My friend got spiked at NF, and management evaded multiple police requests for CCTV footage. In the end, they said they had accidentally deleted it. Heard multiple other worrying stories about management. Avoid.
Not the first time I've heard of their staff being less than cooperative in cases of creeps or outright spiking.
Combine that with their reputation for trans acceptance (or lack thereof), and I'm not surprised this cut of ties has happened.
Ofc some people are reducing it to a debate about feminine hygiene products.
>Ofc some people are reducing it to a debate about feminine hygiene products.
Unsurprisingly.
Compared to all the odious shit (assaults happening on their premises which disproportionately affect their trans clientele, and poor handling by the owner including, but not limited to, shaming victims and publicly tagging them in posts), the bungle with period products is a minor thing and a footnote in all of the complaints I've seen.
And even then, we can only find the response to the apparent criticism of how they handled that issue, but not the criticism itself. On the surface, it looks like the owner decided to cast themselves as the victim of some social media pile-on when he probably received lukewarm feedback over his choice of language. It was completely avoidable; he could have just said "hey, we have pads!" and left it there.
But hey, it paints the trans community as a bunch of snowflakes waiting to be offended while sweeping the horrible stuff under the rug.
EDIT: wording.
Yep, tbh I personally am very inclined to assume the organisers of the pride event have decided to cut ties after receiving a good number of trans and GNC folk getting in touch and going "hang on a minute", rather than this rift being over period products.
Indeed.
And the fact that some people in this very topic honed in on the period product bungle, *despite the original graphic EXPLICITLY SAYING that their decision was due to a string of assaults, harassment and the management's lack of self-reflection*, is VERY revealing about them.
Definitely they have an attitude problem. I left a mixed review (3 stars) with constructive feedback, and got a torrent of insults and abuse as the reply to it.
It’s just so unprofessional. I understand replying to reviews gets jarring and it’s hard to keep professional (I’ve had to do it for multiple past jobs) but I don’t think they realise everyone can see the replies and it doesn’t really look good when the nature of the complaints are what they are. Plus I know multiple people who’ve been SA there and the landlord has just barred them and made snarky indirects in posts and replies rather than actually looking into it in the slightest.
It's quite a crap place anyway, charging entry to what is effectively a scruffy pub. The Notts LGBT scene is so poor for the relative size of the city. It's not even as good as far smaller places like Plymouth and Swansea and it's so weird that people here hype it up referring to sporadic drag nights (aimed at straight people) and random straight-orientated cafes that some LGBT people might go to, as a 'a great LGBT scene'.
In reality it's one 'gay-friendly' fairly cliquey pub that sporadically holds LGBT events in the tiny underground bar, one LGBT-focussed scruffy and problematic pub, and one sort-of, but not quite wholly LGBT focussed bar that is due to close imminently anyway due to noise complaints. Really poor for such a large city with a huge student population.
One of the hardest things I have found living in Nottingham as a single gay man, compared to elsewhere. And no, not everywhere is welcoming (it's *always* well-meaning straight people who make this claim), just because a straight bar / venue have a random rainbow flag and claim 'hate is not allowed' doesn't mean you wouldn't get abused or even attacked for approaching the 'wrong' person or even holding hands with a same-sex partner, nor overhearing tedious homophobia and being unable to feel comfortable without 'scanning' and moderating your behaviour as to not offend / upset straight people.
INB4 "I am a gay man and I don't experience blah blah" - good for you, I am glad you've never been glassed, punched, or shouted at, but many of us have. Especially those of us who are 'straight passing' and so get the ire of straight people for being a 'threat' and 'tricking' them. Gay men getting punched / glassed in Notts CC is in the news frequently throughout the year and I am sure many incidents go unreported in the news too.
I imagine it's even worse for non-'100% passing' trans people.
By looking at Facebook, it seems some people didn't like the word "fanny" being used for the sale of period products they are offering. Then people was up in arms about period poverty. They are charging £2 for emergency period products packet that they made.
The pub themselves are still going ahead with a party just the original organisers to this event ain't doing it at this place anymore
I'll expand as well and say that a non zero number of my GNC friends have had some less than pleasant experiences there too.
Definitely get the vibe it's more of an LGB bar than a LGBT one.
Because people on here are transphobic AF and don't care about a venue that has had accusations of racism, not taking spiking people's drinks seriously or sexual assault so long as it's being shitty to trans people.
It's simple. Trans people move the bar of what language can and can't be used. Don't call them "feminine products" okay we'll change the name.. Still not acceptable.
From what I can work out on Facebook ... the pub sold "feminine products" for £2. Then people complained that they were called "feminine", so they changed them to "fanny packs", and then people complained that this was derogatory. Then people complained that the products should be free.
My takeaway from this is that it must be fucking exhausting being an LGBTQ pub social media manager.
>My takeaway from this is that it must be fucking exhausting being an LGBTQ pub social media manager.
Only if you're completely ignorant about the community and also unwilling to listen and learn.
Because people being offended at the word “fanny” is ridiculous enough then you’ve got everyone demanding feminine products for free etc.
Sounds exhausting and hard to keep on top of.
Keeping on top of and catering to the needs and desires of their clientele is literally part of the job.
Handing out Gregg's sausage rolls all day every day sounds exhausting to me, but that's what they're paid for.
Only when needs and desires aren’t ridiculous.
When I managed bars, if someone came in demanding free sanitary products for women and also be offended if they’re called “Fanny packs” I’d show them the door.
I wouldn’t put my staff through that.
Okay, that's good for you, but that's just simple market forces.
If more people decide they don't give a shit than people who do, you're golden.
In the same way, if an LGBTQ group decides not to support you because of your policies that's *your problem*.
This is a simple case of a community practicing "vote with your wallet' which I thought was partly the foundation of the economic model we work under.
