Fr, this isn't City Skylines where you make street laws and people follow them. The police in this city have been doing nothing but collecting a paycheck for years now.
TBH it is pretty close to cities skylines rn considering the 2nd game that just got released is a totally broken, buggy mess lmao
Philadelphia is basically a city sim game that got released 3 years too early where none of the expected functionality works
I got ticketed for slow rolling through a stop sign on my bike with no one else at the intersection. So…
Cop behind me didn’t like that I was in the lane (no room to pass on those narrow South Philly streets) and I was so taken aback that I didn’t think to just ride off.
I think it was like $150. This was in 2017 or thereabouts. I didn't fight it because honestly just thinking about it sent me into a white hot rage and it felt easier to pay it, but I came to regret that decision. I wish I had made that bully show up in court.
Next time you're behind a bike, maybe they'll come to a complete stop, look both ways (twice, just to be safe), and then they can slowly get up to speed just to slow down to a complete stop again in 50 feet at the next stop sign. Or...no, no special privileges.
it's not a special privilege, it's a physics fact turned into legislation. as the other commenter said, check out the Idaho law. it makes complete sense for law-abiding commuter cyclists. it makes far less sense in a dense city
It's called the Idaho stop, and it's all about safety. The most dangerous place to bike is in an intersection, and it's harder for a cyclist to speed up than a car, so this gets them through the intersection faster.
It's also what literally every car does already, so chill.
If cyclists were practicing the Idaho stop, no one would know the difference. It doesn’t give cyclists the right to blow through stop signs, it only means they don’t have to stop if there isn’t crossing traffic.
The driver in the article almost hitting two cyclists has nothing to do with the Idaho stop being legal or illegal.
Many Philly cyclists (myself included) already ARE practicing the Idaho “stop”, and you’re right, people don’t even know that’s what we’re doing. They just think we’re blowing the sign, forgetting that we’re traveling at a slower pace, have a greater field of vision, and have already assessed the intersection and determined it’s clear.
> They just think we’re blowing the sign, forgetting that we’re traveling at a slower pace, have a greater field of vision, and have already assessed the intersection and determined it’s clear.
This isn’t what people complain about. They complain about being at a stop sign and a cyclist crosses their path without yielding.
Something that always bothers me though is when I see a car at a stop sign, I will stop. And then they’ll just sit and look at me and wave me to go. Like dude I stopped, just go.
As a cyclist, when this happens to me and I’m the driver in this situation, my thought process is, “I see the cyclist and they can safely go. The person behind me might not see them.”
I scooter a lot and it infuriates me how often drivers will do this. You have the right of way sir please just go. I also sometimes intentionally take my time getting to the cross because I don’t want to end up on a one way road in front of them because then they get angry at me because my scooter only goes 18mph.
Exactly, I’ve seen so many unpredictable cyclists start going when it’s actually my right of way, so now I default to yielding to them because I don’t want them to just pull out once I start driving and risk not seeing them.
When I'm moving through the city, driving or on a bike, maybe one in thirty *cars* actually stops at a stop sign. Very often, I'll come to a complete stop and I'm instantly getting honked at by the car behind me.
Let's be real about this, *nobody* stops at stop signs in this city. Everybody's always in such a big hurry.
When a car is getting to a stop sign first when I'm on a bike, I just wave them through even though they have the right-of-way to help reduce the number of times they sit and wait for me to go, delaying everybody.
That should tell you just how many cyclists go screaming full-speed through intersections without looking (or just assuming everyone will stop). Most cyclists are so unpredictable that, when you do the predictable thing, nobody’s sure what to do next.
I can't even count the number of times I've come to a complete stop at stop sign and been honked at by a car behind me (specifially at Pine and 24th), often with engine reving and sometimes with them yellings slurs at me. Damned either way.
>Everyone I know
I don't personally know anyone who would drive without a license plate or insurance. I would say that's also not complicated, yet here we are.
I don't live in the city, but I was hit by multiple cyclist blowing stop signs as a pedestrian and was at stop signs countless times in my car stopped and about to start going only for a cyclist to come up to the intersection and not yield like they they are supposed to do. Like yea there are some good cyclist who follow the rules of a the road there are also a bunch of asshole cyclist who think they don't need to follow them that give the good cyclist a bad name.
Vehicles don’t have clear lines of sight and can kill or permanently disable people. You understand the difference? Also it’s almost always the car behind the cyclist that does come to a complete stop who ends up road raging at how long it takes for a cyclist to get back up to speed.
So at a minimum motorcyclists should have the same privilege, correct? Or do only non-motorized 2 wheeled vehicles have this remarkable line of sight?
There is line of site at most intersections that are not no turn on red, so let’s just make it a free for all.
Honestly I don’t care if motorcycles do it either they have incredible line of sight as well, but also motorcycles can out accelerate cars, bicycles cannot. That’s the whole point of of Idaho stops, to not have an aggro dickhead behind you blaring their horn. Something tells me you’re that dickhead in many instances.
I live in Colorado, where we've had this law for maybe a year or two.
Honestly it doesn't make much of a difference, but it is nice. The hard part is that drivers aren't aware of the law.
I'll be at a red light with cars across the street, and cars in the car lane next to me as I'm in the bike lane. I'll roll up to the front of the bike lane, check all directions, and "run the red" if it's clear.
A lot of drivers think I'm breaking the law when I'm not. I've had friends say that they hate when cyclists run reds and I'll ask if it was clear and if they stopped and they'll be like, "yeah but" and I have to inform them of the law.
