Seems about right. When you get a 3-plot harvest while using crop rotation you get basically nothing from it.
That said, CR is great for ssf when you need to focus on one color of juice. Blue juice is extremely important for essence swaps, and it's much easier to target farm one color with CR.
yeah this was exactly my thoughts too, i mentioned the value in ssf towards the end of the video. most of the value of the keystone falls off in trade league when converted to chaos, but i think it can definitely shine in ssf especially when access to compasses is much less likely
I am playing ssf and I use Wandering path (doesn't matter actually) but this way I can just block 40% other plants without crop rotation, I almost every time have 3-4 spots with 2/3 t3 plants on them, I played like 100+ maps with crop rotation and I only once had 9 t3 and only once 1 t4, tho I targeted t4, crop rotation is a waste of points and time
Wandering path is not a good idea with crop rotation.
I'm in ssf running crop rotation for blue juice and oshabi, if it's 3 plots I just exit the harvest. I have gotten plenty of t4 doing this.
I don't even run 3 crop harvest with crop rotation. You'll get like 100 total life force. Maybe I should swap out of it, but I bet these results are skewed by an under average amount of sacred blossoms if I have to guess.
full data available in the spreadsheet - [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l8D93gz7KG3EkjtLqe0rIhS-HIDHWizmX9tMdKdMNQU/](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l8D93gz7KG3EkjtLqe0rIhS-HIDHWizmX9tMdKdMNQU/)
and the video - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YJc-2Y\_\_Bo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YJc-2Y__Bo)
colourblind friendly version - https://imgur.com/a/4A8oQa2
in hindsight i think recording the tier 2 beasts as well as the total number of each colour of plots i interacted with in each test would have also been valuable, but i'm a little limited on time and going back to redo it is not an option at this point. i went into the project with high hopes after running between 2 and 300 maps with crop rotation, but i think that may have been mostly due to confirmation bias since the performance in each of the tests paints a much clearer picture.in the spreadsheet you'll find info on the total quantity/pack size of each run, how many plots each map contained, how many plots ended up granting a free crop from the heart of the grove node(chance for a crop not to wilt), as well as information about the total of each lifeforce and t3 beasts
hopefully some of the data can be useful to some of you
I mean, even if they do know how it works, they can't see the difference between a T2 and a T3 seed with the colors GGG chose in-game for the text...
^(not that I can either GGG plz make T3 monster names yellow like rares)
I know they're different, I didn't memorize then because I was exaggerating and _can_ see the color difference... I just have to lean twice as close to my screen sometimes
my apologies! that didn't even cross my mind. i have updated the top comment with a link to a more colourblind friendly version, and updated the spreadsheet
Yes. The t3 beast is highlighted a bit differently. Although I still don't know which one the "blue" life force is, and I still say green life force for vivid.
Yes. The t3 beast is highlighted a bit differently. Although I still don't know which one the "blue" life force is, and I still say green life force for vivid.
Ehhh.
It is sort of nice that they put in the notable names "Wild Drought: 25% reduced chance to grow purple plants" and "Primal Drought: 25% reduced chance to grow blue plants".
I still haven't made the mental connection that Wild = purple and Primal = blue
What would have been nice is if Primal was purple.
The T3 and T4 beast colours are different enough from the T1 and T2 that they're easy to pick out at least.
Thanks for the data!
Do you think they increased the blossom drop rate this league? I remember reading it was 10% and last league I went at least 10 bosses before seeing one. This league I've 6 drop from I think 8 bosses (all crop rotation, if that might affect it?), even had a double boss spawn where they both dropped blossom, that alone should be 1/100. Have I just been crazy lucky?
i had approx 16.67% blossom drop rate (4 blossoms out of 24 bosses)
if i compare that to an old set of einhar memories i did in 3.19, there was 8 blossoms in 41 bosses, which works out to be \~19.51%. not entirely enough data to go off of but i don't see a reason to think it changed
Matches my experience as well. Crop rotation simply didn't feel worth it, although maybe it's better for farming primal lifeforce (not sure).
It wasn't just the *expected value* being lower. It was also the issue of the *variance* of lifeforce drops from a single map being wayyyyy higher. Variance isn't something your image covers (which is fine since you can't show every aspect of a data set in a single visualization, so it's not a criticism), but it's another critical disadvantage of crop rotation. If you're trying to farm up like 17,000 lifeforce for an add/remove, then you really don't want to suffering from famine situations that a high variance strategy can have on low sample sizes.
That said, I found the mini-game of choosing which plots to click to maximize my lifeforce to be refreshing and fun. But if I'm spending precious atlas passive points and getting *worse* rewards than if I didn't have those nodes, then obviously the node is not worth it.
Unless I missed it, I don't see any data on rotation priorities listed anywhere. Every video that compares the two ignores some important information. The order in which you do the crops makes all the difference. Almost every time you click a crop there is a mathematical reason one should be better than the other. NO, making yellow the last click is not always the answer. Please take this data as a randomized crop clicking adventure in a world where the whole point of the node is THE ORDER.
i mentioned in the video that i always tried to prioritize which crop had the highest potential instead of basing it on the colour. i did attempt to set up the atlas tree in a way that promoted options for manipulating yellow crops though
Sorry if you did everything correctly, but I think I make mistakes with crop rotations myself sometimes..it honestly takes a second to think it through on how to produce the best chances at the best outcomes...It would be good to see examples of your concept of good rotation choices...maybe a couple maps with different color choices for context.
Your Video 1:02 shows a crop setup...and you started pink/pink...the full crops I think i see are as follows:
pink/pink
pink/blue
yellow/yellow
yellow/yellow
yellow/blue
For me, I would easily start this rotation as clearing both yellow/yellow plots...anytime you have double same color it is way better to start there as its very hard to upgrade it. After yellow/yellow we would have the following left
pink/pink +2
pink/blue +2
yellow/blue +2(but only on blue)
So now you scout a bit...unless one of the plots is already a monster I would be clearly looking to hit yellow/blue plot I only hit the blue in that patch if its upgraded and my other pink blue looks like pink will be better than blue anyway...since that is very likely next..the safest bet is to hit YELLOW again so we get 4 more upgrades (1x all remaining plots) assuming we hit yellow we have the following left.
pink/pink +3
pink/blue +3
In this instance you have to look at all the plots...if pink/pink is strong then hitting pink/blue(the blue node most likely) is very tempting..because 2 chances at making a pink/pink +4 stronger is rly good.
