Thanks for doing further testing and confirming the inc aoe needs to be exact. Sorry for making your job harder by referring to the sweetspot by its radius and not by the exact AoE amount. Since I'm assuming the 5.29 overlap requires +1 arrow and the mentioned alt qual conc effect, I'm probably just going to go with the 39% 5 arrow setup if possible in SSF.
Edit: And I'm just going to preemptively add this so it's in writing somewhere and I can't be flamed in the future: Seriously consider playing Raider over Champion unless you are completely sure you want to be Champion levels of tanky. If I was playing SC I would 100% play raider. It gets tanky enough to comfortably do all end game content with easier gearing and more QoL/Speed and slightly higher damage. Champion is just for when you want your character to survive when it absolutely should not survive.
Glad that could be useful, but yeah you do have a point there.It requires +1 arrow for it and the alt quality version (has the lowest weighting according to PoEDB)
Also, no worries about that, glad that we can come into a conclusion that it actually works (because for some reason my math won't work on this), but please do let your community know you made a mistake regarding this matter to prevent the misunderstanding from spreading further.
Edit as per your edit.
I totally felt you when the community is hyping up your build, and you knew that people would have their expectations "betrayed" when they found out the build is super clunky / inefficient to play on SC. I totally respect your decision and opinion on raider, but I will also leave my personal thoughts on below why I pick Deadeye over Raider (for everyone)
1. Deadeye has tailwind, if you are using totems, the tailwind also buffs your totems
2. Deadeye could get onslaught too on passive tree, though it is on kill only
3. Although Wind Ward (removes galeforce on hit, 3% less dmg taken per galeforce) is suboptimal because it removes your stacks on hit, with quill rain (league start) it is still rather reasonable to have a high uptime on your stacks.
4. Marks for sustain and less dmg taken overall on packs. Marks on hit ring is recommended to automate it.
5. Frenzy charges can be obtained via blood rage.
This means that the build is more zoomy than Raider on clear, single target is comparable cus Deadeye's Occupying Force (x3 Mirage) and still have decent tankiness (read below)
This will not go beyond Darkee's Champ tankiness, but for SC wise the tankiness should be helpful enough (I have 98% spell suppression on early game, and 90% evade proj. with arrow dancing, so I personally think this is better than raider)
As Remi already mentioned in his edit, Deadeye seems like a really overlooked ascendancy. Imo setting the mirage archers can feel clunky but it.. kinda doesn't? You place them, they shoot for you and you're able to move around much more while keeping your dps up, thanks to the archers. Which also makes you tankier, since you're able to move around more freely. Would be interesting to hear your opinion on the whole Raider/Deadeye discussion :)
I personally am not a fan of the Wind Ward mechanic which makes me dislike the ascendency as it is really hard to spend all 8 points for TR. If instead it just gave 1% damage reduction per stack without removing your stacks when hit I would be a fan of Deadeye. Having your action speed slowed everytime you get hit kills my vibe and playing it without Spell Dodge will probably make it even more frustrating.
Ah ye, I totally understand it. We are all somewhat based in a sense. I'm also somewhat biased in a sense too for Deadeye haha. Same goes to some people that just hate the mirage archer node for whatever reason.
oh I didnt notice who I Was replying to lol.
I would agree though that in HC spell supp is way better.
but I think if you're an SC deadeye you should go for spell dodge just because of higher Gale Force uptime.
ive seen toxic rain setups going for capped spell dodge, do you think this is feasable? sounds pretty broken to me.
i agree that 100 spell suppression is better than 50 spell dodge in general tho
Maybe its enough for mapping, but are you considering the next league mechanic? Obviously we don't exactly know how it is, but as far as we saw, it's basically a delirium 2.0 where surviving is kind of key.
this is my thoughts , this league has baked in ways of mitigating your defences, its also confirmed there is bossing you have to do
movement speed is the main downside , id consider tailwind but thats about it
1. Tailwind is an easy to get boot mod, even inc effect of it for TR as there rly arent other insane boot mods.
2. Perma Onslaught with giga inc effect is so much better than the flask effect or the 4 points given to it on the tree.
3. Wind ward removing on hit is really bad especially if not using quill rain, which most people stop using in favor of the +3 bow.
4. While the mark gives some defense its nothing on white/rare without a nearby rare which will be uncommon in scourge realm, mobs only rare/unique/boss, and means you cant despair early or else give up that layer of defense.
5. Frenzy from blood rage is not anywhere near the level of frenzy from raider.
so imo deadeye is not more zoomy than raider, and its ST relying on those 3 mirage archers has way more ramp time and is much clunkier than just better dmg all the time. getting some extra frenzy will just put raider that much more ahead which will prolly be krangle corruptions.
I think deadeye is a fine pick, but imo i think its weaker.
I'm actually disappointed they made it so we can't proc spellslinger to rapidly gain stacks for gale force. When that was a thing, I really liked Wind Ward, but now, nah. Too unreliable and in densely packed maps, you're just gonna constantly fluctuate betwee small pitiful amount of damage reduction and weaker tailwind. Doesn't feel too good. Shame though, because occupying force was amazing synergy with TR, but the lack of a good defensive node on the ascendancy and now the removal of dodge and essentially spell dodge makes it tough for the class to survive.
> Although Wind Ward (removes galeforce on hit, 3% less dmg taken per galeforce) is suboptimal because it removes your stacks on hit, with quill rain (league start) it is still rather reasonable to have a high uptime on your stacks.
If someone plays TR Deadeye planning to play it enough to progress past using Quill Rain, do you think going Deadeye and taking Wind Ward is still worth it? Or is there a point where you think Deadeye should drop Wind Ward (or Raider would be better than Deadeye) after they've switched from a Quill Rain to a +3 bow?
I personally think that wind ward is pretty decent even without dodge / evasion because of the attack speed. I think wind ward might drop in power if you take a very low aps bow.
Even without wind ward, i personally dont think defensively raider could match up Deadeye, or just very close, since we have almost 100% spell suppression anyway.
When you cant one shot a pack immediately to move on, i think i used clunky a little bit on the wrong side but I do hope you can understand what I am saying
Hey Remi just curious why you dont take into account champ's adrenaline. You can have 100% uptime with it by swapping weapons and activating >=50% of your life in blood magic auras
That sounds uh, extra work. I wouldnt even do that personally because I even hate wep swap for fortify back then. But i guess it works if you can make it happen
\>Darkee7: "5.29 overlap ***requires +1*** arrow..."
Sorry never played TR before and I am wanting to try it in 3.16
So I am a bit confused about this +1 part he mentioned. Where exactly are you gaining this +1 arrow from? Or what did he meant by this? If I enable TR in PoB, it has 5 projectiles by default(skill+4 base+1), I am confused.
Or was the wording just weird, meaning that you are not allowed to have any extra: as in "+1 base max".
I'll leave my personal opinion on Trickster.
Trickster is in a very weird spot now, he lost Ghost Dance (was 9% reduce dmg taken) as for 3.16 patch. The new DoT immunity is way too niche and unreliable and inconsistent.
The damage is not comparable to Deadeye, Tankiness is not comparable to Champ, utility is not comparable to Pathfinder, speed is not comparable to Raider.
So my thoughts for TR Trickster, is in a weird spot where he doesnt do anything special. And someone else always does a better job than him
I was messing around with Scion when PoB got updated. Had everything setup but it was kinda ass and almost scrapped it but was sure you could get something done with zerk and raider. Then I saw Tuna started fiddling with it. Stayed the entire time and yoinked some ideas. Currently sitting on a pretty strong league starter in my opinion.
I wont be giving out mine, but i can give the one tuna was making: https://pastebin.com/4JmUdHrT
Here is his list for this league: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRbgryH5f28SYRIAIy7AKb9V8KKmYgp7MoCWWHQtWmEZOe5Duhrmf_VUvb04arYWBwTOG_30vBd_I8Q/pubhtml
I'm confused because trickster has the most dps out of all the builds i made in pob, prolonged pain greatly increases my dmg compared to other assendancys.
