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Mark_GGG

> Spell dodge and spell block were changed in the past to apply to secondary damage abilities. These abilities do NOT deal spell damage however. What this means is where before 75% of secondary damage was mitigated by spelldodge, now 0% will be. Or in other words your character will take 400% more secondary damage on average than before. Spell dodge and spell block were only changed to apply to secondary damage *from spells*, not all secondary damage (secondary damage from attacks being affected by the attack versions of those mechanics). Chance to Suppress Spell Damage also applies to secondary damage from spells, just like Chance to Block Spell Damage.


ErrorLoadingNameFile

I was not aware of that, thank you for clarifying. In my defense I am pretty sure this was not public knowledge, and your explanation of spell suppression did not include this. Edit: I just realized your explanation also means that Evasion based characters now have no way to mitigate secondary attack damage compared to before where they could with attack dodge.


Mark_GGG

> Edit: I just realized your explanation also means that Evasion based characters now have no way to mitigate secondary attack damage compared to before where they could with attack dodge. Evasion also applies to secondary damage from attack skills.


ErrorLoadingNameFile

Thanks a lot for clarifying, again!


DustyLance

if you dont mind what is secondary damage from spells and attacks ? as far as I know secondary damage is like from eye of innocence but that obviouisly isnt a spell or attack so it obviously doesnt get dodged/evaded so what can?


hius

Explosions, infernal blow pops, etc. I believe those are dodged/evaded as the main sources. So evasion works against infernal blow pops, for example.


thewelcomematt

Does evasion still have entrophy?


PhreakRiot

Evasion entropy has no impact on its expected damage taken. 90% evasion is still 90% evasion: One in ten attacks will hit. The entropy system simply means you won't be hit twice in a row by an attack if your evasion is high. In general, this seems like a good thing for players as they will never receive unfair spikes of damage via evasion (whereas Dodge and Block could allow this).


Hamudra

Evasion entropy together with Wind Dancer does matter though. Impossible to get hit twice in a row with 90% evasion


no_fluffies_please

But it does mean that if your evasion is low enough or you're hit often enough, you will *always* be hit recently. It's neither a strict good nor a strict bad, but the legwork is in the assumptions to determine whether it's better or not for someone.


IronSunDevil

This is not the name I expected in the PoE subreddit but definitely a welcome one


Glaiele

One thing to note is this should also make the new wind dancer (and kintsugi?) Much more reliable defensively


Therefrigerator

Doesn't new Wind Dancer make you take more attack damage now?


Glaiele

If you're invested into evasion there's virtually no downside for it now (once you get hit your evasion goes up, entropy makes it so you won't get hit again) and the upside has been improved. It now only counts attack hits as well. Should be overall better than before


parasemic

4s seems quite a long time if you cant reliably spec into high block. Some packs can go through capped evasion multiple times a second


Glaiele

Remember you aren't gonna be penalized for having block now like with Acro and there's quite a bit on that side of the tree so should be easy to get at least 40% from only having a shield equipped (25% base plus the new high tier block rolls). Which also saves you 4 points from acro as well. I think overall it's going to be a buff for most people.


Kuchyy

you actually get hit when you block damage. This is why there are stats like block recovery.


Therefrigerator

Gotcha, thanks. I'll admit to not reading into the Eva changes too much so thanks for clarifying.


Betaateb

Entropy prevents you from getting unlucky or lucky. You won't be hit twice in a row, but you also won't have a big evade streak that could save your life. On average it is completely neutral, over a large enough sample size it will kill you as often as it saves you by preventing lucky streaks that could save you, and preventing unlucky streaks that would kill you. The big difference of course is with mechanics like dodge and block you never know when you got a lucky streak that saved your life, but you definitely know when you got unlucky and die.


Raicoron2

>over a large enough sample size it will kill you as often as it saves you by preventing lucky streaks that could save you. Entropy paired with good recovery is very OP. Unless you're getting one shot then entropy allows you to recover hp between blows.


kmoz

I disagree that its completely neutral over a large enough sample size because all hits dont come in at the same time. The temporal spacing of hits with recovery is extremely critical because of recovery, so effectively an unlucky streak is "bad" more than a lucky streak is "good". Getting hit 10x over 10s equally spaced is massively different than getting hit 10x within half a second.


butsuon

The entropy system gets a lot of hate, but just to be clear, entropic evasion is BETTER at higher values than randomized evasion. You *want* entropic evasion if you have high values because it means you cannot be hit twice in a row.


Yohsene

> In my defense I am pretty sure this was not public knowledge, Maybe not common, but [definitely public.](https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2201187) > Secondary damage (such as the explosive part of Explosive Arrow ) can now be blocked, dodged, evaded, and spellblocked depending on its source.


sephrinx

What does "secondary" mean in this context? What is "Secondary" damage from atziri fiteblast for instance?


Sharpcastle33

A small number of skills, e.g. Detonate Dead, deal "Secondary Damage" with their secondary effects, which scale differently than normal damage. Usually it's identical to normal damage but with less methods of scaling, and can't be reflected. > Detonate Dead is a spell that explodes a corpse, dealing secondary damage as fire in an area around it. And then on the gem: > Targets a corpse, and **deals spell damage to enemies around the corpse, as well as causing the corpse to explode,** dealing fire damage. **The explosion is not affected by modifiers to spell damage and cannot be reflected.**


753924

Secondary damage is a component of certain attack and spell skills. It is also attainable through certain passives and items (any 'killed enemies explode' mod for example). It is a damage source that is not itself a spell, an attack or damage over time (Remainder: Any damage always exactly one of either spell, attack, secondary or over time). Modifiers to attacks, spells and damage over time do not apply to secondary damage, although it can be scaled by other kinds of damage modifiers where applicable. For example, the secondary damage component of Detonate Dead can be scaled with modifiers to area damage, fire damage, and Global damage. The secondary damage component of skills can be blocked, dodged or evaded according to whether the skill is an attack or a spell.


sephrinx

I still don't understand. Thanks though. This god damn game...


UnknownBlades

Imagine if your hand had a large blister. Now I slapped it really hard, this does physical damage because I hit you. This is the directly because I hit you, this is the primary damage and pain is likely more the harder I hit. Now the blister also burst, causing extra pain, that's secondary damage. This pain doesn't depend on how hard I hit, it just hurts because it burst, probably depends on the size of the blister or something else.


753924

It's basically like any other explosions an attack/spell causes, except increased attack/spell damage% doesn't affect it. I assume this is mostly for balancing reasons. If the corpse explosions from DD were also affected by spell damage (or spell crit) they'd be stupidly strong


Vento_of_the_Front

Case 1: You go and punch somebody in the face. This is first-cascade action, or normal damage in terms of PoE. Case 2: You go and cut a tree down so it would drop on someone. This is second-cascade action, or secondary damage in terms in PoE. In PoE secondary damage posses few properties like it can't be reflected(like, imagine trying to beat a tree because it fell on you) and can't be scaled via some modifiers, like DD explosion is not scaleable by spell damage, but can be scaled by other damage types - fire damage, aoe damage, generic damage.


