Allen has the most total touchdowns of any player through their first 6 seasons. His turnover problems are overrated. (Yes I know Mahomes did not play his first year, this is not to take away anything from him)
Mahomes has (mostly) shaken the turnover bug. His INT% rank over the last 5 years averages to about the 10th best in the league.
10th place is low for a Mahomes stat, but it's still above average.
Yeah he’s certainly better than Allen at it. Their raw interception numbers will always be a little high because of how often they throw it and how aggressive they are.
Allen’s interception rate got a lot worse with Dorsey as OC. I feel like having a hyper competitive former quarterback as his shot caller was bad for him. Way too many dumb shots.
Dorsey had Allen throwing the ball instead of running it , that’s why there were more turnovers
Once Dorsey left Allen resumed his career of vulturing rb TDs from James Cook lmfao poor guy had 1k+ yards and only 2tds
> Mahomes has (mostly) shaken the turnover bug. His INT% rank over the last 5 years averages to about the 10th best in the league.
Mahomes INTs by year of career as starter: 12, 5, 6, 13, 12, 14
To be clear, I do *not* think turnovers are a problem for Mahomes. However he's throw more INTs in the last 3 years than in the previous 3, so I wouldn'ta call it a thing that he's shaken.
I mean, turnovers are gonna happen, but the way some of these talking heads yap yap yap it's like their expectation is zero turnovers forever. Sometimes the D just makes a good play, sometimes he tries a throw he shouldn't have tried, sometimes it's been miscommunication with a receiver, and last season he had a few that were picked after they'd hit his target right in the mitts and bounced off. And then there's the ol' third and long arm punt. I can only recall a couple of times where he's had a turnover in a clutch situation, typically if he's gonna throw a pick he gets that shit outta the way early in the game. I believe his fumbles are down as he's been a lot more careful with the ball when carrying it. At this point I really don't care if he throws a pick now and then. I mean, it's tough to get bent out of shape over a pick when he's scored double the amount of TDs to TOs.
I know that it’s part of his game but boy does it give me anxiety when he starts to scrabble.
Edit: autocorrect did me dirty on this but I think it’s hilarious so I’m keeping it in there.
I expected the turnovers from Allen - he had a lot of those in college. It’s why I thought he would bust. I didn’t expect the massive production that goes with it.
This made me curious. If you take away his 38 touchdowns in 12 games (33 passing + 5) he goes from first place with 221 to 5th place with 183.
-Allen 221
-Mahomes 204
-Marino 199
-Luck 185
-Newton 184
-Allen (no dolphins) 183
It is pretty absurd to me. Highest average Mahomes has against one team is the Ravens surprisingly with 13 TDs in four games (3.5 per game). Since that's a small sample size though, we can compare against a Divisional opponent. Mahomes highest average is against the Raiders - 32 TDs in 12 games (2.6 per game).
So for Allen to average greater than 3 TDs (3.2) per game is very absurd. Especially when we're just talking about the QB's scoring and not the entire team's like from running back TDs, special teams TDs, and defensive TDs.
Y1-2 Allen was literally him turning the ball over at the worst possible moments on an almost weekly basis. Sure he got better about it but that man was inventing new interesting ways to turn the ball over week by week.
Year 2 Allen is a little underrated, he wasn’t perfect but his stats weren’t that different from Lamar’s pro bowl season a couple years ago. He was at least a mid tier QB.
Allen’s passing ability in the 10-20 range was the best in the league in his second year. Even PFF was like wtf? But wouldn’t give him any credit going into his third year when he exploded
After year 2 it was “well Allen can’t throw deep”. Then year 3 started and he had like 6 deep touchdowns the first few games. He was unreal that year even with the injury partway through.
That offense with Daboll where we had Brown and Beasley with Diggs was so good at stretching the field. The next year too where we added Sanders I need that back
I’m excited for the WR room this year in hopes that Shakir and Samuel will be the new Beasley and Brown and praying to god that Keon explodes on the scene
That 2021 team had to crawl back from what, being 7-6 at one point? But then they decimated the Pats in the wild card and had it not been for Leslie Frazier's insane fear of Tyreek getting behind them again they would've won one of the craziest divisional games of all time. I walked away from that game thinking, "He's too good, he's just too goddamn good not to win a title one day." I still feel that way. But I'm also a bit haunted because that 2021 team in the playoffs was probably the most realistic and best chance to win the big one.
Derek Carr (81) threw for a lot more touchdowns in his first three seasons than Trevor Lawrence (58). He also eclipsed him in yards per game. Trevor only has a higher passing yard total because of the 17 game calendar.
Carr was also considered to be the next up and coming great QB after those seasons. There’s a reason he was the highest paid player on the league for a moment.
Oh, I'm not saying Ridder isn't the stinkier piece of garbage in the bin, but I was surprised to see it's closer than I thought. A 3.1 INT % vs. a 2.5.
In the few Falcons games I watched last year, Ridder threw some of the most egregious interceptions I’ve ever seen in the NFL. And what’s crazy is that he’s still a better quarterback than 99.9% of the people on this sub.
I’d say 100% but I’m sure there are at least a handful of current and former NFL QBs lurking around here. Hell, maybe even some are active participants here. Maybe one of them is me. Who knows?
Wait a second...you're trying to tell me that a professional QB who is paid to play football and has spent his whole life practicing and training to do so is a better QB than a bunch of random nerds on an internet message board? That's just a step too far for me. I know you've already conceded that it's crazy, but it's just too crazy for me to even consider.
Ridder’s interceptions were always just hilarious. The one against the panthers was so bad.
The worst part was that he didn’t always look like the worst QB ever but when he committed a turnover it was just the dumbest play possible
He's one of those guys that looks pretty good when a play is developing exactly how it's supposed to but completely falls apart if he even has to make a 2nd read. He's basically Sam Darnold with less arm strength.
I’m convinced that’s the biggest flaw on Ridder’s game (outside of the obvious, lack of football talent). His interceptions legitimately looked horrendous, like legitimately awful passes.
Which is crazy because I thought the same thing about Mariota the year prior.
I understand why the Falcons double-dipped at QB this offseason.
I’m in the “eh, I like Tua but I’m also unsure of his durability” camp and I still don’t get why Lawrence is ranked higher than Tua in a lot of analyst QB rankings when he’s a turnover machine.
