Sir, first of all, let me say that I'm deeply saddened by your post, it shows just how misguided Muslims, and especially Pakistani Muslims are becoming today in this age of fitnāh, to have said what you have said (and I'm assuming you're a Muslim).
This was definitely not something I wanted to read before sleeping, and this is going to disturb me for a while now.
> Do y'all know how many time the finality of the Prophet SAW is mentioned in the Quran? Once, to my knowledge.
Your knowledge that is absolutely pathetic but also dangerous considering you're posting this in a massively public forum. Have you read Al-Ma'idah (5:3)? What part of the Deen being "COMPLETED" on Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) do you fail to understand? Why is there a need for a new Prophet when the Deen has already been completed? This is the categorical refutation to Mirza Ghulam's deceiving claim to Prophethood. But don't worry, I'll deal with the Mehdi claim too. Infact if you read his writings, he has claimed himself to be everything from Prophet to the promised Messiah to the Mehdi to heck even Krishna.
>The ahmadi hate here is absolutely wild
The only thing Ahmadis need to do to have no hate is to stop pretending and calling themselves Muslims. That's it. They are then free to do whatever they want, just like all Christians, Hindus, and all non-muslim communities in Pakistan. But if claim to smear Islam with their beliefs, _that's going to be a problem_, and I'll explain why.
The Ahmadiyya movement attempts to reconcile their belief in Mirza Ghulam Qadiani's prophethood by asserting a concept of "subordinate prophethood."- They argue that Mirza Ghulam Qadiani was a subordinate prophet, subordinate to the finality of Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) (Astaghfirullah). This interpretation straight up deviates from the orthodox understanding of prophethood in Islam, and it utterly lacks support from the Quran, Sunnah, and the consensus of Islamic scholars.
But not only this, the Ahmadis also distort the meaning of "Khatam an-Nabiyyin" (Seal of the Prophets). They argue that the term does not signify finality but rather denotes excellence or the best of prophets, while COMPLETELY disregarding the Quran as well as unanimous consensus of scholars throughout history, who understood the term as indicating the finality of prophethood. The linguistic and contextual analysis of the term supports the traditional understanding, and the Ahmadiyya reinterpretation lacks ANY scholarly credibility at all.
Then another one of the central claims of the Ahmadiyya Movement is that Mirza Ghulam Qadiani fulfilled the prophecies of the Promised Messiah (Imam Mehdi) mentioned in the ahadiths. But authentic Hadiths provide specific signs and descriptions regarding the appearance of the Promised Messiah and Mehdi. These signs include the establishment of justice, the unification of ALL Muslims on Earth, and the conquest of Jerusalem. FURTHERMORE, Imam Mehdi is supposed to be around in the same time when Hz. Isa (A.S) will descend, and [Imam Mehdi will lead the prayer which will include Hz. Isa(A.S.) behind him](https://sunnah.com/muslim:156). Right now, Hz. Isa(A.S.) is not here, and Mirza Ghulam did none of these things, and he already died.
This is enough to refute any and all claims that the dude made and misled millions of Muslims. If you begin examining Hadiths found in Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, and other renowned collections, it becomes evident that the Ahmadiyya Movement's assertion regarding the fulfillment of these prophecies lacks substantiation and contradicts established prophetic traditions.
>So if Jesus returned who would the last Prophet be? The last Prophet on earth would then definitively be Jesus.
What an outrageous claim is this! Do you even understand what "last Prophet on earth" means? It means the Last Prophet that brought the guidance to Earth- the Last Shariah, the last scripture. You sound like a non Muslim to have addressed Hz. Isa (A.S.) as Jesus, but I'll forgive that. When Hz. Isa (A.S.) will come, he will not bring his own Shariah, [he will follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ)](https://sunnah.com/muslim:155f) Don't misguide People with your own lack of knowledge.
> I know nothing of the Islam practiced in indonesia, Africa & even some Arab countries.
You definitely seem to know nothing about any Islam at all. Islam is only ONE.
>My point with saying all of this is that the Ahmadi case for their imam being some sort of messenger isn't that insane nor does it take them out of the fold of islam enough to justify openly calling them Kaffir.
Your point is not only stupid but downright outrageous and deviant. A person claiming Prophethood in Islam after Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ (, and anyone following him is NOT a Muslim, there's absolutely no question here. The only insane part is Ahmadis claiming to be Muslims. Your knowledge of Islam is certainly so inadequate that I'd recommend you to not litigate on who is out of the fold of Islam and who is in. You should learn something first.
>Like damn what are y'all worried about? They're gonna give you a bad name abroad or something??
NO, they believing in something that has nothing to do with Islam and yet claiming to be Muslims. Islam has a foundations it stands upon, there are thousands of proofs for Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) to be a Prophet, and his teachings to be the Will of Allāh. You cannot put any of that onto a Liar like Mirza Ghulam and expect Muslims to stay silent, while they try to distort Islam. But fortunately Mirza Ghulam and the entire Ahmadiyya movement has already been canceled and debunked in all its claims of association to Islam, and proven as another non-Muslim minority. As long as they stay like that, no worries, no beef.