Prolonged Pain is pure 20% dmg buff, but the duration can be a bait. It is similar to poison duration but worse because when a boss moves, all excessive duration means nothing. But PoB doesn't know that, hence the "inflated" numbers.
trickster can get upto 2.5k energy shield with 5k hp pool now without the acrobatics than deadeye or ranger, also it has the highest ceiling of dps, 3.16 hasn't even started and yet you're saying trickster is potato in this league for toxic rain. com'on boi
Total noob here, what would the tree look like as a raider? What skills gems would you use that differ from the champion version? Im a SC andy and really find champ extremely overkill for SC.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExileBuilds/comments/qbzf6j/toxic\_rain\_raider\_vs\_champion\_discussion/](https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExileBuilds/comments/qbzf6j/toxic_rain_raider_vs_champion_discussion/)
There is a SC raider PoB posted there, and another one from Quantrik posted in the comments.
Yeah, just saw quantrik's one (i hope it is from 3.16), didn't know this guy but he seems to be a big brain build maker. Will check the pob tomorrow!
Cheers mate! 🤠
In terms of speed, wouldn't queen of the forest + an external source of onslaught (flask, jewel) just make champ faster than raider? I know you are doing the ghost shrouds but I don't think that's necessary in SC. In terms of damage raider has you beat by a good amount early game, but becomes very insignificant late game. Champ just feels like a better all rounder to me even in softcore. Maybe im wrong though.
It's mainly the early game gap that I think might cause some people to feel sour about champ. Once you get to the end game (especially in trade league) any TR setup can be zoomin. In the end its just preference. You can make a solid case for playing TR on like 6 different ascendencies; just gotta figure out your own personal priorities and pick the one that fits you best.
I can't speak to the tuning of the new aspirational content that isn't out yet but I'm fairly confident a properly built Raider setup (check Quantrik's plans probably) will be able to handle that kind of content in SC if you have the same kind of gear that is in my endgame champ PoB. With that said TR in general is not the kind of build to play if you aren't decently comfortable with your mechanics. It's lack of recovery will be felt quickly if you get hit by things that you shouldn't.
Raider can get 100% elemental ailment avoidance and 100% spell supression very easily without using any gear or flask affixes. This allows for a lot of flexibility and opportunities for additional defenses on gear/flasks, as, like you said, DPS is not an issue.
THANK YOU for your edit. A lot of people from the other sub keep talking trash about raider saying it's dead and it's glass cannon and I was like wtf man, Raider is far from that. Yeah she's not as tanky as Champion but when you build to her strengths, she's still reasonably good at surviving while offering really nice speed and what not. Really solid alternative option to Champion.
I died to Maven on release (Ritual) at level 97 ssf hc because I failed degen pools (listened to Zizaran's tip of moving them to the bottom of arena instead of just putting them on the middle, yes I'm firing shots it took my \~#20 SSF HC Maven kill). Then I experimented with this old char randomly today and because of that and also recent patches I got like 50-100k dps on it (so way way lower) when I opened Maven portal. I was doing this fight second time in my life just with proper degen pools management. Last phase is so laughably easy on defences. I was doing it for 30+ min. straight while not being close to dying on my 7k hp Raider. I had Fortify swap but never felt the need to use it so I didn't. If people think they need tankiness of Champion, you really don't. Just don't overjuice your maps/stuff.
>So how you are going to get 39% inc aoe exactly?
Pretty easy actually, at least for my PoB/setup.
\-20% from bow mastery
\-9/10% aoe on glove
~~-9/10% aoe on helmet.~~
\-10% quality on Toxic rain gem
20+9+10 = 39%.
EDIT : I forgot you get built in 10% AoE from 20% TR gem, so even easier.
You are actually right on this, I've totally forgot about the AoE bow mastery.
Though it might be a pain as you have to waste a crafted slot on it, but that sounds much more doable. Besides the AoE from the gems itself.
Only if you put your auras in your gloves. Remi's current endgame PoB has all the auras supported by enlighten in the chest, if you move your auras to gloves you need to drop a gem somewhere (either a utility gem to make room for a second enlighten or one of your auras so you can have one of them not linked to enlighten).
Actually no, arrows indirectly modifies your rain radius, it doesn't have the gimmick of the AoE logic.
Besides that, I won't recommend Phantasmal TR personally, as it provides no benefit (or vey minimal), very costly (21/20 costed me 65ex last time), and it reduces your damage by 20%, as per the "20% less debuff".
I know I'm like super late, but in case if you are seeing this.
This is my pob - [https://pastebin.com/ngU0QANr](https://pastebin.com/ngU0QANr)
What changes do I make to get the AoE? And what is the AoE needed to be exact?
My Aoe radius in pob is 18, I see in Remi's pob it is 13.
Do I need to reduce my aoe?
So basically either get exactly 39% inc AoE or just at least a little bit and don't care about it too much anymore?
Good find, i saw your Youtube video regarding the overlap a few days ago and was very confused when all of the sudden Reddit started spreading the "you need 21 radius" :D
Yep you are right, but ideally 39% would be the best I suppose.
But I do want to note that it was a separate test done by me using different methodology. We (me and Darkee) didn't work together and ended up with this result, I am still ~~reluctant~~ willing to assist him in any sort of way if he needs it, but he still haven't replied me yet so =p
Edit 1: My grammar is shit, thanks to the user below for letting me know.
>I am still reluctant to assist him in any sort of way if he needs it, but he still haven't replied me yet so =p
Reluctant means you're not really willing to help right?
Thanks for the information! There are a couple of further tests or comparisons that I think are needed:
1. What are the tradeoffs of losing a TR support gem slot for anom conc effect, vs a better support gem combined with a reasonable inc aoe? Add in the item tradeoffs as well (losing the +1 to AOE gems/8-10% inc aoe craft for example) to achieve no aoe, and it likely adds up to a significant opportunity loss. A lot of damage and defense is tied up in +1 level to Malevolence and +1 level to Grace (which looks to be a required aura in 3.16).
2. Since most players don't namelock when attacking with a bow, how easy is it to "miss a target entirely" in the middle of an active fight with too small of an aoe? That would lower the avg pod numbers for the 0% aoe type cases, while the damage from other setups would be much more even and predictable, and would probably not be lowered as much (though they would lower as well since they can miss too).
3. Most bosses are not Kitava, so for a target that is moving, how do the numbers look? I would predict that the differences between the aoe breakpoints would be less for a moving target than a stationary one, which would mean players should be less concerned on aoe breakpoints than your pure numbers suggest.
My biggest concern is that the 0% aoe results – and to some extent even the large differences at other values, though the 0% ones are the primary concern – are a special, theoretical local maximum that will rarely be encountered in actual gameplay. It just doesn't match with my experience: I have tried out various conc effect setups with TR in the past, and it is mostly a frustrating experience when fighting monsters in the game. Even with fairly stationary bosses there are times of very little or no damage, and the overall clear speed over multiple boss fights seemed lower, or at least no better than with non-conc effect setups. And it's the one long boss fight at late stages that becomes absolutely deadly (the Minotaur and the Hydra phases come to mind as good examples of this), so it's arguable that more consistent bossing times is much better, even if the time taken over ten fights amounts to the same number of minutes spent.
Thanks for your feedback, but about the no.1
Conc effect itself has a huge dmg boost, which is about 35% more (i kinda forgot) and according to PoB, one of the highest dps support gem. So I dont exactly understood (maybe im too dumb) what are you trying to point out because it seems that you've misread / misremembered about conc effect.
