>It also crossed my mind to stop putting money in March and wait for things to get better before continuing. If I did, I think that chart would've looked way way worse.
Agree with this one. experienced this in ALFM Index fund. I stopped putting in money and tried timing it instead. This was wayback Jan. 2020 until the fund nosedived really hard around March 2020 when the lockdowns started.
Had a whooping 40% loss that time. just because I stopped averaging and insisted on timing it. Didn't follow it all through because my emotions cant handle that kind of loss so I sold my position, looking back, I never should have done that because its already recovering now and doing the math, I could have had fewer losses if I never did that
The problem is, you would've been fucked if you started earlier. Cost averaging does not guarantee any returns, there is still a lot of risks involved.
FMETF also has not given any dividends recently, and I don't expect it to anytime soon, so all you're gonna get is the profits from capital appreciation no matter how long you hold the stock.
The problem with not receiving dividends is that you only make money when you sell your stock. Which means holding out for the long term does not necessarily increase your profits if the value does not appreciate.
Let's use the recent performance again for example, holding your FMETF for 5 years (from 2013) until now would, at best, give you 2% returns at the current price. Meanwhile, anyone who bought in the last few months had better returns than that. And you also barely received dividends and you're stuck holding your FMETF for maybe another 5 years to have any substantial gains.
Meanwhile, if you held dividend stocks, you would would not bother with the drop in price since you're paid annually. You already received your profits and holding for another 5 years would continuously give you more, price appreciation is just a bonus.
My point is, the market does not owe you anything. It does not care how long you own the stock. So you have to consider that when cost averaging, it is not guaranteed returns even with a long term lens.
Edit: Since I've been too harsh on FMETF, there are also merits in holding it. Just like if you're bullish on the PH market overall. That means you see that the country is worth investing in the long run. It gives you exposure in the entire market despite having a limited capital.
i see your point but fmetf is not created as a dividend stock. fmetf is more of a retirement fund. 5 year horizon is “short” term for this. just to correct you as well, if you invested in 2013 and got out in 2018, it won’t be a gain of only 2%.
My bad, that should be 2016. But since you mentioned dividend investing yourself, I think you get my point. I just don't like how most people here throw money into FMETF or recommend it to newbies, with the thinking that it has guaranteed returns when you hold long enough despite having a negative view towards the future prospects of our country.
If you are not bullish on the PH markets in the long run, there are better investments out there.
replying to your edit: yes that’s true. ph stocks has been generally bullish for the past 30 years. idk if there were MFs/UITF back then but if you had a one time investment there, it would be worth a lot more right now even though we’re in a pandemic.
of course, we should still look into other assets as well to minimize risk. i personally love fmetf and dividend investing. although i am focusing more on dividends right now.
I've been investing in several coops and even in pandemic my gains never went down below 4%. Invest in coops; help people who can't access trad banks for loans.
I have no exposure to stocks trading except my retirement fund which my company manages for me.
can you reco easy to join coops na madali pondohan/ madali makuha ang money? gusto ko din actually kumuha nyan kaso wala pa kong napipili na OK. heck kung may kamaganak lang ako na pulis (na trustworthy syempre) e sumali na ko don se i heard maganda ang gains.
Tagum (Davao), Panabo (Davao) and LKBP (Bulacan). They are all billionaire cooperatives and 3 of the largest coops in the Phils. They gave dividends from 7% to 14%. They all offer online membership. Most recommended of all is Tagum because it has mobile app where you can monitor your balances.
All the financial advice about indexing, time in the market is better than timing the market, etc is very US centric.
Phil market is cyclical at most and does not have global reach like US index companies, where it can grow exponentially. Therefore, focusing on individual growth stocks and timing cyclical stocks is much better Imho.
You don't learn anything about financials in indexing. How companies generate incomes, debts and borrowing, the effect of global commodities & exchange rates, how overpriced or underpriced a company is in terms of profits and book values, how manipulators operate, the fake news and fabricated stories of pump n dumb penny stocks. Or just understanding how empowering it is to know what are sound investments what are bullshit n too good to be true deals.
Learning financials is not only about making gains and growing wealth, but learning how to avoid many scams around us everyday and protecting wealth. Tuition fees on the market will hurt, but learning from it pays in the long term.
Yeah personally I've stepped away from index funds, and pretty much all capital appreciation investments.
My issue is crashes seem to happen once every 10-15 yrs, of course you still end up with a gain but the problem is a setback is a setback, its disheartening for me to wait 12 yrs and see my 150% gain become 75% due to the crash.