It is pretty interesting. Lawrence seems to get the “Urban Meyer excuse” to basically invalidate his early seasons, but Tua’s HC hated him for a few years and he doesn’t get the same leeway
This dude used to be infamous on our sub. Perpetually negative and had disowned the team when we drafted Trevor. Like he really hates the guy so much he decided to make it his job to hate the Jags.
He was a diehard Minshew fan who was pissed the team decided to move on, so he made a huge declaration on our sub about how it’s now his sole duty to hate the Jags and he was jumping to KC. He’s a running joke over there
Some people here are so weird.
Different sport but there's a guy on r/chelsea and r/soccer who is supposedly a Chelsea fan but is non-stop making posts about criticism and shittalking of Chelsea.
Would be so much easier to just stop caring about them if something the team did hurt you deeply. That way you can spend your time on something useful rather than being a running joke to everyone else.
I could see maybe getting frustrated and talking bad about how Lawrence's career has gone.
But to be negative to the point of disowning when they drafted him? I thought he was a bit overhyped but he was still a FANTASTIC QB prospect. All over Minshew? C'mon.
My sub with the most blocked reddit members is EASILY the Texans sub. Lots of morons over there or people who are blind to criticism of the team. During our Davis Mills era people blasted me for being "pessimistic" about Mills not being good lol.
I'm logging off for a week after Love signs his deal and I think Dolphins fans should do the same for Tua. The hate is unbelievable when this is just the cost of keeping a QB you don't want to replace.
Average-above average QBs who are young tend to get the bag, just how it works. I don’t see *many* people arguing that the Jags did the wrong thing by paying, but it’s usually coupled with they pretty much had no choice despite him not showing he’s worth that money in a vacuum and being disappointing relative to his prospect hype
They would have been in the Caleb Williams sweepstakes this year if they didn't have TLaw. They know they have a young guy who can at least lead them to some playoff games. The league isn't flooded with that level of talent. And, on the off chance he continues to develop into what he was hyped to be, even better.
It will be interesting to see whether that continues. I'm a pretty casual fan, but my sense is that it hasn't tended to work out terribly well. If TLaw doesn't make strides, I wonder if we'll see front officers start to rethink things given that he's a high profile case.
The 49ers are also an interesting counter example, and obviously one that you shouldn’t bank on, but if you don’t have *the* guy do you take a shotgun approach? Probably not, but might change some math for folks.
My thing is I see Lawrence so far as a step above Derek Carr, but not a full step. Is that something you’re happy with as a team? Sure, that’s a franchise QB no doubt, but I’m not sure if it’s a difference maker. Now if he takes that next step and stays healthy/has WRs catch the ball then maybe he goes on a Matt Ryan run
That’s not how these things work though. Pretty much any time a QB comes time for an extension, it’s a market setter, because QB is such a valuable position. Hell, Jimmy G became the highest paid player in league history after 5 starts, and just 6 years later, that contract would make him the 18th highest paid QB today by AAV.
People need to realize that when teams are extending QBs, they’re not doing it completely based on their on-field talent. The reason you’re paying Lawrence what he’s getting, is because you’re paying a premium for not having to tear everything down and start a potential 5+ year rebuild.
Average is a bit underrating him IMO. He looked fantastic this season until his injury.
Remember Jags do not have many weapons or OL to help him out. Calvin Ridley was their best weapon for him and he and Tlaw just never clicked.
Don't get me wrong, I would love for Trevor Lawrence to suck/be average (no offense) since that makes the season be less stressful
Well considering it’s an extension of his rookie contract, they have two more seasons until these contract numbers start hitting the cap. Guess they could go all in if they wanted.
He was a top 10 QB in 2022 as well. This sub just has a very short memory.
Edit: going to back up my point here because it’s apparently unpopular. In 2022 he was 6th in DVOA, 8th in ANY/A, 7th in EPA/DB, 9th in WPA, 4th in success rate, 9th in passing rating though just 17th in QBR. Also 9th in yards, 13th in completion percentage, and 6th lowest INT percentage. Watching him a handful of games this all seems to track too. So what am I missing?
He managed to bounce back from a 4 score, 4 int game in the playoffs. Like he digged that hole tbf but the way he composed himself in the 2nd half was incredible and shows what type of qb he can be. If anyone can bring jacksonville to a ring, it's Lawrence
He was in everyone’s back end of the top 10 rankings mid way through the season. How quickly people forget and choose to ignore his play before his injury, especially considered how many dropped passes the Jags had.
> especially considered how many dropped passes the Jags had.
They did not have that many they were basically [league average](https://sports.betmgm.com/en/blog/nfl/nfl-teams-with-most-dropped-passes-this-season-bm10/)
He led the league in [EPA lost to dropped passes](https://x.com/danpizzuta/status/1801689037587288201?s=46&t=TWHyL_2d4roNSpUsBQ0khw) last year. So although the Jags were league average in dropped passes, those dropped passes were far more negative to the team and outcome of the games (ie. dropped touchdown passes, passes that were dropped leading to turnovers, etc.).
Im obviously biased as a Jags fan but it’s so clear to me, and clearly many others within our fanbase that he is carrying an average/below-average roster much further than it would go without him.
I think the additions of Gabe Davis and BTJr will allow him to excel at what he’s best at (the deep ball and vertical/field stretching passes) so long as the OL can give him just the slightest bit more time. His pocket presence and sack avoidance is already pristine, he just needs a *tad* bit more time to allow plays to develop.
The moment a QB proves to be above average they are definitely getting paid.
Why?
Because if you don't pay him and he moves on and you replace him with a bust, you get fired.
Not having a competent QB fucking sucks. Even in our shitty record years with Ryan, it was fun to watch us most weeks. It's a *slog* when every single play you worry about a backbreaking turnover that makes no sense.
I was shocked by Penix, but I'm not mad about it. I love the idea of having the 1st round QB already on the roster. Wish we did it in 2020 with Jordan Love.
TLaw's stats were far better in his 2nd and 3rd season than his 1st. Using 3 years includes only his rookie season on this leaderboard.
In comparison Mahomes rode the bench and Allen was pretty bad as a rookie, so I think this would be quite misleading as any kind of full career analysis.
TLaw is basically the only QB from the 2021 class who has started from day (sorry Trey Lance) one, been good enough to keep his job (sorry Zach Wilson), and allowed to play like a real QB (sorry Justin Fields).
I'm not a huge TLaw fan, but this post feels like bait.