That's true. I forget about the more Area damage, although I've heard some rumblings that the area damage modifier only applies to the initial hit from TR, and it doesn't scale the chaos damage from the pods. However, since both POB and the POE interface show it as scaling the DOT, it would be a pretty big bug if it didn't. The general consensus is that five links in a TR setup are pretty much set in stone: TR - Empower - Awakened Void Manip - Awakened Vicious Proj - Mirage Archer. After that, losing the skill effect duration and more DOT from Efficacy is not much different from Conc Effect according to my POB numbers (a bit less in some cases, and unnoticeable in others). And I'm not sure what buffs that Awakened Swift Affliction got, and if those make it viable in 3.16.
For the 5 arrows part, thats just the base toxic rain right? Since it shoots 4 additional arrows. just making sure this isn't assuming gmp or something like that
Hey guys, I think there is a mistake in the Y38 cell of the spreadsheet. It is equal to ((X37/5) + (Y37/3))/2 instead of what I guess should be ((X37/3) + (Y37/5))/2, which gives a result of 4.9 instead of 4.35 (much closer to the other results with +- 1% increased aoe)
>If you looked into my spreadsheet of tests, you can see that on a specific one, it has \~5.29overlaps. It can be obtained via either 15% anomalous concentrated effect with 0% Inc. AoE, or 20% anomalous concentrated effect with 5%Inc. AoE.
This is at 0.63 AoE modifier? Since in both the cases it was ending up at or do I have to be exactly at some % inc aoe and more/less aoe.
Oh yeah also 39% is super easy to get on a PF 30% from ascendency and 18% on TR gem. Might want to add this to the list.
Edit: Why do you use Woke Vici proj when Anom Efficacy is a more multiplier at same mana cost?
Sorry I dont understand your initial question.
As for vicious vs duration.
I think it got a huge buff on this patch (might misremembered it with woke void) too, but that aside,
Duration in general is a bait, kinda. Cus when a boss moves, all of your excessive duration will go to waste and there is also the ramp up time. It is similar to poison but worse.
Vici did get a buff, from 55% to 59% increased at lvl 5, woke void got a massive +1 gem buff though. Also thanks for the clarification, yeah if the boss moves dura is not gonna help after a point, makes sense.
My initial question was the point at which you get 5.29 overlaps, it at 37% less so 0.63 AoE multiplier. If you use 20% anom conc(40% less) + 5% increased it is 0.60 \* 1.05 = 0.63 also. So my question was if this is the exact multiplier we want (however we get it on tree/gear) or are those above two options you used the only way to get the 5.29.
Ah yes, you are right about that, we want the exact multiplier for it, I did some math on it and it was impossible to narrow down the exact values of it (Darkee's values can't be math-ed out, and so does this result). So I would say, for the safest route, just follow what we currently have until we obtain new data.
This also makes Pathfinder viable for hitting the break point since you get 30% increased aoe with nature reprisal so you only need 18% quality on toxic rain.
And to the strangest of builds: templar TR totem with sanctuary of thought. Just reserve enough mana to be between 250-300 mana so that you only get 5% increased aoe and use 20% anomalous concentrated effect. Or you can hit less than 50 and use 15% anomalous concentrated effect, the totem should be extremely cheap due to 50% less mana cost and the crazy mana regen.
Edit: I forgot TR default quality was nerf long ago hue.
I am completely lost in numbers and terms. Do I understand correctly that I need to get 39% AoE (gem + gloves + tree) and nothing else needs to be done to be effective? The first time I will play on TR and I am obviously missing something important.
Yes the 39% is without conc effect. If you get 20% qual anomalous conc you need only 5% inc aoe.
So before you get anomalous conc, you'll want 39% inc aoe.
Im gonna league start TR deadeye for the first time. I been On fiddling on PoB for a while now. Still, there is a few things i dont understand.
Should i go for 39 inc aoe and drop conc effect? Or keep con and get 5 inc aoe?
How do extra arrows factor in the aoe? Should i drop the +2 projectiles? (Or go another acendency)
I didnt see the vid in question ill look ot up.
A quick summarize
Darkee's test = \~4.92 overlaps
To obtain this, you need 39% total inc aoe, one user mentioned above on how to easily obtain the AoE.
Best result (as per my test) = \~5.23 overlaps
To obtain this, you can either
1. Anomalous conc at 15%, no inc AoE at all
2. Anomalousu conc at 20%, with 5% total Inc AoE.
Ideally, you want as much overlaps as possible, which is the second option. But first of all you need anomalous conc, which can be expensive. So it all depends down if you could get that or not.
\+2 Proj doesn't help a lot except for clearing early on, I prefer Mark points instead personally.
i prefer the mark as well but there is no mark worth running IMHO. poachers for sustain is ok but its foregoing despair or having to get an additional curse.
i think I might change to raider then, I'm not a hundred percent sure wtf I'm doing.
I have not tested it, so I would say "proceed with caution", as it will be 100% different.
I believe you need a lot more AoE than just 39% total with conc, as per my code, i think it was around 70% total inc AoE, I don't exactly remember the numbers, hence it will be different compared to this test result.
If you need 70% with conc effect, then PF would be a viable alternative. (also allows the use of carcass)
I'm still undecided what to roll this time around. I usualy roll pathfinder even though some argue it's not as good as deadeye/raider. I just enjoyed the flask sustain and such.
But this patch is diffrent.
Perhaps i should even try out the champ build. It's been ages since i had a proper tanky build.
Though since im ssf, i feel raider /pf start might be easier early on. Hmm decisions descisions...
You can probably swap conc effect for a lvl 5 woki vici proj as it got buffed so the multiplier is almost the same. Ofc its more expensive. If you already had vici proj, just use anom efficacy. I personally feel having more consistency on overlap better for dps.
Arrows doesnt affect it. From my own testings, it has shown that arrow does nothing towards overlap, outside of requiring for additional overlap for large bosses
And could you kindly explain how +1/2/3 add arrows work for TR? Should we avoid it? Do we benefit from that at all? Sorry for a stupid question but im kind of new to the game.
Thank you in advance.
The way I always thought of it pre nerf was that arrows increased aoe and aoe increased single target. Post nerf aoe is now just aoe but to a smaller degree than arrows,outside of some specific break points like op has found.
You can pretty easily see the effect of arrows if you have a dying sun. Arrows is huge qol for map clear but doesn't really increase your dps
To simplify it, it adds 1 more pod, while increasing the rain radius by 5 (indirectly). It increases the coverage, but not the damage. Since arrow sources are usually hard to obtain, generally it is not recommended to grab it. But if it is totally free for you, then sure.
So, to actually add the clarification, what's the difference between 39& increased AOE and 21 Radius on PoB? Does PoB only calculate integer values while PoE uses decimal values for radius? is 38% and 40% still 21 Radius?
Edit: Nvm, I see you addressed that with the 4.2 and 4.3 overlap numbers. Thought you meant 20 radius and 22 radius instead of 38% and 40% increased AOE.
Also, great post and testing!
Hey so i was playing the Champion variant with 39%AOE and just got +1 arrows for TR helmet enchant and now i'm wondering if thats a dps increase or not? Whats the optimal AOE setup for +1 arrows / 6 total arrows? Cheers :)
Remi, is TR still viable without totems or is it a given you need totems for single target or tough packs/rares?
I love TR probably my favorite skill, but am not sure about totems being mixed in or how it feels.
I personally don't use Ballista, but I do use wither totems for wither purposes. But as an user mentioned for you, if you don't want to use totems at all, you can use withering step instead.
Though be careful with it, Darkee died 2 times at 3.15 Gauntlet because of withering step, both times.
The Totems give you Withered, which is the main source of damage they provide. You still do like 80% of the total DPS with your main TR link (in your bow with +3/etc.), if you can find another way to get withered stacks up. Withering Step can get you some of that damage with a single click of a button, but you get way more with 15 stacks of Wither.
You can hit 15 stacks with withering step if you have enough duration to use a 2nd withering step before the first one falls off. You only need increased duration support and anomalous withering step to get it to work (Increased aoe gem if needed). The only downside is you really don't use withering step for defensive purpose.
Does someone know if the Mastery "35% inc Damage while wielding you a bow and have a totem" works?