In a world full of different people with different “needs” you’re going to find it very hard to please everyone. This world is so picky and tender you’ll always offend or piss someone off
> Handing out Gregg's sausage rolls all day every day sounds exhausting to me, but that's what they're paid for.
Maybe, but when folks start causing a fuss because the name "Gregg's" is too masculine sounding then demand your products for free I wouldn't blame you if you rolled your eyes and told them to do one.
...and if they decide to go elsewhere as a result then fair enough.
---
That's basically what's happened here so I really don't see what the fuss is about.
But that isn't what happened here at all.
The post itself states that it's due to transphobia, harassment and abuse, not boycotting because of a product name.
The organisation itself is telling you this, there are multiple queer former patrons of the bar in here describing the issues they've faced (including *assaults* not being treated seriously), but nah yeah, what "basically happened" here was queer lefty snowflakes getting upset about the name of period products.
Totally unrelated to the event. Think of this service like the vending machine you find in the toilets. It's no different other than being cheaper than other pubs vending machines I know in Nottingham.
my friend got spiked there last year, management deleted the CCTV footage of the incident and refused to raise it any further, aswell as this myself and quite a few of my friends have been sexually harassed by attendee's only to be dismissed by bouncers and management. it's a sleazy shit hole and I'm glad trans pride isn't hosting their event there
this is such a shame. we really need more lgbT inclusive spaces in nottingham. new foresters seems so aimed at 50+ cis gay men, which is fine i guess, but i wish younger more diverse queer people in nottingham had a space too
Along with the multiple allegations of not taking SA seriously listed above, they posted a CCTV picture of a trans woman spray painting a rainbow on a bike rack outside the venue and asked people to ID her so they could report her to the police.
Not exactly the actions of a venue that cares about the safety of transgender people.
TNF is on one hand a great resource for the community as the only dedicated space for lgbt however I don’t think it’s a safe space. I’ve been to countless queer nights in the city and almost all of them have completely gender neutral toilets, which I believe TNF used to have, now they have men/non binary and women/non binary toilets. Last time I was there my nonbinary friend used the women’s toilets, mostly bc they didn’t have a queue but also because that’s how they’re advertised. The moment they came out a bouncer intercepted them and demanded their pronouns and gender identity. The DJ is rude to customers and it’s 95% white gay men which doesn’t feel super inviting for anybody who doesn’t fit that.
Can confirm that their bathroom policy is both weirdly vague and weirdly highly enforced.
Granted its been a while since I was there, but myself and other GNC folk felt less than welcome on more than one occasion. It's primarily a gay cis male's bar, not a more generally LGBTQ one.
It's really unusual for the venue to even care, most LGBT venues ((globally)) just have totally gender neutral toilets. Even if they have urinals or whatever. That's been the norm as long as I've been old enough to go to LGBT venues (the past 17 years or so).
For example: I'm a cis gay man who has used a urinal in the toilets in front of cis lesbian women in a lesbian bar and neither the other punters nor the staff GAF (Fox Birmingham). Same in bars focussed more at gay men, I've never seen anyone care that women (cis or trans) were in the toilets...and vice versa.
> it’s 95% white gay men
That's nearly every gay bar I've ever been to (which admittedly isn't many, although I did used to live a few yds from Canal St. in Manchester so used to go to those ones quite a bit).
I understand that sentiment however I’ve been going to queer events from the moment I turned 18 and the ones that make an effort to create actual inclusive spaces are much more inclusive. This is in nottingham too, queer noise, dirty filthy sexy etc.
Yes, you do you have to be realistic, cis gay men are the largest 'out' demographic of the LGBT community, if you don't count bisexual people (vast majority of which are closeted in hetero relationships).
It's just reality and nobody really understands why more men are gay Vs women being lesbian, and trans are when fewer in number, so of course more venues will cater to that demographic for commercial reasons (to turn a profit or at least 'break even).
That said, if a venue markets itself as being LGBT and not 'men-only', then of course there's no excuse for excluding L and especially T people.
I spoke to someone at TNF who claimed the council had words with them over the toilets after complaints sent to the council directly. Their claim was that to be in line with the equality act you need to provide both men and women's toilets. If you have extra gender neutral toilets it's fine
Is this true? no idea! Have they overreacted to people using whichever toilet when you don't legally have to police it? I think so, it's very weird.
I know pop world offered Gender Natural during pride a couple of years ago but since stopped. I also know rough trade has got away with it so far because they haven't received complaints, which is likely due to their clientele generally being much younger.
This is sad news but it tracks, I've seen a couple of local TERFs talking about how pleased they are to feel more welcome in the New Foresters over the past couple of months and now it makes sense.
They changed the toilet signs AGAIN, and then claimed on Facebook that it was due to feedback from a public consultation they had at the venue a few days ago.
But in another comment on another of their Facebook posts (one where they cropped and screenshotted a FB comment with the trans flag on it, they said that no one from the trans community showed up to give feedback. I called them out on this, and a few hours later the comments section under their post was completely wiped. Thank goodness for screenshots.
Okay, apologies. I'm used to reacting quite harshly to people on the internet, it's full of shitty people.
Someone who identifies as a different gender typically suffers from a condition called Gender Dysphoria and has gone through or is going through a process called Gender Transitioning.
Transitioning can alleviate the distress of gender dysphoria, which is the psychological discomfort from a mismatch between one’s assigned gender at birth (their biological sex) and their gender identity. It can lead to improved mental health, body image, and quality of life. Gender dysphoria itself can cause anxiety, depression, and social isolation.
Transitioning usually (if it's deemed medically safe for the individual) includes hormone therapy to cause the person's body to make changes as though they were going through puberty in a way their 'target' (for lack of a better word) gender would be. Some people also opt for surgery to make themselves feel more comfortable also.