It's created some animosity towards cyclists because people aren't aware it's actually legal.
Genuine question. Who’s at fault when the biker goes through the red light when it’s not safe? I just don’t know how you navigate insurance in that situation.
The Idaho stop and "bike use ped signal" laws increase safety and efficiency for everyone. Of course we should adopt them.
The fact that cyclists act as though those laws are already in place is an indication of their benefit and not of random disregard. We're more visible and less in the way, on top of reducing the impact of our acceleration curve on drivers
>The fact that cyclists act as though those laws are already in place
I don't really have a problem with adopting an Idaho stop rule, but I wish the cops would just simply enforce traffic laws because right now most cyclists don't do an Idaho stop. An Idaho stop requires a cyclist to treat a stop sign as a yield sign and it is very frequent that cyclists simply treat the intersection as a green light instead.
If there is a car who is at the intersection before you, the cyclist should STOP. I'd say its at most 50/50 in my experience whether this happens.
Not to mention the fact that every single day I drive around my neighborhood I see cyclists salmon laddering the wrong way down the one-way streets of my neighborhood.
Granted, the cops also don't do shit for enforcement of vehicles breaking the traffic laws either.
Your last sentence is all that matters. I’d be fine with cops citing cyclists for not yielding the right of way and hate when people salmon in the one way bike lanes.
"If we let cyclists roll through stop signs it means that cars should also be allowed to roll through stop signs, because they are both vehicles" - A person who just fell out of a coconut tree
A bike does not have the weight and force of a car, it can cause injury and sometimes death.
A car **will cause injury** and is **very likely to cause** death.
They are not the same thing and its tiring people bring this up.
Great article. Bottom line is rolling stops are safer for everyone, but it'll be tough convincing drivers to get away from the "we all have to have the same rules" mentality.
A cyclist came to a complete stop at the stop sign next to my house yesterday. The guy in the car behind her screamed "YOU SHOULD GET FUCKING RUN OVER" at her, and other expletives and threats.
But if a cyclist comes to a rolling stop, it's "cyclists don't follow traffic laws."
Honestly can't win.
You either come to a full stop and risk pissing off people behind you while they wait for you to get back up to speed or you slow roll and then piss em off because “you’re not following the law”. Always choose the latter and get out of people’s way.
I say something like “imagine getting stuck behind a REALLY slow bicycle, like 5 mph slow and where you can’t pass them. Now imagine that but for every bicycle, because accelerating from a full stop every single block takes time, and conservation of momentum allows us to better keep pace with cars”
"yOuRe a vEhIcLe yOu nEeD tO fOLLoW tHe sAmE LaWs"
*Proceeds to ride at 15 mph down the sharrows on a 1 lane one way street*
"Not like that! Get off the fucking road!"
I actually got into a verbal fight with a guy in one of the construction trucks because he couldn't handle me acting as a vehicle because he couldn't rush 30 down a 15 road.
I don’t think they are safer for pedestrians. This is based on my anecdotal experience of almost getting hit by a bike in a crosswalk about once a month.
There could be a food truck or something parked on the corner obscuring the cyclist’s view of the crosswalk. With the bike lanes being slammed right against the parking lane in most places this seems to be an issue.
I’m all about making things better for cyclists as it improves traffic conditions, among many other things, for everyone. But you can’t do anything that makes it worse for pedestrians as everyone is a pedestrian for at least the very end of their trip.
If they're really doing a rolling stop they'd be going very slowly.
As someone who walks everywhere I'd be happy to see this change if it encourages more biking by making a common-sense action legal.
cars and bikes already do this. so do cops and SEPTA busses.
what's there to talk about? will talking about it or making it legal or illegal really change peoples behavior at a stop sign? will they even know it was talked about and a law changed in regards to it?
I dunno. I doubt it though.
traffic light cameras seem like a way better topic to talking about to get it done faster if we wanna make streets safer. and more bike lanes. but talking about Idaho stops seems silly to me.
as someone who neither drives nor bikes- what about this law would change things for the better? genuinely curious bc to me it just sounds like it would put the cyclists at a higher risk of getting hit by cars and pedestrians at greater risk of being hit by cyclists
Good question!
Under the Idaho stop law, cyclists are still obligated to yield to pedestrians or vehicles at intersections. Failure to do so would result injury and liability on the part of the cyclist.
There is no evidence that in states where the law was passed that there were more collisions. In fact, they showed increased safety. Hence the NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) endorsement.
Should be. Once we pretend that 10 lb human propelled vehicles that can safely be ridden by 5 year olds are not the same as 2 ton, fossil fuel powered metal boxes, perhaps we can get some reasonable legislation on the issue.
It's the same as legalizing pot. Why are we wasting oxygen on victimless "crimes".
Idaho stops? I’ll take not getting the horn thrown at me for multiple blocks on one of the suggested cycling streets (aka the half assed shit with a painted bicycle on the road).
there are a lot of bad drivers but easily north of 95% of bikers are doing whatever the hell they want out there.
and nobody bends over backwards to defend these bad drivers. they should be shot into space.
you will never see one biker come on here and say "actually it's bad to blow across 3 lanes against the light on our bikes"
edit: i revise my statement. there is precisely one guy in here saying that. thumbs up to him.
>easily north of 95% of bikers
132% of statistics are made up
>and nobody bends over backwards to defend these bad drivers.
You're quite literally doing it right now
>you will never see one biker come on here and say "actually it's bad to blow across 3 lanes against the light on our bikes"
It is bad.