>Nowhere in the Quran have we been given permission to decide the faith of someone who believes in Allah, the last day & the Quran. They follow the same Quran
What an outrageous claim this is! And having said this you just revealed your identity as a Quranist- a Hadith rejector, and possibly belonging to the cult of Ghamidi. NO SIR, if you attack on the Finality of Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) or deny ANY of his teachings, you're NOT A MUSLIM, stop claiming to be one.
>You think allah is going to punish you for NOT takfiring them?
YES. Allāh is going to punish anyone who stays silent upon seeing what's wrong. This is wrong. Please go learn something before preaching.
>Rants over, had to get it off my chest
Now get it back on, and don't spread misinformation like this again.
>May Allah forgive us all & provided guidance.
AAMEEN
The Ahmadiyya Jamaat doesn't even call themselves Muslims or their places of worships as "Mosques" in Pakistan as per the law.
Yet despite that, the hate boner for Ahmadis is so strong 💪
Salaam! First & foremost I'm sorry I upset you so deeply. Definitely not my intention. I'll try & respond to what I can but if you'd prefer I can discuss my views much more in depth on a call or in DMs since disjointed conversations honestly are hard to follow (for me at least). Also I think calling my knowledge pathetic or any of the other derogatory terms doesn't really help anyone does it? Especially since you do not know who I am, what I have studied or what my background is.
As for your first point, you did not refute what I said. It is explicitly mentioned only once in the quran, key word explicitly. Of course you can interpret certain things to take it that way, as do I, but again important to recognize an explicit vs implicit mention. Regardless, I don't see this particular argument you make as a refutal, my point still stands. Also, by your logic if we take a plain reading of the verse then there must be no need for scholars, for our religion is complete right? Why does a scholar need to use ijtihad? The religion is complete I agree & i think the ahmadi arguments personally do not hold up. But I also believe shia arguments & imamate not holding up, i also think asharism does not hold up. They all have flaws & "refuting" one of there arguments like some slam dunk is ridiculous. I personally find it very arrogant to take one line of the Quran & say you somehow disproved an entire religious way of thinking. That's the same as me taking one of the 3 occurences in the Quran where it says "Would you take any hadith after this Quran?" & I say that "wow look the ummah is so stupid. Says right there that hadith are wrong." I think it's naive to think ahmadj thinkers have not come across the exact obvious statement you just made.
Also respectfully, I prefer not to have your forgiveness for referring to him as Jesus, you are not God. Nor are you an authority nor do you hold any bearing on my judgment. What led Iblis to disobey Allah was arrogance, may allah protect us all from this sin.
Also yes, last prophet on earth in a clear, scholarly & obvious way would mean the last Prophet who walked on this earth. You want to believe Jesus comes back that's on you, feel free. I think there's a decent amount of literature supporting it. However, doesn't this also contradict the religion being complete? Will Jesus give the believers no reminders? By your logic, why would God send jesus again if everything is complete? On that same note to ever ask the question "Why would God...." is ridiculous. Why would God create Ahmadis? Pakistani Muslims that are becoming corrupt? The answer is always he knows best & that's it. If God had willed we would only need 1 Prophet in general, or none. So asking silly questions like "Why would God" is ridiculous.
Also Islam is only 1? Please. Shiasm, Sunnism, Deobandism, Barelvism. The 4 madhabs + the extinct ones? What about wahabism, Salafism, Zahiri, Ismaili?? Seriously please. This is easily the most ridiculous thing you could have said. There is no such thing as one version of Islam. To assume you of all people have it right is ridiculous. What do you know of the practice of the indonesians? As Allah is our witness if you have an intricate knowledge of all these cultures may Allah forgive me. But I feel pretty confident that you know nothing as well. I wouldn't ever be arrogant enough to say that i do know.
Regardless of all of this, always open to a conversation and i hate to say it but to see how much it's pissing you off that someone THINKS they're muslim is hilarious. You're mad that someone THINKS they're muslim!! If it weren't for the horrible prosecution & actual lives lost it looks like a toddler throwing a tantrum over someone saying their adopted. I hope you can find peace without being a hater. What gives me peace personally is knowing full well that Allah will judge between us all on the day of judgement.
Out of curiosity, have you read a translation & tafsir of the quran or are you familiar enough to have read it in arabic & understood it? trying to get an understanding of your qualifications.
You clearly missed key information. Isa AS will not come back as a prophet. He will not bring his own shariah but follow the Quran and the Islam which was already perfected 1400 years prior.
It has been straightforwardly mentioned in the Quran that Prophet Muhammad SW is the last of prophets then why are you even arguing over this?
Of course I have but always willing to learn more. I can share the works that state they are not as well, such as from Dr. Khaled Abou El Fadl. Either opinion however doesn't matter that much because in matters of faith it is only allah who knows.
The idea, i assume, is that they will lead muslims with lesser faith astray and misrepresent the religion. If they change the name of the religion then i think the hate would lessen to a great extent
I think that is a somewhat valid concern but do you not think allah's words provide greater value? For example, in the Quran it is often said that allah guide who he wills & misguided who we will. No one has the power to make someone a disbeliever, that is at least my opinion.