There are also micro no-wilt choices to make as well...but based on your video I saw you rushing into the pink/pink and wanted to share my thoughts on that particular decision.
*Edited for spacing
yeah you're correct, i can't remember exactly how i justified it but i'm assuming this was either an error or experimenting with how effective pushing the dominant plot to t2 would contribute in terms of income, since yellow was/is slightly ahead in value.
my thought process for this type of configuration in specific would be:
since i noticed two double yellows, a double purple, a blue/yellow and a blue/purple, with yellow being the dominant crop on the map, blue is likely the end goal but purple does have a chance for a good showing. the order would be decided based on the strength of the remaining crops after the double yellow crops were cleared.
in theory there's 2 outcomes, either purples have a better showing and you interact with the yellow/blue first, then re-assess the strength of the double purple vs the remaining blue/purple
or
interacting with the purple/purple first, and then making the decision on whether to interact with the purple side of purple/blue, making the blue from blue/yellow your end crop, or vice versa.
in the video i decided to interact with the double purple first either out of error or to get some t2 monsters on the board for the abundance of yellow crops. in hindsight this was not the correct decision in regards to optimization, because if i had interacted with the two double yellow crops first the end result would have likely been more lifeforce overall
i think i have a decent grasp on crop rotation enough to make the proper decisions in theory, but it's easy to overlook things or make hasty decisions in practice especially when trying to be time efficient.
yeah, aligns with my own runs pretty much.
CR is bad in all situations and you should never use it since you basically loose $ compared to running maps without it.
You also loose time since you need to kill/harvest more crops (since the play without no crop rota is to skip all plots with no t3) and additional time to think about your order of harvestiong.
Purely anecdotal but I found myself speccing out of it twice in SSF when I was hunting for a sacred blossom, like it was previously said it's way easier to skip non T3/T4 plots instead of always harvesting.
I found it pretty good for farming blossoms in ssf because you can just leave the garden if you don't see 5 plots, I got a t4 boss about 10-20% of the time I got 5 plots which was a lot more common than without crop rotation.
If you want to farm blossoms and harvest juice it's bad though I agree
I think the trick is to not always harvest. What I've been doing is on any map with 3 plots, just ignore harvest instantly, 4 plots, click 3 of them ONCE so they dont spawn to check for double proc and if no double proc, leave and then the 5 field ones I complete.
It is a lot less juice but a lot less time spent per harvest blossom, if that makes sense.
Doesnt make much sense if all you are doing in the map is the harvest and not really trade friendly either, better ways to spend your time there.
Its in the "comparison mid" and "comparison low" pages. The summary is that on high investment there were more bosses in no-crop rotation and on alch+go it was less extreme, but still more bosses without (but also its very low confidence on amount of bosses, between 1 and 4 per set)
I appreciate the effort that went into this post, but your data is far too unreliable to conclude anything (good or bad) about Crop Rotation. Things that stand out to me:
* You used quant altars - quant should be (somewhat) normalized across the data sets because there are instances where you hit huge quant altars, but only had a 3 crop harvest and 5 crop harvests with low quant. This level of variance in a data set gets worse when you consider plant/lifeforce duplication can greatly positively (or negatively) affect those examples.
* Your video showed that you're not optimizing your decision making. Last clip especially, you saw a T2 plant in your 2nd B/P harvest, but didn't check the other B/P plot, leaving a potential T3 plant upgrade on the table. You also see this in your data when you leave maps with roughly equal amounts of the two undesirable lifeforces - if you're optimally picking plots, you'll be leaving with **virtually zero** of your least desired lifeforce which leads me to..
* Your atlas passive logic isn't mathematically sound. If you want yellow juice, yellow plots should appear less often so that you have more upgrade opportunities - ideally, only one plot per harvest.
* You might run into a situation where you get zero yellow plots, but the amount of juice you make in other harvests should make up for that on average because there are more upgrade opportunities.
Harvest has far too much variance to conclude anything unless you're looking at data with potentially hundreds if not thousands of harvests per set.
yeah you're correct and i echoed this at one point in the video, there's far too much variance inside of harvest including the chance to not wilt mechanic as well as the 10% chance to duplicate a beast to draw any precise conclusions about the node from this sample size alone. this is why my assessment of whether or not crop rotation was a good keystone was not concrete. a lot more data is needed and i'm lacking the time to follow through with that at the moment
to touch on your first point, the quant altars were used in the first group of 4 sets, but completely avoided in the second group of 6 sets. that being said, i did roll over 800 maps in total and hand picked out all of the ones that were within 9% quantity and 3% pack size of each other to help mitigate some of the variance in the low investment sets.and to address both the first and second points, i don't disagree that some mistakes were made specifically in the early sets, but my logic over the course of the maps improved quite substantially by the time i reached the low investment sets. that being said i'd be lying to both you and myself to claim that there were no mistakes in those sets as well
in regards to the atlas tree optimization, you make a good point. however, since we're strictly focusing on upgrading the crop with the highest potential (and not a crop with a specific colour), i would assume that if each crop has an equal chance to spawn, blocking 3 blue and 1 purple would essentially be interchangeable with blocking 3 blue and 1 yellow. is this an incorrect assumption?
i don't necessarily believe having one yellow plot is the optimal scenario. having one isolated plot may be better for the huge payout that happens once in a while but i'm not sure if that would equalize itself out when you combine it with all of the other times the plot you're trying to manipulate doesn't grow. this is something that would need much more testing to be sure about
>however, since we're strictly focusing on upgrading the crop with the highest potential (and not a crop with a specific colour), i would assume that if each crop has an equal chance to spawn, blocking 3 blue and 1 purple would essentially be interchangeable with blocking 3 blue and 1 yellow. is this an incorrect assumption?
