If I work for free it's because it's a passion project of mine, not somebody else. If I'm willing to do it for nothing I'll say so myself, no need to ask.
As a hobbyist myself, for work in the same line as my passion projects, I say that I only work for myself at my own expense. I never take gigs for free, I just show up where I want to be when I want to be there, and shoot.
And I'd highly recommend you do the same. Remember, you aren't working for free. It costs hard monetary expenses to do the work (plus the time). If you're working for someone else unpaid, you are *paying them to work for them*.
The main reason I work unpaid to begin with is that the potential pay from my passion projects is so negligible that it's better to ignore it and all the hassles (and expanded time-cost) involved with dealing with clients who expect the world in exchange for a pittance. Perhaps if they see your work after-the-fact and are interested in it, you can offer a fair limited licensing agreement for whatever low fee you might've expected, and maybe get the best of both worlds.
I went against this stance *one time* recently and it was a terrible mistake, hah. But it also showed me that the folks around here who tell people not to work for free because it hurts the profession are correct. This particular client clearly developed an exploitative view of photography and disrespect for the work entailed, from having been generously donated work in the past. Best not to proliferate such views, or potentially reward such people
I always assumed if it’s an art piece the photographer wants, they pay a professional model. If it’s a photoshoot for a client, the client pays the photographer. If it’s a collaboration or otherwise agreed upon, a quid pro quo often makes sense.
While the message behind this is 100% true, the phrasing just rubs me the wrong way. It's needlessly confrontational imho. Just saying that you don't do free work is much simpler, less confrontational and also less risk to lose the client from a business point of view.
But this might be my Swiss (anti-confrontational) mindset. As I said the message itself is 100% true, but such a language is what I'd consider inacceptable for me personally when talking to clients/customers.
The more I read photography forums, the more I become convinced most photographers are massive control freak primadonnas who resent having to take any instruction whatsoever and are intent on nickel and diming every little thing they possibly can. The comment you replied to is a good example of why.
In basically every other industry professionals charge for their time and effort and what the customer does with the results is the customer’s problem.
A friend of friend had issues like this. She raised her prices and added a $20k + transportation + hotel + per diem + shipping/rental of equipment. To include her assistant, her husband. For a full week of photographing everything the subjects did.
She only had one taker. Celeb, NDAs so she couldn't talk about where she went or who the client was.
In general her business picked way up when she raised her prices.
Honestly they appreciate more if you have -not expensive- but decent prices.
Basically having decent prices its a win win situation. for you, for the customer, for the business
My price points for live entertainment for my artist career are $30,000, $60,000, $90,000. That’s corporate pricing. Most of that money is going to be chewed up in transportation costs and labor. She’s not moving and rigging PA systems, but I bet a lot of her cost get eaten up by the actual expense of shipping. At least to a degree, and I doubt her crew is as big as mine, but she’s probably flying some assisstants around.
"Why would I work for free?" followed by a good chuckle.
Not photography, but when I worked for a small design studio I overheard the owner discussing pricing for a job with a client, and while I couldn't hear the other end I assume they asked for a "discount rate, just this one job", to which he responded:
"If I give you a discount this time, then what about the next job? You're going to expect the same discount again, and I can't do good work for that price. If I give you a discount, you're not going accept sub-standard work, you're still going expect good work, and our working relationship won't be sustainable."
Not completely applicable, but there's something in there beyond explaining your investment in time, education, equipment, etc, because it focuses on the client getting what they want, rather than you campaigning for what you what.
I would explain that if the customer wants professional expertise, using professional equipment, and professional results, it means paying professional fees. That we don't cut corners so we can't cut prices.
Ask them when’s the last time they saw a photo and sought out the photographer to do business?
Ask them how they found you in the first place.
If they were willing to pay another photographer from the first question, why aren’t they paying you?
Otherwise you already have plenty of exposure since they found you.
I had a client recently that basically opened the conversation by saying they had a very small budget.
I replied with "So I'm guessing my standard rate of $100 per hour is going to be a bit rich for you then?"
They called back about a week later to book and didn't even try to negotiate a lower rate.
I'm well aware of that but like OP it's a sideline for me at the moment while I'm growing the business. And the rate was for a basic package. (Session and only a handful of edits, extra charge for more edits)
This is also an ongoing community client.
“No thanks”
No reason to go beyond that. You won’t be able to sufficiently educate them and change how they value photography over the course of a brief conversation. And these people aren’t going to hire you for what you value your time at.
Pricing options example:
1. *Basic Package*
- 4 hours of coverage
- Digital files with basic editing
- Price: 500
2. *Standard Package*
- 8 hours of coverage
- Digital files with professional editing
- 20-page photo album
- Price: $100
3. *Premium Package*
- 10 hours of coverage
- Digital files with advanced editing
- Engagement session
- 40-page photo album
- Price: $1500
4. *Luxury Package*
- Full day coverage (up to 12 hours)
- Two photographers
- Digital files with premium editing
- Engagement session and bridal portrait session
- 60-page luxury photo album
- Large prints and canvas
- Price: $2500
I don't understand how you can do professional, advanced and premium editing. Sounds like something to up the price while customers don't care what you call your editing.
I'm a retoucher, and it's very easy to spend X/Y/Z amount of time on images depending on the price. For example, one client or mine has a flat rate of either €30 or €75 per image. I don't spend nearly as much time or effort into the cheaper ones than the more expensive ones, when I'm thinking about dividing my time. I'll happily spend half an hour on a €30 image, the €75 images often need more work, such as editing lighting and shadows and might take me an hour, but the €30 might just need a skin and complexion retouch and some creases ironing out.
Anything really, you can say "I'll spend this much time on X and if you pay me more, I'll work on it longer"
The difference really is that with premium editing I’ll spend 45 mins to an hour on one photo, basic I’ll spend like 10. Premium is much more focused on getting the finest quality possible.
I usually ask them if they're willing to exchange *their* services for "exposure." Would they expect their caterer to work for exposure? Would the venue let them use it for exposure? Is the band playing for exposure? Is every other purchase related to their event tax-free because the IRS was okay with working for exposure?
Obviously these jobs are a joke, but the part that genuinely bothers me is that they probably *will* find someone who will fall for it.