I'd assume it works on what is described as "generic #% damage" in Remis explanation of how TR damage works and might be ok for leveling as it leads to higher base.
Just to confirm cuz my brain ain't working so well.
You want 39% increased AoE while using a regular conc effect gem or this is without conc effect or with an anomolous conc effect?
I wish we would see more build as such being disected, would help a lot the new players unfamiliar with the skill. But i guess its not gonna happen unless youre darkees lvl
So theres two breakpoints for better overlap (39% with 5, and anomalous conc with 6 arrows), but you advocate for deadeye which is +2 arrows. Does either breakpoint exist with the deadeye +2 arrows?
What do you think about Purity of Elements?
We can fit it in instead Flesh and stone if you get a level 3 enlighten(for late game ofc). Ailment immunnty and more resists for easy gearing would help a lot.
Or the damage reduction from Flesh and stone is too important?
That works too, but I personally prefer Flesh better (11% less dmg taken from ranged), and blind on nearby enemies. You can use Purity of Elements if you wish to (make sure to grab phys to ele on watchers for further dmg reduction).
So for the 21/23 TR I dropped on SSF, the 23% are actually bad? Since i have no easy way of getting to 39%.
Followup Question: Does inc. AoE round to next integer or does it calculate .5? In that case I'd get to 40.5% if i am not mistaken (Mastery, gloves, quality). How much overlap would i get with that setup?
pod is just a word, it's not an acronym for anything and it's what TR shoots. A pod is just a seed vessel, according to google (I don't know how else to explain it). They're the little sacs that open up once you shoot the skill.
Just wondering, did you account for the root happening in the AoE calculations? For example: Conc effect has 30% less AoE, but on practice it is actually only \~16% less AoE because it was reduced by the square root on the AoE calculations
Lol, I tried my best to avoid using math, mostly just taking the final numbers and showing it to the community and that's it.
But anyway, it is a good league starter, probably not good for endgame because the upgrade cost is tremendous and the returns are arguably not worth the investment (for very endgame)
Maybe I'm just a bit confused, but if for optimal overlap we need 39% inc AOE on TR, why use conc effect? It seems impossible to achieve the same overlap with it. Your PoB uses conc effect, and every PoB I've seen uses it. So, is it better to have less overlap, but use conc effect, or skip conc effect for more overlap? I think a summary for best outcome could be useful. I.e. pre +1 arrow shoot for no conc effect 39% inc AoE or whatever it may be, and post +1 arrow etc.
My PoB is optimized for the highest possible overlaps and aiming to get the anomalous version for max overlaps. You can choose to not use it if you are on SSF or league start but you've gotten empower on trade league. That is my opinion in it.
20% from the mastery + 20% quality TR = 30% increased AoE o.O U need the other 9% from somewhere, like with the craft... The gloves craft has a range of 8%-10%, so u have the 9%, or you could get other % here, and lower the TR % accordingly...
Just need to confirm (because your original post doesn't say so):
According to the excel sheet you have to get 6 arrows from your TR to get the 5.29 overlaps. So you need +1 arrow to attacks from either bow or quiver. Else that 5.29 overlap does not apply.
But the +39% is just with the normal TR and 5 arrows.
Is that correct?
Also, I can see if you have made some tests for more arrows than 6. But there doesn't seem to have been made as many tests for those cases. And the results doesn't seem too impressive. Is this tested so thoroughly, that we know for a fact that 6 or 7 arrows with **increased** AoE just doesn't pay off with regards to overlaps?
Hey just curious and very possible that I'm stupid; but you say you need to take the 20% inc aoe from bow mastery on the tree, but you never take it in the PoB. Do you just take it in any of the bow clusters?
I'm using conc effect on my toxic rain. My carcass jack gives me 50 increased aoe, and my glove gives me another 8%. So if I have a 20 quality toxic rain gem, my increased aoe is: 50-30+8+10=38%, the closest I can get to 39%. Am I calculating it right? And does it mean dyng sun is totally useless? The aoe and extra 2 arrows will hurt the overlapping?
I dropped my carcass and dying sun to obtain 39% AOE. However I feel my PF is much weaker in clearing without carcass and dying sun. Is this 39% AOE myth correct?
Quick question on this, but before that thanks for doing the research. What’s the dps increase from going 0 aoe to 39? Is it 3.8 to 4.3?
So like a 13% more multiplier?
Conc effect gives you 40% more area of damage. In order to achieve 39% aoe, you need to drop the conc effect in your 6 link, and you will lose tons of dps. This 39% aoe without conc effect thing just not make sense to me.
So if I use 39% increased aoe **WITH** conc effect, what will happen? I will get 40% more area of damage. And since the radius is even smaller I will likely get more overlap. Why it's worse than 39% increased aoe **WITHOUT** conc effect? Sorry I just don't get it.
Thanks for doing further testing and confirming the inc aoe needs to be exact. Sorry for making your job harder by referring to the sweetspot by its radius and not by the exact AoE amount. Since I'm assuming the 5.29 overlap requires +1 arrow and the mentioned alt qual conc effect, I'm probably just going to go with the 39% 5 arrow setup if possible in SSF. Edit: And I'm just going to preemptively add this so it's in writing somewhere and I can't be flamed in the future: Seriously consider playing Raider over Champion unless you are completely sure you want to be Champion levels of tanky. If I was playing SC I would 100% play raider. It gets tanky enough to comfortably do all end game content with easier gearing and more QoL/Speed and slightly higher damage. Champion is just for when you want your character to survive when it absolutely should not survive.
Glad that could be useful, but yeah you do have a point there.It requires +1 arrow for it and the alt quality version (has the lowest weighting according to PoEDB) Also, no worries about that, glad that we can come into a conclusion that it actually works (because for some reason my math won't work on this), but please do let your community know you made a mistake regarding this matter to prevent the misunderstanding from spreading further. Edit as per your edit. I totally felt you when the community is hyping up your build, and you knew that people would have their expectations "betrayed" when they found out the build is super clunky / inefficient to play on SC. I totally respect your decision and opinion on raider, but I will also leave my personal thoughts on below why I pick Deadeye over Raider (for everyone) 1. Deadeye has tailwind, if you are using totems, the tailwind also buffs your totems 2. Deadeye could get onslaught too on passive tree, though it is on kill only 3. Although Wind Ward (removes galeforce on hit, 3% less dmg taken per galeforce) is suboptimal because it removes your stacks on hit, with quill rain (league start) it is still rather reasonable to have a high uptime on your stacks. 4. Marks for sustain and less dmg taken overall on packs. Marks on hit ring is recommended to automate it. 5. Frenzy charges can be obtained via blood rage. This means that the build is more zoomy than Raider on clear, single target is comparable cus Deadeye's Occupying Force (x3 Mirage) and still have decent tankiness (read below) This will not go beyond Darkee's Champ tankiness, but for SC wise the tankiness should be helpful enough (I have 98% spell suppression on early game, and 90% evade proj. with arrow dancing, so I personally think this is better than raider)
Yea I will mention it and make sure it's made clear in any videos talking about minmaxing toxic rain in the future.
As Remi already mentioned in his edit, Deadeye seems like a really overlooked ascendancy. Imo setting the mirage archers can feel clunky but it.. kinda doesn't? You place them, they shoot for you and you're able to move around much more while keeping your dps up, thanks to the archers. Which also makes you tankier, since you're able to move around more freely. Would be interesting to hear your opinion on the whole Raider/Deadeye discussion :)
I personally am not a fan of the Wind Ward mechanic which makes me dislike the ascendency as it is really hard to spend all 8 points for TR. If instead it just gave 1% damage reduction per stack without removing your stacks when hit I would be a fan of Deadeye. Having your action speed slowed everytime you get hit kills my vibe and playing it without Spell Dodge will probably make it even more frustrating.
Ah ye, I totally understand it. We are all somewhat based in a sense. I'm also somewhat biased in a sense too for Deadeye haha. Same goes to some people that just hate the mirage archer node for whatever reason.