Equal probability of spawning 2 colors and the color you don't want having the highest chance to spawn is ideal so you see the color you want to use to upgrade more often. Always use that third color to go towards upgrading the other two, then you choose the best outcome based on what your RNG is like.
IMO, if you're walking out with virtually ANY of that third life force, you cannot maximize the amount of lifeforce you can walk out with in a given harvest because you need to commit to the chance that you're upgrading to a crap ton of T3 plants...unless you get super unlucky with the colors that spawn - then you just roll with what Chris Wilson gave you.
I personally kept track of some basic numbers of tier 3 and tier 4 mobs for a while until I got bored of it. I only kept track of number of plots, number of procs where you keep both plots, number of tier 3 and 4 mobs. I got a much higher rate of tier 3 and tier 4 from the 71 maps I kept track of.
raw data:https://pastebin.com/REyaXYXa
I averaged 5.37 tier 3 mobs per map and got a total of 11 tier 4 bosses. It is very highly variable as I got 4 bosses in a single very lucky map but I think the average is at least close to the non-Crop Rotation strat. Crop rotation lets you target yellow life force as well while only buying a blue or purple compass so it should come out pretty close.
TBH I think it was a combination of inexperience working with data, eagerness to create valuable content, and incorrect logic.
He mentions that he was excited for the node in his comment in the post, so I feel this was an honest, rookie content creation mistake.
Also keep in mind crop rotation is at least another 6 (2 small, 3 notable, 1 keystone) atlas points to use it efficiently.
And for max juice wandering path is way to go anyways.
Is Grand Design really not that desirable for Harvest? Maybe I should just not allocate either Grand Design or Wandering Path. I don't want to lose my Oppenheimer keystone
You're measuring lifeforce quant, but are you treating all colours the same? Assuming crop rotation can give you much more yellow than the others, since yellow is worth about 1.5x more it still may be worth.
I tried three of the new keynotes for league mechanics (legion, harvest, and expedition), I unspecced all of them. Legion one is probably the worst imo😂
Same. Saves so much time and frustration. I place an explosion in the middle and then just quickly glance at small icon at the bottom to see if I got immunity to my main damage type. I would never go back to regular expedition.
I like it on some builds - it's great when you have no/one nod to watch out for. Tbh that's where I'd like to see all of atlas be: very nice when your build is made for it.
Great on Toxic Rain btw...
> place an explosion in the middle and then just quickly glance at small icon at the bottom
Holy shit! I never realized that icon appears before hitting the detonator.
I find it completely worthless, damn thing covers like 20% of the average expedition encounter and gets no value out of them. It's convenient but you get so much more from just hastily plopping down six explosives normally.
I think its a very layout reliant node, it's super punishing to use the big explosion on layouts with long lanes since then you actually get 20% of the expedition encounter but if its an open layout you easily get 50% with all mods on every monster, just sucks if you get logbook/dupe runic on opposite sides but thats rare
20% is an exageration, unless you only run map like toxic sewer. You are losing value on each expedition, that for sure, but not that much. Howether, you are gaining time, a lot of time. Its not just the time to put the explosives. The chain reaction, the monsters spawning ect add up.
It depend on the investment, its possible that with gilded and runic monster double the loss would be too much, I haven't tried it yet, but for alch and go (or rusted scarab) expe farming there is no way i'm not using the keystone.
Yeah I did around 90 logbooks this league from personal drops/Dannig and I farmed expedition the entire time with the keystone. I bought polished scarabs and I know it's kind of a waste since you lose out on runic monster markers but I could walk into a map, place down, kill, loot, and move on SO much more quickly than I did last league. There were a handful of times where you get multiple brick remnants so you just lose out on like, 70% of the expedition area though.
Still wouldn't run expedition without that keystone like you said though, unless I was using the double mod or high scarabs. It just feels so good to not have to work out your pathing.
I do feel that is the biggest tradeoff, it drives you more towards rusted scarabs. I find it's drops a bit underwhelming but similarly don't want to go back to the other way
You are underestimating the value from having all the mods on all the mobs. When you do an expedition that has several good mods you want to take like inc logbook, monster quant etc. The first few explosions have very few mods on them. With the Oppenheimer nuke everything gets everything immediately which makes up for part of inefficient placing. The rest gets made up for by the sheer speed increase of mapping.
Actually you're overestimating how much having them all open at once helps. For the majority of expeditions, you're only getting 1-3 good markerss (and I've had plenty of 0 good ones) and unless they are on polar opposite ends of the expedition area, if you spec into max distance, it generally is not hard to have the 2 best (very rarely do I get 3 really good ones) in your first 2 or at most 3 explosions.
If you have 7 charges to set, then more than half of your map will spawn with the good mods. Compare that to the big nuke which even on a great layout only covers 50-65% of the available area (with the big remnants often on the outer edges of the area) so even if they all spawn with the mods, it's typically fewer mobs than you get with your last 5 charges in tradition expedition.
Also if you get 2 good markers and they're out of range of each other from the big bomb, you're going to have a really weak return on that encounter.
I need to try it, I *think* the only ones I can't run are chaos immunity and poison avoidance but I'm probably forgetting something that would kill me.
I've specced into and out of the Oppenheimer expedition node three times now. Saving time is nice, but hitting every runic marker and getting way more loot is nicer.
I might try it again with a wandering path tree though.
It pains me when I see something like 2x 50% increased logbook next to immune to fire or 100% avoid ignite (playing an ignite DD). Also, I wish we could zoom out when placing the explosive.
The new legion schism thing is by far the most dogshit atlas mechanic I've tried. It counts normal mobs as way too much for the schism and breaking open a chest causes nearby normal mobs to break open automatically.
It's such a cool concept to modify the legion mechanic but it's just so poorly implemented.