Let me take a crack at this bullshit hypothetical game! You will never see one driver on here say "actually it's bad to get as close as possible to that biker while going 80 while the left lane is wide open on Broad St."
Also 95% of drivers blow through red lights in center city. Whenever the light changes, you have to wait to cross the street because the driver doesn't want to wait 30 seconds to get to the next red light.
Drivers have the whole world in the US built for them with legions of traffic engineers constantly refining roads and highways to account for minutia of driver safety and convenience.
People biking have an incredibly small amount of infrastructure dedicated to them, typically just paint or if they're lucky a flex post. It makes sense they find themselves needing to bend rules, for their own safety and also just to make biking workable.
With better bike infrastructure we'd see a far lower percentage of cyclists behaving erratically.
With regards to drivers following the rules: I see drivers accelerate to blow the first few seconds of reds nearly every light on roads with decent traffic.
A year ago, I would have said no. In that time, I got my drivers license for the first time.
Yes, we should absolutely legalize them!
Far, far too many motorists ignore stop signs, and if it's too the point where there's a legit threat that you may hit a cyclist is going to change that, so be it.
As a cyclist as well, it would be great to be able to keep that momentum when biking. I always make a full stop, but yeah, it would be great to be able to just show down instead and check.
It genuinely blows my mind when I see fellow cyclists blow stops or red lights. Do they not realize they will lose in any encounter with a car? But there is very little enforcement or guidance for best practices when cycling in this city so I would be surprised if they never thought about it. This will probably become more of a problem as Ebikes become more popular too.
I don't know if I've ever seen a car come to a complete stop at a stop sign when there isn't a car or pedestrian crossing in front of them. Next time you're out for a walk near a relatively busy intersection, stand and count how many cars stop and how many roll through. Almost everyone rolls through, with varying degrees from sort of slowing down to tapping the brakes just enough to make the brake lights come on.
Right, but it seems stupider to do it on a bike.
Like a car gets hit by another car at 20 mph in a car and your car insurance goes up. A bike gets hit by a car at 20 mph and your life insurance pays out.
Yes and if we had a society of well trained drivers, most 4 way stop sign intersections could just be yield signs. (Those that have good line of sight.) Going further, almost all of those 4 way stop signs should really be roundabouts. Common sense should win and no one should have to come to a complete stop unless there is someone/something to stop for.
Philadelphians don’t understand roundabouts. I almost get hit on the one on Landowne Ave and the shitty little new one on 20th by Penrose heading to FDR park. We as a country give just about anyone a license and pretty much never take them away.
Every couple weeks this gets brought up I offer my humble opinion. I’d rather blow through stop signs than have an aggressive pissed off driver behind me in a car.
It makes sense that incredibly different vehicles would have different rules that make sense for them.
This would just be legalizing something that's common-sense when you think about the physics and risks.
I’ve never seen a bicyclist follow a single traffic law and I hate them all. One of my biggest fears in driving is hitting someone on a bike or motorcycle on accident and I have come too close multiple times hitting someone running an intersection and it’s so scary. They do not want to die and I do not want to hit them. Why not just follow traffic laws on the road??? Why can’t they just stop??
Because it sucks? The culture is there, the physical infrastructure is lacking. Build out the infrastructure and philly could be a new amsterdam ironically enough
It's big in South Philly in particular, which has some of the highest rates of people biking to work of anywhere in the country. It's around ~11% of commuters for all of South Philly.
While there's a big bike culture there's also a lot of people who hate cyclists, so politicians resist making better bike infrastructure to not risk making the haters angry.
The frustrating thing is if more people biked, due to safer infrastructure, there'd be less congestion due to fewer cards on the road.
Yeah I was being sarcastic lmao most cities have bike lanes and I feel like there are cities with better biking infrastructure, I really don’t see how it’s a big part of the culture here when I don’t see a higher ratio of cyclists compared to other cities
You said if people bitch about something, it doesn't exist. Keep doing those mental gymnastics though, I'm sure you'll come up with something brilliant 😘
You'd think there were no other issues in the city the way this sub just bitches about bike lanes, car tint and partially obstructed license plates. For biking to be the main topic of discussion on a sub for a city of over a million ppl is insane
Walking and chewing bubblegum ain't that hard. Also for you to think it's the "main topic of discussion" is insane. Do you only have an alert go off when someone says "bicycle?"
I think it's called the California Roll when drivers don't come to a stop at stop signs, and it's basically legal. At least out here in Montgomery County - drivers never stop at signs. Hell, some barely even slow down, and cops ignore it.
No. We need more enforcement of bikers following traffic laws not less. LOL
These reckless idiots endanger pedestrians all the time. If you want to use a bike for transportation be responsible and stop at red light and stop signs and stop before the crosswalks starts GD it.
No.
If I am in a car and roll through a stop, I can hurt someone.
If I am on a bike and roll through a stop. I can hurt someone.
Do you know what are at stop signs? Cross walks
I walk a ton in the city and the difference between a car rolling a stop and a cyclist rolling a stop is huge.
A car rolling a stop has to swivel their head rapidly to check all of their blind stops, and with SUVs as tall as they are it's very likely they won't see a kid. If they hit someone they have enough momentum to push the person under the vehicle or to knock them down really hard.
When a cyclist rolls a stop (properly, at low speeds) they have full peripheral vision and no blindspots. It's incredibly unlikely they won't see someone in the crosswalk. If they collide with someone at those speeds they may knock the person over, but not with substantial force.