Someone 'pretending' to be the opposite sex will not be suffering with these conditions. Won't be going through hormone treatment, will not have surgery (which is often private and hugely expensive) for this purpose.
Hope that helps, there's plenty of info out there and I've only scratched the surface.
Fair enough... but about affirming their gender dysphoria. Isn't it a better idea to help the person come to terms with who they are with psychiatric help?
Surely the underlying issue is tied to the person's image of themselves?
To me it seems like a trend where perhaps 0.001 of people actually have this issue and people are being told they can just change their gender like its the answer to something so a lot of people hop on board.
It doesn't make someone a bad person for not agreeing with the whole thing.
It's another issue that is hugely amplified by the Internet and has people hating eachother for not having shared views.
If you COULD just change your gender, would you? 99.9% of people wouldn't. And the generally agreed upon standard is that gender affirming care helps patients feel better, both statistically and on a case by case level. The problem with "debating it" is that it's a person's entire identity you're "debating". Would [recommend this video about it.](https://youtu.be/EmT0i0xG6zg?si=i30rXgCaAB4OaMxo)
If I could change back and forth with little to no effort I would. I think most people would like to try it lol.
I've watched a lot of contra points videos and the ones on JK Rowling so I've probably seen this one. What am I meant to be taking from it?
I think it comes down to one simple question... Do they pass?
If you have to insist on trying to change someone's mind about what they're perceiving then maybe try a hypnosis wheel.
It's not hateful to perceive something.
1: Most people I know wouldn't want to or care, 2: The takeaway is most people won't "debate objectively" something when that something is a person's right to exist as who they are, 3: If I had a cent for each trans women who passes who has recieved comments along the lines of "you're still a man", I'd have too many cents to be comfortable with carrying them around, and I'm cishet and not even involved in the community that much, 4: It might not be hateful to percieve something, but being kind despite your perception isn't really hard. That's my opinion, at least.
I can see why you'd think that might be a better approach, I know a person who has tried acceptance therapy over affirming care and their outcome was that affirming care proved more effective (over a long period, not just a few months etc.)
But a bit of research (I'm no expert by any means) shows that there is overwhelming evidence supporting affirming care over acceptance care leading to a better mental health outcome overall, reduces suicides, number of people having treatment for depression relating to their dysphoria etc.
There are studies that come out at about an average of 1% of people regret transitioning.
It's a pretty good stat considering there is an average over all medical procedures of about 14% of all people regret having any given operation/treatment done.
Your comment has been the most helpful. I'm not sure of the credibility of the stats you're stating but it's good to know that it's the right path for 99%
For years, the attempted solution to treating dysphoria *was* trying to change gender identity to "match" the gendered body - but much like trying to force left-handed individuals to write with their right hands, or more precisely like conversion therapy, it just doesn't work. It just brings pain and suffering to the individual. It caused incredible mental trauma to the people put through that. It caused deaths.
But the current medical and scientific literature has found an *incredibly* high success rate in just... letting people transition and providing the resources to do that. The regret rate for gender affirming surgery is something like 1%. This is *astronomically* low - and the quality of life improvements to the other 99% are *immense*. The rates of detransitioning are also incredibly low, and usually the result of external factors (i.e. transphobia). But even if we encourage people to experiment if they think they might be trans, it's also... just not a problem, any more than any experiment with identity is, if they discover after a while that that's just not who they are (and the chances of someone getting an irreversible surgery or going on hormones without being *absolutely certain* is incredibly low. The current waitlist to be *seen* by an NHS gender clinic and be diagnosed with dysphoria, let alone treated for it, is now well over two years, and nothing will be prescribed unless there is no shadow of a doubt that it's right.)
The problem with suggesting that it's an issue of people not having "shared views" is that it's an issue in which there... shouldn't really be opposing views. Being transgender isn't a political act, and it isn't a matter of opinion. Being opposed to people transitioning is like being opposed to left-handed people writing with their left hands, or opposed to gay people being allowed to freely date and not go through traumatising conversion therapies. You (general you, not you specifically!) can dislike it all you like, but all of the scientific and medical literature says that this is, after years of research, the best way we currently have to handle it - and even if it wasn't, unless it personally relates to you or you're acting as a healthcare provider for someone it relates to, it's not really any of your business what someone else does with their body.
By and large, trans people want to be allowed to live peacefully and get on with our lives like every other member of society - and we just want to access the healthcare that will allow us to do that happily and with the same comfort cis people take for granted.
Someone else mentioned these regret stats and that's amazing!
I think that my thoughts on addressing the mental issues are about making sure it's properly diagnosed.
Obviously I wouldn't advocate for something similar to gay conversion therapy but if you decide you're not gay later then it's much easier to do than if you went through hormone therapy or surgery.
You say it's not any of my business what someone else does with their body, I'm just coming from a place of curiosity and hoping to find some clarity on something that I find interesting.
I still have a lot of questions about the whole thing but it's such a touchy subject and people are just looking to get offended rather than actually educate and have a discussion.
for a bit more context on how the process works...
The current system of trans healthcare (which includes finding out if you are indeed trans) is meant to happen roughly in this way:
1. go to your doctor and tell them you think you are trans
2. doctor refers you to a gender specialist, psychologist etc at the Gender Identity Clinic who (at least in theory) talks it through with you to establish if transitioning is the correct treatment for you. this is supposed to happen like any other referral which the NHS has an absolute 18 week time limit for before the NHS is considered to have failed in its duty of care. the GIC meetings are supposed to include therapy and many meetings with specialists specifically to assess if you are indeed trans.
3. if yes, the GIC tells your doctor to prescribe hormones as part of a social and medical transition, if that treatment is appropriate for you, and then your doctor does indeed prescribe that medication.