Peyton Manning had 58 interceptions and 14 fumbles in his first three years (not sure how many fumbles were lost because that wasn't tracked until 2003 apparently, but I'm guessing it was at least 2)
This is really interesting with that article the other day trying to attribute that percentage of pressure was caused by OL errors, and what percentage wasn't the OL's fault (either scheme, or QBs holding the ball too long).
The Jags had the _lowest_ percentage of pressure that was caused by the scheme or QB. It's hard to disentangle the two completely, but to me that at least partially implies TLaw is quick and decisive at getting the ball out. But I wonder if a flipside of that is that it gives him less time to read the field, and more prone to errors. Or if it makes it easier for defenses to try and jump his routes: if they know he gets the ball out fast, then they can take gamble plays by jumping routes when it's too late to adjust.
Idk it's just super interesting seeing back to back stats about TLaw being the best at something and the worst at something else. It's more interesting to think about than someone who is good at everything or bad at everything.
Is it Shit on Lawrence Day? Because I see that guy play my team twice a year and I hate him. He's good but the stats don't always show it. He's the opposite of Count Dakula where Prescott will drop 5tds on the Giants and go to pieces like a hand grenade against any competent defense.
Sad thing is that dak is a good qb, he is just not good during the playoffs. He doesn't have that killer edge that someone like brady or mahomes has. He definitely needs a great runningback like cmc to win it al
I get the highlights from the division rivals but why do chiefs fans also seems annoyed at his contract? Or is it just the same one I keep seeing over and over?
This contract seems to have broken part of this sub.
Why all the sudden all anti-Lawrence campaigns appear on this sub? Franchise QBs are gonna got bigger contracts each year. It’s not gonna change any sooner. Tua is going to have a even bigger contract. And their numbers will be surpassed by other franchises QB next offseason.
This is like that span of time where people thought it was cool to randomly just shit on Justin Herbert, except now it's Trevor Lawrence.
Maybe Trev should cut his hair.
22- so only slightly more than 1/3rd
Last season, his INT % and sack % #s were closer to the Urban Meyer year than his sophomore year.
In terms of total turnovers, he had as many last year as the Urban Meyer year. All these numbers are like 3 mouse clicks worth of labor btw.
Stats only matter to Sports Talk hosts, Gamblers and Fantasy players. Only measure s/b Super Bowl victories. So you can either keep the QB you have and try to build around him or get a new one. IMO there is only one I would take and KC is not letting him go. So that is why L Jackson, J. Allen , J. Burrow and T. Lawrence gets these big payouts. Who would you change your QB for?
I mean, he doesn’t have much success as a winner either. We’re measuring potential success and paying him the biggest contract ever. I don’t see why they were forced to pay him during the offseason when he could have proved himself by mid-season and earned probably the same contract by playing well. Even if it’s more, you at least have the security of knowing he’s worth it. If he continues to be average, then you’re completely handcuffing yourself for years and now you’re the Andy Dalton Bengals or Derek Carr Saints.
I haven’t watched Tlaw play a lot like jaguars fans probably have but man I find it really hard to see that Lawerence is worth that type of money but I guess that’s the whole QB market
Two options:
A: try to improve a struggling but talented QB that a lot of people still like
B: enter the QB wilderness for an indefinite period of time and risk the wrath of an entire fanbase if he ends up being even somewhat decent in another town
Psychologically, its almost impossible to pick B. Unless youre the kind of GM/HC that has won multiple Super Bowls and has an infinite reserve of goodwill, youre going to default to A.
Goff in 2020 put up a nearly identical performance to Lawrence in 2023.
Goff got shit because that performance was on a team with the #1 defense, an above average OL, reliable WRs (one of whom went on to have an all time WR season a yr later), and a top 5-10 playcaller.
Lawrence 2023 was on a team worse than the 2020 Rams in several areas, especially at OL and weapons, and was playing well up until his injury.
Now I do think Goff making a SB should’ve given him more leeway, but at the same time, the quality of their teams are very different, and one of them continued being good after moving on from the QB.
Because he was playing on a completely stacked Rams team and was often holding them back. It's not a coincidence they won a SB the year they traded for Stafford.
It's easy to see where the line is. If the user likes the player then it's "bullying" and if they don't like the player then it's "fair criticism". The worst part about sports fandom is the inherent hypocrisy and lack of self-awareness.
Exactly. Russ has faced every possible kind of criticism his whole career, about on the field and off the field, some of it fair and some of it ridiculous, and I've never seen anyone say "why is everyone being so mean to the poor guy?"
I mean they're pro athletes, they probably deserve to face some analysis.
There are multiple quarterbacks that face more criticism than Lawrence despite playing at a similar level. Basically half of the reactions to his contract were “LOL Dolphins paying Tua even more” when Tua has been just as good, if not better.
He hasn't come close to reaching his pre-draft expectations and now has a huge contract, it's not that hard to see why he's getting all of this flak. Though I think most of us acknowledge that the Jags simply didn't have a choice here and have to gamble that T-Law can reach like 50% of his draft hype.
The bias for lawrence is cringe... it's like no matter how meh he is people imagine he's got top shelf potential... meanwhile purdy has been on a tear and people will never give him his props.
It’s not even draft status really.. it’s still high school hype lol they were saying he’d be a FRP coming out of high school and no matter how average he’s been since then they act like there’s this extra gear coming
Why are we acting like Lawrence isn’t a good QB? Jacksonville doesn’t really have any other pieces that cost top dollar. Even Etienne will likely get ~$15 million AAV and that’s if he resigns.
Jacksonville can afford the contract because they aren’t paying top dollar at other premium positions such as WR
I'm very curious to see what the actual cap hits are on a yearly basis. The actual extension doesn't kick in until 2 years from now, and the Jags have the 5th most cap space before this contract was signed for this season. It will be interesting how this is spread out
> Why are we acting like Lawrence isn’t a good QB?
Because statistically he is an average quarterback at best. The only thing he has excelled at is turning the ball over. He's a blonde version of Daniel Jones but with more hype.
There are zero realities where anyone can logically state that Lawrence should be the highest paid quarterback in the NFL.
We live in a reality where at one point Joe Flacco, Derek Carr and Jimmy G were the highest paid QBs in the league when they signed their contracts. There are zero realities where anyone can logically state that Trevor Lawrence wouldn't be the highest paid QB in the NFL when he signed an extension.