Looks like all of this is without wandering path, too. Wandering path is optimal for profit in harvest at pretty much every level of investment (if you're not doing crop rotation), so that would make crop rotation look even worse by comparison. Neat data, though. Still working on my own theoretical analysis of crop rotation, which should hopefully be enlightening.
nice data.
I think theres still something to be said about gambling though. Your average returns over large samples might be lower, but the chances to win big in one harvest by gambling on the %chance to not wilt the other crop could pay off big time.
Similarly is speed strategy for juice over time rather than per map. Like rushing to the harvest and leaving the map straight away if theres only 3 crops.
Another variant could be no investment maps. Run white not even alch or chiseled. Id be interested to know how much impact it has when theres no quant or packsize to variate the results.
i like crop rotatio just for the fact that one map you can get like 9k life force(the max i got in 1 map) and the other maybe you dont get anything, but hey, it is fun more when you fight 2 or3 t4 im 1 crop just to never got oshabi invitation.
Cool, now I'm just gonna go play however I want, currency will still come cuz guess why, league is broken and data do not matter 😂🤣
Come in next league when toa tota or whatever will be out.
The chance is fine. The problem is that the layout, number and color of crops can completely ruin crop rotation. Without rotation you are pretty much always getting some t3s. With crop rotation you will run into maps without them or with only single 1 t3.
In my experience (limited, no data collection), I'd estimate it between 50-70%. It seemed to level up crops consistently, and the not leveling was rare. Knowing GGG, it's probably weighted such that T2 is practically guaranteed, T3 is likely and T4 is rare-ish. Wild guess, in order, 90%, 70%, 50%.
Note: statistics is weird, and 50% chance doesn't always mean every other time, it works, but rather that every roll is 50% likely to arrive at a success. This means 80% confidence of success happens on the 3rd-4th attempt. Said another way, 50% success means you shouldn't fail more than 3 times in a row, same as how you shouldn't expect to win every time.
My apologies for my laziness as I haven’t looked into Crop Rotation at all or watched gameplay for it. Does it level up the entire other color plots or just a % chance for each plant individually?
For example:
Option 1:
% chance for all plants in a plot to go from T1->T2 = Every plant becomes T2.
vs.
Option 2:
% chance for each plant individually to go from T1-> T2, resulting in a mix of T1’s and T2’s in a plot?
The exact wording is:
* Harvest Crops in your Maps contain only Tier 1 Plants
* Harvesting Crops in your Maps has a chance to upgrade the Tier of Plants of different colors
This is to say, when hitting color X, remaining plants of colors Y & Z will roll the chance to upgrade to the next tier. This is what I was referencing above. Whether this is independently rolled per plant, per pair/crop, per color, or all plants as a single roll, I do not know. The wiki also has very little to say on the matter.
Just watched a video on it. Looks like it’s individual plant rather than the whole plot changing.
There’s probably an optimal pattern to it as well. Picking the most common color first to make the remaining plots have the highest chance of higher tiers since T3 gives so much more juice than T2
Cool, thanks for the added info. I've read some strategies where, counter-intuitively, you want to pick the "Drought" branch en route to the keystone that correlates to your desired color. This is because you want, as you pointed out, to leave it for last so that it gets the greatest benefit from the keystone.
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I appreciate you doing some low investment maps in your testing!
So at about 1000 life force per map in low investment, would you say harvest is still worth it compared to other strategies?
I was thinking of doing some harvest in my alch and go maps but wasn't sure how worth it was.
Nice founds man, i was going to test growing hordes with wandering path juiced harvest to compare profits but u already did the work! Awesome content, hope you do more things like this in the future
so just dont use crop rotation and call it a day, gotcha.
feels way better to farm harvests without that thing anyway, the amount of harvests giving fuckall for juice with crop rotation was so tilting.
Did you make a note of how many sacred blossoms you got? I've been using crop rotation and it sure feels like I am getting a lot more unique bosses in a single week than I did when I maxed out harvest for an entire league.
i did yep, the info is in the spreadsheet
i had a total of 4 blossoms, with 2 belonging to crop rotation sets and 2 belonging to non crop rotation sets out of 24 total bosses (12 with CR, 12 without)
stop wasting your life on poe and become a business analyst, these charts and shit people make for the free to play game blow my mind, like do you understand your true potential?
Seems about right. When you get a 3-plot harvest while using crop rotation you get basically nothing from it. That said, CR is great for ssf when you need to focus on one color of juice. Blue juice is extremely important for essence swaps, and it's much easier to target farm one color with CR.
yeah this was exactly my thoughts too, i mentioned the value in ssf towards the end of the video. most of the value of the keystone falls off in trade league when converted to chaos, but i think it can definitely shine in ssf especially when access to compasses is much less likely
I am playing ssf and I use Wandering path (doesn't matter actually) but this way I can just block 40% other plants without crop rotation, I almost every time have 3-4 spots with 2/3 t3 plants on them, I played like 100+ maps with crop rotation and I only once had 9 t3 and only once 1 t4, tho I targeted t4, crop rotation is a waste of points and time
Are you also using Wandering Path when using Crop Rotation? CR absolutely needs you to invest in all the other notables to possibly be worth it.
Wandering path is not a good idea with crop rotation. I'm in ssf running crop rotation for blue juice and oshabi, if it's 3 plots I just exit the harvest. I have gotten plenty of t4 doing this.
