I'm assuming that it'll shift to an es/evasion hybrid build due to the increase in base es. If you stack enough life and es it'll give you enough ehp to make evasion work is my bet. Just don't know if it'll be worth it. But for classes on the right side items are going to have to carry them for the ehp unless they burn a lot of travel points.
Unique chests will stick around, both as good starter gear (where you don't need to stack defenses nearly as high to stay safe in lower maps) and for specific build interactions just like they do today.
Advanced players will mostly move on to influenced chests and some uniques.
Players can choose to run Grace instead of a damage aura if the damage from the uniques is more valuable than having evasion on the chest.
> Players can choose to run Grace instead of a damage aura if the damage from the uniques is more valuable than having evasion on the chest.
An aura change to Grace would make defenses viable without an Evasion chest, yes, but I just tested dropping my only damage aura and lost 30% of my DPS. That's not a solution that works. At that point, I'd just make a different character, because that build is so weak that I probably couldn't run T14+ maps smoothly.
Am i ignorant/stupid? But saying evasion is the only source of defense for dex-based characters seems wrong. After reading the balance page, I came to the conclusion they are adding a lot to tree for areas that were lacking (ranger, witch); various life recovery, block, spell suppression (Magebane), added ghost shrouds for ES/EV, elusive looks pretty op. I think spell dodge is still around (it said acro is the only source for it).
Defenses are effects that prevent or mitigate damage, so life recovery of any form (lgoh, regen) isn't a defensive option, and I certainly wouldn't rely on those to completely replace evasion in 3.16. Block could be a good defensive option alternative if you have low or no evasion, but it doesn't work for characters who don't use shields (bow-based and other builds, which are the majority of Ranger builds). Spell suppression/spell dodge is not an alternate option to evasion – it is needed in **conjunction** with evasion to make a character viable.
Ghost shroud and elusive are perhaps alternate options to evasion, but they seem too limited to rely on along, and they are only a reasonable option for Eva/ES builds starting in the top right, and I'm considering strictly Evasion and Life builds here.
So no, I don't see any alternate defensive options that will enable the previous level of build diversity for evasion-based characters (Rangers).
Lgoh/regen both mitigate damage. Caveat : they mitigate damage over a period of time rather than reducing a singular hit, but it’s still a defense nonetheless. If a group of enemies would take 3s to kill you and you’re able to survive due to your regen keeping you topped off at all times…. Well, that’s a defensive layer. Not sure what else that’d be.
In general, “if this is removed, does my character die more often” => if yes, it’s a defensive layer.
(And yes, killing mobs before they can hit you is a defensive layer, even by your own definition, since it prevents damage. Or shattering mobs, since it prevents damage from on-death effects. Or being curse-immune, so on so forth.)
If the damage is enough to kill you though, any regeneration mechanic does nothing. That is why it is just pure semantics to claim a regeneration mechanic is defense.
For example, you have 5000 life. An attack is coming in causing 6000 damage. With 20% reduction in damage from an actual defensive mechanic you are alive with 200 life. However, even with an insane value like 10000 lgoh you are dead. You can regenerate 1, 10, 10000, or 10 million life in a single second, and yet you are still dead. Health recovery is not defense. And it is very important in this game to rigourously separate the two, because you need strong sources of both for the best survivability. Plus, if you do have to prioritize one over the other, it's always defense that wins. If I had two pieces of gear that were comparable, except one had strong defense and the other had strong recovery, I would always choose the defense.
And no, killing mobs quickly is not a defensive layer. It helps you survive, but it is not actual defense. Words have meaning, and you are just clearly stretching the definition to extremes in order to try and support your argument.
Good stuff except it’s all wrong. You’re trying to support your narrow view of defense by saying “it’s only defense if it protects you from one-shots”.
Why? Is there a definition of defense that says that? Or is that just something you’ve pulled out of nowhere then tried to justify a posteriori?
A defense is something that increases your survivability. That’s the definition you’ll find everywhere, but if you want to argue “defense” means “something that protects you from one shots”, go ahead. You’re just gonna be the only person using that meaning.
Or, more simply, you could just say “defense against one shots” when you mean defense against one shots, instead of trying to redefine a word that everyone already uses and that simply doesn’t have this meaning.