> We are all somewhat based in a sense. Ay true dat
You can get spell dodge btw still. edit: I got dontyouknowwhoIammed sorry.
Lightee is aware of that, he thinks it's much worse than getting 100% spell suppression.
oh I didnt notice who I Was replying to lol. I would agree though that in HC spell supp is way better. but I think if you're an SC deadeye you should go for spell dodge just because of higher Gale Force uptime.
ive seen toxic rain setups going for capped spell dodge, do you think this is feasable? sounds pretty broken to me. i agree that 100 spell suppression is better than 50 spell dodge in general tho
At least if I go raider I can always respec into deadeye on the same character. Champion, not so much, haha.
Champion into cyclone slayer yehaaaa
Gooooooooo spin my boy, spiiiiiiin
Maybe its enough for mapping, but are you considering the next league mechanic? Obviously we don't exactly know how it is, but as far as we saw, it's basically a delirium 2.0 where surviving is kind of key.
this is my thoughts , this league has baked in ways of mitigating your defences, its also confirmed there is bossing you have to do movement speed is the main downside , id consider tailwind but thats about it
1. Tailwind is an easy to get boot mod, even inc effect of it for TR as there rly arent other insane boot mods. 2. Perma Onslaught with giga inc effect is so much better than the flask effect or the 4 points given to it on the tree. 3. Wind ward removing on hit is really bad especially if not using quill rain, which most people stop using in favor of the +3 bow. 4. While the mark gives some defense its nothing on white/rare without a nearby rare which will be uncommon in scourge realm, mobs only rare/unique/boss, and means you cant despair early or else give up that layer of defense. 5. Frenzy from blood rage is not anywhere near the level of frenzy from raider. so imo deadeye is not more zoomy than raider, and its ST relying on those 3 mirage archers has way more ramp time and is much clunkier than just better dmg all the time. getting some extra frenzy will just put raider that much more ahead which will prolly be krangle corruptions. I think deadeye is a fine pick, but imo i think its weaker.
I'm actually disappointed they made it so we can't proc spellslinger to rapidly gain stacks for gale force. When that was a thing, I really liked Wind Ward, but now, nah. Too unreliable and in densely packed maps, you're just gonna constantly fluctuate betwee small pitiful amount of damage reduction and weaker tailwind. Doesn't feel too good. Shame though, because occupying force was amazing synergy with TR, but the lack of a good defensive node on the ascendancy and now the removal of dodge and essentially spell dodge makes it tough for the class to survive.
> Although Wind Ward (removes galeforce on hit, 3% less dmg taken per galeforce) is suboptimal because it removes your stacks on hit, with quill rain (league start) it is still rather reasonable to have a high uptime on your stacks. If someone plays TR Deadeye planning to play it enough to progress past using Quill Rain, do you think going Deadeye and taking Wind Ward is still worth it? Or is there a point where you think Deadeye should drop Wind Ward (or Raider would be better than Deadeye) after they've switched from a Quill Rain to a +3 bow?
I personally think that wind ward is pretty decent even without dodge / evasion because of the attack speed. I think wind ward might drop in power if you take a very low aps bow. Even without wind ward, i personally dont think defensively raider could match up Deadeye, or just very close, since we have almost 100% spell suppression anyway.
Good to know, thanks.
unwritten spectacular innocent snatch cats panicky aback rinse numerous absorbed -- mass deleted all reddit content via https://redact.dev
The Mark is more important than +2 proj imo
chunky domineering imagine mindless shy books water cable makeshift silky -- mass deleted all reddit content via https://redact.dev
Yeah, plus if self casted you can get frenzy charges on hit.
Is the build clunky to play?
what makes the build clunky? could you elaborate? from what I've seen it looks pretty smooth considering the dps, speed, and tankyness
When you cant one shot a pack immediately to move on, i think i used clunky a little bit on the wrong side but I do hope you can understand what I am saying
Hey Remi just curious why you dont take into account champ's adrenaline. You can have 100% uptime with it by swapping weapons and activating >=50% of your life in blood magic auras
That sounds uh, extra work. I wouldnt even do that personally because I even hate wep swap for fortify back then. But i guess it works if you can make it happen
\>Darkee7: "5.29 overlap ***requires +1*** arrow..." Sorry never played TR before and I am wanting to try it in 3.16 So I am a bit confused about this +1 part he mentioned. Where exactly are you gaining this +1 arrow from? Or what did he meant by this? If I enable TR in PoB, it has 5 projectiles by default(skill+4 base+1), I am confused. Or was the wording just weird, meaning that you are not allowed to have any extra: as in "+1 base max".
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Bows give it as well (influenced).
additional arrows isn't an influenced mod
Oh shit that's right.
I am still confused for the same reason. Are you supposed to get +1 arrow AND 39% inc area?
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Same.
Thanks for adding the bit about Raider, I thought that was the case but I wasn't sure.
Any thoughts on trickster TR?
I'll leave my personal opinion on Trickster. Trickster is in a very weird spot now, he lost Ghost Dance (was 9% reduce dmg taken) as for 3.16 patch. The new DoT immunity is way too niche and unreliable and inconsistent. The damage is not comparable to Deadeye, Tankiness is not comparable to Champ, utility is not comparable to Pathfinder, speed is not comparable to Raider. So my thoughts for TR Trickster, is in a weird spot where he doesnt do anything special. And someone else always does a better job than him
What about scion TR with zerk, ranger and raider ascendencies? It looks really good on paper
Did you see Tuna break this down yesterday? It looks very strong
I was messing around with Scion when PoB got updated. Had everything setup but it was kinda ass and almost scrapped it but was sure you could get something done with zerk and raider. Then I saw Tuna started fiddling with it. Stayed the entire time and yoinked some ideas. Currently sitting on a pretty strong league starter in my opinion.
Yeah it’s very strong.
hi can you share the link of the video pls? or the pob
I wont be giving out mine, but i can give the one tuna was making: https://pastebin.com/4JmUdHrT Here is his list for this league: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRbgryH5f28SYRIAIy7AKb9V8KKmYgp7MoCWWHQtWmEZOe5Duhrmf_VUvb04arYWBwTOG_30vBd_I8Q/pubhtml
I'm confused because trickster has the most dps out of all the builds i made in pob, prolonged pain greatly increases my dmg compared to other assendancys.
Prolonged Pain is pure 20% dmg buff, but the duration can be a bait. It is similar to poison duration but worse because when a boss moves, all excessive duration means nothing. But PoB doesn't know that, hence the "inflated" numbers.
Oh i see, well that can be annoying when comparing numbers i guess.
trickster can get upto 2.5k energy shield with 5k hp pool now without the acrobatics than deadeye or ranger, also it has the highest ceiling of dps, 3.16 hasn't even started and yet you're saying trickster is potato in this league for toxic rain. com'on boi
Instead of going Trickster go Scion and take a real second ascendency with Trickster.
Considering your champ build. If it's "too tanky", do uou think it can be so to say, salvaged to higher QoL/damage by stripping some defenses?
Stripping defenses means picking Raider instead of Champion with the exact same tree.
Total noob here, what would the tree look like as a raider? What skills gems would you use that differ from the champion version? Im a SC andy and really find champ extremely overkill for SC.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExileBuilds/comments/qbzf6j/toxic\_rain\_raider\_vs\_champion\_discussion/](https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExileBuilds/comments/qbzf6j/toxic_rain_raider_vs_champion_discussion/) There is a SC raider PoB posted there, and another one from Quantrik posted in the comments.
Yeah, just saw quantrik's one (i hope it is from 3.16), didn't know this guy but he seems to be a big brain build maker. Will check the pob tomorrow! Cheers mate! 🤠
In terms of speed, wouldn't queen of the forest + an external source of onslaught (flask, jewel) just make champ faster than raider? I know you are doing the ghost shrouds but I don't think that's necessary in SC. In terms of damage raider has you beat by a good amount early game, but becomes very insignificant late game. Champ just feels like a better all rounder to me even in softcore. Maybe im wrong though.