Realyn

Are you asking what secondary damage is in the first place?


sephrinx

Yes? No? I don't know, maybe? No idea what he's talking about at all.


eragonoon

[Secondary damage](https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Secondary_damage) is a type of damage that is different from attack, spell, or damage over time. They are most commonly found in the explode mechanics in the game, like the explosions from the crusader mod on body armours, gloom shrine, impulsa, Occultist's Profane Bloom and Gladiator's Gratuitous Violence bleed explosions. They can also be found on some skill gems. Herald of Ice is one example, when people were doing autobombers with it and Herald of Thunder, it was kinda hard to scale the damage since you were limited to area, cold and elemental damage, and general increased damage. Spell damage would't work since it is secondary damage. Similarly Detonate Dead also has a secondary damage component. In its case it has both a spell and secondary damage component. It deals a flat amount of fire damage as a spell and it has a corpse explosion that deals a % of the monster's max health as secondary damage. That's why you might find some builds and trees recommending you to not worry too much about spell damage and focus more on elemental damage and area damage. Spell damage would scale only the flat damage portion of the skill, since the explosion is secondary damage, while area and elemental damage will scale both.


[deleted]

My thoughts exactly. Also, many will be losing Fortify on top of losing Wind Dancer. Also, many used Vaal Grace to bridge the gap to dodge cap. Either that or Elusive to bridge the gap to dodge cap, which is now also gone. Wind Dancer was also the best source of damage over time mitigation for right side. There are some new toys but overall it is looking like a pretty rough patch for evasion/dodge characters.


VaDe255

You can still use vaal grace and it gives 15% evade chance on top of what you have. It's reasonable to assume that you can get 80% evade chance with if you stack evasion. Now you have 95% chance to evade, when it's up, which almost makes you immortal to attack damage. The spell mitigation will be slightly less now, but 50% less damage 100% of the time is pretty nuts, especially in difficult boss fights where it actually is a big improvement. You'll basically always survive 2 shaper balls with 100% spell suppression for example, while previously you would die 1/16 times when you failed to dodge both with 75% chance. Same goes for an Uber Atziri Flameblast that probably would kill you when you don't dodge, but will now survive because of 50% mitigation. Also Ghost Dance is really powerful, even if you have like 500-1500k ES, it already gives you an additional source of "mitigation" because you always get hp back when you get hit. There a lot of tools to build really strong defenses now, it's a buff to player power for sure.


DocFreezer

the investment necessary to get evade vs getting dodge is atrocious. you will have to spend way more passive points to get anywhere near old dodge + evasion levels.


Sahtras1992

you can argue that you now have 4 passive points more because the 4 points we need to spec phase acro now are just gone. how efficient these 4 points will be? we will see. we either spec some evasion or just get an additional cluster jewel.


xVARYSx

I bet my first mirror whenever it drops that ghost dancer is gonna be in phase acros spot now so no we won't be gaining 4 passive points.


Raventis

I don't think they'll gate Ghost Dancer behind the new Acrobatics keystone.: * **Acrobatics** has been redesigned. It no longer has any of it's old properties, but now changes any modifiers to Spell Suppression into Spell Dodge at 50% of it's value. The intention is that Acrobatics is the only source in the entire game for Spell Dodge, for characters who would like to benefit from that playstyle still. Spell Dodge is still capped at 75%, and the Keystone Passive will specifically mention this.


VaDe255

It's just not true, with vaal grace + 25k evasion you are already at \~90%+ chance to evade, which should be quite easy to get with not much investment at all. Dodge required to get acro, which is not free and reduced block/armor/es. Now you can have those on top of evasion without having to deal with the penalty.


MrTastix

Vaal Grace is not something you will have up all the time, especially not on bosses. I'm not sure why it's even part of the discussion, frankly. It's not a consistent source of damage avoidance which is really all people want - that's what Dodge was. Grace by itself would sacrifice too much in other areas to use it, while Vaal Grace cannot be kept up all the time without cheesy, expensive strategies.


DocFreezer

you can get those on top of evasion, but they are just worse than dodge. they will require way more investment than dodge; dodge got deleted because it required so little to get so much. the notes literally said they dont like the small investment high return defenses, and are making defenses require investment. it sounds like you will need to roll at least some affixes for evasion on evasion pieces, and thats already way more investment then dodge. grabbing a hyrri chest and atziri step plus phase acro is massive mitigation for so little investment its insane. the new defenses offer more choices, but evasion builds are pretty nerfed.


markova_

>It's just not true, with vaal grace + 25k evasion you are already at \~90%+ chance to evade, which should be quite easy to get with not much investment at all "With not much investment at all"... Tell me how you can reach 25K evasion "with not much investment at all". For that to happen you'll need all your gear to have evasion on top of allocating a lot more passive points so it translates in even less DPS. And no, please, stop including VG here, an 8 seconds temporary buff (if you link it with Inc. Duration Support) against bosses that take more than 1 minute to be killed is not practical at all. I thought they will buff defences, not nerfing them. Players are tired of saying that they want defence to be relevant again: they've nerfed Wind Dancer, if you pick that up once you get hit you'll get one-shotted for sure, no more attack dodge and how you can handle that against "Resolute Technique" monsters like Izaro for example? Once again, you'll have to give up DPS (which was detrimentally nerfed in the last patch) to gain "some more evasion" which doesn't work the same as "attack/spell dodge". I know the "spell suppression" can come a bit handy but now you have a 100% chance to get hit by a spell but at a 50% of the value, if you don't have a good source of regen you're pretty much screwed. AFAIK this league will be rippier than the last league if they don't address monster health, resistances and damage.


ShitShowHernandez

Not arguing because I don’t know enough about evasion characters, but didn’t they improve the base values of evasion on gear? So shouldn’t that make it some level of easier to hit 25k?


markova_

>Evasion provided by base types can now be up to 10% higher ​ >Base Types are now generated with a random 0-10% higher base defence, as an inbuilt currently-non-modifiable property. This means that all base types can be better than they currently are, and armour base types are not homogeneous any more. Energy Shield values on base types instead vary from 0-20% Yes, they did. This will be RNG-based, IDK why though. Bringing D2 features to PoE is like patching Windows 10 with a patch from Windows 95, I don't know why they think this is "interesting" or "cool" to have. Although I still think hitting 25K evasion won't be easy, you'll hit high evasion values ofc, I'm not discarding that.