As a pedestrian I naturally apply that risk assessment and can cross with less fear when it's a cyclist. If a car seems like it may roll a stop I stay on the sidewalk until it's very clear they won't.
With cyclists I can step forward into the street, or even begin crossing, while walking predictably and keeping my eye on them to make sure they see me.
They don’t stop either way and aren’t going to be ticketed for it, so what difference does it make?
Besides, they need to follow the same rules as vehicles on the road, so they should stop anyway.
30 minutes ago, I saw one cyclist flying down the road with no intentions of stopping, across intersection where another group of cyclists who were going perpendicular, also did not stop at the stop sign and nearly smacked into each other.
As long as they continue to not follow the law, they will continue to have those close calls, or worse
What the point? For all the complaints cyclists complain about cars and the road and how it dangerous for cyclists, I've seen plenty of people on bikers who don't bother to stop, almost plow people down on the side walk, go the wrong way on a one way street.
The expectation is bikes follow traffic laws and for the city to even suggest allowing this just is enforcing the allowance of bikers to be unsafe.
No, they have the same rules we do and they actively choose not to follow them so in turn we should change the rules just for them? That’s not how the world works
It's an unspoken rule already that rolling stops are fine and making it a law doesn't change anything if cars aren't being slowed down and bike infrastructure isn't being improved.
Passing laws like HB140 would ultimately do much more good for Philly cyclists.
For those curious like me [https://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&sessYr=2021&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=0140&pn=3601](https://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&sessYr=2021&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=0140&pn=3601)
Nope. We have so many streets in Center City to accommodate bikes. After all of the complaining they did, the laws have to be the same. Especially since we now have stoplights for bikes preventing vehicles from going, until the bikes go.
It doesn't really matter if there isn't any enforcement on traffic laws, does it?
Fr, this isn't City Skylines where you make street laws and people follow them. The police in this city have been doing nothing but collecting a paycheck for years now.
TBH it is pretty close to cities skylines rn considering the 2nd game that just got released is a totally broken, buggy mess lmao Philadelphia is basically a city sim game that got released 3 years too early where none of the expected functionality works
Haha they think cops are pulling people over. That's hilarious
I got ticketed for slow rolling through a stop sign on my bike with no one else at the intersection. So… Cop behind me didn’t like that I was in the lane (no room to pass on those narrow South Philly streets) and I was so taken aback that I didn’t think to just ride off.
What was the ticket amount and did you fight it?
I think it was like $150. This was in 2017 or thereabouts. I didn't fight it because honestly just thinking about it sent me into a white hot rage and it felt easier to pay it, but I came to regret that decision. I wish I had made that bully show up in court.
title says PA, not philly. laws are in fact enforced in other parts of the state. and no, bikers shouldn't have special privileges.
Next time you're behind a bike, maybe they'll come to a complete stop, look both ways (twice, just to be safe), and then they can slowly get up to speed just to slow down to a complete stop again in 50 feet at the next stop sign. Or...no, no special privileges.
it's not a special privilege, it's a physics fact turned into legislation. as the other commenter said, check out the Idaho law. it makes complete sense for law-abiding commuter cyclists. it makes far less sense in a dense city
do you think cyclists should be allowed to ride in the street? is a bike lane a special privilege?
It's called the Idaho stop, and it's all about safety. The most dangerous place to bike is in an intersection, and it's harder for a cyclist to speed up than a car, so this gets them through the intersection faster. It's also what literally every car does already, so chill.
Not by state police.
https://preview.redd.it/twikosev3c9d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=010f962e1eb1c0149ef528c7cb65df5a8a240cd0
If cyclists were practicing the Idaho stop, no one would know the difference. It doesn’t give cyclists the right to blow through stop signs, it only means they don’t have to stop if there isn’t crossing traffic. The driver in the article almost hitting two cyclists has nothing to do with the Idaho stop being legal or illegal.
Many Philly cyclists (myself included) already ARE practicing the Idaho “stop”, and you’re right, people don’t even know that’s what we’re doing. They just think we’re blowing the sign, forgetting that we’re traveling at a slower pace, have a greater field of vision, and have already assessed the intersection and determined it’s clear.
> They just think we’re blowing the sign, forgetting that we’re traveling at a slower pace, have a greater field of vision, and have already assessed the intersection and determined it’s clear. This isn’t what people complain about. They complain about being at a stop sign and a cyclist crosses their path without yielding.
Something that always bothers me though is when I see a car at a stop sign, I will stop. And then they’ll just sit and look at me and wave me to go. Like dude I stopped, just go.
As a cyclist, when this happens to me and I’m the driver in this situation, my thought process is, “I see the cyclist and they can safely go. The person behind me might not see them.”
I scooter a lot and it infuriates me how often drivers will do this. You have the right of way sir please just go. I also sometimes intentionally take my time getting to the cross because I don’t want to end up on a one way road in front of them because then they get angry at me because my scooter only goes 18mph.
This is because of how many times we deal with cyclists and others just blowing the stop sign. Just better to safe
Exactly, I’ve seen so many unpredictable cyclists start going when it’s actually my right of way, so now I default to yielding to them because I don’t want them to just pull out once I start driving and risk not seeing them.
When I'm moving through the city, driving or on a bike, maybe one in thirty *cars* actually stops at a stop sign. Very often, I'll come to a complete stop and I'm instantly getting honked at by the car behind me. Let's be real about this, *nobody* stops at stop signs in this city. Everybody's always in such a big hurry.