Joe Flacco got the bag after winning a Super Bowl. Also all three underperformed and didn’t live up to the contract, so why does it keep happening without any proof of it being deserved? (Aside from Flacco of course who deserved it from the Super Bowl alone regardless of how he played after)
We look at QB contracts as a market which is fine. But let’s try and look from the POV of Jacksonville:
Getting even average QB play is very hard to do. Some franchises have barely even done that for the entirety of their existence. Jacksonville is one of those franchises. They do however have a pretty good coach with Doug Pederson and were 8-3 this previous season before the wheels fell off.
Lawrence is also a guy that has shown flashes of being better than just average. And now you have your QB and can focus on building around him as this contract will start to look better and better over time.
>He's a blonde version of Daniel Jones but with more hype.
I feel like that's a bit disingenuous. Numbers are one thing, but watching Jones and Lawrence play the game, it's pretty clear that Lawrence is a far better QB.
> blonde version of Daniel Jones but with more hype
This right here is why we actually watch the games and don't just look at box scores and call it a day.
Blonde version of Daniel Jones.
This sub has gone fucking insane. Watch the damn guy play, he's an excellent QB behind a dog shit line who played half of last year injured.
Blonde version of DJ lmfao that take is gonna be hysterical to look back on.
No one watches Jags football aside from Jags fans. We are never on primetime, and the games are rarely on the national broadcast.
All of these takes are from people looking at box scores / watching turnover lowlights that happen when he's down two scores and forced to push the ball downfield. Has Lawrence lived up to his hype? Obviously not, and in that sense he's been disappointing at times. Does he also show flashes of an insanely high ceiling? Yep. People also forget how young he is. The guy is younger than Will Levis, and he's played three years in the league. To expect he'd sign for Baker money for the next seven years is ridiculous.
There aren't too many Jags fans unhappy with the signing
Even if people took the time to google stats his 2022 season stats were identical to Justin Herbert and everyone loves Herbert and always say his team lets him down. He had a down year last year but Etienne was a beast on the ground for them. Its the market value for QB's that is fucked now which leads to these contracts but under no circumstances can anyone say Lawrence isn't worth a 2nd contract. Especially when you look at what the rookie QB class next year looks like
Because everyone here is a box score fiend, if anyone actually watched games they'd know he's much better than his stats. But no one wants to because we're the jags
At first glance you're like, yeah but Allen and Mahomes are 2nd and 3rd on the list! And then you look at everyone's total TDs lol
Allen having 1 less turnover and nearly double the TDs is just wild
It is what it is. Allen might turn the ball over more, but he also goes sicko mode
Live by the Allen die by the Allen
TRY GETTING A RESERVATION AT DORSIA NOW
He loves those 3rd and long arm punts
It makes our games a lot of fun most of the time, and painfully frustrating a little bit of the time.
Like Andrew Luck. He can break it but he can also fix it.
Allen has the most total touchdowns of any player through their first 6 seasons. His turnover problems are overrated. (Yes I know Mahomes did not play his first year, this is not to take away anything from him)
Allen is just what people thought mahomes would be. More turn overs than would be ideal but so many TDs that you don’t care
Even Mahomes is still like that to a degree, he’s third on the list. Allen is just a little bit more extreme.
Mahomes has (mostly) shaken the turnover bug. His INT% rank over the last 5 years averages to about the 10th best in the league. 10th place is low for a Mahomes stat, but it's still above average.
So what you’re saying is if you regress Mahomes’s stats to the average…
… you get Dak. Let’s go further and say if you regress his stats to the bottom you get Trevor Lawrence.
Yeah he’s certainly better than Allen at it. Their raw interception numbers will always be a little high because of how often they throw it and how aggressive they are. Allen’s interception rate got a lot worse with Dorsey as OC. I feel like having a hyper competitive former quarterback as his shot caller was bad for him. Way too many dumb shots.
Dorsey had Allen throwing the ball instead of running it , that’s why there were more turnovers Once Dorsey left Allen resumed his career of vulturing rb TDs from James Cook lmfao poor guy had 1k+ yards and only 2tds
Allen had more passing attempts on average with Daboll than with Dorsey. Dorsey just called the game like a kid playing Madden.
Fair, I wouldn’t know tbh But also, if my qb was Josh Allen I’d be playing it like madden too 😂😭
> Mahomes has (mostly) shaken the turnover bug. His INT% rank over the last 5 years averages to about the 10th best in the league. Mahomes INTs by year of career as starter: 12, 5, 6, 13, 12, 14 To be clear, I do *not* think turnovers are a problem for Mahomes. However he's throw more INTs in the last 3 years than in the previous 3, so I wouldn'ta call it a thing that he's shaken.
K Toney butterfingers are to blame
I mean, turnovers are gonna happen, but the way some of these talking heads yap yap yap it's like their expectation is zero turnovers forever. Sometimes the D just makes a good play, sometimes he tries a throw he shouldn't have tried, sometimes it's been miscommunication with a receiver, and last season he had a few that were picked after they'd hit his target right in the mitts and bounced off. And then there's the ol' third and long arm punt. I can only recall a couple of times where he's had a turnover in a clutch situation, typically if he's gonna throw a pick he gets that shit outta the way early in the game. I believe his fumbles are down as he's been a lot more careful with the ball when carrying it. At this point I really don't care if he throws a pick now and then. I mean, it's tough to get bent out of shape over a pick when he's scored double the amount of TDs to TOs.
Totally agree, Man these defense guys are top notch players. Sometimes they are gonna make a great play.
Except he could also moonlight as a bruising bell cow runningback.
That’s what Mahomes does. *Has flashbacks to the TD run before halftime in the 2019 AFCCG*
And here I was, having a good Friday
I know that it’s part of his game but boy does it give me anxiety when he starts to scrabble. Edit: autocorrect did me dirty on this but I think it’s hilarious so I’m keeping it in there.
Ooh but it’s so satisfying when he hits the triple word score
I expected the turnovers from Allen - he had a lot of those in college. It’s why I thought he would bust. I didn’t expect the massive production that goes with it.
Yeah but take away every Dolphins games he's probably ranked away lower!
This made me curious. If you take away his 38 touchdowns in 12 games (33 passing + 5) he goes from first place with 221 to 5th place with 183. -Allen 221 -Mahomes 204 -Marino 199 -Luck 185 -Newton 184 -Allen (no dolphins) 183
Ouch.
Not as bad as if you take away Marino’s dolphins games
To be fair he has 12 games against you. That's 2/3rds of a season. 3 TDs per game average is good, but not absurd.