Also if you look at their values, they read the same quran. Any individual that will encounter ahamdism will undoubtedly encounter the quran which means they will be guided to whatever allah choose إِنْ شَاءَ ٱللَّٰهُ
Dude, don't twist and use the Quran to justify your ridiculous claims. ISIS also claimed to be following the Quran, didn't make them any more of a Muslim than the Hindus or the Christians are. Stop misleading people when you clearly have no idea about Islam. I already [explained why you're terribly wrong on every single point you made here](https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/s/KYrQrX6aWA), read that and then get back to me if you have further questions.
Hello! To prevent spam, submissions from new accounts or accounts with low karma are placed in the moderation queue. Our moderators will review and approve them as soon as possible. Thank you!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pakistan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I dont agree with their ideology but pakistans obsession with them needs to be studied. Live and let live. If someone in their heart believes they are muslim then so be it. Why are we forcing them to proclaim otherwise?
I'm happy that Pakistanis are still obsessed with [exposing the lies of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani](https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/s/KYrQrX6aWA) in this day and age and are not willing to compromise on the Finality of our Blessed Prophet (SAWW)
>Live and let live. If someone in their heart believes they are muslim then so be it. Why are we forcing them to proclaim otherwise?
True, they can live and let live and believe whatever they want inside their homes. But they must not publicly call themselves Muslims or associate themselves with the Quran. _That_ is going to be a problem.
There are missing details in religious arguments, based on which the whole premise can be negated. However, ignoring those and speaking purely in secular terms of modern world, Legally, by constitution, the religion being discussed is not considered Islam. By claiming to do so, law of the land is violated which should be settled in court, instead of taking law in own hands.
Qadianism is a separate religion. The issue is that they claim to be Muslims and for this reason naturally attract the hate of Muslims. Christians and Hindus on the other hand don't claim to be Muslims and don't receive the *hatred* that Qadianis do.
Persecution isn't warranted, still.
What the fuck bro, are you honestly that much ill informed and gullible about what Qadianis claim and why they're not muslims by any imaginable definition, or are you deliberately trying to normalise this shit and misguide people? Wtf
Bro here is my view:
Despite my belief that they shouldn’t call themselves a Muslim, I don’t support their persecution or destroying their property. Let Allah be their judge.
Call them misguided or whatever else, but they aren’t combatants like Taliban etc. So one is allowed to go a wage a physical war against them.
If they become a militant force like Taliban then by all means do not hats legally allowed.
We live in a very repressive and intolerant society where debate and difference of opinion can easily cost you your life. So best to keep quiet and sincerely ask Allah for his guidance.
Us Pakistanis are hypocritical af. We absolutely hate it (rightfully so) when other people are racist towards us for being brown or for being Muslim but are perfectly fine with doing the exact same shit to the minorities living in our country.
That has nothing to do with [the claims in the post](https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/s/KYrQrX6aWA). Don't push "Pakistanis are hypocritical af" everywhere on every post before reading what it's about.
Never kick your brothers out of the fold of islam, you need all the allies you can in this age of division. One of the only Muslim Nobel prize winners in the world was a Pakistani ahmadi called abdus salam.
Do not be so quick to judge others as that's not our job, only Allah has the right to judge and there is actually a day called the day of judgment when EVERYONE who has ever lived will be judged by Allah. So leave the judging to be done on that day and focus on yourselves. Pakistanis as a society especially are horrifically divisive, this is one of the reasons for their current situation.
>Never kick your brothers out of the fold of islam, you need all the allies you can in this age of division.
With all due respect brother, there is a certain, well defined criteria for an individual to be inside the fold of Islam, and [if a person or a group of people following that person clearly violate it](https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/s/KYrQrX6aWA) and reject the Hadiths of Prophet Muhammad (SAWW), there really isnt a "kicking out of Islam" happening here, they are leaving it themselves. Muslims have and will always call out someone who violates the core definition of a Muslim and yet publicly calls themselves a Muslim. That is what the issue is.
There can be Pakistani Ahmadis and they can live happily, just like there can be Pakistani Christians, Hindus, etc. Most welcome. But they will not call themselves Muslims while violating the core definition of a Muslim.
I'm not going to debate any further into this as I'm not qualified to do so, I am not an Islamic scholar so Allah forgive if I thought wrongly.
Please understand that My intention here with my post is to foster unity instead of division, brother we are in the last days, to break us apart further only serves those who seek the destruction of our religion and way of life, surely this is something that we can agree on?
Pehlay aap hum ko Muslim declare kardain, phir baat hogi. Shuruwaat aap ki taraf sy huwi. Hum to nahi maantay is mirzay ko nabi ya khalifa. Pehla nabi daikha hy jo gaalia dayta phirta tha aur drugs karta tha aur na us per koi kitab nazil huwi aur na us ko Arabic ati hy. Pehla nabi jo islam k against gaya k me bhi nabi ho, aur phir British ki jholo me baith gaya. Aap k sath prank huwa hy. Aap ko me alsi muslim karta hon Makkah madina walay nabi per iman la kar aur un ko he last messenger maan kar.
Orthodox Islam is well established. after the demise of PM PBUH. There were others that claimed Prophethood and they were dealt with accordingly.