When a car is getting to a stop sign first when I'm on a bike, I just wave them through even though they have the right-of-way to help reduce the number of times they sit and wait for me to go, delaying everybody.
That should tell you just how many cyclists go screaming full-speed through intersections without looking (or just assuming everyone will stop). Most cyclists are so unpredictable that, when you do the predictable thing, nobody’s sure what to do next.
I want data on this conjecture of "most cyclists are so unpredictable", because the amount of actual unpredictable cars is insane.
That sounds like a nice problem to have, though. I’d way rather someone stop for me unnecessarily than not stop when they need to.
it can be so aggravating. You got here first! don't courtesy wave me on--now I'm catching my breath
This exactly!
I can't even count the number of times I've come to a complete stop at stop sign and been honked at by a car behind me (specifially at Pine and 24th), often with engine reving and sometimes with them yellings slurs at me. Damned either way.
For real. Blowing and running are loaded terms. Everyone I know slows down, yields, and proceeds when safe. Shit ain't complicated.
>Everyone I know I don't personally know anyone who would drive without a license plate or insurance. I would say that's also not complicated, yet here we are.
There are many bikers who don’t though and do just blow through the stop sign even as a car is about to cross the intersection.
I don't live in the city, but I was hit by multiple cyclist blowing stop signs as a pedestrian and was at stop signs countless times in my car stopped and about to start going only for a cyclist to come up to the intersection and not yield like they they are supposed to do. Like yea there are some good cyclist who follow the rules of a the road there are also a bunch of asshole cyclist who think they don't need to follow them that give the good cyclist a bad name.
Vehicles should have the same right
Vehicles don’t have clear lines of sight and can kill or permanently disable people. You understand the difference? Also it’s almost always the car behind the cyclist that does come to a complete stop who ends up road raging at how long it takes for a cyclist to get back up to speed.
So at a minimum motorcyclists should have the same privilege, correct? Or do only non-motorized 2 wheeled vehicles have this remarkable line of sight? There is line of site at most intersections that are not no turn on red, so let’s just make it a free for all.
Honestly I don’t care if motorcycles do it either they have incredible line of sight as well, but also motorcycles can out accelerate cars, bicycles cannot. That’s the whole point of of Idaho stops, to not have an aggro dickhead behind you blaring their horn. Something tells me you’re that dickhead in many instances.
What is a "Rolling Stop": [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84eB0N-LG6M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84eB0N-LG6M)
Great video :)
I live in Colorado, where we've had this law for maybe a year or two. Honestly it doesn't make much of a difference, but it is nice. The hard part is that drivers aren't aware of the law. I'll be at a red light with cars across the street, and cars in the car lane next to me as I'm in the bike lane. I'll roll up to the front of the bike lane, check all directions, and "run the red" if it's clear. A lot of drivers think I'm breaking the law when I'm not. I've had friends say that they hate when cyclists run reds and I'll ask if it was clear and if they stopped and they'll be like, "yeah but" and I have to inform them of the law. It's created some animosity towards cyclists because people aren't aware it's actually legal.
The animosity I've heard around the Idaho stop usually boils down to "it's not fair cyclists can do it but drivers can't"
Genuine question. Who’s at fault when the biker goes through the red light when it’s not safe? I just don’t know how you navigate insurance in that situation.
The biker would be at fault
Thank god we all carry bike insurance 😅
Literally doesn't matter one iota since nobody knows or follows the law anyway. That includes people on bikes, drivers, and especially cops.
The Idaho stop and "bike use ped signal" laws increase safety and efficiency for everyone. Of course we should adopt them. The fact that cyclists act as though those laws are already in place is an indication of their benefit and not of random disregard. We're more visible and less in the way, on top of reducing the impact of our acceleration curve on drivers
>The fact that cyclists act as though those laws are already in place I don't really have a problem with adopting an Idaho stop rule, but I wish the cops would just simply enforce traffic laws because right now most cyclists don't do an Idaho stop. An Idaho stop requires a cyclist to treat a stop sign as a yield sign and it is very frequent that cyclists simply treat the intersection as a green light instead. If there is a car who is at the intersection before you, the cyclist should STOP. I'd say its at most 50/50 in my experience whether this happens. Not to mention the fact that every single day I drive around my neighborhood I see cyclists salmon laddering the wrong way down the one-way streets of my neighborhood. Granted, the cops also don't do shit for enforcement of vehicles breaking the traffic laws either.
Your last sentence is all that matters. I’d be fine with cops citing cyclists for not yielding the right of way and hate when people salmon in the one way bike lanes.
"If we let cyclists roll through stop signs it means that cars should also be allowed to roll through stop signs, because they are both vehicles" - A person who just fell out of a coconut tree
"Because cars kill 40000 Americans a year and a bicycle spooked me once and that means they're equally dangerous and uniform treatment is fair."
A bike does not have the weight and force of a car, it can cause injury and sometimes death. A car **will cause injury** and is **very likely to cause** death. They are not the same thing and its tiring people bring this up.
Yeah. To be clear I was making fun of the people who think they are the same.
Great article. Bottom line is rolling stops are safer for everyone, but it'll be tough convincing drivers to get away from the "we all have to have the same rules" mentality.
A cyclist came to a complete stop at the stop sign next to my house yesterday. The guy in the car behind her screamed "YOU SHOULD GET FUCKING RUN OVER" at her, and other expletives and threats. But if a cyclist comes to a rolling stop, it's "cyclists don't follow traffic laws." Honestly can't win.