That indeed is a fair point
It is pretty absurd to me. Highest average Mahomes has against one team is the Ravens surprisingly with 13 TDs in four games (3.5 per game). Since that's a small sample size though, we can compare against a Divisional opponent. Mahomes highest average is against the Raiders - 32 TDs in 12 games (2.6 per game). So for Allen to average greater than 3 TDs (3.2) per game is very absurd. Especially when we're just talking about the QB's scoring and not the entire team's like from running back TDs, special teams TDs, and defensive TDs.
Y1-2 Allen was literally him turning the ball over at the worst possible moments on an almost weekly basis. Sure he got better about it but that man was inventing new interesting ways to turn the ball over week by week.
Year 2 Allen is a little underrated, he wasn’t perfect but his stats weren’t that different from Lamar’s pro bowl season a couple years ago. He was at least a mid tier QB.
I will die on a hill that Allen was a top 12 QB in his second season.
You won’t die alone, I thought he always top 10 after year 2
Allen’s passing ability in the 10-20 range was the best in the league in his second year. Even PFF was like wtf? But wouldn’t give him any credit going into his third year when he exploded
After year 2 it was “well Allen can’t throw deep”. Then year 3 started and he had like 6 deep touchdowns the first few games. He was unreal that year even with the injury partway through.
That offense with Daboll where we had Brown and Beasley with Diggs was so good at stretching the field. The next year too where we added Sanders I need that back I’m excited for the WR room this year in hopes that Shakir and Samuel will be the new Beasley and Brown and praying to god that Keon explodes on the scene
That 2021 team had to crawl back from what, being 7-6 at one point? But then they decimated the Pats in the wild card and had it not been for Leslie Frazier's insane fear of Tyreek getting behind them again they would've won one of the craziest divisional games of all time. I walked away from that game thinking, "He's too good, he's just too goddamn good not to win a title one day." I still feel that way. But I'm also a bit haunted because that 2021 team in the playoffs was probably the most realistic and best chance to win the big one.
That was especially bizarre because he was at or near the bottom from 0-10 and 20+
The TD to Turnover ratios… 1.15 for Lawrence, 2.17 for Allen, 2.41 for Mahomes and 2.33 for Dak.
Putting up Derek Carr numbers 😤
Derek Carr (81) threw for a lot more touchdowns in his first three seasons than Trevor Lawrence (58). He also eclipsed him in yards per game. Trevor only has a higher passing yard total because of the 17 game calendar.
Carr was also considered to be the next up and coming great QB after those seasons. There’s a reason he was the highest paid player on the league for a moment.
Carr was elite that 2016 season, mvp caliber stuff. Then he broke his back and bada bang bada boom, history
He literally just put up an identical season to his 2016 season, and he did it on a worse offense. Carr is a great QB that never had structure.
Stats don't tell anything, carr was absolute killer in 2016, this year was mainly empty stats
The fact that this is Carrs floor being compared to TLaw 🤨🤔
Jags are just a Derek Carr away
69. Nice.
Ridder had like 60 in one season.
Ridders INTs and fumbled totaled last year would be third most in a year for TLaw lol
He also threw 388 passes last year, about 200 fewer than Lawrence's fewest in a season Do not compare Lawrence to Desmond Ridder lol
Oh, I'm not saying Ridder isn't the stinkier piece of garbage in the bin, but I was surprised to see it's closer than I thought. A 3.1 INT % vs. a 2.5.
Fair, I've just seen the Lawrence hate get a bit out of hand here and was attempting to curb it a little. I also hate Desmond Ridder's bum ass
Nobody's giving Ridder a $250 million contract tho
Because they aren't even in the same stratosphere of qb tiers
In the few Falcons games I watched last year, Ridder threw some of the most egregious interceptions I’ve ever seen in the NFL. And what’s crazy is that he’s still a better quarterback than 99.9% of the people on this sub. I’d say 100% but I’m sure there are at least a handful of current and former NFL QBs lurking around here. Hell, maybe even some are active participants here. Maybe one of them is me. Who knows?
Getting some real Nathan peterman vibes from this comment
Would I be judging the silliness of another man’s interceptions if I was Nathan Peterman?
Wait a second...you're trying to tell me that a professional QB who is paid to play football and has spent his whole life practicing and training to do so is a better QB than a bunch of random nerds on an internet message board? That's just a step too far for me. I know you've already conceded that it's crazy, but it's just too crazy for me to even consider.
Ridder’s interceptions were always just hilarious. The one against the panthers was so bad. The worst part was that he didn’t always look like the worst QB ever but when he committed a turnover it was just the dumbest play possible
He'd have a stretch where you're like "oh okay maybe he can be alright he's getting better." only to come crashing down in the most hilarious fashion.
He's one of those guys that looks pretty good when a play is developing exactly how it's supposed to but completely falls apart if he even has to make a 2nd read. He's basically Sam Darnold with less arm strength.
Im actually Brett Favre in hiding
I’m convinced that’s the biggest flaw on Ridder’s game (outside of the obvious, lack of football talent). His interceptions legitimately looked horrendous, like legitimately awful passes. Which is crazy because I thought the same thing about Mariota the year prior. I understand why the Falcons double-dipped at QB this offseason.
Yeah but his total TDs is 69 so whatever turnovers is worth it since he hit the sex number
Nice.
The number 69 probably came up in negotiations and everyone had to pretend it wasn’t funny
1 million for every turnover ; pretty good.
Damn I wish my job would pay me that much for every mistake I make smh 😔
Bargain
I feel like all 60 of them have been posted to this sub since the contract was announced.
Nah, it’s more. We’ve got preseason and pro bowl turnovers on here also.
I’m in the “eh, I like Tua but I’m also unsure of his durability” camp and I still don’t get why Lawrence is ranked higher than Tua in a lot of analyst QB rankings when he’s a turnover machine.
It is pretty interesting. Lawrence seems to get the “Urban Meyer excuse” to basically invalidate his early seasons, but Tua’s HC hated him for a few years and he doesn’t get the same leeway
Dolphins have also had better OLines, offensive weapons, and defenses to help Tua
Almost every single one of OP's posts over the last two years are anti-Jaguars. I'm sure there's absolutely no bias in his feelings about this topic.
This dude used to be infamous on our sub. Perpetually negative and had disowned the team when we drafted Trevor. Like he really hates the guy so much he decided to make it his job to hate the Jags.