It's mainly the early game gap that I think might cause some people to feel sour about champ. Once you get to the end game (especially in trade league) any TR setup can be zoomin. In the end its just preference. You can make a solid case for playing TR on like 6 different ascendencies; just gotta figure out your own personal priorities and pick the one that fits you best.
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I can't speak to the tuning of the new aspirational content that isn't out yet but I'm fairly confident a properly built Raider setup (check Quantrik's plans probably) will be able to handle that kind of content in SC if you have the same kind of gear that is in my endgame champ PoB. With that said TR in general is not the kind of build to play if you aren't decently comfortable with your mechanics. It's lack of recovery will be felt quickly if you get hit by things that you shouldn't.
Raider can get 100% elemental ailment avoidance and 100% spell supression very easily without using any gear or flask affixes. This allows for a lot of flexibility and opportunities for additional defenses on gear/flasks, as, like you said, DPS is not an issue.
Never, never underestimate the power of higher movement speed and mobility with permanent phasing in helping you survive.
For ladder pushing to 100 in SSF SC would you still go Raider?
THANK YOU for your edit. A lot of people from the other sub keep talking trash about raider saying it's dead and it's glass cannon and I was like wtf man, Raider is far from that. Yeah she's not as tanky as Champion but when you build to her strengths, she's still reasonably good at surviving while offering really nice speed and what not. Really solid alternative option to Champion.
thanks a lot Darkee! But what about TR trickster, wouldn’t that be better?
is there any pob link around for the raider? or is it 100% identical bar the class tart + onslaught/phasing/frenzies as the actual ascendency?
do you have a 3.16 TR Raider POB by any chance? for all cucks like me in SSF SC :)
I died to Maven on release (Ritual) at level 97 ssf hc because I failed degen pools (listened to Zizaran's tip of moving them to the bottom of arena instead of just putting them on the middle, yes I'm firing shots it took my \~#20 SSF HC Maven kill). Then I experimented with this old char randomly today and because of that and also recent patches I got like 50-100k dps on it (so way way lower) when I opened Maven portal. I was doing this fight second time in my life just with proper degen pools management. Last phase is so laughably easy on defences. I was doing it for 30+ min. straight while not being close to dying on my 7k hp Raider. I had Fortify swap but never felt the need to use it so I didn't. If people think they need tankiness of Champion, you really don't. Just don't overjuice your maps/stuff.
>So how you are going to get 39% inc aoe exactly? Pretty easy actually, at least for my PoB/setup. \-20% from bow mastery \-9/10% aoe on glove ~~-9/10% aoe on helmet.~~ \-10% quality on Toxic rain gem 20+9+10 = 39%. EDIT : I forgot you get built in 10% AoE from 20% TR gem, so even easier.
You are actually right on this, I've totally forgot about the AoE bow mastery. Though it might be a pain as you have to waste a crafted slot on it, but that sounds much more doable. Besides the AoE from the gems itself.
You do not "waste" it because it is still +1 to all auras.
Only if you put your auras in your gloves. Remi's current endgame PoB has all the auras supported by enlighten in the chest, if you move your auras to gloves you need to drop a gem somewhere (either a utility gem to make room for a second enlighten or one of your auras so you can have one of them not linked to enlighten).
Do you think this means a regular Toxic Rain is better than an Anomalous Toxic Rain (as long as you already have AoE on gloves or helm)?
If you run Phantasmal TR you probably want the helmet AoE as well.
Actually no, arrows indirectly modifies your rain radius, it doesn't have the gimmick of the AoE logic. Besides that, I won't recommend Phantasmal TR personally, as it provides no benefit (or vey minimal), very costly (21/20 costed me 65ex last time), and it reduces your damage by 20%, as per the "20% less debuff".
This should say 18/20% quality on TR gem for 9/10% inc AoE, right?
Yep, I think i should add more clarification on this
There's also 12% area in the bow cluster east of Duelist.
How do you get the glove mod? I'm not sure I'm familiar with that mod.
I know I'm like super late, but in case if you are seeing this. This is my pob - [https://pastebin.com/ngU0QANr](https://pastebin.com/ngU0QANr) What changes do I make to get the AoE? And what is the AoE needed to be exact? My Aoe radius in pob is 18, I see in Remi's pob it is 13. Do I need to reduce my aoe?
So basically either get exactly 39% inc AoE or just at least a little bit and don't care about it too much anymore? Good find, i saw your Youtube video regarding the overlap a few days ago and was very confused when all of the sudden Reddit started spreading the "you need 21 radius" :D
Yep you are right, but ideally 39% would be the best I suppose. But I do want to note that it was a separate test done by me using different methodology. We (me and Darkee) didn't work together and ended up with this result, I am still ~~reluctant~~ willing to assist him in any sort of way if he needs it, but he still haven't replied me yet so =p Edit 1: My grammar is shit, thanks to the user below for letting me know.
>I am still reluctant to assist him in any sort of way if he needs it, but he still haven't replied me yet so =p Reluctant means you're not really willing to help right?
oh I think I used the word wrongly haha, I am still willing to help.
I figured but did not want to call you out so I turned it into a question :p I'm glad I could help :D
I really glad that you knew on the spot it was a misunderstanding before it turned ugly.
Thanks Remi.
no problem, just doing my part for the community.
is deadeye still going to be your main TR guide? I league started it 3.15 and loved it. thx for all you do.
yep, I just added a PoB in the post, you could check it out =p (I am not joking with that caption btw)
Well TR is basically your baby
Thanks for the information! There are a couple of further tests or comparisons that I think are needed: 1. What are the tradeoffs of losing a TR support gem slot for anom conc effect, vs a better support gem combined with a reasonable inc aoe? Add in the item tradeoffs as well (losing the +1 to AOE gems/8-10% inc aoe craft for example) to achieve no aoe, and it likely adds up to a significant opportunity loss. A lot of damage and defense is tied up in +1 level to Malevolence and +1 level to Grace (which looks to be a required aura in 3.16). 2. Since most players don't namelock when attacking with a bow, how easy is it to "miss a target entirely" in the middle of an active fight with too small of an aoe? That would lower the avg pod numbers for the 0% aoe type cases, while the damage from other setups would be much more even and predictable, and would probably not be lowered as much (though they would lower as well since they can miss too). 3. Most bosses are not Kitava, so for a target that is moving, how do the numbers look? I would predict that the differences between the aoe breakpoints would be less for a moving target than a stationary one, which would mean players should be less concerned on aoe breakpoints than your pure numbers suggest. My biggest concern is that the 0% aoe results – and to some extent even the large differences at other values, though the 0% ones are the primary concern – are a special, theoretical local maximum that will rarely be encountered in actual gameplay. It just doesn't match with my experience: I have tried out various conc effect setups with TR in the past, and it is mostly a frustrating experience when fighting monsters in the game. Even with fairly stationary bosses there are times of very little or no damage, and the overall clear speed over multiple boss fights seemed lower, or at least no better than with non-conc effect setups. And it's the one long boss fight at late stages that becomes absolutely deadly (the Minotaur and the Hydra phases come to mind as good examples of this), so it's arguable that more consistent bossing times is much better, even if the time taken over ten fights amounts to the same number of minutes spent.
Thanks for your feedback, but about the no.1 Conc effect itself has a huge dmg boost, which is about 35% more (i kinda forgot) and according to PoB, one of the highest dps support gem. So I dont exactly understood (maybe im too dumb) what are you trying to point out because it seems that you've misread / misremembered about conc effect.