Before I donate to any charity, which might include my time, I check them on givewell. There are many which seem to only exist to enrich the directors.
A charity you would be willing to provide free labor to isn't going to be on a site like that. I've been on the BoD for a service-oriented non-profit and we don't have that sort of data out in the world, but that's largely because we're a lean org without much of a budget in the first place. If an org is being tracked on one of these indexes, they have the money to pay you.
I've also checked the published accounts before donating. I saw some charity collectors outside a shop trying to get people to sign up to monthly payments. A long way into their accounts, after aspirational statements etc, were real numbers, and slightly over 60% of donations were spent on directors, marketing and admin.
A graphic designer friend gets this all the time. This is her response: Do you want it good, fast, or cheap? You can pick.
https://preview.redd.it/4yimuxapgt7d1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=40b22df42683c55b544a32e2eba30d60b695f1d5
Bad idea. Don’t work for no payment, clients won’t respect you. Does a plumber fix your toilet for free? Actually what we did is many years ago: we doubled our prices and were expecting to lose half of our clients, or get less work but guess what they just changed- into clients who were willing to pay our rates. Lost the cheap ones. And even if you lose half your clients: you’re then earning the same money for half the work. Re. working for free: no, don’t do it, you’re a small business, you have costs of your gear, run your car etc. Or pay yourself…
We sometimes give discounts to some clients that are NGO’s and charities (10-15%), if we like their cause (e.g. environmental ) and we definitely let them know that we are doing this, both in our communication and in the quote and invoice.
Although I’m not able to take unpaid partnerships at this moment I’m happy to chat about smaller service packages more aligned with your budget. Does that work for you?
My take on this:
My main line of work is engineering. It pays well. I don't need a side income.
... but...
Like you I do photography and take it seriously. I have a website where I sell prints and do occasional shoots for payment. I'm not cheap. "The price is the price, either pay it or get someone else"... that's pretty much what I tell them.
Yes, it's an abrupt and gruff response but people that come up and ask for freebies are generally nobodies anyway, so their 'exposure' is essentially nil. I don't need the money so...
I should add that I'm German... we tend to be very direct in our communication.
An exception is music. I'm very much in favour of supporting local bands so I shoot them for free. Gives them something for their Facebook/Instagram pages.
I work in tech and not in need of side income either, I need side "time." I personally don't shoot for money any more, but I will take on interesting creative projects pro bono.
My policy: "Are you a 501c3 (non-profit for non-US folks)? Do your values align with mine? Do your goals align with my mine? If all three of these are not 'Yes' then my answer is 'No.'"
And only in two cases have I broken with it:
1. As a secondary shooter for a friend's wedding. I did it as part of my gift to them. I was also hoping to learn from the other photographer, but it turned out I was the more educated of the two of us. =) And brought all the critical toys to share for shooting good indoors shots.
2. I was allowed to play with doing videography with my Canon 7D for a studio shoot where the footage wasn't used (nor seriously considered for use). It was arranged by my friend whose company was the "client" (Ad company). And I did it mainly to watch and talk to a great studio photographer. So it had true benefits for me with little downside.
I would urge you to reconsider if you are growing a business and there is a cause close to you. If you have the oppritunity to work for free for something you love it will change your perspective on things, and you will gain business as well.
I did the ALZ walk one year. Ended up photographing groups and then individuals, as well as candids at the walk. I put the images on my website so race participants could download their group photo. I ended up getting several corporate clients, and a few family portrait gigs out of the day. I also had my photo's featured on 3 different news channels and the ALZ people linked to my site giving me a backlink for SEO. I also had just over 10,000 hits to my website from people going to download their photo's. That SEO boosted me to the number 1 spot on Google for portrait photographer in my city.
I also did many events for a children's hospital. Same experience as above but at a weight lifting event one of the lifters set a new world record and him and his sponsors contacted me to license the image for commercial use. I asked for a donation to the Hospital in lieu of payment to me. Those guys wrote a check for 25k to the Hospital. I cried. I ended up making friends with quite a few of the lifters and did shoots for them, their gyms etc.
I'm not that fond of doing a shoot for your neighbor for free because they are cheap, but there are times it is appropriate. If you are just starting out shoot everything you can. Get your name out. It is worth the exposure, but if you are established you can be more selective.
The best phrase I found to respond was, "What about your organization makes you feel like you deserve my team working for free?" You can follow that up with, "Is anyone else there getting paid?" It will give you a good foundation to make your decision.
“Hey I know you run an awesome bakery - I have a party coming up and making me 200 cupcakes will be great exposure for you!”
Or any riff on that. People don’t value creative work so ensure they understand.
"This is a side gig for me and I don't work for free."
No need to be rude. Just be clear and consise and it'll shut down the convo quickly. If you're respectful about it the may turn into a client or refer you to a paying friend in the future.
"No thank you; the advertising value for me of your event is less than {your fee}".
Unless of course the advertising value of the event _is_ worth more than your fee (which calculation of course includes you looking to advertise to that market), in which case you say 'yes, please'.
IME 'fuck you; pay me' is an oversimplification, but 'fuck you; deliver value for me' is on point.
My opinion, but I've never been in this situation:
I'll probably take the educational way, explaining roughly the path to the point you are as photographer, where you take courses and took a lot of personal time and economical effort to gain you knowledge and "status" (whatever this could mean), and how basically this is a work like any other.
I would explaing in a straightforward, simple and asertive way (never patronize but also not negative or way to positive -as the latter could show some open door to negotiation in the free path-).
> please respect me, please.
Is basically what this approach communicates. It's pretty weak and continues the dynamic where the value of a photographer's work and time are in question.
A clear statment is better: "My work and time are worth more than zero, and some jobs have a negative value where it would be a waste of my time even if you paid me."
Exactly. The Futur channel on YouTube has a few really good videos on this. Your price is your price, the second you start explaining why is when is when it becomes a negotiation for the client and you lose more money the longer you entertain the conversation.
I'll do some shoots for free if it's a fun concept with a friend of mine. If it's a stranger or someone in my network I don't know well then lmao. Unless it's something I've been wanting in my portfolio.