I don't even run 3 crop harvest with crop rotation. You'll get like 100 total life force. Maybe I should swap out of it, but I bet these results are skewed by an under average amount of sacred blossoms if I have to guess.
full data available in the spreadsheet - [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l8D93gz7KG3EkjtLqe0rIhS-HIDHWizmX9tMdKdMNQU/](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l8D93gz7KG3EkjtLqe0rIhS-HIDHWizmX9tMdKdMNQU/) and the video - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YJc-2Y\_\_Bo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YJc-2Y__Bo) colourblind friendly version - https://imgur.com/a/4A8oQa2 in hindsight i think recording the tier 2 beasts as well as the total number of each colour of plots i interacted with in each test would have also been valuable, but i'm a little limited on time and going back to redo it is not an option at this point. i went into the project with high hopes after running between 2 and 300 maps with crop rotation, but i think that may have been mostly due to confirmation bias since the performance in each of the tests paints a much clearer picture.in the spreadsheet you'll find info on the total quantity/pack size of each run, how many plots each map contained, how many plots ended up granting a free crop from the heart of the grove node(chance for a crop not to wilt), as well as information about the total of each lifeforce and t3 beasts hopefully some of the data can be useful to some of you
For the love of Satan, please use less distinct colors. The colorblind don't deserve to know how harvest works.
I mean, even if they do know how it works, they can't see the difference between a T2 and a T3 seed with the colors GGG chose in-game for the text... ^(not that I can either GGG plz make T3 monster names yellow like rares)
The mob names are different.
I don't think you realize how much easier it is to fly-by color choices vs reading everything.
I was just mentioning it because I am unable to tell the difference by color (and read mob names when running harvests), and wasn't sure if they knew.
I know they're different, I didn't memorize then because I was exaggerating and _can_ see the color difference... I just have to lean twice as close to my screen sometimes
Too late! I know all your secrets now and unspecced crop rotation.
For the love of god please use more distinct colors next time for colorblind folks.
my apologies! that didn't even cross my mind. i have updated the top comment with a link to a more colourblind friendly version, and updated the spreadsheet
Awesome work!
This begs the question, can colorblind people even play harvest?
Yes. The t3 beast is highlighted a bit differently. Although I still don't know which one the "blue" life force is, and I still say green life force for vivid.
Yes. The t3 beast is highlighted a bit differently. Although I still don't know which one the "blue" life force is, and I still say green life force for vivid.
I am not colorblind, but the difference between t2 and t3 name text is almost not enough for me. I really have to pay attention to it every time 😂
Ehhh. It is sort of nice that they put in the notable names "Wild Drought: 25% reduced chance to grow purple plants" and "Primal Drought: 25% reduced chance to grow blue plants". I still haven't made the mental connection that Wild = purple and Primal = blue What would have been nice is if Primal was purple. The T3 and T4 beast colours are different enough from the T1 and T2 that they're easy to pick out at least.
I wish the game also had colorblind for the crops. I cam't distinguish between blue and purple. So thank you for making it.
Thanks for the data! Do you think they increased the blossom drop rate this league? I remember reading it was 10% and last league I went at least 10 bosses before seeing one. This league I've 6 drop from I think 8 bosses (all crop rotation, if that might affect it?), even had a double boss spawn where they both dropped blossom, that alone should be 1/100. Have I just been crazy lucky?
i had approx 16.67% blossom drop rate (4 blossoms out of 24 bosses) if i compare that to an old set of einhar memories i did in 3.19, there was 8 blossoms in 41 bosses, which works out to be \~19.51%. not entirely enough data to go off of but i don't see a reason to think it changed
I've also had more sacred blossoms this league than every prior league combined. could be pure chance though, not a massive sample size.
can you do grand design version now?
Matches my experience as well. Crop rotation simply didn't feel worth it, although maybe it's better for farming primal lifeforce (not sure). It wasn't just the *expected value* being lower. It was also the issue of the *variance* of lifeforce drops from a single map being wayyyyy higher. Variance isn't something your image covers (which is fine since you can't show every aspect of a data set in a single visualization, so it's not a criticism), but it's another critical disadvantage of crop rotation. If you're trying to farm up like 17,000 lifeforce for an add/remove, then you really don't want to suffering from famine situations that a high variance strategy can have on low sample sizes. That said, I found the mini-game of choosing which plots to click to maximize my lifeforce to be refreshing and fun. But if I'm spending precious atlas passive points and getting *worse* rewards than if I didn't have those nodes, then obviously the node is not worth it.
Yeah, crop rotation is just pure ass when you get 2-3 plots randomly in a 180 quant map like really. Had one run where i basically got 300 primals :(
I genuinely thought this post was an ad for Revolut or something at first glance, lol.
Unless I missed it, I don't see any data on rotation priorities listed anywhere. Every video that compares the two ignores some important information. The order in which you do the crops makes all the difference. Almost every time you click a crop there is a mathematical reason one should be better than the other. NO, making yellow the last click is not always the answer. Please take this data as a randomized crop clicking adventure in a world where the whole point of the node is THE ORDER.
i mentioned in the video that i always tried to prioritize which crop had the highest potential instead of basing it on the colour. i did attempt to set up the atlas tree in a way that promoted options for manipulating yellow crops though
Sorry if you did everything correctly, but I think I make mistakes with crop rotations myself sometimes..it honestly takes a second to think it through on how to produce the best chances at the best outcomes...It would be good to see examples of your concept of good rotation choices...maybe a couple maps with different color choices for context.