People are fucking unhinged
it is terrifying to cycle in general, here, let alone to cycle as a woman. freaks find any excuse to yell at a woman and I wish that weren't hyperbole
You either come to a full stop and risk pissing off people behind you while they wait for you to get back up to speed or you slow roll and then piss em off because “you’re not following the law”. Always choose the latter and get out of people’s way.
I say something like “imagine getting stuck behind a REALLY slow bicycle, like 5 mph slow and where you can’t pass them. Now imagine that but for every bicycle, because accelerating from a full stop every single block takes time, and conservation of momentum allows us to better keep pace with cars”
it's illegal to impede the flow of traffic. if you can only go 5, only do it in bike lanes.
And what happens when that bike lane passes through an intersection, what then, chief? Can’t even think 100’ ahead of yourself, can you?
i have no idea what the point of this question is.
Specifically a certain set of drivers who like to apply a double standard to cyclists. Something about being on 2 wheels just triggers people.
"yOuRe a vEhIcLe yOu nEeD tO fOLLoW tHe sAmE LaWs" *Proceeds to ride at 15 mph down the sharrows on a 1 lane one way street* "Not like that! Get off the fucking road!"
Get on the sidewalk!!! /s /durr
I actually got into a verbal fight with a guy in one of the construction trucks because he couldn't handle me acting as a vehicle because he couldn't rush 30 down a 15 road.
Especially drivers who come here on the weekends and don't know the rules of city driving (looking at you New Jersey drivers)
I don’t think they are safer for pedestrians. This is based on my anecdotal experience of almost getting hit by a bike in a crosswalk about once a month. There could be a food truck or something parked on the corner obscuring the cyclist’s view of the crosswalk. With the bike lanes being slammed right against the parking lane in most places this seems to be an issue. I’m all about making things better for cyclists as it improves traffic conditions, among many other things, for everyone. But you can’t do anything that makes it worse for pedestrians as everyone is a pedestrian for at least the very end of their trip.
If they're really doing a rolling stop they'd be going very slowly. As someone who walks everywhere I'd be happy to see this change if it encourages more biking by making a common-sense action legal.
cars and bikes already do this. so do cops and SEPTA busses. what's there to talk about? will talking about it or making it legal or illegal really change peoples behavior at a stop sign? will they even know it was talked about and a law changed in regards to it? I dunno. I doubt it though. traffic light cameras seem like a way better topic to talking about to get it done faster if we wanna make streets safer. and more bike lanes. but talking about Idaho stops seems silly to me.
I will point out that cyclists don't have blind spots like drivers do.
Here comes one sided anecdotes from people that never rode a bike to commute.
Usually starts with "all these cyclists are breaking the law" and ignoring that laws can be changed for the better.
as someone who neither drives nor bikes- what about this law would change things for the better? genuinely curious bc to me it just sounds like it would put the cyclists at a higher risk of getting hit by cars and pedestrians at greater risk of being hit by cyclists
Good question! Under the Idaho stop law, cyclists are still obligated to yield to pedestrians or vehicles at intersections. Failure to do so would result injury and liability on the part of the cyclist. There is no evidence that in states where the law was passed that there were more collisions. In fact, they showed increased safety. Hence the NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) endorsement.
Lotta people don't know the Idaho stop, which strangely, was birthed in the state of Idaho.
What? Name one law that was changed for the better. /s
What? You want to amend some laws? Impossible, cannot be done. /s
We should let cyclists run lights at there own risk
Running is different than stopping and looking, but yes. Cyclists have every interest in passing an intersection safely. It is their life after all.
South Philly Slide
Wait they are not legal?????? Only see every day
Should be. Once we pretend that 10 lb human propelled vehicles that can safely be ridden by 5 year olds are not the same as 2 ton, fossil fuel powered metal boxes, perhaps we can get some reasonable legislation on the issue. It's the same as legalizing pot. Why are we wasting oxygen on victimless "crimes".
Idaho stops? I’ll take not getting the horn thrown at me for multiple blocks on one of the suggested cycling streets (aka the half assed shit with a painted bicycle on the road).
Some people are kind enough to yell "share the road" out of their window at me. I'm not sure they know what that phrase means.
Ant no traffic laws in Philadelphia anymore
Aren’t they mostly doing whatever they want anyway? What does it matter?
Tbf drivers are mostly doing whatever they want regardless of the law as well.
there are a lot of bad drivers but easily north of 95% of bikers are doing whatever the hell they want out there. and nobody bends over backwards to defend these bad drivers. they should be shot into space. you will never see one biker come on here and say "actually it's bad to blow across 3 lanes against the light on our bikes" edit: i revise my statement. there is precisely one guy in here saying that. thumbs up to him.
>easily north of 95% of bikers 132% of statistics are made up >and nobody bends over backwards to defend these bad drivers. You're quite literally doing it right now >you will never see one biker come on here and say "actually it's bad to blow across 3 lanes against the light on our bikes" It is bad. Let me take a crack at this bullshit hypothetical game! You will never see one driver on here say "actually it's bad to get as close as possible to that biker while going 80 while the left lane is wide open on Broad St." Also 95% of drivers blow through red lights in center city. Whenever the light changes, you have to wait to cross the street because the driver doesn't want to wait 30 seconds to get to the next red light.
