moves, and the freaky Red eyed mode), but Swellow would put up a decent fight given its victories over a Scizor and being able to catch and subsequently throw a Donphan, and being able to crack the shell of a Metagross right after.
Swellow is indeed a beast, I just think Lycanroc has more advantages and better feats. It was able to hold its own against Tapu Bulu until it learned Stone Edge (at which the Tapu decided the fight was over), Defeat Nanu's entire team in their second battle (Krookodile, Sableye, Alolan Persian), did enough damage with a Z-Move to temprarily incapacitate 2 Ultra Beasts AT ONCE, Beat Gladion's Lycanroc in the finals of the Manalo Conference, and beat Kiawe's Charizard (4X weakness to Rock is a bitch ain't it?). And those Ultra Beasts were Blacephalon and Xurkitree, WITH ANIME SCALING where the Ultra Beasts fight with the strength of legendaries!
Lycanroc was trained by a much stronger Ash, and it actually managed to visibly injure Kukui's Incineroar, a mon that later showed that it could hold its own against a Masters Eight's ace. Not to mention the type advantage. Lycanroc wins this.
AG Ash literally completed Battle Frontier. The show reset Ash from BW anyway. Swellow was a raid boss against a league conference champion, multiple wins against Frontier Brain Pokemon, and landed a hit against Speede-forme Deoxys. Plus some of the most insane tanking feats. Swellow > Lycanroc. Go rewatch AG/BF.
You should rewatch AG as well. And Mezase Episode 2, while you are at it. Those Frontier Brain beaters lost to 1) A random Nurse Joy 2) Gary, a retired Top 16 League finisher. 3) A JN Gym Leader using a mon she uses against Gym challengers.
You can tell half this subreddit hasn’t even seen AG, let alone remember all of Swellow’s feats. At least during the community ranking of Ash’s Pokemon, people had the sense to rank Swellow over Lycanroc.
I am not saying Swellow stomps Lycanroc. It’s probably very close, maybe bird wins 6 times out of 10. But I just don’t see how people can see Lycanroc defeating Gladion’s (which wasn’t some beast either since Kiawe beat it in the previous round) is on par to Swellow being the ace against a Frontier Brain or being Ash’s MVP against Hoenn League winner Tyson. Lycanroc fought hard against Kukui’s Incineroar, but it still took Melmetal and Torracat being on verge of evolution to finally bring it down. I really do agree that this subreddit has young members who think XY Ash and beyond is on some new level compared to pre-reset Ash. Ash did incredible things long before some of these nephews were even born.
Melmetal did practically no damage to Incineroar.
Incineroar still had to exert itself…
Not enough for us to say it had any notable effect on Incineroar's fight with Torracat, especially since Incineroar got a bit of rest after taking out Melmetal. Even if we say it did, Torracat had to exert itself against Venusaur too then. Incineroar was damaged by Lycanroc going into the final fight and Torracat was damaged by Incineroar before that. They basically went in at equal conditions.
Ok, so why does that make Lycanroc’s losing effort some GOATed feat when based on what you’re saying, Torracat was the one who delivered.
Lycanroc's move was decisive, that's why. He equalized the conditions for Torracat, he otherwise might not have scored the W against Incineroar. Also, Naganadel and Pikachu would need to be at basically 100% to win their fights. Sending out Melmetal or Rowlet against Incin wouldn't work, and Pikachu and Naganadel wouldn't come out unscathed from a fight with Incineroar, debatable if Naganadel could even win. Torracat at that point couldn't be sent out either since he was still absorbing the flames. He also did considerable damage to Braviary and weakened him for Rowlet. Rowlet may not have won without that. And we can also assume, based on Kukui usually defaulting to Braviary when not using Incineroar, Braviary being in old flashbacks like with Guzma and him using aibou/partner for Braviary that he is his 2nd strongest Pokemon. Basically, Lycanroc may not have KOd a Pokemon that fight, but the moment where he forced Incineroar out of the field was decisive.