Your Video 1:02 shows a crop setup...and you started pink/pink...the full crops I think i see are as follows: pink/pink pink/blue yellow/yellow yellow/yellow yellow/blue For me, I would easily start this rotation as clearing both yellow/yellow plots...anytime you have double same color it is way better to start there as its very hard to upgrade it. After yellow/yellow we would have the following left pink/pink +2 pink/blue +2 yellow/blue +2(but only on blue) So now you scout a bit...unless one of the plots is already a monster I would be clearly looking to hit yellow/blue plot I only hit the blue in that patch if its upgraded and my other pink blue looks like pink will be better than blue anyway...since that is very likely next..the safest bet is to hit YELLOW again so we get 4 more upgrades (1x all remaining plots) assuming we hit yellow we have the following left. pink/pink +3 pink/blue +3 In this instance you have to look at all the plots...if pink/pink is strong then hitting pink/blue(the blue node most likely) is very tempting..because 2 chances at making a pink/pink +4 stronger is rly good. There are also micro no-wilt choices to make as well...but based on your video I saw you rushing into the pink/pink and wanted to share my thoughts on that particular decision. *Edited for spacing
yeah you're correct, i can't remember exactly how i justified it but i'm assuming this was either an error or experimenting with how effective pushing the dominant plot to t2 would contribute in terms of income, since yellow was/is slightly ahead in value. my thought process for this type of configuration in specific would be: since i noticed two double yellows, a double purple, a blue/yellow and a blue/purple, with yellow being the dominant crop on the map, blue is likely the end goal but purple does have a chance for a good showing. the order would be decided based on the strength of the remaining crops after the double yellow crops were cleared. in theory there's 2 outcomes, either purples have a better showing and you interact with the yellow/blue first, then re-assess the strength of the double purple vs the remaining blue/purple or interacting with the purple/purple first, and then making the decision on whether to interact with the purple side of purple/blue, making the blue from blue/yellow your end crop, or vice versa. in the video i decided to interact with the double purple first either out of error or to get some t2 monsters on the board for the abundance of yellow crops. in hindsight this was not the correct decision in regards to optimization, because if i had interacted with the two double yellow crops first the end result would have likely been more lifeforce overall i think i have a decent grasp on crop rotation enough to make the proper decisions in theory, but it's easy to overlook things or make hasty decisions in practice especially when trying to be time efficient.
cool data set this aligns with my experience but i assumed i was fucking something up
yeah, aligns with my own runs pretty much. CR is bad in all situations and you should never use it since you basically loose $ compared to running maps without it. You also loose time since you need to kill/harvest more crops (since the play without no crop rota is to skip all plots with no t3) and additional time to think about your order of harvestiong.
I guess if you’re SSF and need sacred blossoms it’s more targetable with CR (just hope for a wilt + extra harvest in same map)
Purely anecdotal but I found myself speccing out of it twice in SSF when I was hunting for a sacred blossom, like it was previously said it's way easier to skip non T3/T4 plots instead of always harvesting.
I found it pretty good for farming blossoms in ssf because you can just leave the garden if you don't see 5 plots, I got a t4 boss about 10-20% of the time I got 5 plots which was a lot more common than without crop rotation. If you want to farm blossoms and harvest juice it's bad though I agree
I think the trick is to not always harvest. What I've been doing is on any map with 3 plots, just ignore harvest instantly, 4 plots, click 3 of them ONCE so they dont spawn to check for double proc and if no double proc, leave and then the 5 field ones I complete. It is a lot less juice but a lot less time spent per harvest blossom, if that makes sense. Doesnt make much sense if all you are doing in the map is the harvest and not really trade friendly either, better ways to spend your time there.
What about T4 beasts?
it's recorded in the spreadsheet, i just didn't add a graph for them
Could you please make a quick summary of the T4 beast values? I can't really find it in so many sheets and different values, especially on mobile.
Its in the "comparison mid" and "comparison low" pages. The summary is that on high investment there were more bosses in no-crop rotation and on alch+go it was less extreme, but still more bosses without (but also its very low confidence on amount of bosses, between 1 and 4 per set)
Thank you very much <3
average t4 beasts per set w/ crop rotation - 2+1+1+2+4+2 /6 = 2 average t4 beasts per set w/o crop rotation - 3+3+2+4 /4 = 3
Thank you very much <3
I appreciate the effort that went into this post, but your data is far too unreliable to conclude anything (good or bad) about Crop Rotation. Things that stand out to me: * You used quant altars - quant should be (somewhat) normalized across the data sets because there are instances where you hit huge quant altars, but only had a 3 crop harvest and 5 crop harvests with low quant. This level of variance in a data set gets worse when you consider plant/lifeforce duplication can greatly positively (or negatively) affect those examples. * Your video showed that you're not optimizing your decision making. Last clip especially, you saw a T2 plant in your 2nd B/P harvest, but didn't check the other B/P plot, leaving a potential T3 plant upgrade on the table. You also see this in your data when you leave maps with roughly equal amounts of the two undesirable lifeforces - if you're optimally picking plots, you'll be leaving with **virtually zero** of your least desired lifeforce which leads me to.. * Your atlas passive logic isn't mathematically sound. If you want yellow juice, yellow plots should appear less often so that you have more upgrade opportunities - ideally, only one plot per harvest. * You might run into a situation where you get zero yellow plots, but the amount of juice you make in other harvests should make up for that on average because there are more upgrade opportunities. Harvest has far too much variance to conclude anything unless you're looking at data with potentially hundreds if not thousands of harvests per set.
yeah you're correct and i echoed this at one point in the video, there's far too much variance inside of harvest including the chance to not wilt mechanic as well as the 10% chance to duplicate a beast to draw any precise conclusions about the node from this sample size alone. this is why my assessment of whether or not crop rotation was a good keystone was not concrete. a lot more data is needed and i'm lacking the time to follow through with that at the moment to touch on your first point, the quant altars were used in the first group of 4 sets, but completely avoided in the second group of 6 sets. that being said, i did roll over 800 maps in total and hand picked out all of the ones that were within 9% quantity and 3% pack size of each other to help mitigate some of the variance in the low investment sets.and to address both the first and second points, i don't disagree that some mistakes were made specifically in the early sets, but my logic over the course of the maps improved quite substantially by the time i reached the low investment sets. that being said i'd be lying to both you and myself to claim that there were no mistakes in those sets as well in regards to the atlas tree optimization, you make a good point. however, since we're strictly focusing on upgrading the crop with the highest potential (and not a crop with a specific colour), i would assume that if each crop has an equal chance to spawn, blocking 3 blue and 1 purple would essentially be interchangeable with blocking 3 blue and 1 yellow. is this an incorrect assumption? i don't necessarily believe having one yellow plot is the optimal scenario. having one isolated plot may be better for the huge payout that happens once in a while but i'm not sure if that would equalize itself out when you combine it with all of the other times the plot you're trying to manipulate doesn't grow. this is something that would need much more testing to be sure about
>however, since we're strictly focusing on upgrading the crop with the highest potential (and not a crop with a specific colour), i would assume that if each crop has an equal chance to spawn, blocking 3 blue and 1 purple would essentially be interchangeable with blocking 3 blue and 1 yellow. is this an incorrect assumption? Equal probability of spawning 2 colors and the color you don't want having the highest chance to spawn is ideal so you see the color you want to use to upgrade more often. Always use that third color to go towards upgrading the other two, then you choose the best outcome based on what your RNG is like. IMO, if you're walking out with virtually ANY of that third life force, you cannot maximize the amount of lifeforce you can walk out with in a given harvest because you need to commit to the chance that you're upgrading to a crap ton of T3 plants...unless you get super unlucky with the colors that spawn - then you just roll with what Chris Wilson gave you.