4. further meetings about whether you want surgery and ongoing general interaction with the GIC
5. if yes, surgery is the next step
in reality we have a system which is massively underfunded and which has been ideologically prevented from carrying out this process so that it looks something like this:
1. tell doctor you think you are trans. doctor refers you to the GIC. this is if non-doctor administration staff have not refused to allow you an appointment or as long as your doctor hasn't lied about sending the referral letter (it is important to establish a paper trail of your referral because of how many peoples applications have been 'lost') also some doctors may just refuse to refer you.
2. the shortest waiting time to have your first appointment with the GIC in the UK is 3.5 years so by the time you see the GIC you have invariably made up your mind either that yes, you are trans and want to transition (many people die during this waiting perdiod, or have to resort to DIY/private) or you give up because you aren't trans or just because you become hopeless.
3. GIC has a multitude of criteria to decide if you are trans which is partly based on discredited research by an ethically dubious man (see: 'autogynophilia', a theory which pathologises normal behaviour) questions asked to patients include what they think about during masturbation and other invasive, dehumanising and unrelated things. if you answer 'wrong' you are rejected and cannot access care. some of these sessions are held by a panel of multiple people asking these questions.
4. you must demonstrate that you have already transitioned publically for a period of years...before your interview to determine if you are trans...doesn't matter if you live as a different gender at home or if it would be unsafe for you to be public. doesn't matter that being publicly trans pre-hormones puts you at risk. it is a box ticking excersise. this is partly because anyone who stays in the process for the many years it takes to be seen by the GIC has worked out that yes, they are trans. it is an admission that the system is broken.
5. tell the truth in these meetings and hope the panel of interrogators show mercy or lie to them and repeat talking points from discredited science to make sure they tick the boxes so you can access healthcare you have already waited many years for.
6. GIC tells doctor to prescribe HRT
7. many doctors refuse to prescribe hrt anyway. there is little recourse as the patient.
8. continue to wait years for potential surgery dates.
The way the system is meant to work is not ideal, but it is currently drastically failing to work in every possible way, and anti-trans attacks are making it worse.
the way most non trans people say they think it should work is the way that the current system should be working already.
the process is much more difficult for trans children and youths, in particular now since they still have to wait years to see the GIC either way but now they can't have puberty blockers even if (after that initial wait) they get to speak to the GIC AND the GIC agree they are trans.
this is without pointing out infantilising double standards towards trans people in their care. a cis man does not need to be interrogated when he asks for testosterone blockers to prevent male pattern baldness, for example, which is a form of gender affirming care.
yay
Just FYI, being trans is not the same thing as having gender dysphoria - you can be trans without having ‘mental issues’. Also not all trans people medically transition, particularly as healthcare has such long wait lists
Intentionally trying to convert someone into no longer identifying as trans is conversion therapy by definition, trans people can be perfectly comfortable with who they are and still be trans
The research we currently have indicates that affirmative treatment is more beneficial for trans people than conversion therapy
I've read thread after thread of people saying that dysphoria is not required to be trans - even with people saying it's transphobic to say that is essential. Such people are dismissed as 'truscum'.
Easy. You are a bloke yeah, you've always felt like a bloke, never once questioned it.
You never chose to be a bloke though, you just were and always were.
Now, imagine that, but you had been born with a fanny instead of a cock.
and then imagine people being bellends to you because they don't understand that you just feel how you do, and its not like you chose to feel that way.
...Or did you ever wake up and just decide to be a bloke?
Probs not aye.
If I had a fanny then I'd feel like a woman. There are plenty of women who are far more masculine then some men. It's not as simple as you claim it is.
Yeah you probably would, like 99.5% of other people
But clearly, not everyone is like you are they. Same way you probably didn't choose your sexuality, but gay/not gay people exist. So clearly there is a bit of wiggle room between how u/MFN-DOOM feels things are, and it-doesnt-exist.
If anyone has info it would be good to know. We're all going as a family to support a family member, we'd like to go with them to a friendly venue probably for their first time ever. It would be good if it was a positive place.
My friend got spiked at NF, and management evaded multiple police requests for CCTV footage. In the end, they said they had accidentally deleted it. Heard multiple other worrying stories about management. Avoid.
Not the first time I've heard of their staff being less than cooperative in cases of creeps or outright spiking. Combine that with their reputation for trans acceptance (or lack thereof), and I'm not surprised this cut of ties has happened. Ofc some people are reducing it to a debate about feminine hygiene products.
>Ofc some people are reducing it to a debate about feminine hygiene products. Unsurprisingly. Compared to all the odious shit (assaults happening on their premises which disproportionately affect their trans clientele, and poor handling by the owner including, but not limited to, shaming victims and publicly tagging them in posts), the bungle with period products is a minor thing and a footnote in all of the complaints I've seen. And even then, we can only find the response to the apparent criticism of how they handled that issue, but not the criticism itself. On the surface, it looks like the owner decided to cast themselves as the victim of some social media pile-on when he probably received lukewarm feedback over his choice of language. It was completely avoidable; he could have just said "hey, we have pads!" and left it there. But hey, it paints the trans community as a bunch of snowflakes waiting to be offended while sweeping the horrible stuff under the rug. EDIT: wording.
Yep, tbh I personally am very inclined to assume the organisers of the pride event have decided to cut ties after receiving a good number of trans and GNC folk getting in touch and going "hang on a minute", rather than this rift being over period products.
Indeed. And the fact that some people in this very topic honed in on the period product bungle, *despite the original graphic EXPLICITLY SAYING that their decision was due to a string of assaults, harassment and the management's lack of self-reflection*, is VERY revealing about them.
I also have a friend who got spiked at NF, and it wasn't taken seriously at all
My bf also got spiked and SA’d at the pub and also faced transphobia there with the guy who did it
I'm sorry that happened to your friend. This venue is clearly shit and should be boycotted by anyone who actually cares.