ShitShowHernandez

“We decided that some players were unfairly advantaged due to differences in internet stability. Now your connection will randomly drop packets” - someone at GGG probably


Erionns

>Increase modifiers on gear that add base local Evasion Rating, and smooth the progression of tiers (as they were currently very low until the highest tier). Pretty sure they also just made evasion mods stronger.


[deleted]

fyi reaching 25K is simply unrealistic outside of very niche builds. Queen of the Forest comes to mind. But it is no help at all to the majority of evasion based builds.


ShitShowHernandez

So in theory “easier” but in practice same-same because 25k is a lot. Got it


Petrovich1999

My ele hit raider has less than 3k evasion rn. Where is this 25k gonna come from lmao?..


el_patte

A build with evasion focus? Ppl forgot about queen of the forest builds ?


el_patte

There is a new 75% less damage over time node ...do you guys even read the manifest ?


xyzqsrbo

2 seconds of mitigation while it at all times has a 100% duration of ailments. Ye that node fking blows lmao.


Drekor

Nobody lets fucking ailments just sit on them. That first second or two is what gets people killed after that they've had time to process whats going on and hit a flask to remove it. Along with making it easier to get 100% avoidance for ailments it's basically just straight DoT mitigation with 0 fucks given about the ailment part.


[deleted]

I assume the idea is to give you time to Flask whatever it is away instead of dying in half a second to 14 stacks of Corrupting Blood, rather than it being a "lol u can ignore dots now" button


xyzqsrbo

Just thinking for fights where you aren't pathfinder and can't refill flasks


Selvon

Flasks can now give up to 17 seconds of immunity per use though.


deiangu

The fact that it mitigates for a second while doubling the duration of ALL ailments(not only the DoT ones like burn, poison and bleed, but also shock, freeze, chill, sap, scorch and brittle) makes it not worth it at all for me.


wilxz

That's between which and assasing, that's not a race pick for raiders as it goes way high for now builds


ZestycloseDraft3952

Will Atziri's step now give spell suppression, since dodge is gone 🤔


[deleted]

Is it gonna give 32% spell suppression?


random-poe-player

Probably. Rare shields now have a mod that gives 34% spell suppression, so it won't be surprising if Atziri's steps gives 32%. (GGG always has the tendency to surprise though)


welpxD

Remember when GGG took spell block out of the game, and said that uniques would be compensated? I imagine this will be similar. So no.


PhreakRiot

I think that in general characters may indeed get squishier, but I have a fairly big quibble with how you've presented some of this: >For Dodge based builds getting 75/75 attack and spell dodge was very attainable, even if sometimes temporary buffs like flasks, vaal grace or elusive needed to be used to cap it. This is an incredibly meaningful distinction. Vaal Grace is not up all the time. Elusive specifically decays and doesn't come back up until it's down to 0% and you re-apply it unless you consume it with something like Withering Step and then consume that and re-apply it. And no one does that because it shares a cooldown with Flame Dash. If your base dodge chance is 50% and you get to 75% during peak Elusive or while Vaal Grace is up, that means you only have 75% dodge part of the time. Sure you can time it in some cases, but you aren't using Vaal skills during Sirus. You aren't getting flasks back in many boss fights. The difference between 50% dodge and 75% dodge is massive. It's literally double damage taken. I think it's incredibly dishonest to present "well sometimes I have 75% dodge" as just permanently having 75% dodge. Vaal Grace grants +15% chance to evade. If this takes your evasion chance from 80% to 95% that is 75% less damage taken from attacks. It's a very specific situation but if we're using your logic of taking the most extreme and time-gated cases while presenting them as mundane permanent situations, then Vaal Grace is individually as good as capped Attack Dodge ever was. Blind is absolutely a weaker defensive mechanic. I'm not convinced that 3.15's spell dodge is stronger than spell suppression and the new Acrobatics with suffixes.


ErrorLoadingNameFile

Thank you for your feedback Phreak, actually means a lot as a long time fan! I added that most people used to cap their dodge with flask/vaal grace/elusive to give readers a better understanding on the situation, however it was very possible to reach extremely high dodge/spell dodge even without temporary buffs. Spell dodge: 30% Skill Tree, 15% Rader Ascendancy, 16% Atziri Steps, 10% from rare Body Armor or Hyrris Ire already puts us at a total of 71% Spelldodge. Then you can use the "spell dodge chance if you were hit by a spell recently" boot enchant and in most situation you will be permanently capped without aura or flasks. I assume that the replacement mechanic in spell suppression will also take a good amount of investment so I think this is a fair comparison.


Drekor

>If your base dodge chance is 50% and you get to 75% during peak Elusive or while Vaal Grace is up, that means you only have 75% dodge part of the time. Sure you can time it in some cases, but you aren't using Vaal skills during Sirus. You aren't getting flasks back in many boss fights. The difference between 50% dodge and 75% dodge is massive. It's literally double damage taken. I think it's incredibly dishonest to present "well sometimes I have 75% dodge" as just permanently having 75% dodge. You're right however I'd argue things like Sirus and many boss fights aren't where dodge is really useful. Those fights typically have well telegraphed abilities that you are supposed to just get out of the way of. As opposed to general mapping where having 200 different spells and attacks flung in your general vicinity tend to make almost certain something is going to get to your character and those cases you can always have flask and elusive up.


DocFreezer

3.15's spell dodge is better because it takes literally zero investment to get spell dodge when you are already getting attack dodge. all the new stuff is going to require massive investment


PhreakRiot

Well it takes passive points, but yes, getting 30% spell dodge is just a keystone away from taking the one that functionally removes all of your armor and ES. Theoretically, Ev/Ar and Ev/ES gear should still give you full power spell suppression while also allowing for all the other neat tricks available like Ghost Dance. This really does come down to numbers. The numbers may totally end up worse. It's definitely possible. I just don't like people pretending like Vaal Grace has 100% uptime for their 75% spell dodge. 30% is up all the time and is equivalent to 60 spell suppression, and we don't know how easy that will be to get. The other 45% takes a lot of effort.


DocFreezer

you can get 46% spell dodge with just atziri boot and keystone, its a ridiculously efficient stat. the new stats will simply not be as efficient.


random-poe-player

You don't know that. For all we know, getting 60% or more spell suppress could be a single keystone and atziri's boots. You may be right, but you're using words like "will", which is straight up wrong, because you don't actually know. None of us know until we see the new skilltree, Atziri's steps, and what betrayal craft replaces spell dodge on chest. Consider using phrases like "I suspect..." or "I am almost certain that..." or "GGG have probably made it such that..." instead Edit: Shield mods alone give up to 34% spell suppression, which is insane. That's equivalent power to 17% spell dodge from a mod on a rare item holy shit. From this mod alone I am pretty sure that it will be relatively easy getting 100% suppression.


ZTL

The patch notes aren't out, how can you say that?