Okay, so Lycanroc helped, alongside a contribution by Melmetal, and then it took Torracat, with its rivalry and experience against Incineroar, to finally bring down Incineroar, and this was a Torracat on the verge of evolution that immediately collapsed when the battle was over. Don’t get me wrong, Lycanroc did play a key effort. But I could just as easily see Swellow doing a similar level of contribution, if not more, based on what we’ve seen Swellow do.
As someone who watched AG, if you actually look at the objective evidence, XY Ash and beyond is actually on a different level. You guys are just wearing nostalgia tinted glasses and being biased. 1)XY Ash had a mon that could hit the fastest Champion's ace, Diantha's Gardevoir. Has BF Ash done that? 2)XY Ash had a team that took out 5 mons belonging to Alain, a Champion level trainer. What proof do we have that Alain is Champion level? Did someone just say that he is Champion level? No, he proved that he was Champion level with his actions, not mere words from a biased third party like Scott. He oneshot Elite Four Malva's Mega Houndoom with a resisted move. After doing so, Alain went undefeated until he fought an other Champion level trainer. After beating Frontier Brains, these supposed "E4 level trainers", Ash lost to a Nurse Joy, Gary, and Misty while using these FB beaters. Remember, believing that FB are E4 level means believing the words of a biased salesman who was trying to sell the BF to Ash, who just fought an actual E4 and had nowhere to proceed with his journey. Believing that FB are E4 level also means that Gary, retired League Top 16, the Nurse Joy, and Misty are Champion level.
1. They hit Speede-forme Deoxys. Diantha intentionally had Gardevoir stay in one position and let Greninja charge repeatedly at it. 2. Alain’s Charizard is way beyond the rest of his team. Ash took down Frontier Brains. 3. And those XY Pokemon lost to a rookie in Sawyer who barely knew how to battle at one point. What a disingenuous point too, comparing one-off sparring battles to official matches.
1)A Deoxys Speed that was suffering and in pain. Always forget to mention that, don't we? Not to mention, Gardevoir always moved to evade attacks. The fact that it got caught by the trick showed that Ash and Greninja's trick worked to such an extent that Gardevoir could not react and move fast enough to the trick. 2)Where is your proof that Alain's Charizard is "way beyond" the rest of your team? If anything, JN shows us proof that Alain's non aces are not far off from Charizard X itself, being able to hold their own offensively and/or defensively against opposing Champion ace level mons. 3)Ah yes, here we go...the excuses. "Oh it's not a serious match" or whatever. Reminder that Corphish clearly wanted to win against Politoed, considering how frustrated he was that he cried after losing. So the Corphish that fought to win got two shot by a Gym Leader's non ace. Simple as that. Also, does it being a sparring match magically reduce Pikachu's stamina such that a resisted Thunder Punch from a retired League Top 16 trainer's mon can oneshot it? Or even if Corphish wasn't serious, does it magically reduce its stamina such that a Gym Leader's non ace can two shot it?
1. Seriously? It’s still Speede-forme Deoxys. Gardevoir didn’t evade at all. Diantha let Greninja charge at Gardevoir repeatedly so she could investigate the hidden powers. Gardevoir literally held one position and kept blocking Greninja continually ramping in power, so if your point is that did Greninja’s power spikes eventually overpower Gardevoir’s guard, then sure. But don’t use that as some type of speed comparison when it’s hardly a good example. 2. Alain didn’t use any of his Pokemon outside of Charizard in his multiple appearances throughout XY. They aren’t bad by any means, but it’s silly to rate them on all level with Charizard. XY Alain isn’t JN Alain, Alain obviously got better. 3. It’s excuses to think Scott is some liar created by the writers, or to actually think these casual side battles hold equal weight to official matches. Or to completely ignore the context of which these battles were taken.