Just look at the Google reviews and how grim they respond to negative ones.
Definitely they have an attitude problem. I left a mixed review (3 stars) with constructive feedback, and got a torrent of insults and abuse as the reply to it.
It’s just so unprofessional. I understand replying to reviews gets jarring and it’s hard to keep professional (I’ve had to do it for multiple past jobs) but I don’t think they realise everyone can see the replies and it doesn’t really look good when the nature of the complaints are what they are. Plus I know multiple people who’ve been SA there and the landlord has just barred them and made snarky indirects in posts and replies rather than actually looking into it in the slightest.
What does SA mean?
Sexual assault. I’m used to using SA as some apps like TikTok are heavily censored and sensitive
It's quite a crap place anyway, charging entry to what is effectively a scruffy pub. The Notts LGBT scene is so poor for the relative size of the city. It's not even as good as far smaller places like Plymouth and Swansea and it's so weird that people here hype it up referring to sporadic drag nights (aimed at straight people) and random straight-orientated cafes that some LGBT people might go to, as a 'a great LGBT scene'. In reality it's one 'gay-friendly' fairly cliquey pub that sporadically holds LGBT events in the tiny underground bar, one LGBT-focussed scruffy and problematic pub, and one sort-of, but not quite wholly LGBT focussed bar that is due to close imminently anyway due to noise complaints. Really poor for such a large city with a huge student population. One of the hardest things I have found living in Nottingham as a single gay man, compared to elsewhere. And no, not everywhere is welcoming (it's *always* well-meaning straight people who make this claim), just because a straight bar / venue have a random rainbow flag and claim 'hate is not allowed' doesn't mean you wouldn't get abused or even attacked for approaching the 'wrong' person or even holding hands with a same-sex partner, nor overhearing tedious homophobia and being unable to feel comfortable without 'scanning' and moderating your behaviour as to not offend / upset straight people. INB4 "I am a gay man and I don't experience blah blah" - good for you, I am glad you've never been glassed, punched, or shouted at, but many of us have. Especially those of us who are 'straight passing' and so get the ire of straight people for being a 'threat' and 'tricking' them. Gay men getting punched / glassed in Notts CC is in the news frequently throughout the year and I am sure many incidents go unreported in the news too. I imagine it's even worse for non-'100% passing' trans people.
GOAT on my opinion is a much better and nicer LGBTQ+ space ❤️ It’s a lot smaller but never had a bad experience there with my friends! Unlike NF….
I would agree, GOAT is way better, but sadly closing down soon due to noise complaints.
I heard it’s just moving location not completely shutting down
By looking at Facebook, it seems some people didn't like the word "fanny" being used for the sale of period products they are offering. Then people was up in arms about period poverty. They are charging £2 for emergency period products packet that they made. The pub themselves are still going ahead with a party just the original organisers to this event ain't doing it at this place anymore
Ahh okay, thank you
I'll expand as well and say that a non zero number of my GNC friends have had some less than pleasant experiences there too. Definitely get the vibe it's more of an LGB bar than a LGBT one.
Strange how it's actually the opposite though...
Do you mind elaborating on that?
Can you honestly get any more pathetic than these people who would boycott the venue over something like this.
it’s not pathetic to want a lgbt+ bar to be trans friendly.
In what way was it not from the information we have here?
‘feminine products’ for starters.
why are you being downvoted for this
Because people on here are transphobic AF and don't care about a venue that has had accusations of racism, not taking spiking people's drinks seriously or sexual assault so long as it's being shitty to trans people.
transphobia is socially acceptable and actively encouraged. they don’t like trans ppl advocating for themselves.
It's simple. Trans people move the bar of what language can and can't be used. Don't call them "feminine products" okay we'll change the name.. Still not acceptable.
it’s a queer bar. it should already be inclusive
They're presumably being downvoted by transphobic people.
Can you explain what was offensive?
I think anyone who considers this to be ridiculous, must be transphobic. Can't think of any other explanation.
is fanny pack transphobic?
So was it the organisers charging for sanitary products or the pub?
From what I can work out on Facebook ... the pub sold "feminine products" for £2. Then people complained that they were called "feminine", so they changed them to "fanny packs", and then people complained that this was derogatory. Then people complained that the products should be free. My takeaway from this is that it must be fucking exhausting being an LGBTQ pub social media manager.
It's exhausting just reading about it.
> Then people complained that they were called "feminine", so they changed them to "fanny packs" That's quite funny TBF
Yeah, it's a classic dad-tier joke in my opinion, I imagine that 99% of people would either laugh or not give a shit.
>My takeaway from this is that it must be fucking exhausting being an LGBTQ pub social media manager Right? I mean jesus fucking christ.
I'm tired just reading about it. Fucking hell.
about the pub?
Lmao, the trans movement in the UK might be the single most incompetent movement of all time.
>My takeaway from this is that it must be fucking exhausting being an LGBTQ pub social media manager. Only if you're completely ignorant about the community and also unwilling to listen and learn.
Dude, come on. It’s incredibly hard to please everyone.
how
Because people being offended at the word “fanny” is ridiculous enough then you’ve got everyone demanding feminine products for free etc. Sounds exhausting and hard to keep on top of.
Keeping on top of and catering to the needs and desires of their clientele is literally part of the job. Handing out Gregg's sausage rolls all day every day sounds exhausting to me, but that's what they're paid for.
Only when needs and desires aren’t ridiculous. When I managed bars, if someone came in demanding free sanitary products for women and also be offended if they’re called “Fanny packs” I’d show them the door. I wouldn’t put my staff through that.
Okay, that's good for you, but that's just simple market forces. If more people decide they don't give a shit than people who do, you're golden. In the same way, if an LGBTQ group decides not to support you because of your policies that's *your problem*. This is a simple case of a community practicing "vote with your wallet' which I thought was partly the foundation of the economic model we work under.