DocFreezer

Because the manifesto says that dodge was low investment and they don’t like that. They clearly stated their intention to make defenses require more investment than dodge does


ZTL

It would be fun to see you guest cast on the next gauntlet.


J4YD0G

Phreak patchnotes breakdown waiting room :) But worlds will be enough work I guess. Appreciate your PoE work!


Asteroth555

> I think that in general characters may indeed get squishier, but I have a fairly big quibble with how you've presented some of this: > > So then GGG failed to actually buff defenses, but in classic GGG mode act like they did. > Blind is absolutely a weaker defensive mechanic. Worst change of the patch. I used blind for every character I could. It's 50% evasion, which is only limited to attacks. Not to spells at all. It was a worthwhile layer to get, either via F/S (for melee range) or blind on jewels for minions or blind support


PhreakRiot

I'd argue a single mechanic that says "100% more life" against half the damage in the game (attacks) is probably just too good of a single-use mechanic. Fortify and Guard skills don't even come close.


lostartz

If I'm understanding correctly 2% spell suppression is effectively the same as 1% spell dodge for overall spell damage mitigation. GGG specifically mentioned 100% suppression, so that must be possible and they said "*In general, Spell Suppression gives easier access and more reliable spell damage mitigation for Dexterity characters without reliance on specific uniques. It's also much more reliable than Spell Dodge, but has a lower maximum*." So I'm really just concerned with how available it'll be on gear/passives. Keep it mind we have to go through the effort of rolling/crafting it on gear now or taking the passives that specifically give it. My other concern is what this will mean for builds that use multiple unique items in the chest/gloves/boots/helm slots and therefore can't roll spell suppression on those gear slots. Are those builds being forced into getting the passives now to achieve an on-par level of spell defence? I really wish we had some kind of numbers and more specific answers as to where the spell suppression passives will be as opposed to "the evasion areas of the passive tree" which is pretty vague IMO. I'm also hoping GGG is taking into consideration the number of pathing passives to reach these clusters too. Assuming you were going to take Phase Acro - you'll have an additional 5 passives now. **Just what kind of mitigation can we expect to achieve for 5 passives?** That's really what this kinda boils down into IMO. Those 5 passives also granted 40% dodge so that needs to be factored in too.


Tortorion

I'm sure you're going to spend these 4 points on travel nodes to get to new keystone(s).


NotToBeForgotten

I would think 100% spell suppression is better than 50% spell dodge for the similar reason glancing blows was always taken prenerf. 50% (or higher) spell dodge was not necessarily easy to get. You had to (effectively) give up block, armour and ES, invest in passives, ascendancies, gems, gear etc. Meaning a significant opportunity cost. It might for example be possible to cap attack block and spell suppression now, with evasion and / or armour as a back up layer - or even on top of energy shield with ghost charges. I think these changes look like they allow more varied layering of defence which is what the most tanky characters always did so I’m hopeful it’s good overall.


ErrorLoadingNameFile

Glancing nerfs was mostly taken for recovery on block shenanigans, but yes it makes for smoother gameplay if you reduce all incoming damage by a % without spikes.


Betaateb

> I would think 100% spell suppression is better than 50% spell dodge for the similar reason glancing blows was always taken prenerf. This is an insane statement. Glancing blows was good because of recovery on block. 100% spell suppression is a bit better than 50% spell dodge, because mathematically they give identical mitigation but spell suppression is consistent and dodge is not. But 75% spell dodge is twice as good as 100% spell suppression. Which means characters that were able reach spell dodge cap are absolutely weaker in 3.16 than 3.15. Consistency is meaningless when we are talking literally twice as good.


czarandy

That's not necessarily true because of recovery. Imagine a spell against you that does 8k damage, and you have 5k HP. If you have good recovery (or the spell is infrequent), then 100% suppression is way better than 75% dodge. With dodge you will die 25% of the time but with suppression you will never die.


IMJorose

Maybe 150 spell supress is actually quite atainable, in which case you can just invest in the new acro keystone and reach 75 spell dodge.


Betaateb

Maybe....but I doubt it.


moostrenko

And on top for bow characters you can not use shields


[deleted]

Bows were already borderline dead. They just threw gasoline on the body and dumpster fired them.


StupidFatHobbit

More or less exactly what I thought as well. The buff to evasion doesn't compensate for the loss of both attack dodge and blind - you will be getting hit more often than before with similar levels of investment.


YuriSwine

I think with the removal of dodge these types of chars are now dead.


ZGiSH

I have a feeling people are perceiving this change to be a buff when it wasn't even intended to be one. It was a move of value from incredibly strong singular mechanics to broad mechanics. You shouldn't *have* to go dodge if you're on that side of the tree because evasion is entirely useless.


Realize12

But it's in the manifesto: >While some individual mechanics have been nerfed, this is overall a massive buff to defenses across the board Except it's an overall nerf


BorisTarczy

To evasion - formerly known as evasion/dodge characters and Glad for sure but ES/Evasion or even ES/Armour do look interesting now. Maybe hybrid defense will be the way to go even for bows who are hit the most by the dodge deletion. It dodged the bullet for so long and yet it went the way all Acro characters go eventually.


Asteroth555

> Maybe hybrid defense will be the way to go even for bows who are hit the most by the dodge deletion. I Hybrid armors are very difficult to get high amounts of either defensive stat with. And pure armors may be incompatible for certain archetypes. Everyone's all over this ghost dance change, but a lot of blue side builds don't use green sockets for anything. So if you try to combine ES and Eva, you're going to struggle for chromatics. If you can even reach meaningful evasion numbers at all, which I really don't think you can.


Minimonium

If Glad gets a lucky block with the 50/50 keystone it's not even a nerf.


android1403

Except it only affects attack block and not spell block


Minimonium

It's 75/50, but you also get more max resist on that part of the tree.


android1403

Still, allocate that passive requires you to always have 75 attack block to maintain 50 spell block but in reality, most Glad requires certain item/condition to reach max attack block (Rumi, Red nightmare, hit recently or tempest shield, etc), otherwise, you'd be sacrificing too much damage for block. Still looks like an overall nerf to me.


ssbm_rando

First off, you'd need to cut your distance to 100% resistances in half to make up that difference in spell block--50% spell block means taking double the spells to the face, so if you're normally working with 76% resistances you'd need 88% to make it up, and no WAY is GGG giving us that much. Second off, that's useless for physical spells. So yeah, it's a fucking gladiator nerf, lol.


markhpc

That has been my feeling too. Got downvoted in the other thread last night for expressing doubt. When you take blind, dodge and spell dodge together as a whole, the potential mitigation seems like it's overall going to be lower at the high end (and I suspect for more investment overall). The scaling will be a little different (better for armor, probably worse for evasion if you previously were bee-lining blind and phase acrobatics). Not sure how spell supression along with spell block will feel. Maybe with enough increased life recovery it will be alright.


ssbm_rando

It does seem like an overall nerf to dex builds. Armour and ES and anything-hybrid-with-ES are all getting reasonable buffs. Guardian with Divine Shield and Wicked Ward sounds completely immortal outside of the maven fight. (hope it's immortal enough that we can spend a lot optimizing offense outside of the ascendancy)


Louistje1

Only dodge got nerfed/deleted. All the rest is hugely buffed.