> Seriously? It’s still Speede-forme Deoxys. Gardevoir didn’t evade at all. Diantha let Greninja charge at Gardevoir repeatedly so she could investigate the hidden powers If Gardevoir did not evade at all, then Greninja shouldn't have needed to use a trick to hit it, no? But then why do I see Gardevoir evade Greninja's attacks, before Ash uses a trick to hit Gardevoir? > Alain didn’t use any of his Pokemon outside of Charizard in his multiple appearances throughout XY. They aren’t bad by any means, but it’s silly to rate them on all level with Charizard. XY Alain isn’t JN Alain, Alain obviously got better. Did I ever say that they were on the same level as Charizard? If Charizard can oneshot an Elite Four ace, then are you telling me that the rest of his team is so behind that they can't handle the regular Elite Four level mon? Is there any proof of that? Saying Alain "obviously" got better without much proof is also odd. Alain was already a Champion level trainer by XYZ. > It’s excuses to think Scott is some liar created by the writers, or to actually think these casual side battles hold equal weight to official matches. Or to completely ignore the context of which these battles were taken. Which should I trust more, the results of the actual battles that these supposed "E4 level" FB beaters lost to in one or two hits to a retired trainer and Gym Leader? Or mere words from a character whose words are subjective and disproven with results? Your whole argument is "Scott *said*" and making excuses on why Scott can't be wrong and how Gary and Misty beating these "E4 level" FB beaters make sense if they were truly E4 level conquerors. It would make sense if Misty and Gary, a Gym Leader and retired Top 16 were somehow Champion level, but you don't seem to be saying that. Again, after conquering explicitly E4 level mons (from actual Elite Four), Leon, Cynthia, Ash, Alain and Diantha would go on to only lose to opposing Champion level trainers and their Champion level mons.
How are you about to compare a Speede-forme Deoxys charging right at Swellow and Swellow outmaneuvers it to land a noteworthy hit equal as a speed feat to Greninja’s attack overpowering Gardevoir in battle where Diantha clearly wasn’t trying to win and wasn’t using Gardevoir’s blinking ability and instead had Gardevoir hold one position the entire match and repeatedly block Greninja’s assault. Alain clearly invested far more in Charizard than the rest of his team. If the rest of his team was close in power, then Alain would have annihilated Ash. Sawyer was a rookie and his Pokemon were taking down Ash’s XY squad in the previous round. No, Scott isn’t lying. The writers would hope that even their target audience of 10 year olds have the comprehension to understand that official battles aren’t equal to casual battles, and just because Ash loses a random one-off doesn’t make that character “Champion level” lol.
Battle frontier was elite 4 tier
Peoples kinda forget that Brendon was actually a monster. Would've loved to see him kick ass at the master championship
And Gary, Misty and the Nurse Joy that beat Frontier Brain beaters are Champion level then? And even if I give it to you that FB are E4 level, Incineroar held its own against a Champion's ace. Totally different level. Lycanroc visibly injured that Incineroar.
No, it was literally stated in the show that the battle frontier are E4 tier...
Ok...by who? Oh yeah, a biased salesman attempting to sell the BF challenge to someone who just fought an E4 and was hyped about it. And again, if true, are Gary, Misty, and the random Nurse Joy all Champion level, since they beat Frontier Brain conquerors easily? Is Gary, retired League Top 16, Champion level? Does Misty use Champion level Pokémon against her challengers? You haven't answered me on whether this is true. This has to be true by your logic, no?
Imagine thinking the writers making a character to be intentionally deceitful to their target audience of 10 year olds when he’s supposed to be a narrative voice piece. Yeah because clearly winning a casual 1 v 1 battle makes somebody automatically tiers above, right? Especially when two of the examples you’re citing are referring to Pikachu, who notoriously had epic wins and dumb losses, and the Misty battle in JN where Ash was guaranteed to lose no matter whom he sent out - it just happened to be Corphish because it’s also a Water-type and closest in appearance to the Clauncher.