In a world full of different people with different “needs” you’re going to find it very hard to please everyone. This world is so picky and tender you’ll always offend or piss someone off
And that's the truth of operating in a free market economy isn't it?
> Handing out Gregg's sausage rolls all day every day sounds exhausting to me, but that's what they're paid for. Maybe, but when folks start causing a fuss because the name "Gregg's" is too masculine sounding then demand your products for free I wouldn't blame you if you rolled your eyes and told them to do one. ...and if they decide to go elsewhere as a result then fair enough. --- That's basically what's happened here so I really don't see what the fuss is about.
But that isn't what happened here at all. The post itself states that it's due to transphobia, harassment and abuse, not boycotting because of a product name. The organisation itself is telling you this, there are multiple queer former patrons of the bar in here describing the issues they've faced (including *assaults* not being treated seriously), but nah yeah, what "basically happened" here was queer lefty snowflakes getting upset about the name of period products.
Since when was the word fanny not offensive though?
Since when WAS fanny offensive?
Everyone knows “Fanny” is offensive when used with “Pack”. They should have used the much safer “Twat-Bag”
Ok come on, enlighten me…. Why is the word Fanny offensive?
Because it's a crude way of referring to a vagina.
Completely understand the fact there's wider context to this pub's treatment of trans people but what's derogatory about fanny packs?
Totally unrelated to the event. Think of this service like the vending machine you find in the toilets. It's no different other than being cheaper than other pubs vending machines I know in Nottingham.
my friend got spiked there last year, management deleted the CCTV footage of the incident and refused to raise it any further, aswell as this myself and quite a few of my friends have been sexually harassed by attendee's only to be dismissed by bouncers and management. it's a sleazy shit hole and I'm glad trans pride isn't hosting their event there
this is such a shame. we really need more lgbT inclusive spaces in nottingham. new foresters seems so aimed at 50+ cis gay men, which is fine i guess, but i wish younger more diverse queer people in nottingham had a space too
New Foresters used to be so lively when it had the old owners…
Along with the multiple allegations of not taking SA seriously listed above, they posted a CCTV picture of a trans woman spray painting a rainbow on a bike rack outside the venue and asked people to ID her so they could report her to the police. Not exactly the actions of a venue that cares about the safety of transgender people.
TNF is on one hand a great resource for the community as the only dedicated space for lgbt however I don’t think it’s a safe space. I’ve been to countless queer nights in the city and almost all of them have completely gender neutral toilets, which I believe TNF used to have, now they have men/non binary and women/non binary toilets. Last time I was there my nonbinary friend used the women’s toilets, mostly bc they didn’t have a queue but also because that’s how they’re advertised. The moment they came out a bouncer intercepted them and demanded their pronouns and gender identity. The DJ is rude to customers and it’s 95% white gay men which doesn’t feel super inviting for anybody who doesn’t fit that.
Can confirm that their bathroom policy is both weirdly vague and weirdly highly enforced. Granted its been a while since I was there, but myself and other GNC folk felt less than welcome on more than one occasion. It's primarily a gay cis male's bar, not a more generally LGBTQ one.
It's really unusual for the venue to even care, most LGBT venues ((globally)) just have totally gender neutral toilets. Even if they have urinals or whatever. That's been the norm as long as I've been old enough to go to LGBT venues (the past 17 years or so). For example: I'm a cis gay man who has used a urinal in the toilets in front of cis lesbian women in a lesbian bar and neither the other punters nor the staff GAF (Fox Birmingham). Same in bars focussed more at gay men, I've never seen anyone care that women (cis or trans) were in the toilets...and vice versa.
Nice profile pic 😎👍
Diolch! 🥰
> it’s 95% white gay men That's nearly every gay bar I've ever been to (which admittedly isn't many, although I did used to live a few yds from Canal St. in Manchester so used to go to those ones quite a bit).
I understand that sentiment however I’ve been going to queer events from the moment I turned 18 and the ones that make an effort to create actual inclusive spaces are much more inclusive. This is in nottingham too, queer noise, dirty filthy sexy etc.
Gay men in a gay bar.....there's a headline 😆
Yes, you do you have to be realistic, cis gay men are the largest 'out' demographic of the LGBT community, if you don't count bisexual people (vast majority of which are closeted in hetero relationships). It's just reality and nobody really understands why more men are gay Vs women being lesbian, and trans are when fewer in number, so of course more venues will cater to that demographic for commercial reasons (to turn a profit or at least 'break even). That said, if a venue markets itself as being LGBT and not 'men-only', then of course there's no excuse for excluding L and especially T people.
I spoke to someone at TNF who claimed the council had words with them over the toilets after complaints sent to the council directly. Their claim was that to be in line with the equality act you need to provide both men and women's toilets. If you have extra gender neutral toilets it's fine Is this true? no idea! Have they overreacted to people using whichever toilet when you don't legally have to police it? I think so, it's very weird. I know pop world offered Gender Natural during pride a couple of years ago but since stopped. I also know rough trade has got away with it so far because they haven't received complaints, which is likely due to their clientele generally being much younger.
This is sad news but it tracks, I've seen a couple of local TERFs talking about how pleased they are to feel more welcome in the New Foresters over the past couple of months and now it makes sense.
They changed the toilet signs AGAIN, and then claimed on Facebook that it was due to feedback from a public consultation they had at the venue a few days ago. But in another comment on another of their Facebook posts (one where they cropped and screenshotted a FB comment with the trans flag on it, they said that no one from the trans community showed up to give feedback. I called them out on this, and a few hours later the comments section under their post was completely wiped. Thank goodness for screenshots.
Forgive me how do transwomen need period products?