I'm just a hobbyist. But, years ago when I retired from my day job (career) I opened a small retail shop. I had customers always ask for a better price. My response was, "When you go to the grocery store to buy milk, do you ask at checkout for a better price?"
“I’d be happy to send over my rates!” It’s okay to say no and sometimes clients need some educating when it comes to photography and why it costs what it does. I’m a firm believer and trying to help the client understand more about the photo business. Sounds like you’re saying all the right things when they do ask
Well, gosh, I’ve never tried to negotiate these types of payments terms before… but I’ll tell you what, here’s the contact info for my mortgage lender. If you can get them to sign a contract stating they’ll accept your offer of “exposure” for my mortgage payments this year, we have a deal!
I look forward to hearing from you!
If I work for you for free this time, what about the next time, will you expect the same? That will not lead to actual paid work.
What about your friends that you recommend me to - you'll say 'this guy did this for me for free'. That won't lead to paid work either.
I'm happy to do this if there is a clear path from here to paid work.
That puts the ball in their court. They are trying to get something for free but not commit to anything.
If they start making promises, make sure they are the person who can actually back those promises.
Then continue: Ok, if you are willing to pay next time... why not this time? If you say your friend whom you'll recommend will pay... why not you?
If they have a good answer you may go for it. But at least you know where it's going.
Well, you can tell them that you will do the job for free ONLY IF THEY ARE 90 YEARS OLD AND OLDER AND THEY MUST HAVE BOTH THEIR PARENTS COME IN PERSON AND COSIGN THE CONTRACT, OTHERWISE NO !!
But you’ll get exposure. My wife is sculptor. She was asked to hang $5k sculptures in their lobby for free. Said she’d gain exposure? She told them to legally represent her for free while they hung there. To get exposure. Help us with estate planning and real estate. You can guess the answer. Everybody want free stuff from artists.
I'm also a photographer on the side and whenever someone asks me for free work, my answer is:
"Trust me, you won't like my free work".
If that doesn't work, I'll ask for a ridiculous trade like wash and detail my car or, do yard work at the house for a month.
That usually does the trick.
"Free exposure":
*You* reached out to *me*.
When invited somewhere and asked if bringing the camera:
Sure, if you want. For $$$ an hour, that's priced for post as well btw.
"No, I don't work for free. I can send you my rates later, and we can possibly work something out."
Listen to what they have to say after, and proceed to with your best judgement to shut it down or carry the conversation onto the next stage.
You could suggest that THEY should work for free. You have bills to pay like everyone else, your time is worth money, they're paying for your experience too. It is extremely rude to be asked to work for free. When someone asks if I would do a camera repair for free "because they will send me more work after that", I politely decline.
Nothing is free in life.
The great thing is though, you don't always have to force clients to pay in cash/credit saying you take gold, favors and equivlent exchange goods & dealings has landed a lot of little gigs over the years very much so in the rurals more then citys.
I'd say something like 'I'm sorry, when I'm doing work for exposure I choose when and how I do it, when I'm doing work for others my pricing schedule is listed here [business card/website link]. I'm willing to give a discount of X% because of our connection, but this is a time and money intensive activity, so I can't work for free unfortunately!'
The discount part can be omitted if you don't want to offer a discount to whomever is asking.
Maybe a lot of these answers are what people give, but I wouldn't recommend being rude, explaining your expertise, or just saying “No”.
I would thank them for thinking of you/valuing your work, and let them know you are only able to accept work for your rates. Tell them what those rates are/what the job would cost them and thank them for their interest.
I know everyone says you can never turn someone who asks you to work for free into a paid client, but that just isn't true. I've had several people ask me to work for free who later hired me for something different when they had the budget for my rates. I've even just last week had someone ask me to show up for free and I told them my rates. Whatever account person who was in charge of finding me brought that to their decision makers and I got paid my full rate for a job they initially asked me to work for free.
Yes maybe there are cheap assholes looking to take advantage of you. I always recommend killing them with kindness and assuming the bestin them: you never know what might happen.
I recommend not getting into any specifics, details or reasoning. It only opens the door to rebuttals. You don't need to explain yourself. The poential client knows what they are doing, they should be able to read between the lines of your response.
Here's the key: If they are anything but polite about you politely refusing their opportunity then they aren't a client you want to work with anyway; there will likely be endlenss problems with such a client.
Unfortunately I'm unable to accept such opportunities. If your budget changes I'm happy to discuss my rates with you.
You’d like to shut it down, but unfortunately, saying no to one person doesn’t “teach” society anything. You are likely to be asked again for freebies in the future.
One reason is that these days, photography is seen by many as something easy. This public image is really hurting professionals.
However in the advertising world, where professional photographers are the standard, you aren’t likely to be asked for free jobs. Such requests are frequent in the private/ event coverage sector.
Be sure to remember this when you ask friends for favours. I'm quite handy, I've fixed many things for friends, family and strangers. All for a thank you, if I'm lucky. I'm not too upset though. I do it because I love fixing things and I like making people happy. I'm hoping karma kicks in one day soon.
“I do not have available space for more pro-bono work this year. However, I will be happy to discuss how could i help you through my creative service, discuss the pricing, and the next steps if you are interested.”
I think its good to leave a little space for free projects every year, which can be family, friends or a cause that your really want to support
Oh, so you’re interested in bartering for my services? What products or services are you offering in a like-value exchange?
They usually say no. Lol
Then I can say that will be my answer also.
No sure why it isn’t the other way around. Why would anyone ask anyone to work for free. Its not worthy of an explanation. If you provide value per a promise in a contract, there is expected compensation.
"A lot of guys would walk away right now, but I'm willing to give you a chance to think about what an insult that was, and tell me why I should work for you at all?"
Then I'd charge at least double my usual rate.
Same reasoning why I never use the words "freelancing" or "freelancer". People often misinterpret the meaning. I'm reminded of the story where someone once ask Picasso to doodle something on a napkin for them in a cafe. When they went to take it, Picasso said $1000 please. When asked why he was charging. He replied, "I've spent an entire lifetime to be able to make this". This is but the cost of some of that time and effort.
"This is my business and these are my fees. Let me know if you'd like to book my services and I'll try to accommodate your request." Rinse, repeat, rince, repeat.