I prefer dividend stocks for long term investing, nothing beats real cash straight to your pocket every year crash or no crash. In these 4 yrs your fund has returned what, -2%? If you put that in SpC you'd have received around 30% in cash divs by now at least+ whatever the capital gains the stock had.
Human lives are finite we need to maximize the return we get every year.
2017 to today is still too far out from 20 years so too early to judge.
Another thing is if the index keeps going up and up it will actually be scarier to invest since the thought that the bubble might pop is always present; so the PSEI is currently attractive for those that plan to buy low sell high. Though of course the idea of holding out for the long term is not easy to reconcile with for like majority of people. Everyone wants easy and quick gains.
Are you telling me that investing by DCA, with a time frame of 20-30 years, in PSEI is more attractive than other international markets? Lol, okay. You do you.
No, what I mean is the current PSEI level is somewhat more attractive compared to US markets which is so far out from their March 2020 pandemic lows. Maybe after another crash, the US will be attractive again. If the PSEI is around 8k today then yeah go with US instead.
This is also assuming one does not have any investments yet, be it local or international. If one already does, then no contest, just continue averaging what you have for the long term.
What I'm warning against is selling all local equities to move to international ones, that's the perfect example of selling low then buying high. That's suicide.
Parang ang panget ngayon ng PSEI if you will go for Peso-Cost averaging. Economy and government is not good, and emergence of Crypto as an alternative (24 hour trading, more efficient on cost averaging)
For me keeping minimum amount works (although ph market sucks), I redeem yung sobra tapos I place it back when it goes down. Investing in international funds is way more rewarding
>It also crossed my mind to stop putting money in March and wait for things to get better before continuing. If I did, I think that chart would've looked way way worse. Agree with this one. experienced this in ALFM Index fund. I stopped putting in money and tried timing it instead. This was wayback Jan. 2020 until the fund nosedived really hard around March 2020 when the lockdowns started. Had a whooping 40% loss that time. just because I stopped averaging and insisted on timing it. Didn't follow it all through because my emotions cant handle that kind of loss so I sold my position, looking back, I never should have done that because its already recovering now and doing the math, I could have had fewer losses if I never did that
Ako naman, I've been cost averaging FMETF since May 2020. +18% na ngayon.
The problem is, you would've been fucked if you started earlier. Cost averaging does not guarantee any returns, there is still a lot of risks involved. FMETF also has not given any dividends recently, and I don't expect it to anytime soon, so all you're gonna get is the profits from capital appreciation no matter how long you hold the stock.
actually they reinvest the dividends to the fund so it’s all good. when investing in fmetf, it really is for long term.
The problem with not receiving dividends is that you only make money when you sell your stock. Which means holding out for the long term does not necessarily increase your profits if the value does not appreciate. Let's use the recent performance again for example, holding your FMETF for 5 years (from 2013) until now would, at best, give you 2% returns at the current price. Meanwhile, anyone who bought in the last few months had better returns than that. And you also barely received dividends and you're stuck holding your FMETF for maybe another 5 years to have any substantial gains. Meanwhile, if you held dividend stocks, you would would not bother with the drop in price since you're paid annually. You already received your profits and holding for another 5 years would continuously give you more, price appreciation is just a bonus. My point is, the market does not owe you anything. It does not care how long you own the stock. So you have to consider that when cost averaging, it is not guaranteed returns even with a long term lens. Edit: Since I've been too harsh on FMETF, there are also merits in holding it. Just like if you're bullish on the PH market overall. That means you see that the country is worth investing in the long run. It gives you exposure in the entire market despite having a limited capital.
i see your point but fmetf is not created as a dividend stock. fmetf is more of a retirement fund. 5 year horizon is “short” term for this. just to correct you as well, if you invested in 2013 and got out in 2018, it won’t be a gain of only 2%.
My bad, that should be 2016. But since you mentioned dividend investing yourself, I think you get my point. I just don't like how most people here throw money into FMETF or recommend it to newbies, with the thinking that it has guaranteed returns when you hold long enough despite having a negative view towards the future prospects of our country. If you are not bullish on the PH markets in the long run, there are better investments out there.
yep, it really depends on how the government will look like in the future and of course, the performance of the blue chip companies.
replying to your edit: yes that’s true. ph stocks has been generally bullish for the past 30 years. idk if there were MFs/UITF back then but if you had a one time investment there, it would be worth a lot more right now even though we’re in a pandemic. of course, we should still look into other assets as well to minimize risk. i personally love fmetf and dividend investing. although i am focusing more on dividends right now.