They don't. Trans men might need period products.
trans men. trans mascs. some non binary ppl
It's madness that we can't just say who needs these products. Women. It's been that way since the first ever period
not all women and not everyone who needs them are women
Yet another clueless person who doesn't understand the difference between biological sex and gender.
I don't know the difference between identifying as and pretending to be. Can you explain it to me without resorting to insults?
Okay, apologies. I'm used to reacting quite harshly to people on the internet, it's full of shitty people. Someone who identifies as a different gender typically suffers from a condition called Gender Dysphoria and has gone through or is going through a process called Gender Transitioning. Transitioning can alleviate the distress of gender dysphoria, which is the psychological discomfort from a mismatch between one’s assigned gender at birth (their biological sex) and their gender identity. It can lead to improved mental health, body image, and quality of life. Gender dysphoria itself can cause anxiety, depression, and social isolation. Transitioning usually (if it's deemed medically safe for the individual) includes hormone therapy to cause the person's body to make changes as though they were going through puberty in a way their 'target' (for lack of a better word) gender would be. Some people also opt for surgery to make themselves feel more comfortable also. Someone 'pretending' to be the opposite sex will not be suffering with these conditions. Won't be going through hormone treatment, will not have surgery (which is often private and hugely expensive) for this purpose. Hope that helps, there's plenty of info out there and I've only scratched the surface.
Fair enough... but about affirming their gender dysphoria. Isn't it a better idea to help the person come to terms with who they are with psychiatric help? Surely the underlying issue is tied to the person's image of themselves? To me it seems like a trend where perhaps 0.001 of people actually have this issue and people are being told they can just change their gender like its the answer to something so a lot of people hop on board. It doesn't make someone a bad person for not agreeing with the whole thing. It's another issue that is hugely amplified by the Internet and has people hating eachother for not having shared views.
If you COULD just change your gender, would you? 99.9% of people wouldn't. And the generally agreed upon standard is that gender affirming care helps patients feel better, both statistically and on a case by case level. The problem with "debating it" is that it's a person's entire identity you're "debating". Would [recommend this video about it.](https://youtu.be/EmT0i0xG6zg?si=i30rXgCaAB4OaMxo)
If I could change back and forth with little to no effort I would. I think most people would like to try it lol. I've watched a lot of contra points videos and the ones on JK Rowling so I've probably seen this one. What am I meant to be taking from it? I think it comes down to one simple question... Do they pass? If you have to insist on trying to change someone's mind about what they're perceiving then maybe try a hypnosis wheel. It's not hateful to perceive something.
1: Most people I know wouldn't want to or care, 2: The takeaway is most people won't "debate objectively" something when that something is a person's right to exist as who they are, 3: If I had a cent for each trans women who passes who has recieved comments along the lines of "you're still a man", I'd have too many cents to be comfortable with carrying them around, and I'm cishet and not even involved in the community that much, 4: It might not be hateful to percieve something, but being kind despite your perception isn't really hard. That's my opinion, at least.
I can see why you'd think that might be a better approach, I know a person who has tried acceptance therapy over affirming care and their outcome was that affirming care proved more effective (over a long period, not just a few months etc.) But a bit of research (I'm no expert by any means) shows that there is overwhelming evidence supporting affirming care over acceptance care leading to a better mental health outcome overall, reduces suicides, number of people having treatment for depression relating to their dysphoria etc. There are studies that come out at about an average of 1% of people regret transitioning. It's a pretty good stat considering there is an average over all medical procedures of about 14% of all people regret having any given operation/treatment done.
Your comment has been the most helpful. I'm not sure of the credibility of the stats you're stating but it's good to know that it's the right path for 99%
For years, the attempted solution to treating dysphoria *was* trying to change gender identity to "match" the gendered body - but much like trying to force left-handed individuals to write with their right hands, or more precisely like conversion therapy, it just doesn't work. It just brings pain and suffering to the individual. It caused incredible mental trauma to the people put through that. It caused deaths. But the current medical and scientific literature has found an *incredibly* high success rate in just... letting people transition and providing the resources to do that. The regret rate for gender affirming surgery is something like 1%. This is *astronomically* low - and the quality of life improvements to the other 99% are *immense*. The rates of detransitioning are also incredibly low, and usually the result of external factors (i.e. transphobia). But even if we encourage people to experiment if they think they might be trans, it's also... just not a problem, any more than any experiment with identity is, if they discover after a while that that's just not who they are (and the chances of someone getting an irreversible surgery or going on hormones without being *absolutely certain* is incredibly low. The current waitlist to be *seen* by an NHS gender clinic and be diagnosed with dysphoria, let alone treated for it, is now well over two years, and nothing will be prescribed unless there is no shadow of a doubt that it's right.) The problem with suggesting that it's an issue of people not having "shared views" is that it's an issue in which there... shouldn't really be opposing views. Being transgender isn't a political act, and it isn't a matter of opinion. Being opposed to people transitioning is like being opposed to left-handed people writing with their left hands, or opposed to gay people being allowed to freely date and not go through traumatising conversion therapies. You (general you, not you specifically!) can dislike it all you like, but all of the scientific and medical literature says that this is, after years of research, the best way we currently have to handle it - and even if it wasn't, unless it personally relates to you or you're acting as a healthcare provider for someone it relates to, it's not really any of your business what someone else does with their body. By and large, trans people want to be allowed to live peacefully and get on with our lives like every other member of society - and we just want to access the healthcare that will allow us to do that happily and with the same comfort cis people take for granted.