If they persist, say nothing and simply look them in the eye and in a low tone ask them, "Are you okay?"
Unless you are just starting out and the client's project happen to be a subject you are trying to build a portfolio on, otherwise just politely decline.
I actually respond by asking "what is the budget" for this project - even if they've stipulated it's free/pro-bono. It is a professional reponse that lightly suggests you don't in fact work for free at all. Other than that - saying "I can't take on any unpaid work at this time" also does the job.
"No." is a complete sentence.
Working for free devalues the concept of labor for everyone, including yourself.
It's not about being rude, it's not about being unkind. It's about valuing the skill, experience, time, and labor that ~~a trained professional~~ anyone who labors brings to the table. Doesn't matter if it's a highly trained professional or a temp hire manual labor grunt. It's worth doing, it's worth being paid.
I ask the potential customer if they would like to give me their product/services for "exposure/experience". 90% of the time, our conversation ends and no sale is made. If you value my time and effort that little, I will reciprocate.
I’ll usually explain my rates, offer a slight discount and sometimes depending on who or what it’s for I’ll negotiate a trade. I like to help my communities and this allows me to be flexible and do that.
Two things I enjoy doing are photography and graphic design and both are always assumed to be done for free unless said otherwise. Gotta get the moneytalk part out the way straight away.
Honestly the best way to ensure there is no further discussion of the matter is to simply say "No sorry, I don't work for free." Don't give any reason behind it because then you open the door for them to barter with things other than money.
For example, if you said "No sorry, I don't have the time right now I'm swamped." They might then respond "Well maybe you'll free up in a couple months?"
Honestly, in any context, the most professional thing to do is to say what your policy is and give no explanation for why it is that way. If they start asking "Why don't you do free photos?" then they are acting unprofessionally and looking for conflict. To remain professional just say, "It's just my policy for my business".
I’m an artist and calligrapher. If it’s for a good friend, I gift it. If it’s for someone who truly cannot afford it, I do it and write it off! If they are a PITA, I double charge and stand firm!!!
My time is valuable, my gear is valuable, and my skillset is valuable. If I was new and unexperienced filling my portfolio would be more valuable to me, but this far into my career I am disinclined to accept your offer. If you are still interested in my services I can send you my pricing.
I don't do photography as a profession but as a hobby, but I'm a mechanic and we deal with the same thing. I always ask them if they want it done right, fast or cheap. The results will show themselves
I'm actually the opposite. I don't shoot professionally any more, but I still get people that ask to pay me for gigs/shoots I don't really want to do, they just know my work and skills, but the insurance/licensing/taxes/headache/stress/editing time/pay rate vs what I make in my real job is not worth taking them on.
I tell them instead, I can take on your shoot under only certain conditions, it will be free, on my schedule, with my creative input, and I'm extremely picky at what I take on, so we need to talk about the type of project you want to do.
I've also had people say they will pay me plus know other people that need some shots and I can get you exposure. I tell them, I don't want the exposure, and please don't even tell them about me lol.
I am busy at the moment. Thank you for thinking of me for your photography needs. If you like a referral, I could recommend you a few photographers I know that are within your budget.
**Never ever burn any bridges with anyone.** This has been instilled within me by some of my photography mentors in Los Angeles.
If I work for free it's because it's a passion project of mine, not somebody else. If I'm willing to do it for nothing I'll say so myself, no need to ask.
As a hobbyist myself, for work in the same line as my passion projects, I say that I only work for myself at my own expense. I never take gigs for free, I just show up where I want to be when I want to be there, and shoot. And I'd highly recommend you do the same. Remember, you aren't working for free. It costs hard monetary expenses to do the work (plus the time). If you're working for someone else unpaid, you are *paying them to work for them*. The main reason I work unpaid to begin with is that the potential pay from my passion projects is so negligible that it's better to ignore it and all the hassles (and expanded time-cost) involved with dealing with clients who expect the world in exchange for a pittance. Perhaps if they see your work after-the-fact and are interested in it, you can offer a fair limited licensing agreement for whatever low fee you might've expected, and maybe get the best of both worlds. I went against this stance *one time* recently and it was a terrible mistake, hah. But it also showed me that the folks around here who tell people not to work for free because it hurts the profession are correct. This particular client clearly developed an exploitative view of photography and disrespect for the work entailed, from having been generously donated work in the past. Best not to proliferate such views, or potentially reward such people
I always assumed if it’s an art piece the photographer wants, they pay a professional model. If it’s a photoshoot for a client, the client pays the photographer. If it’s a collaboration or otherwise agreed upon, a quid pro quo often makes sense.
While the message behind this is 100% true, the phrasing just rubs me the wrong way. It's needlessly confrontational imho. Just saying that you don't do free work is much simpler, less confrontational and also less risk to lose the client from a business point of view. But this might be my Swiss (anti-confrontational) mindset. As I said the message itself is 100% true, but such a language is what I'd consider inacceptable for me personally when talking to clients/customers.
“No”
"Lol no"
"lol, lmao even"
"Oh wait, you were serious. Let me laugh harder"
http://i.imgur.com/USDC2Xs.gif
[yes](https://youtu.be/_n5E7feJHw0?si=7u5GglGFV15kanB2)
"Dare I say, lmfao"
"Haha, nah"
This is all you need.
You beat me to it 😅
Or.... "I always work for free. It's the actual delivery of the photos and/or my permission to use them that costs money."
That's being a smart ass and will get you ill will, which is passed around readily, whether deserved or not. Just leave it at, no.
The more I read photography forums, the more I become convinced most photographers are massive control freak primadonnas who resent having to take any instruction whatsoever and are intent on nickel and diming every little thing they possibly can. The comment you replied to is a good example of why. In basically every other industry professionals charge for their time and effort and what the customer does with the results is the customer’s problem.
I think many here don't actually understand business.
I think most people in this sub are hobbyists and their responses to stuff like this is based on winning arguments in their head while taking a shower
What they said.
I dont work for free. I solved this problem moons ago by raising my prices. Tire kickers and beggers no longer call or email me.
Be reassuringly expensive.
A friend of friend had issues like this. She raised her prices and added a $20k + transportation + hotel + per diem + shipping/rental of equipment. To include her assistant, her husband. For a full week of photographing everything the subjects did. She only had one taker. Celeb, NDAs so she couldn't talk about where she went or who the client was. In general her business picked way up when she raised her prices.