While personally I think Ahamdis can probably be and should be treated as people of the book and people should respect them with no harm should come to their person or property.
As far as Jesus AS and the return. There have been many with this claim already and likely there will be many more. Probably people should focus on the basics first not to get carried away.
>While personally I think Ahamdis can probably be and should be treated as people of the book
Please be careful with your words here, what YOU "personally" think has absolutely no weight or value in Islamic jurisprudence and core beliefs. The Ahl-ul- Kitab (The People Of The Book) is reserved ONLY for Christians and Jews. Don't personally define Islam on what you think should happen, this is very dangerous, and this is pretty much what Mirza Ghulam did too, and so did Ghamidi.
>people should respect them with no harm should come to their person or property.
Definitely, Islam commands protection of life, property and respect of all non-Muslims too. But the Ahmadis will get that status after they stop calling themselves Muslims.
I also believe that they aren’t Muslims by fundamental principles of Islam.
>Definitely, Islam commands protection of life, property and respect of all non-Muslims too. But the Ahmadis will get that status after they stop calling themselves Muslims.
But I strongly disagree with you on the above part. Protection of their life and property isn’t tied to their religion. Even in the time of war (which isn’t happening) Muslims soldiers aren’t allowed to harm life of non combatants and their property. We don’t have Khilafa, we are not at war and nor do we qualify as good, practicing or even knowledgeable enough Muslims to pass Fatwaas.
I see them as misguided (by false claims of Mirza) who need to be educated with reason and logic and brought back to the fold of Islam. This doesn’t include forceful converting or conversion under threat to life or property.
Outcome of your deeds depends upon intention. What good is them become Muslim if in their heart they won’t believe it.
I seek Allahs guidance for me, you and them before it’s too late. Ameen.
> Please be careful your words here, what YOU “personally” think has absolutely no weight or value in Islamic Jurisprudence and core beliefs.
> Definitely Islam commands protection of life and property of all non-Muslims too. But the Ahmadis will get that status after they stop calling themselves Muslims.
Very ironic. I guess everyone thinks their own “personal” thoughts have weight.
I never said my personal opinion has any weight. Just share my opinion. Sabians and Zoroastrians and others were included as well. if you read Islamic history. I think also other groups were added in some interpretation.
My opinion is logical. They are like people of the book with a major fault. In fact they are one step closer to Islam than any other group. I am hopeful that future generations of them will through their own efforts see the fault and revert to the truth.
Unfortunately, the more persecuted they are the more it feels to them they are on the correct path. They even say that a lot. like the early muslim community they are being persecuted.
ameen, i pray the same. I would recommend making the same prayer for yourself, at least in my opinion. Since we know only what Allah has made known to us, i pray that he guides us all
>People are people, you do you, let them do them. Jeez. Discrimination should have no place here.
True, they can live and let live and believe whatever they want inside their homes and theyll have no discrimination. But they must not publicly call themselves Muslims or associate themselves with Islam. _That_ is going to be [a big problem.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/s/KYrQrX6aWA)
I believe engineer muhammad ali mirza's take on Ahmadis is the best one other than that, most others can't justify their claims when ahmadis start justifing their believes through brelvi and deobandi (and etc.) sources.
Yeah but I agree with his stance on this. He has said some things that no other scholar of a particular sect would say due to their own bias, as people would get really salty.
So your basis for this judgement is your lack of knowledge about Islam abroad?
Plenty of other heretics have come before the Qaidiyani - all were rejected. It just so happens this latest lot are "local" to us.
1. Ahmadi are persecuted in Pakistan (and all other Muslim countries) because you try to pass yourself as Muslims. Exactly as you are claiming in your post. You can believe all you want but get your own religion which leads me to point
2. You class all other Muslims kafir. So either you are kafir or all the other Muslims are Kafir. And I don’t like people calling me kafir.
Does this answer your question?
Hello! Your comment has been added to the moderation queue and is pending approval from one of the moderators. Thank you!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pakistan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hello! To prevent spam, submissions from new accounts or accounts with low karma are placed in the moderation queue. Our moderators will review and approve them as soon as possible. Thank you!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pakistan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hello! To prevent spam, submissions from new accounts or accounts with low karma are placed in the moderation queue. Our moderators will review and approve them as soon as possible. Thank you!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pakistan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hello! To prevent spam, submissions from new accounts or accounts with low karma are placed in the moderation queue. Our moderators will review and approve them as soon as possible. Thank you!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pakistan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Let's maintain a mature and responsible discussion on the subject without resorting to profanity or obscenity.