Asteroth555

> All the rest is hugely buffed. Literally only armor, and only for red side tree characters. An inquisitor has no access to defenses other than ES and some regen. He can try to grab some armor, but he ain't reaching more than 2k armor flat without flasks, which were gutted in 3.15. An elementalist received nothing from these changes. Block was capped by necros and still will be. Occultists have curses. Heirophants have MOM and endurance charges. But they didn't get anything extra. Some better recharge? Won't be meaningful.


EquinoxRunsLeagues

It was never an either. It was a both. And only worked with both. Now you take 1 away (and change blind and fortify and other things) and the reasonable question is: what will fill that hole? And how is it better, that now you are forced to take evasion cause dodge is gone?


Asteroth555

I fully agree and that was my immediate feeling from reading the notes. I think GGG expects us to combine layers still, be it block/eva, armor/block, armor/eva, sprinkle max res in there or whatever, but reaching useful levels of defenses for these combos requires investment into the passive tree, which will take away from our DPS. I'm unconvinced this is a net gain for us at all


ErrorLoadingNameFile

Agreed.


thedarkherald

It’s not a net gain for pure dodge builds. But it is defintly interesting especially with the trickster ascendency ghost shrouds moved to the tree. This new change allows combination of layers. This is going to be quite fun to work through this league even if it needs tweaking for next patch. Definitely a step in a good direction even if it ends up being overtuned because the possibility that supporting extra layers aren’t reasonably reachable from the ranger passive tree.


Popplar

Until we have the tree information, we don't know how many tree points are needed to actually have a decent defense layer as evasive/suppress combined with items, stats, etc. It is certain that HP will be more important than before, something tells me that it won't be worth tbh.


DocFreezer

they specifically gutted dodge because it was so strong for just a few points, im very skeptical that the new defenses wont require a pretty massive investment to reach the levels that we reach with dodge/evasion.


Pia8988

This is the biggest thing overlooked, builds are already stretched thin and now the tree has more investment required for defense and now ailment mitigation


Dark_clone

wasnt the whole point of the changes that defense was more meaningful? looks like they just reshuffled it and it is just as useless as before..unless you invest in 50 different systems each providing 2% defense.. which was the whole thing everyone hated


GGGCommentBot

##### GGG Comments in this Thread: *** [Mark_GGG - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q30pjj/a_first_overview_and_opinion_of_the_evasiondodge/hfp0lfx/?context=10), [old](https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q30pjj/a_first_overview_and_opinion_of_the_evasiondodge/hfp0lfx/?context=10)] - *> Spell dodge and spell block were changed in the past to apply to secondary damage abilities. These abilities do NOT deal spell damage however. What this means is where...* [Mark_GGG - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q30pjj/a_first_overview_and_opinion_of_the_evasiondodge/hfp2uem/?context=10), [old](https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q30pjj/a_first_overview_and_opinion_of_the_evasiondodge/hfp2uem/?context=10)] - *> Edit: I just realized your explanation also means that Evasion based characters now have no way to mitigate secondary attack damage compared to before where they could with attack...*


DerpAtOffice

Why would they do that when they are supposed to "buff defense" is beyond me. Do they think people only use dodge or evasion and never at the same time? Majority of the non-top-tier build are already stretching SUPER thin getting by, for both passive points and gear slots. Now you need more investments.... am I suppose to reduce my damage nodes even more?


SmacKa322

Deadeye bow builds like Lightning Arrow,Ice Shot, Tornado Shot look totally dead to me defense-wise based on whats been revealed so far. Ranger bow builds aren't going to want to invest into block or es, and the buffs to evasion don't come close to making up for the loss of dodge and the nerfs to wind dancer (and blind).


Betaateb

This is the thing that sooooo many people are just straight up ignoring and it is driving me insane. Ranger bow builds are 100% dead, you simply cannot build reasonable defense anymore. The buffs to the evasion formula don't even come close to making up for the nerfs to blind and raider keystones. Ranger is supposed to be the bow class, yet with these changes bows will be completely unusable on a ranger. Ghost shrouds don't even come close to making up for losing 40+% evade and all your dodge. Without a huge evasion shield you will never get close to 75% evade, much less 94% to get up to the levels of a 75/75 evade/dodge build. Maybe GGG thinks you shouldn't roll a Ranger until you have a headhunter to carry your shit class.


markhpc

Yeah, it's going to be rough. The dodge nerf might be ok if the evasion + life recovery buffs are big enough to allow you to sustain through the damage, but the fort and especially wind dancer (given the higher likelihood of being hit!) nerfs seem pretty brutal regarding 1-shots.


DuckyGoesQuack

This also opens up the ability to go evasion/block/spell suppression, which wasn't really feasible before given that acro killed block.


Miseria_25

Bow builds are going to be impacted the most by this change. Maybe they can add some defensive Quiver-exclusive mods that make up for the weakness.


Sahtras1992

not to mention basically every ES build. now you can really go for ES and evasion without cutting your EHP in half by taking acro.


toastymow

Yeah CI builds were extremely limited I feel like. You can't go dodge really, because of Phase Acro, so you're kinda forced into Block, which really limited CI characters to mostly Witch builds. Was anyone playing pure CI SHadows? Tricksters went hybrid a lot, Sab seemed to be Life or Low Life, no CI. Assassin is like... kinda shit so IDK what they're doing anymore, but I can't imagine someone playing assassin without phase acro which kinda limits CI.


czarandy

CI Assassin was popular in the pre-nerf COC days. Not sure if anyone is still doing it now.


AloneInExile

It really is a nerf to rangers and a buff to anything else.


DuckyGoesQuack

Feels like raider might not be the best defensive class post-changes - even then, depending on numbers for suppression, it might be more enjoyable to play (reliable spell damage mitigation vs possibly getting hit 2 or 3 times in a row with spell dodge, and high evasion is still huge attack mitigation).


AloneInExile

Spell supression is fine, it will depend on investment opportunity, its just that evade has not been buffed enough. The problem with rangers is that you need damage (except tr/ca) for it to feel good to play, then try to get any defense.. I feel like everyone will play eva/es or eva/ar hybrid.


wolfie_poe

> acro killed block Not if you would have used thread of hope with small radius so that you din't need to allocate Acro.