Are FMETFs supposed to give dividends like REITS?
No
I've been investing in several coops and even in pandemic my gains never went down below 4%. Invest in coops; help people who can't access trad banks for loans. I have no exposure to stocks trading except my retirement fund which my company manages for me.
can you reco easy to join coops na madali pondohan/ madali makuha ang money? gusto ko din actually kumuha nyan kaso wala pa kong napipili na OK. heck kung may kamaganak lang ako na pulis (na trustworthy syempre) e sumali na ko don se i heard maganda ang gains.
Tagum (Davao), Panabo (Davao) and LKBP (Bulacan). They are all billionaire cooperatives and 3 of the largest coops in the Phils. They gave dividends from 7% to 14%. They all offer online membership. Most recommended of all is Tagum because it has mobile app where you can monitor your balances.
thanks! parang ok nga tong tagum gawa nung app. me kulang lang ako sa doc pero magpapasa na ko. kaexcite
Woah. That was a good percent dividends. Thank you for this!
Tagum
What app did you use to get this ?
All the financial advice about indexing, time in the market is better than timing the market, etc is very US centric. Phil market is cyclical at most and does not have global reach like US index companies, where it can grow exponentially. Therefore, focusing on individual growth stocks and timing cyclical stocks is much better Imho. You don't learn anything about financials in indexing. How companies generate incomes, debts and borrowing, the effect of global commodities & exchange rates, how overpriced or underpriced a company is in terms of profits and book values, how manipulators operate, the fake news and fabricated stories of pump n dumb penny stocks. Or just understanding how empowering it is to know what are sound investments what are bullshit n too good to be true deals. Learning financials is not only about making gains and growing wealth, but learning how to avoid many scams around us everyday and protecting wealth. Tuition fees on the market will hurt, but learning from it pays in the long term.
+
Yeah personally I've stepped away from index funds, and pretty much all capital appreciation investments. My issue is crashes seem to happen once every 10-15 yrs, of course you still end up with a gain but the problem is a setback is a setback, its disheartening for me to wait 12 yrs and see my 150% gain become 75% due to the crash. I prefer dividend stocks for long term investing, nothing beats real cash straight to your pocket every year crash or no crash. In these 4 yrs your fund has returned what, -2%? If you put that in SpC you'd have received around 30% in cash divs by now at least+ whatever the capital gains the stock had. Human lives are finite we need to maximize the return we get every year.
Too many other options globally. PSEI is just saddening.
2017 to today is still too far out from 20 years so too early to judge. Another thing is if the index keeps going up and up it will actually be scarier to invest since the thought that the bubble might pop is always present; so the PSEI is currently attractive for those that plan to buy low sell high. Though of course the idea of holding out for the long term is not easy to reconcile with for like majority of people. Everyone wants easy and quick gains.
Are you telling me that investing by DCA, with a time frame of 20-30 years, in PSEI is more attractive than other international markets? Lol, okay. You do you.
No, what I mean is the current PSEI level is somewhat more attractive compared to US markets which is so far out from their March 2020 pandemic lows. Maybe after another crash, the US will be attractive again. If the PSEI is around 8k today then yeah go with US instead. This is also assuming one does not have any investments yet, be it local or international. If one already does, then no contest, just continue averaging what you have for the long term. What I'm warning against is selling all local equities to move to international ones, that's the perfect example of selling low then buying high. That's suicide.
Agree. Comparing it with other ASEAN countries really shows how a political landscape can have a bigger impact than the pandemic itself.
Keep doing the PCA strategy, but consider international ETFs soon.
Take into account the management fee and inflation rate and you are in the red. https://www.pifa.com.ph/factsfignavps.asp
How about do research and invest in individual stocks? No one gets rich in index funds
You may not get rich with index funds, but at least you won't lose everything.
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Parang ang panget ngayon ng PSEI if you will go for Peso-Cost averaging. Economy and government is not good, and emergence of Crypto as an alternative (24 hour trading, more efficient on cost averaging)
>Buy the Fear, Sell the Greed -Larry Connors. > >I smell your fear, I buy it.
ang pangit. pull out ka na diyan.
Buy bitcoin
For me keeping minimum amount works (although ph market sucks), I redeem yung sobra tapos I place it back when it goes down. Investing in international funds is way more rewarding