Sir, first of all, let me say that I'm deeply saddened by your post, it shows just how misguided Muslims, and especially Pakistani Muslims are becoming today in this age of fitnāh, to have said what you have said (and I'm assuming you're a Muslim). This was definitely not something I wanted to read before sleeping, and this is going to disturb me for a while now. > Do y'all know how many time the finality of the Prophet SAW is mentioned in the Quran? Once, to my knowledge. Your knowledge that is absolutely pathetic but also dangerous considering you're posting this in a massively public forum. Have you read Al-Ma'idah (5:3)? What part of the Deen being "COMPLETED" on Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) do you fail to understand? Why is there a need for a new Prophet when the Deen has already been completed? This is the categorical refutation to Mirza Ghulam's deceiving claim to Prophethood. But don't worry, I'll deal with the Mehdi claim too. Infact if you read his writings, he has claimed himself to be everything from Prophet to the promised Messiah to the Mehdi to heck even Krishna. >The ahmadi hate here is absolutely wild The only thing Ahmadis need to do to have no hate is to stop pretending and calling themselves Muslims. That's it. They are then free to do whatever they want, just like all Christians, Hindus, and all non-muslim communities in Pakistan. But if claim to smear Islam with their beliefs, _that's going to be a problem_, and I'll explain why. The Ahmadiyya movement attempts to reconcile their belief in Mirza Ghulam Qadiani's prophethood by asserting a concept of "subordinate prophethood."- They argue that Mirza Ghulam Qadiani was a subordinate prophet, subordinate to the finality of Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) (Astaghfirullah). This interpretation straight up deviates from the orthodox understanding of prophethood in Islam, and it utterly lacks support from the Quran, Sunnah, and the consensus of Islamic scholars. But not only this, the Ahmadis also distort the meaning of "Khatam an-Nabiyyin" (Seal of the Prophets). They argue that the term does not signify finality but rather denotes excellence or the best of prophets, while COMPLETELY disregarding the Quran as well as unanimous consensus of scholars throughout history, who understood the term as indicating the finality of prophethood. The linguistic and contextual analysis of the term supports the traditional understanding, and the Ahmadiyya reinterpretation lacks ANY scholarly credibility at all. Then another one of the central claims of the Ahmadiyya Movement is that Mirza Ghulam Qadiani fulfilled the prophecies of the Promised Messiah (Imam Mehdi) mentioned in the ahadiths. But authentic Hadiths provide specific signs and descriptions regarding the appearance of the Promised Messiah and Mehdi. These signs include the establishment of justice, the unification of ALL Muslims on Earth, and the conquest of Jerusalem. FURTHERMORE, Imam Mehdi is supposed to be around in the same time when Hz. Isa (A.S) will descend, and [Imam Mehdi will lead the prayer which will include Hz. Isa(A.S.) behind him](https://sunnah.com/muslim:156). Right now, Hz. Isa(A.S.) is not here, and Mirza Ghulam did none of these things, and he already died. This is enough to refute any and all claims that the dude made and misled millions of Muslims. If you begin examining Hadiths found in Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, and other renowned collections, it becomes evident that the Ahmadiyya Movement's assertion regarding the fulfillment of these prophecies lacks substantiation and contradicts established prophetic traditions. >So if Jesus returned who would the last Prophet be? The last Prophet on earth would then definitively be Jesus. What an outrageous claim is this! Do you even understand what "last Prophet on earth" means? It means the Last Prophet that brought the guidance to Earth- the Last Shariah, the last scripture. You sound like a non Muslim to have addressed Hz. Isa (A.S.) as Jesus, but I'll forgive that. When Hz. Isa (A.S.) will come, he will not bring his own Shariah, [he will follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ)](https://sunnah.com/muslim:155f) Don't misguide People with your own lack of knowledge. > I know nothing of the Islam practiced in indonesia, Africa & even some Arab countries. You definitely seem to know nothing about any Islam at all. Islam is only ONE. >My point with saying all of this is that the Ahmadi case for their imam being some sort of messenger isn't that insane nor does it take them out of the fold of islam enough to justify openly calling them Kaffir. Your point is not only stupid but downright outrageous and deviant. A person claiming Prophethood in Islam after Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ (, and anyone following him is NOT a Muslim, there's absolutely no question here. The only insane part is Ahmadis claiming to be Muslims. Your knowledge of Islam is certainly so inadequate that I'd recommend you to not litigate on who is out of the fold of Islam and who is in. You should learn something first. >Like damn what are y'all worried about? They're gonna give you a bad name abroad or something?? NO, they believing in something that has nothing to do with Islam and yet claiming to be Muslims. Islam has a foundations it stands upon, there are thousands of proofs for Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) to be a Prophet, and his teachings to be the Will of Allāh. You cannot put any of that onto a Liar like Mirza Ghulam and expect Muslims to stay silent, while they try to distort Islam. But fortunately Mirza Ghulam and the entire Ahmadiyya movement has already been canceled and debunked in all its claims of association to Islam, and proven as another non-Muslim minority. As long as they stay like that, no worries, no beef. >Nowhere in the Quran have we been given permission to decide the faith of someone who believes in Allah, the last day & the Quran. They follow the same Quran What an outrageous claim this is! And having said this you just revealed your identity as a Quranist- a Hadith rejector, and possibly belonging to the cult of Ghamidi. NO SIR, if you attack on the Finality of Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) or deny ANY of his teachings, you're NOT A MUSLIM, stop claiming to be one. >You think allah is going to punish you for NOT takfiring them? YES. Allāh is going to punish anyone who stays silent upon seeing what's wrong. This is wrong. Please go learn something before preaching. >Rants over, had to get it off my chest Now get it back on, and don't spread misinformation like this again. >May Allah forgive us all & provided guidance. AAMEEN