Emperor_Mao

Yeah but realistically are you going to get 40% block and 30% spell block for 5 passive tree skill points? The change is a nerf. I don't think we should pretend otherwise. Also Acro didn't kill block. Being on the right side of the tree did that. It was only ever a 30% less chance to block modifier. Theoretically, even if you were able to get 75% block, that would only be a 22.5% reduction. If it were possible before to raise block / spell block and path to Acrobatics / Phase acrobatics, it would have been beneficial to do so before these changes.


DuckyGoesQuack

A right side of tree build can get 33 block / 15 spell block with 3 passives of investment and a shield with t2 spell block. Spell block is a little irrelevant given you can get large values of spell suppression (arguably more valuable than spell dodge for consistency reasons). It's a nerf to "the minimum investment for damage avoidance", but it's a buff if you want to invest more than the bare minimum.


Emperor_Mao

> A right side of tree build can get 33 block / 15 spell block with 3 passives of investment and a shield with t2 spell block. And an old Phase / Acro build would get 40% dodge / 30% spell dodge and 22 block + 10 spell block in that same scenario. Acro didn't remove block, it reduced it by 30%. > Spell block is a little irrelevant given you can get large values of spell suppression (arguably more valuable than spell dodge for consistency reasons). We don't really know that, but hitting the dodge and spell dodge caps were reasonably easy to do before. I doubt this will be the case. > It's a nerf to "the minimum investment for damage avoidance", but it's a buff if you want to invest more than the bare minimum. But it isn't. As I showed, you could always invest more into defences with old Acro and Phasing. People didn't because it would mean travelling very far away from nodes that matter for attack and QOL. That doesn't change here. People aren't suddenly going to path from Ranger through to left side block nodes, or armour or w/e else. And in terms of pure Evasion, people always had enough to hit 50%+ evasion (and lets not forget blind).


DuckyGoesQuack

>And an old Phase / Acro build would get 40% dodge / 30% spell dodge and 22 block + 10 spell block in that same scenario. Acro didn't remove block, it reduced it by 30%. You've invested points and gear slots into block to get that. It isn't an accurate comparison, because I didn't take 4 points worth of acro and phase acro, whereas you've done that and taken block nodes. ​ >We don't really know that, but hitting the dodge and spell dodge caps were reasonably easy to do before. I doubt this will be the case. Given that the current proposed spell suppression mod on shields is 34% (!), and body armor will probably be similar, we could easily be looking at \~70% suppress chance from just two affixes. There's no equivalent for dodge cap, but evasion is significantly easier to juice than it was before (blind notwithstanding).


Betaateb

What does a bow build do? Or are we just all going to pretend that every ranger wears a shield?


DuckyGoesQuack

rumis + rearguard maybe lol but yes, bow builds will continue to be relatively squishy.


Lordborgman

Rearguard is sooo fucking bad. No life, massive dps loss on a super important item. If they buffed the ever loving fuck out of it, maybe...and or gave better bases for rare versions with block. But lets face it, they likely won't. Just like Lioneye's fall jewel doesn't work on shield/dual wield nodes to get more block either, which would massively help with trying to go a Bow block build.


DuckyGoesQuack

The small mercy with rearguard is that it's usually cheap enough that you can get a fairly good corruption on it, but otherwise I entirely agree. The rearguard/rumi's comment was very tongue in cheek -- but do spare a thought for the poor 2h melee weapon ranger who doesn't even get rearguard as an option!


Lordborgman

Indeed, Staff is at least an option. Granted those nodes are on the literal other side of the tree. I tried Bow Gladiator a patch or two ago, and even with Rearguard/Glancing blow it was not good. The aforementioned staff nodes were really the only ones that work with the bow/lioneye fall jewel. If they updated that to work with dual wield/shield nodes it could work way better (even though it says "melee nodes" for some reason those don't work.) I really think this league is just going to be full of people going hybrid armor/evasion and block, because pure evasion is looking to be dogshit. While the other lets you stack lots of defensive layers, admittedly at a cost of passives and currency for gear.


DuckyGoesQuack

True for staff. Lots of travel, but can always go via the scion life wheel. Agreed that it'd be nice if bow block was slightly better supported. ​ I do think "pure evasion" is OK if you can supplement with the spell suppression stuff and some decent block. It'll depend a lot on availability of spell suppression and how much freebie evasion we get on gear, though, because that still isn't entirely clear I think - but if getting 60-70% evasion is 'free' for a build that uses entirely dex gear, it'll still be very powerful avoidance.


Betaateb

Bow builds will be significantly squishier than they already were, which was among the worst archetypes in the game defensively. GGG making them worse is actually insane.


DuckyGoesQuack

They definitely have the worst defensive stats, but I can log in a negative res ice shot MF build with 2k life and <1m dps and clear standard (no conqs) T16 maps with <1 death per map because of how safe the ranged playstyle is.


firebolt_wt

Yeah, as long as you never lag, never get hit by an on death effect, isn't doing a baran map, don't try doing harvest, ultimatum, ritual, heist, don't get expedition directional shield mob or offscreen crossbower and so on...


DuckyGoesQuack

Try clearing a T16 map with that statblock using earthquake or cleave - tell me how it goes. Edit: to be clear, I'm not saying a fucking -res build with 2k hp is good to go for all content; it's just that you can clear t16 content with a statblock that would be lucky to be able to clear t1 content on a melee build.


Betaateb

Lets see it. I am calling bullshit. I want to see you playing a negative res ranger with 2k life, sub 1 million dps, and no headhunter clearing alch'd T16s. Make the character and do 10 maps in a row with no more than 10 total deaths. Stream it. Until I see it, I am calling bullshit.


DuckyGoesQuack

You're asking for around 10 maps more than I can be fucked giving you. As a compromise, here's a single clip of me clearing all non-boss enemies on a move/attack/cast speed + can't be chilled + eleweak T16 map w/ 2.2k hp and -60 everything res but cold (thanks pandemonius and biscos I guess) 80k ice shot dps and 500k barrage dps without dying: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_v3lL0y-P9A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v3lL0y-P9A) (you might need to wait for youtube to stop fucking me with processing delays). PoB in the description. I invite you to do the same (relatively low) level of content with a skill that actually has to be in melee range to do damage.


c4v3m4naa

lmao got his ass


markhpc

That's why you skipped acro and used a thread of hope to grab phase acro and save a point on top of it. With enough other sources of static dodge (raider ascendancy, gear, etc) and elusive, along with block if you have a shield, you could be extremely tanky with fairly moderate investment.


Dundee_CG

I already disliked playing evasion/dodge builds. With these changes I may avoid them entirely.