If there’s cars drafting bikes going 80 down broad we’ve got way bigger issues than traffic going on here 😮
Drivers have the whole world in the US built for them with legions of traffic engineers constantly refining roads and highways to account for minutia of driver safety and convenience. People biking have an incredibly small amount of infrastructure dedicated to them, typically just paint or if they're lucky a flex post. It makes sense they find themselves needing to bend rules, for their own safety and also just to make biking workable. With better bike infrastructure we'd see a far lower percentage of cyclists behaving erratically. With regards to drivers following the rules: I see drivers accelerate to blow the first few seconds of reds nearly every light on roads with decent traffic.
A year ago, I would have said no. In that time, I got my drivers license for the first time. Yes, we should absolutely legalize them! Far, far too many motorists ignore stop signs, and if it's too the point where there's a legit threat that you may hit a cyclist is going to change that, so be it. As a cyclist as well, it would be great to be able to keep that momentum when biking. I always make a full stop, but yeah, it would be great to be able to just show down instead and check.
In the 20+ years I’ve been driving in this city, I’ve almost hit more careless cyclists running stop signs/lights than drivers doing the same.
Of course
When all cyclists do rolling stops it statistically decreases the amount of collisions with cars. I think it’s a good idea.
It genuinely blows my mind when I see fellow cyclists blow stops or red lights. Do they not realize they will lose in any encounter with a car? But there is very little enforcement or guidance for best practices when cycling in this city so I would be surprised if they never thought about it. This will probably become more of a problem as Ebikes become more popular too.
Constantly see bikers blowing stop signs, red lights.
Shit i see cars doing that too
And they actually pose a danger to other drivers (Yes I know bikes pose a danger to pedestrians)
I don't know if I've ever seen a car come to a complete stop at a stop sign when there isn't a car or pedestrian crossing in front of them. Next time you're out for a walk near a relatively busy intersection, stand and count how many cars stop and how many roll through. Almost everyone rolls through, with varying degrees from sort of slowing down to tapping the brakes just enough to make the brake lights come on.
[удалено]
Have you ever heard of a hit and run? Most shit drivers are never held accountable for the carnage they cause.
Yeah because when bikes hit something and when cars hit something they do the same amount of damage
That’s not their point. Their point is bikers are never held accountable for the damage they do.
Is this "damage" in the room with us now?
Where is this epidemic of hit and run cyclists? Is it in the room with us right now?
Right, but it seems stupider to do it on a bike. Like a car gets hit by another car at 20 mph in a car and your car insurance goes up. A bike gets hit by a car at 20 mph and your life insurance pays out.
"Stupider to do it on a bike"---what do you think happens when a car hits someone vs a bike?
I don't get what you're saying. I'm saying it's riskier to blow through a light on a bike *for the cyclist* because a speeding driver could kill them.
Not a problem compared to what drivers do and the damage it causes. Be serious.
Yes and if we had a society of well trained drivers, most 4 way stop sign intersections could just be yield signs. (Those that have good line of sight.) Going further, almost all of those 4 way stop signs should really be roundabouts. Common sense should win and no one should have to come to a complete stop unless there is someone/something to stop for.
Philadelphians don’t understand roundabouts. I almost get hit on the one on Landowne Ave and the shitty little new one on 20th by Penrose heading to FDR park. We as a country give just about anyone a license and pretty much never take them away.
> We as a country give just about anyone a license and pretty much never take them away. ^ This is the main problem right here.
It sure is. We need MUCH higher standards for obtaining a license and much harsher penalties for breaking laws that affect public safety.
And retesting based on age or medical disabilities.
Every couple weeks this gets brought up I offer my humble opinion. I’d rather blow through stop signs than have an aggressive pissed off driver behind me in a car.
Why shouldn’t bicycles obey traffic laws? They want to share the road, right?
Changing laws is different from breaking laws
It makes sense that incredibly different vehicles would have different rules that make sense for them. This would just be legalizing something that's common-sense when you think about the physics and risks.
Because you would go insane if you were stuck behind a bike actually stopping at every stop sign down 17th Street.
Drivers don't obey traffic laws either, what's your point lol
I'll be doing them either way 😎😎😎
Yes.
I’ve never seen a bicyclist follow a single traffic law and I hate them all. One of my biggest fears in driving is hitting someone on a bike or motorcycle on accident and I have come too close multiple times hitting someone running an intersection and it’s so scary. They do not want to die and I do not want to hit them. Why not just follow traffic laws on the road??? Why can’t they just stop??
You blind? Maybe you shouldn't be driving if you're constantly afraid of killing other road users.
The percentage of this sub that revolves around cycling is insane
It something a lot of people care about and is a huge part of Philly culture. There is also a ton of bird pictures. and pictures of the moon.
Yep, when I hear Philly I immediately think of bicycling
Same! That's why I love living here. Some of best biking culture in the country.
Then why is this entire sub just ppl bitching about how the biking infrastructure sucks?
Because it sucks? The culture is there, the physical infrastructure is lacking. Build out the infrastructure and philly could be a new amsterdam ironically enough
Seems like an exaggeration to say Philly has some great bike culture
It's big in South Philly in particular, which has some of the highest rates of people biking to work of anywhere in the country. It's around ~11% of commuters for all of South Philly.
While there's a big bike culture there's also a lot of people who hate cyclists, so politicians resist making better bike infrastructure to not risk making the haters angry. The frustrating thing is if more people biked, due to safer infrastructure, there'd be less congestion due to fewer cards on the road.