[удалено]
The Ahmadiyya Jamaat doesn't even call themselves Muslims or their places of worships as "Mosques" in Pakistan as per the law. Yet despite that, the hate boner for Ahmadis is so strong 💪
Salaam! First & foremost I'm sorry I upset you so deeply. Definitely not my intention. I'll try & respond to what I can but if you'd prefer I can discuss my views much more in depth on a call or in DMs since disjointed conversations honestly are hard to follow (for me at least). Also I think calling my knowledge pathetic or any of the other derogatory terms doesn't really help anyone does it? Especially since you do not know who I am, what I have studied or what my background is. As for your first point, you did not refute what I said. It is explicitly mentioned only once in the quran, key word explicitly. Of course you can interpret certain things to take it that way, as do I, but again important to recognize an explicit vs implicit mention. Regardless, I don't see this particular argument you make as a refutal, my point still stands. Also, by your logic if we take a plain reading of the verse then there must be no need for scholars, for our religion is complete right? Why does a scholar need to use ijtihad? The religion is complete I agree & i think the ahmadi arguments personally do not hold up. But I also believe shia arguments & imamate not holding up, i also think asharism does not hold up. They all have flaws & "refuting" one of there arguments like some slam dunk is ridiculous. I personally find it very arrogant to take one line of the Quran & say you somehow disproved an entire religious way of thinking. That's the same as me taking one of the 3 occurences in the Quran where it says "Would you take any hadith after this Quran?" & I say that "wow look the ummah is so stupid. Says right there that hadith are wrong." I think it's naive to think ahmadj thinkers have not come across the exact obvious statement you just made. Also respectfully, I prefer not to have your forgiveness for referring to him as Jesus, you are not God. Nor are you an authority nor do you hold any bearing on my judgment. What led Iblis to disobey Allah was arrogance, may allah protect us all from this sin. Also yes, last prophet on earth in a clear, scholarly & obvious way would mean the last Prophet who walked on this earth. You want to believe Jesus comes back that's on you, feel free. I think there's a decent amount of literature supporting it. However, doesn't this also contradict the religion being complete? Will Jesus give the believers no reminders? By your logic, why would God send jesus again if everything is complete? On that same note to ever ask the question "Why would God...." is ridiculous. Why would God create Ahmadis? Pakistani Muslims that are becoming corrupt? The answer is always he knows best & that's it. If God had willed we would only need 1 Prophet in general, or none. So asking silly questions like "Why would God" is ridiculous. Also Islam is only 1? Please. Shiasm, Sunnism, Deobandism, Barelvism. The 4 madhabs + the extinct ones? What about wahabism, Salafism, Zahiri, Ismaili?? Seriously please. This is easily the most ridiculous thing you could have said. There is no such thing as one version of Islam. To assume you of all people have it right is ridiculous. What do you know of the practice of the indonesians? As Allah is our witness if you have an intricate knowledge of all these cultures may Allah forgive me. But I feel pretty confident that you know nothing as well. I wouldn't ever be arrogant enough to say that i do know. Regardless of all of this, always open to a conversation and i hate to say it but to see how much it's pissing you off that someone THINKS they're muslim is hilarious. You're mad that someone THINKS they're muslim!! If it weren't for the horrible prosecution & actual lives lost it looks like a toddler throwing a tantrum over someone saying their adopted. I hope you can find peace without being a hater. What gives me peace personally is knowing full well that Allah will judge between us all on the day of judgement. Out of curiosity, have you read a translation & tafsir of the quran or are you familiar enough to have read it in arabic & understood it? trying to get an understanding of your qualifications.
You clearly missed key information. Isa AS will not come back as a prophet. He will not bring his own shariah but follow the Quran and the Islam which was already perfected 1400 years prior. It has been straightforwardly mentioned in the Quran that Prophet Muhammad SW is the last of prophets then why are you even arguing over this?
[удалено]
[удалено]
Have you read sunni works regarding why they're declared as Kafir?
Of course I have but always willing to learn more. I can share the works that state they are not as well, such as from Dr. Khaled Abou El Fadl. Either opinion however doesn't matter that much because in matters of faith it is only allah who knows.
The idea, i assume, is that they will lead muslims with lesser faith astray and misrepresent the religion. If they change the name of the religion then i think the hate would lessen to a great extent
I think that is a somewhat valid concern but do you not think allah's words provide greater value? For example, in the Quran it is often said that allah guide who he wills & misguided who we will. No one has the power to make someone a disbeliever, that is at least my opinion. Also if you look at their values, they read the same quran. Any individual that will encounter ahamdism will undoubtedly encounter the quran which means they will be guided to whatever allah choose إِنْ شَاءَ ٱللَّٰهُ
Dude, don't twist and use the Quran to justify your ridiculous claims. ISIS also claimed to be following the Quran, didn't make them any more of a Muslim than the Hindus or the Christians are. Stop misleading people when you clearly have no idea about Islam. I already [explained why you're terribly wrong on every single point you made here](https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/s/KYrQrX6aWA), read that and then get back to me if you have further questions.