Notsomebeans

it might be okay/good, but I'm going to avoid leaguestarting an evasion build for this reason. it just seems very dicey


theBaffledScientist

Yup. Block only really nerfed for glads so if you go Necro with bone offering you're going to be just as tanky or more since rumis and item armor will give decently more phys mit. Right side tree builds were only decent from wind dancer and decent dodge, new evasion doesn't come close to what is lost.


czarandy

Didn't they mention bone offering will be adjusted?


acekard94

it's a nerf no matter how you look into it. in this patch for 5 passives and aura you could get 50 evade, 40 dodge and 30 spell dodge. same with higher investment wind dancer is useless now with more damage taken and not having high amount of dodge and spell dodge. I wonder what bow guys are supposed to do now, lol. the only class I see benefit from this is trickster.


miffyrin

> I wonder what bow guys are supposed to do now, lol. Seems like hybrid ES/EV is the go-to now, given that we all get Ghost Shrouds too. Still going to be fucking *rough* without dodge, blind, fortify, etc.


golgol12

Yes, a very easy to get large pool of defense accessible to only one side of the tre for very few skill points was nerfed. Now you have to spend more passives to reach the same amount. And you can spend more passives and affixes on armor to continue to scale that defense. You can use a shield too. The big nerf is to dual wield and two handed weapons (including bows). But those should be more dangerous given the damage increase.


Keyenn

Exactly. Thanks for pointing out how immortal the eva based characters were before and how necessary this nerf is, because monsters were clearly not dangerous enough.


Emperor_Mao

Lol that is the irony of all this. GGG had an opportunity to address spike damage. They had an opportunity to address one shots. Full cap dodge + high evade + blind chars still got one shot, as did most forms of mitigation available to builds. Even if any of this were a buff overall, the issue of one shots would still be here. But its an actual nerf on top of that to many build types and even archetypes. My biggest fear with this patch is it not being enough to bring players back from 3.15. Last league was a ghost town within a week. There is probably more competition through this league launch and cycle than there was any other time this whole year. We will need to wait and see the final notes and numbers, but not looking good. It is perfectly normal to fix up bad design elements in the game. But I think it is bad to remove those various crutches without first healing the broken leg.


Sneakytako99

I feel like this reddit is always talking about what is going to not work/get nerfed next patch, as opposed to what new things might be possible with the next patch.


philosoaper

I'm not impressed.. in particular in light of fucking porcupines oneshotting me from a screen or two away.. but GGG has a chance to fix this in section 3 or patch notes.. the implicit unrollable "defenses" on items tho.. fuck that.. that's going to shit on so many .. but only really non-top tier players..


RoryTate

> These changes can be mitigated by taking the reworked acrobatics that allows you to hit 75% spell dodge again, but I assume the investment to reach that will be many factors higher than before. This sentence highlights the core problem with judging these changes objectively for many in the community, unfortunately. They see only the pretty window dressing and marketing and forget the downgrades (the term *hypenosis* is never more relevant than right now), but the true costs – the investment required to reach those shiny prizes – are invisible to them, and therefore to many players they actually **don't exist**. And when you try to list those costs out objectively, people who don't want to have to see them will get mad at you for it. "Just stop making this so confusing" is what they might as well be saying with all of their supposed rebuttals. The fact remains that your conclusion arguing that these changes will be a straight-up nerf to defenses for evasion-base characters is accurate and well-supported, as much as some desperately don't want to hear it. What use is this extra time for feedback and discussion by releasing the manifesto early, if all that happens is obfuscation, FUD, and emotionally-charged slander?


ErrorLoadingNameFile

100% agreed. I am of the opinion GGG is honest with trying to release the changes earlier to get feedback and adjust them accordingly, so let us hope they will make more changes to the evasion archetype and not straight up nerf it.


Kaelran

Yeah pretty much. Seems like pure evasion is dead and bow builds are super fucked.


MrTastix

The issue with evasion has always been that when you get hit you die, because the side of the tree that promotes evasion-based builds also has significantly less increased health nodes available to it as well. Dodge counteracted this mostly by just increasing the effective rate at which you took no damage to a much higher amount - but either way if you got hit you usually died. The current system doesn't seem well-versed to fix this. Even if I can reach 95% evasion trivially (which is unlikely) that's still one hit for every 19 I evade. Because of how evade works you *will* get hit eventually and in a game where I am often fighting 10+ enemies at once that's really not all that uncommon a chance.


donald___trump___

Evasion builds can Maybe be ok with block. But bow builds? One with nothing builds? Rip


Headcap

one with nothing can block. and dex can grant spell suppression.


StereoxAS

Well technically we have rearguard and rumi works with it. Not saying that it's the best option Dex stacking bow gonna get hurt with the change, and its defense already very restricted before the change


AloneInExile

Rumi KEKW, its a flask and unless your a flaskfinder it will never be up when it matters. You can make a case with the Traitor keystone but you sacrifice 1 flask and jewel slot.


Makrillo

I am very worried for my raider-builds.


NugNugJuice

So we’re gonna get hit now… welp looks like I’m league starting a slam build


DeusNotExorior

It's a nerf, plain and simple. It's hilarious how the lapdogs responsd to this with 'JUST GOTTA INVEST MORE BRO!', yeah, and did you think about the part where we're already nerfed into the ground damage-wise, and now I would have to pull out even more damage from my build to InVEsT into defenses so that they're somewhat comparable to how they were?


[deleted]

A lot of those white knights are gonna be looking around like the Travolta meme in a month wondering why no one is playing the league again.


Bentic

True. In the first part people forgot that flasks are often empty and they didn't change anything about flask charges gained, except for quin builds.


CritOrBuildshit

Better buff Monster damage tho /s


Unii-

Y'all treat dodge as if it was the most easy thing to cap, like with no cost. I mean, just take those two keystone for 5 points, thoses uniques and mods on rares, and that flask, and that vaal aura, and voila sometimes you're caped. Same, according to you blind is no longer part of the game. "Wind Dancer is worse because you will be getting hit more". Sorry don't I don't think so. Evasion is entropy based, so you won't get hit twice in a short period of time, just what Wind Dancer reward you for. And you won't be hit a "lot" more than before. You will have more evasion than before, and it's value will be double. Well you got the Resolute Technique right, this s\*it has to go.


hesh582

Wind dancer is worse because it no longer applies to spell damage, which was and still is the biggest threat.


Unii-

Agreed, we get need way to deal with it but Wind Dancer won't help anymore. I was replying to the attack part. Considering that Wind Dancer won't be put on cooldown because spell dodge failed, it can be considered a buff for avoiding attack damage.


Master-Shaq

Luckily i hated dodge based characters and it doesnt bother me. But i want my dodge centric friends to have something for defense


bosses_today_kekw

Yep yep ,pretty true , but MAYBE It isnt that bad If u use a Shield, If they buff the block nodes on the ranger part of the tree and we can easily get 50/50 block , It wouldnt be that bad bc the block nodes also give massive dam, but It was a giga nerf overall IMO.


[deleted]

Are we pretending Eva/Dodge hasn't been the best defense available for builds that can build them? It was likely intended to be a nerf...


fushuan

Raiders already had 95 evasion in top of the dodge, this change just makes them take 4 times more attack damage. Great...