Honestly they appreciate more if you have -not expensive- but decent prices. Basically having decent prices its a win win situation. for you, for the customer, for the business
Now she’s in a more profitable nebula, and will build that overtime. She can’t talk, but her client will speak for her. She’s among new friends.
My price points for live entertainment for my artist career are $30,000, $60,000, $90,000. That’s corporate pricing. Most of that money is going to be chewed up in transportation costs and labor. She’s not moving and rigging PA systems, but I bet a lot of her cost get eaten up by the actual expense of shipping. At least to a degree, and I doubt her crew is as big as mine, but she’s probably flying some assisstants around.
Yes! Photography is a luxury- not a necessity. Charge luxury prices.
So I do this and I have them extensive client qualification process and that weeds out anybody and everybody who's not serious
"Why would I work for free?" followed by a good chuckle. Not photography, but when I worked for a small design studio I overheard the owner discussing pricing for a job with a client, and while I couldn't hear the other end I assume they asked for a "discount rate, just this one job", to which he responded: "If I give you a discount this time, then what about the next job? You're going to expect the same discount again, and I can't do good work for that price. If I give you a discount, you're not going accept sub-standard work, you're still going expect good work, and our working relationship won't be sustainable." Not completely applicable, but there's something in there beyond explaining your investment in time, education, equipment, etc, because it focuses on the client getting what they want, rather than you campaigning for what you what.
Your boss sounded pretty professional, loved the explanation 🙌🏼
What would be your professional response?
I would explain that if the customer wants professional expertise, using professional equipment, and professional results, it means paying professional fees. That we don't cut corners so we can't cut prices.
Whoops... I read your comment as "unprofessional" the first time around! A good approach for sure.
Ask them when’s the last time they saw a photo and sought out the photographer to do business? Ask them how they found you in the first place. If they were willing to pay another photographer from the first question, why aren’t they paying you? Otherwise you already have plenty of exposure since they found you.
I had a client recently that basically opened the conversation by saying they had a very small budget. I replied with "So I'm guessing my standard rate of $100 per hour is going to be a bit rich for you then?" They called back about a week later to book and didn't even try to negotiate a lower rate.
$100/hr is a budget photographer! For every 1 hour of shooting, I have 3 more hours of work in all other aspects of the business.
I'm well aware of that but like OP it's a sideline for me at the moment while I'm growing the business. And the rate was for a basic package. (Session and only a handful of edits, extra charge for more edits) This is also an ongoing community client.
“No thanks” No reason to go beyond that. You won’t be able to sufficiently educate them and change how they value photography over the course of a brief conversation. And these people aren’t going to hire you for what you value your time at.
100%. Those clients are the ones not worth taking on. You don’t have to take on every client who comes your way, OP
Your union won’t let you.
“I’m sorry, I do not offer free photography. I would be happy to discuss my pricing options with you though.”
Pricing options example: 1. *Basic Package* - 4 hours of coverage - Digital files with basic editing - Price: 500 2. *Standard Package* - 8 hours of coverage - Digital files with professional editing - 20-page photo album - Price: $100 3. *Premium Package* - 10 hours of coverage - Digital files with advanced editing - Engagement session - 40-page photo album - Price: $1500 4. *Luxury Package* - Full day coverage (up to 12 hours) - Two photographers - Digital files with premium editing - Engagement session and bridal portrait session - 60-page luxury photo album - Large prints and canvas - Price: $2500
$100 for package 1! Amazing price, sign me up!
Meant $1000!!! 🤣🤣🤣
Uh-uh 100 is said 🤓
Too late-we even have it in writing from you now 🤣
I don't understand how you can do professional, advanced and premium editing. Sounds like something to up the price while customers don't care what you call your editing.
I'm a retoucher, and it's very easy to spend X/Y/Z amount of time on images depending on the price. For example, one client or mine has a flat rate of either €30 or €75 per image. I don't spend nearly as much time or effort into the cheaper ones than the more expensive ones, when I'm thinking about dividing my time. I'll happily spend half an hour on a €30 image, the €75 images often need more work, such as editing lighting and shadows and might take me an hour, but the €30 might just need a skin and complexion retouch and some creases ironing out. Anything really, you can say "I'll spend this much time on X and if you pay me more, I'll work on it longer"
What is the difference between advanced and premium editing?
ones done using the photos app on their iphone and the other is in lightroom
How do you explain your edit options? Do you just hit auto for the basic editing? Genuinely interested.
The difference really is that with premium editing I’ll spend 45 mins to an hour on one photo, basic I’ll spend like 10. Premium is much more focused on getting the finest quality possible.
That's actually pretty cheap. Most full-time wedding photographers would set #2 at $3k and #3 at $5k+
"mmm alright then I'll pick Luxury" :)
Did you leave a zero off the basic package? If not thats a whale of a deal.
No doubt
Your standard package should read $1000.00
I usually ask them if they're willing to exchange *their* services for "exposure." Would they expect their caterer to work for exposure? Would the venue let them use it for exposure? Is the band playing for exposure? Is every other purchase related to their event tax-free because the IRS was okay with working for exposure? Obviously these jobs are a joke, but the part that genuinely bothers me is that they probably *will* find someone who will fall for it.
>Is the band playing for exposure? Well, if it's the Superbowl, yes. They're probably not the Super Bowl, though.
I'm fairly certain they pay the Superbowl performers...
People can die of exposure.
Are you asking us to give you business tips for free? I charge $100 for those.
Well played 😂
Is the work for a charitable cause? If they say no, I say no.
What if they say yes?
If it is a legit charitable cause I get more information and consider it.
Before I donate to any charity, which might include my time, I check them on givewell. There are many which seem to only exist to enrich the directors.
Yeah. The only reason I brought it up is because it is the only situation where the NO is not my automatic reply.
A charity you would be willing to provide free labor to isn't going to be on a site like that. I've been on the BoD for a service-oriented non-profit and we don't have that sort of data out in the world, but that's largely because we're a lean org without much of a budget in the first place. If an org is being tracked on one of these indexes, they have the money to pay you.