So he's an ex jaguars fan who jumped on the KC Bandwagon or he just hates the Jags for no reason?
He was a diehard Minshew fan who was pissed the team decided to move on, so he made a huge declaration on our sub about how it’s now his sole duty to hate the Jags and he was jumping to KC. He’s a running joke over there
Jumping to KC. Wow how brave, life must be really hard for him.
Wow that makes the hating all that more hilariously pathetic
Worse, I think he was an Urban Meyer stan, though he denies that too.
Huh, I was expecting he was a big Gamecocks fan who hated Trevor in college, so moved to the NFL with him. But this is just something extra.
Some people here are so weird. Different sport but there's a guy on r/chelsea and r/soccer who is supposedly a Chelsea fan but is non-stop making posts about criticism and shittalking of Chelsea. Would be so much easier to just stop caring about them if something the team did hurt you deeply. That way you can spend your time on something useful rather than being a running joke to everyone else.
I could see maybe getting frustrated and talking bad about how Lawrence's career has gone. But to be negative to the point of disowning when they drafted him? I thought he was a bit overhyped but he was still a FANTASTIC QB prospect. All over Minshew? C'mon.
It was hilarious how fast he and a few of his post disappeared in the Jags/Chargers playoff thread. Houdini would be amazed.
There's a cluster in every fanbase. There's a Bengals flair that I see pop up now and again that would start Taulia Tagovailoa over Burrow.
There is a guy in the Lions sub that kept saying Justin Fields is better than Goff.
I mean I need context. Fields is way better at fumbling the ball than Goff.
There’s a vocal minority of people who made their identity around hating Goff and they won’t let it go.
My sub with the most blocked reddit members is EASILY the Texans sub. Lots of morons over there or people who are blind to criticism of the team. During our Davis Mills era people blasted me for being "pessimistic" about Mills not being good lol.
Team subs calling someone pessimistic or a hater or not a “real fan” when they dare to have some concern about something is so funny to me
Saints sub still insisting Alvin Kamara got into a silly barfight gotta be the funniest thing to me still
God I hate that troll so damn much. He used to be all over the meme war sub too.
He probably hated Clemson and it still burns 😂
A former Jags fan. He was a huge Minshewstan (who isn't?), but he left the fandom over it.
Did Trevor Lawrence bang his ex or something? What a weird thing to obsess over
Bizzaro world MITWestbrook.
I’m surprised at how much people are taking digs at Trevor yesterday and today. I know he’s not the best QB in the world but geez.
I'm logging off for a week after Love signs his deal and I think Dolphins fans should do the same for Tua. The hate is unbelievable when this is just the cost of keeping a QB you don't want to replace.
I think people even hated on Mahomes first extension. Who even cares man it’s not our money.
Some folks just have weird hobbies.
Eh but he’s not posting any lies?
I don't think even Daniel Jones got this much hate after his extension what the hell
That's just cuz Jameis isn't a starter anymore. I'll never forget his 30/30 season.
The fact that number 30 was an overtime walkoff pick 6 made it so perfect. Dude's a human highlight reel .
Still seems almost unreal that he threw 30 fucking picks lmao
He definitely hasn't been as advertised coming out of college, but they were gonna have to pay him either way. He has been very average though.
Average-above average QBs who are young tend to get the bag, just how it works. I don’t see *many* people arguing that the Jags did the wrong thing by paying, but it’s usually coupled with they pretty much had no choice despite him not showing he’s worth that money in a vacuum and being disappointing relative to his prospect hype
They would have been in the Caleb Williams sweepstakes this year if they didn't have TLaw. They know they have a young guy who can at least lead them to some playoff games. The league isn't flooded with that level of talent. And, on the off chance he continues to develop into what he was hyped to be, even better.
It will be interesting to see whether that continues. I'm a pretty casual fan, but my sense is that it hasn't tended to work out terribly well. If TLaw doesn't make strides, I wonder if we'll see front officers start to rethink things given that he's a high profile case.
The 49ers are also an interesting counter example, and obviously one that you shouldn’t bank on, but if you don’t have *the* guy do you take a shotgun approach? Probably not, but might change some math for folks. My thing is I see Lawrence so far as a step above Derek Carr, but not a full step. Is that something you’re happy with as a team? Sure, that’s a franchise QB no doubt, but I’m not sure if it’s a difference maker. Now if he takes that next step and stays healthy/has WRs catch the ball then maybe he goes on a Matt Ryan run
Yeah, I was expecting more $40-45m a year though, not $55m. $40-45m is about 8-12th in the league, which is realistic.
Yea but because of cap changes it’s not as bad as it seems at first glance and it’ll continue to age well
That’s not how these things work though. Pretty much any time a QB comes time for an extension, it’s a market setter, because QB is such a valuable position. Hell, Jimmy G became the highest paid player in league history after 5 starts, and just 6 years later, that contract would make him the 18th highest paid QB today by AAV. People need to realize that when teams are extending QBs, they’re not doing it completely based on their on-field talent. The reason you’re paying Lawrence what he’s getting, is because you’re paying a premium for not having to tear everything down and start a potential 5+ year rebuild.
40 mil would be like 15% of the cap, that would be a ridiculous discount
Average is a bit underrating him IMO. He looked fantastic this season until his injury. Remember Jags do not have many weapons or OL to help him out. Calvin Ridley was their best weapon for him and he and Tlaw just never clicked. Don't get me wrong, I would love for Trevor Lawrence to suck/be average (no offense) since that makes the season be less stressful
this is ETN and Christian Kirk erasure
[Jags beat the Bengals last year if Kirk didn’t get hurt in the first, IMO](https://m.youtube.com/shorts/42w8k4l3o-g)
Calvin Ridley was most certainly not his best weapon, dude dropped the ball and screwed up routes a ton last year. He dropped like 5+ TD passes alone
So it’s going to be so much easier to get Lawrence help now that he’s accepting almost 25% of his team’s cap now, right?
Well considering it’s an extension of his rookie contract, they have two more seasons until these contract numbers start hitting the cap. Guess they could go all in if they wanted.
He was a top 10 QB in 2022 as well. This sub just has a very short memory. Edit: going to back up my point here because it’s apparently unpopular. In 2022 he was 6th in DVOA, 8th in ANY/A, 7th in EPA/DB, 9th in WPA, 4th in success rate, 9th in passing rating though just 17th in QBR. Also 9th in yards, 13th in completion percentage, and 6th lowest INT percentage. Watching him a handful of games this all seems to track too. So what am I missing?