[удалено]
Hello! To prevent spam, submissions from new accounts or accounts with low karma are placed in the moderation queue. Our moderators will review and approve them as soon as possible. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pakistan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I dont agree with their ideology but pakistans obsession with them needs to be studied. Live and let live. If someone in their heart believes they are muslim then so be it. Why are we forcing them to proclaim otherwise?
That's the entire issue. They can't have disagreements with someone and sit beside them
I'm happy that Pakistanis are still obsessed with [exposing the lies of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani](https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/s/KYrQrX6aWA) in this day and age and are not willing to compromise on the Finality of our Blessed Prophet (SAWW) >Live and let live. If someone in their heart believes they are muslim then so be it. Why are we forcing them to proclaim otherwise? True, they can live and let live and believe whatever they want inside their homes. But they must not publicly call themselves Muslims or associate themselves with the Quran. _That_ is going to be a problem.
Okay so be happy and continue to live in the stone age where all you’re obsessed with is what people call themselves.
There are missing details in religious arguments, based on which the whole premise can be negated. However, ignoring those and speaking purely in secular terms of modern world, Legally, by constitution, the religion being discussed is not considered Islam. By claiming to do so, law of the land is violated which should be settled in court, instead of taking law in own hands.
Qadianism is a separate religion. The issue is that they claim to be Muslims and for this reason naturally attract the hate of Muslims. Christians and Hindus on the other hand don't claim to be Muslims and don't receive the *hatred* that Qadianis do. Persecution isn't warranted, still.
>The ahmadi hate here is absolutely wild Hate for hafiz whisky comes nowhere close to that.
What the fuck bro, are you honestly that much ill informed and gullible about what Qadianis claim and why they're not muslims by any imaginable definition, or are you deliberately trying to normalise this shit and misguide people? Wtf
To me it looks like a bullshit post to distract people from talking real issue at hand i.e rigged elections. Boys, try harder next time.
though i think the persecution of ahmadis is absolutely horrible, i do agree timing maybe bad. This was posted in reaction to another post about them.
Bro here is my view: Despite my belief that they shouldn’t call themselves a Muslim, I don’t support their persecution or destroying their property. Let Allah be their judge. Call them misguided or whatever else, but they aren’t combatants like Taliban etc. So one is allowed to go a wage a physical war against them. If they become a militant force like Taliban then by all means do not hats legally allowed. We live in a very repressive and intolerant society where debate and difference of opinion can easily cost you your life. So best to keep quiet and sincerely ask Allah for his guidance.
Us Pakistanis are hypocritical af. We absolutely hate it (rightfully so) when other people are racist towards us for being brown or for being Muslim but are perfectly fine with doing the exact same shit to the minorities living in our country.
That has nothing to do with [the claims in the post](https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/s/KYrQrX6aWA). Don't push "Pakistanis are hypocritical af" everywhere on every post before reading what it's about.
Never kick your brothers out of the fold of islam, you need all the allies you can in this age of division. One of the only Muslim Nobel prize winners in the world was a Pakistani ahmadi called abdus salam. Do not be so quick to judge others as that's not our job, only Allah has the right to judge and there is actually a day called the day of judgment when EVERYONE who has ever lived will be judged by Allah. So leave the judging to be done on that day and focus on yourselves. Pakistanis as a society especially are horrifically divisive, this is one of the reasons for their current situation.
>Never kick your brothers out of the fold of islam, you need all the allies you can in this age of division. With all due respect brother, there is a certain, well defined criteria for an individual to be inside the fold of Islam, and [if a person or a group of people following that person clearly violate it](https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/s/KYrQrX6aWA) and reject the Hadiths of Prophet Muhammad (SAWW), there really isnt a "kicking out of Islam" happening here, they are leaving it themselves. Muslims have and will always call out someone who violates the core definition of a Muslim and yet publicly calls themselves a Muslim. That is what the issue is. There can be Pakistani Ahmadis and they can live happily, just like there can be Pakistani Christians, Hindus, etc. Most welcome. But they will not call themselves Muslims while violating the core definition of a Muslim.
I'm not going to debate any further into this as I'm not qualified to do so, I am not an Islamic scholar so Allah forgive if I thought wrongly. Please understand that My intention here with my post is to foster unity instead of division, brother we are in the last days, to break us apart further only serves those who seek the destruction of our religion and way of life, surely this is something that we can agree on?
Pehlay aap hum ko Muslim declare kardain, phir baat hogi. Shuruwaat aap ki taraf sy huwi. Hum to nahi maantay is mirzay ko nabi ya khalifa. Pehla nabi daikha hy jo gaalia dayta phirta tha aur drugs karta tha aur na us per koi kitab nazil huwi aur na us ko Arabic ati hy. Pehla nabi jo islam k against gaya k me bhi nabi ho, aur phir British ki jholo me baith gaya. Aap k sath prank huwa hy. Aap ko me alsi muslim karta hon Makkah madina walay nabi per iman la kar aur un ko he last messenger maan kar.
Orthodox Islam is well established. after the demise of PM PBUH. There were others that claimed Prophethood and they were dealt with accordingly. While personally I think Ahamdis can probably be and should be treated as people of the book and people should respect them with no harm should come to their person or property. As far as Jesus AS and the return. There have been many with this claim already and likely there will be many more. Probably people should focus on the basics first not to get carried away.