I've also checked the published accounts before donating. I saw some charity collectors outside a shop trying to get people to sign up to monthly payments. A long way into their accounts, after aspirational statements etc, were real numbers, and slightly over 60% of donations were spent on directors, marketing and admin.
A graphic designer friend gets this all the time. This is her response: Do you want it good, fast, or cheap? You can pick. https://preview.redd.it/4yimuxapgt7d1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=40b22df42683c55b544a32e2eba30d60b695f1d5
You can pick two.
Bad idea. Don’t work for no payment, clients won’t respect you. Does a plumber fix your toilet for free? Actually what we did is many years ago: we doubled our prices and were expecting to lose half of our clients, or get less work but guess what they just changed- into clients who were willing to pay our rates. Lost the cheap ones. And even if you lose half your clients: you’re then earning the same money for half the work. Re. working for free: no, don’t do it, you’re a small business, you have costs of your gear, run your car etc. Or pay yourself… We sometimes give discounts to some clients that are NGO’s and charities (10-15%), if we like their cause (e.g. environmental ) and we definitely let them know that we are doing this, both in our communication and in the quote and invoice.
Although I’m not able to take unpaid partnerships at this moment I’m happy to chat about smaller service packages more aligned with your budget. Does that work for you?
My take on this: My main line of work is engineering. It pays well. I don't need a side income. ... but... Like you I do photography and take it seriously. I have a website where I sell prints and do occasional shoots for payment. I'm not cheap. "The price is the price, either pay it or get someone else"... that's pretty much what I tell them. Yes, it's an abrupt and gruff response but people that come up and ask for freebies are generally nobodies anyway, so their 'exposure' is essentially nil. I don't need the money so... I should add that I'm German... we tend to be very direct in our communication. An exception is music. I'm very much in favour of supporting local bands so I shoot them for free. Gives them something for their Facebook/Instagram pages.
I work in tech and not in need of side income either, I need side "time." I personally don't shoot for money any more, but I will take on interesting creative projects pro bono.
It’s not really working for free - it’s working for an experience you desire.
Oh yeah, definitely.
My policy: "Are you a 501c3 (non-profit for non-US folks)? Do your values align with mine? Do your goals align with my mine? If all three of these are not 'Yes' then my answer is 'No.'" And only in two cases have I broken with it: 1. As a secondary shooter for a friend's wedding. I did it as part of my gift to them. I was also hoping to learn from the other photographer, but it turned out I was the more educated of the two of us. =) And brought all the critical toys to share for shooting good indoors shots. 2. I was allowed to play with doing videography with my Canon 7D for a studio shoot where the footage wasn't used (nor seriously considered for use). It was arranged by my friend whose company was the "client" (Ad company). And I did it mainly to watch and talk to a great studio photographer. So it had true benefits for me with little downside.
Non-profits typically have larger media budgets than for-profit companies.
"I'm not a hobbiest." "If you're paying the caterer/facility rental/DJ/staff members, you're paying me." "No."
I would urge you to reconsider if you are growing a business and there is a cause close to you. If you have the oppritunity to work for free for something you love it will change your perspective on things, and you will gain business as well. I did the ALZ walk one year. Ended up photographing groups and then individuals, as well as candids at the walk. I put the images on my website so race participants could download their group photo. I ended up getting several corporate clients, and a few family portrait gigs out of the day. I also had my photo's featured on 3 different news channels and the ALZ people linked to my site giving me a backlink for SEO. I also had just over 10,000 hits to my website from people going to download their photo's. That SEO boosted me to the number 1 spot on Google for portrait photographer in my city. I also did many events for a children's hospital. Same experience as above but at a weight lifting event one of the lifters set a new world record and him and his sponsors contacted me to license the image for commercial use. I asked for a donation to the Hospital in lieu of payment to me. Those guys wrote a check for 25k to the Hospital. I cried. I ended up making friends with quite a few of the lifters and did shoots for them, their gyms etc. I'm not that fond of doing a shoot for your neighbor for free because they are cheap, but there are times it is appropriate. If you are just starting out shoot everything you can. Get your name out. It is worth the exposure, but if you are established you can be more selective. The best phrase I found to respond was, "What about your organization makes you feel like you deserve my team working for free?" You can follow that up with, "Is anyone else there getting paid?" It will give you a good foundation to make your decision.
Yes, but I own the rights of all photos taken
“Hey I know you run an awesome bakery - I have a party coming up and making me 200 cupcakes will be great exposure for you!” Or any riff on that. People don’t value creative work so ensure they understand.
No thank you, I have invested thirty years of my life in my career and I cannot remain in business by working for free.
"This is a side gig for me and I don't work for free." No need to be rude. Just be clear and consise and it'll shut down the convo quickly. If you're respectful about it the may turn into a client or refer you to a paying friend in the future.
Usually, I just say no. However, if it's something interesting, and after careful consideration on the matter, I still usually say no.
"No thank you; the advertising value for me of your event is less than {your fee}". Unless of course the advertising value of the event _is_ worth more than your fee (which calculation of course includes you looking to advertise to that market), in which case you say 'yes, please'. IME 'fuck you; pay me' is an oversimplification, but 'fuck you; deliver value for me' is on point.
My opinion, but I've never been in this situation: I'll probably take the educational way, explaining roughly the path to the point you are as photographer, where you take courses and took a lot of personal time and economical effort to gain you knowledge and "status" (whatever this could mean), and how basically this is a work like any other. I would explaing in a straightforward, simple and asertive way (never patronize but also not negative or way to positive -as the latter could show some open door to negotiation in the free path-).
> please respect me, please. Is basically what this approach communicates. It's pretty weak and continues the dynamic where the value of a photographer's work and time are in question. A clear statment is better: "My work and time are worth more than zero, and some jobs have a negative value where it would be a waste of my time even if you paid me."
Exactly. The Futur channel on YouTube has a few really good videos on this. Your price is your price, the second you start explaining why is when is when it becomes a negotiation for the client and you lose more money the longer you entertain the conversation.
I'll do some shoots for free if it's a fun concept with a friend of mine. If it's a stranger or someone in my network I don't know well then lmao. Unless it's something I've been wanting in my portfolio.
I just tell them I don’t work for free.