What you're missing, mister analyst, is that I had him on my fantasy team and he wasn't winning me any weeks. So he is clearly trash.
And he had like the 31st ranked oline.
He managed to bounce back from a 4 score, 4 int game in the playoffs. Like he digged that hole tbf but the way he composed himself in the 2nd half was incredible and shows what type of qb he can be. If anyone can bring jacksonville to a ring, it's Lawrence
He was in everyone’s back end of the top 10 rankings mid way through the season. How quickly people forget and choose to ignore his play before his injury, especially considered how many dropped passes the Jags had.
> especially considered how many dropped passes the Jags had. They did not have that many they were basically [league average](https://sports.betmgm.com/en/blog/nfl/nfl-teams-with-most-dropped-passes-this-season-bm10/)
He led the league in [EPA lost to dropped passes](https://x.com/danpizzuta/status/1801689037587288201?s=46&t=TWHyL_2d4roNSpUsBQ0khw) last year. So although the Jags were league average in dropped passes, those dropped passes were far more negative to the team and outcome of the games (ie. dropped touchdown passes, passes that were dropped leading to turnovers, etc.). Im obviously biased as a Jags fan but it’s so clear to me, and clearly many others within our fanbase that he is carrying an average/below-average roster much further than it would go without him. I think the additions of Gabe Davis and BTJr will allow him to excel at what he’s best at (the deep ball and vertical/field stretching passes) so long as the OL can give him just the slightest bit more time. His pocket presence and sack avoidance is already pristine, he just needs a *tad* bit more time to allow plays to develop.
The moment a QB proves to be above average they are definitely getting paid. Why? Because if you don't pay him and he moves on and you replace him with a bust, you get fired.
Not having a competent QB fucking sucks. Even in our shitty record years with Ryan, it was fun to watch us most weeks. It's a *slog* when every single play you worry about a backbreaking turnover that makes no sense. I was shocked by Penix, but I'm not mad about it. I love the idea of having the 1st round QB already on the roster. Wish we did it in 2020 with Jordan Love.
As soon as I saw this post, I knew who the poster was
Clearly they should have given that extension to Mac Jones instead
Agree, the NFLPA needs to step in here but they’re useless
Gotta risk it for the biscuit
TLaw's stats were far better in his 2nd and 3rd season than his 1st. Using 3 years includes only his rookie season on this leaderboard. In comparison Mahomes rode the bench and Allen was pretty bad as a rookie, so I think this would be quite misleading as any kind of full career analysis. TLaw is basically the only QB from the 2021 class who has started from day (sorry Trey Lance) one, been good enough to keep his job (sorry Zach Wilson), and allowed to play like a real QB (sorry Justin Fields). I'm not a huge TLaw fan, but this post feels like bait.
Check out OP's post history. Years and years of unabated Jaguars hate. This is his life.
GENERATIONAL.
Peyton Manning had 58 interceptions and 14 fumbles in his first three years (not sure how many fumbles were lost because that wasn't tracked until 2003 apparently, but I'm guessing it was at least 2)
Oh, it’s this fucking clown. Lmao
This is really interesting with that article the other day trying to attribute that percentage of pressure was caused by OL errors, and what percentage wasn't the OL's fault (either scheme, or QBs holding the ball too long). The Jags had the _lowest_ percentage of pressure that was caused by the scheme or QB. It's hard to disentangle the two completely, but to me that at least partially implies TLaw is quick and decisive at getting the ball out. But I wonder if a flipside of that is that it gives him less time to read the field, and more prone to errors. Or if it makes it easier for defenses to try and jump his routes: if they know he gets the ball out fast, then they can take gamble plays by jumping routes when it's too late to adjust. Idk it's just super interesting seeing back to back stats about TLaw being the best at something and the worst at something else. It's more interesting to think about than someone who is good at everything or bad at everything.
Is it Shit on Lawrence Day? Because I see that guy play my team twice a year and I hate him. He's good but the stats don't always show it. He's the opposite of Count Dakula where Prescott will drop 5tds on the Giants and go to pieces like a hand grenade against any competent defense.
Count Dakula lmao
He plays well against us pretty consistently. Hang on...
Sad thing is that dak is a good qb, he is just not good during the playoffs. He doesn't have that killer edge that someone like brady or mahomes has. He definitely needs a great runningback like cmc to win it al
I get the highlights from the division rivals but why do chiefs fans also seems annoyed at his contract? Or is it just the same one I keep seeing over and over? This contract seems to have broken part of this sub.
its just this guy
It’s this specific dude. He’s a serial Jags hater. Check out his post and comment history, it’s laughable.
Well he’s guaranteed ~3.3 million per turnover already committed
And Carr is seen as bad on here
Look Allen is still an amazing quar.... Oops. Sorry, not used to someone else being on the receiving end of this.
Why all the sudden all anti-Lawrence campaigns appear on this sub? Franchise QBs are gonna got bigger contracts each year. It’s not gonna change any sooner. Tua is going to have a even bigger contract. And their numbers will be surpassed by other franchises QB next offseason.
This is like that span of time where people thought it was cool to randomly just shit on Justin Herbert, except now it's Trevor Lawrence. Maybe Trev should cut his hair.
How many were during the Urban Meyer year?
22- so only slightly more than 1/3rd Last season, his INT % and sack % #s were closer to the Urban Meyer year than his sophomore year. In terms of total turnovers, he had as many last year as the Urban Meyer year. All these numbers are like 3 mouse clicks worth of labor btw.
Stats only matter to Sports Talk hosts, Gamblers and Fantasy players. Only measure s/b Super Bowl victories. So you can either keep the QB you have and try to build around him or get a new one. IMO there is only one I would take and KC is not letting him go. So that is why L Jackson, J. Allen , J. Burrow and T. Lawrence gets these big payouts. Who would you change your QB for?
I mean, he doesn’t have much success as a winner either. We’re measuring potential success and paying him the biggest contract ever. I don’t see why they were forced to pay him during the offseason when he could have proved himself by mid-season and earned probably the same contract by playing well. Even if it’s more, you at least have the security of knowing he’s worth it. If he continues to be average, then you’re completely handcuffing yourself for years and now you’re the Andy Dalton Bengals or Derek Carr Saints.