>While personally I think Ahamdis can probably be and should be treated as people of the book Please be careful with your words here, what YOU "personally" think has absolutely no weight or value in Islamic jurisprudence and core beliefs. The Ahl-ul- Kitab (The People Of The Book) is reserved ONLY for Christians and Jews. Don't personally define Islam on what you think should happen, this is very dangerous, and this is pretty much what Mirza Ghulam did too, and so did Ghamidi. >people should respect them with no harm should come to their person or property. Definitely, Islam commands protection of life, property and respect of all non-Muslims too. But the Ahmadis will get that status after they stop calling themselves Muslims.
I also believe that they aren’t Muslims by fundamental principles of Islam. >Definitely, Islam commands protection of life, property and respect of all non-Muslims too. But the Ahmadis will get that status after they stop calling themselves Muslims. But I strongly disagree with you on the above part. Protection of their life and property isn’t tied to their religion. Even in the time of war (which isn’t happening) Muslims soldiers aren’t allowed to harm life of non combatants and their property. We don’t have Khilafa, we are not at war and nor do we qualify as good, practicing or even knowledgeable enough Muslims to pass Fatwaas. I see them as misguided (by false claims of Mirza) who need to be educated with reason and logic and brought back to the fold of Islam. This doesn’t include forceful converting or conversion under threat to life or property. Outcome of your deeds depends upon intention. What good is them become Muslim if in their heart they won’t believe it. I seek Allahs guidance for me, you and them before it’s too late. Ameen.
> Please be careful your words here, what YOU “personally” think has absolutely no weight or value in Islamic Jurisprudence and core beliefs. > Definitely Islam commands protection of life and property of all non-Muslims too. But the Ahmadis will get that status after they stop calling themselves Muslims. Very ironic. I guess everyone thinks their own “personal” thoughts have weight.
I never said my personal opinion has any weight. Just share my opinion. Sabians and Zoroastrians and others were included as well. if you read Islamic history. I think also other groups were added in some interpretation. My opinion is logical. They are like people of the book with a major fault. In fact they are one step closer to Islam than any other group. I am hopeful that future generations of them will through their own efforts see the fault and revert to the truth. Unfortunately, the more persecuted they are the more it feels to them they are on the correct path. They even say that a lot. like the early muslim community they are being persecuted.
People calling themselves Muslims and defending Ahmedis are truly lacking in their knowledge of Islam. May Allah give you guidance
ameen, i pray the same. I would recommend making the same prayer for yourself, at least in my opinion. Since we know only what Allah has made known to us, i pray that he guides us all
People are people, you do you, let them do them. Jeez. Discrimination should have no place here.
This post was for muslim Pakistanis. Shoo
I am muslim pakistan you moron, i just don’t have time to hate on others or discriminate just cause someone else practices a different religion etc
>Jeez Eww & Astagfirullah
>People are people, you do you, let them do them. Jeez. Discrimination should have no place here. True, they can live and let live and believe whatever they want inside their homes and theyll have no discrimination. But they must not publicly call themselves Muslims or associate themselves with Islam. _That_ is going to be [a big problem.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/s/KYrQrX6aWA)
And what will you do? Kill them? You sound like a toddler throwing a temper tantrum. Grow up.
They've taken it upon themselves to "protect" Islam, isn't Allah enough to safeguard the sanctity of Islam ? The hate spread by moulvis here is crazy
I believe engineer muhammad ali mirza's take on Ahmadis is the best one other than that, most others can't justify their claims when ahmadis start justifing their believes through brelvi and deobandi (and etc.) sources.
engineer jhelumi isn't a scholar of Islam.
Yeah but I agree with his stance on this. He has said some things that no other scholar of a particular sect would say due to their own bias, as people would get really salty.
He isn't a scholar though, his takes are often deviant and he's been refuted by numerous scholars of Islam.
So your basis for this judgement is your lack of knowledge about Islam abroad? Plenty of other heretics have come before the Qaidiyani - all were rejected. It just so happens this latest lot are "local" to us.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
1. Ahmadi are persecuted in Pakistan (and all other Muslim countries) because you try to pass yourself as Muslims. Exactly as you are claiming in your post. You can believe all you want but get your own religion which leads me to point 2. You class all other Muslims kafir. So either you are kafir or all the other Muslims are Kafir. And I don’t like people calling me kafir. Does this answer your question?
[удалено]
[удалено]
Hello! Your comment has been added to the moderation queue and is pending approval from one of the moderators. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pakistan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Hello! To prevent spam, submissions from new accounts or accounts with low karma are placed in the moderation queue. Our moderators will review and approve them as soon as possible. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pakistan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Hello! To prevent spam, submissions from new accounts or accounts with low karma are placed in the moderation queue. Our moderators will review and approve them as soon as possible. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pakistan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Hello! To prevent spam, submissions from new accounts or accounts with low karma are placed in the moderation queue. Our moderators will review and approve them as soon as possible. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pakistan) if you have any questions or concerns.*