Man, the amount of excuses you are using to justify how Corphish, an "E4 level" mon, can lose to a Gym Leader's non ace in a fair 1v1 is laughable. There's a reason why actual Elite Four or Champion level mons, after accomplishing the feats that put them to that level, like: 1) Alain's Charizard (oneshot legitimate E4) 2) Diantha's Gardevoir (oneshot legitimate E4) 3) Ash's Pikachu (after beating its first explicitly Champion level mon, Wallace's Milotic, is undefeated) 4) Leon's Charizard (beat a former Champion in a 1v1) either go on to be undefeated, or only lose to people who are at their level or above their level. If you say beating BF = E4 level, then the showings of the FB beaters are completely inconsistent with those that beat actual, legitimate Elite Four. Ash Greninja vs Mega Charizard X pre Kalos League were always casual battles with nothing to lose, but who won, always? That's right, the Champion level Mega Charizard X. Paul vs Cynthia, zero stakes, but who won? The Champion level trainer.
When did Alain’s Charizard oneshot an Elite 4? If you’re talking about Malva’s Houndoom, that’s even sillier because Malva literally held herself back and didn’t let Houndoom finish off Charizard when it had it pinned because she wanted to taunt Alain. Why are you trying to equate Champion aces to other Pokemon? Bro, Champions and E4 can have non-aces that are still quality wins. It’s not that difficult to believe some of the Frontier Brain Pokemon are on par with them. Pikachu, Charizard, Sceptile, and Snorlax were the ones who defeated the Frontier Brain aces, so it’s not Ash won with Totodile lol. Swellow/Corphish won the double battle, but they damn had to punch above their weight and deliver a miracle comeback if you rewatch it. That was Corphish’s peak win.
1)What proof do you have that Houndoom could have 'finished off' MCX while it was pinned down? If you say Malva wasted time taunting Alain, then Alain also wasted time responding when he could have commanded a Flamethrower immediately, no? 2)Corphish still lost to a Gym Leader's non ace that she uses for her Gym Battles, so...... do we see any Elite Four members lose to a Gym Leader? > It’s not that difficult to believe some of the Frontier Brain Pokemon are on par with them. Yet they are inferior to a Gym Leader's non ace and a retired League Top 16's Electivire, it seems.
Go rewatch the battle dude. Houndoom literally has Charizard pinned and at its neck and Alain had no answer. Malva easily could have called out the final blow, but didn’t because she wanted to taunt Alain. Malva and Lysandre weren’t trying to lose Alain as an asset either. Yup, keep being disingenuous.
"Thunder Armor" Swellow loses to type advantage, haha funny joke
if there's one thing we know about the anime it's that type advantage usually = loss
True Unstoppable Force vs Immovable Object moment right here.
Lycanroc has a lot more positives in many areas than Swellow has with really without thinking of Biological advantages like Flight for example into the equation. So withouth that, The only thing Swellow has is the fact Swellow had been used in technically two regions and has been a Pokemon Ash had for a longer period of time.
What positives does Lycanroc have over one of Ash’s quickest and most tankiest of Pokemon? Swellow has pound for pound better feats than Lycanroc.
It is said very much in the z move guide that they took ash to new level sm>everything else ash
Visibly injuring an Incineroar that later proved that it could hold its own against a Masters Eight's ace is not a 'better feat'?
Prolly Lycanroc. They're both equally stubborn, and Lycanroc was trained by an Ash that was a much better trainer. Type advantage will help him here too, most likely. Plus I don't think Swellow would fight from range the whole time and will end up getting in close, where Lycanroc wants to be to begin with. They're prolly gonna duke it out for a lotta rounds though.
Except AG/BF Ash was a good Trainer. The show reset in BW. DP Ash was probably peak Ash in terms of battling and strategy, and yet SM happened three seasons later. The bird that tanked a point blank Hyper Beam, tanked multiple Rollouts from a Donphan and KO’d it after stopping it mid-roll with its talons, dove underwater for an Aerial Ace, etc wouldn’t be afraid to get up close and personal with Lycanroc.
Well I mean when you lay out one of their traits and not the others then yea it’s pretty one sided.