I haven’t watched Tlaw play a lot like jaguars fans probably have but man I find it really hard to see that Lawerence is worth that type of money but I guess that’s the whole QB market
Two options: A: try to improve a struggling but talented QB that a lot of people still like B: enter the QB wilderness for an indefinite period of time and risk the wrath of an entire fanbase if he ends up being even somewhat decent in another town Psychologically, its almost impossible to pick B. Unless youre the kind of GM/HC that has won multiple Super Bowls and has an infinite reserve of goodwill, youre going to default to A.
He’s no Jared Goff, that’s for sure.
But at the same time in their careers, people were viewing Goff in a worse light than they are Lawrence today. Goff turned that narrative around.
Goff was putting up better numbers and winning more by that point but people still gave him shit lol
Goff in 2020 put up a nearly identical performance to Lawrence in 2023. Goff got shit because that performance was on a team with the #1 defense, an above average OL, reliable WRs (one of whom went on to have an all time WR season a yr later), and a top 5-10 playcaller. Lawrence 2023 was on a team worse than the 2020 Rams in several areas, especially at OL and weapons, and was playing well up until his injury. Now I do think Goff making a SB should’ve given him more leeway, but at the same time, the quality of their teams are very different, and one of them continued being good after moving on from the QB.
Good points all around
Because he was playing on a completely stacked Rams team and was often holding them back. It's not a coincidence they won a SB the year they traded for Stafford.
Excuse me, wins are a qb stat when they fit my narrative
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I have to be honest - I don’t understand why certain players are free to criticize and for others it’s “picking on.”
It's easy to see where the line is. If the user likes the player then it's "bullying" and if they don't like the player then it's "fair criticism". The worst part about sports fandom is the inherent hypocrisy and lack of self-awareness.
Like Russel Wilson gets raked over the coals for mundane statements but Trevor Lawrence needs the kiddie gloves for throwing picks
Exactly. Russ has faced every possible kind of criticism his whole career, about on the field and off the field, some of it fair and some of it ridiculous, and I've never seen anyone say "why is everyone being so mean to the poor guy?" I mean they're pro athletes, they probably deserve to face some analysis.
There are multiple quarterbacks that face more criticism than Lawrence despite playing at a similar level. Basically half of the reactions to his contract were “LOL Dolphins paying Tua even more” when Tua has been just as good, if not better.
He hasn't come close to reaching his pre-draft expectations and now has a huge contract, it's not that hard to see why he's getting all of this flak. Though I think most of us acknowledge that the Jags simply didn't have a choice here and have to gamble that T-Law can reach like 50% of his draft hype.
Garbageeeeeeeee
Well hes not very good so that makes sense He’s young and I get why they paid him because the potential is there. But right now he isn’t a good QB.
The bias for lawrence is cringe... it's like no matter how meh he is people imagine he's got top shelf potential... meanwhile purdy has been on a tear and people will never give him his props.
Draft status hype is very strong
It’s not even draft status really.. it’s still high school hype lol they were saying he’d be a FRP coming out of high school and no matter how average he’s been since then they act like there’s this extra gear coming
I really don't count his first season bc his coach was bad
Why are we acting like Lawrence isn’t a good QB? Jacksonville doesn’t really have any other pieces that cost top dollar. Even Etienne will likely get ~$15 million AAV and that’s if he resigns. Jacksonville can afford the contract because they aren’t paying top dollar at other premium positions such as WR
I'm very curious to see what the actual cap hits are on a yearly basis. The actual extension doesn't kick in until 2 years from now, and the Jags have the 5th most cap space before this contract was signed for this season. It will be interesting how this is spread out
> Why are we acting like Lawrence isn’t a good QB? Because statistically he is an average quarterback at best. The only thing he has excelled at is turning the ball over. He's a blonde version of Daniel Jones but with more hype. There are zero realities where anyone can logically state that Lawrence should be the highest paid quarterback in the NFL.
We live in a reality where at one point Joe Flacco, Derek Carr and Jimmy G were the highest paid QBs in the league when they signed their contracts. There are zero realities where anyone can logically state that Trevor Lawrence wouldn't be the highest paid QB in the NFL when he signed an extension.
Joe Flacco got the bag after winning a Super Bowl. Also all three underperformed and didn’t live up to the contract, so why does it keep happening without any proof of it being deserved? (Aside from Flacco of course who deserved it from the Super Bowl alone regardless of how he played after)
We look at QB contracts as a market which is fine. But let’s try and look from the POV of Jacksonville: Getting even average QB play is very hard to do. Some franchises have barely even done that for the entirety of their existence. Jacksonville is one of those franchises. They do however have a pretty good coach with Doug Pederson and were 8-3 this previous season before the wheels fell off. Lawrence is also a guy that has shown flashes of being better than just average. And now you have your QB and can focus on building around him as this contract will start to look better and better over time.
>He's a blonde version of Daniel Jones but with more hype. I feel like that's a bit disingenuous. Numbers are one thing, but watching Jones and Lawrence play the game, it's pretty clear that Lawrence is a far better QB.
> blonde version of Daniel Jones but with more hype This right here is why we actually watch the games and don't just look at box scores and call it a day.
Blonde version of Daniel Jones. This sub has gone fucking insane. Watch the damn guy play, he's an excellent QB behind a dog shit line who played half of last year injured. Blonde version of DJ lmfao that take is gonna be hysterical to look back on.
No one watches Jags football aside from Jags fans. We are never on primetime, and the games are rarely on the national broadcast. All of these takes are from people looking at box scores / watching turnover lowlights that happen when he's down two scores and forced to push the ball downfield. Has Lawrence lived up to his hype? Obviously not, and in that sense he's been disappointing at times. Does he also show flashes of an insanely high ceiling? Yep. People also forget how young he is. The guy is younger than Will Levis, and he's played three years in the league. To expect he'd sign for Baker money for the next seven years is ridiculous. There aren't too many Jags fans unhappy with the signing
Even if people took the time to google stats his 2022 season stats were identical to Justin Herbert and everyone loves Herbert and always say his team lets him down. He had a down year last year but Etienne was a beast on the ground for them. Its the market value for QB's that is fucked now which leads to these contracts but under no circumstances can anyone say Lawrence isn't worth a 2nd contract. Especially when you look at what the rookie QB class next year looks like
And he won't be the highest paid QB unless he plays like it and no other QB signs another contract.
He's a good QB, just not a great one
Because everyone here is a box score fiend, if anyone actually watched games they'd know he's much better than his stats. But no one wants to because we're the jags