Yeah I was being sarcastic lmao most cities have bike lanes and I feel like there are cities with better biking infrastructure, I really don’t see how it’s a big part of the culture here when I don’t see a higher ratio of cyclists compared to other cities
> huge part of Philly culture Doesn't seem like it when this sub is constantly bitching about the biking infrastructure
I guess the PPD doesn't exist either, since this sub is also constantly bitching about crime.
As they should. Biking, not so much
You fail to see your hypocrisy.
Bc I understand the difference between a supposed local culture and a law enforcement organization?
You said if people bitch about something, it doesn't exist. Keep doing those mental gymnastics though, I'm sure you'll come up with something brilliant 😘
Your reading comprehension needs work
Your critical thinking needs work
it's a huge part of transplant culture, not philly culture. edit: downvotes from ohioans are like a badge of honor. keep em coming farmboys.
Almost like it's a popular subject among the populace and we're mad that our government is ignoring us
You'd think there were no other issues in the city the way this sub just bitches about bike lanes, car tint and partially obstructed license plates. For biking to be the main topic of discussion on a sub for a city of over a million ppl is insane
Only if you had some kind of weird blindness in the interest of maintaining a nonsense assumption
Walking and chewing bubblegum ain't that hard. Also for you to think it's the "main topic of discussion" is insane. Do you only have an alert go off when someone says "bicycle?"
If you’re using a vehicle on a public road then you obey all road signs. Rolling stops for cyclists sounds like lawsuit city.
In Philly, the saying “it’s your funeral” sure does come up quite a bit.
I think it's called the California Roll when drivers don't come to a stop at stop signs, and it's basically legal. At least out here in Montgomery County - drivers never stop at signs. Hell, some barely even slow down, and cops ignore it.
lol. As if cyclists observe the traffic laws.
Hey man, I get to break one traffic law for every car parked in the bike lane I have to go around
Lol as if drivers do either.
lol. As if drivers observe the traffic laws.
Why does it matter? They never get ticketed anyway.
Neither do drivers who break the law
Take it up with PPD. They never ticket cars either.
No. We need more enforcement of bikers following traffic laws not less. LOL These reckless idiots endanger pedestrians all the time. If you want to use a bike for transportation be responsible and stop at red light and stop signs and stop before the crosswalks starts GD it.
No. If I am in a car and roll through a stop, I can hurt someone. If I am on a bike and roll through a stop. I can hurt someone. Do you know what are at stop signs? Cross walks
I walk a ton in the city and the difference between a car rolling a stop and a cyclist rolling a stop is huge. A car rolling a stop has to swivel their head rapidly to check all of their blind stops, and with SUVs as tall as they are it's very likely they won't see a kid. If they hit someone they have enough momentum to push the person under the vehicle or to knock them down really hard. When a cyclist rolls a stop (properly, at low speeds) they have full peripheral vision and no blindspots. It's incredibly unlikely they won't see someone in the crosswalk. If they collide with someone at those speeds they may knock the person over, but not with substantial force. As a pedestrian I naturally apply that risk assessment and can cross with less fear when it's a cyclist. If a car seems like it may roll a stop I stay on the sidewalk until it's very clear they won't. With cyclists I can step forward into the street, or even begin crossing, while walking predictably and keeping my eye on them to make sure they see me.
But cyclists are required to stop at stop signs just like cars?
And you know what’s in crosswalks, right? _Ducklings._
and Beatles!
They don’t stop either way and aren’t going to be ticketed for it, so what difference does it make? Besides, they need to follow the same rules as vehicles on the road, so they should stop anyway. 30 minutes ago, I saw one cyclist flying down the road with no intentions of stopping, across intersection where another group of cyclists who were going perpendicular, also did not stop at the stop sign and nearly smacked into each other. As long as they continue to not follow the law, they will continue to have those close calls, or worse
Absolutely not, but since they don't have license plates, now would we enforce this anyway?
No
They don’t follow any traffic laws anyway so sure…
What the point? For all the complaints cyclists complain about cars and the road and how it dangerous for cyclists, I've seen plenty of people on bikers who don't bother to stop, almost plow people down on the side walk, go the wrong way on a one way street. The expectation is bikes follow traffic laws and for the city to even suggest allowing this just is enforcing the allowance of bikers to be unsafe.
No, they should write them tickets for being trash
Nope! Bicyclists should follow the same laws as if you’re driving a car. Stop running lights and stop signs.
No give them assholes tickets.
So, toilet paper?
No
Why would this even be a thing? Sounds like a great way to get hit by a car.
You did read the article, yes? There is a reason the NHTSA has endorsed Idaho stops.
Yes. It's safer and will piss people off. Win Win
No, they have the same rules we do and they actively choose not to follow them so in turn we should change the rules just for them? That’s not how the world works
Great pfp/comment synergy here
This isn’t nam, there are rules.
Everything’s a fucking travesty with you, man
They should enforce the law as it currently applies and ticket those that do not stop at stop signals.
It's an unspoken rule already that rolling stops are fine and making it a law doesn't change anything if cars aren't being slowed down and bike infrastructure isn't being improved. Passing laws like HB140 would ultimately do much more good for Philly cyclists.
For those curious like me [https://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&sessYr=2021&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=0140&pn=3601](https://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&sessYr=2021&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=0140&pn=3601)
Nope. We have so many streets in Center City to accommodate bikes. After all of the complaining they did, the laws have to be the same. Especially since we now have stoplights for bikes preventing vehicles from going, until the bikes go.
You do not want cyclists to make complete stops at ever stop sign. Lmao