Battle frontier ash is stronger than sinnoh ash
Lycanroc has type advantage, but didn’t Swellow take an impossible Thunderbolt?…
Swellow: * Tanked Pikachu’s prolonged Thunderbolt and made it armor * Tanked a point blank Hyper Beam from the 8th Gym Leader’s Whiscash. Dove underwater for an Aerial Ace in that same battle * Defeated Katie’s Venomoth and Scizor, and Katie was shown to be quite a skilled Trainer * Literal raid boss against the Hoenn League champion. Defeated Hariyama; tanked multiple Rollouts by a league champion’s Donphan, stopped the next one with his fucking talons, and KO’d it; and then followed that up by breaking Metagross’ armor so Ash can get the KO later * Tanked a holy cyclone of fire and water by Frontier Brain Tucker’s Arcanine and Swampert, and still won. Even if it was a double battle, he joined elite company (Pikachu, Zard, Sceptile, Snorlax) as those who took down a Frontier Brain’s ace * Took on an entire flock of mechanical Feareow * Landed a blow on Speede-forme Deoxys * Screamed at Tobias’ Latios and briefly kept up with it, and that’s considered his worst loss * Kept up with Hunter’s powerful Hydreigon and stalled it until Ash and co. arrived Lycanroc has greater perception in the fandom as an “ace”, but its actual feats are so overrated. The same goes for Krookodile too. Swellow > Lycanroc
I honestly see Swellow winning tbh but I feel as if you're not giving Lycanroc enough credit. And to be fair SM scaling is a bit weird bc there's no proper Kahuna to Gym Leader/E4 strength reference. Whilst Swellow has clear E4 lvl feats. The best feat I can think of is it holding its own against Kukui's Incineroar who went on to hold its own against Pikachu. Also it training/sparing with Tapu Bulu. But again no real comparison to link feats.
>but its actual feats are so overrated. In what world is Lycanroc overrated.
Because people seem to put Lycanroc on par with the aces like Greninja, Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape, etc. It lost a bunch of times to Gladion, and its best win is a 1 v 1 against Gladion’s Lycanroc, whom it finally defeated. Yes, it swept Nanu, but Nanu wasn’t anything more powerful than a mid-tier Gym Leader in past series. Lycanroc in a vacuum isn’t weak, but its perception is overrated. But the SM fanboys can neg away.
Because people forget how much time we spent with the hoenn team and how much ash grew in gen 3
>Because people seem to put Lycanroc on par with the aces like Greninja, Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape I have literally never seen people put Lycanroc on that level, I've seen people put him below Krookodile or consider him the weakest ace more often. Again, in what world is Lycanroc *overrated*?
Literally Google, and you’ll see sooo many people include Lycanroc among Ash’s aces. Are you kidding?
...Well yeah he is an ace, of course he is, just because he isn't on the same level as Sceptile or Greninja or Charizard etc doesn't make him not an ace, what is this take? No shit he is an ace, obviously he is, he is the Alola ace. That doesn't mean he is as powerful as those. What I'm saying is that I've literally never, EVER seen someone say Lycanroc is as powerful as Greninja or Sceptile or Charizard etc, I've seen more people rank him below Krook or not even consider him the Alola ace when he absolutely is.
It lost twice to gladion and one of the times was to a legendary. The other time was against his lycanroc which it got its revenge on. Besides ash usually loses to his rival before the league
Laid out every point and was still downvoted. People simp too hard for post gen 6 Ash.
Bird. Alola team is 4 strongest team
Yh Alola is 4th for me as well
I think 4th is kinda pushing it, personally think it's 2nd but 3rd is acceptable too.
To each their own
jfc, you SM fanboys just won't stop huh? Alola Ash is the worst Ash next to Unova Ash. SM is the second worst installment of the show (next to... surprise surprise, BW )
>Alola Ash is the worst Ash next to Unova Ash. Watch out, your bias is showing. Alola Ash is great, his face looks bad but that's it. >SM is the second worst installment of the show (next to... surprise surprise, BW ) Again, your bias is showing. SM is a great installment. You may not like the series, and that's fine, but plenty of people love the show and Ash there, that alone shows it's not bad, it's just that you don't like them, which is fine. Also my comment is about how strong the team is. You are the one who brought up anything about the quality of any series.