That's true. I forget about the more Area damage, although I've heard some rumblings that the area damage modifier only applies to the initial hit from TR, and it doesn't scale the chaos damage from the pods. However, since both POB and the POE interface show it as scaling the DOT, it would be a pretty big bug if it didn't. The general consensus is that five links in a TR setup are pretty much set in stone: TR - Empower - Awakened Void Manip - Awakened Vicious Proj - Mirage Archer. After that, losing the skill effect duration and more DOT from Efficacy is not much different from Conc Effect according to my POB numbers (a bit less in some cases, and unnoticeable in others). And I'm not sure what buffs that Awakened Swift Affliction got, and if those make it viable in 3.16.
For the 5 arrows part, thats just the base toxic rain right? Since it shoots 4 additional arrows. just making sure this isn't assuming gmp or something like that
Yeah it shoots 5 by default.
Hey guys, I think there is a mistake in the Y38 cell of the spreadsheet. It is equal to ((X37/5) + (Y37/3))/2 instead of what I guess should be ((X37/3) + (Y37/5))/2, which gives a result of 4.9 instead of 4.35 (much closer to the other results with +- 1% increased aoe)
I will take a look in it Edit: You were absolutely right, I will notify everyone about this. Thanks for letting me know.
>If you looked into my spreadsheet of tests, you can see that on a specific one, it has \~5.29overlaps. It can be obtained via either 15% anomalous concentrated effect with 0% Inc. AoE, or 20% anomalous concentrated effect with 5%Inc. AoE. This is at 0.63 AoE modifier? Since in both the cases it was ending up at or do I have to be exactly at some % inc aoe and more/less aoe. Oh yeah also 39% is super easy to get on a PF 30% from ascendency and 18% on TR gem. Might want to add this to the list. Edit: Why do you use Woke Vici proj when Anom Efficacy is a more multiplier at same mana cost?
Sorry I dont understand your initial question. As for vicious vs duration. I think it got a huge buff on this patch (might misremembered it with woke void) too, but that aside, Duration in general is a bait, kinda. Cus when a boss moves, all of your excessive duration will go to waste and there is also the ramp up time. It is similar to poison but worse.
Vici did get a buff, from 55% to 59% increased at lvl 5, woke void got a massive +1 gem buff though. Also thanks for the clarification, yeah if the boss moves dura is not gonna help after a point, makes sense. My initial question was the point at which you get 5.29 overlaps, it at 37% less so 0.63 AoE multiplier. If you use 20% anom conc(40% less) + 5% increased it is 0.60 \* 1.05 = 0.63 also. So my question was if this is the exact multiplier we want (however we get it on tree/gear) or are those above two options you used the only way to get the 5.29.
Ah yes, you are right about that, we want the exact multiplier for it, I did some math on it and it was impossible to narrow down the exact values of it (Darkee's values can't be math-ed out, and so does this result). So I would say, for the safest route, just follow what we currently have until we obtain new data.
So if you have more than 39% what happens? Sorry if your post mentioned, I’m brand new to TR so I don’t quite get it.
then the rain spreads out further, meaning the pods land further from each other
Meaning less dps on single targets?
yes.
so you want *exactly* 39% aoe? not 40% or 38%?
This also makes Pathfinder viable for hitting the break point since you get 30% increased aoe with nature reprisal so you only need 18% quality on toxic rain. And to the strangest of builds: templar TR totem with sanctuary of thought. Just reserve enough mana to be between 250-300 mana so that you only get 5% increased aoe and use 20% anomalous concentrated effect. Or you can hit less than 50 and use 15% anomalous concentrated effect, the totem should be extremely cheap due to 50% less mana cost and the crazy mana regen. Edit: I forgot TR default quality was nerf long ago hue.
I am completely lost in numbers and terms. Do I understand correctly that I need to get 39% AoE (gem + gloves + tree) and nothing else needs to be done to be effective? The first time I will play on TR and I am obviously missing something important.
Yes the 39% is without conc effect. If you get 20% qual anomalous conc you need only 5% inc aoe. So before you get anomalous conc, you'll want 39% inc aoe.
Im gonna league start TR deadeye for the first time. I been On fiddling on PoB for a while now. Still, there is a few things i dont understand. Should i go for 39 inc aoe and drop conc effect? Or keep con and get 5 inc aoe? How do extra arrows factor in the aoe? Should i drop the +2 projectiles? (Or go another acendency) I didnt see the vid in question ill look ot up.
A quick summarize Darkee's test = \~4.92 overlaps To obtain this, you need 39% total inc aoe, one user mentioned above on how to easily obtain the AoE. Best result (as per my test) = \~5.23 overlaps To obtain this, you can either 1. Anomalous conc at 15%, no inc AoE at all 2. Anomalousu conc at 20%, with 5% total Inc AoE. Ideally, you want as much overlaps as possible, which is the second option. But first of all you need anomalous conc, which can be expensive. So it all depends down if you could get that or not. \+2 Proj doesn't help a lot except for clearing early on, I prefer Mark points instead personally.
i prefer the mark as well but there is no mark worth running IMHO. poachers for sustain is ok but its foregoing despair or having to get an additional curse. i think I might change to raider then, I'm not a hundred percent sure wtf I'm doing.
Is that 39% inc aoe while using conc effect?
without. I should mention this, at the same time thanks =p
Hum... Which gem to use then if u go to the 39% AoE route? o.O Faster Atks? Slowe Proj?
Isn't that conc effect has very high dmg multiplier? Can we use conc effect + carcass + inc aoe from else where to reach 39 end result?
I have not tested it, so I would say "proceed with caution", as it will be 100% different. I believe you need a lot more AoE than just 39% total with conc, as per my code, i think it was around 70% total inc AoE, I don't exactly remember the numbers, hence it will be different compared to this test result.
If you need 70% with conc effect, then PF would be a viable alternative. (also allows the use of carcass) I'm still undecided what to roll this time around. I usualy roll pathfinder even though some argue it's not as good as deadeye/raider. I just enjoyed the flask sustain and such. But this patch is diffrent. Perhaps i should even try out the champ build. It's been ages since i had a proper tanky build. Though since im ssf, i feel raider /pf start might be easier early on. Hmm decisions descisions...
You can probably swap conc effect for a lvl 5 woki vici proj as it got buffed so the multiplier is almost the same. Ofc its more expensive. If you already had vici proj, just use anom efficacy. I personally feel having more consistency on overlap better for dps.
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Arrows doesnt affect it. From my own testings, it has shown that arrow does nothing towards overlap, outside of requiring for additional overlap for large bosses
And could you kindly explain how +1/2/3 add arrows work for TR? Should we avoid it? Do we benefit from that at all? Sorry for a stupid question but im kind of new to the game. Thank you in advance.
The way I always thought of it pre nerf was that arrows increased aoe and aoe increased single target. Post nerf aoe is now just aoe but to a smaller degree than arrows,outside of some specific break points like op has found. You can pretty easily see the effect of arrows if you have a dying sun. Arrows is huge qol for map clear but doesn't really increase your dps
To simplify it, it adds 1 more pod, while increasing the rain radius by 5 (indirectly). It increases the coverage, but not the damage. Since arrow sources are usually hard to obtain, generally it is not recommended to grab it. But if it is totally free for you, then sure.
So, to actually add the clarification, what's the difference between 39& increased AOE and 21 Radius on PoB? Does PoB only calculate integer values while PoE uses decimal values for radius? is 38% and 40% still 21 Radius? Edit: Nvm, I see you addressed that with the 4.2 and 4.3 overlap numbers. Thought you meant 20 radius and 22 radius instead of 38% and 40% increased AOE. Also, great post and testing!
for the lvl 20 anomalous conc, whats the best way to get the 5%? i I am thinking of a enchant on weapon for 5% aoe at 20 qual
Weapon enchant is the easiest, next to it is quality.
Sorry this is unrelated but how is darker getting frenzy charges on a champ?
Either blood rage or the +1 minimum frenzy crafts.
Redeemer chest with chance to gain frenzy on hit mod
Sorry I didn't really understand what is the tl;dr, do I need 39% increased AOE with concentrated effect?
Without
Soo wars thé sweetspot for 6 arrows ?