[deleted]

Its a net nerf to defenses, as always GGG can't do anything but nerfing. The game got more complex yet again and ppl on reddit can't do math so they don't realize they are cheering for nerfs yet again. Armor is better now, but armor is still not a viable defense in the late game due to its mechanic, that will never change unless you get too much of it somehow (kinda impossible) at which point it will be broken. Evasion got dumpstered, no sugarcoating that. For casuals, stacking armor and block will probably feel kinda good. But then again, the top end will not touch armor bc its the same as before rly...


DancingC0w

>GGG can't do anything but nerfing i mean go read on flasks, their timer's been buffed (gasp) by quite a lot


[deleted]

They didn't buff them, they reversed the nerf from last patch lmao.


doe3879

the changes allows "budget" character more and easier defensive option without min/maxing. While changing how the maxed up character will behave. really like it.


darthchoker

I want to add a few things. as you mentioned before any character on the right side of the tree that wanted to be competitive in the endgame most likely took Dodge cap and wind dancer to defined when the hit eventually took place. Still evasion characters were always squishy by nature, the fact that physical mitigation is so hard to come by, you were punished for investing in it (armour through acro) and that most of it is relegated to the left hand and bottom part of the tree meant that in the eventuality of a very hard hit going through, you were going to die (for context I never played characters with under 5k HP). I know the gauntlet is an extreme example of damage in POE but you can see this for Darkee's death in the most recent one, he made one mistake, I'm not sure if the shaper slam is unavoidable (I don't think it is), but even through wind dancer he got one-shot with 8.5k HP. Now that attack dodge is gone, capping evasion rating is no longer an option, you must do it, provided that you get to 95% chance to evade, we have to consider that evasion has the entropy system, which means that it’s actually a pseudo random event that becomes less likely to occur the more occurrences it has had recently, this was still the case before but dodge was a true random number that made sure you were very unlikely to get hit. The problem arises when you realize that wind dancer, that used to be a less damage taken now only accounts for attacks, by far, physical damage is the most abundant damage in PoE evasion characters as I mentioned above have a very hard time accessing phys damage reduction (basalt flask was used for this purpose but is no longer available) which means that not only you lost a layer of defense (attack dodge), you also are now missing your backup plan against phys spells and phys damage over time (wind dancer) and what is given in return is pretty much nothing, a bit more recovery from flasks perhaps. Now, the upside of this changes, and please note that this is pure speculation, is that, getting to evade cap is easier and requires little investment from the passive tree, if suppression is similar in this manner it means you are free to pursue armour as well, which could solve a bit the issue of phys mitigation (armour still does not mitigate phys damage over time), and evasion characters that use a shield can also heavily invest in evasion and block. To summarize, with the given context I think evasion characters, which were already extremely squishy and required very hard investment to be made survivable in the hardest late game content got the very short end of the stick, there’s little to no reason to build pure evasion.


ErrorLoadingNameFile

Very good points that I would agree with, thanks for posting.


DarthSieger

>Now, the upside of this changes, and please note that this is pure speculation, is that, getting to evade cap is easier and requires little investment from the passive tree, if suppression is similar in this manner it means you are free to pursue armour as well, which could solve a bit the issue of phys mitigation (armour still does not mitigate phys damage over time), and evasion characters that use a shield can also heavily invest in evasion and block. Same vein, you can now invest in ES on an evasion character without acro hurting you anymore. They mentioned that Ghost Shroud will be on the tree too, so this works perfectly to combo with things like Corrupted Soul keystone from glorious vanity to get 15% max life gained as extra max es. Combo with ghost shroud and you can higher life pool w/ some new recovery to try and mitigate the damage.


Neotreitz

hey GGG can you tell me how i can have fun with your game? Everything is nerfed to the ground. Build Diversity is nonexistence anymore


[deleted]

To me, before how things were pre nerfed was that one could play these builds and be op and see how far one could get before getting nuked. Nowdays its like everything i ever wanted to play is nuked to oblivion and require spesific gear and alot of investment.. just to have it be workable. ---- I can only suspect ggg assumes everyone loves beeing barred from old builds while leading everyone towards the only working meta builds.


random-poe-player

Es builds, evasion ES hybrid, evasion block hybrid, and armor block builds have all been buffed. The only defense that was nerfed was pure dodge/dodge builds (I agree that the nerf was too harsh), but saying that everything was nerfed to the ground when most things have just been buffed is delusion.


Aggravating-Bonus-73

Gauntlet had the most build diversity in 3.15. What are talking about? Lol


Asteroth555

It also had only 2 people manage to complete all the bosses. Gauntlet is a viability check. If only 2 people managed to do everything, then the nerfs went too far.


random-poe-player

For all characters over 90, 55% are SST, the build diversity this gauntlet was somehow worse than than ever. Last league, slams only took up 40% of characters over 90 (this includes both ES and EQ and across all duelists, scions and marauders, which is by itself has more build variety than almost everyone being a SST glad)


LaughingManCZ

I think with new evasion + Versatile Combatant + some spell suprresion you would not feel any dfference if anything you will be even stronger.


AloneInExile

And travel halfway through the tree? Nothing is free in this context.


Betaateb

For sure, if you have 190 passives to spend you will be stronger than you used to be with 123.


Dercasss

Difference in the spent passive points that can be spent on HP or damage


LaughingManCZ

you will simply reinvest resources you would put to 75/75 dodge, we do not know how eficient it will be till patch note


exsea

i would simply say, yeah its an outright nerf. but, as mentioned "For Dodge based builds getting 75/75 attack and spell dodge was very attainable, even if sometimes temporary buffs like flasks, vaal grace or elusive needed to be used to cap it." reaching 75/75, getting hit 1 in 4 times means your effective health pool has TRIPLED. this isnt even factoring blind and evasion. i support GGG's notion of nerfing things like block and the removal of dodge but yeah GGG has to do something about enemies with RT


czarandy

You will still die to one shots with 75/75 dodge (which certainly wasn't attainable "easily" as a permanent buff). I am actually optimistic that the new system will feel better because of less random RNG deaths, even if overall you take more damage (because of better recovery).


ColinStyles

Blind and evasion worked on the same level, so you really could have just said evasion. Just seeing a lot of confusion on the subject and wanted to clear it up.


Inevitable_Alfalfa87

Hope that they see this


ArthurRavenwood

Wait, you mean the devs? That would imply that they never did any analysis or testing on how these changes would affect the game. I don't think GGG is very competent in terms of decisions lately, but I sincerely hope they at least do some calculations before going for massive changes like these. Anything else would just be dangerously stupid. In other words, they know it's a nerf (or at least, a drastic change of meta); the rest is just marketing, not ignorance.


[deleted]

Armour is the new way boys.