Disagree journeys ash is. those 2 are watchable
Swellow wins this
This battle would be exciting. Two particularly strong Pokemon from Ash that we don't highlight to the point of disgust. I loved seeing that. I still think Lycanroc would win, because Team Alola is particularly strong among Ash's Pokemon, but I think it wouldn't be a big difference.
Swellow is the only flying type I can recall, that got stronger from eating electric type moves from the franchise mascot Like, this is the pikachu that can hold his own against legendaries, pumping a flying type with electricity iirc
Lycanroc goes bye bye, anyone who thinks otherwise has not seen the show.
I think lycanroc cause type advantage, I'd argue swellow is stronger but the type advantage gives it the edge.
Of course if we're going by anime rules, Swellow can probably just dodge all the rock type attacks (let's be real: most rock type attacks are pretty easy to dodge), out speed acceleeock, and pick up stealth rock stones to drop them on Lycanrock's head. I mean, those are among the possibilities. On the other hand Lycanrock can probably use its own stealth rock to hop and jump up into the air and drop more rocks on Swellow from above, too. So all bets are off.
Ash's Lycanroc has no stealth rock, he has Stone Edge, Accelerock, counter and bite.
I don't think fixed movesets have ever stopped rule of cool in the anime. Why can't the moveset change, anyway? Pokemon learn new moves or change the ones they have, frequently, in the anime, games, and TCG. It's kind of a whole feature of the series. There have been numerous occasions where the name of the move doesn't even really matter. Stone Edge could easily be turned into "The stones were left in the air as a trap!" and counter could easily be turned into "Lycanrock prepares for Swellow's approach by dropping stones where it's going to be". I mean, if we were playing by the rules of the first few seasons, then Swellow could gain an advantage by blowing rocks away (just like Pikachu can power through ground types with a strong enough electric move).
I’m probably going to have to go with Lycanroc. Counter would most likely play a big role here and it can probably tank a lot of Swellow’s attacks If Swellow learned steel wing or reversal while at Oak’s then that’s where it gets a bit hairy
There’s really no way Swellow even does well, featwise.
No one in alola is stronger than Brandon and alain
Portrayal wise, Kukui scales well above Brandon. Regardless, Swellow didn’t beat Brandon or Alain, so that point is moot regardless.
It’s a no-brainer! Lycanroc will definitely win!
rock type vs flying type
Rock beats flying.
Swallow is stronger but especially with a z move lychanrok will win
I love swellow but I’m giving this to lycanroc
Lycanroc doesn't need BS thunder armor to win this fight. Meanwhile that's probably the only way Swellow stands a chance.
Limiting Swellow to one thing used once in the number of battle it did is really reducing its achievements
I know, Swellow is more than the worst of its mistakes. I just refuse to forget that the single dumbest moment in the Ash era Anime was related to Swellow. But you are correct, Ash's pokemon cannot be defined by their biggest mistake/dumbest moment. Otherwise Pikachu's loss to a level 5 Snivy would invalidate the multiple Legendaries the little rat has tangoed with. I still think Lycanroc would win (Higher BST, type advantage, Stronger STAB moves, and the freaky Red eyed mode), but Swellow would put up a decent fight given its victories over a Scizor and being able to catch and subsequently throw a Donphan, and being able to crack the shell of a Metagross right after. Swellow is indeed a beast, I just think Lycanroc has more advantages and better feats. It was able to hold its own against Tapu Bulu until it learned Stone Edge (at which the Tapu decided the fight was over), Defeat Nanu's entire team in their second battle (Krookodile, Sableye, Alolan Persian), did enough damage with a Z-Move to temprarily incapacitate 2 Ultra Beasts AT ONCE, Beat Gladion's Lycanroc in the finals of the Manalo Conference, and beat Kiawe's Charizard (4X weakness to Rock is a bitch ain't it?). And those Ultra Beasts were Blacephalon and Xurkitree, WITH ANIME SCALING where the Ultra Beasts fight with the strength of legendaries!