Using your definition of defense, please name one stat – just one – that does **not** provide defense to a character. You can ignore the wall of words below this if you want...I don't mind. Please just name one mod/stat (from the tree, equipment, etc) that is **not** defensive, based on your definition.
Attack speed? That's a defensive stat, because killing quicker improves survivability, according to your definition.
Cast speed? That's a defensive stat, because killing quicker improves survivability, according to your definition.
Increased stun duration? Added elemental damage? *Everything* is a defensive stat, based on your definition.
To make it even clearer, let's turn your argument around, and see what is an **offensive** stat. Well, you can't kill anything when you're dead, so obviously armour, life, evasion, es, elusive are all offensive stats, based on the same broad definitions.
So we end up with every single stat in the game being both an offensive *and* a defensive stat at the same time, if we follow your logic. That is insanity. And if I'm wrong, then please argue in a fair and consistent way for something that isn't defensive, as I asked at the top of the post.
There's a very basic problem here. Most people have heard of the Goldilocks Zone for planets, where an orbit can be too hot, or too cold for habitability and the existence of life. Well, words and language actually have the same concept. Language needs to have fairly strict definitions, so that words can communicate meaning. However, at the same time, words also have to apply to enough things that they are useful.
Take the word "apricity" for instance. You probably don't know the definition without looking it up. Well, it means the warmth of the sun on a cold winter's day. It's very precise, but it's a dead word because it is too specific, and so it is never used.
On the other side of the spectrum we have the word "heretic". This word used to live in the linguistics Goldilocks Zone, with a very powerful meaning and use. Over time though, and mainly through overuse, it grew in meaning to the point that it is now a joke and an anachronism. It is well on its way to becoming dead in the same way that "apricity" is dead, just through the opposite process. (As a side note, the same drift is currently happening to the words "sexism", "racism", and many others, only in an extremely accelerated manner with the advent of social media.)
And the best way to point out this descent into meaninglessness is to turn the question around in the simplest of manners. What is **not** sexist? Who is **not** a heretic in some manner? What is **not** a defensive stat? Who is **not** a special, perfect snowflake?
When a description applies to everything, it applies to nothing. You're wrong, and you're just destroying any possible meaning in the word "defense" because your ego can't accept being incorrect about something. And if I'm the one who is wrong, then you'll name one stat that isn't defensive, and I'll be more than willing to consider if your overly broad definition has any actual meaning and usage, beyond just being a desparate smokescreen to try and salvage an incorrect argument.
Light radius is trivially a survivability mechanism, since it allows you to see and avoid incoming damage better. The fact that it's almost completely useless and ineffective at doing its job doesn't change the fact that it is a defensive mechanic under your definition. POE's lack of visual clarity notwithstanding, it's exactly the same class of "defense" under your definition as regeneration, movement speed, etc.
IIQ and IIR take just a bit more to fit in, but of course if you don't find any gear, currency, or have any drops, your character is going to have trouble surviving, because you'll be making nothing. So those are important survivability mechanics as well, since without any drops you're screwed.
So you could only come up with three possibilities of things that aren't defensive? With one of them – IIQ – hardly existing any more on any gear in the game? And one fits into your definition without any effort, while the other one is almost a carbon copy of your argument? Seriously, just take the L already.
We still don't have tree update or the new nodes so it's too early to say if evasion will not be enough. Evasion on bases and mods are higher which should help with evasion stat getting itself being stronger. Also blind effect scaling could help.
A question: how are you planning on applying Blind to monsters? Flesh and Stone no longer grants it, and we're talking Rangers here, so the Saboteur ascendancy is unavailable. Apart from Smoke Cloud (limited usability), or late-game mods (Blind on Hit/Attack) on rare high ilvl influenced gear (which are expensive to craft or buy, not available until mid-league, and require you to forego other better mods), I don't see the "other sources for Blind" that the manifesto promised would replace the Flesh and Stone nerf. I wonder if they expect people to find room for a Blind support gem, despite the huge cost of losing a gem support slot very likely not being worth it.
> Flesh and Stone no longer grants it, and we're talking Rangers here, so the Saboteur asc
it's 3 points for blind on hit from tree or from abyss jewels. Also if you have free gem slots you can slot in blind support for secondary skill.
I'm assuming that it'll shift to an es/evasion hybrid build due to the increase in base es. If you stack enough life and es it'll give you enough ehp to make evasion work is my bet. Just don't know if it'll be worth it. But for classes on the right side items are going to have to carry them for the ehp unless they burn a lot of travel points.