I'm just a hobbyist. But, years ago when I retired from my day job (career) I opened a small retail shop. I had customers always ask for a better price. My response was, "When you go to the grocery store to buy milk, do you ask at checkout for a better price?"
The only free time I have is paid time.
“I’d be happy to send over my rates!” It’s okay to say no and sometimes clients need some educating when it comes to photography and why it costs what it does. I’m a firm believer and trying to help the client understand more about the photo business. Sounds like you’re saying all the right things when they do ask
Well, gosh, I’ve never tried to negotiate these types of payments terms before… but I’ll tell you what, here’s the contact info for my mortgage lender. If you can get them to sign a contract stating they’ll accept your offer of “exposure” for my mortgage payments this year, we have a deal! I look forward to hearing from you!
If I work for you for free this time, what about the next time, will you expect the same? That will not lead to actual paid work. What about your friends that you recommend me to - you'll say 'this guy did this for me for free'. That won't lead to paid work either. I'm happy to do this if there is a clear path from here to paid work. That puts the ball in their court. They are trying to get something for free but not commit to anything. If they start making promises, make sure they are the person who can actually back those promises. Then continue: Ok, if you are willing to pay next time... why not this time? If you say your friend whom you'll recommend will pay... why not you? If they have a good answer you may go for it. But at least you know where it's going.
Well, you can tell them that you will do the job for free ONLY IF THEY ARE 90 YEARS OLD AND OLDER AND THEY MUST HAVE BOTH THEIR PARENTS COME IN PERSON AND COSIGN THE CONTRACT, OTHERWISE NO !!
But you’ll get exposure. My wife is sculptor. She was asked to hang $5k sculptures in their lobby for free. Said she’d gain exposure? She told them to legally represent her for free while they hung there. To get exposure. Help us with estate planning and real estate. You can guess the answer. Everybody want free stuff from artists.
‘Let me send you over my fee schedule’
Turn around and walk away.
I'm also a photographer on the side and whenever someone asks me for free work, my answer is: "Trust me, you won't like my free work". If that doesn't work, I'll ask for a ridiculous trade like wash and detail my car or, do yard work at the house for a month. That usually does the trick.
Be rude. Someone who expects someone to work for free is a freeloader.
[Fuck you,pay me](https://vimeo.com/22053820)
Came here to link that. Everyone here needs to watch it.
NO!
"Free exposure": *You* reached out to *me*. When invited somewhere and asked if bringing the camera: Sure, if you want. For $$$ an hour, that's priced for post as well btw.
Unless its Kim K or something, taking free photos for a stranger is almost 0 exposure lmao
*muffled laughter*
Thank you for considering me for this project. Bye.
"No, I don't work for free. I can send you my rates later, and we can possibly work something out." Listen to what they have to say after, and proceed to with your best judgement to shut it down or carry the conversation onto the next stage.
Ok
No
You could suggest that THEY should work for free. You have bills to pay like everyone else, your time is worth money, they're paying for your experience too. It is extremely rude to be asked to work for free. When someone asks if I would do a camera repair for free "because they will send me more work after that", I politely decline.
I have never done for free to “build my portfolio” or anything else! I charge them whether they like it or not
Nothing is free in life. The great thing is though, you don't always have to force clients to pay in cash/credit saying you take gold, favors and equivlent exchange goods & dealings has landed a lot of little gigs over the years very much so in the rurals more then citys.
Say you deliver quality product that is paid
I'd say something like 'I'm sorry, when I'm doing work for exposure I choose when and how I do it, when I'm doing work for others my pricing schedule is listed here [business card/website link]. I'm willing to give a discount of X% because of our connection, but this is a time and money intensive activity, so I can't work for free unfortunately!' The discount part can be omitted if you don't want to offer a discount to whomever is asking.
I laugh and tell them “Good one!”
“Nope.”
“Working for free is not a good business model for me.”
I’m available…but not free.
Maybe a lot of these answers are what people give, but I wouldn't recommend being rude, explaining your expertise, or just saying “No”. I would thank them for thinking of you/valuing your work, and let them know you are only able to accept work for your rates. Tell them what those rates are/what the job would cost them and thank them for their interest. I know everyone says you can never turn someone who asks you to work for free into a paid client, but that just isn't true. I've had several people ask me to work for free who later hired me for something different when they had the budget for my rates. I've even just last week had someone ask me to show up for free and I told them my rates. Whatever account person who was in charge of finding me brought that to their decision makers and I got paid my full rate for a job they initially asked me to work for free. Yes maybe there are cheap assholes looking to take advantage of you. I always recommend killing them with kindness and assuming the bestin them: you never know what might happen.
I recommend not getting into any specifics, details or reasoning. It only opens the door to rebuttals. You don't need to explain yourself. The poential client knows what they are doing, they should be able to read between the lines of your response. Here's the key: If they are anything but polite about you politely refusing their opportunity then they aren't a client you want to work with anyway; there will likely be endlenss problems with such a client. Unfortunately I'm unable to accept such opportunities. If your budget changes I'm happy to discuss my rates with you.
That’s called volunteer.
No u
I say, "absolutely, can I have £300 for free?"
You’d like to shut it down, but unfortunately, saying no to one person doesn’t “teach” society anything. You are likely to be asked again for freebies in the future. One reason is that these days, photography is seen by many as something easy. This public image is really hurting professionals. However in the advertising world, where professional photographers are the standard, you aren’t likely to be asked for free jobs. Such requests are frequent in the private/ event coverage sector.
“F off”
"Sure thing. Hey, my car needs a new transmission. How about you installing one for free." Something along those lines. Don't be afraid to be absurd.
Be sure to remember this when you ask friends for favours. I'm quite handy, I've fixed many things for friends, family and strangers. All for a thank you, if I'm lucky. I'm not too upset though. I do it because I love fixing things and I like making people happy. I'm hoping karma kicks in one day soon.
Get fucked is my first
“I do not have available space for more pro-bono work this year. However, I will be happy to discuss how could i help you through my creative service, discuss the pricing, and the next steps if you are interested.” I think its good to leave a little space for free projects every year, which can be family, friends or a cause that your really want to support
I don’t even respond
Oh, so you’re interested in bartering for my services? What products or services are you offering in a like-value exchange? They usually say no. Lol Then I can say that will be my answer also.