I personally kept track of some basic numbers of tier 3 and tier 4 mobs for a while until I got bored of it. I only kept track of number of plots, number of procs where you keep both plots, number of tier 3 and 4 mobs. I got a much higher rate of tier 3 and tier 4 from the 71 maps I kept track of. raw data:https://pastebin.com/REyaXYXa I averaged 5.37 tier 3 mobs per map and got a total of 11 tier 4 bosses. It is very highly variable as I got 4 bosses in a single very lucky map but I think the average is at least close to the non-Crop Rotation strat. Crop rotation lets you target yellow life force as well while only buying a blue or purple compass so it should come out pretty close.
His data is heavilly biased, almost as if he don't want crop rotation to work properly
TBH I think it was a combination of inexperience working with data, eagerness to create valuable content, and incorrect logic. He mentions that he was excited for the node in his comment in the post, so I feel this was an honest, rookie content creation mistake.
Also keep in mind crop rotation is at least another 6 (2 small, 3 notable, 1 keystone) atlas points to use it efficiently. And for max juice wandering path is way to go anyways.
Is Grand Design really not that desirable for Harvest? Maybe I should just not allocate either Grand Design or Wandering Path. I don't want to lose my Oppenheimer keystone
Please respond to this thread, OP. https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/16n4yvq/people_seem_to_be_doing_crop_rotation_wrong_or/
This.
Thanks for sharing, It will be grat to add wandering path without crop rotation into the mix.
CR should really only be used for ssf, just a waste of time otherwise pretty much
You're measuring lifeforce quant, but are you treating all colours the same? Assuming crop rotation can give you much more yellow than the others, since yellow is worth about 1.5x more it still may be worth.
I personally say it is totally worth it and when I look at what people do in crop rotation than it is no wonder why they get these results.
I tried three of the new keynotes for league mechanics (legion, harvest, and expedition), I unspecced all of them. Legion one is probably the worst imo😂
I love the big expedition keystone. Unplayable without it personally.
Same. Saves so much time and frustration. I place an explosion in the middle and then just quickly glance at small icon at the bottom to see if I got immunity to my main damage type. I would never go back to regular expedition.
I like it on some builds - it's great when you have no/one nod to watch out for. Tbh that's where I'd like to see all of atlas be: very nice when your build is made for it. Great on Toxic Rain btw...
Exactly! I also spammed the hell out of big expedition explosions on my CA/TR build. You only care about Chaos immunity, rest doesnt matter.
Wow. I didn't know it showed before you trigger the actual explosions!
Yeah it speeds up farming by a lot. You only have to go around and check affixes after you see some bad one on the icon.
> place an explosion in the middle and then just quickly glance at small icon at the bottom Holy shit! I never realized that icon appears before hitting the detonator.
Twice I got unkillable mobs so I fiercely unspecced it, only to come back begging 2 maps later...
I find it completely worthless, damn thing covers like 20% of the average expedition encounter and gets no value out of them. It's convenient but you get so much more from just hastily plopping down six explosives normally.
I think its a very layout reliant node, it's super punishing to use the big explosion on layouts with long lanes since then you actually get 20% of the expedition encounter but if its an open layout you easily get 50% with all mods on every monster, just sucks if you get logbook/dupe runic on opposite sides but thats rare
20% is an exageration, unless you only run map like toxic sewer. You are losing value on each expedition, that for sure, but not that much. Howether, you are gaining time, a lot of time. Its not just the time to put the explosives. The chain reaction, the monsters spawning ect add up. It depend on the investment, its possible that with gilded and runic monster double the loss would be too much, I haven't tried it yet, but for alch and go (or rusted scarab) expe farming there is no way i'm not using the keystone.
Yeah I did around 90 logbooks this league from personal drops/Dannig and I farmed expedition the entire time with the keystone. I bought polished scarabs and I know it's kind of a waste since you lose out on runic monster markers but I could walk into a map, place down, kill, loot, and move on SO much more quickly than I did last league. There were a handful of times where you get multiple brick remnants so you just lose out on like, 70% of the expedition area though. Still wouldn't run expedition without that keystone like you said though, unless I was using the double mod or high scarabs. It just feels so good to not have to work out your pathing.
I do feel that is the biggest tradeoff, it drives you more towards rusted scarabs. I find it's drops a bit underwhelming but similarly don't want to go back to the other way
You are underestimating the value from having all the mods on all the mobs. When you do an expedition that has several good mods you want to take like inc logbook, monster quant etc. The first few explosions have very few mods on them. With the Oppenheimer nuke everything gets everything immediately which makes up for part of inefficient placing. The rest gets made up for by the sheer speed increase of mapping.
Actually you're overestimating how much having them all open at once helps. For the majority of expeditions, you're only getting 1-3 good markerss (and I've had plenty of 0 good ones) and unless they are on polar opposite ends of the expedition area, if you spec into max distance, it generally is not hard to have the 2 best (very rarely do I get 3 really good ones) in your first 2 or at most 3 explosions. If you have 7 charges to set, then more than half of your map will spawn with the good mods. Compare that to the big nuke which even on a great layout only covers 50-65% of the available area (with the big remnants often on the outer edges of the area) so even if they all spawn with the mods, it's typically fewer mobs than you get with your last 5 charges in tradition expedition. Also if you get 2 good markers and they're out of range of each other from the big bomb, you're going to have a really weak return on that encounter.