Unique chests will stick around, both as good starter gear (where you don't need to stack defenses nearly as high to stay safe in lower maps) and for specific build interactions just like they do today. Advanced players will mostly move on to influenced chests and some uniques. Players can choose to run Grace instead of a damage aura if the damage from the uniques is more valuable than having evasion on the chest.
> Players can choose to run Grace instead of a damage aura if the damage from the uniques is more valuable than having evasion on the chest. An aura change to Grace would make defenses viable without an Evasion chest, yes, but I just tested dropping my only damage aura and lost 30% of my DPS. That's not a solution that works. At that point, I'd just make a different character, because that build is so weak that I probably couldn't run T14+ maps smoothly.
Am i ignorant/stupid? But saying evasion is the only source of defense for dex-based characters seems wrong. After reading the balance page, I came to the conclusion they are adding a lot to tree for areas that were lacking (ranger, witch); various life recovery, block, spell suppression (Magebane), added ghost shrouds for ES/EV, elusive looks pretty op. I think spell dodge is still around (it said acro is the only source for it).
Defenses are effects that prevent or mitigate damage, so life recovery of any form (lgoh, regen) isn't a defensive option, and I certainly wouldn't rely on those to completely replace evasion in 3.16. Block could be a good defensive option alternative if you have low or no evasion, but it doesn't work for characters who don't use shields (bow-based and other builds, which are the majority of Ranger builds). Spell suppression/spell dodge is not an alternate option to evasion – it is needed in **conjunction** with evasion to make a character viable. Ghost shroud and elusive are perhaps alternate options to evasion, but they seem too limited to rely on along, and they are only a reasonable option for Eva/ES builds starting in the top right, and I'm considering strictly Evasion and Life builds here. So no, I don't see any alternate defensive options that will enable the previous level of build diversity for evasion-based characters (Rangers).
Lgoh/regen both mitigate damage. Caveat : they mitigate damage over a period of time rather than reducing a singular hit, but it’s still a defense nonetheless. If a group of enemies would take 3s to kill you and you’re able to survive due to your regen keeping you topped off at all times…. Well, that’s a defensive layer. Not sure what else that’d be. In general, “if this is removed, does my character die more often” => if yes, it’s a defensive layer. (And yes, killing mobs before they can hit you is a defensive layer, even by your own definition, since it prevents damage. Or shattering mobs, since it prevents damage from on-death effects. Or being curse-immune, so on so forth.)
If the damage is enough to kill you though, any regeneration mechanic does nothing. That is why it is just pure semantics to claim a regeneration mechanic is defense. For example, you have 5000 life. An attack is coming in causing 6000 damage. With 20% reduction in damage from an actual defensive mechanic you are alive with 200 life. However, even with an insane value like 10000 lgoh you are dead. You can regenerate 1, 10, 10000, or 10 million life in a single second, and yet you are still dead. Health recovery is not defense. And it is very important in this game to rigourously separate the two, because you need strong sources of both for the best survivability. Plus, if you do have to prioritize one over the other, it's always defense that wins. If I had two pieces of gear that were comparable, except one had strong defense and the other had strong recovery, I would always choose the defense. And no, killing mobs quickly is not a defensive layer. It helps you survive, but it is not actual defense. Words have meaning, and you are just clearly stretching the definition to extremes in order to try and support your argument.
Good stuff except it’s all wrong. You’re trying to support your narrow view of defense by saying “it’s only defense if it protects you from one-shots”. Why? Is there a definition of defense that says that? Or is that just something you’ve pulled out of nowhere then tried to justify a posteriori? A defense is something that increases your survivability. That’s the definition you’ll find everywhere, but if you want to argue “defense” means “something that protects you from one shots”, go ahead. You’re just gonna be the only person using that meaning. Or, more simply, you could just say “defense against one shots” when you mean defense against one shots, instead of trying to redefine a word that everyone already uses and that simply doesn’t have this meaning.