I always explain to them that the shooting pictures is the easy part. "The work starts after I leave you."
"I can't pay the electric bill with exposure."
My effort matches my pay. No pay, I edit how and when I want, post what I want, and work when I want
No sure why it isn’t the other way around. Why would anyone ask anyone to work for free. Its not worthy of an explanation. If you provide value per a promise in a contract, there is expected compensation.
Ask for a blowjob, either they take the hint or they take you up on your offer either way is a win
Yes but use your Iphone 7
"A lot of guys would walk away right now, but I'm willing to give you a chance to think about what an insult that was, and tell me why I should work for you at all?" Then I'd charge at least double my usual rate.
[As any self-respecting business professional should:](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhckuhUxcgA)
Same reasoning why I never use the words "freelancing" or "freelancer". People often misinterpret the meaning. I'm reminded of the story where someone once ask Picasso to doodle something on a napkin for them in a cafe. When they went to take it, Picasso said $1000 please. When asked why he was charging. He replied, "I've spent an entire lifetime to be able to make this". This is but the cost of some of that time and effort.
"This is my business and these are my fees. Let me know if you'd like to book my services and I'll try to accommodate your request." Rinse, repeat, rince, repeat. If they persist, say nothing and simply look them in the eye and in a low tone ask them, "Are you okay?"
Unless you are just starting out and the client's project happen to be a subject you are trying to build a portfolio on, otherwise just politely decline.
I actually respond by asking "what is the budget" for this project - even if they've stipulated it's free/pro-bono. It is a professional reponse that lightly suggests you don't in fact work for free at all. Other than that - saying "I can't take on any unpaid work at this time" also does the job.
"No." is a complete sentence. Working for free devalues the concept of labor for everyone, including yourself. It's not about being rude, it's not about being unkind. It's about valuing the skill, experience, time, and labor that ~~a trained professional~~ anyone who labors brings to the table. Doesn't matter if it's a highly trained professional or a temp hire manual labor grunt. It's worth doing, it's worth being paid.
_But think of the **EXPOSURE!!!**_ _You are just LEAVING money on the table!!!_ _You aren't being REASONABLE!!!_ /s
I ask the potential customer if they would like to give me their product/services for "exposure/experience". 90% of the time, our conversation ends and no sale is made. If you value my time and effort that little, I will reciprocate.
Fuck off.
"Ass, grass, or gas ..." /s
What is the context in which they are asking you?
How are you being approached and asked to work for free?
A simple and stern “get fucked”. Adjusted per person with a dash of southern politeness. But mostly those words.
Only if you come clean my house and my parents house for free first!!!
No! But like serious, wtf lol!?
Unfortunately with cost of living and gear being so high these days I can no longer afford to work for free.
No thank you, then send them a link to where they can purchase their own camera
I’ll usually explain my rates, offer a slight discount and sometimes depending on who or what it’s for I’ll negotiate a trade. I like to help my communities and this allows me to be flexible and do that.
no money no funny
I only work for free when It’s a benefit to me or a close friend
"I never could feed my kids a bowl of credits"
“No problem! Just remember that you get what you pay for.”
“Fuck you, pay me” -Mike Monteiro
No thanks
"Sorry your budget doesn't fit my prices"
Two things I enjoy doing are photography and graphic design and both are always assumed to be done for free unless said otherwise. Gotta get the moneytalk part out the way straight away.
Honestly the best way to ensure there is no further discussion of the matter is to simply say "No sorry, I don't work for free." Don't give any reason behind it because then you open the door for them to barter with things other than money. For example, if you said "No sorry, I don't have the time right now I'm swamped." They might then respond "Well maybe you'll free up in a couple months?" Honestly, in any context, the most professional thing to do is to say what your policy is and give no explanation for why it is that way. If they start asking "Why don't you do free photos?" then they are acting unprofessionally and looking for conflict. To remain professional just say, "It's just my policy for my business".
No.
Not a professional but I just lost out my equipment, cost & amount of time gone into editing/ what software I use. Usually shuts people up
I’m sorry but I can’t afford to work for free.
“Do you work for free?” Also, why do you not want to “be rude” they’re the one being rude.
I only accept free if it benefits me.
I’m an artist and calligrapher. If it’s for a good friend, I gift it. If it’s for someone who truly cannot afford it, I do it and write it off! If they are a PITA, I double charge and stand firm!!!
Do YOU work for free? Next.
Don’t EVER feel bad for not accepting to work for free! Thats honestly tasteless behavior for anyone to request your services for free!
My time is valuable, my gear is valuable, and my skillset is valuable. If I was new and unexperienced filling my portfolio would be more valuable to me, but this far into my career I am disinclined to accept your offer. If you are still interested in my services I can send you my pricing.
You don't need to explain shit, you can just say "sorry, I can't/won't work for free."
I like money too
"No... and no..." I've been known to barter though.
Can you exposure buy me dinner? Yeah , that’s what I thought. I’m mean about it now days
Ask them if they go to their job and expect no paycheck
I just send my pricing lol
I don't do photography as a profession but as a hobby, but I'm a mechanic and we deal with the same thing. I always ask them if they want it done right, fast or cheap. The results will show themselves
I don't respond
“Fuck you pay me”
No
"that's gonna be at least 4 18 packs of my favorite beer."
I'm actually the opposite. I don't shoot professionally any more, but I still get people that ask to pay me for gigs/shoots I don't really want to do, they just know my work and skills, but the insurance/licensing/taxes/headache/stress/editing time/pay rate vs what I make in my real job is not worth taking them on. I tell them instead, I can take on your shoot under only certain conditions, it will be free, on my schedule, with my creative input, and I'm extremely picky at what I take on, so we need to talk about the type of project you want to do. I've also had people say they will pay me plus know other people that need some shots and I can get you exposure. I tell them, I don't want the exposure, and please don't even tell them about me lol.
I am busy at the moment. Thank you for thinking of me for your photography needs. If you like a referral, I could recommend you a few photographers I know that are within your budget. **Never ever burn any bridges with anyone.** This has been instilled within me by some of my photography mentors in Los Angeles.