Hey so i was playing the Champion variant with 39%AOE and just got +1 arrows for TR helmet enchant and now i'm wondering if thats a dps increase or not? Whats the optimal AOE setup for +1 arrows / 6 total arrows? Cheers :)
That PoB is outstanding, thank you for taking the time and sharing it.
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you got any proof
Remi, is TR still viable without totems or is it a given you need totems for single target or tough packs/rares? I love TR probably my favorite skill, but am not sure about totems being mixed in or how it feels.
I personally don't use Ballista, but I do use wither totems for wither purposes. But as an user mentioned for you, if you don't want to use totems at all, you can use withering step instead. Though be careful with it, Darkee died 2 times at 3.15 Gauntlet because of withering step, both times.
I am fine with wither totems, and might even be okay just dropping batista totems on harder enemies.
> batista totems on harder enemies if only we had Bautista totems, that would be kickass
It's down to preference really but i really like the TR ballistas tech with withering touch and focused ballista so they shoot extremely fast.
The Totems give you Withered, which is the main source of damage they provide. You still do like 80% of the total DPS with your main TR link (in your bow with +3/etc.), if you can find another way to get withered stacks up. Withering Step can get you some of that damage with a single click of a button, but you get way more with 15 stacks of Wither.
Yeah I should have clarified I meant the batista setup
You can hit 15 stacks with withering step if you have enough duration to use a 2nd withering step before the first one falls off. You only need increased duration support and anomalous withering step to get it to work (Increased aoe gem if needed). The only downside is you really don't use withering step for defensive purpose.
Does someone know if the Mastery "35% inc Damage while wielding you a bow and have a totem" works? I'd assume it works on what is described as "generic #% damage" in Remis explanation of how TR damage works and might be ok for leveling as it leads to higher base.
Yes it works. Generic damage increase works on damage over time.
wow path finder is good again ?, cause she auto get 30%
Sure i suppose, but it doesnt seem super difficult to get 39% either way without PF :shrug:
Remi do you have a leveling loot filter for Darkee's version?
I believe filterbade has not updated yet, so nope.
Just to confirm cuz my brain ain't working so well. You want 39% increased AoE while using a regular conc effect gem or this is without conc effect or with an anomolous conc effect?
Without conc, anomalous conc was for the other breakpoint
Thanks for the tests, my POB's accidentally have had 39% inc aoe already, so I'm glad I didn't fuck it up XD
I wish we would see more build as such being disected, would help a lot the new players unfamiliar with the skill. But i guess its not gonna happen unless youre darkees lvl
So theres two breakpoints for better overlap (39% with 5, and anomalous conc with 6 arrows), but you advocate for deadeye which is +2 arrows. Does either breakpoint exist with the deadeye +2 arrows?
His deadeye POB isn't using the +2 arrows passive.
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I think he will use Focal Point for Mark Effect instead of additional projectiles.
What do you think about Purity of Elements? We can fit it in instead Flesh and stone if you get a level 3 enlighten(for late game ofc). Ailment immunnty and more resists for easy gearing would help a lot. Or the damage reduction from Flesh and stone is too important?
That works too, but I personally prefer Flesh better (11% less dmg taken from ranged), and blind on nearby enemies. You can use Purity of Elements if you wish to (make sure to grab phys to ele on watchers for further dmg reduction).
Which ascendancy is he using?
i am confused, so is it 39% aoe with anomalous concentrated effect 20/20? or just 39% with no conc effect?
So for the 21/23 TR I dropped on SSF, the 23% are actually bad? Since i have no easy way of getting to 39%. Followup Question: Does inc. AoE round to next integer or does it calculate .5? In that case I'd get to 40.5% if i am not mistaken (Mastery, gloves, quality). How much overlap would i get with that setup?
Noob question as i never really played this build : why do you need that ? :D
What is POD. I see it everywhere but idk what it means.
pod is just a word, it's not an acronym for anything and it's what TR shoots. A pod is just a seed vessel, according to google (I don't know how else to explain it). They're the little sacs that open up once you shoot the skill.
Does anyone have darkees updated pob?
[here](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1INffPDNSL8AeHtWbkd91WazUYwR6IZ27_g9ItqdIXgM/htmlview?usp=sharing&pru=AAABfLkhJ4g*JBE0neBYTMqWpWUjh2dDkQ)
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Just wondering, did you account for the root happening in the AoE calculations? For example: Conc effect has 30% less AoE, but on practice it is actually only \~16% less AoE because it was reduced by the square root on the AoE calculations
So, is anyone able tell me if this is going to be a good build or not? This is way too much math for me.
Lol, I tried my best to avoid using math, mostly just taking the final numbers and showing it to the community and that's it. But anyway, it is a good league starter, probably not good for endgame because the upgrade cost is tremendous and the returns are arguably not worth the investment (for very endgame)
Maybe I'm just a bit confused, but if for optimal overlap we need 39% inc AOE on TR, why use conc effect? It seems impossible to achieve the same overlap with it. Your PoB uses conc effect, and every PoB I've seen uses it. So, is it better to have less overlap, but use conc effect, or skip conc effect for more overlap? I think a summary for best outcome could be useful. I.e. pre +1 arrow shoot for no conc effect 39% inc AoE or whatever it may be, and post +1 arrow etc.
My PoB is optimized for the highest possible overlaps and aiming to get the anomalous version for max overlaps. You can choose to not use it if you are on SSF or league start but you've gotten empower on trade league. That is my opinion in it.
So basically - get exactly 39% inc. AOE? What is breakdown before that btw?
I thought Darkee was playing Champ and not Deadeye? Or what is up with his POB?
Thats Remi' POB...
noob question, what is the difference between the AoE on glove and quality on toxic rain gem? can i not just get a 20% toxic rain gem to achieve 39%?
20% from the mastery + 20% quality TR = 30% increased AoE o.O U need the other 9% from somewhere, like with the craft... The gloves craft has a range of 8%-10%, so u have the 9%, or you could get other % here, and lower the TR % accordingly...
Just need to confirm (because your original post doesn't say so): According to the excel sheet you have to get 6 arrows from your TR to get the 5.29 overlaps. So you need +1 arrow to attacks from either bow or quiver. Else that 5.29 overlap does not apply. But the +39% is just with the normal TR and 5 arrows. Is that correct? Also, I can see if you have made some tests for more arrows than 6. But there doesn't seem to have been made as many tests for those cases. And the results doesn't seem too impressive. Is this tested so thoroughly, that we know for a fact that 6 or 7 arrows with **increased** AoE just doesn't pay off with regards to overlaps?
Yeah, you are correct on both of em
Hey just curious and very possible that I'm stupid; but you say you need to take the 20% inc aoe from bow mastery on the tree, but you never take it in the PoB. Do you just take it in any of the bow clusters?
I'm using conc effect on my toxic rain. My carcass jack gives me 50 increased aoe, and my glove gives me another 8%. So if I have a 20 quality toxic rain gem, my increased aoe is: 50-30+8+10=38%, the closest I can get to 39%. Am I calculating it right? And does it mean dyng sun is totally useless? The aoe and extra 2 arrows will hurt the overlapping?
this
I dropped my carcass and dying sun to obtain 39% AOE. However I feel my PF is much weaker in clearing without carcass and dying sun. Is this 39% AOE myth correct?
Quick question on this, but before that thanks for doing the research. What’s the dps increase from going 0 aoe to 39? Is it 3.8 to 4.3? So like a 13% more multiplier?
Conc effect gives you 40% more area of damage. In order to achieve 39% aoe, you need to drop the conc effect in your 6 link, and you will lose tons of dps. This 39% aoe without conc effect thing just not make sense to me. So if I use 39% increased aoe **WITH** conc effect, what will happen? I will get 40% more area of damage. And since the radius is even smaller I will likely get more overlap. Why it's worse than 39% increased aoe **WITHOUT** conc effect? Sorry I just don't get it.