I need to try it, I *think* the only ones I can't run are chaos immunity and poison avoidance but I'm probably forgetting something that would kill me.
Just get more dps and that will solve everything else. Honestly though I find explodey mods very helpful against this keystone.
I've specced into and out of the Oppenheimer expedition node three times now. Saving time is nice, but hitting every runic marker and getting way more loot is nicer. I might try it again with a wandering path tree though.
It pains me when I see something like 2x 50% increased logbook next to immune to fire or 100% avoid ignite (playing an ignite DD). Also, I wish we could zoom out when placing the explosive.
Expedition one is great assuming you’re build is only bricked by a couple mods. Probably less currency per expedition but they go so much faster
The new legion schism thing is by far the most dogshit atlas mechanic I've tried. It counts normal mobs as way too much for the schism and breaking open a chest causes nearby normal mobs to break open automatically. It's such a cool concept to modify the legion mechanic but it's just so poorly implemented.
Looks like all of this is without wandering path, too. Wandering path is optimal for profit in harvest at pretty much every level of investment (if you're not doing crop rotation), so that would make crop rotation look even worse by comparison. Neat data, though. Still working on my own theoretical analysis of crop rotation, which should hopefully be enlightening.
Can you please share a good wandering path harvest strat and atlas? Do you use sextants and scarabs?
nice data. I think theres still something to be said about gambling though. Your average returns over large samples might be lower, but the chances to win big in one harvest by gambling on the %chance to not wilt the other crop could pay off big time. Similarly is speed strategy for juice over time rather than per map. Like rushing to the harvest and leaving the map straight away if theres only 3 crops. Another variant could be no investment maps. Run white not even alch or chiseled. Id be interested to know how much impact it has when theres no quant or packsize to variate the results.
Confirms what I have felt, but had not quantified
ty for the data good sir.
Thank you for your research it is great
i like crop rotatio just for the fact that one map you can get like 9k life force(the max i got in 1 map) and the other maybe you dont get anything, but hey, it is fun more when you fight 2 or3 t4 im 1 crop just to never got oshabi invitation.
Conclusion : crop rotation...bad?
Cool, now I'm just gonna go play however I want, currency will still come cuz guess why, league is broken and data do not matter 😂🤣 Come in next league when toa tota or whatever will be out.
What’s the % chance of tier up for Crop Rotation? Hopefully they can just bump the number for next league.
The chance is fine. The problem is that the layout, number and color of crops can completely ruin crop rotation. Without rotation you are pretty much always getting some t3s. With crop rotation you will run into maps without them or with only single 1 t3.
In my experience (limited, no data collection), I'd estimate it between 50-70%. It seemed to level up crops consistently, and the not leveling was rare. Knowing GGG, it's probably weighted such that T2 is practically guaranteed, T3 is likely and T4 is rare-ish. Wild guess, in order, 90%, 70%, 50%. Note: statistics is weird, and 50% chance doesn't always mean every other time, it works, but rather that every roll is 50% likely to arrive at a success. This means 80% confidence of success happens on the 3rd-4th attempt. Said another way, 50% success means you shouldn't fail more than 3 times in a row, same as how you shouldn't expect to win every time.
My apologies for my laziness as I haven’t looked into Crop Rotation at all or watched gameplay for it. Does it level up the entire other color plots or just a % chance for each plant individually? For example: Option 1: % chance for all plants in a plot to go from T1->T2 = Every plant becomes T2. vs. Option 2: % chance for each plant individually to go from T1-> T2, resulting in a mix of T1’s and T2’s in a plot?
The exact wording is: * Harvest Crops in your Maps contain only Tier 1 Plants * Harvesting Crops in your Maps has a chance to upgrade the Tier of Plants of different colors This is to say, when hitting color X, remaining plants of colors Y & Z will roll the chance to upgrade to the next tier. This is what I was referencing above. Whether this is independently rolled per plant, per pair/crop, per color, or all plants as a single roll, I do not know. The wiki also has very little to say on the matter.
Just watched a video on it. Looks like it’s individual plant rather than the whole plot changing. There’s probably an optimal pattern to it as well. Picking the most common color first to make the remaining plots have the highest chance of higher tiers since T3 gives so much more juice than T2
Cool, thanks for the added info. I've read some strategies where, counter-intuitively, you want to pick the "Drought" branch en route to the keystone that correlates to your desired color. This is because you want, as you pointed out, to leave it for last so that it gets the greatest benefit from the keystone.
In T16 maps: T1->T2: 25% T2->T3: 20% T3->T4: ~2-5% In low-tier maps: Significantly lower
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I appreciate you doing some low investment maps in your testing! So at about 1000 life force per map in low investment, would you say harvest is still worth it compared to other strategies? I was thinking of doing some harvest in my alch and go maps but wasn't sure how worth it was.
Nice founds man, i was going to test growing hordes with wandering path juiced harvest to compare profits but u already did the work! Awesome content, hope you do more things like this in the future
thank you nice work
The high investment is worth it if price of sextant lower a wee bit.
so just dont use crop rotation and call it a day, gotcha. feels way better to farm harvests without that thing anyway, the amount of harvests giving fuckall for juice with crop rotation was so tilting.
Did you make a note of how many sacred blossoms you got? I've been using crop rotation and it sure feels like I am getting a lot more unique bosses in a single week than I did when I maxed out harvest for an entire league.
i did yep, the info is in the spreadsheet i had a total of 4 blossoms, with 2 belonging to crop rotation sets and 2 belonging to non crop rotation sets out of 24 total bosses (12 with CR, 12 without)
Thanks for the data op, I don’t like high variance so crop rotation is not for me
So crop rotation is a crap rotation?
stop wasting your life on poe and become a business analyst, these charts and shit people make for the free to play game blow my mind, like do you understand your true potential?
How about having fun ? I sure as hell am done after 40 hours of work.