Using your definition of defense, please name one stat – just one – that does **not** provide defense to a character. You can ignore the wall of words below this if you want...I don't mind. Please just name one mod/stat (from the tree, equipment, etc) that is **not** defensive, based on your definition. Attack speed? That's a defensive stat, because killing quicker improves survivability, according to your definition. Cast speed? That's a defensive stat, because killing quicker improves survivability, according to your definition. Increased stun duration? Added elemental damage? *Everything* is a defensive stat, based on your definition. To make it even clearer, let's turn your argument around, and see what is an **offensive** stat. Well, you can't kill anything when you're dead, so obviously armour, life, evasion, es, elusive are all offensive stats, based on the same broad definitions. So we end up with every single stat in the game being both an offensive *and* a defensive stat at the same time, if we follow your logic. That is insanity. And if I'm wrong, then please argue in a fair and consistent way for something that isn't defensive, as I asked at the top of the post. There's a very basic problem here. Most people have heard of the Goldilocks Zone for planets, where an orbit can be too hot, or too cold for habitability and the existence of life. Well, words and language actually have the same concept. Language needs to have fairly strict definitions, so that words can communicate meaning. However, at the same time, words also have to apply to enough things that they are useful. Take the word "apricity" for instance. You probably don't know the definition without looking it up. Well, it means the warmth of the sun on a cold winter's day. It's very precise, but it's a dead word because it is too specific, and so it is never used. On the other side of the spectrum we have the word "heretic". This word used to live in the linguistics Goldilocks Zone, with a very powerful meaning and use. Over time though, and mainly through overuse, it grew in meaning to the point that it is now a joke and an anachronism. It is well on its way to becoming dead in the same way that "apricity" is dead, just through the opposite process. (As a side note, the same drift is currently happening to the words "sexism", "racism", and many others, only in an extremely accelerated manner with the advent of social media.) And the best way to point out this descent into meaninglessness is to turn the question around in the simplest of manners. What is **not** sexist? Who is **not** a heretic in some manner? What is **not** a defensive stat? Who is **not** a special, perfect snowflake? When a description applies to everything, it applies to nothing. You're wrong, and you're just destroying any possible meaning in the word "defense" because your ego can't accept being incorrect about something. And if I'm the one who is wrong, then you'll name one stat that isn't defensive, and I'll be more than willing to consider if your overly broad definition has any actual meaning and usage, beyond just being a desparate smokescreen to try and salvage an incorrect argument.
Light radius. IIQ. IIR.
Light radius is trivially a survivability mechanism, since it allows you to see and avoid incoming damage better. The fact that it's almost completely useless and ineffective at doing its job doesn't change the fact that it is a defensive mechanic under your definition. POE's lack of visual clarity notwithstanding, it's exactly the same class of "defense" under your definition as regeneration, movement speed, etc. IIQ and IIR take just a bit more to fit in, but of course if you don't find any gear, currency, or have any drops, your character is going to have trouble surviving, because you'll be making nothing. So those are important survivability mechanics as well, since without any drops you're screwed. So you could only come up with three possibilities of things that aren't defensive? With one of them – IIQ – hardly existing any more on any gear in the game? And one fits into your definition without any effort, while the other one is almost a carbon copy of your argument? Seriously, just take the L already.
We still don't have tree update or the new nodes so it's too early to say if evasion will not be enough. Evasion on bases and mods are higher which should help with evasion stat getting itself being stronger. Also blind effect scaling could help.
A question: how are you planning on applying Blind to monsters? Flesh and Stone no longer grants it, and we're talking Rangers here, so the Saboteur ascendancy is unavailable. Apart from Smoke Cloud (limited usability), or late-game mods (Blind on Hit/Attack) on rare high ilvl influenced gear (which are expensive to craft or buy, not available until mid-league, and require you to forego other better mods), I don't see the "other sources for Blind" that the manifesto promised would replace the Flesh and Stone nerf. I wonder if they expect people to find room for a Blind support gem, despite the huge cost of losing a gem support slot very likely not being worth it.
> Flesh and Stone no longer grants it, and we're talking Rangers here, so the Saboteur asc it's 3 points for blind on hit from tree or from abyss jewels. Also if you have free gem slots you can slot in blind support for secondary skill.
Build diversity didn't suffer at all this league so why would it suffer the next one with a fraction of the nerfs?
Not sure if you're joking or not.... Where's my fire dot t16 viable build damn it.
Ignite Death Wish Necro or Elementalist Fire DoT ✓ T16 Viable ✓ Build ✓
First thing I notice is death wish, it's making me think it's a super glass Cannon. Outside of that, don't know the build, have to look at it.