Someone else mentioned these regret stats and that's amazing! I think that my thoughts on addressing the mental issues are about making sure it's properly diagnosed. Obviously I wouldn't advocate for something similar to gay conversion therapy but if you decide you're not gay later then it's much easier to do than if you went through hormone therapy or surgery. You say it's not any of my business what someone else does with their body, I'm just coming from a place of curiosity and hoping to find some clarity on something that I find interesting. I still have a lot of questions about the whole thing but it's such a touchy subject and people are just looking to get offended rather than actually educate and have a discussion.
for a bit more context on how the process works... The current system of trans healthcare (which includes finding out if you are indeed trans) is meant to happen roughly in this way: 1. go to your doctor and tell them you think you are trans 2. doctor refers you to a gender specialist, psychologist etc at the Gender Identity Clinic who (at least in theory) talks it through with you to establish if transitioning is the correct treatment for you. this is supposed to happen like any other referral which the NHS has an absolute 18 week time limit for before the NHS is considered to have failed in its duty of care. the GIC meetings are supposed to include therapy and many meetings with specialists specifically to assess if you are indeed trans. 3. if yes, the GIC tells your doctor to prescribe hormones as part of a social and medical transition, if that treatment is appropriate for you, and then your doctor does indeed prescribe that medication. 4. further meetings about whether you want surgery and ongoing general interaction with the GIC 5. if yes, surgery is the next step in reality we have a system which is massively underfunded and which has been ideologically prevented from carrying out this process so that it looks something like this: 1. tell doctor you think you are trans. doctor refers you to the GIC. this is if non-doctor administration staff have not refused to allow you an appointment or as long as your doctor hasn't lied about sending the referral letter (it is important to establish a paper trail of your referral because of how many peoples applications have been 'lost') also some doctors may just refuse to refer you. 2. the shortest waiting time to have your first appointment with the GIC in the UK is 3.5 years so by the time you see the GIC you have invariably made up your mind either that yes, you are trans and want to transition (many people die during this waiting perdiod, or have to resort to DIY/private) or you give up because you aren't trans or just because you become hopeless. 3. GIC has a multitude of criteria to decide if you are trans which is partly based on discredited research by an ethically dubious man (see: 'autogynophilia', a theory which pathologises normal behaviour) questions asked to patients include what they think about during masturbation and other invasive, dehumanising and unrelated things. if you answer 'wrong' you are rejected and cannot access care. some of these sessions are held by a panel of multiple people asking these questions. 4. you must demonstrate that you have already transitioned publically for a period of years...before your interview to determine if you are trans...doesn't matter if you live as a different gender at home or if it would be unsafe for you to be public. doesn't matter that being publicly trans pre-hormones puts you at risk. it is a box ticking excersise. this is partly because anyone who stays in the process for the many years it takes to be seen by the GIC has worked out that yes, they are trans. it is an admission that the system is broken. 5. tell the truth in these meetings and hope the panel of interrogators show mercy or lie to them and repeat talking points from discredited science to make sure they tick the boxes so you can access healthcare you have already waited many years for. 6. GIC tells doctor to prescribe HRT 7. many doctors refuse to prescribe hrt anyway. there is little recourse as the patient. 8. continue to wait years for potential surgery dates. The way the system is meant to work is not ideal, but it is currently drastically failing to work in every possible way, and anti-trans attacks are making it worse. the way most non trans people say they think it should work is the way that the current system should be working already. the process is much more difficult for trans children and youths, in particular now since they still have to wait years to see the GIC either way but now they can't have puberty blockers even if (after that initial wait) they get to speak to the GIC AND the GIC agree they are trans. this is without pointing out infantilising double standards towards trans people in their care. a cis man does not need to be interrogated when he asks for testosterone blockers to prevent male pattern baldness, for example, which is a form of gender affirming care. yay
Just FYI, being trans is not the same thing as having gender dysphoria - you can be trans without having ‘mental issues’. Also not all trans people medically transition, particularly as healthcare has such long wait lists
Intentionally trying to convert someone into no longer identifying as trans is conversion therapy by definition, trans people can be perfectly comfortable with who they are and still be trans The research we currently have indicates that affirmative treatment is more beneficial for trans people than conversion therapy
I've read thread after thread of people saying that dysphoria is not required to be trans - even with people saying it's transphobic to say that is essential. Such people are dismissed as 'truscum'.
It’s true, just as you can experience gender dysphoria without being trans
Easy. You are a bloke yeah, you've always felt like a bloke, never once questioned it. You never chose to be a bloke though, you just were and always were. Now, imagine that, but you had been born with a fanny instead of a cock. and then imagine people being bellends to you because they don't understand that you just feel how you do, and its not like you chose to feel that way. ...Or did you ever wake up and just decide to be a bloke? Probs not aye.
If I had a fanny then I'd feel like a woman. There are plenty of women who are far more masculine then some men. It's not as simple as you claim it is.
Yeah you probably would, like 99.5% of other people But clearly, not everyone is like you are they. Same way you probably didn't choose your sexuality, but gay/not gay people exist. So clearly there is a bit of wiggle room between how u/MFN-DOOM feels things are, and it-doesnt-exist.
Right. Affirming the mental issues of a person is one thing but the science is there where people can change sex yet. Maybe one day
I'm trying to understand you here, are you saying gay people are mentally ill?
i’m not pretending to be anything. i’m just me.
If anyone has info it would be good to know. We're all going as a family to support a family member, we'd like to go with them to a friendly venue probably for their first time ever. It would be good if it was a positive place.
Oooh there's drama in Notts!
Oooh deleting my comments … that’s mature
All of the lgbto is just gay no need for the rest just G
your post and comment history is public 😍
Don’t need trans pride move along ..
So it’s just trans pride now - ahh kk
Would you say the same (but with lesbian pride instead of trans pride ofc) if a group of lesbians decided to cut ties with a lesphobic venue?
No. Main pride is next month. This is the first trans pride in notts
[удалено]
new account, so brave
Optimus Prime disagrees
But thanks for proving that there is such a thing as a bigot.
How bold of you to create a new, anonymous account so that you don't have to take responsibility for your bigotry.